The new accusation: shooting hot

[Lohman446]

It was at one point in time that we could accuse each other of ramping shots (adding) and everyone denied and accused and it went back and forth. Modifications to the rules have made this less of a subject.

Now we accuse each other of ramping velocity. Now I am sure there are velocity cheats out there, but they are not near as common or as easily attainable as shot ramping was before the rule change. It is not likely to find someone at a small "normal" field with it, at least in my opinion.

We are seeing threads pop up now without any indication that there was an actual problem found at the chrono accusing players of shooting hot. We just "know" they are shooting hot because of what we feel. This is despite our watching the chrono, telling the field staff, and the field staff failing to verify it. We cotinue to play with the same people even though they are overshooting us, the must be shooting hot, and the field staff will nto do anything about it. We ignore the safety factors of making this decision Now I'm not going to divide up what category I think some of these fall into, I'm sure some of those who have posted similar things above have valid complaints. but I simply do not beleive some/most of them and I know at least one recent story sounded more like the whining of a poor loser than anything else.

So now when we loose it is not because of lack of skill, a mistake on our part, brilliant play by the other team, or even luck. Its because the other player ramped (both velocity and shots), wiped hits, played on, and in any other way just cheated while we played perfectly clean... after all that superman slide into the snake was needed - it was not our responsibility to check for the ball that hit our chest first to see if it broke or not, despite what the rules say thats just not how it is done.

I guess what gets me, is those who loose seldom say we we're beat, the other team outplayed us. It instead goes into a tirade about how clean we played and how much they cheated and how it is the death of paintball. It was all there equipment and there spoiled because they have to use expensive gear to beat us, we would destroy every team if we had DM5's and cheated like they did and and... and the list goes on and on. I have one question. Does anyone actually beleive these tirades any more?

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[warbeak2099]

There are some valid complaints. But those are the ones with proof.

I've been complained about at my local field a couple times. Once a guy said I was shooting hot. I went straight to the chrony with a ref and it turned out I was shooting the limit, 250fps. On another occasion I was accused of shooting hot and I was, 300fps. I quickly turned it down and apologized since it was an accident (I chronied normally while using an RT style valve).

I've also complained about others. Sometimes it turns out they are shooting hot and sometimes not. It's important to bring it up even if you may be wrong. If you are wrong, just be polite and apologize. In any case, you are just keeping the field safe. I don't care when someone says I'm shooting hot and it turns out they're wrong. I'm glad they spoke up, what if I was?

Now you do see a lot of fields who don't give a flying crap. However, you only see so many because no one is going to post about a field that does a good job. It isn't as interesting! What a boring post it would be if someone just said, "my field is great, they really keep us safe". Hearing someone go on a rant and say, "my field is always letting cheaters off the hook..." is much more exciting. I'm sure the majority of fields do not suffer fools gladly. But there are those few bad apples. Ya know what? Field owners are running the place to make money right? You get a large enough group of players who are sick of the bs to get together and tell the owner they're tired of the way the field runs, the guy's gonna do something. He doesn't want to lose business for the sake of a couple jackasses who insist on cheating. I'd say you'd need at least 15-20 players to complain. Between admission and paint those 15-20 players equal about $1000+ a night/day to this guy.

[JimmyBeam]

i see it more and more........

the "its never my fault" attitude. no he didnt shoot you out becasue hes better than you, so he had to be shooting hot or cheating, or his gun is better than yours........


i hear it at least once a week....."oh we could have beaten you if we had guns as good as yours" and thats exactly why i need a pump


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[SCpoloRicker]

I have one question. Does anyone actually beleive these tirades any more?

No. In fact, I never did. Chrono enforcement can be an issue: I am a pain, and make it an issue whenever I play.

[peewee]

That's what makes the Phantom so much fun... :shooting: I have honestly been accused of shooting hot. I handed it of to the ref & was shocked when he said that it didn't matter because it was only one ball. He checked it & I was -5 fps under the 270 field max. (small speedball fields)
I watched a tourney a while back at the same field & heard all sort of complaints about ramping velocities, but I believe that a major part of it is that we are playing at much closer distances. Fifteen years ago ( here goes the good old days plug) the field I worked at would have had field speed at 250 max. Some fields are still running 300 on small fields. Sorry if a 270 pound fat guy can run the length of the field under 4 seconds its tiny.

[SlartyBartFast]

Now I am sure there are velocity cheats out there, but they are not near as common or as easily attainable as shot ramping was before the rule change. It is not likely to find someone at a small "normal" field with it, at least in my opinion.

It's as likely to find illegal FPS ramping now as it was to find illegal bps ramping before. As long as the mechanism used to control velocity is somehow under the control of the electronics. :mad:

[Aslan]

I guess what gets me, is those who loose seldom say we we're beat, the other team outplayed us. It instead goes into a tirade about how clean we played and how much they cheated and how it is the death of paintball. It was all there equipment and there spoiled because they have to use expensive gear to beat us, we would destroy every team if we had DM5's and cheated like they did and and... and the list goes on and on. I have one question. Does anyone actually beleive these tirades?

I see what you are saying. However, I think it's just more common for people to talk about the problems they've seen than the times they got hit out because they played bad. Me, I don't care...I tell both stories. I got hit out last weekend because I hid in a lower part of a tower and didn't realize their were holes in the floor. I thought it would be a great place to stay safe from the tower...turned out I was wrong and paid the price. My bad...it was a bad move on my part. :hail:

However, there were two guys that showed up with expensive guns and more skill midway through the day and they made the day less enjoyable for alot of the players. I SAW one of the guys chrono his gun at 300 and he even told the ref it was shooting 300. He said he couldn't turn it down anymore and the ref said, "well, it'll be allright." Last time I told a ref at a chrono (different field) that my gun was >285 and I couldn't turn it down anymore...he cut my spring. At that field...a better run field...there were no excuses tolerated. If you didn't have your goggles on in an area where you were required to...you sat out a game...no excuses. :nono: :nono:

Another reason, maybe, you're seeing more of this is the players I see today. I see alot more of the poor sportsmanship from the teenage players. It's just a psychological fact that at those ages kids tend to be very egocentric...the whole world revoles around them. Sportsmanship is something you get taught, not something that is easy to learn on your own...and with a rec sport like paintball where there usually isn't a good coach focusing on sportsmanship and making it important to their team...and little parent interaction...alot of these kids start playing with attitudes like you've seen posted on the threads here...that cheating is part of the game and it's everybody else's fault when they lose. :(

[ojhspyro89]

The problem with today is since its ok to ramp bps, i think people find it more easier to ramp other things like velocity. Its total crap and just because they cant win right, they cheat to win. I myself dont do that, i just like to play fair its lots more fun to know your beating or getting beat by someone better/worse than you.

One tiem at my field, we thought this kid with this a 5 was shooting hot. He really didnt shoot any of us he was like 10 or something. But when he would shoot the airball bunkers it would be extreemly loud. Being all of us in a group we made him go chrony, thankfully he wasnt over 300. We usually dont have a problem on a rec day, but then again i havnt been in any tournys.

[SlartyBartFast]

Last time I told a ref at a chrono (different field) that my gun was >285 and I couldn't turn it down anymore...he cut my spring. At that field...a better run field...there were no excuses tolerated. If you didn't have your goggles on in an area where you were required to...you sat out a game...no excuses. :nono: :nono:(

That's the way things should be. :cheers:

The way I see it is a field should use every legal means necessary to confiscate and then destroy velocity ramping markers or markers that "can't" be lowered. Got to be something they're leagally able to do to protect the safety of thier players and others. After all, doesn't the field become complicit if the marker injures someone afterwards?

[hitech]

It is not a new phenomenon. The following two incidences happened to me around 1990.

First:

Walking off the field I overheard a conversation between two players walking behind me:

Player 1: "I'm sure that guy wiped!"
Player 2: "How come?"
Player 1:"Because I'm a better shot than that."

Yes, that is an exact quote. I still remember it today. The other player must have cheated. I'm too good to have missed him!

Second:

I'm crawling along the outside fence line of a "fort". An opposing player opens up on me through an opening in the wall from about 2 feet away. I scoot quickly past as he is yelling that I'm out, he hit me, don't wipe (you get the idea). I calmly turned around, crawled back to the opening in the fence, looked him in the eye and said "you have to shoot paint not just air...".

People thinking the other guy cheated and that's why they won has been going on forever.

Those who say "nice shot" and other complements seem to happen just as frequently also.

The biggest difference I see is the tolerance for overshooting seems to have gone way up these days. But that isn't part of this subject...

:cheers:



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Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
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[Muzikman]

There has always been cheating in this sport. Every sport you will have cheaters, it only becomes an issue when you get caught right? Well, the problem is the penalty for an offense is not strict enough if you are caught. This goes for overshooting, ramping (BPS or Velocity), wiping, etc.

As for velocity ramping, it is way too easy to do in the new electronic guns. I wouldn't be at all shocked if alot of stock boards are capable of doing it and the "feature" is just hidden.

Ya know, talking about ramping velocites and such. When was the last time you saw a ref pull out a cocker bolt to look at it before you chronoed your gun. This was common back in the early/mid 90's.

[Paintchucker]

I was accused of shooting hot when I went to play in April. It was about the third game with my gun, I had played with a rental the first half of day. Since I had only shot a couple hundred balls thru the gun and it had been sitting on the shelf for two years inactive, I said "Sure, let's go chrono. It might be hot..." We chrono'd the gun: 273, 275, 274 ... Field limit was 275 ... Nope, not hot here!!! How is that for AGD quality!!! But I did kinda come around the corner and scare the guy when I shot him, and it was not even that close... ;)


On the subject of velocity ramping... I have to ask WHY ??? If you don't have a consistant velocity, then how can you be accurate. Not to mention at higher FPS, the ball kinda get eratic anyway...

[Wc Keep]

i think people are just getting ballsier and getting closer in when shot. ive seen bad welts occur from 300 fps which in my mind is not shooting hot. ive seen just as bad welts occur from 350 as the 300. people are just getting hit in nasty manners.

and in tourneys a penalty is severe because a 20 point shooting hot penalty can cost your team from making the next round.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

...

Ya know, talking about ramping velocites and such. When was the last time you saw a ref pull out a cocker bolt to look at it before you chronoed your gun. This was common back in the early/mid 90's.

Exactly. Before electro's, the only real gun-cheat available was to artificially boost your velocity for extra range. An old tourney player explained it to me a while back, how they would do it with both Mags and Cockers.

[Jaan]

Exactly. Before electro's, the only real gun-cheat available was to artificially boost your velocity for extra range. An old tourney player explained it to me a while back, how they would do it with both Mags and Cockers.
Yeah ... tilt the gun, fill the valve with liquid CO2 ... FROOOM! Ah, the good old days (c:

[Chronobreak]

i think lohmans postcounts upto around 8 now :D

yeah ive had the hot shot thing happen lately.

heck i even had somone accuse me of using full-auto on my rt mag..which is more than 100%legal...how it was/is setup.

most of it is sore loosing, the same people that blame paint,guns,equipment ,blah blah blah

there is a cespool of it and among the accusations a small number of cheaters are among them and its hard to tell who is who.

we dont have any ways of checking such things, ex on the field on the fly(at the moment), msot refs chrono check or SHOULD atleast 2x a day..and upon player request.

i was requested to for "shooting hot"

i was shooting 280...the ironic part the accuser was shooting..297... :wow: :cuss:

i just ignore these people ad have a good time regardless

as for the shooting hot...what made him think that is the question i suppose..

is he just a sore looser, did the ball not break and hit really hard..

did it hit a soft spot on his chest/neck..i dont know nor do i care because i was following the field rules(btw i was about 45-60 feet away from him so it could have been another person OR...hes just weak :D ) because at 60~ feet the ball was probly at around 200fps or less by then anyways.. :argh:


whats the next accusation, ..steroids? :ninja: :spit_take
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[Jeffy-CanCon]

Yeah ... tilt the gun, fill the valve with liquid CO2 ... FROOOM! Ah, the good old days (c:

That's one, but he showed us a cheat for each marker that involved simple machining.

[Muzikman]

That's one, but he showed us a cheat for each marker that involved simple machining.

Can you PM me the tip for the Mag, again, I would not use it, but though the years I have not heard of any secret trick with the Mag.

The cocker is so easy if ya don't already know what it is, you would kick yourself if I told you.

Also, can anyone tell me why the beaver tail came about on cockers?

[onedude36]

Please pm me those old-school 'cheats' as well, for educational purposes only.

[Lohman446]

Guys.. it involves a lathe and the on-off pin... err, at least thats what I have "heard"

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[Evil Bob]

For the old schoolers out there, it was called "dial a welt" and was usually used when the balls were bouncing at range, so you turned up the welt factor to get the break. It was never condoned on any field or tourny that I played at, infact that is where the tourny velocity adjuster lock came from, to prevent people from messing around with their velocity settings once they got onto the field of play. Want to crank your velocity up on your mag? You need only the right allen wrench, no special voodoo magic or "tricks", just a common tool.

Any marker with a cpu controlled valve dwell has the potential to ramp velocity on the fly with or without the player intending to do so. A large portion of this is the manufacturing trying to keep the FPS up when their valve system can't really achieve peak pressure between shots at high RoF. Even today, the only valve system that can keep up at that rate of fire with peak pressure for each shot is still the AIR valve that Tom designed many moons ago. All these cpu controlled guns fake it by leaving the air valve open longer and allowing more gas into the chamber to compensate for the lack of peak pressure.

The potential to velocity ramp had been here for ages now, its just that people are becoming more aware of it that we're hearing more and more complaints about it.

-Evil Bob

[MadPSIence]

nobody gives vikings credit. they can shoot near 40bps with paint. there's video out there! (note: requires a Q-loader)

[Lohman446]

nobody gives vikings credit. they can shoot near 40bps with paint. there's video out there! (note: requires a Q-loader)


What in the name of... What did that have to do with anything currently in this thread?

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[Meph]

I guess what gets me, is those who loose seldom say we we're beat, the other team outplayed us.




Yes because I'm sure that the team would like to compliment them on their glorious victory after blatantly wiping and playing on.

That might be a reason why they don't say "they did better that us, we just couldn't pull it off." I'm sure if you are playing a game where you watch them wipe that shoulder hit to then shoot you... you want to congratulate/compliment them after the game!


Indeed.

[MarkM]

Also, can anyone tell me why the beaver tail came about on cockers?

Because if you push the rod at the same time as pulling the trigger the shot will go ballistic, though difficult to do it still works on the Eblade ;)