My point of view on cheating.

[yakitori]

Just to clear up some confusion to some ppl who either cant read my posts correctly or didnt read them at all.

Here is my point of view on cheating (wiping)

I dont cheat. I dont wipe. I dont like wipers. I make sure wipers get enough paint so they cant wipe. I DO HOWEVER, know that it exists in paintball. Cheating exist in EVERY sport. It IS PART OF ANY GAME. If you fail to recognize that cheating exists and call everyone cheaters and complain about cheating, what does that say about your intelligence. I mean, you call ppl a cheater just cause they recognize that it exists in ANY game, yet you talk about cheating.

When I get shot, I call myself out. I tell the person good shot and ask them how it happened. What move did they make, what was sticking out on my equipment? etc.

I DONT CHEAT. I DONT LIKE CHEATERS.

Thats my point of view on it. It does exists. If saying that cheating exist and recognizing it makes person a cheater, then we are all cheaters. Cause when you post and complain about cheating then you recognize that it exist.

[cdacda13]

I agree with your point of view, and Im stickin to it.

[SlartyBartFast]

So, chill, state your point of view calmly, and don't let your posts degenerate into name calling.

I disagree that cheating CAN be an acceptable part of any game. It's all a question of degree.

[Aslan]

What cheaters never account for are all the people that play by the rules.

Cheaters work off the assumption that everybody can and does do it, that's their justification for their behavior. If they think everybody is wiping, then they'll wipe. The problem is, everybody doesn't wipe...most people don't. :nono: :shooting:

Cheaters also don't like other cheaters...which is ironic. For example, have you ever seen two cheaters standing 10 ft apart shootng each other and wiping? No. One gets hit and wipes, then yells at the other guy for cheating when he does it...they think that's part of the game...trying to get people caught for cheating rather than just not doing it all. :nono: :nono:

And the hardest thing to get through to cheaters...is you NEVER WIN. Never. Every game you play in that you cheat in, you lost because you cheated. Even if you didn't get caught and won a little trophy...it doesn't matter...because you cheated to get it so it's worthless. And that prize you won, you stole it...you're a theif. People steal stuff all the time so you're not alone...but when some guy steals your gun at a paintball field...don't be a baby about it...because you stole it from it's rightful winner to begin with. :nono:

[Tobe2be]

its only cheating if you get caught

[Aslan]

its only cheating if you get caught

It's like putting up a poster...sad really. :confused:

[trains are bad]

I draw a distinction between tournament paintball and rec ball.

In rec ball if there is an honor system present and you can't stick to it you should kill yourself because I would get in trouble for doing it for you.

In a paintball tournament where there is and should not be an honor system present, anything goes. It's only cheating if you get caught. The thing is reffing is so bad at most events, that if everyone went by these rules the game would implode.


Paintball is a joke.

Still waiting for it to either grow up or self destruct.

[MarkM]

Just to clear up some confusion to some ppl who either cant read my posts correctly or didnt read them at all.

Here is my point of view on cheating (wiping)

I dont cheat. I dont wipe. I dont like wipers. I make sure wipers get enough paint so they cant wipe. I DO HOWEVER, know that it exists in paintball. Cheating exist in EVERY sport. It IS PART OF ANY GAME. If you fail to recognize that cheating exists and call everyone cheaters and complain about cheating, what does that say about your intelligence. I mean, you call ppl a cheater just cause they recognize that it exists in ANY game, yet you talk about cheating.

When I get shot, I call myself out. I tell the person good shot and ask them how it happened. What move did they make, what was sticking out on my equipment? etc.

I DONT CHEAT. I DONT LIKE CHEATERS.

Thats my point of view on it. It does exists. If saying that cheating exist and recognizing it makes person a cheater, then we are all cheaters. Cause when you post and complain about cheating then you recognize that it exist.

Whilst I agree with the principle of your thoughts I do have a problem with part of your statement. You state above that you "make sure wipers get enough paint so they can't wipe" well ok if you see the person wipe then yes I see your point but the way it reads is that you will light up everyone which is a form of cheating in itself (by cheating in this way I mean going against the rules of the game and overshooting comes under this section as breaking the rules so by implication it is cheating) So thus you are making an assumption that all are cheats and even then you contradict yourself and say it is part of the game. You can't have it all ways.
I will walk when hit, hand on head or hand in the air (event dependant) and yet I still get hit in the back by over zealous opposition players....wander off slowly arms down and sorry you have it coming since you are not indicating that you are out but I would guess that has been covered more than once or twice before.
Breaking out with your hand across your face says you are preparing to wipe so expect some of that extra love you are talking about above but not all players act like this.

[can'tthink of1]

I draw a distinction between tournament paintball and rec ball.

In rec ball if there is an honor system present and you can't stick to it you should kill yourself because I would get in trouble for doing it for you.

In a paintball tournament where there is and should not be an honor system present, anything goes. It's only cheating if you get caught. The thing is reffing is so bad at most events, that if everyone went by these rules the game would implode.


Paintball is a joke.

Still waiting for it to either grow up or self destruct.

Well said, I agree.

I know cheating is part of the tournament side of paintball, but its just so big compared to other forms of cheating in other sports, and it's just insane how much cheating goes on. And thats what imo, makes tournament paintball a joke to me. I mean, look at the pro's. They are looked up to many, but they cheat non-stop. Thats not something respectable imo. For me, paintball exists a fun hobby where I can go out on a weekend with friends and just have a fun time. However, wiping/playing on has spread to rec speedball, and it really pisses me off. Its like, I know someone is cheating in rec, so I put a couple love shots on them, and then I get *****ed at for overshooting. All this in rec-ball.

But yeah, I'm against cheating, and I don't cheat, but I understand it's in tournament paintball, I just find that the degree its in tournyball is insane.

[CrimsonGhost]

Meh, I have seen more cheaters in Rec ball than on a Tour field.
Just a law of averages...there are more people playing rec than tour.(REAL Tour, not pick up speedball games)
Tour cheating is just more Obvious, you don't have a field full of people all over the place to keep track of.
Think of it as watching a football game , You see the plays and some of the "illegal" stuff that goes on. You don't hear everything and can't see what happen in the pile up.(Hehe thumbs in the EYe and throat ..always amusing )
Pro football has a bajillion refs all over the place watching the Entire field at once.
More eyes, less likely to be cheating ...more likely to get caught.

Paintball Tour Refs are BARELY able to handle the major stuff that does get caught.

Cheat at your own risk and don't cry when you get caught.
Get caught? Suck it up and quit wiping... or ....nah ..nm ...I will leave it at that.

Its a choice...can't handle it ...don't try it.

:cheers:

[Kevmaster]

cheating in rec ball, in my humble opinion, is irreprehensable. its just like pickup basketball..you call your own fouls. its your reputation and character on the line. if thats not enough to get you to play within the rules, i dont want to play with you.

that said, tournaments/real games are different. much like real game basketball, cheating is a CALCULATED risk. you may get caught and get in trouble. You may not. either way, you are doing something to try to get ahead. if you fail, tough luck. if you succede, congrats. 'Dirty' play is in another category, however. Thats not acceptable.

[SpitFire1299]

If your with a group of friends and no one is playing to seriously, Cheating is no big deal. If your in a tournament for money, cheating should get you kicked out. It all depends on the situation because sometimes its fun to shoot someone up when they cheat.

[Eric Cartman]

cheating in rec ball, in my humble opinion, is irreprehensable.

Not be be a spelling and grammer clown, but:
Ir`rep`re`hen´si`ble
a. 1. Not reprehensible; blameless; innocent.
I'm thinkin' you meant:
rep·re·hen·si·ble (rpr-hns-bl)
adj.
Deserving rebuke or censure; blameworthy.

Cheating is always reprehensible.

[Kevmaster]

:)

grazie

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

well then yak, why were you cheating all day when we played... I mean I know I shot you like 50,000 times and you would just go down in the snake and wipe it... I think the ref was helping you too, thats so much bs...

Hah just kidding bud, you played really well and were more than fair and even when the ref called you out you didnt throw a fit or anything, really said alot about you. thanks for all the good games that day. also I think that ref needs to be fired or something he was doing a crappy job, I dunno wtf he was watching but It wasnt paintball.

good post. I feel the same.

[Teamslayer76]

Yak, I completly agree with you. I honestly have never whiped and do call my self out. I did once play a game where a whole team was nearly out and their players were coming back onto to field and shooting at us. Ref of course paid no attention. And the game was 6v11 Teamslayer Vs. Anyone. 1 Guy our "best" and cockiest player got gogged. But we eventually marker all of the other players out at least 2 times.

[can'tthink of1]

If your with a group of friends and no one is playing to seriously, Cheating is no big deal. If your in a tournament for money, cheating should get you kicked out. It all depends on the situation because sometimes its fun to shoot someone up when they cheat.


Only do that if you're with your friends. If you're at a feild in open play or something, someone like me will get pissed off and bonus ball you.

[etjoyride]

Well said Yakitori. I agree with you that cheating is a part of life, and you just need to get past it.

Also I went to the factory today and it was awesome, I'm def. gonna keep playing there :)

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

yes, factory is lovely... maybe ill see you round there. Look for the guy shooting either a red emag or a red ego (when i get it)

[Aslan]

I draw a distinction between tournament paintball and rec ball.

In rec ball if there is an honor system present and you can't stick to it you should kill yourself because I would get in trouble for doing it for you.

In a paintball tournament where there is and should not be an honor system present, anything goes. It's only cheating if you get caught. The thing is reffing is so bad at most events, that if everyone went by these rules the game would implode.


Paintball is a joke.

Still waiting for it to either grow up or self destruct.

So it's okay to cheat if you think the stakes are too high not to? That's rediculous. If you're playing against opponents who wip, you should get to use rubber bullets and require the other team to call themselves out. If they continue to cheat under that system, you should be allowed to use real bullets and let the chips fall where they may. Paintball came about because it was too easy for people to cheat at lazer tag. Now people cheat at paintball so they get lit up...then they whine about getting lit up as if one form of cheating is okay, as long as it's their form of cheating. That's childish. :nono:

[Jaan]

If your with a group of friends and no one is playing to seriously, Cheating is no big deal.
I'm not sure what you meant by that, but yeah ... I'd rather play renegade with friends than anything else for that reason. We don't have to cheat, we just make up different rules, like one shot and you're wounded and can't move (you have 3 seconds to find cover) and the second shot kills you. When we're playing rescue the pilot where if he dies the game is over, or we play where if you get hit you're on the other team. That's fun because you never know who's going to "turn" and you have to always watch your back, instead of the old run and hide behind a bunker and pop up occasionally.

[shartley]

I don’t make a huge deal about cheating, but I would not go so far as to say that since it happens we need to just get over it and ignore it. I think it should always be identified and dealt with. The idea that if something happens regularly we should act as if it is just part of life (or in this case, the game) and go on is simply wrong in my opinion. It fosters an environment that makes cheating (or anything else) acceptable.

I also don’t think cheating in rec-ball is any worse than cheating in tournaments. Why hold recreational players to higher standards than those who profess to be on a higher level (tournament). It is not a calculated risk or strategy to the game, it is cheating on both types of play. If folks are going to excuse cheating by tournament players as them simply trying to get an edge or making a calculated risk (as if it is part of the game like fouling in basketball), then it should be applied to rec play as well. My kids play basketball with their friends at my house and many fouls are not called, and no ones honor or reputation has been tarnished. And we allow cheating in “serious” games, but not in “fun” games? Interesting….

In my opinion if you have to cheat to get ahead, you don’t have “game”. You may win, but you are really the loser, on many levels.

[Kevmaster]

If folks are going to excuse cheating by tournament players as them simply trying to get an edge or making a calculated risk (as if it is part of the game like fouling in basketball), then it should be applied to rec play as well. My kids play basketball with their friends at my house and many fouls are not called, and no ones honor or reputation has been tarnished. And we allow cheating in “serious” games, but not in “fun” games? Interesting….

in a rec basketball game, im not going to make a hard foul on a guy as he goes up in the post. why? its not worth it. i dont want to a) risk hurting a friend b) elevate the game to that level. its just a casual game. will i travel every now and then, prolly. will it be called? prolly not.

but in a real game, damn straight im going to do whatever i can to stop him from scoring. the stakes are higher and it actually has value. if that means hitting his arm while 'going after the ball', and putting him on the line (where hopefully he'll make less than two) im going to do it. its a calculated risk. then again, if i already have four fouls, im not going to--because the juice ISNT worth the squeeze.

cheating, aka breaking hte rules, comes down to risk vs reward. in rec ball, i argue the reward never is great enough to justify cheating. in 'real' games, there are situations where the reward is greater than the risk. thats when its worth it.

[Lohman446]

cheating, aka breaking hte rules, comes down to risk vs reward. in rec ball, i argue the reward never is great enough to justify cheating. in 'real' games, there are situations where the reward is greater than the risk. thats when its worth it.

The reward is never enough to justify cheating... one cheats because they decide to, but don't justify it. There is no good justification, there is no good excuse, that does not diminish it happening, but I have a problem with one trying to lend credence to it by justifying it. Cheating is just that, cheating...

[yakitori]

Whilst I agree with the principle of your thoughts I do have a problem with part of your statement. You state above that you "make sure wipers get enough paint so they can't wipe" well ok if you see the person wipe then yes I see your point but the way it reads is that you will light up everyone which is a form of cheating in itself (by cheating in this way I mean going against the rules of the game and overshooting comes under this section as breaking the rules so by implication it is cheating) So thus you are making an assumption that all are cheats and even then you contradict yourself and say it is part of the game. You can't have it all ways.
I will walk when hit, hand on head or hand in the air (event dependant) and yet I still get hit in the back by over zealous opposition players....wander off slowly arms down and sorry you have it coming since you are not indicating that you are out but I would guess that has been covered more than once or twice before.
Breaking out with your hand across your face says you are preparing to wipe so expect some of that extra love you are talking about above but not all players act like this.

you kinda took what I meant out of context. I said that I shoot wipers. I didnt say that I assume that all ppl are cheaters, so I light everyone up. I dont overshoot. PPl that wipe where I play are well known. If you play against someone all day and they are wiping, then that is grounds to make sure they cant by putting more paint on them. That is why I said 'wipers' get enough paint that they cant wipe. Besides overshooting IMO is putting like 5-6 more balls on someone who has clearly signalled they are out. Just hitting someone w/ 5-6 balls is not overshooting. PPl that dont wipe, there is no need to keep painting them.

I hope you understand that now by re-reading my post and taking the nouns and verbs for what they really are, hence the noun 'wipers'. There was no implication that everyone gets light up. THanks for calling me a cheater though. I really appreciate that. ;)
:cheers:

[Aslan]

cheating, aka breaking hte rules, comes down to risk vs reward. in rec ball, i argue the reward never is great enough to justify cheating. in 'real' games, there are situations where the reward is greater than the risk. thats when its worth it.

What reward is there for winning if you cheated to win? One annoying thing about players that cheat is how they brag about their skills or the trophy they won or how generally great they are. But are they? No...they didn't have more game, they just cheated. So they really won nothing. It's like the teachers in school used to say, cheating can only get you so far. Eventually, you'll be in an environment where you have to rely on skills and you won't have any.

If I walk into a tourney, hand the ref $50 and he allows me to wipe and throw rocks at other players and start shooting before they can...I'm sure that everyone in the tourney would be up in arms and crying foul...but then the ref gives me my $50 back and starts to call the game fair and all the sudden the same crybabies are wiping and seeing if they can not get caught. It's the SAME THING...the same thing! You want to get a trophy to help your self-esteem issues...go to the store and buy won! But don't claim to have skills because you won a trophy or even a game when you cheated. :shooting: :nono:

Cheaters have self-esteem issues...they feel that they have to win so they can have a better image of themselves,,,which is why they usually brag about it (winning or cheating) afterwards. :cool:

[yakitori]

Well said Yakitori. I agree with you that cheating is a part of life, and you just need to get past it.

Also I went to the factory today and it was awesome, I'm def. gonna keep playing there :)

sweet. Im glad you liked it.

Aliens....lol. At least someone here can vouch for my sportsmanship. :D. That was a fun day indeed. I am actually just finishing up a scab from sliding into that snake w/ my sleeves rolled up. Im going to the factory this saturday around 4pm. Maybe Ill see ya there sometime. Cant wait to see that ego when ya get it. Ive never shot or held one and Ive always been curious.

[Kevmaster]

What reward is there for winning if you cheated to win? One annoying thing about players that cheat is how they brag about their skills or the trophy they won or how generally great they are. But are they? No...they didn't have more game, they just cheated. So they really won nothing. It's like the teachers in school used to say, cheating can only get you so far. Eventually, you'll be in an environment where you have to rely on skills and you won't have any.

If I walk into a tourney, hand the ref $50 and he allows me to wipe and throw rocks at other players and start shooting before they can...I'm sure that everyone in the tourney would be up in arms and crying foul...but then the ref gives me my $50 back and starts to call the game fair and all the sudden the same crybabies are wiping and seeing if they can not get caught. It's the SAME THING...the same thing! You want to get a trophy to help your self-esteem issues...go to the store and buy won! But don't claim to have skills because you won a trophy or even a game when you cheated. :shooting: :nono:

Cheaters have self-esteem issues...they feel that they have to win so they can have a better image of themselves,,,which is why they usually brag about it (winning or cheating) afterwards. :cool:

look at EVERY major professional sport: basketball, baseball, football.

basketball, you foul, travel, stay in the paint longer than 3 seconds, hold the ball for more than 5... its all CHEATING. You arnt allowed to initiate contact with another player that affects what he is trying to do. how many fouls are called per game? 25? 30? Somewhere around there. Post players are not allowed to stay in the paint for more than 3 seconds. They regularly break this rule. Why? because almost NEVER is this called. Going for a layup, want to take that extra step? Just hope it isn't called traveling.

baseball. catcher must stay in the 'catcher's box', batters must stay in the 'batters box' and you arn't allowed to slide out of the basepath to break up a double play. if you look at homeplate after 2-3 innings, you can't tell where the batters box ends or where the catchers box IS. Why? They've intentionally brushed the chalk away so they can move where they please. the umpire NEVER tells them to get 'in' the batters box. When you slide into second, you have to go with the basepath. you can't go out of it to knock over the short stop/second baseman. they regularly do, however. almost never is this called (it is occasionally--only in REALLY obvious cases).

football. its most obvious when it is a wide reciever or cornerback. they push off each other like there is no tomorrow. is it legal? no. do they know that? yes. is it so they can each try to get an advantage over one or the other? you bet ya. the wide receiver is trying to catch the durn ball. the corner bakc is trying to not let him catch it. oftentimes, it doesnt work, and one of hte two gets called for pass interference. thats the way it goes


i can continue, if i wanted to, with soccer, hockey, just about every sport... (i leave out golf, but i dont think ANYONE would compare the "gentlemen's game" of golf to paintball

do you look down on everyone who plays football? baseball? basketball? I dont think so. They are breaking the rules, knowing that they might get caught. They're hoping, however that they wont, and thats what makes breaking them attractive. its the same for paintball. joe wipes because he thinks the reward of him staying in is greater than the risk of the ref pulling someone else. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. thats the game

I specifically distinguish between this stuff and dirty plays. going back to hte baseball example, there are two ways to slide into the shortstop/secondbaseman. a dirty one and a clean one. i respeect the player who goes out of the baseline to just try to break it up. I have no respect for a player who tries to break it up by injuring another player. same can be said for a guy who tackles someone hard and someone who tackles someone trying to hurt them. those are two entirely different categories.

[Kevmaster]

The reward is never enough to justify cheating...

thats your opinion, and honestly, it is my inclination. thats why i run hte owners group division.

[Lohman446]

thats your opinion, and honestly, it is my inclination. thats why i run hte owners group division.


Let me discuss this with you though, it has become interesting the way you have said it, almost a level of "cheating" that may be acceptable.

Before I get accused of being hypocritical, I have cheated in the past, with full knowledge of it.

Your analogy of brushing the batters box, pushing off, etc.

Its kind of like running for a bunker, getting hit, and sliding before checking to see if it broke, You are technically against the rules, but you are not removing a "known" hit as you didn't pause to check. This is different then getting hit, pulling out your towel, and wiping it off. You could have been out, or you could have been in, you didn't really pay attention. Is that the type of situation you are discussing, those "gray" areas that obeying the rules strictly would get you destroyed (stopping to check the hit, or not sliding to make sure you did not wipe it off)? Is this then cheating?

[Thordic]

Yeah, I think there is a difference, Kev.

If you think you might be hit, but you aren't sure and continue to play on until a ref calls you out, then ok.

If you run and slide hard off the break to try to clean any possible hits, then ok.

But if you feel yourself get hit, see yourself get hit, and 100% know you got hit, and you conciously move to wipe it, thats a different story.

Theres a difference between playing the grey and cheating.

Giving the 2nd baseman a little bump as you come into second is ok.

Doing what A-Rod did and slapping the ball out of the guys glove is cheating.

[MarkM]

you kinda took what I meant out of context. I said that I shoot wipers. I didnt say that I assume that all ppl are cheaters, so I light everyone up. I dont overshoot. PPl that wipe where I play are well known. If you play against someone all day and they are wiping, then that is grounds to make sure they cant by putting more paint on them. That is why I said 'wipers' get enough paint that they cant wipe. Besides overshooting IMO is putting like 5-6 more balls on someone who has clearly signalled they are out. Just hitting someone w/ 5-6 balls is not overshooting. PPl that dont wipe, there is no need to keep painting them.

I hope you understand that now by re-reading my post and taking the nouns and verbs for what they really are, hence the noun 'wipers'. There was no implication that everyone gets light up. THanks for calling me a cheater though. I really appreciate that. ;)
:cheers:

Nothing was taken out of context since I quoted the entire post and then took the parts I didn't agree with. As for calling you a cheater, yes I did and immediately explained why. There is no conflict involved here just simply a reading of the rules as written...some leeway is always applied as with the example of sliding into a barricade before checking yourself for a hit but then that is down to the particular judge who is watching as technically it is a breech of the rules and a penalty is applicable..when a penalty is applied it means you as a player went against the rules IE you cheated. This is the correct context under which this statement was made and you are the one who took a comment out on context. ;) :cheers:

[yakitori]

Nothing was taken out of context since I quoted the entire post and then took the parts I din't agree with. As for calling you a cheater, yes I did and immediately explained why. There is no conflict involved here just simply a reading of the rules as written...some leeway is always applied as with the example of sliding into a barricade before checking yourself for a hit but then that is down to the particular judge who is watching as technically it is a breech of the rules and a penalty is applicable..when a penalty is applied it means you as a player went against the rules IE you cheated. This is the correct context under which this statement was made and you are the one who took a comment out on context. ;) :cheers:

I didnt say that I overshoot wipers. I said that I hit them w/ enough paint so that they cannot wipe. As I explained the meaning of overshooting/bonus balling as continuing to shoot someone after they have signalled that they are eliminated. Shooting someone 5 times is not cheating. It doesnt become a cheat until the player has signaled they are out.

I didnt take anything out of context. Maybe you and I just have a different idea of what overshooting is. And I am not a cheater for the record. Youve never even played w/ or against me, so you have no right to make such a statement. And you did take my post out of context. You just proved it by admitting that you called me a cheater and the reason why you did was not what you describe here. Thats a different scenario. Cheating is conciously going against the rule. Its not as bad to take a hit in the pack and not know it, and continue to play. Sometimes you cannot feel those kinds of hits. The ref, spots it and calls you out. It happens in a fast paced game.


Its not against the rules to get into your bunker before you check for hits. Its playing on that is cheating. I dont know if thats against the rules in england, but it sint here. Playing on is prolly cheating both here and england.

[SlartyBartFast]

Its not against the rules to get into your bunker before you check for hits.

Really?

Search for some of my discussions about the unenforced (and some unenforceable) rules and the penalties for them.

[MarkM]

Re-read my original post and look at the explainations as to what is cheating with the context of the reasoning. If you light someone up and continue to do so that is against the rules...no arguement If the guy is wiping and you do it unless the ref sees the guy wiping you will be penalised as breaking the rules. Breaking the rules means cheating..albeit a minor enfraction on a list of penalties but a penalty all the same.
I am writing this from the standpoint of being a judge (not wanting to be or having only done it a couple of times but from a judging career? of in excess 15 years...local events up to PSP, NPPL and Millenium)

[Army]

Cheaters are liars. Liars suck. Cheaters suck.

There is NO gray area. You are hit, you are out. To wipe means that you KNOW that you are hit, you KNOW you are out, but you lie about it.

Liars are cheaters. Cheaters suck. Liars suck.


If you wipe, you suck hard. If you cheat, you suck hard. If you think lieing and cheating are acceptable at any level of the game....


.....you just suck.

[SlartyBartFast]

There is NO gray area.

There is a grey area. But it's not about whether cheating is bad or not. It the difference between cheating and an infraction for breaking a rule.

Like Yaki's position on overshooting. A couple of extra hits for insurance, may or may not be an infraction. Deliberately seeking retribution, or deliberately wiping are both cheating. One begets the other.

THe other contentious area is how to determine levels of infraction and how to determine deliberate versus unintentional/heat of the momnet affairs.

[Lohman446]

Cheaters are liars. Liars suck. Cheaters suck.

There is NO gray area. You are hit, you are out. To wipe means that you KNOW that you are hit, you KNOW you are out, but you lie about it.

So, youre on the way to the snake, its muddy, your going to dive for it anyways, and you feel a hit as you are two steps from the dive, you never look but you dive and remove anything that may have broken. The rules stated this was not technically right. Have you cheated? Are you a liar? Do you suck? You broke the rule... but was it cheating?

[yakitori]

Thanks slarty. That was what I was trying to say. I dont think mark understood the differnce between overshooting and making sure a couple shots get there for assurance. I guess maybe I wasnt being all that clear about my point. But, you hit the nail on the head. Thats what I was referring to.

And yes. There is a difference between infringing on a rule and cheating. For example. I was in the snake last weekend. I shot a guy in the elbow who was at my mirror in the other end of the snake. He wiped, the ref checked him and called him clean. Meanwhile I jump over the frontside of the snake, and run toward his place. He is trying to peak back out the backside of the snake down the tape. Meanwhile Im coming up on the frontside of the snake and I stabbed him over a small juicebox in his section of the snake. I kinda slipped when I did, and I leaned over the bunker a bit much and moved the juicebox slightly. According to the rule, I am not supposed to move the bunker, but did I cheat? IMO no. To mean cheating is more of a conscious effort to blatantly break a rule to gain yourself an advantage.

As for getting to the bunker you are going to before checking for hits. Its fine. Sliding in a manner to remove a hit is closer to cheating. If for instance you are running to the snake, you take one in the chest, and slide head first to remove it conciously. Thats cheating. If you are running and get hit on the way in the back of the leg or the side of the mask, and slide headfirst to give yourself cover before checking. Then upon your finding the break on your mask calling yourself out, Thats not cheating.

so, there are non cheating ways to get to your bunker before checking for hits. What if it bounced? Are you supposed to stop out in the open and call time out and check for a hit in the open? no. You always get behind cover before checking for a hit. If you dont, ppl will have no mercy on you cause you stopped to check for a possible bounce. Doing that will get you lit up and eliminated for certain. There is a difference between the two.

[Lohman446]

As for getting to the bunker you are going to before checking for hits. Its fine. Sliding in a manner to remove a hit is closer to cheating. .

But is it cheating? I took a hit at a tournament recently to the left side of my back, and I slid on my left side. I have no clue if the ball broke or not, and the ref could not come up with a clue. Did I cheat? I took a hit to the back of my left shoulder blade as I dove for the snake in wet clay, and skidded to a stop. The ref thought it hit my chest and i had supermanned to take it off. The ball had bounced... did I cheat? Not at all... what if the hit had been to the chest and I had slid - if it had broke did I cheat? There is indeed a grey area in cheating, its just where exactly is it? Some rules say distinctly when hit it is your responsibility to see if the ball broke or not before continuing to play, and you may not act in a way that would remove that hit... some say you don't even get to go to your bunker, you must stop at the closest bunker to check. There is a gray area. Is it consciously wiping off a hit when your in your bunker - no, thats pretty obvious, but there is a gray area between obvious cheating and playing.

[SlartyBartFast]

But is it cheating? I took a hit at a tournament recently to the left side of my back, and I slid on my left side. I have no clue if the ball broke or not, and the ref could not come up with a clue. Did I cheat?

Time for the rulebook quote:

http://www.nppl.tv/2005-Rules-final-3-1-05.pdf

From 17.01, on page 19


Players who are in motion while hit in obvious locations, which are easily verifiable, will
immediately turn their motion away from the opposition, and stop.

Like it or not that's what is says. If the game is played differently, the rules need changing because otherwise it's cheating.

The rule book doesn't say that you're to continue doing what you were going to do and check at the earliest convenience. It says YOU, not the ref, check IMMEDIATELY. The only excusable behaviour would be to get behind the closest cover as stopping in a lane would eb stupid. But slides or wiping your out-held hand on a bunker seem a little difficult to justify.seem

[Lohman446]

Time for the rulebook quote:

http://www.nppl.tv/2005-Rules-final-3-1-05.pdf

From 17.01, on page 19



Like it or not that's what is says. If the game is played differently, the rules need changing because otherwise it's cheating.

I agree with you, I was thinking of that rule, or something like it, but didn't have it in front of me. So, according to the idea that not following the rules is cheating and you suck and are a liar if you do cheat... well a lot of us are now in that boat that thought we (umm.. thats we wtihout including me somehow) were perfect. Haha, you've failed to follow the rules too, so you are cheater, a liar, and worthless just like those you say are. <--- made of illustrative effect only, I don't mean it.

Theres a grey area.. at least if we are playing under the written rules but playing by the enforced rules.

[yakitori]

Time for the rulebook quote:

http://www.nppl.tv/2005-Rules-final-3-1-05.pdf

From 17.01, on page 19



Like it or not that's what is says. If the game is played differently, the rules need changing because otherwise it's cheating.

Well, stoping and turning around in the wide open clear will get you lit up in the back. Then youre out for stopping to check if it broke in the open. What if that ball bounced? Then you stopped and checked in the open only to get yourself eliminated. It could be wordsmithed about what 'exactly' does stop your acceleration toward the other team. Could that mean go to the nearest bunker to see if its a break, or stop out in the open. It doesnt specify. Its too broad of a definition w/o a finite action that should be taken when a hit is felt.

I agree, the nearest bunker is the best place to check. The only problem w/ that is that usually when you are getting shot, you are making a move, and almost to the bunker you are going to. Seldomly is it when you get shot halfway to your bunker and so you just pull over to the nearest one to check. In most cases, the nearest bunker is the one you were running for.

For you own safety its better to check for hits in the nearest bunker, than to stop

[SlartyBartFast]

For you own safety its better to check for hits in the nearest bunker, than to stop

But that's not what it says is it?

If you now conciously break that rule, knowing that it's there, and knowing that it won't be enforced and gives you a huge advantage, you are undeniably, without question, cheating.

Unless the event organiser of head judge wishes to offer you a clarification.

[Lohman446]

Well, stoping and turning around in the wide open clear will get you lit up in the back. Then youre out for stopping to check if it broke in the open. What if that ball bounced? Then you stopped and checked in the open only to get yourself eliminated. It could be wordsmithed about what 'exactly' does stop your acceleration toward the other team. Could that mean go to the nearest bunker to see if its a break, or stop out in the open. It doesnt specify. Its too broad of a definition w/o a finite action that should be taken when a hit is felt.


For you own safety its better to check for hits in the nearest bunker, than to stop


No... its not that hard to understand what it means

"Players who are in motion while hit in obvious locations, which are easily verifiable, will
immediately turn their motion away from the opposition, and stop"

This allows lateral movement to the closest bunker, but not towards an opponent before checking. Now we can try to make the rule more grey by picking at it, or we can just admit that our behavior is very grey. Is the rule good? No I do not like it at all and it should be changed to be more in line with what actually happens and what is allowed. But do we ignore it when we play - yes we do. Isn't ignoring a rule cheating, even if everyone does it and the refs allow it? Isn't justify any other behavior, other than following the rule as it is written, justifying cheating?

[yakitori]

This allows lateral movement to the closest bunker, but not towards an opponent before checking. Now we can try to make the rule more grey by picking at it, or we can just admit that our behavior is very grey. Is the rule good? No I do not like it at all and it should be changed to be more in line with what actually happens and what is allowed. But do we ignore it when we play - yes we do.


That was my point. Lateral movement is not defined. and the "stop your acceleration "toward" the opposition" is too broad.

[MarkM]

There is a grey area. But it's not about whether cheating is bad or not. It the difference between cheating and an infraction for breaking a rule.

Like Yaki's position on overshooting. A couple of extra hits for insurance, may or may not be an infraction. Deliberately seeking retribution, or deliberately wiping are both cheating. One begets the other.

THe other contentious area is how to determine levels of infraction and how to determine deliberate versus unintentional/heat of the momnet affairs.



Thanks slarty. That was what I was trying to say. I dont think mark understood the differnce between overshooting and making sure a couple shots get there for assurance. I guess maybe I wasnt being all that clear about my point. But, you hit the nail on the head. Thats what I was referring to.

And yes. There is a difference between infringing on a rule and cheating. For example. I was in the snake last weekend. I shot a guy in the elbow who was at my mirror in the other end of the snake. He wiped, the ref checked him and called him clean. Meanwhile I jump over the frontside of the snake, and run toward his place. He is trying to peak back out the backside of the snake down the tape. Meanwhile Im coming up on the frontside of the snake and I stabbed him over a small juicebox in his section of the snake. I kinda slipped when I did, and I leaned over the bunker a bit much and moved the juicebox slightly. According to the rule, I am not supposed to move the bunker, but did I cheat? IMO no. To mean cheating is more of a conscious effort to blatantly break a rule to gain yourself an advantage.

As for getting to the bunker you are going to before checking for hits. Its fine. Sliding in a manner to remove a hit is closer to cheating. If for instance you are running to the snake, you take one in the chest, and slide head first to remove it conciously. Thats cheating. If you are running and get hit on the way in the back of the leg or the side of the mask, and slide headfirst to give yourself cover before checking. Then upon your finding the break on your mask calling yourself out, Thats not cheating.

so, there are non cheating ways to get to your bunker before checking for hits. What if it bounced? Are you supposed to stop out in the open and call time out and check for a hit in the open? no. You always get behind cover before checking for a hit. If you dont, ppl will have no mercy on you cause you stopped to check for a possible bounce. Doing that will get you lit up and eliminated for certain. There is a difference between the two.


I perfectly understand the difference between overshooting and just plain hit...often it is a judgement call as to the time it has taken...a single shot can be overshooting if a time delay has taken place and the player has clearly indicated that they are out...harsh but accurate.
If you actually re-read Slartybartfast's reply it doesn't read as he is defending you he is answering Army's post. (slartybartfast if I misunderstood your post then please say so)
If you deliberately shoot at a player extra shots (extra being any shots after you see a break) then you are overshooting as if you have seen the breaks you know they are out...no excuse of "oh my finger slipped etc etc" can be used...this is one of the major complaints about ramping and run through muggings.
So if you deliberately continue to shoot at a player knowing them to be out you are breaking the rules...ie cheating,
In America as you are that would be assault as even though you walk onto a field expecting to get hit, you play the game with the understanding that once you are hit you will not be hit again until the next game...now that is a real grey area but TECHNICALLY accurate.

[Lohman446]

IT does tell you exactly what to do when you are hit.. stop motion towards the other team and check.. it does not say anything about allowing you to the closest bunker just because noone does that does not make it any less clear in what it means. Not following a rule... if its a bad one, is that cheating?

[yakitori]

I perfectly understand the difference between overshooting and just plain hit...often it is a judgement call as to the time it has taken...a single shot can be overshooting if a time delay has taken place and the player has clearly indicated that they are out...harsh but accurate.
If you actually re-read Slartybartfast's reply it doesn't read as he is defending you he is answering Army's post. (slartybartfast if I misunderstood your post then please say so)
If you deliberately shoot at a player extra shots (extra being any shots after you see a break) then you are overshooting as if you have seen the breaks you know they are out...no excuse of "oh my finger slipped etc etc" can be used...this is one of the major complaints about ramping and run through muggings.
So if you deliberately continue to shoot at a player knowing them to be out you are breaking the rules...ie cheating,
In America as you are that would be assault as even though you walk onto a field expecting to get hit, you play the game with the understanding that once you are hit you will not be hit again until the next game...now that is a real grey area but TECHNICALLY accurate.

do you guys shoot 2bps in england? cause at 10bps or so , its not easy to keep more than one ball from breaking on ppl. As for tourney rules and players, most know that. PPl dont complain about 3-4 balls on them. But when they have signalled they are out, and THEN you put 4-5 more on them. Or even 1 more on them. They get upset.

[yakitori]

IT does tell you exactly what to do when you are hit.. stop motion towards the other team and check.. it does not say anything about allowing you to the closest bunker just because noone does that does not make it any less clear in what it means. Not following a rule... if its a bad one, is that cheating?

I agree with you. Im not disputing what you are saying, Im agreeing with it. The rule does say stop your advancement toward the opposition. As you described lateral movement being against the rule or not being against the rule. I guess I should revise my statement to the nearest bunker lateral to you. :D.

[Kevmaster]

That was my point. Lateral movement is not defined. and the "stop your acceleration "toward" the opposition" is too broad.

hardly. lateral movement means horizontal movement on the field

towards your opponent is towards thme...horizontal or backwards...not forward.

i think thas pretty clear


Thor, Loh...you guys may be right. the sliding and not looking may be lesser degrees of cheating than wiping, but they are still cheating. the rules specifically prohibit these actions. people ignore/break the rules because they think they can get ahead by doing it. the punishment for wiping is also greater than for either of these (assuming that a ref ever calls you on one of these).

[SlartyBartFast]

or we can just admit that our behavior is very grey.

No. Our behaviour is very clearly BLACK. The rule and its enforcement are grey.

The rule says STOP. It makes no allowance for lateral movement.

Much the same as waiting for a ref to call an elimination is clearly playing on as the responsibility for checking lies first with the player, second with a team mate, and by the rules, only in the case of dispute with the ref.

Sure, it's not the way the game is palyed, but it is what the rules say.

[SlartyBartFast]

(assuming that a ref ever calls you on one of these).

And that's the rub (or is it the wipe?).

Enforcement and officiating SUCK. The games are run by and for those who want to sell the most equipment and/or paint.

[yakitori]

hardly. lateral movement means horizontal movement on the field

towards your opponent is towards thme...horizontal or backwards...not forward.

i think thas pretty clear



I know what lateral means. But the rulebook doesnt say "lateral movement" that was my point of the rulebook not defining lateral movement. It says stop advancing toward them. Backward or sideways is acceptable? It also says stop, but doesnt say stop w/in 2 steps, or out in the open. Thats why I am saying that is it too broad. So, according to the rulebook, I could move sideways, horizontally away from, or backward after an verifiable hit, and then "stop" 10 steps, 20 ft., 2 ft, 1 bunker...etc. etc. away to check for a break?

That is too broad of a definition.

[Lohman446]

No. Our behaviour is very clearly BLACK. The rule and its enforcement are grey.

The rule says STOP. It makes no allowance for lateral movement.

Much the same as waiting for a ref to call an elimination is clearly playing on as the responsibility for checking lies first with the player, second with a team mate, and by the rules, only in the case of dispute with the ref.

Sure, it's not the way the game is palyed, but it is what the rules say.


True.. it is very clearly against the rules. The first PSP tournament I went to, after reading those rules, I thought how much it would change my game, because these rules had no grey area. Guess what... your right, the enforcement to the rules sucked. There are a good many of us who have cheated... a good share of people who have cheated just refuse to admit it, hide behind some justification, etc. If you can justify not following that rule how can you complain when someone justifies wiping? Isn't cheating kinda like being dead, its hard to do just a little.. either you cheat or you don't. It seems that a lot of people, perhaps the majority cheat. PS - I'm not trying to defend wiping either, its wrong, but so is the way a lot of us play, at least according to the rules as written.

[Lohman446]

I know what lateral means. But the rulebook doesnt say "lateral movement" that was my point of the rulebook not defining lateral movement. It says stop advancing toward them. Backward or sideways is acceptable? It also says stop, but doesnt say stop w/in 2 steps, or out in the open. Thats why I am saying that is it too broad. So, according to the rulebook, I could move sideways, horizontally away from, or backward after an verifiable hit, and then "stop" 10 steps, 20 ft., 2 ft, 1 bunker...etc. etc. away to check for a break?

That is too broad of a definition.

The rules get clearer Yak.. I have a copy at home and will read them, but you are going to find they are pretty clear about the immediacy of checking for a hit when discussing them in other places.

[yakitori]

I think that when ppl discuss whether they are a cheater or not is by using reasoning for it. NOt by nit picking and saying. "oh well, I shot someon twice, I AM a cheater"

[yakitori]

well it sucks calling yourself out only to find that it bounced and you couldve still been in play even when a ref verified it. But I guess according to the rulebook, you would be out on a bounce, and would NOT be a cheater.

[Lohman446]

I think that when ppl discuss whether they are a cheater or not is by using reasoning for it. NOt by nit picking and saying. "oh well, I shot someon twice, I AM a cheater"

What about the examples we were discussing Yak... not overshooting but sliding before checking for hits. Don't change it back to overshooting, which we are not addressing. The rule here is clear, very much so, and a very large number of us are in violation. Does that make us no-good SOB cheaters?

[yakitori]

What about the examples we were discussing Yak... not overshooting but sliding before checking for hits. Don't change it back to overshooting, which we are not addressing. The rule here is clear, very much so, and a very large number of us are in violation. Does that make us no-good SOB cheaters?

I wasnt trying to change it back. I was just trying to show a point that when cheating is do difficult NOT to do ( ie shooting 2 times, sliding, lateral movement, etc) ppl dont consider themselves cheaters within a reasonable realm. If you called everyone a cheater that has shot someone twice and both broke, then to me, thats not right.

And I dont beleive that some scenarios w/in reason are cheating. Of course you can get down to the nitty gritty and "find" a way that someone has broken a rule and classify them as a cheater, but MOST ppl dont define a cheater by some of the rules listed. Thats what makes cheating so gray.

So, are you a "cheater" for having excessive stickers on your loader? Its in the rulebook.

Hell then, the way you put it, I am a no-good SOB cheater. But I still have good sportsmanship.

[MarkM]

do you guys shoot 2bps in england? cause at 10bps or so , its not easy to keep more than one ball from breaking on ppl. As for tourney rules and players, most know that. PPl dont complain about 3-4 balls on them. But when they have signalled they are out, and THEN you put 4-5 more on them. Or even 1 more on them. They get upset.

Now who is trying to condescending again?

Re-read this first line from my last post...

I perfectly understand the difference between overshooting and just plain hit...often it is a judgement call as to the time it has taken...a single shot can be overshooting if a time delay has taken place and the player has clearly indicated that they are out...harsh but accurate.

Nowhere did I say about the player making the overshooting call...I am talking from a Judges perspective who should not have tunnel vision in the fire fight.
Too often judges laydown and watch one player with no realisation of the move going on behind them and only see paint on the player who they are watching and pull that player for sometimes a single hit but if they were to look over their shoulder they will see that the player who made the move is dripping paint and even though another judge may have pulled that player or maybe the player themselves has now left the field...who cheated? The player with a single hit? The other player? (who in all likely hood had to be hit several times but to no avail since he did what he was trying to do..eliminate the other guy) Grey areas but both of these two players in this example cheated by the letter of the rules. Though better judge awareness would have stopped the player who was hit the once going over the rules line, as the player making the move would have been removed from the field quicker. I from the sidelines have seen a move like the one decribed and the player with a single hit on them has had a penalty applied to them due to the vocal talents of the paint dripping player.
No rule book is totally cut and dried as whenever any league issues new rulebooks people disect every part to a stupid degree..in fact rules books are becoming more and more like legal documents in their wording adn the lack of plain english is sadly lacking but a clever interpretation of some rules can be used to actually argue away some infractions

[yakitori]

No rule book is totally cut and dried as whenever any league issues new rulebooks people disect every part to a stupid degree..in fact rules books are becoming more and more like legal documents in their wording adn the lack of plain english is sadly lacking but a clever interpretation of some rules can be used to actually argue away some infractions


My bad, I know that you meant if time had passed. But in my original post, I didnt imply that. I didnt think my statement about shooting a wiper more than once, was worthy of the "cheater" label that you gave me.

But in the end of your post. I totally agree w/ that statement. Nit picking and disecting a rule can go on to no end.

The bottomline is that ppl know how to play paintball by the rules. Its common sense pretty much. Like my example of moving a bunker when I bunkered a guy over the top of a juicebox, does that make me a cheater cause a rule was broken?

[Lohman446]

The bottomline is that ppl know how to play paintball by the rules. Its common sense pretty much.

No people don't know how to play by the rules as written. Stand on the sidelines and watch a game. There are a lot of people who cheat intentionally, and a lot of people who cheat because it is "the way everyone plays" but very few people play by written PSP / NPPL rules. You have taken this road to put yourself above a lot of people by saying I don't cheat. A lot of people have gone as far as to say anyone who cheats is trash. I am mearly taking the time to point out that in fact, many of you do not play by the rules as written. How is this different than cheating? That is an honest question.

[CrimsonGhost]

The whole Ignorance of the Law argument...good way to put it Lo
:cheers:

[yakitori]

No people don't know how to play by the rules as written. Stand on the sidelines and watch a game. There are a lot of people who cheat intentionally, and a lot of people who cheat because it is "the way everyone plays" but very few people play by written PSP / NPPL rules. You have taken this road to put yourself above a lot of people by saying I don't cheat. A lot of people have gone as far as to say anyone who cheats is trash. I am mearly taking the time to point out that in fact, many of you do not play by the rules as written. How is this different than cheating? That is an honest question.

so IMO, I dont cheat intentionally then. Hows that? I guess I am one of those unintentional cheaters who moves to a bunker to check for a break or bounce, or bobbles a bunker when I bunker someone, or shoots someone w/ more than one ball.

Im a total scum bag unintentional cheater. :p

[Thordic]

Anyone who stopped moving every time they felt a hit is an idiot. I don't care if its against the rules or not.

Army, I think even you would have trouble argueing with that.

If I'm running towards a bunker and feel a hit that may or may not have broken, I'm going to get to that bunker before I check. The reason is, if I stop to check or have a ref check, I'm going to get hit again. And then I'll be out.

If you make it to the bunker, then you can check safely and still be in the game if it was a bounce.

Thats an area where I think the rule is faulty and should be altered.

[Lohman446]

Anyone who stopped moving every time they felt a hit is an idiot. I don't care if its against the rules or not.

I agree with you. What I don't agree with the people who say "I have no respect for someone who cheats" "cheaters suck" etc. and then try to justify there own violations of the rules as ok. I cheat... think what you want of me for it, I deserve it, but I don't sit here and try to justify how its ok for you to ignore a rule and be different.

[Lohman446]

so IMO, I dont cheat intentionally then. Hows that?

That would be a cop out.

So from now on you're going to follow the rule as written, or continue cheating even though you know the rule. Thats not unintentional, thats attempting to justify your cheating as ok, but everyone elses, or different forms as wrong. You choose to ignore a rule you don't agree with, that is not unintentional.

[shartley]

I see a lot of semantics going on with many of the arguments. For me, just because you broke a rule does not mean you “cheated”. Cheating involves intentional and purposeful breaking of rules for the purpose of winning.

Lots of folks want to use the basketball and fouling as a direct comparison for paintball infractions. Sometimes it works, but other times it does not. So I will not even go there with this post.

What I will do is give some examples of how breaking the rules can be cheating OR not.

You are running and accidentally step out of bounds, but you continue to play. Did ;you break the rules? Yes. Did you cheat? No.

You are playing and see that if by stepping out of bounds you can get a better angle on an opponent or get to a better position, so you do so. Did you break the rules? Yes. Did you cheat? Yes.

And there are many examples where just breaking the rules does not make someone a “cheater”. What makes someone a cheater is the intentional and purposeful breaking of rules for the purpose of winning, or gaining an advantage.

I don’t like it when people cheat, and I think those who do should do some reflecting on the matter. I don’t however have a problem with unintentional breaking of rules, which happens even with the best of players and people. That does not mean you just let them keep doing it, but you don’t brand them as a cheater. You tell them what they did wrong, issue the appropriate penalty, and get on with things. And for me there is no excuse for cheating, period.

[Lohman446]

And there are many examples where just breaking the rules does not make someone a “cheater”. What makes someone a cheater is the intentional and purposeful breaking of rules for the purpose of winning, or gaining an advantage.
.

Let me ask you this example Sam. I am running to my bunker, I feel a hit and yet I dive into my bunker anways. I have clearly violated the rule as it is written. This is the way "everyone" plays. Why didn't I stop and check, as the rule says I should? I would have been lit up and obviously eliminated, continuing to move helps me win. It is not an accidental stepping out of bounds... is it cheating? I did it intentionally, though I have not wiped intentionally :P? Serious question, I'd like to know what you think, you seem to be able to see the lines, and make a reasonable judgement.

[shartley]

Let me ask you this example Sam. I am running to my bunker, I feel a hit and yet I dive into my bunker anways. I have clearly violated the rule as it is written. This is the way "everyone" plays. Why didn't I stop and check, as the rule says I should? I would have been lit up and obviously eliminated, continuing to move helps me win. It is not an accidental stepping out of bounds... is it cheating? I did it intentionally, though I have not wiped intentionally :P? Serious question, I'd like to know what you think, you seem to be able to see the lines, and make a reasonable judgement.
I feel if you were firing, yes. If not, no.

I agree that this particular rule should be made more clear. However, if EVERYONE plays by that rule modification, would it be considered cheating in a Rec situation? Good question. I would say it isn’t. The same way most of us play Monopoly with “house rules”, and not what is written on the box. Are we all cheating? ;)

But most things are very clear with paintball. And I think most of us know the deal.

[MadPSIence]

That would be a cop out.

So from now on you're going to follow the rule as written, or continue cheating even though you know the rule. Thats not unintentional, thats attempting to justify your cheating as ok, but everyone elses, or different forms as wrong. You choose to ignore a rule you don't agree with, that is not unintentional.

wait.. he copped out again?

wow. :tard:

[SlartyBartFast]

If 1/4 of the energy spent whining and complaining about cheating were put into lobbying and organisation for concrete rule changes and enforcement, the game would be light years ahead.

Guess it's just easier to ***** about wipers. :rolleyes:

I will say that the 2005 rules are an improvement. But, there's still lots more to go before the rules are acceptable and match the game or vice versa.

[yakitori]

I agree w/ slarty as to the semantics and interpretatioin of the rule. It needs to be revised or more clear. And those rules are for NPPL/PSP, etc. Not everyone plays in those leagues, so are those rules the same when I go to the field and play w/ a bunch of other players in a non tourney setting?

Honestly, how many of us play in the Nppl? How many of us have read and know in detail the Nppl rulebook? So, does it make ppl a cheater in other sports. For instance, in the NFL if you drop a knee, and are untouched, you can return to your feet and continue playing. In college and everywhere else you cant. But say your college buddies call you and want to go to the park to play football. You catch a kick off and slip one foot and touch a knee. Then you get up and return the ball. Is everyone going to be griping and moaning about you cheating, calling you cheater, etc?

And no Lohman, that wasnt a cop out. That was a joke, hence the tongue sticking out. :P. You just didnt copy the whole quote, only on particular sentence, and then elaborated on it. The surrounding text was there to serve a purpose to simplify the statement.

:D.

[SCpoloRicker]

wait.. he copped out again?

wow. :tard:

Wow, you win at the intarwebs. Again. Blarg, you're annoying.

[SlartyBartFast]

And those rules are for NPPL/PSP, etc.
...
Honestly, how many of us play in the Nppl?

But, it's those rules that get referenced by nearly every local tournament.

Some rec rules and "house" rules to post at fields would be a great idea.

Last time I played, I though I had hit the jackpot. A group of rich guys has a deal with a local indoor and play regularly, pay entrance and use their own paint 40$ a case.

But....

Half way through the evening I was being yelled at for cheating. My crimes?

First we weren't allowed to use the interior of the building for some games. The goofs never understood that it was possible to shoot from outside some of the buildings through one window and out the next. :rolleyes:

Second, I traded fire with one guy and they kept bouncing. Three to the chest and a number to my legs and arms. I got screamed at because I was "hit" and didn't know the rules. :rolleyes: I won't get into the fact that when I yelled back and demanded they not insult me as a cheater based on their ignorance of the rules, I challenged the other player: "So where exactly were all the shots I fired hitting?" and got silence as an answer. :mad:

[yakitori]

That is usually the case. Ive been griped at just cause someone was shooting a lane that I ran through w/o getting hit. Not even a bounce. The guy shooting was griping at the ref. "i KNOW i HAD to have hit him" :rolleyes: So, I was accused of wiping a shot that never hit, not even bounced. Just to appease the whiny guy that "swore" he hit me. When I asked him where he hit me at, and if he saw anything hit or break or bounce, he had no reply. He just had a hunch that one of his 60 or so shots landed.