matrix cycling speed

[slade]

so i found a new field today, it just opened last week, and so far i love it. it has a really nice x-ball field, two decently sized woodsball fields, etc... what was i talking about now? oh yeah, matrices.

while i was at the field i started talking to some guy there who actually seemed pretty knowledgeable about paintball. that is, until he claimed he could legally shoot his matrix 35 bps, and has done so with paint. bs alarm goes off in my head. i argue with him about it. i loved the phrase he threw in "you have so much to learn about paintball". he clarifies that he was raking the trigger (well he didnt know the term raking so it took me a while to figure out what he was talking about) and was able to reach 35, which was displayed on the screen. i argue with him more, about how i dont really trust a company to correctly report something that could increase their sales, i want a sound graph. and then i tell him that with raking you essentially get 2 shots per pull (one moving your finger down, one up) so is he claming he can shoot 17.5 bps with one finger? he doesnt really answer that question and we argue a bit more.

but afterwards i started thinking, can a matrix even REACH 35 bps? i remember hearing twice that dm4s are mechanically capped at 21-22 bps, the spool valve simply cannot cycle faster. i know dm3s are of course very similar, but im not sure how different they are. what do they mechanically top out at?

[WenULiVeUdiE]

http://www.forceofnature.com/images/jake/speed.gif

I do not believe a matrix can cycle at 35, but I have nothing to back that up with.

[personman]

Ask him what kind of hopper he uses :)

[warbeak2099]

Well, a Qloader or Halo B with Vboard could handle that. He's obviously full of it but it's good for a laugh lol. Nothing to get upset about. Tell him you admire his ability to either lie so crappily or to believe everything the lcd screen says.

[magman007]

without modification, on the stock dwell of 18, the mechanically top out at about 23 bps. with good lube, and good reg ballancing, and some bolt polishing. you can get it down to 14 for dwell and get it up to about 27.

[slade]

Ask him what kind of hopper he uses :)
he said he was using an empire reloader b (heh, another point to make, i brought up the q-loader and he claimed it was much slower than the reloader b...)

that brings up another point though, i know this has been said before, but people always bring up drop tests and hold a full hopper out and say it can feed at say 35 bps, but on a marker the ball is stopped while the marker is firing, then loads quickly, then the marker fires again. so its not continually feeding and if the hopper can empty at a rate of 35 bps, that does not mean it can feed a marker at 35 bps.

[RRfireblade]

'Mechanically' it could be the fastest cycling marker in the world...

Unfortunately the soleniod in it is rated for 22CPS and can be push just slightly beyond that.

So absolutely not possible regardless of legallity....which we all know is complete BS on anything over 17-18 at the most.

[MadPSIence]

mechanically... mags, vikes, karnivores are faster.

[magman007]

it doesnt matter though, you are so damn dense. it doesnt matter. it doesnt need to cycle past 18 max.

[RRfireblade]

mechanically... mags, vikes, karnivores are faster.

Thanks for missing the point.

And based on maximum potential.....no, no they aren't.

[Automaggot68]

Thanks for missing the point.

And based on maximum potential.....no, no they aren't.
This is why he has a hate thread and you dont Jay.

BTW I had some questions about your PRS's...

[RRfireblade]

This is why he has a hate thread and you dont Jay.

BTW I had some questions about your PRS's...

It all good. No biggie.


And no, you can't have one. :D





(Got another on the way too BTW ;) , I might have a problem there too )

[Flow_Tech]

i KNOW my matrix shot atleast 25.it was done over a PACT timer with a freeflow board,anderson to be exact.

EDIT-whoever said mags,karnivores,and ______ were the fastest or whatever,definitly not true.my friends karnivore cant shoot anything over 22 without SERIOUS drop off,yet i can put my alias on uncapped ramping and just about outshoot a V35 HALO with minor drop off from a AKA 2 litre reg and AKA SCM3.

[Automaggot68]

i KNOW my matrix shot atleast 25.it was done over a PACT timer with a freeflow board,anderson to be exact.

EDIT-whoever said mags,karnivores,and ______ were the fastest or whatever,definitly not true.my friends karnivore cant shoot anything over 22 without SERIOUS drop off,yet i can put my alias on uncapped ramping and just about outshoot a V35 HALO with minor drop off from a AKA 2 litre reg and AKA SCM3.


You dont think that the drop off issues were remedied by the nice Reg, quality LPR or anything do you? :p

[slade]

'Mechanically' it could be the fastest cycling marker in the world...

Unfortunately the soleniod in it is rated for 22CPS and can be push just slightly beyond that.

So absolutely not possible regardless of legallity....which we all know is complete BS on anything over 17-18 at the most.
are you sure about that? i mean i know who you are and arent attempting to attack your credibility, but a lot of noids can cycle at least 50 times per second.

but then again, theres the ion which can only cycle 17...




im glad i have AO though, about a year ago i was talking with a ref at the field and asked him what dm4s are mechanically capped at... he said 100.

[deadbox101]

are you sure about that? i mean i know who you are and arent attempting to attack your credibility, but a lot of noids can cycle at least 50 times per second.

but then again, theres the ion which can only cycle 17...




im glad i have AO though, about a year ago i was talking with a ref at the field and asked him what dm4s are mechanically capped at... he said 100.

i thought the ion just had a capped board at 17? im pretty sure it can go higher than 17.

edit- plus i thought the solenoid in the emag was what stopped it from going over 24?

[Automaggot68]

i thought the ion just had a capped board at 17? im pretty sure it can go higher than 17.

edit- plus i thought the solenoid in the emag was what stopped it from going over 24?

Capped at 15 I thought because of those tourney rules and the like.

And Yes regarding the Mag noid, thats why I remember people sayin.

[RRfireblade]

are you sure about that? i mean i know who you are and arent attempting to attack your credibility, but a lot of noids can cycle at least 50 times per second.

but then again, theres the ion which can only cycle 17...




im glad i have AO though, about a year ago i was talking with a ref at the field and asked him what dm4s are mechanically capped at... he said 100.

There are definately soleniods that cycle faster than that but that's not the one used in most Matrixs.

Most paintball markers on the market today use a soleniod that's rated for 22-24cps.Depending the exact model, some can be pushed a little bit beyond that but there are other circumstances that effect how far they can be over driven in a given markers electronics package.

[Steelrat]

i KNOW my matrix shot atleast 25.it was done over a PACT timer with a freeflow board,anderson to be exact.

EDIT-whoever said mags,karnivores,and ______ were the fastest or whatever,definitly not true.my friends karnivore cant shoot anything over 22 without SERIOUS drop off,yet i can put my alias on uncapped ramping and just about outshoot a V35 HALO with minor drop off from a AKA 2 litre reg and AKA SCM3.

I had my viking at 31 bps (runaway bounce). From looking at the video of it, I can't see any noticeable dropoff.

[magman007]

the e-mag noid needs an amazingly large dwell time to opperate soundly every time. its something like 30ms

[Flow_Tech]

I had my viking at 31 bps (runaway bounce). From looking at the video of it, I can't see any noticeable dropoff.
no doubt,i know vikings rock.AKA rocks,but they arnt the fastest.

[insixdays777]

what marker has the fastest noid???

[Kallahan]

I have seen a proto cycle at 37 (Software set to full auto, don't worry though, not going to be in anyboard anytime soon) however I do not know if it was cycling properly.

I find the mech cap at 22 to be really low for a spool valve. Mechanically speaking they are the simpliest method for markers, with the least moving parts(only the bolt moves). I cannot see any cocker, however, shooting much over 22 BPS. Without racing the hammer at least, there is too much going on, having to wait for the hammer to open the valve before you recock takes precious milliseconds.

[minimag03]

no doubt,i know vikings rock.AKA rocks,but they arnt the fastest.

What is faster? I haven't seen any other marker firing a true 31 bps.

[personman]

What is faster? I haven't seen any other marker firing a true 31 bps.
Now you have (http://www.zakvetter.com/Videos/34bps.mov)

[minimag03]

Now you have (http://www.zakvetter.com/Videos/34bps.mov)

I guess I was thinking about being about to play while shooting that fast. I think the scuba might slow you down a bit, but you could be a killer back player.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

am I the only one who finds it sick that paintball is all bps now? just feels so wrong...

[MonsterMag]

am I the only one who finds it sick that paintball is all bps now? just feels so wrong...
I am with ya

Bps only concerns me when I am moving up on the field and need to lay down alot of fire for myself. Besides then its all accuracy and skill.

[minimag03]

I think it's kinda weird that we are on an automag forum, yet we talk about wating paint. Remember we were the ones "wasting" paint in the early 90s.

[Automaggot68]

I am with ya

Bps only concerns me when I am moving up on the field and need to lay down alot of fire for myself. Besides then its all accuracy and skill.


And trust me, You'll need alot of it.

[MonsterMag]

And trust me, You'll need alot of it.
I think you need more than I do.
Do us a favor and post less.

[Automaggot68]

I think you need more than I do.
Do us a favor and post less.


Do the REST of us a favor and follow my example then.

[-=Squid=-]

I think you need more than I do.
Do us a favor and post less.
Oh my God, great comeback, at least he has some credibility here.

Hint - you don't.

[MonsterMag]

Do the REST of us a favor and follow my example then.
You need to read
Me Posts: 573
You Posts: 1,677

Squid go sell macro

[-=Squid=-]

You need to read
Me Posts: 573
You Posts: 1,677

Squid go sell macro
Uhh... You used to have thousands of posts.

[Automaggot68]

Uhh... You used to have thousands of posts.

Yep, Emagballer.
You had more than I did when you had that name, and you had more post on that name than I do NOW.

[MonsterMag]

Wow that was great one . I never expected you to say that :tard:

[-=Squid=-]

Wow that was great one . I never expected you to say that :tard:
I swear to God, you are the biggest idiot on the internet.

[SlartyBartFast]

that brings up another point though, i know this has been said before, but people always bring up drop tests and hold a full hopper out and say it can feed at say 35 bps, but on a marker the ball is stopped while the marker is firing, then loads quickly, then the marker fires again.

All your questions are answered at WARPIG. The standard loader test shows what loaders can do on a marker.

Those tests alone prove many of those boasting super high BPS wrong.

[SlartyBartFast]

I had my viking at 31 bps (runaway bounce). From looking at the video of it, I can't see any noticeable dropoff.

You can SEE drop-off?

:rofl:

What a joke.

And the video was shot at how many frames per second?

And how exactly would you be able to see drop off?

You'd need a chrono or need to chart the path of all the paintballs.... :rolleyes:

[SlartyBartFast]

I guess I was thinking about being about to play while shooting that fast. I think the scuba might slow you down a bit, but you could be a killer back player.

Yeah that's right. The Mag needs a SCUBA, but every other marker can magically be supplied enough air flow from standard tanks. :rolleyes:

Let's see the other markers doing it off-field with a SCUBA before we believe any on-field claims.

[MonsterMag]

I swear to God, you are the biggest idiot on the internet.
You so just crushed my self esteem.

[-=Squid=-]

The mag needed a scuba because it was mechanical, and needed a high input pressure so it would runaway.

If he was getting significant dropoff, it would be noticable because it would cause the entire
stream of paint to slowly begin declining.

Have you not even seen the videos posted by Zman and Steelrat with the mags and vikings?

You just made yourself look like an idiot for posting all that.

And Monstermag, that's the goal. Always remember, noone likes you.

[slade]

All your questions are answered at WARPIG. The standard loader test shows what loaders can do on a marker.

Those tests alone prove many of those boasting super high BPS wrong.
heh, thanks. i saw that before but forgot about it.

and that test shows that the fastest an lcd matrix can load and shoot properly with a halo b w/ victory is 20-22 bps. that guy was claming 35 with the same marker and almost the same hopper :rolleyes:

[billmi]

heh, thanks. i saw that before but forgot about it.

and that test shows that the fastest an lcd matrix can load and shoot properly with a halo b w/ victory is 20-22 bps. that guy was claming 35 with the same marker and almost the same hopper :rolleyes:

Some things to keep in mind....

The hopper tests on WARPIG were testing for maximum rate of fire, sustained over 10 shots. That's not the same as the max reachable, with one or two shots out of a string, which can be higher.

Also, I have yet to compare any display equipped 'gun that accurately reported the ROF it was shooting.

[slade]

Some things to keep in mind....

The hopper tests on WARPIG were testing for maximum rate of fire, sustained over 10 shots. That's not the same as the max reachable, with one or two shots out of a string, which can be higher.

Also, I have yet to compare any display equipped 'gun that accurately reported the ROF it was shooting.
yes, but he was claiming a SUSTAINED 35 bps.

[Steelrat]

You can SEE drop-off?

:rofl:

What a joke.

And the video was shot at how many frames per second?

And how exactly would you be able to see drop off?

You'd need a chrono or need to chart the path of all the paintballs.... :rolleyes:

Thats an awfully hostile tone isn't it?

Yes, you can see drop off. What I mean by "drop off" is when the balls are leaving at progressively lower and lower velocities because the airflow can't keep up with the cycling. So, as the gun is firing, you will see the impact point of the balls steadily move towards you as velocity decreases. When firing 100 balls at a pretty consistant 31 bps, it should be fairly obvious if the gun is suffering from airflow problems.

No, I didn't chart them. I used the Mk I eyeball device to conclude that there was no NOTICEABLE dropoff. The video has been thoroughly scrutinized on here and PBN by now, so please keep your sarcasm in check.

[Steelrat]

Yeah that's right. The Mag needs a SCUBA, but every other marker can magically be supplied enough air flow from standard tanks. :rolleyes:

Let's see the other markers doing it off-field with a SCUBA before we believe any on-field claims.

Another case of you spouting off without getting your facts straight first. The issue with mags isnt airflow, its pressure. The mag in that video needed about 2500 psi AT THE VALVE to bounce enough to get 34 bps. Please, O Wise One, tell me what paintball tank outputs 2500 psi?

My viking did the 31 bps with a dynaflow because it was using electronic bounce to hit that speed, not the mechanical bounce the mag was using.

[Automaggot68]

Another case of you spouting off without getting your facts straight first. The issue with mags isnt airflow, its pressure. The mag in that video needed about 2500 psi AT THE VALVE to bounce enough to get 34 bps. Please, O Wise One, tell me what paintball tank outputs 2500 psi?

My viking did the 31 bps with a dynaflow because it was using electronic bounce to hit that speed, not the mechanical bounce the mag was using.


Why do you even try Ryan?
They're just going to nit pick at something else man

[slade]

Please, O Wise One, tell me what paintball tank outputs 2500 psi?
one with a gutted reg and new burst disc? :D

sorry, just had to say it :p everything youre saying is right though.

[UTDragun]

Id like to see a test with sustained fire with a Cheetah Halo.
does anyone know the max input voltage on the motor?

[SCpoloRicker]

I think it's kinda weird that we are on an automag forum, yet we talk about wating paint. Remember we were the ones "wasting" paint in the early 90s.

But my cocker has better range and accuracy!1 :)

/I KNOW that my _______ hit 46bps. I KNOW it just liek I KNOW that the guy that shot me was hot. I KNOW it!

[UTDragun]

What about the MQ cocker?
What were the specs of that 31bps viking?

[UTDragun]

To me, BPS is like horse power, once you get over 400 it doesnt matter how much you have, you can still outrun that 'cruiser.....uhh i mean after you get over 400, its all just a "status" thing, just like clock speed on computer processors

[Steelrat]

It was a 2k4 stock viking with a mighty max and a WAS board. I had a dynaflow tank on it. I just set it up to be very bouncey at DB 1.

[SCpoloRicker]

Pie?

Who ate all the PIE!?>!1