Action Markers ceases Operation!

[Rocp15126]

THis bites!

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1013752


"As of May 23, 2005 Action Markers has ceased operation. While we regret having to make this decision, we are doing so for several reasons.

As many of you who read this will know, paintball has grown from its humble, grass-roots beginnings to a very popular activity. Along the way there have been many pioneers who have strongly influenced the design of modern-day markers as well as the style of modern-day play.

Anyone that knows the history of paintball will realize that it has been individuals and very small companies that have innovated all of the features of the modern marker. As with any market it was inevitable that once the paintball market reached a certain monetary threshold large companies would step in to reap the profits. Unfortunately, unlike the smaller companies and individuals who loved and actively played the game, the large companies have only one goal - to maximize profits for their shareholders.

Over the last several years the paintball market has become owned by a few large companies. It is also embroiled in what appears to be an endless loop of litigation. Practically every major company is suing, or threatening to sue, someone. As a result we have come to the conclusion that it is now virtually impossible for a small company like Action Markers to ever penetrate the market enough to be profitable. Because of all of the litigation, or threat of litigation, it wouldn’t matter how good of a marker someone comes up with. Unless you have the time and money to fully protect it with a patent you can bet that one of the large companies is going to sue you over it. Unfortunately too many times it doesn’t matter who is in the right - it simply comes down to who has the most money to fight it. With major companies like K2, Brass Eagle, etc. in the ring no small company has any chance of fighting them.

On this page you will find a link to the most recent “threat” letter from the attorneys representing K2/Brass Eagle/WGP/….. (One of paintball’s pioneers, Glenn Palmer will definitely want to read it).

"threat letter"

As is most often the case it’s not necessarily the “best” products that win. It is the “best marketed” products that win. For example, in our opinion (and the opinion of many people we have talked to) the Autococker (© ® K2/WGP) is a technically inferior and obsolete design by today’s speedball standards. (We know that this statement will anger some of the diehard ‘Cocker fans out there but it is an indisputable fact that the ‘Cocker (© ® K2/WGP) cannot match the performance of a modern Electro-pneumatic like the Diadem.) Yet it still enjoys a certain amount of success due to the “hype” and “marketing” surrounding it.

Most people who have bought AM products are quite impressed with them. Our Illusion marker, for example, consistently ranks as one of the best in the world. Many people and sites have ranked it superior to the Sniper (© ® K2/WGP). The Illusion’s internals are unique to any other pump marker, yet K2/WGP is determined to make sure we can’t produce it.

So that our markers could live on, we recently approached Tippmann Sports, K2/WGP, and National Paintball to see if any of them would be interested in acquiring AM. Unfortunately, none of them were. In fact, the result of a recent meeting with K2/WGP was the threat letter that is posted here.

The big corporations will capture the customers. However, we will always have the satisfaction of knowing that the AM Diadem is technically superior to, and out-performs most markers on the market. And it does so at a fraction of the cost of the big-name electro-pneumatics.

As we said earlier, it’s not always the “best” products that win it’s the “best marketed” that win. We can’t match their marketing budget and no small company will ever be able to.

Now that most of the small guys have either been acquired or driven out of the market it will be interesting to see where paintball goes from here. One thing is almost a certainty – new innovations will be few and far between. But don’t despair - there will still be plenty of hype and superficial cosmetic changes to keep you coming back to them.

We don’t want to leave our loyal customers hanging. For those people that own AM products, we will continue to supply spare parts until our existing inventories are depleted. We will also continue to provide out of warranty repairs on a time and material basis. Warranty claims for manufacturing defects will be supported - provided the marker is still in warranty. Spare parts can be ordered on-line at actionmarkers.com. We will soon be disconnecting our phone lines. In the future all contact with AM will need to be done via email – [email protected].

Over the last several years we have made many, many new friends and have really enjoyed the ride. Unfortunately we got to the party a little late. We sincerely appreciate all of the support that so many of you gave us and truly regret having to leave the market.

We wish all of our ‘baller friends the best.


The Staff of Action Markers, Inc."

[quik]

Oh well nobody really bought their stuff anyways.

[stop whining buy a mag]

A guy at my local field plays with a Diadem every once in a while and I'm actually impressed with it. Everything they said in their letter was true. The large companies control the paintball market.

[FlawleZ]

Interesting. It's kind of sad but it's the cold, hard truth.


...it’s not necessarily the “best” products that win. It is the “best marketed” products that win.

That sounds familiar...

[DiSoRdeR]

Sad news to hear, always loved Illusions. Im not enjoying what Paintball has become...

[minimag03]

I can't believe Bud is dumb enough to think Palmer will not do something.

[Kevmaster]

Durn...so all 8 people who own Action Markers will no longer have a company to suppor them.... eh

[Soopa Villain17]

:( i friggen hate smart parts and k2 , they suck, all they do is ruin paintball with there greed :(

[vonort]

Love my Sentinel. And the Illusion I had was a very nice marker. Just not my style, I prefer the phantom. AM made some good equipment. Unfortanately, ignorance is bliss in the paintball community. And if it don't say SP or WGP people think its not worth having. Oh well,, its only a matter of time before AGD is making the same kind of announcement. But thats ok.. cause I'm sure there will be plenty of ignorant people to post comments like.. "oh well nobody bought thier guns" or "oh boy all 8 people won't have a place to buy from"

[Lohman446]

Threat letter link

http://www.actionmarkers.com/amNews/K2%20Letters/WGP%20threat%20letter%205-6-05.pdf

I find this line most disturbing

"As your attorney will advise you intellectual property litigation is very costly and time consuming"

Oh.. so basically, we have the money, you will bow down to us. Right or wrong doesn't matter, because you can't afford to fight us over a design that we might have stolen in the first place. I hope Glen Palmer puts a boot up.... :D

[buzzboy]

Think thats bad read the fax. It makes the head dudes at WGP sound like :cuss: holes

[p8ntball72]

sounds like what TOM did with AGD.

"We don’t want to leave our loyal customers hanging. For those people that own AM products, we will continue to supply spare parts until our existing inventories are depleted. We will also continue to provide out of warranty repairs on a time and material basis. Warranty claims for manufacturing defects will be supported - provided the marker is still in warranty. Spare parts can be ordered on-line at actionmarkers.com. We will soon be disconnecting our phone lines. In the future all contact with AM will need to be done via email – [email protected].

Over the last several years we have made many, many new friends and have really enjoyed the ride. Unfortunately we got to the party a little late. We sincerely appreciate all of the support that so many of you gave us and truly regret having to leave the market.


BTW... what ever happend to Dave Zupe? :rolleyes:

[teufelhunden]

AM crapped out, if they though they were right, they'd have fought. Apparently, though, they didn't think they could win in court.

And for the 34u5636583645863124856238547234th time, everybody wanted paintball to get big, but didn't want big business to follow. Get used to it. This is what comes with you wanting your little tight knit game on tv, in the spotlight, with money to be made.

[spantol]

Yes, because IP litigation is free when you're right...

Small company == meager cash flow == easy win for K2


AM crapped out, if they though they were right, they'd have fought. Apparently, though, they didn't think they could win in court.
.

[SpecialBlend2786]

dammit.

AM Illusions are some of the best pumps around. or should i say were some of the best pumps around :(

[Fred]

wow...

I'm not suprised that AM is closing their doors, I'm suprised at the ignorant bashing some people are giving them...

AM has produced some excellent pieces of equipment, their customer service has been far above average, and their people have been a hell of a lot friendlier and open to input from the average paintball player than most I've met in my 6 years playing.

They shined bright before they went out.

---Fred

[onedude36]

I expected a better reaction to this from AO. This is another niche company that went down the drain. AGD is a niche company. I hope AGD doesn't do the same.

[Lohman446]

Those complaining about AO... I have a question

Who has been knocking AM? One comment that they thought they should have fought it out. Thats not knocking AM guys, thats an opinion and one that has some reasoning behind it. Do I agree? No I don't but I don't question the valid logic that can get there. Get over it, get off your superiority horse, or ride it somewhere else.. please ;)

[WARPED1]

The large companies control the paintball market.
Welcome to the real world of business.

[CoolHand]

IMO, this is a way worse abuse of the system than SP ever came up with.

SP really did have the patent. Be it right or wrong how they got it, they really did have one.

Now, WGP/BrassEagle/K2 don't have anything at all. Nothing. A very weak "trade dress" angle, and even that is debatable. They strong armed them plain and simple.

"Oh, you're right, but it might be veeeeerrrrry expensive to prove that. Maybe you should just do like we say so you don't get hurt."

Sounds like something you'd hear on the Sopranos.

Like my pops says "F____ 'em if they can't take a joke."

I've never like Worr's cockers anyway, no reason to start now . . . . . .

[magmonkey]

there comes a time when you can't fight... these are peoples lives that could be possibly ruined in court room over what, the right to keep working 100 hour work weeks to get by in paintball..
another small company bites the dust... and I count the days until I am hit with some of the crap flying around this industry.... I used to think this was fun

[Nexus]

That's too bad. I didn't even know that company existed. They look like good guns too . . . They look like something I would have considered buying if I didn't buy a mag.

[Creative Mayhem]

WOW.. this sucks.. as much as I hate to admit it, this is the way of things and there will soon be very few companies making stuff, and of course the blind mases will bow down to them and fork over the $$ to them for their stuff. AM made some great stuff, I own a AMP Illusion and love it, the Diadem that I had the oppotunity to use was good as well, its a shame that I never got a chance to buy one.

[AGD]

Sad but true statement from a company that really tried. I feel for them, and I too am surprised at the amount of "so what" attitude on the board.

RIP

AGD

[WARPED1]

Sad but true statement from a company that really tried. I feel for them, and I too am surprised at the amount of "so what" attitude on the board.

RIP

AGDIt is sad and too bad. But it's the circle of life, the stragglers get picked off. It's not "so what", it's "there's nothing we can do, that's life" attitude, though some have been "so what?". But not me, I almost bought a Sentinel backup gun.

[Lohman446]

IMO, this is a way worse abuse of the system than SP ever came up with.

SP really did have the patent. Be it right or wrong how they got it, they really did have one.

Now, WGP/BrassEagle/K2 don't have anything at all. Nothing. A very weak "trade dress" angle, and even that is debatable. They strong armed them plain and simple.

"Oh, you're right, but it might be veeeeerrrrry expensive to prove that. Maybe you should just do like we say so you don't get hurt."

Sounds like something you'd hear on the Sopranos.

Like my pops says "F____ 'em if they can't take a joke."

I've never like Worr's cockers anyway, no reason to start now . . . . . .

Keep in mind that I have a very limited knowledge of the workings of the companies in paintball. I have no inside knowledge that the executives and owners of course do. But as Coolhand pointed out, this is basically what they did... its in the threat letter basically. What's next, going after every closed bolt marker because it resembles an autococker. I hope this upsets Palmer enough that he looks into the same "trade dress" infringement angle. As has been noted repeatedly, this is sometimes what happens in big business. Its not the only way though - think of Kimbers domination of the market over Colt when they entered... small companies can still make it, and grow.

I agree with Coolhand, this is just stupid. Paintballs changed. The courts are going to be making more and more decisions, and I expect we are not far from them making decisions that directly influence our rules as well. We're growing big boys, we have it all. Cheating on the field, lawsuits in the manufacturers, and maybe if we try hard enough drug hearings in frotn of Congress. Then we'll be the big time.

[magmonkey]

there is nothing we can do????? there is a TON we can do, the power in paintball is not with these scumbags.. it is in your back pocket.

anyone who wants to discuss how to make a change feel free to email me

[email protected]

Tom, please drop me a line either by email or 413-883-4389


Alan
DC

[RRfireblade]

RIP AM



Man, I hate to see the little guy get stomped for NO good reason.

Just an FYI based on my own information, an average Patent defense case starts at around $25,000 just to get in the door. Minor complexities can take it to $50,000 in the blink of an eye.

If you lose for whatever reason, on top of all previous expenses, you become liable for what ever damages the Plaintiff sees fit to ask for retroactive to the date of said Patent filing.

If you win....

You get nothing in most cases.

In situations like the AM case, it's like David VS Golith except Golith has the rock andf sling as well as the size and strength.

What would 'You' do?

[shartley]

And as it has been said…. Now for the rest of the story:

Originally posted by AM-Steve
A quick explanation.

For one thing I want everyone to know that the decision that we made today was not a snap decision. We have looked at every possibility to keep going that we could think of, and in the end we have regretfully found that none of them are viable for us. This is not something that we like to say at all. Action Markers has pretty much been my life, for the last 4 ½ years. Everyone that has worked for Action Markers has put in more effort than I could reasonably expect of a person. All of the employees present and former, are exceptional people that have been great to work with.

And now some action explanation. First off Action Markers has not been making money. Our policy was to always price things as low as possible. We focused our efforts into giving the absolute best value or the dollar possible. The employees that have worked at Action Markers have dedicated their time and talents for the love of paintball and their love of the company, and a little bit of money… But no-one was getting rich off of Action Markers. The upper management and owners of Action Markers have not received a single paycheck. It is expensive and hard to get a company going in today’s business world, and we all understood that coming into the game. However, there is always the hope for that ‘one day’ when all of the effort finally pays off. All the years of spending money and time in developing new products and getting them to work the way that we want them to will eventually be rewarded as the new product takes off. The Diadem has been selling fantastically (not near enough to pay off development fees, but it has been doing wonderful – selling in nearly every state and multiple foreign countries as well. )

Recently we have finally allowed ourselves to see the inevitable: that Action Markers was, unfortunately, doomed before it even started. WGP is not the end of Action Markers, for all of their threats and harassment, they did not, singly, shut us down. What happened was that they were the first, of what would definitely have been many, company to show us the ugly side of the business. And they led us to know what we now believe: That to get a business started in the Paintball industry you need to budget for three things 1) development cost of getting a new product made 2) production cost of getting the product mass produced and 3) budgeted legal expenses for the inevitable lawsuits that will immediately follow.

We were perfectly willing to spend the time and money that it takes on items 1 and 2. Indeed we have spent an huge amount on development and research of our products – specifically to make sure that we do not violate any existing patents or copyrights. Many AM users will tell you of their frustrations at not having cross-compatibility with other existing products. This is because we went into the design phase with the explicit directive that we would make a 100% new product. We would not copy any other product. And we would not violate any known patents. I have a stack of patents that we have looked at that is probably 4-5 inches high. There are a LOT of patents to watch out for.

With this aspect of design under us we proceeded forward. But there is a new reality in this industry. The patent lawsuit. Look at all of the companies fighting in court right now – each day in court with a lawyer can easily represent $10,000 or more (including the research necessary and the supporting staff plus the time that it takes you away from actually producing anything worthwhile at work). Now imagine how hard it is to get a company, that is already operating at a loss, to be able to afford a lengthy court battle. Now how about 2? 3? 4? 5,6,7? There are a lot of companies that are wiling to sue one another over just about anything these days. And the objective is not to win even – read the letter that WGP sent us – look at how much emphasis they put on the COST of the lawsuit. They KNOW that we can’t afford it. And that is what is happening. The big companies know that if they let smaller companies get their products into the market that eventually we will steal market share. The easiest way to fight that is to simply hit them while they are still too small to do anything about it. Most companies will wait until they are actually being affected by the new company – but there is always the eager company with the money to not worry about their own expenses. WGP has enough money behind them that they can afford to pay for a few lawsuits that are not “cost effective”. Better to get it early than wait until it might be a threat to them, is their apparent philosophy.

And again, WGP is not the only company doing this, nor are they the only reason for us being forced to shut down. I receive 1-2 letters from lawyers almost every week – some seeking to help us, some threatening us for one reason or another. WGP has always seemed the most eager to take it to court, and that is why we have shown their letters. But make no mistake, they are not the only company out there doing this.

I regret this decision that we have made – but unfortunately there really is no other choice. I wish you all the best of luck in everything that you do.

Steven Deam Jr.
Take it for what it is worth…. But I see things on this forum as well as others as folks just wanting to see what they want to see, but not seeing the entire truth.

I also think that as time goes by Paintball will be much like the Auto Industry, where most markers are made by a few large companies and then smaller ones will spring up to modify those markers or make after-market parts for them. And to get to that point most of the smaller companies will be either eaten up by larger ones, or they will close their doors for any number of reasons. It is the cycle of industry. And players want what that industry can provide for them, but are unwilling to accept all the consequences that come with it.

My heart goes out to AM and I pray they get on with life in a smooth and fairly pain free manner. But most businesses fail, and often times there is no clear good guy or bad guy. And it looks like it was only a matter of time before they closed their doors anyways, for many reasons.

[PsychoBaller]

Stupid Big Paintball Companys... obviously you need to make money to stay in business, but when does the insanity of making a dollar cease?

All i see are PB relationships between the companies continuously ceasing, and more money being made by one side and such.... bad relations, high tensions. yada yada

-da "Retreat back to the woods" baller

TIme for Scenario and oldschool ball to come back into play.

[hitech]

I hope this upsets Palmer enough that he looks into the same "trade dress" infringement angle.


As your attorney will advise you, intellectual property litigation is very costly and time consuming.

Glenn doesn't have near enough resources to battle them either. :(

[hitech]

But most businesses fail, and often times there is no clear good guy or bad guy.

There is in this case. I KNOW for an absolute fact that WGP did NOT invent the working mechanism that became the autococker.

[Lohman446]

Most businesses fail to show profit for the first three years of operation.
Most of the time it takes about seven years to make the initial investment back.

Just some guidelines for those thinking of businesses. Obvioulsy these are "standard" business models and need not apply to everything.

[shartley]

There is in this case. I KNOW for an absolute fact that WGP did NOT invent the working mechanism that became the autococker.
And I don’t think they are only going after them for that. Again, folks can read it all and make up their own minds. But most of the time we see folks reading it all and only seeing what they want to see.

WGP is not the only reason AM is closing their doors. There are plenty of people out there that don’t even like AM, nor some of the decisions they have made over the years. I have heard people complain about AM as a company. However, we are now in a time where it is popular to vilify large companies and put small companies up on some glorified pedestal as if they can do no wrong (unless you don’t like the owner) and if they go out of business (even if they admit they were not making any money) blame everyone but them.

This is not saying I agree with what K2/WGP has done, but that even if they had not done it AM was on shaky ground as it was. And none of that had anything to do with any other company, but their own. So no, I don’t buy it as this having a clear “good guy” or “bad guy” either. Many things came together to put AM in the position they found themselves in, not just K2/WGP sending them threatening letters. And it was not a sudden thing, it has been building up for some time.

I don’t wish to debate the issue, and will not. People will see things differently, such is life. And at the end of the day AM is still closing their doors and paintball will go on.

…. with all do respect… me.

[hitech]

I don’t buy it as this having a clear “good guy” or “bad guy” either...

We just have a different idea of what is right and wrong. K2 is wrong, based on my ideals of right and wrong. That is regardless of whether they would have remained in business. If someone is teetering on the edge, if you give them a push, however small, it is wrong.

[Lohman446]

Unfortunatly we have gone over an edge. We had companies (even SP) that were becoming the "big" paintball companies - they had started as the "little" paintball companies. Now companies like K2 have stepped in, and those making the calls for WGP and Tippman (whoever bought Tippman) are no longer those that "grew up" with paintball. I think we are going to start to see major changes in business, league politics, and the sport as a whole as these mega-companies exert more and more influence.

[shartley]

We just have a different idea of what is right and wrong. K2 is wrong, based on my ideals of right and wrong. That is regardless of whether they would have remained in business. If someone is teetering on the edge, if you give them a push, however small, it is wrong.
Whoa now….

I did not say I thought what K2 was doing was “right”. In fact I do not. But I do see it as a part of normal big business (and even sometimes small business). And I can cry injustice to high heaven till my lungs burst but it will not change things. So I don’t.

What I do is identify how business works and try to avoid things that can negatively affect my business.

So to say we have different ideas of what is right and wrong could not be farther from the truth. And I would kindly like to make that crystal clear.

[hitech]

And I don’t think they are only going after them for that. Again, folks can read it all and make up their own minds. But most of the time we see folks reading it all and only seeing what they want to see.


I do. And I'm not reading anything into it. I read the letter than Glenn sent to K2/WGP. I read the letter K2/WGP sent to Action Markers. Since they referred to intellectual property and markers, it seems clear to me. :D

[Lohman446]

If it pushed AM over the edge or not is not the issue, at least to me - from my very limited understanding with or without K2 AM was done. They had reached a point where there needed to be a return on investment that was not there. It appears, from the wording of the letter, that seeking a buyer may have been part of what lead to the threat letter

The letter that K2 sent was wrong. It was bullying and it was bullying over intellectual property rights that many people beleive are not even theres. It was further insulting and dismissive to Glenn Palmer - without whom WGP may arguably not exist as it does today.

Italicized = ninja edit :ninja:

[WARPED1]

there is nothing we can do????? there is a TON we can do, the power in paintball is not with these scumbags.. it is in your back pocket.

anyone who wants to discuss how to make a change feel free to email me

[email protected]

Tom, please drop me a line either by email or 413-883-4389


Alan
DC26 thousand members on AO can't do a single thing, unless a couple of you win the lottery and can battle K2.

[Lohman446]

26 thousand members on AO can't do a single thing, unless a couple of you win the lottery and can battle K2.


If you have the facilities you can make a commerative marker, charge a bunch for it, and market it as "flipping the finger" towards K2. Like a FUK2 commemerative Diadem. Sometimes marketing involves making people beleive that buying your product is so anti-establishment that that in itself makes it cool.

Thats not meant as much of a jab as it sounds like to those who follow it btw... there was just no way to say it toned down.

[Muzikman]

26 thousand members on AO can't do a single thing, unless a couple of you win the lottery and can battle K2.

AO alone could not do anything except educate the average paintball player.

The Internet is a powerful tool if used right and I think as long as you can spread the word, it will get out to the non Internet folk.

[bound for glory]

"oh well, nobody bought there stuff anyway" :tard: nice opinion. moron.

[ApexAZ]

AM crapped out, if they though they were right, they'd have fought. Apparently, though, they didn't think they could win in court.

And for the 34u5636583645863124856238547234th time, everybody wanted paintball to get big, but didn't want big business to follow. Get used to it. This is what comes with you wanting your little tight knit game on tv, in the spotlight, with money to be made.

You can't win a court battle if you can't afford the fee's.

[SlartyBartFast]

Anyone have links to the court decisions in WGP's favour?

I can't find them on Google.

AM's last knee jerk coward response was similar. Just because they threatened, doesn't mean you shut down.

They could still be blowing hot air. I thought the previous suits were for use of the Autococker or Cocker names.

[Lohman446]

Anyone have links to the court decisions in WGP's favour?

I can't find them on Google.

AM's last knee jerk coward response was similar. Just because they threatened, doesn't mean you shut down.

They could still be blowing hot air. I thought the previous suits were for use of the Autococker or Cocker names.



Just an FYI based on my own information, an average Patent defense case starts at around $25,000 just to get in the door. Minor complexities can take it to $50,000 in the blink of an eye.

If you lose for whatever reason, on top of all previous expenses, you become liable for what ever damages the Plaintiff sees fit to ask for retroactive to the date of said Patent filing.

If you win....

You get nothing in most cases.


Slarty, you understand why I disagree with you, I don't see where they had a lot of options, not without further, sizeable investment into a company that after four years was not showing a profit. I think they were trying to sell anyways, if you read there letter, and approaching K2 may have been a catalyst to this last letter

[WARPED1]

AO= 26,0125
Ion Owners= 386
Shocker Owners= 8,591
Nerve Owners= 394
PBReview= 111,123
PBNation= 100kish?(temp banned for having an opinion and actually knowing something)
New England PB League= 1135
PBForum= 27,614
Equals 409,368 out of an average 10 million players a year, and some of those members belong to all those forums(like me). Even if every single person donated a dollar, that wouldn't be enough to even pay for a lawyer to take your phone call for 5 minutes.
You can write online words and articles all you want, it will not matter no matter what! An online petition will not matter. The only thing that really matters is money. Can you afford to battle the big companies? If not, close and move out of the way. It's to bad it's like that, but that's the way it is. No major company is going to listen to 400k whining internet 12 year olds(a lot of posters are only 12-`16 years old) complaining that WGP is a bully makes absolutely no difference, so quit your complaining!(you in the vernacular, not any one in particular).

[CoolHand]

Anyone have links to the court decisions in WGP's favour?

I can't find them on Google.

AM's last knee jerk coward response was similar. Just because they threatened, doesn't mean you shut down.

They could still be blowing hot air. I thought the previous suits were for use of the Autococker or Cocker names.

What you are not seeing is the other side of the coin.

What if they aren't just blowing smoke? What if they really do file suit?

You can't just say "Whoa! I see you're serious. Now, I quit."

'Cause by then it is too late. You are going to incur the cost of court, whether you wanted to fight or not. By then, you will loose, AND go bankrupt.

If you don't have the funds to fight, then you gotta assume that they will follow through, because once you are served, you have to fight. No do overs, no deals (that don't cost a lot of money anyway), and no way out.

Read the letter again, they are not talking a simple cease and desist here, they are talking full up payment of retroactive royalties, punitive damages, and all lawyer and court costs. That's enough money to break anyone's will fight (and leave a pile in their shorts), 'cause if you loose, its not just like you go out of business, you get to spend the entire rest of your life paying the bastards off. Not to mention all kinds of other nasty injunctions and limitations that could be levied on you at the sole discretion of the malice of the judge and opposing counsel.

Not for me, no thank you.

[teufelhunden]

You can't win a court battle if you can't afford the fee's.


A business like AM would have more than sufficient collateral to secure a loan.

[Lohman446]

A business like AM would have more than sufficient collateral to secure a loan.

Remember that I have pointed out that I think AM was on there way out anyways, this just may have sped things along. Take the situation

1) You have been in business about 4.5 years. You have made VERY minor inroads into the market place. You're flagship marker is selling, but not recouping all of its R&D. Worse yet your "cheap tournament grade marker" has just been undercut by a competitor. A competitor who had the advantage of a rule change in PSP that they may have helped develop.

2) You are not making a profit, the owners, and investors, have gone without profit for this time. You have accepted this as normal business and hoped it would get better. It has not yet. The Diadem did not sell remarkably new, and now you are looking at needing to "redevlop" to stay current.

3) You may be seeking to sell the business now, for other reasons, as such you seek buyers such as K2 and others.

4) K2 now sends you a letter threatening legal action (again).

5) You can fork out another 25-50K or more in legal fees to TRY to prove them wrong. You are right, but the legal system being what it is you may not win. If you do win you can continue business but are out the fees, if you loose you are out the legal fees, punitive damages, past damages, court costs, and your most admired (arguably) marker (the illussion) is now subject to licensing fees or not being produced.

What would you do?

[spantol]

And a business like K2 has more than enough cash on hand to drag the fight out long enough to burn through said loan.

Your insight into AM's financial situation is much appreciated, though.


A business like AM would have more than sufficient collateral to secure a loan.

[Doc Nickel]

[...]
Equals 409,368 out of an average 10 million players a year, and some of those members belong to all those forums(like me).

-I'd just like to add a bit of clarification, in that I'd wager you're off by perhaps as much as an order of magnitude.

For example, AO may have 26,000 names registered, but I'd bet the list of active members- those who read AO at least once a week, whether or not they post- is down in the hundreds.

Same with PBNation- they may well have a hundred thousand names registered, but again, I'd bet the number of active members is perhaps two or three thousand at best.

And, as you noted, many active types are members of more than one board. Last I checked, I think I'd registered with twenty or thirty myself.

Us 'online enthusiast' players are simply a tiny, tiny fraction of the playing public.

Doc.

[WARPED1]

-I'd just like to add a bit of clarification, in that I'd wager you're off by perhaps as much as an order of magnitude.

For example, AO may have 26,000 names registered, but I'd bet the list of active members- those who read AO at least once a week, whether or not they post- is down in the hundreds.

Same with PBNation- they may well have a hundred thousand names registered, but again, I'd bet the number of active members is perhaps two or three thousand at best.

And, as you noted, many active types are members of more than one board. Last I checked, I think I'd registered with twenty or thirty myself.

Us 'online enthusiast' players are simply a tiny, tiny fraction of the playing public.

Doc.
Actually, that was my point! Thanks for clarifying Doc! :)

[SlartyBartFast]

'Cause by then it is too late. You are going to incur the cost of court, whether you wanted to fight or not. By then, you will loose, AND go bankrupt.

Ceasing operations and going bankrupt amount to the same thing.

If you setup the company correctly, you could probably turn it into a shell with nothing in it if the case was brought to court.

If the alternative is shutting down, what have you got to lose?

[CoolHand]

Ceasing operations and going bankrupt amount to the same thing.

If you setup the company correctly, you could probably turn it into a shell with nothing in it if the case was brought to court.

If the alternative is shutting down, what have you got to lose?

Being held personally responsible for damages incurred.

Unless you have had a lawyer set up an ironclad corporation, chances are very good that any baddness that goes down, will end up getting pinned on you personally. A simple LLC will not save you from this kind of thing.

In that case, you've got the chance to loose everyting you own, not just your company.

And also, ceasing operation does not = bankrupt, as you can liquidate the assets of the business and recoupe a lot of the loss, if caught early enough. If you loose a judgment, and all you loose are the companies assets, you could still be out a great deal of money, which you would not have lost otherwise.

There is always something to loose.

[BigEvil]

Where does all of this madness end? It will get to the point that NO ONE will want to manufacture ANYTHING, let alone make any kind of capitol investments.

[shartley]

Where does all of this madness end? It will get to the point that NO ONE will want to manufacture ANYTHING, let alone make any kind of capitol investments.
Don’t worry, that will never happen.

[ultralight]

AO= 26,0125
Ion Owners= 386
Shocker Owners= 8,591
Nerve Owners= 394
PBReview= 111,123
PBNation= 100kish?(temp banned for having an opinion and actually knowing something)
New England PB League= 1135
PBForum= 27,614
Equals 409,368 out of an average 10 million players a year, and some of those members belong to all those forums(like me). Even if every single person donated a dollar, that wouldn't be enough to even pay for a lawyer to take your phone call for 5 minutes.
You can write online words and articles all you want, it will not matter no matter what! An online petition will not matter. The only thing that really matters is money. Can you afford to battle the big companies? If not, close and move out of the way. It's to bad it's like that, but that's the way it is. No major company is going to listen to 400k whining internet 12 year olds(a lot of posters are only 12-`16 years old) complaining that WGP is a bully makes absolutely no difference, so quit your complaining!(you in the vernacular, not any one in particular).

i don't believe he was talking about battling big companies in court. i took it as the more guerilla approach of getting everyone you know to personally boycott a particular company's products. also, just because there are only <400k paintballers on forums doesn't mean that there aren't many many more online, or even in contact with those that are online. everyone knows someone who know someone...etc. not that it will work or even that i support the idea. i was just pointing out the fact that the internet provides you with more communications power than you might think. and there is alot more to paintball online than just the forums.

[WARPED1]

loose.Loose= not tight
Lose means you lost it. ;) :p

[WARPED1]

i don't believe he was talking about battling big companies in court. i took it as the more guerilla approach of getting everyone you know to personally boycott a particular company's products. also, just because there are only <400k paintballers on forums doesn't mean that there aren't many many more online, or even in contact with those that are online. everyone knows someone who know someone...etc. not that it will work or even that i support the idea. i was just pointing out the fact that the internet provides you with more communications power than you might think. and there is alot more to paintball online than just the forums.
Ok, so around 400k people tell 5 more each, so now that's 2 million people out of 10 million. :rolleyes:

[Muzikman]

Ok, so around 400k people tell 5 more each, so now that's 2 million people out of 10 million. :rolleyes:

but 5 million of those 10 Million bought their gun at walmart and never heard of Smart Parts, WGP, or K2...all they know is Brass Eagle.

[dave p]

[QUOTE=WARPED1]No major company is going to listen to 400k whining internet 12 year oldsQUOTE]

actually one company did. Air Gun Designs. Did them no good. The 400k whining kids are part of the whole problem. dont respond warped1, im not listening your on my ignore list. every post youve made on this topic you come off like jerk .

[CoolHand]

Loose= not tight
Lose means you lost it. ;) :p

Damn spell checker failed me again.

I yield up all of my 1 billion ecool points.

Alas, all that time and effort wasted . . . . . . . . .

:rofl:

[joez]

And this is why i have been slowly getting out of paintball over the past year. This is not the same game i started playing so long ago.

[WARPED1]

[QUOTE=WARPED1]No major company is going to listen to 400k whining internet 12 year oldsQUOTE]

actually one company did. Air Gun Designs. Did them no good. The 400k whining kids are part of the whole problem. dont respond warped1, im not listening your on my ignore list. every post youve made on this topic you come off like jerk .
Man, this guy took offense to nothing! I wasn't offending anyone, I was stating my opinion! Close minded fools are the most fun.

but 5 million of those 10 Million bought their gun at walmart and never heard of Smart Parts, WGP, or K2...all they know is Brass Eagle.

More stuff strengthening my opinion, thanks! :)

[Jack & Coke]

f.y.i.

in case you missed it last year... here's the letter that Glenn Palmer sent to the lawyers of K2/WGP regarding their threats to Action Markers:


Originally posted by GP@PPS

June 28, 2004

Trent C. Keisling
Keisling Pieper & Scott PLC
1 East Center Street, suite 217
Fayetteville, Arkansas 72707

Re: Intellectual Property Holdings

Your File No. 012964

Dear Sir:
My name is Glenn Palmer; owner/operator of Palmers Pursuit Shop, which was established in 1987 but has remained a relatively small, service based, operation that also manufactures many products relevant to the situation at hand. Specifically, the auto-cocking, pneumatic system that your client, Worr Games Products, would like for us to believe they have intellectual rights to. In short, I am the one that invented, developed and produced the auto-cocking system, mechanisms and some of the individual components that were adapted for use on/in the Paintball gun now known as the Autococker ™. As such, the true owner of some “valuable intellectual properties”.

After my review of a letter from you to Action Markers, I was thoroughly dismayed by the nefarious nature of its content. While I certainly understand one’s desire to protect their property in this industry, I cannot overlook the fact that your client has long been intentionally and knowingly copying my products and developments, as well as those of several others in and outside of the Paintball industry, thus causing “excessive customer confusion” that can no longer “continue unabated”. Given the present set of circumstances, I find threats of expensive litigation in the Federal Courts, to be utterly reprehensible so I must openly refute all unreasonable claims of “proprietary technologies” and “intellectual property” made by anyone representing or affiliated with the Worr Games Products organization, made for the purpose of creating hardships for others in the business of Paintball. Unfortunately, K2 bought into the same misrepresentations that the folks at WGP have been promoting for about 14 years now, which has in fact brought significant financial loss to me and others.

From my layman’s point of view, it seems that you need to reevaluate your position in regards to the assets that were gained in the acquisition of Worr Games Products Inc. . It may just be that K2 and their new affiliates are actually infringing on MY intellectual properties and might consider this as a demand to cease and desists doing so.

Should you or any of your clients wish to discuss this in greater depth, I can be reached at my place of business between the hours 2:00 and 6:00 PM, Pacific time, most weekdays. See letterhead for contact information. I look forward to your prompt response.

Sincerely,
Glenn E. Palmer

Glenn said they never did respond to him.