The end of Paintball?

[Aslan]

So I go to a field today, different field than I normally go to. I watched a game of speedball between some amateur teams that were practicing. It got me thinking about what paintball has become and what the future holds. :ninja:

These guys were easily shooting 20bps and I have to think that the guns they were using couldn't have been too much shy of $2000. It made me think about another thread that was on the board a week or so ago where we debated how much of paintball is skill versus physical ability vs equipment. After watching a speedball match, I agree that it is mostly stragtegy/communication/skill. These guys were running plays, yelling out codes, and really knew what they were doing. I would say for speedball, 80% strategy/skill/communication; 15% physical ability; 5% equipment.

HOWEVER...I think this differs in woodsball/scenario games. About midway through the day two guys showed up, one with a shocker the other with a carnivore. They pretty much anhilated the competition. Whatever team they were on, won handedly. When they were split up, they each survived till the end and went after each other. :hail:

Now, I'm not saying that it was all equipment...there was also this tool there with some kind of electric auto thing and he was such a gump that he got hit out left and right. But here's the thing, it used to be that the worst you had to fear when showing up for a paintball game was a weekend warrier with a Tippmann flatline or a former marine with excellent technique. Now, guys show up with guns that are just heads and tails above what others are shooting and they dominate. :shooting: :shooting:

I think in that other post, I said that paintball was 70% equipment, 25% strategy/communication/technique, 5% physical skills. After what I saw today, maybe the strategy/communication/skills could be adjusted up 5% and the equipment down 5%...but I have to stand by that.

That leads me to the future of paintball. I have to say speedball is killing the game. Reasons, two:
1) How does a kid off the street get into speedball? He'll need $$$...but he'll also need a team, maybe a sponser...maybe 4-6 other guys to make a team...each of them with major $$$. It's not woodsball...you can't just jump into a game of speedball against guys with ramping markers. Your team can't take some Tippmanns and Spyders and do anything but set records for how fast they can be eliminated. :shooting:
2) Woodsball is dieing. The field I went to today has eliminated half their woods play and expanded their speedball fields. They allowed us to play woodsball but it was a longer walk and the refs obviously preferred we just play the speedball course. When we did play woodsball, the disparency between the guys with the $800 guns and the guys with the $200 guns was highly noticeable and turned off many of the first-timers. :(

Point: Without new players, the sport will die. While speedball probably appeals to generation next, it is a high priced undertaking that will limit new players. And players that want to start out in the woodsball and scenario side of things, will quickly be turned off as they are lit up by a couple guys with fancy equipment and struggle to even find fields that offer woodsball as more and more are converted to airball/speedball. :cry:

I had fun today and did okay. I can survive for awhile using strategy and a decent marker, but I hate to see so many excited young faces that went home today feeling that paintball wasn't fun because all they were was electronic gun fodder. :tard: :tard:

[onedude36]

Well for one you said you watched 'amateur' teams. amateur does not mean beginer. usually if they are amateur they have at least a few sponsors and probably know what they are doing. New players shouldn't be playing with these guys anyway. New players should play in young guns, that is what the division is for: new and younger players. Besides most fields have at least one rec ball field, which anyone can play on. Speedball wont kill paintball, just give it publicity to attract new players, then when they play, they'll realize recball is fun and fits most of them better than speedball. However the part of tournament paintaball being expensive will more than likely and in most places already has been filled with rich kids or adults who have disposable income. Overall I think it is for the good of the sport.

[hockeynoodles020]

so sad...yet, so true... :cool:

[warbeak2099]

Amateur is right under Pro. Most Amateurs aren't big enough jerks to play all out against newbies. The Am team I know is very nice. They take begginners under their wing and teach them how to be better players. So is speedball killing the sport? No, but some people's attitudes are. Thank god for teams like the guys I know.

[68magOwner]

uhh, speedball very expensive? not really, i play x ball fairly regularily with a pump, that shure dosent rack up the bills, tournament paintball, perhaps, but, we just sell what we win and its fine.

also speedball takes physical skill for shure, everyone sits and whines about "you just shoot so fast it dosent matter and its all the gun" ....do you never stop and think that you actually have to make runs and deal with those fast guns while you do it, running FAST/diving are crutial skills, and, takes some ammount of physical fitness to do effictively and consistently.

anyway, by this point im jsut rambling, so, i quit

[Aslan]

uhh, speedball very expensive? not really, i play x ball fairly regularily with a pump, that shure dosent rack up the bills, tournament paintball, perhaps, but, we just sell what we win and its fine.

also speedball takes physical skill for shure, everyone sits and whines about "you just shoot so fast it dosent matter and its all the gun" ....do you never stop and think that you actually have to make runs and deal with those fast guns while you do it, running FAST/diving are crutial skills, and, takes some ammount of physical fitness to do effictively and consistently.

anyway, by this point im jsut rambling, so, i quit

And here come the pump stories. Funny how I've yet to see someone use a pump in X-ball, scenario, or woodsball in like 2-3 years. There's no way you would stand a chance in a speedball match against ramping markers with a gun that you have to cock before firing. I can guarantee that there were no pumps on the field today.

The teams I watched may not have been "amateur" or maybe they were. They were sponsored. I know there was an Evil team out there...I think something like Draxxus and one other one, maybe Empire. They were young...some teams were teenaged, other players in their 20s and they had coaches with them. They were 7-man teams. They used so much paint that there were "piles" of it in each of the corners of the field where it had hit the netting. And each of the kids was decked out in major equipment...at least one of the teams, I think 2, actually had their trucks/vans painted with their team names or logos or sponsors or something.

Yes, they had to run and slide. That's why I said 15% physical. 5% equipment...mainly because everyone out there had virtually the same level so all it is is a matter of upkeep.

[Target Practice]

Here's hoping.

[jenarelJAM]

2 things... #1, my response to this thread, #2, my own personal life story

(#1) The first time I went paintballing, sure I was afraid that the thing would hurt and I would be sitting there for like 5 minutes untilthe pain would go away. everyone has strange fears before their first paintball game because they don't know what it will be like. It didnt keep me from playing at all though. also, there are always a few people at my local woodsball field who shoot ramping timmies etc. but I have never been shot more than 3 times unless i did something where i KNEW i would be shot beforehand. If I run down the road and they've got 8 guys sitting behind a couple rocks, i KNOW i'm going to be shot down, and i KNOW it's going to be more than just one or two shots. but i've never been sitting behind a rock and pop up, and all the guys on the other team choose that moment to unload on me. It jsut doesnt happen. even with guns shooting 15+ bps, unless you just sit there once you've been shot(your impulse is to pull back anyways), you won't get hit more than 5 times at the most, and if it's your first time, it will not be close up and bleeding welts, because nobody goes and becomes the front line on their first day. everyone always says, you guys go on ahead, i'll guard the base or something. A first timer will never be shot so badly that they won't want to come back(with the exception of young kids who can't take the single shot).
also, last tiem i checked, rec games in the woods were more than 15 players per team. 2 people w/ ramping guns in the woods will most likely not take out the entire other team by themselves, unless they are extremely good. in which case, they should not be allowwed to play with the rec people anyways. In rec ball, equipment can quite possibly have an impact on your performance. the 70% equipment, %25 strategy, and 5% teamwork thing has some merit. In any sort of small team speedball where the team has some sort of teamwork going on, i would put my money on a 5 man team with 98c's who have practiced together over a team with ions who havent. thats assuming equal skill levels per person.
if woodsball is dying, it is because woodsball is not getting the attention that it used to. those who like it will still play it, but if speedball appeals to someone, you don't want to force them to play woodsball. If you took the average rec player who plays at a speedball course, threw them into a woodsball course, I am guessing that they would be the same person who you were complaining was shooting w/ ramping and ruining woodsball. honestly, let the more "dangerous" stuff stay at speedball, and let woodsball be for first timers, scenario buffs, and those who like paintball to be more realistic.

(#2) some people have their million dollar setups because their parents got them xmas presents, but I am tired of people thinking that everyone who has a gun over $500, but doesnt play tournament ball is a rich kid. i hear it every day left and right. even if it wasnt meant to sound that way, it kidna bugs me because I am one of those kids who doesnt play tourney ball, isnt sponsored, and in fact, might not be very good at all(havent had too much chance to test myself yet). I have a gun setup upwards of $1500, and I PAYED for it MYSELF. I saved for over a year for my emag. I worked for my dad today 9 hours, came home with $90 in my pocket. I'm going to buy a pair of empire pants with it because i feel like spending my money on that. btw, my dad is a contractor, ie. Construction Guy, not a businessman paying his son $10 to lick envelopes for an hour. I plan on doing this every day during the summer mon-fri so i can buy a car, and on saturday too, so i can play paintball often enough to get good enough to start some novice tourneys or something. Lifting 50 pound boxes all day is hard work guys, some of us unskilled w/ expensive setups guys work their arses off for this sport, and I think that someone needed to say that...
feel free to :mad: away

[peewee]

Were the guys playing woodsball young or older? What I see in my area is some of the experience players that are out of the tourney scene show up & play. Usually tear it up due to experience & skill. They usually have nice equipment etc. Most you can give them a 98C & they will still tear it up. Hey!! I'm a pump guy sometime's

[Lee]

i play pump speedball against ramping markers all the time and do pretty well for the most part.

for the most part, it's not the gun, it's whats behind it.

[CaptainNeeda]

i play pump speedball against ramping markers all the time and do pretty well for the most part.

for the most part, it's not the gun, it's whats behind it.



I wish I had your faith, but yes, I agree...

[slade]

*sigh*

Aslan, how long have you been playing?

[yakitori]

well at least you realize and agree that the speedballers you watched had a lot of skill. Its not thier equipment that matters. That is a good observation. Most ppl who see it just complain about the fast guns doing all the work. Ill promise you that most of the guns were not 2000. DM4s these days go for 750-850 even w/ some ups.

I dont think woodsball will die. I know a lot of guys that play woodball on their own on their own property w/ their friends. They just dont want to pay so much money to go play in the woods when they can get some friends together and do it themselves and have just as much fun. :D I dont think its because fast guns are ruining the sport and ppl dont want to go anymore. Its just to dang overpriced at some fields.

[cdacda13]

I play speedball with my tippmann.

[mags247]

I play tourney ball and rec ball. It's a great way to practice. For the most part we try to get kids interested inthe sport. When I play rec ball I use my mag or My shocker with the ramping off. It's very important to NOT overshoot someone because you can. Rec ball is a great way to practice your communication and snap shooting. It also is a great way to show the noobs what they can become just by using their own equipment if they can find a couple of others who show up every week and are willing to communicate. We took a group of kids out there with some Espyders and showed them some stuff. They got the hang of it very quickly. Motivated kid does not seem to have the fear of getting hit (unless it's there first day) and running diving and sliding. But what they all seem to lack from the get go is communication. With help and patience from experienced players we seem to get more people interested. The amount of paint you shoot only matters in Tourneys. When kids get their skill levels up the amount they are willing to spend on the sport increases because they want to be competitive.

In fact our group of newbs began to get confident and wanted to start slinging paint. We cleared it with the owner of our field and let them play with there guns on full auto (but could only burst shoot) against our ramping shockers. They loved it. They could begin to hold lanes closed. That added to what they learned made them pretty good.

Paintball is not dying by any means. It is your responsibilty as the experienced player to show the newbs how to play. If you just destroy them there first time out......they aren't coming back. If you show them how to play and be competitive with what they have, they will comeback every week.

Mags247

[yakitori]

I play tourney ball and rec ball. It's a great way to practice. For the most part we try to get kids interested inthe sport. When I play rec ball I use my mag or My shocker with the ramping off. It's very important to NOT overshoot someone because you can. Rec ball is a great way to practice your communication and snap shooting. It also is a great way to show the noobs what they can become just by using their own equipment if they can find a couple of others who show up every week and are willing to communicate. We took a group of kids out there with some Espyders and showed them some stuff. They got the hang of it very quickly. Motivated kid does not seem to have the fear of getting hit (unless it's there first day) and running diving and sliding. But what they all seem to lack from the get go is communication. With help and patience from experienced players we seem to get more people interested. The amount of paint you shoot only matters in Tourneys. When kids get their skill levels up the amount they are willing to spend on the sport increases because they want to be competitive.

In fact our group of newbs began to get confident and wanted to start slinging paint. We cleared it with the owner of our field and let them play with there guns on full auto (but could only burst shoot) against our ramping shockers. They loved it. They could begin to hold lanes closed. That added to what they learned made them pretty good.

Paintball is not dying by any means. It is your responsibilty as the experienced player to show the newbs how to play. If you just destroy them there first time out......they aren't coming back. If you show them how to play and be competitive with what they have, they will comeback every week.

Mags247

good post.

[Aslan]

if woodsball is dying, it is because woodsball is not getting the attention that it used to. those who like it will still play it, but if speedball appeals to someone, you don't want to force them to play woodsball. If you took the average rec player who plays at a speedball course, threw them into a woodsball course, I am guessing that they would be the same person who you were complaining was shooting w/ ramping and ruining woodsball. honestly, let the more "dangerous" stuff stay at speedball, and let woodsball be for first timers, scenario buffs, and those who like paintball to be more realistic.

I wasn't making a case for forcing speedball players to play woodsball, the would be rediculous and impossible. If people want to play speedball, all the more power to them. But as courses continue to limit options to "only" speedball, it is no longer a choice and newbs, rec players, and other woodsball guys/gals are forced into finding someone's backyard. Backyard ball is nice, I love playing on someone's property with a pump and a 45 round hopper...it's cheap, there are rarely attitude problems, and everybody is fairly even with equipment. That being said, if you're new to the sport and would like to start playing...ya better know a guy that knows a guy that has a big backyard...that'll be the only option once speedball dominates. :cry:

I know people, even kids, sometimes work very hard to save up enough money for equipment...I didn't mean to generalize...sorry about that. :tard:

[Aslan]

i play pump speedball against ramping markers all the time and do pretty well for the most part.

for the most part, it's not the gun, it's whats behind it.

Would it be possible to limit posts to reality based discussions. If you guys (pumps vs the world) are so common...why haven't I seen ONE of you bada$$es at the field? Why wasn't ONE of the players on any of three amateur teams using a pump? Why aren't there pro teams set up with pumps? :confused:

Furthermore, why would anyone even have invented a semi-auto? If pumps are the bomb...a semi-auto is just an inaccurate waste of paint. And to take that a step further...why are all the new markers coming out electric...burst...full-auto...electric hopper...etc...??? :ninja:

You should write a letter to the gun companies explaining that they should stop making this junk because it's just plain un necessary and any self-respecting tournament player (who is yet to be seen) would rather use pumps. We could actually get rid of all guns except Tiger Sharks (I would say Talons, but then the fields would be littered with those da&n CO2 cannisters and it would be an envirnmental/safety concern). :cheers:

Before you pull out your FLAMEthrower...I love pumps...I wish everybody used pumps...the most fun I have is in a backyard woods area with friends using pumps with 45 round hoppers/limits. We've even played "civil war" where you can use semi-autos but have to load one round at a time (no hoppers) and that was a blast. I'm certainly not blasting pumps...I'm just saying that people keep talking about (on numerous threads) how they are so good they use pumps against ramping markers and they win 1000 tournaments a year, etc... but I have YET to see any pumps show up for even woodsball...much less speedball and after watching the speedball teams practice where there was literally a WALL of paint flying in each direction...it just doesn't seem realistic unless you have some special pump that you can press a "full-auto" button or something...in which case...NOT a pump. :hail:

[Aslan]

*sigh*

Aslan, how long have you been playing?


**sigh**
3-5 years, how bout yourself...
**sigh**

[Pyroboy597]

simple solution to the price problem... get an ion... they are a little more than a nice spyder, and less than some A-5's. some pros even use them. i own one and it shoots 10x better than my mag does. And it was a third of the price.

[Aslan]

well at least you realize and agree that the speedballers you watched had a lot of skill. Its not thier equipment that matters. That is a good observation. Most ppl who see it just complain about the fast guns doing all the work. Ill promise you that most of the guns were not 2000. DM4s these days go for 750-850 even w/ some ups.

I dont think woodsball will die. I know a lot of guys that play woodball on their own on their own property w/ their friends. They just dont want to pay so much money to go play in the woods when they can get some friends together and do it themselves and have just as much fun. :D I dont think its because fast guns are ruining the sport and ppl dont want to go anymore. Its just to dang overpriced at some fields.

Agreed. I think the other part of it (however) is that fields are starting to transition to speedball and woodsball fields are dying. Pretty soon there will be airball fields next to country shopping malls and the only woodsball fields will be a few scattered scenario fields charging $500 per weekend and those will just be filled with speedball players anyway. It's sad. :( :cry:

[slade]

stop with the anti-speedball attitude. theres nothing wrong with speedball, i started out on a speedball field and played there a half dozen times before even seeing a woodsball field. speedball is fine for newbs, they just have to play with other newbs. its the same with woodsball, new players have to start out with other new players. if your field doesnt seperate newbs and amateur teams at practice, then it has a problem. and if, as you said, speedball begins to dominate, it is because people like speedball and thats what they want to play, and often that is what they started out playing.

oh and by the way, the last time i saw a pump on the field (and it was an xball field, mind you) was just a few weeks ago.

http://www.creativemayhem.com/AONE%20Gallery/images/AONE7%20(20).jpg
http://www.creativemayhem.com/AONE%20Gallery/images/AONE7%20(37).jpg

*edit* and also if you'll look around AO, you will see plenty of people who own phantoms or pump cockers, or even RRfireblade who just made (and used) a pump karnivore.

[mags247]

Oooh Reply to mine next.....

[JMAN]

The cheaper paint becomes the more people will gravitate towards speedball. I only play WoodsBall and although I love it, I'm sure SpeedBall would be just as, if not more fun. The main obstacle isn't equipment--that's a one time investment--it is the amount of money needed to keep up paint-wise. :cry:

[Aslan]

When I play rec ball I use my mag or My shocker with the ramping off... We took a group of kids out there with some Espyders and showed them some stuff... The amount of paint you shoot only matters in Tourneys. When kids get their skill levels up the amount they are willing to spend on the sport increases because they want to be competitive.

In fact our group of newbs began to get confident and wanted to start slinging paint. We cleared it with the owner of our field and let them play with there guns on full auto (but could only burst shoot) against our ramping shockers. They loved it. They could begin to hold lanes closed. That added to what they learned made them pretty good.

Paintball is not dying by any means. It is your responsibilty as the experienced player to show the newbs how to play. If you just destroy them there first time out......they aren't coming back. If you show them how to play and be competitive with what they have, they will comeback every week.

Mags247

I like what you said about helping kids with the communication...I really need to do more of that. I usually get frustrated by newbie kids because they do stupid stuff rather than try to explain what they should do. Like, in a game yesterday, I was holding down one side of the field and our middle anf left side was collapsing. 3 kids came running back and hid behind an obstacle. I told them they needed to fire at the guys coming up the middle and left because I couldn't hold down all 3 sides. They just sat their hiding. Another kid came running up to where I was and hid. I told him I needed help, I couldn't hold everybody alone and I was running low on CO2. He offered to let me borrow his CO2 tank and he was going to call himself out. Out of frustration (and lack of air and a jamming gun and me being the last real player alive), I just called myself out. :cuss:

But as to the rest of your post, you sort of made my point for me. You talk about equipping kids with E-Spyders and having everybody go at it with bursts. You started out talking about how you showed them the tactics and strategy...but also said they would want to spend more money on equipment to stay competitive. Why would they need to buy ramping markers or electric supermachines to stay competitive in woodsball if you showed them the strategy involved? :confused:

Strategy and skill make the difference in speedball...because everyone has the same marker (essentially). Equipment makes the difference in woodsball because the equipment can differ so much between players. After what happened yesterday, I sort of like the other field's policy about advanced and novice classes where a novice player cannot use nitro, compressed air, have an electric gun or electric trigger, or use an electric hopper. I have a couple problems with that policy because:
A) It sort of forces automags out because they run so poorly on CO2 when really a Classic Mag isn't the same advantage as an E-Spyder or Shocker or Angel...it just runs better on nitro.
B) Guys with certain guns (like Tippmanns with flatlines) manage to find their way into novice class even though their guns give them a bit of advantage ov er field guns and stock guns.

But I'd take the classes over "open walk on" any day after what happened yesterday. I'd also favor velocity locks and random chrono testing. :shooting:
B)

[slade]

**sigh**
3-5 years, how bout yourself...
**sigh**
2+ years, over a year seriously.

has that 3-5 years been on and off, once every other month in backyards or rec ball fields? because (no offense intended, of course, im not trying to flame) you sound like youre new to the sport. "These guys were easily shooting 20bps"... its rare that someone can actually sustain more than 15 bps for any significant length of time, or average over 16 or 17. theres plenty of proof of that here on AO. and ramping, full auto, burst, trigger bounce, etc should be illegal at your field... if its not, find a new field.

you also keep saying things like "some kind of electric auto thing" and considering you dont know the name, and you say "auto" (which would be illegal) it makes you sound like a newb. that and the fact that you are saying things like "speedball is killing the sport" makes you sound like you tried speedball for the first time, had bad refs that put you with experienced players with electros, and didnt do that well. plus youre a 2k5er.

"How does a kid off the street get into speedball? He'll need $$$...but he'll also need a team, maybe a sponser...maybe 4-6 other guys to make a team...each of them with major $$$."

umm... the kid gets some of his friends together, goes to the field, rents gear, buys paint, and plays with his friends. either that or he just goes to the field and finds people of comparable skill. he can just play slowly and over a few years works his way up the equipment and skill ladder until hes ready to play with more experienced players. maybe he can get picked up by a team or start a team with his friends. thats what i did. you dont need a team to play speedball, most fields allow just walk on play and maybe have one day a week for team practices.

one other thing though.

"I would say for speedball, 80% strategy/skill/communication; 15% physical ability; 5% equipment."

"I think in that other post, I said that paintball was 70% equipment, 25% strategy/communication/technique, 5% physical skills. After what I saw today, maybe the strategy/communication/skills could be adjusted up 5% and the equipment down 5%...but I have to stand by that."

so in the same post, you said that:
paintball is 80% strategy/skill, 15% physical, and 5% equipment, and then
paintball is 30% strategy/skill, 5% physical, and 65% equipment.

so which is it? thats quite a difference.

[Aslan]

stop with the anti-speedball attitude. theres nothing wrong with speedball...if, as you said, speedball begins to dominate, it is because people like speedball and thats what they want to play, and often that is what they started out playing.

oh and by the way, the last time i saw a pump on the field (and it was an xball field, mind you) was just a few weeks ago.

*edit* and also if you'll look around AO, you will see plenty of people who own phantoms or pump cockers, or even RRfireblade who just made (and used) a pump karnivore.

A) My opinion after yesterday is anti-speedball, it's my opinion...you're free to end you membership in my fan club at anytime.
B) Speedball will dominate because X-Ball is cheaper and easier for fields to set up. You can set X-Ball courses up anywhere and take them down in 30 minutes. X-Ball is easier for fields, not preferred by new players. However, if it's all that's there...I guess you play it.
C) Still haven't seen the pump against ramping markers thing. If it was a team of pumps and standard guns against another team of pumps and standard guns, I guess that's different.
D) Okay, you're talking about $600 pumps upgraded right? I'm assuming these pumps work quite differently than a standard pump? I only assume that because why would you pay that amount for a pump that works EXACTLY the same as a Tracer or Maverick that you can pick up for $50? I'm assuming that the pumps you are talking about probably have some features that make them a bit more than a "pump"?

[mags247]

But as to the rest of your post, you sort of made my point for me. You talk about equipping kids with E-Spyders and having everybody go at it with bursts. You started out talking about how you showed them the tactics and strategy...but also said they would want to spend more money on equipment to stay competitive. Why would they need to buy ramping markers or electric supermachines to stay competitive in woodsball if you showed them the strategy involved? :confused:

Strategy and skill make the difference in speedball...because everyone has the same marker (essentially). Equipment makes the difference in woodsball because the equipment can differ so much between players. After what happened yesterday, I sort of like the other field's policy about advanced and novice classes where a novice player cannot use nitro, compressed air, have an electric gun or electric trigger, or use an electric hopper. I have a couple problems with that policy because:
A) It sort of forces automags out because they run so poorly on CO2 when really a Classic Mag isn't the same advantage as an E-Spyder or Shocker or Angel...it just runs better on nitro.
B) Guys with certain guns (like Tippmanns with flatlines) manage to find their way into novice class even though their guns give them a bit of advantage ov er field guns and stock guns.

But I'd take the classes over "open walk on" any day after what happened yesterday. I'd also favor velocity locks and random chrono testing. :shooting:
B)

I will agree that it woodsball you dont need a high end gun. I use a tippman for that stuff.

I guess I should have clarified. Most people start of playing some type of woodsball (one shot one kill) however they will eventually make it over to a rec ball field one day. Some people like myself enjoy Speedball because it is more of a sport with rules. Not just a rec sport. In speed ball you can look at the other teams from the sidelines and try to pick up on what they are doing.

Maybe woodsball is seing a decline but I see more people at my local field everyweek. I think that means the sport is growing. My field has Woodsball and Airball fields. I sit out the Woods games because they take like 20-25 min. I like the brutal instant contact of Speedball. It's all preference...........

[slade]

A) My opinion after yesterday is anti-speedball, it's my opinion...you're free to end you membership in my fan club at anytime.
B) Speedball will dominate because X-Ball is cheaper and easier for fields to set up. You can set X-Ball courses up anywhere and take them down in 30 minutes. X-Ball is easier for fields, not preferred by new players. However, if it's all that's there...I guess you play it.
C) Still haven't seen the pump against ramping markers thing. If it was a team of pumps and standard guns against another team of pumps and standard guns, I guess that's different.
D) Okay, you're talking about $600 pumps upgraded right? I'm assuming these pumps work quite differently than a standard pump? I only assume that because why would you pay that amount for a pump that works EXACTLY the same as a Tracer or Maverick that you can pick up for $50? I'm assuming that the pumps you are talking about probably have some features that make them a bit more than a "pump"?
umm, sorry but woodsball is a lot easier to set up than an xball field. for an xball field you have to first clear the land, level it, measure out everything, set up telephone poles for netting surrounding the field, then buy 3-6 thousand dollars of bunkers for each field, then each day blow up all the bunkers, set them up and at the end of the day clean off the paint, and deflate them. for woodsball, you go into the woods and use whatever you can get for free - sticks, branches, pallets, spools, etc and maybe spend some money on plywood and nails. then you just leave it and use it whenever you want. it doesnt even have to have netting because you walk a couple hundred feet before you get to the playing area. xball is a lot harder to make and set up, and that is why paintball started with woodsball. its more popular now because people prefer it.

i cant be positive, but im pretty sure some of those people played with their pumps against electros... and no, they were NOT ramping because for the last time that is illegal at most fields.

im talking about pumps anywhere from $200 to $1500. they pay that because thats what they want and they have the money. and no, the majority of the pumps you will see on AO are stock class legal or at least stock class modified. there are auto triggers or pneumatic assist pumps but most are just regular pumps.

[Aslan]

2+ years, over a year seriously.

has that 3-5 years been on and off, once every other month in backyards or rec ball fields? because (no offense intended, of course, im not trying to flame) you sound like youre new to the sport. "These guys were easily shooting 20bps"... its rare that someone can actually sustain more than 15 bps for any significant length of time, or average over 16 or 17. theres plenty of proof of that here on AO. and ramping, full auto, burst, trigger bounce, etc should be illegal at your field... if its not, find a new field.

you also keep saying things like "some kind of electric auto thing" and considering you dont know the name, and you say "auto" (which would be illegal) it makes you sound like a newb. that and the fact that you are saying things like "speedball is killing the sport" makes you sound like you tried speedball for the first time, had bad refs that put you with experienced players with electros, and didnt do that well. plus youre a 2k5er.

"How does a kid off the street get into speedball? He'll need $$$...but he'll also need a team, maybe a sponser...maybe 4-6 other guys to make a team...each of them with major $$$."

umm... the kid gets some of his friends together, goes to the field, rents gear, buys paint, and plays with his friends. either that or he just goes to the field and finds people of comparable skill. he can just play slowly and over a few years works his way up the equipment and skill ladder until hes ready to play with more experienced players. maybe he can get picked up by a team or start a team with his friends. thats what i did. you dont need a team to play speedball, most fields allow just walk on play and maybe have one day a week for team practices.

one other thing though.

"I would say for speedball, 80% strategy/skill/communication; 15% physical ability; 5% equipment."

"I think in that other post, I said that paintball was 70% equipment, 25% strategy/communication/technique, 5% physical skills. After what I saw today, maybe the strategy/communication/skills could be adjusted up 5% and the equipment down 5%...but I have to stand by that."

so in the same post, you said that:
paintball is 80% strategy/skill, 15% physical, and 5% equipment, and then
paintball is 30% strategy/skill, 5% physical, and 65% equipment.

so which is it? thats quite a difference.

Where do I start? probably 5 years, montly to bi-monthly...not every other weekend. Never played indoor, watched it on TV acouple times. Yet to play scenario...allthough I talked to alot of people that have. Played X-ball for the first time this past weekend, seen it played before but I paid more attention this time around. :ninja:

I didn't time their rate of fire. It seemed like around 20. To me, if your up around 15-16...it might as well be 30....

I didn't inspect their markers or go to each player and ask what they were using...so I called them whatever I called them...auto, ramping, electro, crazy monster guns...whatever. Either way I go, it'll cause flamethrowing...because if I say they were going crazy with "Gun X" then all the "Gun X" owners will flame.

If you read the post more carefully, I talked about speedball being 80% skill because all the equipment is so similar. Woodsball/Rec ball would be 65% equipment because the difference between players guns can be great where as (like you said) players playing speedball against each other usually have similar equipment.

If by slade criteria I'm a newb to paintball, so be it...I can't fight the man. :bounce:

[Deltree]

Speedball is actually cheaper for me to play than woodsball. in an average speedball game i probably use a hopper and maybe a pod if it gets to be a bit longer. In the woods since the games are so drawn out i find myself wasting a halo and 4 160 round pods in a single game. I can play an entire day of speedball on less than 1 case of paint but when i play in the woods i normally have to buy two cases. Woodsball got expensive enough for me that i just don't bring my angel into the woods anymore and just use my pgp because I don't want to waste all that paint.

[Aslan]

I will agree that it woodsball you dont need a high end gun. I use a tippman for that stuff.

I guess I should have clarified. Most people start of playing some type of woodsball (one shot one kill) however they will eventually make it over to a rec ball field one day. Some people like myself enjoy Speedball because it is more of a sport with rules. Not just a rec sport. In speed ball you can look at the other teams from the sidelines and try to pick up on what they are doing.

Maybe woodsball is seing a decline but I see more people at my local field everyweek. I think that means the sport is growing. My field has Woodsball and Airball fields. I sit out the Woods games because they take like 20-25 min. I like the brutal instant contact of Speedball. It's all preference...........

I agree. I actually played both. I enjoyed the X-Ball course in the morning when we had 2-4 people per team and the guns were balanced. In both early games I was the last one on my team standing and in one of them I took the 3 opposing players out single-handedly...it was fun. I prefer woodsball...most of the rec players there actually tried the X-Ball but preferred the woodsball...despite wet terrain and massive mosquito swarms. BRING BUG SPRAY...important. Later in the day, the refs tried putting like 15 player teams on the X-Ball course and that was just stupid...it wasn't fun at all.

Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team. But as I started "prophecizing", it just seemed to spell doom for paintball as far as I could see. And I wasn't alone. Alot of the newbs that were there..and there were alot because of two private parties of primarily young players...really got scared off my the amateur teams practicing. It's easy to watch those practices and say, "I'll never be able to spend $2000 on equipment and go through 3-5 cases in practice and pay $750 entry fees and do all the stuff you need to compete at that level. Many of the people exposed to that don't think, "well, maybe they have an entry level class..." or "well, these guys have sponsors, that's why they can afford that stuff"; they just think the sport is unreachable and maybe they should focus on something more realistic.

[Aslan]

umm, sorry but woodsball is a lot easier to set up than an xball field. for an xball field you have to first clear the land, level it, measure out everything, set up telephone poles for netting surrounding the field, then buy 3-6 thousand dollars of bunkers for each field, then each day blow up all the bunkers, set them up and at the end of the day clean off the paint, and deflate them. for woodsball, you go into the woods and use whatever you can get for free - sticks, branches, pallets, spools, etc and maybe spend some money on plywood and nails. then you just leave it and use it whenever you want. it doesnt even have to have netting because you walk a couple hundred feet before you get to the playing area. xball is a lot harder to make and set up, and that is why paintball started with woodsball. its more popular now because people prefer it.

i cant be positive, but im pretty sure some of those people played with their pumps against electros... and no, they were NOT ramping because for the last time that is illegal at most fields.

im talking about pumps anywhere from $200 to $1500. they pay that because thats what they want and they have the money. and no, the majority of the pumps you will see on AO are stock class legal or at least stock class modified. there are auto triggers or pneumatic assist pumps but most are just regular pumps.

Whatever. Next time you get a paintball magazine, check out the classifides where companies avertise that they will come to your house, business, etc.. and set up an X-Ball field for an outing or party. I hope they don't come in and level land... :eek:

Wait...I need schooling on this...did you say that the only advantage to a high-end pump is that people want to pay more money for them? "..they pay that because that's what they want and they have the money." Well, that's sort of illogical...but okay. :confused:



there are auto triggers or pneumatic assist pumps but most are just regular pumps.

What? So you have a pump...but you don't pump it. Pneumatic assist...isn't that a semi-auto? Auto triggers...on a pump? Let's get this straight...a "pump" is a gun that when you pull the horizontal foregrip back, it loads ONE ball. Then, you fire it. Then, you start the process again. A gun where you don't have to do those things, by definition, can't be a "pump". Maybe that's why everyone disagrees with me about pumps vs. electros...because their using electros and calling them pumps...confusing. :confused:

[mags247]

Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team. But as I started "prophecizing", it just seemed to spell doom for paintball as far as I could see. And I wasn't alone. Alot of the newbs that were there..and there were alot because of two private parties of primarily young players...really got scared off my the amateur teams practicing. It's easy to watch those practices and say, "I'll never be able to spend $2000 on equipment and go through 3-5 cases in practice and pay $750 entry fees and do all the stuff you need to compete at that level. Many of the people exposed to that don't think, "well, maybe they have an entry level class..." or "well, these guys have sponsors, that's why they can afford that stuff"; they just think the sport is unreachable and maybe they should focus on something more realistic.

Don't be affraid, Your local filed should always have a following. Speedball is taking off and others should'nt be discouraged because they can't afford it. Do what you can on your rec ball field. The whole point of paintball is to have fun, once you start trying to keep up with what the other guys are doing you have successfully lost the focus of what you are doing. Just have fun.

[yakitori]

I would also like to add that because woodsball is declining you your regional location doesnt mean that it is dying in the whole sport of paintball. I have seen huge crowds go to the field that I began on . It is 15years old field and mostly woods. They are just now adding a speedball field this year. I have seen teams as large as 40 vs 40 maybe more, on a big wooded field. It varies based on season, interests, and location. That doesnt mean the "the whole woodsball community is dying worldwide" Maybe it is just your location. I think speedball fields are easier to set up and ref, and personally I enjoy speedball the most. But, when I take someone paintballing for their first trip, I usually take them to the field that I began. Its easier competetion, they dont like getting lit up the first time they play and its easier for them to learn certain techniques. They seem to enjoy it. A lot of ppl that watch the xball game w/ paintslingers wouldnt even try to step on the field against them. They are intimidated. I dont blame them.

[skife]

Whatever. Next time you get a paintball magazine, check out the classifides where companies avertise that they will come to your house, business, etc.. and set up an X-Ball field for an outing or party. I hope they don't come in and level land... :eek:

Wait...I need schooling on this...did you say that the only advantage to a high-end pump is that people want to pay more money for them? "..they pay that because that's what they want and they have the money." Well, that's sort of illogical...but okay. :confused:




What? So you have a pump...but you don't pump it. Pneumatic assist...isn't that a semi-auto? Auto triggers...on a pump? Let's get this straight...a "pump" is a gun that when you pull the horizontal foregrip back, it loads ONE ball. Then, you fire it. Then, you start the process again. A gun where you don't have to do those things, by definition, can't be a "pump". Maybe that's why everyone disagrees with me about pumps vs. electros...because their using electros and calling them pumps...confusing. :confused:



pnumatic assist uses rams and 3way valves to cock the gun, so the pump stroke is about an inch. :P

autotriggering is when you hold the trigger down and pump and the gun just shoots like that.

[slasherdan]

And here come the pump stories. Funny how I've yet to see someone use a pump in X-ball, scenario, or woodsball in like 2-3 years. There's no way you would stand a chance in a speedball match against ramping markers with a gun that you have to cock before firing. I can guarantee that there were no pumps on the field today.



You don't see pumps in your area because the players in your area allow themselves to be intimadated by other players markers ... so they believe they need them too ...

I'm part of the Gunfighters club. All we use are Stock Class....

Everytime we go to a field there is always some "pro"/"beginner" ... WHATEVER team there that desides to challenge us after a few games.

Each time we beat them hands down.

Does that mean we're better???? Maybe more disciplined .... the groups we play against are good and I dont want to come across as saying they suck ... But we prove on a consistant basis that it isn't a game of BPS ....

And if you don't believe me you can even do search for some MPG of a X-Ball team out in cali that won their division ..... three of the 5 guys had pumps and they were all the runners ... :hail:

[slade]

Speedball is actually cheaper for me to play than woodsball. in an average speedball game i probably use a hopper and maybe a pod if it gets to be a bit longer. In the woods since the games are so drawn out i find myself wasting a halo and 4 160 round pods in a single game. I can play an entire day of speedball on less than 1 case of paint but when i play in the woods i normally have to buy two cases. Woodsball got expensive enough for me that i just don't bring my angel into the woods anymore and just use my pgp because I don't want to waste all that paint.
agreed. i waste so much more paint on woodsball, waste a lot more time just wandering around and overall it isnt fun at all for me. in speedball i shoot less than a case a day and when im low on paint, have been able to go up to 5 games on one hopper, and still last whole games and get people out. and this is 5+ man teams against other tourney players.


I agree. I actually played both. I enjoyed the X-Ball course in the morning when we had 2-4 people per team and the guns were balanced. In both early games I was the last one on my team standing and in one of them I took the 3 opposing players out single-handedly...it was fun. I prefer woodsball...most of the rec players there actually tried the X-Ball but preferred the woodsball...despite wet terrain and massive mosquito swarms. BRING BUG SPRAY...important. Later in the day, the refs tried putting like 15 player teams on the X-Ball course and that was just stupid...it wasn't fun at all.

Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team. But as I started "prophecizing", it just seemed to spell doom for paintball as far as I could see. And I wasn't alone. Alot of the newbs that were there..and there were alot because of two private parties of primarily young players...really got scared off my the amateur teams practicing. It's easy to watch those practices and say, "I'll never be able to spend $2000 on equipment and go through 3-5 cases in practice and pay $750 entry fees and do all the stuff you need to compete at that level. Many of the people exposed to that don't think, "well, maybe they have an entry level class..." or "well, these guys have sponsors, that's why they can afford that stuff"; they just think the sport is unreachable and maybe they should focus on something more realistic.
well of course when someone plays rec for a year or two and then tries speedball, theyre used to rec so they wont be used to speedball and wont like it as much the first time. and yeah, i hate it when refs put too many players on a team... last time they tried 10 man teams on a 5 man field. next time ask them if they can split it up and run two seperate games, thats what they do at one of my fields. and they should split it so the tourney players are together and the rec players are together. and as i have explained numerous times, speedball does NOT spell doom for paintball for many reasons. and anyway those new players shouldnt be playing with the tourney players, so it shouldnt concern them. just play and have fun by yourself! work your way up. and it doesnt cost nearly as much as youre saying. my freestyle cost me $460 shipped, halo and tank about $250, decent quality barrel $30, and maybe $70 for a unimount, macroline, o-ring kit, lube, etc. and i guess that does add up, but i bought that over 2 years. i started out with a rental and then a year of speedball with a $200 spyder and co2 i got off ebay, ricochet hopper and stock barrel. and as i said, i average less than a case a day and the last tourney i entered cost around $250 for the team... i think it was around $70 for enterance and paint for me.

but anyway, ive never seen a single newb who has looked at experienced players and thought that it cost too much, they could never be like that, etc... they just thought they were good players with expensive equipment theyve accumulated over the years, and wished they could be like them. and they kept on playing with other newbs.


Whatever. Next time you get a paintball magazine, check out the classifides where companies avertise that they will come to your house, business, etc.. and set up an X-Ball field for an outing or party. I hope they don't come in and level land...
never seen an ad like that. but at 2 of the 3 outdoor speedball fields ive been to, the land its on used to be woods. they cut down the trees, tore the stumps out of the ground, measured everything out, leveled the field out, put in telephone polls and netting and then bought the bunkers. even if there is already a field there, you still need the netting and you have to set up the bunkers each time.


Wait...I need schooling on this...did you say that the only advantage to a high-end pump is that people want to pay more money for them? "..they pay that because that's what they want and they have the money." Well, that's sort of illogical...but okay.
i didnt say it was an advantage. i was saying people may spend $1500 on a pump because its exactly what they want and they have the money for it. but its still a pump.

pneumatic assist is exactly what it sounds like, it shortens the pump stroke by having a 3-way that cocks the marker. its like an autococker, except the 3-way is attached to a pump on the front of the marker instead of attached to the trigger.

auto trigger is where you hold the trigger and pump the marker, and it will fire for every pump stroke. its fairly similar to semi-auto, in ROF at least.


oh yeah, and before anyone brings up overshooting, the most ive ever been lit up has been on a woodsball field.

[Smakman]

2) Woodsball is dieing.

Not happening. When I began hosting big games in 2001, I drew 50 players and mine was the only scenario within at least 100 miles and one of only a handful being hosted within 200-300 miles. I drew about 50 players for that first event. Now there are dozens of games per year, most of them drawing over 100 players, mine has grown to nearly 400 players per event. I know of 3 or 4 groups in the immediate area who meet frequently to play in the woods and their numbers keep growing. I don't know if woodsball is growing as fast as speedball, but it is definately growing in this region, not dieing.

[Jaan]

You know, I'd like to see a cross between the fast action of speedball and the more adventurous aspects of woodsball and scenario. Personally I think speedball is boring ... yeah I know what you're thinking but it's too much of the same, symmetrical friends and all that. What I always liked about playing renegade and why I play it so often was finding new cool places to play and having many more options. My friends *still* talk about an old abandoned fish processing plant in the woods we used to play at with a partially collapsed roof. I want to feel like I'm in the middle of Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars, Unreal Tournament and The Road Warrior. That's what I want, and I want it now. Damn it. (c:

[shartley]

well of course when someone plays rec for a year or two and then tries speedball, theyre used to rec so they wont be used to speedball and wont like it as much the first time.
Since when did speedball get elevated to a different level than any other “rec” game? What makes something “rec” or not is not the type of game that is being played, but the purpose it is being played for.


Speedball is definitely more of a sport...and I liked that...and I had fun playing it in a couple games and I wouldn't even mind playing in an entry level tournament with some friends on a team.
More of a sport? Speedball is a type of GAME in the sport of Paintball. Read my above comment as it applies to this quote as well.


1) How does a kid off the street get into speedball?
The same as they get into any type of paintball format. Read my other two comments, as they apply to this as well.

2) Woodsball is dieing.
No it isn’t. As pointed out by another member, how things may look in one area of the country is not necessarily an indication as to how things are all over. Woodsball will never die, and there are countless reasons why.


Furthermore, why would anyone even have invented a semi-auto? If pumps are the bomb...a semi-auto is just an inaccurate waste of paint. And to take that a step further...why are all the new markers coming out electric...burst...full-auto...electric hopper...etc...???
Why did they come out with CA? Why does anything come out with newer things? Does that mean the older things are worthless? Do police departments still use pump action shotguns? Why? Bah… the argument is not really worth having.

I could go on and on (as some have seen me do in the past) and point out all the things wrong in this thread, but I will not. But I WILL point out that I think some people are confusing types of games with reasons for playing. Speedball is not in itself NOT a rec game. From reading the thread I think folks mean TOURNAMENT PLAY vs REC PLAY, not “speedball” VS “rec” since the vast majority of speedball players ARE rec players.


Personally I think speedball is boring ...
And I agree. I have yet to watch a speedball game that got me on the edge of my seat…. Even the big tournaments shown on TV. Yawn……. But I do admit that one of the most exciting games I played was a cross between speedball and woodsball played on “Bear’s Trap” at Adventure Games Paintball in Weare, NH. But standard speedball is just not my thing.

However, I am sure diehard speedball players would not get a rush playing the types of games I like playing. And that is fine, and GREAT….. that is why we have so many types of games and formats in paintball. It’s all good.
:clap: :cheers:

[drg]

It's not going to be a silver bullet or anything, but here's one idea. What if within an X-ball type format, limited paint were implemented. Not super limited, but maybe like a total limit on paint per half. That would mean the early games would be fast and frantic and the later games could come down to a very different style of play. At the least it would vary the kind of games you see, even if they are on a speedball field.

I think in the end the less paint in the air, the more exciting a game is as players can move more and pull more "plays" off. I mean as it is the most exciting part of a speedball game is the closing aspect. This way no matter how far the state of the art moves with respect to guns, there will always be a natural limit, which can be exploited by a well practiced team with less money.

Maybe that's not the point of this thread but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Aslan]

Don't be affraid, Your local filed should always have a following. Speedball is taking off and others should'nt be discouraged because they can't afford it. Do what you can on your rec ball field. The whole point of paintball is to have fun, once you start trying to keep up with what the other guys are doing you have successfully lost the focus of what you are doing. Just have fun.

I wasn't making a "money arguement"...that's an entirely different topic regarding how expensive the sport has gotten. What I was saying is that, other than players that just play behind their house a few times a year or go to their local field for a special event once in awhile, many players would like to get into paintball and work their way into more competitive aspects where they can form teams and play in real tournaments and/or competitive matches. All I was saying is that if people with those types of ideas go see a speedball practice where people are using thousands of dollars worth of equipment and going through hundreds of dollars in paint. That's all. I guess I'm not so much argueing against speedball...I'm really more making a suggestion that paintball fields and the paintball community do a better job to:

1) Attract new players.
2) Offer a fun and safe environment.
3) Provide players with economical options.
4) Provide players the possibility that as their skills increase, they can in some way work their way into more and more competitive environments.

Right now, I see the sport getting so expensive that new players aren't as attracted as they used to be. The resale on the guns is low enough that used ones are inexpensive (relatively) to pick up...but field prices and paint policies are going up and up. I've also seen more and more reviews of fields where the staff is seen as often times incompetant and uninterested. Refs don't seem to want to be there and some fields (certainly not all) have gotten very lazy about setting up fun games with new players and experienced players separated appropriately and guns regulated (chrono) properly. They seem to be fairly strict about goggles...but that doesn't matter when I'm getting hit in the face mask and coming home with 3-4 cracks in my lens. :mad:

Gun companies also need to do their part. If the lowest priced marker that a player can have a decent shot with using at the field is over $200, players will be forced to either rent guns (not as fun as having your own baby) or buy $115 guns that aren't worth $40 (Brass Eagle, Winchester, etc...). Tippmann has kept this in mind and pretty much dominated as of late. WGP has even introduced their lower priced version autococker (Trilogy?). More gun makers need to offer larger ranges of products, not just focus on 2-3 "supermarkers". And all parties with interest in paintball (stores, fields, gun companies, accessory companies, paintball makers) need to make sure that when players go play at their local field...they get at least a little information on where they can go if they want to join or start teams and different divisions that exist for new and experienced players to play in, upcoming tourneys, etc...

Well...that wasn't meant to be a manifesto...sorry for the length. :ninja:

[Aslan]

pnumatic assist uses rams and 3way valves to cock the gun, so the pump stroke is about an inch. :P

autotriggering is when you hold the trigger down and pump and the gun just shoots like that.

Well, I think it's misleading to call them "stock class pumps" when they fire as fast or faster than semi-autos and cost 3 times as much. If all the "pump players" want to impress me, instead of saying they plyed in a tournament and won using "pumps", try using real pumps...like a Sheridan or a Brute or a Tracer...any gun that requires a FULL pump stroke...no electronics...no 1/2 inch pump strokes...REAL pumps. :hail:

[Aslan]

You don't see pumps in your area because the players in your area allow themselves to be intimadated by other players markers ... so they believe they need them too ...

I'm part of the Gunfighters club. All we use are Stock Class....

Everytime we go to a field there is always some "pro"/"beginner" ... WHATEVER team there that desides to challenge us after a few games.

Each time we beat them hands down.

Does that mean we're better???? Maybe more disciplined .... the groups we play against are good and I dont want to come across as saying they suck ... But we prove on a consistant basis that it isn't a game of BPS ....

And if you don't believe me you can even do search for some MPG of a X-Ball team out in cali that won their division ..... three of the 5 guys had pumps and they were all the runners ... :hail:

REAL pumps? :hail: :rolleyes:

[slade]

Well, I think it's misleading to call them "stock class pumps" when they fire as fast or faster than semi-autos and cost 3 times as much. If all the "pump players" want to impress me, instead of saying they plyed in a tournament and won using "pumps", try using real pumps...like a Sheridan or a Brute or a Tracer...any gun that requires a FULL pump stroke...no electronics...no 1/2 inch pump strokes...REAL pumps. :hail:
*sigh*...

as i said before, a very small number of pumps are pneumatic assist or auto trigger. i have yet to see a single one of those in person. and even pneumatic assist or auto trigger pumps will be slower than most mech markers. and i have yet to see a single pump with electronics.

oh, and theres someone on AO that used a talon with a broken pump arm (he had to somehow pump it using a quarter) and without a hopper (loading balls one at a time from his pocket) to play. and he even gogged someone.

[frop]

Well, I think it's misleading to call them "stock class pumps" when they fire as fast or faster than semi-autos and cost 3 times as much. If all the "pump players" want to impress me, instead of saying they plyed in a tournament and won using "pumps", try using real pumps...like a Sheridan or a Brute or a Tracer...any gun that requires a FULL pump stroke...no electronics...no 1/2 inch pump strokes...REAL pumps. :hail:

Show me someone shooting a pump of any kind faster than even a mech semi-auto. Please. No, really, show me. :rolleyes: :tard:

So you have short-sighted opinions pumps, eh? A paintball is ~.68 inches, a touch over 1/2 inch. Why can't a pump stroke be about that size & still be a "pump"?


This entire thread is pointless. You are just being argumentative & refusing to accept logical rebuttals to your inane 'points'.

:sigh: Guess I'll add another one to the ignore list. :(

[Emert426]

All or a VERY high percentage of Pneu pumps are project pumps usually done by WWA, Punisher(Ken), etc.... I had custom work done to my old phantom and just sold it, as I said there is a very limited # of true assisted pumps floating around out there, and even fewer that are more than collectors items.

I played pump/stock for a good period of time and would regularly wipe the feel one ball at a time.... Its not all about the equiptment ladies. I plan on buying another just to fine tune my speedball game, as of now I dont have to walk my shots onto a target because I know how to aim my marker for the first shot.

And look at SoCal pump teams.... I have watched many videos of pump teams playing. They are out there, the world doesnt end with AGD, SP, WDP, etc......

[Aslan]

agreed. i waste so much more paint on woodsball, waste a lot more time just wandering around and overall it isnt fun at all for me. in speedball i shoot less than a case a day and when im low on paint, have been able to go up to 5 games on one hopper, and still last whole games and get people out. and this is 5+ man teams against other tourney players.

That just means you sling too much paint in woodsball. Speedball is faster...the games are faster...so you use less paint per game. However, if you make your usage based on a "per minute/hour" system, you will find that you probably use more playing speedball (unless you stink and get hit out immediately) PER MINUTE than woodsball PER MINUTE. If you use more per minute playing woodsball, you need to use more strategy and cover and not just sit behind a bunker pretending you're a howitzer. For me, I use 50-350 rounds per game on an X-ball course depending on how long I last and how much help I get from my teammates. In woodsball, I usually use 200-350 rounds in a 15-20 minute game. So, if you do the math...if a woodsball game lasts more than twice as long...you should use twice as much paint...and I usually don't. You "can"...if you get behind cover and just try to overpower the rest of the field...but thats usually not the point of woodsball...it's just what speedball players do when they play woodsball because they are trying to show off their marker capabilities. :eek:


i didnt say it was an advantage. i was saying people may spend $1500 on a pump because its exactly what they want and they have the money for it. but its still a pump.

pneumatic assist is exactly what it sounds like, it shortens the pump stroke by having a 3-way that cocks the marker. its like an autococker, except the 3-way is attached to a pump on the front of the marker instead of attached to the trigger.

auto trigger is where you hold the trigger and pump the marker, and it will fire for every pump stroke. its fairly similar to semi-auto, in ROF at least.


oh yeah, and before anyone brings up overshooting, the most ive ever been lit up has been on a woodsball field.

Those aren't really pumps than...but I've already covered that in previous posts. As for overshooting, I agree. In woodsball, people can get behind you and light you up...they can bunker you...they can surround you easier...and they often times don't want to give away their position so they'll wait till you're close to lay into you. But overshooting doesn't bother me unless I see someone do it to a little kid or they do it after a person calls "Out". I hit a little kid yesterday and he really yelled...didnt get up right away. I shot only 5 rounds and no more than 3 coulda hit him...but I was only 15-20 feet away and he didn't know I was there. It was completely legal...but I felt bad for the kid...afterwards I did ask him if he was okay and apologized...he was fine though...I think it just scared him when he started getting hit and had no idea I was there. :wow:

On another note...if we are comparing speedball and woodsball...lets talk sportsmanship. I watched those amateur teams play and they were swearing and practically getting in fist fights every game for all kinds of reasons. Numerous times people had to be separated. It was horrible sportsmanship...the worst I've ever seen...and it was JUST A PRACTICE! In woodsball, sometimes you think someone wiped...maybe you get shot after calling out...but never like that...not nearly every game...for every little reason. :argh:

[slade]

Show me someone shooting a pump of any kind faster than even a mech semi-auto. Please. No, really, show me. :rolleyes: :tard:

So you have short-sighted opinions pumps, eh? A paintball is ~.68 inches, a touch over 1/2 inch. Why can't a pump stroke be about that size & still be a "pump"?


This entire thread is pointless. You are just being argumentative & refusing to accept logical rebuttals to your inane 'points'.

:sigh: Guess I'll add another one to the ignore list. :(
qft.

i cant believe i actually have been replying to this... when i first read the thread i promised myself i wouldnt get involved, for all the reasons you mentioned.

[Aslan]

You know, I'd like to see a cross between the fast action of speedball and the more adventurous aspects of woodsball and scenario. Personally I think speedball is boring ... yeah I know what you're thinking but it's too much of the same, symmetrical friends and all that. What I always liked about playing renegade and why I play it so often was finding new cool places to play and having many more options. My friends *still* talk about an old abandoned fish processing plant in the woods we used to play at with a partially collapsed roof. I want to feel like I'm in the middle of Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars, Unreal Tournament and The Road Warrior. That's what I want, and I want it now. Damn it. (c:

Good post...I love finding cool places to play as well. I can see how X-Ball could get very boring very fast compared to scenario and woods. I'd actually like to go back to pump days...(true pumps)...like I said before (before I was deemded "anti-pump", my fondest paintball memories are playing with pumps in a small wooded area. It took skill, accuracy, strategy, communication...but everyone was pretty even in equipment. Once the first guy brought a semi auto, things changed quickly. His semi-auto wasn't as accurate...but with the ability to fire tracers he didn't need it to be... :shooting: :shooting:

[slade]

(true pumps)
for the last time, the majority of pumps you will ever see are true legal pumps, not pneumatic assist or auto trigger!!

[Aslan]

[QUOTE=shartley]Why did they come out with CA? Why does anything come out with newer things? Does that mean the older things are worthless? Do police departments still use pump action shotguns? Why? Bah… the argument is not really worth having.[QUOTE]

Don't make the arguement if it's "not worth having". Do police departments use black powder, swords...bows and arrows? No. Armies went from swords to guns to bigger and faster guns...I agree it's a natural progression. I wasn't arguing that. Numerous people tried to claim that they could go on the field with any kind of cheap pump gun and dominate. I simply said that if that were the case, why would anyone pay thousands more for electronic semi-autos. Instead of a decent response, I just got branded "anti-pump" and "anti-speedball" and a "flamer". I don't know, people get entirely too serious sometimes, it's hard to have a civil conversation sometimes. :cool:

[Emert426]

A true pump is a marker that must be manually stimulated (usually by the sliding of a(n) "appendage" or handle that forced the bolt back and engages the hammer) and loads a single ball. Whether the gun is nelson based or something different this must be repeated for each single shot without any help from an exterior force I.E. PNEUMATIC ASSISTANCE.

Some have autotriggers, this means the trigger can be held down and continuously pumped to fire quicker. This is rarely used doe to the stick feed of a true stock class marker and the fact that a slight "rock and cock" motion is required makes this feature good only when shooting downwards or in a very tight situation. Not to mention it is rare to hit more than 2-3 bps while doing this without chopping. This is not the same as Pneu considering you are still doing all the action.

Anything that does not fall into the first category is not a true pump... Do I need to post diagrams?

[Aslan]

*sigh*...

oh, and theres someone on AO that used a talon with a broken pump arm (he had to somehow pump it using a quarter) and without a hopper (loading balls one at a time from his pocket) to play. and he even gogged someone.

*sigh*
Could he do it twice? Come on...talk about *sigh*...let's not make this a thread about what we heard some guy did "once". AGAIN...I'm not anti-pump...I LOVE pump guns...that was never the arguement/discussion. The discussion was about the future of paintball and then the thread got flamed to death by pro-speedball guys and $650 pump gun users branding me anti-pump just because I ask one simple question. Rock on pump guys! Go to town! :clap: :headbang: :clap:

[Aslan]

Show me someone shooting a pump of any kind faster than even a mech semi-auto. Please. No, really, show me. :rolleyes: :tard:

AGREED! Show ME! That's what I'm talking about! :clap:


So you have short-sighted opinions pumps, eh? A paintball is ~.68 inches, a touch over 1/2 inch. Why can't a pump stroke be about that size & still be a "pump"?


This entire thread is pointless. You are just being argumentative & refusing to accept logical rebuttals to your inane 'points'.

:sigh: Guess I'll add another one to the ignore list. :(

I was just saying that theres a difference between a team going and playing speedball with 5 guys using PMI Tracers and a team where 5 guys have $600 "pumps" specially modified. That's all. Everybody just got overexcited and it snowballed. :cuss:

Why is it that when someone posts an opposite opinion, you automatically assume they are being argumentative? People are allowed to express different opinions. I have not been near as rude in any of my threads (and I've posted like 20!) as you have been in your one flame. :cheers:

Happy to be in the good company of those you would ignore. :dance:

[Emert426]

AGREED! Show ME! That's what I'm talking about! :clap:



I was just saying that theres a difference between a team going and playing speedball with 5 guys using PMI Tracers and a team where 5 guys have $600 "pumps" specially modified. That's all. Everybody just got overexcited and it snowballed. :cuss:

Why is it that when someone posts an opposite opinion, you automatically assume they are being argumentative? People are allowed to express different opinions. I have not been near as rude in any of my threads (and I've posted like 20!) as you have been in your one flame. :cheers:

Happy to be in the good company of those you would ignore. :dance:

Usually it costs more than 600 to have an upgraded pump specially modified....

Most pump tourney players use Dye Carters/Buzzards which used in good condition run 600-850ish.... STOCK

A setup phantom ran me just under 600 to put all the factory upgrades on it... ALL COSMETIC minus the trigger shoe, Vert ASA, and T-Stock which affected performance....

And what other modifications can you do yo a pump that would run you more? They come with what you need stock..... You dont even need an aftermarket barrel for the carters and phantoms... they are some of the best as is.

[TDonovan]

Stock Class/Pump is the best way to play paintball in my mind. Given the choice of playing pump and semi, I'll typically pick my phantom over my intimidator unless the team I'm playing with is against it. Honestly, if I lived in california where there are a bunch of stock class teams, I'd have never bought a semi.

I play stock class (10-15 balls, tip forward & pump to load, 12gram co2) against the best competition I can find. I've done it at badlandz hopping in on a team practice, and I can hold my own against dmx's, intimidators, angels, shockers, anything you care to shoot at me with. I've played stock class for about a year, and after becoming so comfortable with the gun itself and being outgunned that I play BETTER with it than my intimidator.

BTW: I prefer speedball to woods. Just because it's speedball doesn't mean you have to shoot 20bps (which is a waste anyways). I like the fast paced games, the bunkering, and the fact I don't have to roll around in itchy bushes to shoot some guy with a swat vest on while he sets up the bipod on his 98c flatline.

[Aslan]

for the last time, the majority of pumps you will ever see are true legal pumps, not pneumatic assist or auto trigger!!

Am I in the twighlight zone? :confused:

First you argue that people can play with regular pumps and beat players with better equipment consistently. Then I say that I haven't seen it and don't see how it would be possible to beat electro markers with a pump and you say you aren't talking about beating electric markers because a field shouldn't allow pumps vs electros. Then I agree and say a true pump wouldn't last long against a 5-man team full of top end semis and you start the arguement all over again with a few *sigh*s thrown in. :hail:

I'm going to pass out...I feel dizzy...

[slade]

Am I in the twighlight zone? :confused:

First you argue that people can play with regular pumps and beat players with better equipment consistently. Then I say that I haven't seen it and don't see how it would be possible to beat electro markers with a pump and you say you aren't talking about beating electric markers because a field shouldn't allow pumps vs electros. Then I agree and say a true pump wouldn't last long against a 5-man team full of top end semis and you start the arguement all over again with a few *sigh*s thrown in. :hail:

I'm going to pass out...I feel dizzy...
umm, please go back and quote me exactly where i said any of that. im fairly certain i never said any of that, and CERTAINLY never said that fields shouldnt allow pump vs. electros. and what you quoted me saying has NOTHING to do with what you posted.


and for the love of jesus, you dont have to use smileys in every post!

[Jaan]

Show me someone shooting a pump of any kind faster than even a mech semi-auto. Please. No, really, show me. :rolleyes: :tard:
Sorry but I can't let that one pass ... yes, there are people who can shoot a high end pump faster than you can shoot a low end mechanical semi-auto.

This place usually have videos available but for some reason today the links are down, however when they're back up you can look at the old Nightline footage and see people shooting pumps *wicked* fast:

http://www.webdogradio.us/video/oldschool/

I guess you never shot any of the old "semi-auto" guns like the Splatmaster or the GZ 2000, but you would be lucky to get off 3 shots a second. Seriously. The trigger pulls were heavy, and I mean HEAVY and the length of pull was around 2 inches. The reason was because the guns technically were double action ... your finger pulled the bolt back and fired the gun at the same trigger pull.

[shartley]

Don't make the arguement if it's "not worth having". Do police departments use black powder, swords...bows and arrows? No. Armies went from swords to guns to bigger and faster guns...I agree it's a natural progression. I wasn't arguing that. Numerous people tried to claim that they could go on the field with any kind of cheap pump gun and dominate. I simply said that if that were the case, why would anyone pay thousands more for electronic semi-autos. Instead of a decent response, I just got branded "anti-pump" and "anti-speedball" and a "flamer". I don't know, people get entirely too serious sometimes, it's hard to have a civil conversation sometimes. :cool:
Who made an argument? I asked questions which you obviously didn’t understand why they were asked (or just want to argue so ignore their obvious intent). To compare pump action shotguns and police, to black powder weapons and swords shows you are only out to argue…. not have a rational discussion. I used pump action shotguns in my question because you mentioned PUMP MARKERS. Now if you mentioned blow darts and slingshots that would have been a different story. But pump markers are pretty much the same as electronic markers in their actual workings, only what “makes” them do what they do is different. One is a pump, the other is another automated process. But the markers are still basically the same… unlike bows, swords, etc.

You argue that people can not go on a field with a pump marker and dominate "because" we now have electronic semi-auto markers and people buy them? What kind of argument point is that? Your argument is flawed….. seriously. But you don’t even see it, or want to.

The simple truth is that some people can indeed go on a paintball field with a pump marker and dominate (I know many of them). That does not mean ALL people can though, and THAT is why we now see the wider selection of markers. It is also easier to shoot more paint with the newer markers and that in itself can give a player an advantage and allow them to make up for weaknesses in their game. That does not mean ALL players who use “high end” markers have weak games, but that it does make their game easier.

Again, I didn’t make any argument, I asked questions. It is you who are just out to argue, not discuss, not debate, but argue. No matter what anyone posts you will twist it, turn it, and pick at it just to have something more to argue about. Are you CB? You will think what you want no matter what anyone posts. So have at it. I am through, and sorry I even posted at all.

[StuDawggie]

You don't see pumps in your area because the players in your area allow themselves to be intimadated by other players markers ... so they believe they need them too ...

Let me just chime in on that comment here. I play pump on a regular basis (tippy SL-68II w/ a stock barrel), and I've played speedball, x-ball, etc. with that and have held my own with that marker. I've also gone head to head with a guy on an x-ball field (because we were bored) who was using a timmy, and you know what? I held my own until I made a stupid mistake 9 minutes into the game by leaving myself open, so to say that pump players are intimidated is totally off track. If it wasn't for not watching my footing and tripping, I would have had a clean shot to win since I had my opponet cornered.


Then I say that I haven't seen it and don't see how it would be possible to beat electro markers with a pump ...
I hate to burst your bubble, but a pump player can be an electro player any given day. Mistakes happen, and good shots get made, so to generalize like that is just wrong. Let's say you put your average newb against an experienced pump player, I'll have my money on the pump player before the newb w/ the electro that doesn't know how to use it. Or not even an experienced player vs. newb. My cousin has an electro, and has been playing for about 4 years, and I have a pump that I use from time to time, that I've been playing with for almost 6 years, and in our ususal 5 game head to head sets, I usually usually win the sets.

So for all of you that think the pump players can't hold their own, I recomend next time you go to the fields, look at who's lasting longer out there. (okay rant over)

[Target Practice]

A bunch of stuff on page two.
I agree.

[slasherdan]

REAL pumps? :hail: :rolleyes:

Yes Jack ....

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/images/memberpics/slasherdan/P4020002.JPG

And for you're "real Stock Class pumps like a sheridan.." comment :

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/images/memberpics/slasherdan/471921677103_0_ALB.jpg

Either way .. I don't use the "$1500" pumps you most likely think I use ..... Why spend $1500 on ANY kind of paintgun that I can do with these ....

And no ... this doesn't even include my old PGP or other sheridan pumps in my collection.

Stick that in a pipe and smoke it.

[Lohman446]

And here come the pump stories. Funny how I've yet to see someone use a pump in X-ball, scenario, or woodsball in like 2-3 years. There's no way you would stand a chance in a speedball match against ramping markers with a gun that you have to cock before firing. I can guarantee that there were no pumps on the field today.

Yeh, because in the rare days I use my bump I never score any eliminations with it... I mean, just crawling the snake, the other team just ignores me because I have a pump :rolleyes: . Let's get real here guys


http://home.comcast.net/~allfor114all/AoMi.gif

[slasherdan]

Let me just chime in on that comment here. I play pump on a regular basis (tippy SL-68II w/ a stock barrel), and I've played speedball, x-ball, etc. with that and have held my own with that marker. I've also gone head to head with a guy on an x-ball field (because we were bored) who was using a timmy, and you know what? I held my own until I made a stupid mistake 9 minutes into the game by leaving myself open, so to say that pump players are intimidated is totally off track. If it wasn't for not watching my footing and tripping, I would have had a clean shot to win since I had my opponet cornered.


I hate to burst your bubble, but a pump player can be an electro player any given day. Mistakes happen, and good shots get made, so to generalize like that is just wrong. Let's say you put your average newb against an experienced pump player, I'll have my money on the pump player before the newb w/ the electro that doesn't know how to use it. Or not even an experienced player vs. newb. My cousin has an electro, and has been playing for about 4 years, and I have a pump that I use from time to time, that I've been playing with for almost 6 years, and in our ususal 5 game head to head sets, I usually usually win the sets.

So for all of you that think the pump players can't hold their own, I recomend next time you go to the fields, look at who's lasting longer out there. (okay rant over)

Hey Stu ... my comment on pump players being intimadated wasn't directed at everyone. This guy claims that pumps are stupid and no one in the area uses them. To me it sounds like his local field has a bunch of people who either don't want to use a pump because they think they're going to be outgunned, or they are just plan scared to because their first time players.

I've played just about every "style" of plaintball there is since I got back into pump a few years ago. And to be totally honest I will admit that when I first left pump back in 1990 I was thinking "how back a pump player play against these semi's" ..... I never gave it a chance and jumped on the bandwagon instantly.

A few years ago I decided to give pump a chance again .... And you're right, and I've stated it in my original post ... pump players are more disiplined. Playing a pump is more about speed, accuracy, and awareness.

I keep my RT around to sometimes to change it up when I feel like it. The best thing I've done at my fields when I DO use my RT is put my 45 round hopper and run the entire game without having to load the 45 round hopper once because I only need one or two shots per guy ....

[Thordic]

I played pump all day, playing speedball, against people using emags / vikings / eblades, etc.

I bunkered one guy, and would have gotten another if I hadn't gotten sand into the gun by dropping it. Bonehead move on my part left to broken balls coming out the barrel.

And this was using a Nelspot 007, one of the oldest guns out there. Its bolt-action for christs sake.

Not only can pump compete, but its more satisfying, because when you get your kills, you know it was because of skill (or at least luck). You didn't just mow down everything and one lucky stray shot got him, you had to actually aim. It makes your eliminations much more satisfying.

Also, I've noticed when I play pump I don't really get that many less eliminations than when I play semi. And I'm not claiming any thrones as a "good" pump player either.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Aslan, I think you are basing your conclusions on a very small sample. Where I live, pump play is alive and well. I know that's also true in New England, and that the NE-based Paintball Marshall's (a stock club) have chapters in various other regions as well. As for seeing no one use one in a "serious" event: 5 of my friends played with pumps or stock-guns at the Long Island Big Game last month. EMR in Pennsylvania hosts a pump-only big game in August. And until this year, the Pump Players Internet Group had participated in almost every Skyball. No trophies, but they won a few games. I don't know how many of those players used a low-end bare-bones pump but I'm willing to bet that none of their opponents used a low-end bare-bones semi.

Technical notes:
(1) "stock" does not mean an unmodified pump gun. It means 12gr & horizontal 'rock & cock' feed.
(2) the Trracer-series pumps have autotriggers, as do Phantoms.
(3) expensive pump setups don't necessarily have to be pneumatic-assists, which as someone else mentioned are actually quite rare. Take a $300 Sniper, add a barrel kit, bolt, regulator, HPA & motorized hopper and you can soon approach $1000.


ANYWAY... on the original topic:

I don't think paintball is dieing. I agree that jerks who use competitive-grade equipment to beat-up on newbies are hurting the game. Hopefully, field owners will recognize this and do something about it. They are the only ones who can. Paintball has no governing body, and no way to enforce technical limitations on manufacturers or players. High-end electro's are not going away.

All we can do as individuals is to try and ensure that new players have a positive experience. Paintball has always had a high turnover of players. It's always been new players that keep this game alive and growing.

[Emert426]

Technical notes:
(1) "stock" does not mean an unmodified pump gun. It means 12gr & horizontal 'rock & cock' feed.
(2) the Trracer-series pumps have autotriggers, as do Phantoms.
(3) expensive pump setups don't necessarily have to be pneumatic-assists, which as someone else mentioned are actually quite rare. Take a $300 Sniper, add a barrel kit, bolt, regulator, HPA & motorized hopper and you can soon approach $1000.

Concerning #3 - Doesnt a sniper have to be custom modified to become stock? No horizontal feed, set up for Compressed......

All I'm saying is a true SC marker should rarely hit the 1k mark... unless you just wanna customize it to make it 1 of a kind. Honestly most SC guns dont even need anything

[Fallout-]

I find any game is won based on skill not guns. Did you ever think those popel have $2000 guns because they play enough and want the best equipment? They didient just start and say "HEy Im guna buy a $2000 paintball gun!"
Trust me.

Plus people buyign $2000 guns and shooting 1 or more cases of paint a day will only help this sport grow.

[slasherdan]

Plus people buyign $2000 guns and shooting 1 or more cases of paint a day will only help this sport grow.

How true .... It's the paint companies that push the marker manufactures to produce fast shooting markers ...

Kind of like how GM gets kick backs from the Oil Companies to keep the high efficency engine's off the market ....

[SlartyBartFast]

Plus people buyign $2000 guns and shooting 1 or more cases of paint a day will only help this sport grow.

How? The only thing that will grow is the wallets of the paintball manufacturers.

Hard to convince new players to engage in a battle of "who brought the most cash".

The sport "grew" when cheap markers were made available at regular retail stores. The sport will grow with the release of more affordable markers like the ION, not expensive equipment like the Shocker.

The future of paintball is not threatened by either woodsball, or speedball. It is threatened by a lack of wide-appeal marketing and a failure of fields to cross-promote their business.

Much like other niche activities, paintball often is not associated with other like activities. In Montreal I've seen the rise and fall of different Laser tag, Laser Quest, Red Planet, and other "single activity" entertainment. Each suffered from the belief that the primary source of revenue was inflated entry costs.

What resulted is that players/participants soon suffered burn-out and left, never to return again. All but the most gung-ho of new participants were willing to put down the elevated price of admission. End result: closure.

If the various activities were to band together under one roof or be close together, the "burn-outs" from one would attracted to another and perhaps later be "recaptured". Also, concessions and other revenue streams could be leveraged due to the mass of participants.

The reasons the original poster saw the "death" of paintball had little to do with speedball vs. woods. It had to do with poor refs and the fields drive not to provide a service or experience, but to instead try and focus entirely on selling paint and doing as little as possible to do so.

[SlartyBartFast]

Kind of like how GM gets kick backs from the Oil Companies to keep the high efficency engine's off the market ....

:rolleyes:

What a load of horse excrement.

Think the electricity companies wouldn't be there to pay more for effecient engines so they could sell you more electricity?

I suppose you beleive that cars can be run on water but the designs are being suppressed. :rofl:

[slasherdan]

Nope ... it comes from my friends father in law who was a member of the GM board ...

GM can make a gas engine that can get 30 to 40 mpg, maybe even more .... But the Gas Companies scratch their backs so GM will scratch theirs. It's common buisness practice that makes this country so "great" .... It's all about the buck, not the customer.

If you want to talk about Electric Companies, lets look at Enron ... These guys actually video taped their meetings where they would call power plants and tell them to shut their plants down and to make an "excuse" all in an attempt to drive the price of electricity up.

Yeah these guys got caught for all their practices, but when they get out of jail they're still going to be Millionaires.

Look I don't want to get into a Buisness Ethics/Politics debate. Just really not worth the energy at this point in my life. Just making a point that companies that have a related client base are not adverse about making benifical buisness agreements to make more money for everyone involved.

I mean think about it ......

If I was a paintball manufacturer ... I think it would be in my best interest to aid a paintball gun manufacturer in R&D to make a paint sprayer ....

It's basic buiness practice and good for the investors.

[SCpoloRicker]

Nope ... it comes from my friends father in law who was a member of the GM board ...

GM can make a gas engine that can get 30 to 40 mpg, maybe even more .... But the Gas Companies scratch their backs so GM will scratch theirs. It's common buisness practice that makes this country so "great" .... It's all about the buck, not the customer.

Giggle. Beware the automaker / oil producer conspiracy!

[LudavicoSoldier]

I guess I'm a bada$$ for using a pump on tha X-Ball field? :D I'll tell ya, playing 100% pump games on speedball fields is FUN! People should do it more often! Bunkering people is much more spectacular when you have to hit them with the first shot (or two).

Thats my new Woodland Camo VSC Phantom.

http://www.creativemayhem.com/AONE%20Gallery/images/AONE7%20(37).jpg

[Thordic]

GM can make a gas engine that can get 30 to 40 mpg, maybe even more ....

Hrm. GM = Saturn, my Saturn got 30 - 40 mpg. It must be a conspiracy.

[SlartyBartFast]

Hrm. GM = Saturn, my Saturn got 30 - 40 mpg. It must be a conspiracy.

:rofl: :rolleyes:

30-40mpg is easy. The conspiracy is consumers wanting big SUVs. Simple as that. it IS all about the customer. And the Bucks. Give the customer what they want, customer will give you the bucks. :p

Funny how it's always a "friend's" friend (or in this case father). Care to substantiate your claim with proof? Give us the name of the "father" so we can check the list of GM board members.

Also, if you can point to any proof of payments being made. I'm sure that sareholders would be glad to sue for diverted profits if that money wastn't declaierd and "on-the-books".

People are too stupid to inflate their tires properly, remove roof racks when not in use, drive conservatively, or a dozen other methods (aside from buying a fuel efficient car in the first palce) to save fuel.

To believe in the conspiracy is plain STUPIDITY.

[Thordic]

I know its easy, I was mocking his claim :)


To believe in the conspiracy is plain STUPIDITY.

Or the need to look :cool:


I spent enough time driving a slow car that got 35mpg, so I got a faster one that gets 18mpg. Its not twice as fast though, no matter what you might be led to believe.

[SlartyBartFast]

If you want to talk about Electric Companies, lets look at Enron ...

And right there you prove you don't know what you're talking about.

Enron was a trading company.

Driving up the price due to low supply based on market manipulation helped their bottom line selling futures and marginally helped the producers. Of far more benefit to the producers would be a method to get cheaper electricity to sell.

[dre1919]

I agree with a few of the things Asian said at the beginning of this thread. I personally have been playing for eleven years and I started playing back in the woodsball days when that was all there was. Then came speedball and my freinds and I got into it, playing tournaments. As we have gone out to fields, we see all the time how the players with the best guns on the field (highest rate of fire and fattest wallet) walk away with the wins. Sure, some of them have good strategy and tactics, but most of the time it's sheer volume and experience. They know the noobies will cower behind the bunkers for a short while, getting their feet wet and expecting a slower paced game. They rely on this, and in certain cases, so have I as an experienced player. They know they have the ability to hang out further than they should, firing off countless rounds eliminating newbs on sheer firepower. The newbs after the match either find their way to two things: intimidation or hero worship. They either think the player who spanked their whole team with his super marker was really good, or they feel frustrated and humiliated they weren't any good at this sport.

Here's an example: I have a buddy whose 32, so no kid himself. I've been trying to talk him into playing for many years and he finally made the leap, buying a Tippmann even though I tried to tell him he'd outgrow the marker in a while. Well, he goes up to a local field we have and his eyes are literally opened by how much volume some people can shoot with certain guns. He thought paintball was more about tactics, stalking and finding other players to shoot out, and playable with 500-700 rounds for the day. Yeah, it was...in '96. So now he only wants to play on his land, with like minded Tippmann carrying players. That style of playing took him, and his money, away from that field. Now though, even if you go to a simple field for some rec play, you'd better come with lots of cash and a decent gun because even in common rec play the people who strive to make themselves feel better by beating up on newbies or rec players are lurking. They are lurking with their Karnivores and Shockers, their A4's and DM4's. They come out to play, knowing they spend most of their time in tournaments, and get lumped in with the church groups or the rec players just trying out the sport. The result most of the time is people come away feeling they are better served playing on their own land or not at all. They can't compete with that kind of firepower, and they can't afford to own it themselves, so they disregard paintball as fun, but not worth the hassle. That's several more new players that we lose.

It does no good to say "Well, the referees should sepearte the groups into new guys and experienced." The reffing at our fields, all our fields, sucks big time and the refs are lazy enough teenagers to see that this would not happen. Seriously...I have literally seen it first hand many, many times. I've seen refs do so little on a field they are as useful as a pallet wall. So that leads us to the conclusion that while speedball and faster markers are fun to shoot (I have an Angel LCD), it's not that good for the sport. Who it is good for is the paintball manufacturers who want you to buy more new markers and more paint. You can't make them rich shooting a gun with 5-7 bps capability, so they don't hype that style of play. Who really needs to be able to launch 20 balls per second anyway? If it only takes one to eliminate a player, are you really that bad of a shot? No, it's camoflauged under the term "suppressing fire to aid movement of your teammates". What it should be appropriately titled is "Let's generate more money for the paintball manufacturer and see if anyone notices."

Well...yeah, I did.

[Jaan]

:rofl: :rolleyes:

30-40mpg is easy. The conspiracy is consumers wanting big SUVs. Simple as that. it IS all about the customer. And the Bucks. Give the customer what they want, customer will give you the bucks. :p

Funny how it's always a "friend's" friend (or in this case father). Care to substantiate your claim with proof? Give us the name of the "father" so we can check the list of GM board members.

Also, if you can point to any proof of payments being made. I'm sure that sareholders would be glad to sue for diverted profits if that money wastn't declaierd and "on-the-books".

People are too stupid to inflate their tires properly, remove roof racks when not in use, drive conservatively, or a dozen other methods (aside from buying a fuel efficient car in the first palce) to save fuel.

To believe in the conspiracy is plain STUPIDITY.
And to blindly trust big business and government is just plain naive.

Read up on history a little. General Motors, Firestone Tires, and Standard Oil of California were convicted of conspiracy in 1949 for buying up trolley lines and replacing them with buses. GM buses, using Firestone Tires and burning Gasoline provided by Standard Oil. They were fined $5000 each. They made millions.

Of course, humans no longer suffer from the same greedy frailties they did back in 1949 (c:

You know, if Smart Parts were really smart, they would do the same thing that the Singer sewing machine company did back in the old days when they offered to exchange the old cast iron machines for brand new electric machines. The cast iron machines were lasting too long (indeed, I have a treadle machine myself that's probably 80 years old) so they wanted people to get rid of them. They would give you a brand new machines for nothing then destroy the old machines. Imagine what would happen if Smart Parts decided to exchange Automags for Ions.

What's the difference between a conspiracy, which you beleive is as real as UFO's, and cooperation? We all need to cooperate in order for the world to function as it does, the only difference is a "conspiracy" involves underhanded, or illegal acts.

[Lohman446]

Nope ... it comes from my friends father in law who was a member of the GM board ...

GM can make a gas engine that can get 30 to 40 mpg, maybe even more .... But the Gas Companies scratch their backs so GM will scratch theirs. It's common buisness practice that makes this country so "great" .... It's all about the buck, not the customer.


Umm... GM/Ford/ Chrysler DO produce several gas engines that get over 30MPG. That mythical phantom executive... he didn't know this?

[SlartyBartFast]

And to blindly trust big business and government is just plain naive.

Who said anything about blind trust? :tard:

Blindly believing all industry and government to be involved in conspiracies is paranoid. :rolleyes:

Can you come up with proof?

[slasherdan]

Umm... GM/Ford/ Chrysler DO produce several gas engines that get over 30MPG. That mythical phantom executive... he didn't know this?

Pardon me for getting my facts wrong ... I called them up last night and I was told that SUV's and Van's were the 30 to 40 MPG and in some cases better. They have a v-6 that can get mid 50's mpg.

Yeah Enron is a trading company. But they were pulling strings in California left and right. I wasn't trying to say they were a electric company. Sorry for not making myself clear on my point.

Either way .... I don't blame Smart Parts for what they've done. It's nothing new here in the U.S.

It sucks for every little man out there trying to get into the game. It's next to impossible to make something new without suffering a lawsuit now.

I'm just going to stick to my Phantom and have fun.

[slasherdan]

I guess I'm a bada$$ for using a pump on tha X-Ball field? :D I'll tell ya, playing 100% pump games on speedball fields is FUN! People should do it more often! Bunkering people is much more spectacular when you have to hit them with the first shot (or two).

Thats my new Woodland Camo VSC Phantom.



Wait till you're the only pump on the X-Ball field and STILL bunkering people ....

Double their pride, sweeter their fall.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Wait till you're the only pump on the X-Ball field and STILL bunkering people ....

Double their pride, sweeter their fall.

I might have to put my direct feed body on to rock out with the rampers. :D

[slasherdan]

I might have to put my direct feed body on to rock out with the rampers. :D

Do what I did once for fun ... Put a Warp Feed on it and then see how many people ask how much it cost to get my Mag customized to look like that ....

[BuyMyMag]

And here come the pump stories. Funny how I've yet to see someone use a pump in X-ball, scenario, or woodsball in like 2-3 years. There's no way you would stand a chance in a speedball match against ramping markers with a gun that you have to cock before firing. I can guarantee that there were no pumps on the field today.

The teams I watched may not have been "amateur" or maybe they were. They were sponsored. I know there was an Evil team out there...I think something like Draxxus and one other one, maybe Empire. They were young...some teams were teenaged, other players in their 20s and they had coaches with them. They were 7-man teams. They used so much paint that there were "piles" of it in each of the corners of the field where it had hit the netting. And each of the kids was decked out in major equipment...at least one of the teams, I think 2, actually had their trucks/vans painted with their team names or logos or sponsors or something.

Yes, they had to run and slide. That's why I said 15% physical. 5% equipment...mainly because everyone out there had virtually the same level so all it is is a matter of upkeep.

It's not the arrow, it's the indian behind it. You don't need a $100534534534 marker to play speedball... Anyone can play! I take my Was'd Impulse out to the speedball field, it's not as fast as many of the other guns, and surely didn't cost as much, but the only way you can get better at it is by playing against better people.... :spit_take

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Concerning #3 - Doesnt a sniper have to be custom modified to become stock? No horizontal feed, set up for Compressed......

All I'm saying is a true SC marker should rarely hit the 1k mark... unless you just wanna customize it to make it 1 of a kind. Honestly most SC guns dont even need anything

Yes. Snipers are pump guns, not stock-class. To do it properly you'd need to cut off the feedneck and re-mill the body, though on the older models it's possible to make a passable stock-gun with a 90° elbow. A 12gr changer is easy to add. The most expensive pump guns are definitely not stock-class. Although that guy selling stock-class Snipers was asking $600.

[Aslan]

Yeh, because in the rare days I use my bump I never score any eliminations with it... I mean, just crawling the snake, the other team just ignores me because I have a pump :rolleyes: . Let's get real here guys


http://home.comcast.net/~allfor114all/AoMi.gif

Are you agreeing with me? It's been so long that I've forgot what that looks like...

As I've said 70+ times...I LOVE playing pump...I'm not "anti-pump". If we could get rid of electros and play stock pump again...I'd get my Brute out in a heartbeat (well, if I ever can find a replacement power tube for it). Not to mention, I could afford to play more if everyone was using pumps again because I wouldn't need 1000-1500 rounds a day to play at $60/case for field paint only. :eek:

[Lohman446]

Are you agreeing with me? It's been so long that I've forgot what that looks like...

As I've said 70+ times...I LOVE playing pump...I'm not "anti-pump". If we could get rid of electros and play stock pump again...I'd get my Brute out in a heartbeat (well, if I ever can find a replacement power tube for it). Not to mention, I could afford to play more if everyone was using pumps again because I wouldn't need 1000-1500 rounds a day to play at $60/case for field paint only. :eek:

I have used my pump (when I had it) in games on the speedball field - it really has not hurt me that much. Granted I have missed shots, and lanes, that I would like to think I would have had with a semi... but maybe I wouldn't have either. I bounced one in a tournament that likely cost us plenty, using my pump.

But you are right in a way, it is mostly non-equipment related. Want proof of that, take my team 100% sober (like that happens) vs how we normally play. Sober we can play with most any team around here... we normally are not that good. Does are equipment change at all? Nope... just our use of it and other variables.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Isnt it great to spend little to nothing for a day of play? I LOVE playing pump! :D

[Lohman446]

Isnt it great to spend little to nothing for a day of play? I LOVE playing pump! :D


My team and I go out to dinner after every tournament - dumbest move of the day buys dinner. I have yet to not buy dinner :tard: ... Between that and the pre-tournament parties, the travel, and various other things paint tends to be one of my lesser expenses. :D

[Aslan]

The reasons the original poster saw the "death" of paintball had little to do with speedball vs. woods. It had to do with poor refs and the fields drive not to provide a service or experience, but to instead try and focus entirely on selling paint and doing as little as possible to do so.

:hail:

Excellent Post.

It's not that I hate speedball...I played it and it was kinda fun and I did pretty well. What I didn't like was the refs didn't make fair teams...two guys showed up with HOT guns and a ton of experience and slaughtered everybody (rather than being put on separate teams or showing some restraint)...and 15 people on one speedball team is waaay too much for a smaller field.

The refs said we could play woods or speedball...but OBVIOUSLY preferred that we played on the X-ball course because they didn't need to walk anywhere nor deal with the mosquitos.

[Aslan]

I agree with a few of the things Asian said at the beginning of this thread.

It's an "L", I'm not asian.


It does no good to say "Well, the referees should sepearte the groups into new guys and experienced." The reffing at our fields, all our fields, sucks big time and the refs are lazy enough teenagers to see that this would not happen. Seriously...I have literally seen it first hand many, many times. I've seen refs do so little on a field they are as useful as a pallet wall. So that leads us to the conclusion that while speedball and faster markers are fun to shoot (I have an Angel LCD), it's not that good for the sport. Who it is good for is the paintball manufacturers who want you to buy more new markers and more paint. You can't make them rich shooting a gun with 5-7 bps capability, so they don't hype that style of play. Who really needs to be able to launch 20 balls per second anyway? If it only takes one to eliminate a player, are you really that bad of a shot? No, it's camoflauged under the term "suppressing fire to aid movement of your teammates". What it should be appropriately titled is "Let's generate more money for the paintball manufacturer and see if anyone notices."

Well...yeah, I did.

Actually, you'd be surprised what a field "can" do to make a game fun. I've been to another field that is very strict about safety and offers multiple classes. If you come to the field, and your gun doesn't chrono under 285, you don't play until it does. Now, I'd like them to go further and do random checks throughout the day, but at least they do what they do. And the classes "can" be annoying...if you're a mag owner and have trouble with CO2, you have to play advanced because that's one of the limits. But it's helpful because if you show up with an electric marker or even an electric hopper...you get separated into advanced or they will loan you a model 98 to use for the day if there aren't enough advanced players there. And that field does very well and is alot of fun. They have went to field paint only, which stinks because now you blow through over $100 a day...but it's almost worth it because of the better staff and quality of play. And the newbs, they go away talking about how they can't wait to come back rather than how they need to save up for an Angel and ramping boards, etc... or how they don't really like paintball and are only going to play in their backyard from now on. :(

[Meph]

Funny how I've yet to see someone use a pump in X-ball, scenario, or woodsball in like 2-3 years. There's no way you would stand a chance in a speedball match against ramping markers with a gun that you have to cock before firing.


Guess when we went to Skyball, team PPIG, with even our backmen using pumps.... we won games by sheer luck and them slipping on banana-peals.

Sorry but pumps absolutely can compete, and actually have an advantage. Sure there's a ROF limitation but good players can work around that. Cuz pump players, if they go stock-class style with at least a horizontal 10-round tube, have a faster and smaller profile.

There is however one HUGE disadvantage. We indeed only have that 1 shot at a time. And it's not easy to counter wipers when it's only 1 shot to wipe. At events we even have pictures of other teams playing on with hopper hits and such, then coming around to bunker. So it's not that pumps can't compete. It's that there's no 'honor system' alive in paintball so you can't rely on an honest match ever.

If a pump couldn't compete then I guess I never should never be able to make the 50 off the break, or shoot 3 people out in one game to then hang the flag. And that's just for tournament play.

Couple weekends ago I just got done playing at EMR (www.emrpaintball.com)'s Road to Burma. Played most of the event with my pump. I knew of about 4 others pumping that day too.

And I might not have been able to give supressive fire... but goggle shots make up for that. And I racked plenty of those up. (yay *taps self on back*)

[Aslan]

It's not the arrow, it's the indian behind it. You don't need a $100534534534 marker to play speedball... Anyone can play! I take my Was'd Impulse out to the speedball field, it's not as fast as many of the other guns, and surely didn't cost as much, but the only way you can get better at it is by playing against better people.... :spit_take

I'm reluctant to start this conversation again...and I know the flamethrowers are warming up...but let me try to simplify it without necessarily doing a separate poll. Maybe if I keep it simple, it won't confuse people as to what I'm saying.

How many people feel that it's much more likely that a person with a fair to above average amount of skill using a....lets say something simple like a spyder impulse or even more simpler, a Tippmann 98... will have an advantage over an opponent using ...to make it simple...a Tiger Shark....assuming that the opponent is a person with a fair to above average amount of skill? :confused: :confused: :cool:

My personal opinion...OPINION...is from my experience. Way back when...my first ever paintball gun was a tiger shark with a goofy little scope on it and I used those da*n little CO2 cartridges. Well, anyways...I did pretty well once I got the hang of things...and I was playing against alot of guys with stingray IIs, Talons, just other junk guns like that. What made me go out and buy a semi-auto, was that even though my skills were adequate and my gun was accurate...once people started showing up with Tippmann 98s, I couldn't get the same range and my accuracy wasn't too much of an advantage because a good semi can usually hit a person at 50 yards with a few trigger pulls...even with a lower end marker. So, they go through 3 times as much paint to hit you...but they hit you before you can get off another shot....so you better hope you can hit them with the first one. :mad:

Now, in the amateur speedball matches I watched last weekend...the rate of fire was sooo high...that you could pretty much just aim those markers at an X-ball balloon that the player with the pump is hiding behind...and he probably won't get a shot off. I mean, when these guys started...it sounded like a really loud aquarium pump as balls just were just bouncing off the obstacles at a machine gun pace. Maybe it's possible...I'll say right now that I'm impressed that so many people are that optimistic rather than everyone just saying, "who cares, pumps are like 1970s...get a real gun or play in your backyard." Maybe I'll try it if I play X-ball again. I've been tempted at the rec field (mainly because my semi guns always break) to break out a pump...it's definitely cheaper...maybe I'll try it. :bounce:

[Lohman446]

I'm reluctant to start this conversation again...and I know the flamethrowers are warming up...but let me try to simplify it without necessarily doing a separate poll. Maybe if I keep it simple, it won't confuse people as to what I'm saying.

How many people feel that it's much more likely that a person with a fair to above average amount of skill using a....lets say something simple like a spyder impulse or even more simpler, a Tippmann 98... will have an advantage over an opponent using ...to make it simple...a Tiger Shark....assuming that the opponent is a person with a fair to above average amount of skill? :confused: :confused: :cool:

My personal opinion...OPINION...is from my experience. Way back when...my first ever paintball gun was a tiger shark with a goofy little scope on it and I used those da*n little CO2 cartridges. Well, anyways...I did pretty well once I got the hang of things...and I was playing against alot of guys with stingray IIs, Talons, just other junk guns like that. What made me go out and buy a semi-auto, was that even though my skills were adequate and my gun was accurate...once people started showing up with Tippmann 98s, I couldn't get the same range and my accuracy wasn't too much of an advantage because a good semi can usually hit a person at 50 yards with a few trigger pulls...even with a lower end marker. So, they go through 3 times as much paint to hit you...but they hit you before you can get off another shot....so you better hope you can hit them with the first one. :mad:

Now, in the amateur speedball matches I watched last weekend...the rate of fire was sooo high...that you could pretty much just aim those markers at an X-ball balloon that the player with the pump is hiding behind...and he probably won't get a shot off. I mean, when these guys started...it sounded like a really loud aquarium pump as balls just were just bouncing off the obstacles at a machine gun pace. Maybe it's possible...I'll say right now that I'm impressed that so many people are that optimistic rather than everyone just saying, "who cares, pumps are like 1970s...get a real gun or play in your backyard." Maybe I'll try it if I play X-ball again. I've been tempted at the rec field (mainly because my semi guns always break) to break out a pump...it's definitely cheaper...maybe I'll try it. :bounce:


Well I understand what you are saying I am unwilling to compare the experiences of a "junk" equipment to the idea. There reaches a point of reasonably functional equipment that the quality of the equipment becomes less important. If I have a marker that is 90% "good" compared to one that is 95% thats not a big difference. If I go to the extremes and try to compare with one that is 10% "good" than of course the equipment mattered. But for the most part the markers made now days that sell in the $100 + range are all good enough to make skill and other things the factor.

[slasherdan]

My personal opinion...OPINION...is from my experience. Way back when...my first ever paintball gun was a tiger shark with a goofy little scope on it and I used those da*n little CO2 cartridges. Well, anyways...I did pretty well once I got the hang of things...and I was playing against alot of guys with stingray IIs, Talons, just other junk guns like that. What made me go out and buy a semi-auto, was that even though my skills were adequate and my gun was accurate...once people started showing up with Tippmann 98s, I couldn't get the same range and my accuracy wasn't too much of an advantage because a good semi can usually hit a person at 50 yards with a few trigger pulls...even with a lower end marker. So, they go through 3 times as much paint to hit you...but they hit you before you can get off another shot....so you better hope you can hit them with the first one. :mad:

Now, in the amateur speedball matches I watched last weekend...the rate of fire was sooo high...that you could pretty much just aim those markers at an X-ball balloon that the player with the pump is hiding behind...and he probably won't get a shot off. I mean, when these guys started...it sounded like a really loud aquarium pump as balls just were just bouncing off the obstacles at a machine gun pace. Maybe it's possible...I'll say right now that I'm impressed that so many people are that optimistic rather than everyone just saying, "who cares, pumps are like 1970s...get a real gun or play in your backyard." Maybe I'll try it if I play X-ball again. I've been tempted at the rec field (mainly because my semi guns always break) to break out a pump...it's definitely cheaper...maybe I'll try it. :bounce:

Well ... when I'm playing against guys with DM4's, Shockers, EMags, or other high ends I give myself a second to pop out and get my snap shot off. By the time the guy sees me, pulls the trigger, and the first of several balls getting near me, I will already be back behind cover.

I never come out in the same spot twice. I always keep them guessing for as long as possible.

Pump isn't that easy .... It is a different game ... It's a more satisfying game IMO.

If I came across earlier as a agressive poster here sorry. It's just that you mentioned that Pump players don't exist anymore, followed by the "Here's those pumper posts" when we started saying pump is clearly not dead.

We have to defend our own you know!!! ;)

Give pump a shot. You will most likely get owned a few times but when you start learning the finer aspects of playing pump again you'll scare those guys everytime.

Hell I get worried when I see a pump player on the other team .... not some pimped up paint thrower.

[Aslan]

If I came across earlier as a agressive poster here sorry. It's just that you mentioned that Pump players don't exist anymore, followed by the "Here's those pumper posts" when we started saying pump is clearly not dead.

We have to defend our own you know!!! ;)



I didn't mean to come off like that. I was just getting frustrated because peple kept chiming in that they could take any old pump and beat the heck out fo semis and electros and I just couldn't see it being that easy...otherwise why did I sell my Tiger Shark? It had a sweet paint job!

And then it was confusing because many of the guys were talking about $600 pumps. Then I would say, "well, a $600 pump is different" and people would say it's not. But if it's not, why pay $600? You can get a pump in great condition on Ebay for $50 with accessories, why spend an extra $550...it was just frustrating me that it seemed like everyone was arguing about different things and no sooner could I try to respond than someone starts bashing a previous post...it was crazy. :rolleyes:

[slasherdan]

I didn't mean to come off like that. I was just getting frustrated because peple kept chiming in that they could take any old pump and beat the heck out fo semis and electros and I just couldn't see it being that easy...

Well .... It is ..... You just have to use the force .... :D



And then it was confusing because many of the guys were talking about $600 pumps. Then I would say, "well, a $600 pump is different" and people would say it's not. But if it's not, why pay $600? You can get a pump in great condition on Ebay for $50 with accessories, why spend an extra $550...it was just frustrating me that it seemed like everyone was arguing about different things and no sooner could I try to respond than someone starts bashing a previous post...it was crazy. :rolleyes:

Well I don't think there really is that much of a differnce between say my Phantom and a Carter .... The Carter might have a easier pump, but to me they shoot and feel the same.

Carters used to go for $600 plus dollars.

Chipley ... well that is different. Plus they go for a tad more. I don't know if Chipley's are "assisted" though ... maybe someone can help me out there. I think they are, or they can have that kit installed because I swear this one guy at the SPE this year shot so much paint at me one time that I was hit 9 times before I yelled "hit". And those were not the only rounds he shot at me. Plus I remember seeing him shoot while pumping the gun with his finger ..... Can tell he practices with a mouse ... :D

Pumps can get expensive .. and nice ... but after a certain point I start to ask myself "why the hell didn't he just spend the money on a semi??"