Should Logic Produce an Electro Frame?

[UTDragun]

please?

[peewee]

I'm for it... Coolhand??? PLease!!!!!

[TheTramp]

Not if it'll be another bait and switch (to nothing) like all the other Mag upgrades these days. :(

[BigEvil]

Im sure no one realises what a royal PINTA an undertaking such as that would be.

What I suguest, is to make one of the frames he already produces, be able to fit Spyder frame componenets, for all of us DIY'ers out here. You have take a frame, make the SYpder Noid (reversed for the mag), cap, board, switch, ect drop right it.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Just make us up a frame that has solenoid and predator board mounting points. PLEASE! We need an electro frame for the DIYers! The price of EMag lowers and/or a devilmag frame is just offputting!

[AGDlover]

I'd have to see it and price is also a factor

[MadPSIence]

I would buy it, considering Hyperframes aren't made anymore and these devilframes alone cost 450 bucks..

[dynastyfan]

i would if i still had my mag :( but its okay because i plan on owning another some day

[JoshK]

i would if i still had my mag :( but its okay because i plan on owning another some day

I concure.

-Josh

[Muzikman]

I think someone building a frame that could accept a Pred board and the emag noid would be interesting. I am also wondering if it would get around the patent issues since the frame it's self would only be mechanical.

[Muzikman]

I would buy it, considering Hyperframes aren't made anymore and these devilframes alone cost 450 bucks..

You do realize that no matter who makes the frame, the cost will still be right around there right? Think about all the parts that go into an electro frame. Then think about how many you will sell. Then think about the overhead to create the frame. $450 is a good price.

[dolphin1823]

I had asked a simular question last month, not to Logic but a general question as to why couldn't someone improve the Centerflag and Boo-Yaa designs and make a reliable E-frame for Automags. Someone replied that there wouldn't be enough intrest :confused:
Hopefully this poll will show someone ( Like Logic ) that there would be intrest in an E-frame for Automags. And does it have to be $400? You can a buy slap on E-frame for the Spyder for $90 from paintballgear.com. We don't need a fancy board with lots of modes, or ramping and there are no eyes so we don't need that programing, I'd say just a E-frame that we can get a good ROF in Semi-mode. $90 for the frame plus the cost for the board and interals, what would that be?
I'd buy one. :cheers:

[Muzikman]

It would be $400

Boards are not cheap to make, look at the cost of the Pred board. Then you need a sear, noid and switch. Sure you could make a "cheap" frame, but it would not function well and people would complain of crappy quality.

[dolphin1823]

It would be $400

Boards are not cheap to make, look at the cost of the Pred board. Then you need a sear, noid and switch. Sure you could make a "cheap" frame, but it would not function well and people would complain of crappy quality.

Boards can't be that much...look at E-Spyders and Ions their whole markers are $200-$400.
What about a board with semi-only? The Pred board is like $150ish but look at all the features it has:

Features:

· One single 1-11/16 x 7/16" circuit board; small enough to fit in any marker.
· Electronically adjust all settings using the trigger.
· Tournament lock DIP switch disables all trigger programming.
· Instant boot, ready to fire. Disable the eyes by holding the trigger for three seconds.
· Adjustable dwell, eye delay, trigger anti-bounce, and fire cycle delay.
· Adjustable ABS activation time and dwell increase.
· Adjustable ramping activation speed and maximum ROF for all firing modes
· Compatable with intellifeed hoppers; adjustable intellifeed pulse duration
· Compatable with either reflective or beam-break anti-chop eyes. Advanced eye software provides for no invisible paint colors, even when using the darkest paintshells with relfective eyes.
· Upgradeable with future software images.
· The Predator monitors the movement of the bolt from shot-to-shot and utilizes eighteen different internal eye modes which it automatically selects based upon seven different timers and nine trigger points. The board validates how effectively the marker is firing between shots and will adapt as quickly as possible for the next.
· Board can switch a blinding 30 volts at 37 amperes with 0.031-W impedance; over one megawatt of power capacity.

Fire modes:
· Semiautomatic
· Autoresponse
· Fully-automatic
· AFA soft - debounce ramping
· AFA hard - ROF ramping
· Breakout mode for both ramping types (first shot fullyauto)
· NXL/PSP 1-2-3 shot fullyauto (capped at the mROF setting)
· NXL/PSP 1-2-3 shot fullyauto (15-bps capped)
Dual-solenoid markers don't have ramping modes however they do have two additional semautomatic modes to offer a different choice in firing. Available is sniper mode which will wait until you release the trigger to recock the bolt, and cocker mode which holds the bolt open as long as the trigger is compressed.

[teufelhunden]

Uh, I wouldn't look at E-Spyders as the pinnacle of electronic quality. Furthermore, Kingman buys in huge quantities, driving down the cost.

[BigEvil]

The point is, to make a frame that you could put what ever you want in it.

DOnt have $150 for a predator board? How about $60 for a t-board?
DOnt want to use a spyder noid? Try Solenoid city.

Get the idea?

Basically, make a blank frame, with a few well placed mounting points. Make it easy to put a switch in, a board, ect.

I think it would be BIG

Not ION big, but maybe ULT big. Im sure he'd have no problems selling them.

[Muzikman]

Difference is that they are making IONs and Spyders by the tens of thousands. They can get price breaks on those kinds of quantity.

Features mean very little. To add an extra jack on to a board or use one processor vs another does not play a big role in the final cost. Even the programming could be done reletivly cheap.

[LudavicoSoldier]

I am NOT talking about a complete electro frame for the mag. More of a DIY frame that can support both mech and electro internals. Something that you could make into an electro if you wanted, with the correct parts. I DO NOT want a finished product.

As BigEvil stated, a blank frame with well placed mount points. To sell it would need to be able to be used with mech internals as well.

[TheTramp]

Exactly. The frame wouldn't cost much more because the only difference is that it's have mouning brackets. You 'd have to get all the other parts yourself.

It's also get around the doom and gloomers who are afraid of getting sued (not that this is trivial).

[SummaryJudgement]

I'd rather see logic do a new body myself. Something that would fit the look of the alpha rail would be real cool. I really like the vert frame, but the only reason I haven't gotten an alpha rail is because I use the logic vert frame on my karta and have a rogue dallara rail on my ule with all rogue parts. If logic had a cool body design, I'd get that plus the alpha so I could have an all logic mag, much like my all rogue mag (almost, thinking about the exile body for the my dallara rail) :D

[Muzikman]

Correct, but the parts to finish it off are not going to be cheap.

Frame $100
Board: $150
Solenoid: $40
Switch: $10
Sear: $50

That's $350 right there.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Not really looking for the cheapest solution. Rather, I am looking for what you might equate to a mag tinkerers wet dream, an mech frame which can be upgraded to electro without any machining. That way you can decide for yourself what you want in the frame. We have seen quite a few custom electro/pneu mags, but they all required access to machine tools to complete. Don't make me bust out the Dremel, please!

[Muzikman]

I agree. But just about everyone in this thread has also said "don't make it cost $400". I am just pointing out that I don't see anyone making a slap on frame for a Mag for much less.

[LudavicoSoldier]

True, it does not seem to be worth it to sell a slap on frame for less than $400. You could kinda offset the "ouch" factor on you wallet by buying components seperately over a span of time.

[BigEvil]

Correct, but the parts to finish it off are not going to be cheap.

Frame $100
Board: $150
Solenoid: $40
Switch: $10
Sear: $50

That's $350 right there.

$350 is still better than $400, and at least you wouldnt have to wait 2 years to get a finished, working product in your hands.


Besides, you could go the no-frill rout
Logic Frame (Proposed) $130
Spyder frame off of ebay w/tboard $100. you could theoretically swap out the parts
-noid
-cap
-board
-switch

Your mag would already have a sear. I think going the route Centerflag did with the hyperframe in regards to the mag sear would be the way to do it. You take off the pivot and rod.

So, it is may be possible to do it for less than $300 easily if you really wnated to.

If you wanted to put better components in, than you could do that also.

.

[Muzikman]

You could, but the frame would have to be made to take specific components or else mounting brackets and holes would not line up.

Also, if you are going to use spyder guts, you have to make sure you are also using the ULT kit as the stock on/off would burn up the noid.

[WingMan13]

Hell, I'd be happy if someone just made a Automag compatible sear that I could just drop into my Spyder frame. :D

[dolphin1823]

well looking at the poll results so far, it looks like the - "don't have the $" and " no don't make the frame" are together beating the " yes make the frame" people. If this is the case, then I guess there wouldn't be enough intrest in an E-frame to be made by anyone. :cry: sad, but true. So this should be the end of this discussion for all time and we can discuss more important matters, like... Are you going to see the Dukes of Hazard Movie? ;) :rofl: :rofl:

[LudavicoSoldier]

I would think the ULT would be instrumental in ANY newer electro mag conversion. Why use a big noid if you dont have to?

[CoolHand]

OK, I've got a CAD file that I have been working on, on and off again ever since I started doing Mag parts.

It is an electropneumatic bolt on frame.

Two things have stopped me thus far from releasing it:

1) PTP's patent swooped in just before the announcement the first time, kinda killed my joy on it, but licensing is always an option I suppose.

2) The uber high cost, and not 100% smooth integration of the LPR.

So, my questions to you all are:

Would you pay the $375-$400 that a complete frame would cost? Yes or No. (No maybes allowed).

Would it suit you better to have it come without a board, LPR, VA, etc and be cheaper?

Could you deal with the LPR hanging off the VA and running a gas thru foregrip?

Obviously these would be a limited run, likely less than 50 or so, and they would take some time to be built (hopefully nothing like the DMags now, but you never know, I have been screwed by anodizers in the past, much like Chris has with his machinist).

I will say one thing right now. I am not going to take the crap that Chris is putting up with now. You go into a project like this knowing it may take 6 months or more to get it done, and that it is going to be a pay up front and wait it out kind of deal. No refunds, and no changing your minds half way in. Its just too high dollar of a project to go out of pocket on.

The ball is in your court guys, let me know what you think.

[Muzikman]

If you promise to not run away with my money I would do it.:) Time for me is not an issue. But I also think that any wear items need to be able to be replaced with common parts (ie. no custom LPR, etc..).

[CoolHand]

If you promise to not run away with my money I would do it.:) Time for me is not an issue. But I also think that any wear items need to be able to be replaced with common parts (ie. no custom LPR, etc..).

Oh yes, I am all about off-the-shelf parts and standard sized screws, etc.

All wear items would be hardened and replaceable from most hardware stores, or McMaster Carr at the worst.

I had planned to use Cocker LPR's to further reduce costs and make the thing more customizable/compartmentalized (IE you don't have to buy an LPR if you already have one).

That sort of thing is in my blood. At my core, I am an engineer and a realist. Both of those push me to use standard parts whenever I can. No sense reinventing the wheel if you already have a huge stockpile of them next door.

And yes, you can count on me not to run off to Fiji or wherever with your preorder money. I am likely the least interesting person you will ever meet (unless of course, you too are a super nerd, then all bets are off :rofl: ).

[BigEvil]

Ryan,

You talk about not wanting to reinvent the wheel, but then you choose a electroneumatic frame over a regular Electo-frame.

I think that it would be far simpler to go the 9v/noid/cap/board route than trying to go through all the other bs with the lpr (as you mentioned), hoses, qev's and such.

BUT, I am curious to see what you have up your sleave. :ninja:

[CoolHand]

Well, I had a go at the big pancake 'noid style before, and IMO it is a clunky solution at best.

In this case, its not so much reinventing the wheel, as realizing that there is another shape out there that rolls better than a pentagon.

This would not need the ULT (yay for less tuning), no QEVs, and will use stock grips (one thing you simply cannot do when you use a pancake 'noid). Its all very tiny, and very simple. One moving part, and a very cheap and simple solenoid valve. Plus, your battery life will basically quadruple.

[warbeak2099]

Ok, I'm thinking we could keep the cost down if the eframe consisted of this:

Aluminum frame that accepts kingman esp electronics (noid, board, battery, switch) ~ $120

Then the user can buy a used esp frame for $50, take out the noid, on/off switch, battery, and battery harness, and add:

Tboard (comes with capacitor) = $55
T Switch = $11
Eyes = $6
Ramping or F/A Chip = $20

Total would come to around $260. I'd probably go get some rare earth magnets from radio shack and super glue them to the trigger and frame too. That'd be like an extra $2. So the only part that the manufactorer would have to make is the frame. That's where Ryan or whatever dealer wants to do it would come in. Obviously it'd be nice if the frame had eye channels, adjustable trigger, and maybe magnets already there too. I mean, even if the frame costed $150. That would still be only around $290. Think about it, an eframe with eyes, uncapped semi, ramping, and a 25g or 50g switch for under $300. And all Coolhand or whatever dealer does it has to do is manufactor an aluminum frame that accepts kingman esp internals. Preferably a vert or hybrid frame. Feasibility Coolhand? How much would it cost to make a batch of Ripper frames that have mounts for kingman electronics?

I will donate an esp frame I have lying around if you want. I shaved the noid pin down but still cant get my vm e-ripper project to work.

[CoolHand]

Ok, I'm thinking we could keep the cost down if the eframe consisted of this:

Aluminum frame that accepts kingman esp electronics (noid, board, battery, switch) ~ $120

Then the user can buy a used esp frame for $50, take out the noid, on/off switch, battery, and battery harness, and add:

Tboard (comes with capacitor) = $55
T Switch = $11
Eyes = $6
Ramping or F/A Chip = $20

Total would come to around $260. I'd probably go get some rare earth magnets from radio shack and super glue them to the trigger and frame too. That'd be like an extra $2. So the only part that the manufactorer would have to make is the frame. That's where Ryan or whatever dealer wants to do it would come in. Obviously it'd be nice if the frame had eye channels, adjustable trigger, and maybe magnets already there too. I mean, even if the frame costed $150. That would still be only around $290. Think about it, an eframe with eyes, uncapped semi, ramping, and a 25g or 50g switch for under $300. And all Coolhand or whatever dealer does it has to do is manufactor an aluminum frame that accepts kingman esp internals. Preferably a vert or hybrid frame. Feasibility Coolhand? How much would it cost to make a batch of Ripper frames that have mounts for kingman electronics?

I will donate an esp frame I have lying around if you want. I shaved the noid pin down but still cant get my vm e-ripper project to work.

I could likely sell just the frame for ~$150, or a frame and trigger for ~$175 or so, but I am more leery of folks seeing a marker with a Logic frame not working worth a damn, than anything else.

It may seem funny, but the way PB'er are, they see one go down, all products by that company suck by proxy. (And I have near zero confidence in Kingman's electronics.)

Plus, think about this ----> Why would you want to have ~$350 in a mediocre e-frame, when you could have one that was done right (high quality everything) for another $75 or so?

That's what prompted me to ditch the pancake 'noid in the first place. I was not impressed with CF's 'noid, Kingman's will be worse yet.

Its that whole "in for a penny, in for a pound" thing. When you are spending that much money on an upgrade, why not do it right the first time?

[warbeak2099]

The only kingman electronic being used would be the noid. It can't be that bad. As long as the thing opens and closes who cares? Everything else would be good quality. The sd tboard is not a cheap peice of crap. The dwell can be set up to 20-30ms too, so it'll work fine for a mag. The board will be high quality, the frame and trigger will be high quality, the noid will work which is all that matters, so what's the problem? It will be a cheaper e-noid frame than the dmag. And it wouldn't be low quality. The only iffy part would be the noid, and again, as long as it works then who cares what company makes it?

If you sold us the frame for $175, it would cost us another $142 to buy all the electronics, eyes, and an upgraded chip and switch. So, $317 for a frame that has ramping, uncapped semi, eyes, a friggin light microswitch, an adjustable trigger, etc. The bolt on dmag frame for $450 doesn't even include eyes.

[CoolHand]

Gotta add in for custom grips too. You can't use stock grips with the pancake 'noids.

You also gotta realize that I am not shooting for the $450 price tag. I'd say $400 would be the upper limit for the electopneumatic frame.

I would use a Predator board of one sort or another, which should come with eyes. Whether you install them or not is your call.

What I am saying is that I don't want to put out a half assed product just to save $50.

I need to get some quotes done, but if I could put out the electopneu frame for marginally more than the spyder conversion, would you guys buy it?

I would feel much better about the product, and I am sure it will prove out to be better for everyone.

[warbeak2099]

I'm sure others would jump on it. $400 for an epneu frame with eyes is pretty good. I guess I'm just being selfish lol. I'm a 17yo with a job as a cashier at a supermarket and paying my own auto insurance lol. If someone came out with a frame that accepts kingman internals for ~$175 I'd go nuts. It wouldn't be half-assed. It would be a clean, professional made frame with all the mounts, not some homemade job with jagged cuts and welds all over. Idkn, to me it would be perfect.

It'd perform great with a tboard, ramping chip, and 25g switch too.

[TheTramp]

I need to get some quotes done, but if I could put out the electopneu frame for marginally more than the spyder conversion, would you guys buy it?.

I love you to put out the frame (with all the mounting brackets) and a parts list for the rest of the internals. That was we could buy the frame from you then get the rest of the prts as money permits. I'd have a hard time buying a $400 e-frame but $150 for the frame then $ to get the rest of the parts would be very doable.

[warbeak2099]

Good point. I wouldn't be able to get the $400 all at once. But if I could buy and drop the parts in as money permitted, that'd be better. I'd also have no problem with the lpr coming out of the top of my logic gas thru. I think it'd look cool. I like how it looked in the electrician's e-mod.

[Magglerock]

$350-400? At that price range, I'm in - as long as there's a 45 degree option! Please!

[JoshK]

I know I love mags...and by the time you will be asking for money (hopfully later this year) I will have some money saved up to buy this (atleast the frame if not the whole thing).

But I know this would be much more affordable to more people if you make the parts list available.


-Josh

[CoolHand]

Most likely it will be in a hybrid angle frame.

Once I used one, I fell in love with the feel.

All the great points of the vert frame, but none of the drawbacks.

To everyone - Let me gather up some quotes and see about the cost. I can better guage the interest if I have real numbers to work with.

[warbeak2099]

Gonna consider selling the blank frame and giving us the option of buying the internals a bit at a time? It'd be awesome if it could be used as a mech frame in the meantime.

[JoshK]

Gonna consider selling the blank frame and giving us the option of buying the internals a bit at a time? It'd be awesome if it could be used as a mech frame in the meantime.

I agree with my whole body.

[NoForts4Me]

Gonna consider selling the blank frame and giving us the option of buying the internals a bit at a time? It'd be awesome if it could be used as a mech frame in the meantime.We can pretty much do this now *hint* Workshop *hint* if we want to put a little effort into it. No, there are not any frames made that are milled for certain parts, but you can buy whatever parts you want and stick in pretty much any frame you want.

Also, I can't see that selling a half finished product, and then saying "OK, here's a list of parts to finish it, and here are my sources so you can cut the middle man out and get them cheaper" would be very profitable. Even if he sold the parts and a schematic, he would spend all of his resources helping customers install the parts, and replacing parts the customers screwed up. Coolhand would probably still have to pay out royalties too, even selling the parts seperately.

[warbeak2099]

If there were mounts already in the frame he could just sell the individual parts to us to install ourselves. We've just need to bolt them on since there would already be mounts for them. He'd probably make more money by selling the parts to us seperately. In the meantime, if the frame could be used as a mech aka if it had a slot behind the trigger for the sear rod, it wouldn't be just a half-finished frame lying in our closet.
Basically, Ryan sells those of us who can't afford it all at once the bare frame and trigger. We use it as a mech and in the meantime buy the individual parts from him. The ram, the lpr, the microswitch, the board, the noid, etc. No skin off his nose. It's not like he'll have to be installing the parts for us. Example: I have the frame. First thing I'm going to get is the ram. Order the ram, ram get's to my house. Drop the ram into it's place in the frame and screw or bolt or whatever it on.

[CoolHand]

Well, there is something you all are missing, and try not to take offense to this. . . . . .

The great majority of the people who think they are smart enough to make something like this work . . . . . are not.

If it was just zippity-do-da easy, everyone and their dog would have already hacked up an ESP frame, and been done with it.

Bob at TAG found out the hard way that allowing the customer to install anything even remotely complex is just begging for trouble (which I don't need). Since I like to learn from other people's mistakes, I won't be repeating this one.

Nope, sorry to say this guys, but if I do this, its going to be an all or nothing deal.

There is no way that I am opening that can of worms. All I'd get done would be answering email and trouble shooting problems from guys who are "qualified" to DIY it. I may work out some kind of deal where you can pick and choose what parts you need to buy, but the major assembly will be done here. IF there is the choice to leave anything out, the part will be sold as is, with no support at all. Ask for it, and get ignored, if not outright ridiculed. Want support? Buy it whole.

That of course assumes that I decide to sell anything piecemeal at all (which I am not sure of just now).

I'm sorry, but that's just how its got to be.

As for the mech now, electro later thing, keep dreaming. The two are basically mutually exclusive, unless you are willing to modify a sear to work in mech mode (and even then I may not be able to make it work in both situations).

This is all so academic right now, you guys just need to set tight and let me get some quotes done, THEN, and only then can we discuss this with any measure of certainty.

[JoshK]

I see what you are saying coolhand. The only problem I would have with having to pay everything at once is the fact that you said there would be a limited supply (or am I wrong?) And that I wouldn't be able to get on because I wouldn't have the money at the time you were asking for it.

[warbeak2099]

If you can take apart and put your gun back together, I'd think you could handle dropping the components into the frame. I've worked on a couple e-pneu guns. It's not that hard to understand the workings. lpr goes to noid, noid goes to ram. You'd just need to buy the ram, board and noid, switch, and the battery harness and battery. Then you just drop em in the frame. I don't see why it would be hard to do that if there are already mounts for each part. It's not like we'd be fabricating anything. Just have to own and know how to use an allen wrench. If you don't know your way around an allen key then you shouldn't be allowed to play paintball in the first place, much less own a mag.

Sorry for being annoying Coolhand. I'm probably underestimating people's stupidity. I can't see someone being so stupid that they'd need to call you and ask how to drop the board in or connect the cocker hose to the barb on the ram. But then, there are people who surprise us all.

As for the mech thing. You'd just need to take the microswitch and ram out and put in a regular sear. And of course have a slot in the frame behind the trigger.

[JoshK]

If you can take apart and put your gun back together, I'd think you could handle dropping the components into the frame. I've worked on a couple e-pneu guns. It's not that hard to understand the workings. lpr goes to noid, noid goes to ram. You'd just need to buy the ram, board and noid, switch, and the battery harness and battery. Then you just drop em in the frame. I don't see why it would be hard to do that if there are already mounts for each part. It's not like we'd be fabricating anything. Just have to own and know how to use an allen wrench. If you don't know your way around an allen key then you shouldn't be allowed to play paintball in the first place, much less own a mag.

Sorry for being annoying Coolhand. I'm probably underestimating people's stupidity. I can't see someone being so stupid that they'd need to call you and ask how to drop the board in or connect the cocker hose to the barb on the ram. But then, there are people who surprise us all.

As for the mech thing. You'd just need to take the microswitch and ram out and put in a regular sear. And of course have a slot in the frame behind the trigger.

Not all people are..."mechanical oriented".

[MadPSIence]

if you made a bolt on frame.. complete with board and everything. I'd buy. So here's a Yes from me

[cdacda13]

I really like the idea of a pre-milled frame that will fit spyder internals.
I bet it would sell.

[RoadDawg]

I really like the idea of a pre-milled frame that will fit spyder internals.
I bet it would sell.

Well as much as I like the idea of cheap internals, I would not go the route of a spyder. Remember mags have strict tolerances, which means if something isn't on the mark, your mag will be an expensive paper weight. With that said... it would have to go above the quality I saw the last time I saw a mech logic frame. The user had to dink with it every game of play, now that may have been the end user but if it causes problems to someone I know it makes me doubt the products until proven otherwise. (not saying that all Logic's stuff doesn't work so go away flamers)

[warbeak2099]

This would have nothing to do with tolerances. The noid would just need to push back on the sear. Wouldn't disrupt any tolerances between the frame and rail or anything.

Anyhoo, it's a great idea. But I know Logic won't produce it. He's right, he doesn't want his name being associated with cheapy parts from Kingman. It would be cool if someone else would be willing to do it. But then, there is no mass producing mag dealer. That's what you need to make the thing cheap. Ah well, we have quality.

[BigEvil]

Bottom line is we get SOMETHING!!!

I still think a DIY frame is a great idea. Since the majority of the paintball playing public think that Mags are Shockers anyway.... I dont think there would be many name-recognition issues for associating crappy kingman parts to an aftermarket frame. You could always leave your name off of it anyhow. (I know, now im reaching :rolleyes: )

[warbeak2099]

Or produce two products. The higher end e-pneu frame for those who can afford it. And the lower end kingman esp internal frame for those who can't afford the $400. Sell the bare kingman accepting frame for $175 and it would cost us around $125 to outift it with electronics. Actually, without the fancy stuff like ramping chip and all, it would cost us like under $100 for the electronics. A base setup would come to around $275. For those who can't afford $400, that's a great deal.

[CoolHand]

Well as much as I like the idea of cheap internals, I would not go the route of a spyder. Remember mags have strict tolerances, which means if something isn't on the mark, your mag will be an expensive paper weight. With that said... it would have to go above the quality I saw the last time I saw a mech logic frame. The user had to dink with it every game of play, now that may have been the end user but if it causes problems to someone I know it makes me doubt the products until proven otherwise. (not saying that all Logic's stuff doesn't work so go away flamers)

Ah yes, the ever so subtle dig at our build quality, which of course emanates from a minion of "he who shall not be named".

No flame intended here, but you must realize by now that everyone sees what is going on when you guys start this crap.

Take it elsewhere.

Nothing goes out my shop doors that I would not use myself. If something ever sneaks by, the problem is fixed or they get their money back, plain and simple.

And that will be the last word on whether the frame will be "quality" or have good "tolerances" or not.

:mad:

[CoolHand]

I see what you are saying coolhand. The only problem I would have with having to pay everything at once is the fact that you said there would be a limited supply (or am I wrong?) And that I wouldn't be able to get on because I wouldn't have the money at the time you were asking for it.

We would do them in batches of 15 or 25.

When I get enough orders (say 10 in a batch of 15 or maybe 15 in a batch of 25), then I start the batch. If we get more orders than I have parts going, we will start on a new batch, and so on and so forth.

Limited production just means small numbers at a time, not this many and no more ever again. The tough part is shelling out ten G's to buy all the parts to build 50 or 75 of them at once, not continuing to make them.

As long as there is interest, we would continue to produce them.

[JoshK]

Ok that sounds good Logic...that was my only problem.

[BigEvil]

Hey, the reason I dont work for myself and am pretty much anti-entrepreneurial is because of the fear of having to deal with the public.

Do what is best, and what you can make the most money off of. Thats the bottom line.

[cdacda13]

A frame that could still use the stock seat and be mech, but was milled for the spyder mag mod, would sell like hot cakes.

[JoshK]

Logic...if you are asking for money in the next month or two I will have the cash for you. :D

[warbeak2099]

A frame that could still use the stock seat and be mech, but was milled for the spyder mag mod, would sell like hot cakes.

Yea but Ryan's right. He'd get so much crap from some people that it'd be more trouble for him than it's worth. Besides, an e-pneu frame would be different. The dmag is an e-noid tripper and this will trip the sear with a ram. Uniqueness. The market will be more interesting!

It would be uber for folks who can't afford the $400 e-pneuframe since it would only cost around $275-315. But, it's not what Ryan wants as the image for his company. I agree, if I were a smaller, custom dealer I wouldn't want to be associated with Kingman either. If I were some kind of mass manufactorer I wouldn't care.

[JoshK]

Coolhand...would it be possible for you to show us the cad with the internals out...or maybe a render of it with grips? That would be really cool of you...the only thing that would stop me from buying this is the looks.

[Maggot6]

Not that I don't have the money, it is just the fact that I don't "need" to buy this. So, maybe once the 2nd and 3rd batches (if that many :ninja: ) are made and sold I'll get one. So I polled as "yeah, I'd buy it"

[MadPSIence]

though there may be a demand here from people who want a frame they can just throw spyder crap in.. i doubt that would be the best way to go. a complete frame will probably bring more buyers to the plate. not everyone wants to mess around with that stuff.. and if they do.. well let them tinker with the complete frame then if it's not good enough.

in my opinion.. people can build a spyder mag if they want.

coolhand, if you do make a complete frame you can count me in for at least 1. 2 if I like it enough. i think it'd be great if it accepted 45 grips if you have such a version, and maybe IR3 style grips if you go towards 90 degrees.

[CoolHand]

Verts are played out (IMO), so you can count on this one to be a hybrid angle which still takes some sort of standard grips.

.45's have those screws in the center, which is right where I need to put the battery, so I'm leaning more toward DM5 grips ATM.

That means basically only DYE grips, but they make some of the best grips out there anyway, so its all good.

They leave a huge center area open, which is just what I need. Kinda look cool too . . . . .

Now to get the shape worked out so I can give you all a teaser. :ninja:

[JoshK]

Now to get the shape worked out so I can give you all a teaser. :ninja:

YES! Teaser! Those are the words I was looking to hear from you.

Wow...with me saving up for a car and stuff it will only take me like 6 weeks to save up for this. (this is if it is $400)

EDIT: Or I could buy an IR3 for a little less... :( I just realized that this wouldn't be a practical use of my money...now I'm sad)

[Spartan X]

You better not make one or I'm going to have to buy a Mag!!

I can't see how it would infringe on PTP's patent since your using electronics and there using completely mech parts....


ya I'd prolly buy one since the gun whore inside me would screem if I did not.

[VFX_Fenix]

If I'm stuborn enough to buy a set of E-Mag lowers JUST so I can get an E-Mag I suppose I'd be interested in getting rid of the E-Mag bits in favor of going back to my stock rail and forgrip since... well... I like the battery pack and all.... but it just isn't quite as nice as having a 9V that I can swap out if I forget to charge my battery pack for one reason or another, ya know?

That and I'd probably end up buying a whole new Mag... or at least selling the E-Mag lowes to pay for this new frame.

Personally I'd think it'd be cool, I'm not all that big on hybrid frames since I'd still like to run a .45 but if I get a chance to try one out who knows.

[Chris_automag_07]

all i have to say is this, i play with an rt mag and i would buy this in a heartbeat, and for all of you that say he should sell it with mounting brackets and such, surely you already have a frame on your mag, why not just play with it untill you save enough money to buy the whole thing.....keyword "save", it would save you and coolhand a lot of trouble.
just my oppinion
and again to coolhand, i would most def. buy one.

[CoolHand]

Do not read further if you don't want to see what this is most likely gonna look like!

v
v
vvvvv
vvvv
vvv
vv
v

v
v
v
v
v
vvvvv
vvvv
vvv
vv
v

v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
vvvvv
vvvv
vvv
vv
v

v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
vvvvv
vvvv
vvv
vv
v


http://www.logicpaintball.com/UberMagFrameTeaser.jpg

That is all. :headbang:

[VFX_Fenix]

Cool, first one to jump on the reply

Looks good, still curious as to why the snatch, but w/e

[Chris_automag_07]

im in.........cant wait, dont let us down( dont think you will, but i dont want it to end with a teaser)

[CoolHand]

. . . . still curious as to why the snatch, but w/e

I just liked the look.

The thickness up top sorta needs to be there, but it looked funny in the back to just stop it square.

[RoadDawg]

Ah yes, the ever so subtle dig at our build quality, which of course emanates from a minion of "he who shall not be named".

No flame intended here, but you must realize by now that everyone sees what is going on when you guys start this crap.

Take it elsewhere.

Nothing goes out my shop doors that I would not use myself. If something ever sneaks by, the problem is fixed or they get their money back, plain and simple.

And that will be the last word on whether the frame will be "quality" or have good "tolerances" or not.

:mad:

You know Ryan I don't know what the heck your thinking. I'm trying to give you my input... yet you shut the door on me as if it didn't matter. I give EVERYONE a fair chance and no respect is given until it is earned. I've given you several chances. So far I haven't been impressed with you, or some of your products. Whenever I lend my advice (I give RF plenty of advice as well) you go calling me a minion. Plain and simple if Rogue wanted me to "attack" you or make you look stupid he would do it himself. I need not do this as I have no reason to do so.

My comments about your first 90* frame were valid. It needed a safety plain and simple. If I was to ever buy it and use it at a field nearby it would need one. simply degassing doesn't work. Also if it was to void my warranty or have the possibility of messing up parts of my investment... you better believe I'll have an issue about it. I don't turn a blind eye to the cost of items that I'll have to replace in the future. So yes... Quality & tolerances matter.

As for quality let me point out certain items and circumstances so people can identify with the problems.

Fireblade trigger- Had machine marks all over both sides on a gloss black trigger (Bulldog's). I want a clean look, wasn't impressed.

90* Frame- Owner had to constantly fiddle with his marker because of a frame issue that we never figured out. (threw on a Intelli and it worked flawless *friend not on the board*)

I haven't seen or dealt with your rails so I have no comment on them, but if it voids a warranty or can lead to wearing down of parts... I have an issue with it. It's the thought of knowing that the part your buying won't cause premature wear on items.

You can blame this on your competition all you like but the fact we live in a very large area of SoCal, doesn't mean I'm buddy buddy with him. I know him, yes, but on a business relationship. I've bought items from him because I've never had a shady deal from him. He has EARNED my respect, unlike you. You like to call me a minion but fail to realize that it's your own mistakes that have made me this way. I try to help you but you act tough. Then change it later and call it your own thought (v 1.0 to v 1.1). It's rediculous. Anyways... I'll let this die as this is your thread.

[CoolHand]

Dude, I don't want your respect. I don't need your respect. If I never, ever, get any respect from you, I can still live a full life, and die a happy man. You don't matter to me.

You are one random guy on the internet, who has, BTW, been nothing but an irritation. You don't suggest things, you just *****, and run down my stuff. You have an idea in your head, and nothing is going to change your mind. No matter what I do, it will never be good enough for you, and honestly, I don't care.

If everything I did was as crappy as you portray, do you not think that people (many hundreds by this time) would have noticed and started to talk about it?

So far, the only people who ever consistently say bad things live in a small part of the US, and worship the ground that a certain whoever walks on. That is just a fuzz too much coincidence for me.

Also, tell your friend to look me up (if he still has his frame). I have never heard from him (that I can recall anyway). I can only fix problems that I am actually told about (you know, by people who are actually looking for a solution).

This may look sudden to anyone not familiar with this bunch of doodie heads ( :rofl: ), but I am sick to death of the nit picking. I'm just taking the "nip it in the bud" stance this time.

EDIT: After having cooled off a bit, I feel I need to clarify something here. Namely the fact that this is not the reaction that anyone who offers criticism will get. I reserve this kind of wrath for those who make it their stock in life to follow my developments, and offer bogus "advice" as a guise for slinging mud. There are only about a half a dozen such people in the world, and nearly all of them frequent AO. You six or eight know who you are, and so does most of the rest of AO. The rest of you guys feel free to offer up whatever you like, good or bad. You six or eight, bugger off.

[RoadDawg]

Dude, I don't want your respect. I don't need your respect. If I never, ever, get any respect from you, I can still live a full life, and die a happy man. You don't matter to me.

You are one random guy on the internet, who has, BTW, been nothing but an irritation. You don't suggest things, you just *****, and run down my stuff. You have an idea in your head, and nothing is going to change your mind. No matter what I do, it will never be good enough for you, and honestly, I don't care.

If everything I did was as crappy as you portray, do you not think that people (many hundreds by this time) would have noticed and started to talk about it?

So far, the only people who ever consistently say bad things live in a small part of the US, and worship the ground that a certain whoever walks on. That is just a fuzz too much coincidence for me.

Also, tell your friend to look me up (if he still has his frame). I have never heard from him (that I can recall anyway). I can only fix problems that I am actually told about (you know, by people who are actually looking for a solution).

This may look sudden to anyone not familiar with this bunch of doodie heads ( :rofl: ), but I am sick to death of the nit picking. I'm just taking the "nip it in the bud" stance this time.

Did I ever say that ALL your items are crap? NO. I haven't been impressed by what I've seen in person. BTW I think Eatem Alive in NorCal had problems with his mag (coinsedently had your frame on it :spit_take ) Overall I have no respect for you because of your attitude. You can't and won't accept the criticism or the help. Even when I'm honestly trying to help you out by opening other options. You play it off and call me names. Then make those changes later anyways (90* v 1.0 to 90* v 1.1), when it could have saved you the hassle (and money)in the first place. Which is fine with me because in the end, it tells me and other potential customers more and more about your business practices.

[Chris_automag_07]

can we get back to the thread guys, you can make your own little thread to b**** at coolhand if you want...he shouldnt have to defend himself, your just changing the direction of this thread

[SpecialBlend2786]

So far, the only people who ever consistently say bad things live in a small part of the US, and worship the ground that a certain whoever walks on. That is just a fuzz too much coincidence for me.


I would just like to clarify......

Derek and I live in the same part of the US.

And we both love ya man :ninja:

[Spartan X]

OK the opinions and data has been presented, RoadDawg you need no longer coment on it, take it to a PM if you wish to continue. If you do, you will be reported to a Mod for Trolling.

Ev en people who make a few things custom can make a little opps every once in a while, the cool thing is that they are willing to worth with you imediatly to get it fixed!



I think it looks great man!

[warbeak2099]

Does look great! I love the Trix grips.

[BigEvil]

Anything I have ever purchased from Coolhand has been flawless. Ryan has many times went well out of his way to answer questions from me, probably at his own detrament. ..And always ending it with "If you need anything else, please let me know sir."

I dont know what anyone's issues are, but it is classless to rant on about them in public. There is a PM system on AO, use it.

Anyway... the frame looks good on cad. Im picturing it looking for real much like the shocker frame you make.

[Muzikman]

hmm...damn, that's just an outline of the frame. I am interested in what fills that frame:)

[warbeak2099]

I don't think he'd want to give away the internal workings. Just like Jay isn't revealing the inside of the Pneuframe.

[Muzikman]

It was just a joke, trust me, I understand.

[warbeak2099]

Oh, hehe. You have av ery confusing sense of humor :p

[UTDragun]

I guess there wont be an "upgrade your logic frame" deal? haha that would be sweet for my wallet tho....

id shell 400 for it
err.... i mean my sponsor will

[CoolHand]

Yeah, I don't want to leak the internals just yet, though they are pretty simple. Its not exactly what people are thinking though either, it is a ram and a solenoid, but the specific embodiement is brand new (something of my own design which lets be cram a lot of force into a tiny little place).

OK, NOW I need to get some quotes done, and see what its really going to cost to build them.

Hang in there guys, this could take a couple of weeks (especially for the electronics).

[MadPSIence]

would also like to add.. PLEASE make this so we don't have to use a ULT!

[warbeak2099]

Shouldn't have to if it's ram operated. Hey, with eyes we won't need lvl 10 either. Sweet! Nothing to adjust or tune ever again! Well, except for dwell and debounce and stuff, but that's easy and you don't really have to do them more than once.

[CoolHand]

would also like to add.. PLEASE make this so we don't have to use a ULT!

Oh yes, that is a certainty. I want to get back to the old reliable Mag. Most of that tuning stuff can go by the wayside.

The little actuator will be capable of up to 19.5 lbs of force, which is more than enough to trip any of the stock On/Offs (Classics, RTP, etc).

[warbeak2099]

Will the frame come with a pair of bb eyes? Obviously we'd have to have the holes drilled but my local shop will do both sides for $20 woot. It'd be cool if a pair was included just in case we wanted to ditch the lvl 10.

[TheTramp]

my local shop will do both sides for $20 woot.

I wish I had a shop like that.

[CoolHand]

Will the frame come with a pair of bb eyes? Obviously we'd have to have the holes drilled but my local shop will do both sides for $20 woot. It'd be cool if a pair was included just in case we wanted to ditch the lvl 10.

Yeah, I imagine that the components will come with the frame. It will still be up to you to assemble the eye harness and get the machine work done.

If I can come up with some sort of really elegant solution for the eye covers, I will make them available. But don't hold your breath just yet.

Eye components aren't too much money though, so you can pretty much count on them being included.

[spyderkiller]

I just get confused....noid this ram that. I just want something electro and sweet....I like the idea of eyes, and I like the idea of going back to the roots so there's nothing mechanical that needs to be adjusted. Bottom line, count me in as soon as you come up with something. For preorders, are you pretty much going to produce as many as there are people who want them? I'd get bummed if you said first 50 to preorder get one, the rest have to wait, cuz then i'd be like 51st for sure...that's just how it goes for me.

[warbeak2099]

Assemble the eye harness? The eyes don't just plug into the board? Forigve me, but that is one of the things about working with electronics that I don't know. Are the eyes soldered to conection points on the board? Would we have to purchase a wiring harness seperate?

[MadPSIence]

no matter how this thing functions I think a lot of people.. myself included.. will still want to use the level 10. frankly I'd feel awkward getting a karta body or something drilled for eyes. as nice as it is I would put my faith in the level 10 once again to NOT chop.

also.. I was just wondering.. when you release the frame maybe have a couple triggers to go with it.. perhaps a standard double trigger, blade style and maybe something cool like the viperblade or whatnot.

[RoadDawg]

OK the opinions and data has been presented, RoadDawg you need no longer coment on it, take it to a PM if you wish to continue. If you do, you will be reported to a Mod for Trolling.

Ev en people who make a few things custom can make a little opps every once in a while, the cool thing is that they are willing to worth with you imediatly to get it fixed!



I think it looks great man!

Maybe if I was trolling I could see being reported. Only thing I'm guilty of is asking questions I want to know the answers to. Like my first post said. All I want to know is it going to be to the tolerances and specs that mag's require, without wearing parts out prematurely. It isn't a shot at his quality (although I did say if it isn't it has the "potential" of being a expensive paper weight). Now where did I go wrong? I asked a simple question and he read into WAY to far... thinking that his competition sent me to ask, which isn't true, and it is something I think is very relevant. Now I know we haven't always gotten along, but when I ask a simple question I would like a honest answer (not a slap in the face and attack). The supposed "attack" on my part was a problem that could have been the end user's error. I didn't dink with it so I can't totally say, except for the trigger, that just was poor QC. Machine marks can easily be removed before annodizing. Was it a fluke... maybe but so far he's at least 0-3 in my experience with his products. It is areas I could see improvement on but he won't accept my input. Which is fine... it's his business and he can run it how he likes. And this is how I will leave this thread. With the same question I asked in the first post before getting blamed for something I wasn't doing.

Is it going to fit the tolerances and specs that mags require?

The 2nd post of mine was me defending the unnecessary attack by Ryan.

[CoolHand]

Is it going to fit the tolerances and specs that mags require?


Yup.

:tard:

[MadPSIence]

Dawg.. the porch is back there.

Coolhand - I presume it will be a bolt on frame for all RT style rails ?

[UTDragun]

is a scm3 a lpr? that would be cool to shove in it

[cdacda13]

Im going to start saving my money now.

Is it going to be a bolt on frame?(I dont see the need for eyes)

[MadPSIence]

just in case anyone plans on using eyes, i recommend a level 7 bolt kit

[warbeak2099]

Bingo. That's exactly what I would do.

And RoadDawg, whenever Coolhand or anyone else tries to defend themselves against that stupid tolerance bull, R----'s lackies always say, "you're reading too much into it!". Give it up. Don't pull that crap and then deny it. At least be man enough to admit you're being a jerk when it's very pbvious to everyone that you are.

Anyhoo, I like the multiple trigger idea too. Creating several different trigger styles would be nice.

[Lurker27]

Make the frame accept spyder internals or a similar noid with crimped connectors. Dragun board is probably a better idea since the connectors are readily available, IMO.

From Damon in a bulk order I bet you can get the board price down to $40. For the eyes and switches, and crimped connectors, an additional $10. The spyder noid is on solenoid city for about that, as well. its 1 ohm coil, .6 inches long, 1 inch wide.

Pred is overkill IMO. T-board has a ramping chip.

[MadPSIence]

Make the frame accept spyder internals or a similar noid with crimped connectors. Dragun board is probably a better idea since the connectors are readily available, IMO.

From Damon in a bulk order I bet you can get the board price down to $40. For the eyes and switches, and crimped connectors, an additional $10. The spyder noid is on solenoid city for about that, as well. its 1 ohm coil, .6 inches long, 1 inch wide.

Pred is overkill IMO. T-board has a ramping chip.

how about no. not everyone wants to have to piece their board together from spyder parts and what not.

if you wanna do that garbage go do the spydermag mod. frankly I'd like to see something innovative done for once in a complete package.

[warbeak2099]

No he meant Coolhand could get the tboards and electronics in bulk for cheap. All together, it would cost him maybe $75 for the electronics on each frame and he could offer a complete frame with electronics and board for around $300. Probably less.

[UTDragun]

is a scm3 a lpr? that would be cool to shove in it :ninja:

[rkjunior303]

is a scm3 a lpr? that would be cool to shove in it

a SCM3 is too big, not to mention they've been having serious creeping issues.

[Automaggot68]

I would just like to clarify......

Derek and I live in the same part of the US.

And we both love ya man :ninja:

NOTHING but Love for Ryan and his Products.

I've never had a problem with Ryan or his products. Ever.
I've bought Several Logic v1.1 Frames from him, both at great prices, and both in great working condition.

When I purchased my FIRST frame from him, he asked me later that if I wanted, he could have it anno with the same fade that my dallara body/rail has at no additional charge, and still take the same amount of time for turn around. Thats Excellent right there.

When I told him that I was jealous of another user who had a Logic Jewel for his frame, (The frame I had didn't have one, they weren't made yet) He sent me one, as well with a few other goodies.

When he caught news tht I was excited about his new Mech Frame, he PMed me, and talked to me about a trade in on the Frame I already have.


Ryan has bounced ideas off me, and he's allowed me to bounce even more off him. He's talked to me as an equal, and has never talked down to me like others have.

If there was one person on AO That I'd invest money into regarding an E-frame for a mag, it'd be Ryan Shanks. I can speak for two other members as well, Magmanl337, and Specblend.

[Automaggot68]

Bingo. That's exactly what I would do.

And RoadDawg, whenever Coolhand or anyone else tries to defend themselves against that stupid tolerance bull, R----'s lackies always say, "you're reading too much into it!". Give it up. Don't pull that crap and then deny it. At least be man enough to admit you're being a jerk when it's very pbvious to everyone that you are.

Anyhoo, I like the multiple trigger idea too. Creating several different trigger styles would be nice.



Wrong.
You are the last person who needs to defend Logic Paintball.
The last thing we need in this thread are people naming names, and stoking the fire.

[MadPSIence]

luke if you would allow me I'd like to call dibs on # 001 for this product.

[CoolHand]

luke if you would allow me I'd like to call dibs on # 001 for this product.

My name's Ryan. :p

And #1 always belongs to me.

#2 on the other hand . . . . . . . . .

:ninja:

[Automaggot68]

My name's Ryan. :p

And #1 always belongs to me.

#2 on the other hand . . . . . . . . .

:ninja:



Everyone know's Im getting #2, Ryan
Dont ever forget that.




/creepy stare

[CoolHand]

Everyone know's Im getting #2, Ryan
Dont ever forget that.




/creepy stare


Alright, this can only be settled one way.

The CAGE!

/me points to the cage.

Two pb nerds enter, one pb nerd leaves.

(then later the other one leaves too)

The winner gets #2, the loser . . . . . . . . gets #3 I guess.

:cheers:

[Automaggot68]

Alright, this can only be settled one way.

The CAGE!

/me points to the cage.

Two pb nerds enter, one pb nerd leaves.

(then later the other one leaves too)

The winner gets #2, the loser . . . . . . . . gets #3 I guess.

:cheers:

YOU'RE GOIN' DOWN.


/tina turner
//thunder dome
///seriously, I need #2 for my #2 Dallara.
////creepy over shoulder stare

[spyderkiller]

Ok, so is there any new news? Coolhand, were you going to work up some costs and get a price for it? Is it definitely going to be made, and if so, when? I leave in a week for airborne school, and i'd like to know if I'll have a nice new toy to buy sometime soon after getting back.

[SpecialBlend2786]

YOU'RE GOIN' DOWN.


/tina turner
//thunder dome
///seriously, I need #2 for my #2 Dallara.
////creepy over shoulder stare

If i may quote you again.


/macho man randy savage LOW FAT YOGUUUUURT !

oh man ryan, just give it to him :eek:

[bleachit]

Alright, this can only be settled one way.

The CAGE!

/me points to the cage.

Two pb nerds enter, one pb nerd leaves.

(then later the other one leaves too)

The winner gets #2, the loser . . . . . . . . gets #3 I guess.

:cheers:


or you could just make 2 #2's... no one would ever know.

or...

#2 and #2'

but then there is a fight over which one gets #2'

[CoolHand]

Ok, so is there any new news? Coolhand, were you going to work up some costs and get a price for it? Is it definitely going to be made, and if so, when? I leave in a week for airborne school, and i'd like to know if I'll have a nice new toy to buy sometime soon after getting back.

I am working on the price thing now, but its not something that just happens in 15 minutes.

Also, you have to realize that this isn't the only thing I am working on right now.

The thing with the gonna-do-it/not gonna-do-it comes down to cost. If I can build them and sell them with enough markup to be worth my time, and still come at or under $400, then they will go.

If not, I will see what options I can change to get the cost down.

If I can't find anything, it will die, or the price will go up.

But none of that can happen until I get the first quote done.

Give me until the end of next week. I may know more by then. No guarantees, but I will do my best.

[CoolHand]

or you could just make 2 #2's... no one would ever know.

or...

#2 and #2'

but then there is a fight over which one gets #2'

OR

I just won't put numbers on them at all, and I'll tell everyone that they can have whatever number they want.

:clap:

Damnit. I said that out loud, didn't I?

Inside voice. Inside voice. Inside voice.

;)

[spyderkiller]

I understand it takes time. Sorry if I sounded impatient, because I didn't mean to. I'll calm down about the whole thing, once i find a brown paper bag to breathe into...

[CoolHand]

. . . . . .I'll calm down about the whole thing, once i find a brown paper bag to breathe into...

lmao

I know the feeling dude. When you are doing this sort of thing, and everyone wants it right now, you get the feeling you are running in waist deep mud.

You're working your *** off, but you're just not getting anywhere. Ya know?

At any rate, I'm pretty happy with the design, so its off for some quotes now.

I should have some kind of a number for you all next week sometime.

[Automaggot68]

lmao

I know the feeling dude. When you are doing this sort of thing, and everyone wants it right now, you get the feeling you are running in waist deep mud.

You're working your *** off, but you're just not getting anywhere. Ya know?

At any rate, I'm pretty happy with the design, so its off for some quotes now.

I should have some kind of a number for you all next week sometime.

I want one.
Now.


/willy wonka

[warbeak2099]

You're right maggot. I'm sorry, I just get angry easily when people act like jerks towards people who don't deserve it. I'm Italian... errr Sicilian, it's hard for me to control my temper lol.

But seriously, this is a great idea. I mean, cocker owners have the eblade and now we would have this. It's exactly what any mech gun needs to be able to compete, a reasonably priced, high quality, fast e-frame. Plus ours will be a hybrid, not a standard 45*. Woot.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I'm Italian... errr Sicilian, it's hard for me to control my temper lol.


lol :rofl:

[Automaggot68]

You're right maggot. I'm sorry, I just get angry easily when people act like jerks towards people who don't deserve it. I'm Italian... errr Sicilian, it's hard for me to control my temper lol.

But seriously, this is a great idea. I mean, cocker owners have the eblade and now we would have this. It's exactly what any mech gun needs to be able to compete, a reasonably priced, high quality, fast e-frame. Plus ours will be a hybrid, not a standard 45*. Woot.


Its cool guy. :cheers:

[CoolHand]

I'm Italian... errr Sicilian, it's hard for me to control my temper lol.

/lapses into Al Pacino mode.

You laughing at me?

/looks around

There's nobody else here, so you must be laughing at me.

Do I amuse you?

Am I here simply to make you laugh? Is that my function in life!?!

Huh!?! Am I your personal court jester!?!

/picks up baseball bat.

/whacks warbeak repeatedly.

Who's laughing now, eh!?! EH!?!

/shakes head

What happened, I blacked out for a second there.

/looks down at bloody hands and bat.

Oh, damn. Not again.

[MadPSIence]

rather than number them.. maybe you could have the first 10 engraved with the names or whatnot of the buyers...

I bet you'd sell 10 really fast. If you like the idea count me in.

[SpecialBlend2786]

rather than number them.. maybe you could have the first 10 engraved with the names or whatnot of the buyers...

I bet you'd sell 10 really fast. If you like the idea count me in.

yeah that'd be awesome. Name and serial number and i'd deffinitly pick up one of the first 10 if i could...

[CoolHand]

Of course that is possible, but you can count on it adding at least $50 to the cost.

That adds a CAD file, a GCode file, a set-up, and machine time on the CNC. If I charged by the hour, it would cost $150 . . . . . . .

Its never as easy as it sounds. :(

[SpecialBlend2786]

Of course that is possible, but you can count on it adding at least $50 to the cost.

That adds a CAD file, a GCode file, a set-up, and machine time on the CNC. If I charged by the hour, it would cost $150 . . . . . . .

Its never as easy as it sounds. :(

i guess we can always get them lazer engraved ourselves lol.

[CoolHand]

i guess we can always get them lazer engraved ourselves lol.

Now that is a cheaper solution.

Let me talk with Jay and see if he still has access to a laser engraver.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Now that is a cheaper solution.

Let me talk with Jay and see if he still has access to a laser engraver.

:D :clap: :bounce: :hail: :dance:

[spyderkiller]

Ok, I'm really sorry if I'm being repetetive and sounding impatient again...but, so you say you'll have a quote next week hopefully. I won't be home from airborne school for another two and a half weeks after that, which means I'll be completely out of the loop until then...is there even a prayer that they'll be available when I get back? Or is it all dependent on how many people want them after you tell us the price? I just hope I don't get left out somehow, it always seems to happen to me :cry:

[TheTramp]

I wouldn't expect anything to be in your hands for several months.

[hAppy]

No, because he's not a very productive worker. He probably would lag as much as the Devil guy.

[Lohman446]

To those who would complain about teh speed / price of mag parts... make them. The fact of the matter is it takes some expertise, and some equipment to do so. If its so easy taht you can complain about how they are made, make your own, or go in business doing it if your so much better than those doing it.

If you are someone who has no clue to the process of specialty machine shops, small business specializing in custom work in general, or if you don't even have a job... perhaps you should not complain to those that do. There's a reason I don't do anything for the paintball market, and reading posts and threads such as these reminds me of those reasons.

[TheTramp]

No, because he's not a very productive worker. He probably would lag as much as the Devil guy.


I'm in no way saying that.

It will take a couple of months at least to design, mfg., and ship these frames. The guy above is talking about a few weeks from now.

[spyderkiller]

Yeah, I'm not saying I know anything at all about machine shops or manufacturing paintball products from scratch, especially high tech ones...so all I was doing was inquiring, because Coolhand said he already likes his design so I didn't know how much more tinkering he had to do with it before he could start making them, once he knows there's a demand for the product. A few months is very reasonable IMO, I was just checking to see if by any chance a miracle could happen.

[CoolHand]

No, because he's not a very productive worker. He probably would lag as much as the Devil guy.

Dude, you can take the same hike as your bud, RoadDawg. I've had to deal with your crap on so many occassions. You spammed my feedback thread, and inevitably crap in every product thread I ever make. Have I ever even done business with you?

If so, I am sorry for whatever I did to make you angry. If not, I am getting very tired of seeing your posts. Either way, our business is finished, kindly piss off.

[CoolHand]

Yeah, I'm not saying I know anything at all about machine shops or manufacturing paintball products from scratch, especially high tech ones...so all I was doing was inquiring, because Coolhand said he already likes his design so I didn't know how much more tinkering he had to do with it before he could start making them, once he knows there's a demand for the product. A few months is very reasonable IMO, I was just checking to see if by any chance a miracle could happen.

Its going to be at least six to eight weeks to have finished products, likely longer if everythinhg doesn't go just right.

Everyone has to realize that this is going to be a long term deal. If you cannot wait for three months for your parts, do not sign up. I've said it here, and I will post it again on the site for the preorders.

I want everyone to know two things:

1) This is going to take a while. Probably longer than any of us think right now.
2) There will be no refunds for the preorders. This is going to be a high dollar project, one which I cannot float out of pocket for the time that this is going to take. You have to know this going in. Your money will be gone into the parts right after you place the order, so it cannot come back easily. For that reason, there will be no refunds on the preorder.

You all know these things going in, so I don't want to see any of the crap that GADevil is getting now. OK? Are we jiving here?

[Lohman446]

Its going to be at least six to eight weeks to have finished products, likely longer if everythinhg doesn't go just right.

Everyone has to realize that this is going to be a long term deal. If you cannot wait for three months for your parts, do not sign up. I've said it here, and I will post it again on the site for the preorders.

I want everyone to know two things:

1) This is going to take a while. Probably longer than any of us think right now.
2) There will be no refunds for the preorders. This is going to be a high dollar project, one which I cannot float out of pocket for the time that this is going to take. You have to know this going in. Your money will be gone into the parts right after you place the order, so it cannot come back easily. For that reason, there will be no refunds on the preorder.

You all know these things going in, so I don't want to see any of the crap that GADevil is getting now. OK? Are we jiving here?

Get it in writing...

[warbeak2099]

3 months isn't bad. Aren't the Devilmags taking even longer?

That doesn't satisfy the requirements of this being an eblade for the mag. Eblades aren't custom built, special order kind of things. Maybe if these sell well, Ryan can sell the design to a major company who will be able to crank out a lot at once. He gets a nice bunch of cash for his design and gets to sit back while the other dude does all the work. And mags rise again since they'd have a mainstream, cheaper, readily available e-frame comparible to the eblade.

[spyderkiller]

Dude, you can take the same hike as your bud, RoadDawg. I've had to deal with your crap on so many occassions. You spammed my feedback thread, and inevitably crap in every product thread I ever make. Have I ever even done business with you?

If so, I am sorry for whatever I did to make you angry. If not, I am getting very tired of seeing your posts. Either way, our business is finished, kindly piss off.


Yeah, you're not being a very good eagle scout...

[spyderkiller]

Its going to be at least six to eight weeks to have finished products, likely longer if everythinhg doesn't go just right.

Everyone has to realize that this is going to be a long term deal. If you cannot wait for three months for your parts, do not sign up. I've said it here, and I will post it again on the site for the preorders.

I want everyone to know two things:

1) This is going to take a while. Probably longer than any of us think right now.
2) There will be no refunds for the preorders. This is going to be a high dollar project, one which I cannot float out of pocket for the time that this is going to take. You have to know this going in. Your money will be gone into the parts right after you place the order, so it cannot come back easily. For that reason, there will be no refunds on the preorder.

You all know these things going in, so I don't want to see any of the crap that GADevil is getting now. OK? Are we jiving here?


Oh, definitely jiving alright.

[CoolHand]

Oh, definitely jiving alright.


Alrigty then.

The preorder will start as soon as I get the quotes done.

I'm thinking a batch of 25 to start with.

Also, Jay said he can still do the laser engraving, so the first ten guys can have their name and # put on their frames if they want.

Let me get a price put together, and we'll get this party started.

[CoolHand]

Get it in writing...

Oh yes. All that will be on the preorder page. You will have to agree to the terms to order one.

No fine print. Its all going to be in bold, before the description of the frame.

No :ninja: business here.

[rkjunior303]

AFTICA sure would look dope sporting brand new Logic E-Framed Mag's at the IAO Owner's group.... ;) ha

[spyderkiller]

So once the preorder starts, and you get 25 preorders, you make the run of them? After that do you need another 25 orders to make more, or is it individual after that? Because if these things go like I think they will, I'll probably miss getting in the first 25 while i'm in Georgia jumping out of planes... :cry: and I so wanted to be in the first 10 to have some engraving done too :cry:

P.S.
Coolhand gets the offial fastest reply to threads award

[CoolHand]

So once the preorder starts, and you get 25 preorders, you make the run of them? After that do you need another 25 orders to make more, or is it individual after that? Because if these things go like I think they will, I'll probably miss getting in the first 25 while i'm in Georgia jumping out of planes... :cry: and I so wanted to be in the first 10 to have some engraving done too :cry:

P.S.
Coolhand gets the offial fastest reply to threads award

I will start the batch after I get 15 preorders. So, lets say the first 15 get the engraving.

If the first 25 sell out, then I will start another batch. If we break 50, then I will do a final preorder to see how many more I need to do (as I'm having some of the smaller parts turned in batches of 50).

When are you due back from training?

If you give me a date, I will hold one of the 10 extra spots (after the first 15) for you until a week after that date, so you can get it ordered in the first batch.

That's about all I can do for you.

[spyderkiller]

You are a god among men... :hail:

I get back on the 29th of July (as long as I make it safely to the ground every time).
I'd much appreciate it if you saved me one of those last 10 slots...although, this could be tricky because I still don't know how much money I'm going to need, and I'll have lots of bills when I get back. For you being a nice guy's sake, i'd have you save me a slot...but for your profit and business sake, i'm going to tell you not to save me a slot. That way if I come up short financially you don't get screwed, and there could still be an open slot when i get back anyway....so for your sake, don't worry about me.

[MadPSIence]

Luke, get some specs out before you start taking pre-orders. I don't want to pre-order and then receive something i hate (in case it doesn't turn out as i hope..who knows)

but count me in on that first 15 batch I will pay before anyone if you like just contact me

[CoolHand]

Luke, get some specs out before you start taking pre-orders. I don't want to pre-order and then receive something i hate (in case it doesn't turn out as i hope..who knows)

but count me in on that first 15 batch I will pay before anyone if you like just contact me

What do you take me for? A :tard: ?

:rofl: When I get the price firmed up, I will post final specs, a decent mockup, and the price. Likely in the dealer's forum.

Like I said, I have to get the prices firmed up before I can say much else.

Hang in there guys, I know its killing you, but you have to tough out another week or so.

[CoolHand]

Luke, . . . . .

And my name is Ryan, not Luke.

CoolHand refers to Jake Grafton's call sign from the Flight of the Intruder novels by Stephen Coonts, not that cowboy dude (CoolHand Luke).

I'd rather be an A-6 driver over a cowboy any day. ;)

:cheers:

[SpecialBlend2786]

What we've got here is failure to communicate......

[MadPSIence]

What do you take me for? A :tard: ?

:rofl: When I get the price firmed up, I will post final specs, a decent mockup, and the price. Likely in the dealer's forum.

Like I said, I have to get the prices firmed up before I can say much else.

Hang in there guys, I know its killing you, but you have to tough out another week or so.

well then it sounds good! sorry for the name confusion btw.. i just figured coolhand would mean your name was luke because of flight of the intruder. my bad!

[CoolHand]

What we've got here is failure to communicate......

Uh . . . . . . .

Apparently, 'cause I don't understand.

[CoolHand]

......i just figured coolhand would mean your name was luke because of flight of the intruder. my bad!

The main character's name in Flight of the Intruder was Jake Grafton. IIRC CoolHand Luke was a cowboy of one sort or another.

It doesn't really matter, as the handle doesn't really have anything to do with my name. I just dug the books.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Uh . . . . . . .

Apparently, 'cause I don't understand.

Bah, its from CoolHand Luke ;)

[warbeak2099]

Yea, it's the famous line from the movie. Classic...

Oh and Flight of the Intruder is another great mov... well it isn't very good, but it's about A-6's! My dad used to work on A-6's during Vietnam so I always hear about how it was a great plane and the F-18 is a poor excuse for a replacement. It is true. Thank you Bill Clinton for scrapping a perfectly good ground attack aircraft and replacing it with something that isn't as good.

[UTDragun]

a-6 driver? pilot or "naval aviator"

I'm sorry, my plane is the F-14

[VFX_Fenix]

The F-14... that's a BIG ship, if I had to pick a Navy plane I'd go with an F-18E, but that's only because I had a Lt. Commander friend that got me onto her air station as a guest and let me play in the Simulators lol. :headbang:

And now for something completely different...
http://www.livejournal.com/users/iharthdarth/7382.html <- Parents will like this one... dads anyway.

So, I dunno if I missed this or not, but what grip pannels are you planning on putting on these frames, CoolHand? I know they'll be Matrix grips, but I mean like Logic panels, Stickies, what?

[warbeak2099]

Must have stickies. It would be uber if the things had custom stickies with Logic jewels on them.

[CoolHand]

. . . . So, I dunno if I missed this or not, but what grip pannels are you planning on putting on these frames, CoolHand? I know they'll be Matrix grips, but I mean like Logic panels, Stickies, what?

DYE DM5 Sticky 3's.

Frymark isn't making grips anymore, and you really can't beat they sticky 3's for comfy anyway.

[warbeak2099]

Agreed. But what about replacing the circular DYE jewel with a Logic one?

[CoolHand]

Agreed. But what about replacing the circular DYE jewel with a Logic one?

Yeah, that would be cool, but:

1) That jewel is molded into the plastic backbone of the grips. (Meaning it is there to stay.)

2) I know I would get sued over that. :rofl:

And rightly so, defacing and rebranding their grips would be not so good, business wise anyway, not to mention that it would make them more expensive yet (its looking like $25 a pop as it is).

The frame will have our branding, you'll just have to live with the DYE logo on the grips.

[armyboot]

Quite interested in this. Mags have always been my first love.

I saw the render of the frame, looks awesome. Can you give a ballpark as to what it's dimensions will be similar to? I.e. intelliframe?

Sorry if that's been covered.

[UTDragun]

Yeah, that would be cool, but:

1) That jewel is molded into the plastic backbone of the grips. (Meaning it is there to stay.)

2) I know I would get sued over that. :rofl:

And rightly so, defacing and rebranding their grips would be not so good, business wise anyway, not to mention that it would make them more expensive yet (its looking like $25 a pop as it is).

The frame will have our branding, you'll just have to live with the DYE logo on the grips.
so i guess that cuts out a DIY kit?
or what about external?

[UTDragun]

(its looking like $25 a pop as it is).
for po' basts like me, TMC has a sale for $19 shipped whoo! 6 bucks i can use to eat tomorrow!

[CoolHand]

so i guess that cuts out a DIY kit?
or what about external?


What you do with the grips once they leave here, is out of my control. However, I cannot supply the parts for you.

Its not that big of a deal, its not like every other stcky 3 out there doesn't also have a DYE logo on it.

[CoolHand]

for po' basts like me, TMC has a sale for $19 shipped whoo! 6 bucks i can use to eat tomorrow!

Only thing they have on sale is DM4 grips. They are different from what I can see.

I used the DM5 grips because they are much more likely to be around when it comes time to need them (the DM4's are discontinued, and so are their parts).

At any rate, what's another $10 when you're spending $400 to begin with? :rofl:

(Sorry, I know $10 is $10, I just couldn't help myself).

Besides, the grips will likely come with the frame anyway.

You've got to have them, better to have wholesale tacked onto the cost of the frame, than pay retail from somewhere else, right?

[VFX_Fenix]

mmmmm... Sticky 3's tastey. I could... almost.... GAH!!! NO! They're all rubbery and they don't taste all that good sauted with butter and garlic....

CoolHand.... so help me if I have a Financial Aide check... I'm going to be a broke student....

[UTDragun]

Only thing they have on sale is DM4 grips. They are different from what I can see.
:tard: theres a difference?

[warbeak2099]

They both use the same grips. Hybrid's aftermarket grips for the DM's say they will fit DM4's, Protos, and DM5's.

[UTDragun]

well the poll has gotten 65 yes id buy it!

[CoolHand]

well the poll has gotten 65 yes id buy it!

I saw that, which is why I am collecting quotes, and getting ready to start the preorder list.

Hang in there guys, I should have a number for you all late next week.

[CoolHand]

a-6 driver? pilot or "naval aviator"

I'm sorry, my plane is the F-14

I just saw this.

The characters in the book who flew the A-6's referred to themselves as "A-6 Drivers".

And yes, F-14 was a very cool airplane.

[DarkMag722]

If logic produced a electronic frame i would by it. I would sell my Intelli for it.

[CoolHand]

PreOrder is up:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1947745#post1947745

That is all.

:ninja:

[UTDragun]

And yes, F-14 was a very cool airplane.


yes it is especially the F-14E and the never released F-14F

"Just keeping up foriegn relations..."