Did AGD hurt themselves by making such a durable marker?

[Boy_Wonder]

Let me just start by saying that I love the my ULE RT and wouldn't trade it for anything. After watching Z-Man's video http://www.zakvetter.com/Videos/RT%20Dunk%20n%20Shoot%20Test.mov, I reassured myself of how nice a gun I really own.

All this talk about the Ion and how it's supposedly just a disposable marker got me thinking about the business end from Smart Parts point of view. The marketing scheme is so one-sided that it's just a joke to me to read what kind of propaganda bull**** that they're spewing out. At the same time though, it's still great marketing because the demand is so huge and people are buying into it.

I've never shot an Ion, I can only gather information from what I've read here and heard elsewhere. I did hold one, and it didn't feel nearly as heavy duty as my mag...felt more like a toy. If it is true that the guns will start falling apart after a year or two, instead of fixing the old parts, it probably would be cheaper to buy a whole new gun. Smart Parts advertises that the Ion is a High-end tournament grade marker out of the box. I've heard that it is a good gun, but many don't consider it to be as high as they promote it out of the box, it needs a couple hundred in upgrades.

My point is, my ULE RT out of the box needed no performance upgrades at all because it's such an amazing gun. I also am confident that no major parts will fail if I do proper maintenance. Is this what paintball has come down to, large companies selling low quality guns so that the instead of replacing several parts on a broken gun, the customer just buys a new one? Are we seeing an end to high quality guns that could possibly last a life time?

[VFX_Fenix]

Hate to break it to you, but the reason the RT ULE doesn't "need" any performance upgrades out of the box is because there "are" no performance upgrades for the Automag as of the writting of this reply that are currently in production. I hate to be anti-fanboy here, but it is the truth. The only upgrades you can buy for the Automag are either cosmetic (and there are very few of those) prefference (like a ULE rail or ULT kit) or are used bits like E-Mag lowers/Hyperframes/etc. and lastly home grown mods like the Spyder-Mag.

Here in lies the problem with AGD and its gun design, it's old and hasn't changed in the 15 some odd years that it's been around. The only other gun that's as old as the Automag is the Autococker for high end mechanical guns. The concept of the stacked blow-back is older than dirt as well but we'll ignore them for the sake of argument.

However, I think the biggest issue I have is the notion that the RT ULE is the "perfect gun" and guns like the Ion are not perfect either because of speculation on their longevity/durability, their feel in the hand, or simply dislike of the company. How many people have stripped screws or broken bits on their Ions because they're trying to install a non-Ion specific QEV mod or just through general maintinance? How many people have done similar things to Impulses, Bushmansters, Angels, Matrixes, Vikings, etc. etc. etc.? How many Splatmasters, Crossmann 3357's, SMG 60's, KP2's, etc. etc. etc. still survive to this day?

Short answer, all of them have been broken, and few of the older guns from the atiquety of this sport survive. Why? Neglect, impropper handling, carelessness, abuse, tinkering, normal wear and tear, all of the above.

People have broken Automags, as hard as that might be to believe, however I would bet that the majority of all gun failures are directly due to "pilot error". I know one guy who can take any gun and within a week have it broken just from him having it and poking around inside it.

Please, don't misunderstand, I believe that the Automag is a quality product and well built. However if you look at the cost of purchasing an Automag compaired to even its closest niche competitor, you'll see that the 'Mag is more expensive and less easily customized/upgraded than the Autococker. From stricktly a dollars and cents stand point, the Automag loses to the AC on all fronts except possibly for ease of use, however, that is a prefference item and so isn't a valid point.Sure, you can buy a 'Mag for around $500 shipped. For $70 more you can have a Super Stock 'Cocker which IS a tourney ready gun. In this day and age when BPS is King and electros rule, the Automag is sadly out of it's league in raw "legal" firepower. COnsider that the average Joe can pull 10-12 bps walking a perfectly legal semi-auto only gun. Consider that you need to be an exceptional individual to achieve that kind of ROF on an Automag without using the RT or some flavor of E-Frame.

What does the Ion have going for it? Hype, but not hype from Smart Parts, hype from players who've used this gun. Call it novelty, call it marketing, call it what ever you like, but people have taken notice of the little electro blow-forward with break-beam eyes with a little price-tag. Back to the issue though. Do I think that my Ion will break within 2 or 3 years? No. People call Spyders throw-away guns, I owned my Spyder TL for 3 years and hadn't had to replace anything on it besides the occational O-Ring and Cup Seal. Do I believe that Smart Parts is putting out the best quality they can in the Ion? No. Do I know the future of the Ion and if it will in fact last longer than 1 or 2 years for the average paintball owner? No, but I'd be willing to bet that most of the Ions purchased WILL be irreparibly broken within the first 2 years of ownership by an individual. Why? Because of a handful of factors, first is the cost, since the gun itself is so cheap it will tend to be attractive to new players, second is who will most likely own the Ions. Like I said, all you have to do is look at the number of people who break their Ion/Impulse/Timmy/Matrix/Whatever within the first 6 months of ownership because of any number of reasons, up to and including tinkering and blind ignorance of how to be "careful" with equipment.

Honestly, how many guns have you ever seen go down because they were propperly taken care of? Because a part wore out through normal use? I've seen a few, my guns included. How many guns have you seen go down because of abuse, rough play, and neglect? A lot more, and I'll be willing to bet that they've been owned by newbies, posers, or people who just don't care about their gear.

The Automag is a fine gun, well built and solid. It isn't the best gun in the world, it lacks the efficiency of certain other markers when well tuned, it lacks raw firepower upgrades, it lacks a lot of public exposure, and finally it weighs more than guns of similar size. The latter two are prefference issues and have little to do with actual product quality/value. However the first two are reasonably big. The Automag isn't a gun that can be run on a 68/45 and expect to be able to shoot 7 pods plus a hopper, nor is it a gun that you can just buy an aftermarket electro trigger frame for.

EDIT - AGD didn't hurt themselves by building a quality product, they dangled themselves by their ties from the yard-arm when they decided not to advertise their products and an image. AGD is an engineering company, not marketing, but without marketing, it doesn't matter how good or bad your product is, if no one knows about it, it might as well not exist at all.

[Jaan]

Amen :hail:

[shartley]

VFX_Fenix is pretty much spot on. And many of these things have been discussed here on AO over the years. Unfortunately what has happened is that while some would look at issues logically and rationally, the diehard zealots would hold to the party line. If the marker chopped it was user error, not the marker’s fault…. even if the same user could shoot every other marker without chopping. If folks wanted different looks, it was simply their problem, Mags didn’t NEED to look any different than they did. AGD didn’t NEED to have all sorts of accessories like all the other markers available to the public. If someone suggested using aluminum (as all the other companies were using) they were dismissed as suggesting the downfall of AGD and the creation of an unsuitable marker. And on and on we go….

But now look… some (in fact most) of these issues have been addressed. And the party line has changed along with it. Seems to me the old AO/AGD mantra about free thinking and not falling for hype and the beliefs of others only applied to those outside AO/AGD, but within the circle you had better stay the party line or be branded a problem or anti-AGD. Only AGD customers who agreed with everything AGD did were looked upon as “real” AO Members and those who didn’t were just here to cause problems and simply didn’t love AGD and Mags as much as everyone else. That idea however is preposterous and could not be farther from the truth.

As VFX stated, AGD has hurt itself with poor marketing over the years as well as the lack of accessories or “choices” for the average customer. Their choice of manufacturing processes and materials have also hurt them. And their resistance to change and adapt to the market they are trying to compete in has hurt them. AGD may be able to claim being the first at certain things, or revolutionary in certain things, but that was in the beginning….. from that point on they have been a step behind.

This does not mean their markers are not great markers. But let’s face it, some of us out there still prefer to play with VERY old markers, but that is not what the majority of the paintball public wants. And how would folks like to go to their favorite auto manufacturer to see the latest cars on the lot and find 20 year old cars sitting there with “new” names and a couple new trim changes? And would it really matter if they were not mothballed cars, but newly made ones that were still 20 year old designs? Heck, even the new Mustang is a new car, even if it incorporates some retro styling.

AGD is starting to address some issues , and I hope they address more. I believe that much of their direction now is dictated by budget and what they can afford to do. I don’t know this for a fact, but it seems logical.

So in closing, I don’t believe AGD hurt themselves by making such a durable marker. I believe they hurt themselves by separating themselves from the things the average customer wanted, as well as inadequate advertising. I believe also that the cost associated with their markers didn’t help them. And I don’t want to hear how they HAD to price their markers the way they did, or that the markers were WORTH the price. Neither of those things I will argue against. But I have said for years that in spite of that, it is hard to convince the average customer to pay more for a Mag than the marker sitting next to it that appears to offer so much more… more styling, more options, more upgrades, more everything.

[NASurfer]

Oh gosh there are so many threads about this. I'll chip in my 2 cents here because Im tend to do more reading then posting and Id like to post my point of view on this matter. Im an avid player. I love my mags. They shoot straight and are ultra reliable. Usually whenever I decide to play with my old school mag, I get nothing but respect from some of the other players at my field. The ones that have had negative things to say (the ones that say they chop, they are such terrible blenders), come away impressed when at the end of the day, I havent chopped a single ball.

The point of that story was that I think the best way for people to see how great they are, is simply to show up to a field and show them. You ever notice the ones that with the preconceived notions are the ones who havent shot a mag or shot one years ago and dident know what they were doing? Of course its kinda hard for people to see when I see like 1 or 2 mags at my field a month that arent mine.

I know this thread is about to be taken over by some defensive guys who see nothing wrong with the direction AGD is heading. Keep in mind that all of us here are Maggers who want to see AGD do well. Could AGD have something under their sleeve that will bring them into the mainstream? Maybe, we dont work for AGD so we dont know.

Granted a huge portion of the paintball market goes to the flavor of the month. But that doesen't stop some other great guns (Autocockers, Angels) from selling. You know it is possible to have a great gun that sells.

[funeralplanner]

I was at a big game this weekend. I was using my ULE Xvalve mag, and my buddy was using his Ion. By the end of the day, his Ion wouldn't shoot over 210fps so he ended up using my old 68 mag. ;)

By the way, I was surprised to see 4 other mags. One person was using a tac as well.... Mags are just known as a "tough" guns.

I don't understand where people get that cockers are tourney guns and mags aren't. If you mean they are upgradeable, maybe, but not cause they are fast. What makes a tourney gun, and what doesn't?? I always thought it was the player, not the gun...

[Alpha]

Smart parts is just a company here to sell you stuff.

AGD is a company devoted to making moral decisions, and making the sport a better place.

When it was run by Tom, AGD was definetly the company doing the most for paintball. With TK we got semis, we got nitro, and the mag.

Smart parts has sued as many companies as they can. Its obvious if they had their way, we would all be using parts licensed and sold by SP. Its obvious they want a paintball monopoly, and they've tried it. Look at how most people feel towards other companies that tried to do the same thing. Rockafellar did it... Calling Smart parts nazis IS an accurate metaphor. Hitler tried to take over the world and get rid of anythign he deemed not fit to survive. Look at what smartparts is doing to the paintball industry (or at least what they did until wdp wised up to them). Compare it to saddam in the gulf war. He tried to take over the middle east too.

In conclusion, AGD only fell because they have a backbone. Plain and simple. Unless they come out with something crazy and new, mags are always going to be found here at AO, and at our scattered AO games.

I say more power to AGD for not buying in to the propegandist hype-marketed consumer ripoffs. Even though it may mean their downfall, they've done more for this sport then any other company.

[Blazestorm]

I've never shot an Ion, I can only gather information from what I've read here and heard elsewhere. I did hold one, and it didn't feel nearly as heavy duty as my mag...felt more like a toy.

My point is, my ULE RT out of the box needed no performance upgrades at all because it's such an amazing gun. ?

ULE-RT without upgrades sucks. Non-clamping feedneck, single-trigger, no barrel, weird angled ASA, SS Hose that scratches the x-valve, foregrip bracket that can't be removed without a new rail.

Ion shoots faster, is lighter, smaller, and cheaper. And has an eye system, LVL-10 isn't perfect, neither are eyes, but I trust eyes more.

[muskratjim]

hey ao, AGD did not hurt themselves by makigna great gun, they hurt themselves by not keeping up. like it or not ramping is here to stay it is not going to go away. i am tired of all the complaining about fireware. RRfireblade's side progect would have been great for mags and everthing and agd probably been able to put emags or xmags back into production, considering that wpg would probably licenced the patent just to stick it sp, but because of some very vocal people have complained about ramping and tom's silence on the mater it's probably never going to happen which sucks because i would love just to upgrade my emag intead of having to buy someone elses marker that 1 cost to much and 2 is not as reliable. it is time for ao to ehter get with the flow or quit complaining. nobody said that you had to buy the software updates or new boards, but don't stop the r/d for those who want to stay current. and don't tell me that this would not help agd because i already own my mag becuase if updated feature were avaliable and new e/xmags were in production i would buy 2 more for my kids.

p.s. i've ordered the new pred board from tag :rofl: :rofl:

[WARPED1]

Are we seeing an end to high quality guns that could possibly last a life time?
Yes. Paintball is all about the upgrades. Most companies make more money selling upgrades to markers. Look at Autocockers. They'd be in the same boat as mags if Bud had just built them super durable out of the box, and needing no upgrades.
Is the mag a bad gun? No. As much as I may complain about Mags and AGD's lack of marketing and how horrid it is or rather its non existance, I will never say it's a bad gun. Maybe a bad looking gun, but not a bad gun itself.
The quality and tolerences are so good and precise, aftermarket companies cannot make a decent aftermarket part for it. Look at ANS valves or even Diamond Labs. Great ideas, and partially thier fault for not having tighter tolerances, but not spending as much money on R+D for someone elses marker is not thier fault, maybe if the had thier own gun and they made parts for that.
All in all, AGD needs to design a whole new gun. Not just the body. They need to internalize the valve totaly, drop the name Automag, and allow for upgrading, build 3 versions. A base model for unlimited upgrading, an intermidiate model which has some upgrades already, then a pro model fully upgraded. And to show a company that has already done that, Smart Parts. The Ion. the Shocker, the Nerve.

[Creative Mayhem]

"Did AGD hurt themselves by making such a durable marker?"

This statement is soo true, while people don't want to agree with it.. it is a big factor in AGD's success and subsequent downspiral. If ain't broke, why fix it?

I love AGD and other than my AMP Illusion, I shoot nothing but mags, and I will continue to do so for a long time thanks to AGD's forward thinking in designing such and advanced, yet simple product. I really is a shame that people are such sheep and will follow the heard no matter where they are going...

[yakitori]

Mags are not flawless ya know. they are durable, but not maintainance free. Ive had lvl 10 leaks that needed tuning do to breaking in, same w/ ULT and stock on/off. Ive had to replace valve seat orings and seat holders. Ive had foamies fly off many times. Ive had to replace a sear before.

Its all in what you look into it. All I hear from a lot of ppl is that I would never shoot an Ion cause its crap, it will break in two years, its a disposable gun. etc. etc. , but I havent seen that yet. Like VFX said, or implied, most problems ppl have w/ guns is from abuse, mistreament, etc. Ions are not the best gun on the market, but they shoot great, ppl find that out for themselves, and then brag about it. Call it hype, call it what you will, the ion shoots great. Better than a mag IMO, and Ive owned mags for a while. I have put many cases through my Ion already and cleaned and assembled the reg, bolt, banjo fittings, cleaned the noid internals, etc. Ive had no problems whatsoever. Not a leak, no shootdown, nothing.....knock on wood. :D. Of course parts wear out from use. Most of the time its just seals, etc. When they do, replace them.....yo dont throw your gun away. I think the plastic body is decieving, because the gun is made of aluminum. I guess the aluminum firing chamber and breach could wear out from those seals and air going through them. :rolleyes:

[Number13]

Smart parts has sued as many companies as they can. Its obvious if they had their way, we would all be using parts licensed and sold by SP. Its obvious they want a paintball monopoly, and they've tried it. Look at how most people feel towards other companies that tried to do the same thing. Rockafellar did it... Calling Smart parts nazis IS an accurate metaphor. Hitler tried to take over the world and get rid of anythign he deemed not fit to survive. Look at what smartparts is doing to the paintball industry (or at least what they did until wdp wised up to them). Compare it to saddam in the gulf war. He tried to take over the middle east too.
In that quote, Alpha states that the man John D. Rockefeller, the company Smart Parts, the man Saddam Hussein, and the Nazi political party are all logical equivalents based on their actions. His statement is ridiculous. First, he compares two humans to a business entity to a political tag—these are not comparable classes. Second, the actions which he criticizes each identity for are not morally comparable. The Nazi party espoused racial holocaust: the physical eradication of other human beings in the belief that the founders of the Nazi party held an innate, genetic right to kill other genetic lines. Hussein reportedly authorized and supported genocide in the continuation of a very old ethnic war over territory. Rockefeller conglomerated his supply and distribution chains under his ownership, and he signed contracts which benefited his business ventures while severely hindering his competitors—he was a shrewd man who was very good at succeeding, and for the majority of his life he did succeed at his goals regardless of the costs to others. Smart Parts owned a patent, and enforced the patent in court through a sanctioned legal process.

While Alpha may feel that defending a patent in court is morally equivalent to slaughtering individuals by the truckload for no other reason than that they are a different ethnicity than the killers, I do hope the rest of AO will never bother with such an imbecilic comparison again.

Perhaps try considering where Smart Parts would have been in 10 years if they didn’t set the court precedent for this patent when they did? With the conglomerating of the paintball industry, with very large sports companies buying out the established paintball industry leaders, Smart Parts would stand to be eaten up or pushed out of the way. The Gardners protected their company in the smartest way possible: they secured the rights to the most desired technology in the game. If they didn’t set the legal precedent by defending the patent they own against some smaller companies, then they wouldn’t have been able to afford to defend it against K2. It’s hard for even a company like K2 to beat you in sales of high-end markers if they have to ask you permission to make the things. K2 thinks it has a way around it with the pneumatic frames it bought off of PTP. Smart Parts tried to secure its own future, and yeah, they had to step on some toes to do it. We’ll have to see the results of the pneuframes before we can know how well they’ve done. I won’t hold a grudge against them for trying to protect their livelihood. And it is not their job to keep their competitors in business—nor should it be.


As much as I may complain about Mags and AGD's lack of marketing and how horrid it is or rather its non existance, I will never say it's a bad gun. Maybe a bad looking gun, but not a bad gun itself.
Cheers to that.


Finally, I do not believe AGD hurt itself by selling such a durable product. They did not catch a large enough market share to worry about that. There are so many players out there who don't own mags, that having a marker that lasts for several decades would not limit their ability to sell new markers. Many of their other decisions, previously discussed, caused them to not just stagnate on market share, but to considerably lose it for awhile. I've seen some people write that it is now growing again.

-Matt

[Evil Bob]

Actually, they had a huge market share back in the early to mid 90's when the automag was the defacto standard for a tournament marker and the fastest thing out there.

What hurt AGD was the fact that they decided to not produce an electric marker and sat back and waited when the shocker and the angel hit the scene, getting left in the dust. Around that same time they also produced the next gen mech mag (the RT) which was extremely fast and extremely harsh on paint. The RT single handedly gave mags the rep of being blenders, and that spread like wild fire through the paintball community, and it is my opinion that the RT was a major contributor to AGD's downfall.

People flocked to the new technology because it was fast and cutting edge, and AGD was stuck behind the power curve for the first time. Granted they had the fastest recharging valve system in the game, but it wasn't enough to hold the masses attention.

-Evil Bob

[SCpoloRicker]

Good old Godwin. Can always count on him showing up. :cool: