Ugh I'm tired of hearing about it...

[AGDlover]

OK I'm tired of hearing about people and thease ramping boards honnestly now. When Paintball was invented it was never though to have ramping boards let alone eletronic guns. Back the(note i'm saying this all from research) you'd be lucky to pull over 5bps. Everything was simple, no arguements, and no cheating. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Dynasty pulling 20+bps because of ramping. PEOPLE SHOOTING FASTER ISNT GOING TO HELP ANYTHING it wont help you to be a better player or a better shooter. IMO I think Ramping / Cheating Boards should be outlawed there is no point and its complete bogus. We are all lucky paintball has evolved to the point of even haveing electro markers. But all this about ramping, wiping, ect ect. Is makeing our sport courupt(sp). From now on all my mags will buy or build will be mechs. theres no point for some BS ramping

[tippmannsniper-]

if ur tired of hearing about it then just dont read the threads made about it, no one is forcing u

also why would u make a thread that WILL flare arguments about the subject?? if ur so tired of hearing it??

[AGDlover]

Because I was stateing a point that it should be outlawed because there is too much arguement over the subject allready and to have the PSP or NPPL haveing to change there rules because of it isnt cool

[tippmannsniper-]

the sport is evolving and people are looking for ways to get more firepower easier, u cant stop it, its to far into the sport

i dont like it either but there is not much u can do, until someone gets seriously injured due to it then its here to stay unfortunitly

[MadPSIence]

you're right guy. ramping should be banned, speed should be capped, and all boards should be supplied by the NPPL at the event. Whoever builds the boards I don't care but they should be regulated and made to perform the same.

take.. was and tag, contract them to make all of the boards for every gun in NPPL and have them regulated and tested before distribution at an event.

limit all firing to 15bps and have no enhanced modes.

i promise.. i PROMISE paintball will be a better sport.. and all gun-type cheating will be forever gone

[tippmannsniper-]

^^^ i wish, but then people would stop buying such highend guns due to the fact that lower end guns these days for cheaper can pull 15 bps so the need for a gun with higher bps would be gone therefor affecting the market negativley

but it would also affect companys in that they would start focasing on accuracy, efficiency, and quality rather than focusing on getting 25 ball to shoot out the end

so it has its upps and downs

this all if the nppl and psp and all that, supply boards

[tony3]

What is stopping someone from using a board made by was that is a cheater board? Really I would think the only way is to have someone supply the board that fits all markers that is locked in so that only psp officals can remove it. Then again what about the dwell on a gun? Certain gun parts require certain dwell. The 15 bps ramping is working great imo. They just need more people with radar guns out there that can do it from a distance.

My biggest compaint is refs are looking for illegal clothing, guns, gun speed and not focusing on their true job, THE GAME. Watch the actual game and know the rules. The refs at chicago open always would call players out but were afraid to make a call. When you bunker someone and they spin around and shoot you thats a penalty, no ref was making that call. Wait though, the second that gun goes under .065ms you get a penalty.

I think leagues just need refs that are willing to make a call and take harsh judgement. My biggest problem is refs that are easily manipulated. Make the call and stand behind it, if you were wrong, you made the call, keep it. We don't have instant replay whatever you said was your instinct and that is most of the time right over wrong. This happened to us at a tourney. One of my players had a questionable hit on his mask during almost the whole game and the ref never pulled him and clearly checked this hit and said it wasn't a hit. At the end of the game the other team kept complaining about it to the ref. Eventually the ref who called him clean during the game more then once, called him clean right after the game, now changes his call because the other team complained enough.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

well tony how would you feel if you have to spend 5 days getting shot at, baking in 90 degree + weather, only having a few slices of HOT pizza as the only meal, and putting up with the yelling of the spectators and teams?
As for the ramping... yea you wanna find a sollution? because banning and outlawing them is definately not happening

[KapitalJin]

All you need is a good mechanical gun with a smile... :headbang: now thats the way it was meant to be!

[BD_Paintball]

i think the 15bps cap is great. just get more people out there to watch it. there is nothing wrong with the 15bps cap in my opinion.

[minimag03]

I think the problem hasn't be solved because the people in power are making all the money. Companies sell more markers when they make ramping a stock feature. Paintball fields sell more paint if they allow ramping.

The simplest way to stop ramping at the field is to talk to the owner. Find out what type of insurence he has for the field. Then point out the section of rules that allow no enhanced modes. Makes use they know they can loose their insurence if anything happens. Since paintball fields need insurence to operate, they would go out of business.

[BigEvil]

If you like ir or not, the monster is out of its cage and there is no getting it back in.

I think we had this same sort of debate a few other times....

*12 gram or CA?
*Pump or semi?
*Co2 or HPA?
*Mechanical or Electro?
and now its
*Ramping or no Ramping?

The game is evolving. Personally I liked paintball when it was my little secret, and every little 12yo with a skateboard wasnt playing

[Crazy]

well tony how would you feel if you have to spend 5 days getting shot at, baking in 90 degree + weather, only having a few slices of HOT pizza as the only meal, and putting up with the yelling of the spectators and teams?
As for the ramping... yea you wanna find a sollution? because banning and outlawing them is definately not happening
I hope your talking about the spectators.. because the refs get paid 125$+ per day.

And if your tired of hearing about ramping, why don't you stay in the woods where it's not a problem.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

lol i hope that last sentence wasn't directed towards me *hugs 15bps ramping timmy*

[ultralight]

And if your tired of hearing about ramping, why don't you stay in the woods where it's not a problem.

that's the thing, it is becoming a problem in the woods. rec players are playing with enhanced modes and if the tournament refs can't catch them then the re refs sure as heck arent going to. most of the rec refs are gun whoring kids who work at the paintball shop anyway, they like to see people shooting fast. to them the faster you shoot the cooler you are. at least that's how it is around here.

[MadPSIence]

that's the thing, it is becoming a problem in the woods. rec players are playing with enhanced modes and if the tournament refs can't catch them then the re refs sure as heck arent going to. most of the rec refs are gun whoring kids who work at the paintball shop anyway, they like to see people shooting fast. to them the faster you shoot the cooler you are. at least that's how it is around here.

truth.

[Maggot6]

Personally, I'd love it if they had a paradigm shift somewhere where you couldn't have electronic markers. Stuff like the (dead) hAIR trigger would dominate the feild. Now, I am not just talking about mags getting big,(And well, it'd be nice if mags were more popular too ;) ) but just everything having that really light trigger pull, but no real possible way to cheat with your gun. Because there is no way to tell people with different boards etc Now that they should stop using them. As long as there are electronic markers with boards, people will try to get ramping as a feature. Anyone agree, or disagree?

[yakitori]

If you like ir or not, the monster is out of its cage and there is no getting it back in.

I think we had this same sort of debate a few other times....

*12 gram or CA?
*Pump or semi?
*Co2 or HPA?
*Mechanical or Electro?
and now its
*Ramping or no Ramping?

The game is evolving. Personally I liked paintball when it was my little secret, and every little 12yo with a skateboard wasnt playing

agreed. And AGDlover, how do you "know" what the ppl who invented paintball had in mind? Were you a part of it. When they invented planes, they had no idea that we would travel to space either. But we have. So should we be griping that we should still be flying The Wright brothers Original model?

Gimme a break. Stop complaining. The whining type is what is making paintball no fun. There are situations where ramping is appropriate, and deemed legal as such. For rec, its not a good thing.

NPPL doenst allow ramping. Its supposed to be semi only. Many ppl cheat and if they are caught they are penalized. The NPPL will NEVER supply boards for tourneys, because there is too large a variety of guns for them to do that. They would have to have hundreds of boards for each brand/type of gun. I doubt it will happen that way. The best thing they can do is keep improving on checking for cheaters.

I dont know whats worse. Threads with ppl bragging about how fast they can shoot w/ ramping, or ppl starting threads griping about ppl who brag about how fast they can shoot with ramping. :rolleyes:

and how many times have we heard this statement "I can shoot 14-16bps on my RT mag" :rolleyes: . And why arent you complaining about Tippmann RTs or Mags that are rapid firing because of higher input pressures or on/off mods? You see more of those kinds of guns in woods/rec that are being used to get a High ROF than you do a DM4, or Freestyle, or timmy. Yet you complain about guns that ppl hardly use in rec.

[JAM]

Everything was simple, no arguements, and no cheating.

Well, your "research" was wrong... there was certainly just as many arguments and just as much cheating. People will always find a way to get an edge over an opponent- sometimes it goes right up to the "line" of acceptability or legality, and sometimes just over it. I still find paintball as funa dn challenging today as it was in the days of pumps and CO2 powerlets.

[tony3]

well tony how would you feel if you have to spend 5 days getting shot at, baking in 90 degree + weather, only having a few slices of HOT pizza as the only meal, and putting up with the yelling of the spectators and teams?
As for the ramping... yea you wanna find a sollution? because banning and outlawing them is definately not happening


Refs at the chicago open got paid almost 14 dollars an hour for their job. I don't care if you didn't get enough food to eat, if it was hot, or if people were yelling at you. If you want to ref you need to be much stricter and not be influenced by spectators and teams. A good ref will put all that yelling out of his mind and just watch the game and not listen to anyone else. Too bad refs just want to please the masses even if it means making a bad call.

[Dayspring]

One man versus the entire paintball world... :rolleyes:



From now on all my mags will buy or build will be mechs. theres no point for some BS ramping

[68magOwner]

yes, i play with ramping/PSP firing mode rules, no, i do not like it, however, i DO feel that i has accomplished its goal of having legal markers on the field. prior to the PSP rules, i personally knew alot of guys with uncapped ramping, and almost everyone had at least some bounce. Now everyone is shooting 15bps with nearly no exceptions. Do i think that ramping takes away form the gunskills part of the game? Absolutely, but, for anyone who actually plays under PSP shooting rules, it is intense, almost constant firing from all guys=alot more paying attention to angles and alot more precise play, i think it has changed an aspect of the game, but, not necessarily for the worse.

[ojhspyro89]

The game is evolving. Personally I liked paintball when it was my little secret, and every little 12yo with a skateboard wasnt playing

Yeah whats with that....

Paintball is paintball. In the tournements that go around here there is no ramping or whatever. I dont have ramping on my gun and really dont want it.

All this ramping is just because of us americans, getting lazier and lazier.

[LIGHTEMUP]

ah i hear ya it sure was a mother trucker trying to sell my shocker and why? because it didnt have the nerve board in it! this is agravating do we really need to be shooting over 20 bps anyway?

[wyn1370]

From now on all my mags will buy or build will be mechs. theres no point for some BS ramping
hypocrite much?
Didn't you start a thread asking who had also pre-ordered a preditor board?
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=177680

[AGDlover]

omg wow i ordered a Predboard WOOPTI DOO!!! I bought it because i want to see how well it does proform. I'm still gonna have my 3.2 laying around

[Flow_Tech]

i didnt read a damn post on this thread besides the first one,but if your sick of hearing about it,stop clicking on posts that have stuff to do with it and dont make another post about it thats going to start an argument.your not going to change the fact that people ramp.i ramp,other people on AO ramp,hell,i bet you will ramp soon enough.i used to say "ill never ramp" but now i do.just quit your whining.

[SlartyBartFast]

NPPL doenst allow ramping. Its supposed to be semi only. Many ppl cheat and if they are caught they are penalized..

That's one mighty big IF. Even when a player cheated by sniping from the woods the organisers didn't have the balls to kick the team out and the player in question still had his fanboy supporters and appologists.

So, no one has yet shown the courage to impose penalties that really matter.

Secondly, how are the electronic cheats supposed to be detected? The NPPL uses a "robot", right? It's so simple to work around that. Even the NXL with the glove chronos isn't that hard to have the markers quickly switch to legal mode whenever checked.


The NPPL will NEVER supply boards for tourneys, because there is too large a variety of guns for them to do that. They would have to have hundreds of boards for each brand/type of gun. I doubt it will happen that way. The best thing they can do is keep improving on checking for cheaters..

Rubbish. The only reason it's not done is they don't really want to tackle cheating in an effective manner. Making a universal board that didn't allow any illegal adjustments would be simple. The cost could easily be included into the registration fees.

Or, only allow manufacturer sealed boards and make the manufacturers put up a bond to prove they can't be run using cheat modes.


and how many times have we heard this statement "I can shoot 14-16bps on my RT mag" :rolleyes: . And why arent you complaining about Tippmann RTs or Mags that are rapid firing because of higher input pressures or on/off mods?

I said in another thread: Put up or shut up. Show us one hypocrite that defends the use of Mags or Tippmans that fire against the rules while complaining about electronic marers that break the rules.

The difference is that in these casse, the "pros" if they are truly professional, and the sponsors that support them are supposed to set the example.

Yes, rec play violations are probably far worse. And those violations should be addressed. But those violations do not condone the electronic infractions. Your response is similar to a child whining: "But mommy, Bobby stole candy too."

[yakitori]

Slarty, Im suprised at your lack of intelligence in that post. That was not your greatest rebutals ive seen. The point of my first statement that you quoted and selected the wrong point w/in my statements was....and let me do this slow for you.

PPl earlier in the thread are making statements like the NPPL has adopted the 15bps rule.......which is wrong.....so I go on to say that NPPL is semi only. I dont know how you selected a two letter word in my whole sentence (IF) to exemplify on. :rolleyes:

Then you say that the only reason NPPL doesnt supply boards is because they dont want to tackle cheating. That sounds a bit farfetched and radical if you ask me. Unless you are on the NPPL committee that enforces rules and actually know some inside info that we dont? Are you? My statement is not rubbish. A lot of NPPL teams use their own equipment. I dont know about you, but if a board is going to be put in my gun it may not be that hard, but some guns will require soldering, and there are going to be some BS arguments w/ that. Are they going to want the board back after use? Are they going to issue and install the boards before EACH event? NO. Its impractical. Thats the whole point of NPPL firing modes on a board. So, w/ your mute point made, its apparent that your statement is more rubbish than mine.

And Ive seen too many posts with ppl asking......"how fast can the rt/ULT/mag shoot?" ppls responses.....I can pull 15-16bps on mine. :rolleyes: Thats a lie. And usually the ppl griping about ramping are rec.../scenario/ woodsball players....and they will see more tippmann RTs, and mag RTs rather than High end electros.

Stop your whining......I dont see how I sound childish. Look at your statements. They are more childish than anyone else that has posted.

:cheers:

[yakitori]

i didnt read a damn post on this thread besides the first one,but if your sick of hearing about it,stop clicking on posts that have stuff to do with it and dont make another post about it thats going to start an argument.your not going to change the fact that people ramp.i ramp,other people on AO ramp,hell,i bet you will ramp soon enough.i used to say "ill never ramp" but now i do.just quit your whining.

agreed. I think the reason ppl w/ emags whine is because they dont have ramping software yet. I hear it all the time, griping about other guns, and hailing emags etc. Being a good player has nothing to do w/ being the fastest shooter.

[Kaiser Bob]

There would just have to be a board for tournaments that kept all programming on a removeable chip, so the NPPL could just supply the chips. It would be up to the gun owner to remember what dwell settings worked best for their gun and reset them after having the tournament chip put in. There would need to be specs for the boards so someone doesnt sneak in a board with seperate programming and just a dummy socket but that should do the trick.

[yakitori]

hey AGDlover......what about this?

This is your response to RRfireblades thread about 1.0 firmware with ramping modes, etc.

Why are you griping? Are you against ramping or do you want the ramping firmware that might come out? OR are you just brown-nosing fireblade?

Its gotta be one of the three.


sweet dude i'l have to get it as soon as it comes out

[tony3]

Why do people care so much about ramping? Just ignore it if you are so mad about it. It was only a matter of time till ramping became mainstream. The psp 15 bps ramping is awesome and I love playing with it. Everyone is playing at the same level besides those that wish to cheat, and cheaters are definitely caught, most of the time.

[AGDlover]

hey AGDlover......what about this?

This is your response to RRfireblades thread about 1.0 firmware with ramping modes, etc.

Why are you griping? Are you against ramping or do you want the ramping firmware that might come out? OR are you just brown-nosing fireblade?

Its gotta be one of the three.


Hey I preordered the Pred board. Your gonna start going off on me for buying a product that yes has ramping but hey did i ever say i was gonna use it. Theres always the "go back to my old 3.2" Like i've stated I'm buying thease products for preformance testing reasons.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

"performance testing reasons" ...so basically you want to ramp

[yakitori]

whatever AGD lover, soon youll be back on AO after you get your pred board saying that others are making a bigger deal of ramping than it actually is.

Give it some time, play more speedball, youll come round. ;)

Im not going off on your for it buying it. Im going off cause you are griping about it and are strongly opinionated against ramping yet you are excited to buy pred, or 1.0 ramping firmware that will prolly never come out. Just like all the pneumag.

[SlartyBartFast]

I won't repeat your stupidity from the other thread Yakki, but why does it have to be all or nothing? Why the bipolar thought processes?

Why can't the allowance of ramping and the ramping level be harshly monitored in tournaments yet available for use when appropriate or desired?

I can go out and buy a turbo for my car and even stock I can drive far faster than the speed limit. Doesn't mean I don't want to see every idiot driving 20+ over the limit have their licence revoked.

[yakitori]

Why do people care so much about ramping? Just ignore it if you are so mad about it. It was only a matter of time till ramping became mainstream. The psp 15 bps ramping is awesome and I love playing with it. Everyone is playing at the same level besides those that wish to cheat, and cheaters are definitely caught, most of the time.


agreed.

[hitech]

... and all gun-type cheating will be forever gone

If it were only that simple...

[Load SM5]

The next person to take this to the level of personal insults gets a 3 day ban. AO has begun to sound like a bunch of whiney 6 year olds of late and I'm sick of it.

[hitech]

I think we had this same sort of debate a few other times....

*12 gram or CA?
*Pump or semi?
*Co2 or HPA?
*Mechanical or Electro?
and now its
*Ramping or no Ramping?



I don't remember it being the same. For everything before ramping I remember "everyone" saying that you "had to have...".


Personally I liked paintball when it was my little secret, and every little 12yo with a skateboard wasnt playing

Yeah, I kinda agree...

[BigEvil]

I don't remember it being the same. For everything before ramping I remember "everyone" saying that you "had to have...".



Yeah, I kinda agree...


Yeah I hear ya'

Now its like "YOU have to have" or "Else" you cant compete.

[PaintballSmurf13]

"PEOPLE SHOOTING FASTER ISNT GOING TO HELP ANYTHING it wont help you to be a better player or a better shooter"

ok... well i'd just like to point out that it's harder to run through a stream of 20bps than say...14. It does help when it comes to things like shooting off break... and I seriously don't see what the big deal is with ramping... yeah, so there's a few more balls in the air, big deal... i've played with guys ramping like crazy and guys that have totally legal guns... it makes no difference on the recieving end ... i don't walk off the field with more hits on me...
i don't know...i personally like ramping modes :shooting: ...but i choose not to use them
and if you're shooting mech mags then i doubt you're playing PSP/NPPL/NXL where these issues are present... so why worry about it??

[AGDlover]

Ya but is it really needed i guess you could ask i mean comeon people the majority of your shots just miss anyway so you wanna miss a coupple more times then? lol i put that last part in just for giggles

Edit: ok this was a quote i saw on glen palmers shirt i saw at shatnerball
"Do you really need that many balls to miss me?"

[hitech]

... and I seriously don't see what the big deal is with ramping...

Because it is cheating. :nono:

[AGDlover]

wate is hitech agreeing with me? lol

[Automaggot68]

whatever AGD lover, soon youll be back on AO after you get your pred board saying that others are making a bigger deal of ramping than it actually is.

Give it some time, play more speedball, youll come round. ;)

Im not going off on your for it buying it. Im going off cause you are griping about it and are strongly opinionated against ramping yet you are excited to buy pred, or 1.0 ramping firmware that will prolly never come out. Just like all the pneumag.


Jesus, What is it with you and slamming everyone who likes ramping?
Its like this some sort of personal vendetta with you.

[yakitori]

Jesus, What is it with you and slamming everyone who likes ramping?
Its like this some sort of personal vendetta with you.

Im sorry, but you have totally gotten your idea reversed. I have not taken the side against ramping. Re-read my posts. I am actaully ragging on ppl for complaining about ramping.

Please learn to read.
:rolleyes:

[hitech]

"Do you really need that many balls to miss me?"

:rofl:

That is great. I really need to get by and complement Glenn...

:cheers:

[Flow_Tech]

RAMPING IS FUN K? THXBYE!

Seriously,who careeees,dont play if you dont like it.it will always be around unless you play in mech/SC class.

[hitech]

Seriously,who careeees,dont play if you dont like it. It will always be around unless you play in mech/SC class.

I care. It's cheating and I care about that. I won't quite playing because of it, and your (or anyone else's) telling me not to is not going to change my mind. When I see cheating I complain. Those who can't play without cheating need to quit. :headbang:

And it is far from a foregone conclusion that ramping is here to stay...

[Blazestorm]

OK I'm tired of hearing about people and thease ramping boards honnestly now. When Paintball was invented it was never though to have ramping boards let alone eletronic guns. Back the(note i'm saying this all from research) you'd be lucky to pull over 5bps. Everything was simple, no arguements, and no cheating. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Dynasty pulling 20+bps because of ramping. PEOPLE SHOOTING FASTER ISNT GOING TO HELP ANYTHING it wont help you to be a better player or a better shooter. IMO I think Ramping / Cheating Boards should be outlawed there is no point and its complete bogus. We are all lucky paintball has evolved to the point of even haveing electro markers. But all this about ramping, wiping, ect ect. Is makeing our sport courupt(sp). From now on all my mags will buy or build will be mechs. theres no point for some BS ramping

I like the fact that I can run full speed and shoot 18bps.

I enjoy it, It doesn't corrupt anything. There was always cheating back in the day, but it was less talked about. If someone cheated they didn't BRAG about it like they do now. I shot my teammate 3 times before he got me and he wiped all 3 hits, no ref was there and I never saw the balls actually break (snap shooting) and he said after the game "Ya dude you got me on the tank, shoulder and wrist but uh those were gone fast ;) " I wasn't mad, I didn't even know I shot him, I just assumed I missed/ they bounced.

Ramping boards don't overshoot people, the retards behind the guns do.

Ramping boards don't corrup the sport, the retards behind the guns do.

All ramping does is allow us to play the sport faster and with less effort.

I can shooot 16-18 legally, I know I can. But it's so much easier to pull the trigger with one finger and shoot 18bps then it is to walk it at 18. Anyone who wants to challenge me can meet me in person, I will beat you in semi with little to no bounce (You might get the occasional double-shot on my gun)

[hitech]

Anyone who wants to challenge me can meet me in person, I will beat you in semi with little to no bounce...

I didn't realize we had the best damn paintball player, period on this forum...

:hail:













:rofl:

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

hitech wait. are you saying all of ramping is cheating or the illegal ramping that goes against rules?
Ramping does have its advantages. It teaches you how to NOT WALK INTO A 20BPS STREAM.

AGDLOVER: "Ya but is it really needed i guess you could ask i mean comeon people the majority of your shots just miss anyway so you wanna miss a coupple more times then?"

agdlover... maybe people aren't trying to hit the other players, maybe they are trying to lock down the field so that no one can move or maybe they want to shoot the player in so the rest of their team can move forward. not every shot is suppose to hit someone, but lets say off the break you start running, the chances of you getting shot are greater at 15bps than 10bps

[Blazestorm]

I didn't realize we had the best damn paintball player, period on this forum...
:hail:
:rofl:

I meant in finger speed, I'm not that good in paintball, I just know I have the fastest fingers. ;) :p

[Jonno06]

dunno if anyone else said it, but....


isnt it weird how you're complaining and mentioning the 'good ole days' when people shot 5bps with mech guns...and you have an emag?

[hitech]

hitech wait. are you saying all of ramping is cheating or the illegal ramping that goes against rules?

ALL ramping is cheating. A couple of "leagues" decided to allow it, but that is only because they could not enforce the rule against it. EVERYWHERE else it is against the rules. It's cheating. It also is not ASTM compliant.

[hitech]

Isn't it weird how you're complaining and mentioning the 'good ole days' when people shot 5bps with mech guns...and you have an emag?

No, it's not weird. Just because I would like everyone to go back to only pulling the trigger with one finger doesn't mean I will only play that way. I want to be able to keep up ROF wise when I need it. However, interestingly, I find that most of the time I just pull the trigger with one finger... ;)

[yakitori]

In a robot voice "You are disqualified....you have been caught shooting 15 balls per second.....that is not ASTM compliant"

:rofl:

I laugh everytime I hear that. Ya but its not ASTM compliant. lol.

:spit_take

[hitech]

In a robot voice "You are disqualified....you have been caught shooting 15 balls per second.....that is not ASTM compliant"

:rofl:

I laugh everytime I hear that. Ya but its not ASTM compliant. lol.

:spit_take

I take it you don't know what makes a marker ASTM compliant? BTW, it has NOTHING to do with ROF.

[Lohman446]

When ASTM standard 6.5.4 changes my view on ramping may change. Or when people conduct scientific studies that at least indicate it is safe. I used ramping.. I decided with the current legal environment, with no scientific studies to indicate it was safe, and all scientific standards indicating it was not that I was too close to civil and CRIMINAL negligence and they were not risks I was willing to take and quit taking them. Of course when I used it it was an informed decision, not using it was an informed decision, I actually knew the risks, and the standards. Look close, you can find ASTM 6.5.4


http://home.comcast.net/~allfor114all/AOIAOred.gif

[Pyroboy597]

Whoever made this thread... show me where the inventor of the sport of paintball (if there even is a person who you can find) said "i never thought about electric guns that could shoot faster." You all are making statements that you cant back up.. Just because there are rediculously fast guns out there that can make the game "less fun" doesnt mean that people never thought that they would exist

[yakitori]

I take it you don't know what makes a marker ASTM compliant? BTW, it has NOTHING to do with ROF.

it does in the sense of THIS thread. We are talking about ramping, fa, etc. which concerns ROF. Where are you trying to take the discussion...la la land. ;).

[yakitori]

When ASTM standard 6.5.4 changes my view on ramping may change. Or when people conduct scientific studies that at least indicate it is safe. I used ramping.. I decided with the current legal environment, with no scientific studies to indicate it was safe, and all scientific standards indicating it was not that I was too close to civil and CRIMINAL negligence and they were not risks I was willing to take and quit taking them. Of course when I used it it was an informed decision, not using it was an informed decision, I actually knew the risks, and the standards. Look close, you can find ASTM 6.5.4


http://home.comcast.net/~allfor114all/AOIAOred.gif

so I guess we should quit bunkering then too huh? Just cause ASTM says that goggles should not be shot at a distance closer than 10 feet, and if shot at a distance of 10 feet they should be replaced immediately. Do you follow that rule? Even if you are playing pump or semi? Likely not.

You guys still sound like a bunch of robots. You have to understand what it takes to get any scientific study passed in the US. Practically none. For example, pharmacuetical companies have three phases before FDA approves a drug for public use. Phase 1 studies involve a test group of only 8 ppl. Phase 2 is 16ppl. Phase three is 64 ppl. So many ppl are taking drugs that have been tested on only 74 ppl to get their results, some of which is biased to try and boost sales of their newly marketed drug. In fact, many drugs are even recalled after being released to the public. SOme of which cause serious health problems or death do to their side effects. Do americans take a stand on that? No, they dont. They dont even seem to care about health care or prescription drugs until their family has to pay for it.

Ill take my chances w/ ramping. I disagree w/ the ASTM in that aspect of paintball. When I personally get injured as a DIRECT result of ramping, then I will have all the scientific evidence I need to disagree with. However, I play w/ ppl that ramp every weekend for the past year, and I have not seen one injury that has been Scientifically linked to ramping.

Robots. :cool:

[Lohman446]

it does in the sense of THIS thread. We are talking about ramping, fa, etc. which concerns ROF. Where are you trying to take the discussion...la la land. ;).


Yak.. I posted ASTM standard 6.5.4 - where does it say anything about limiting rate of fire to XX balls per second? It limits firing modes, they are the only scientific published safety standards that I am aware of to address firing modes.

Edit... btw, I am sure the mods mentioned that personal attacks, flaming, and demeaning names were not acceptable, perhaps you should reread those considerations before you resort to calling anyone who has actual knowledge of ASTM rules "robots". Because I'm fine with playing the "punk name calling game" but its getting annoying. Disagree fine, but do so logically without having to take off hand remarks at the end.

[yakitori]

Yak.. I posted ASTM standard 6.5.4 - where does it say anything about limiting rate of fire to XX balls per second? It limits firing modes, they are the only scientific published safety standards that I am aware of to address firing modes.

ok lohman, I wasnt reciting an ASTM rule in a robot voice I was mocking someone. Geez. :rolleyes:

[yakitori]

I said you guys sound like robots. That is not name calling. If you consider robots a personal attack against, I feel sorry for you.

You guys just dont consider anyones opinion to be valid unless I speak like a robot. Forget all the technical jargon. You are not going to be able to change the ramping rule. Get over it. Stop reciting the ASTM rule all the time. Its annoying.

moving on.......

[Lohman446]

ok lohman, I wasnt reciting an ASTM rule in a robot voice I was mocking someone. Geez. :rolleyes:

Isn't mocking someone a personal attack and against the forum rules? A personal attack that the moderators warned you against in other threads? Nice :ninja: edit though... you want to delete some of your content, I'll delete some of mine and we'll go... yeh, should have known better than to get into it :D

[yakitori]

Isn't mocking someone a personal attack and against the forum rules? A personal attack that the moderators warned you against in other threads?

Did I say that "someone" was an AO user. I was mocking the fact that ppl (in general) use ASTM standards as their personal vendetta against ramping. Moving on.......Old subject.......no changes........wont be.......moving on.

Whatever, the mods are smart enough and actually read the whole thread to see what statement ended up where. I was not launching a personal attack on anyone. Im sure they will be able to read that for themselves, they are smart, reasonable guys.

[SlartyBartFast]

Wow. Lot's of people talking at cross purposes and raising a dozen tangential issues.
Some of the issues:

What was paintball "meant to be".

Who cares what the inventor thought. The question is what do we think.

-What skills do you want to test?
-What is best to attract new players?
-What is best to make the sport attractive to watch?

Electronic/mechanical/pump/modifed-SC/SC

Who cares. Whatever rocks your boat.

However, any league, organisation, or field that is really interested in promoting and growing the sport and not just in turning a profit should promote ALL forms.

Ramping or using enhanced modes in games/leagues or on fields that don't allow it.

When it's expressly against the rules, ideally IMO, anyone ramping should be castrated on the spot. 20bps full auto from 5ft straight at the family jewels.

In leagues, teams should be disqualified for the day and players should be banned.
On fields, the player should be ejected from the property.

Accidentally ramped? My eye. :rolleyes:

See below: "accidentally breaking rules"


Ramping/modes in games/leagues or on fields that allow it.

There's nothing to argue.

Rules are rules. Follow the rule book or suffer the consequences.

Don't use everything allowed and suffer the possible disadvantages associated with your decision.

But, what are the possible consequences of allowing anything other than unenhanced, semi-automatic, one trigger pull equals one ball in the air? see below

Ramping/modes in games/leagues or on fields that allow it.
But ramping HIGHER than allowed or using a mode that isn't specifically allowed.

See above: "Ramping or using enhanced modes in games/leagues or on fields that don't allow it."

Castration, Ejection, Disqualification, Banishment, Eternal Damnation. Al that good stuff.

Ramping/modes/full-auto chips and boards anywhere else

If you get your jollies wasting paint in your backyard or at the target range. Whatever.
If you like proving or bragging about things that are impossible during game play (bps/cps or whatever requiring SCUBA tanks or modifications that can't be brought on field or that won't result in the marker firing paint). Whatever.

Personally I think you're deranged. But then again I think people who like to rev their engines at stop lights, burn rubber, or like to brag about dynamometer readings and max torque are nincompoops with more than a single brain cell missing.

If you can't bring your game onto the field of competition and stay within the rules, you're worse than useless.

Or, you have a group of masochist friends who want to play full auto or "all modes allowed". Whatever. Have at it.

But, what are the possible consequences of allowing anything other than unenhanced, semi-automatic, one trigger pull equals one ball in the air? see below

Accidentally Breaking Rules/Not My Fault

There's no such thing as accidentally breaking a rule.

"I'm sooooo sorry Mr Umpire sir. I didn't know that the bat was corked. Honestly I didn't." :rolleyes:

Rules are fair when they are enforced. Either you did or you didn't break the rule. The why or how is irrelevant. Break the rule, suffer the consequences.

SOME rules are open to interpretation. But that's what refs and officials are for.

In most cases though there is a complete lack of resposibility, honour, or moral fiber in both teams and individuals when it comes to either acting in the correct manner in the first place or living up to honour, duty, and responsibility once an infraction is caught.

Consequences of Allowing Ramping/Modes - Non-Legal

Well, at the tournament level no much. Any player can reasonable expect anything and everything allowable by the letter of the rule book and should be able to expect enforcement of the same. (and that's another hornet's nest that I've poked more than once before)

At the local level, it's a whole other ball of wax. How styles of play are divided may have an enormous impact on repeat business. The new players need to have an atmosphere in which they can become accustomed to the sport. Yet, they also need exposure to other styles of play.

While SC may not be a great money maker (it may be a money loser) for the field owner, perhaps it might "hook" newer players who won't be stressed by paint prices or be shell shocked by regulars raining down streams of paint. Where can you rent pumps anymore??

Consequences of Allowing Ramping/Modes - Legal

Here's an area that's so dark and uninviting that the entire paintball industry is at risk. Not just the allowing of firing modes that are specifically forbidden:
1 - by signed industry agreement,
2 - by industry developed regulations adopted by a national standards association (ASTM)
3 - by field insurance policies.

But also the entire host of regulations, required employee training, and safety violations that manufacturers, league organisers, promoters, field owners, and paintballers glibly ignore every day.

There's a very sound reason that AGD separated their non-paintball division(s) from their paintball division.

If anything came before a court of law, the first three items and the letter of official rule books would be what the incident would be judged on.

So far, injury and death in paintball has been attributed to equipment failure or incompetence (the CO2 tank that killed a mother or the field owner that used low pressure parts in a high pressure fill system).

But the day that any death or injury occurs that can be attributed to standard paintball procedure and equipment operating as designed (including adjusted within allowed limits) the "excrement will hit the air moving device".

Even in the U.S. the constitution can only protects ownership of firearms. Not so sure mere sporting goods would survive. Paintball isn't crucial to personal defense.

If firefighters and other professionals that use high pressure air are required by law to use blast containment tanks and have special training to fill cylinders why does paintball allow anyone on the field to self-fill while standing next to the tank or even while holding it? So what happens when a kid gets injured and the appropriate regulatory body stops ignoring the sport? (Although I am unsure of what the true implications are in this case. The very companies that are involved in highly regulated HP gas industries supply the self-serve fill stations to the unregulated paintball industry.)

One player, suffering an injury, could sue the pants off another player that caused it and sue the league into non-existance for not enforcing rules or preventing forseeable and preventable injuries. A ramping hair trigger putting multiple shots into the back of a player's head on a bunkering move for example....

Currently, today with no new laws or regulations, one inspector on a mission could shut down most fields. How many tanks and air equipment could be confiscated at the average day of play by someone enforcing the gas industry rules? How many untrained employees subject to fines? How many field fill installations don't meet regulations? How many improperly filled tanks?

If you thought some paintball operations had it tough because of uninformed prejudice on town planning boards, wait till you see the problems EVERY paintball operation will have when EVERY planning board and town council has access to enforceable required standards based on the same prejudices AND informed opinion.

Conclusion

There are MANY other issues. If you're "sick of hearing about it" as this thread proclaims, tough.

Deal with the threads by responding intelligently or ignore them. Or, in the words of those that think others MUST adopt their way or hit the highway, you can leave the discussion boards.

Should the NHL and MLB just accept drug use because "that's the way it's played"? Should those that don't like corked bats, overcurved sticks, or the teams that dislike the new tire rules in F1 all just either live with the cheating or put-up with the rules or simply quit?

IMO, no.

[SlartyBartFast]

So, Yaki.

Am I a robot if i parrot official NPPL rules to complain about behaviour or point out inconsistencies?

Your entire position seems to be:

I'm a cheater. I don't care if you know I cheat. If there are rules I don't care about them. If you don't like it, get off my field.

[Lohman446]

Slarty... I think you forgot one thing in your well worded summary. Some of us beleive that there is a distinct possibility that ramping (violating ASTM standards) may result in criminal (as well as civil) negligence should something go tragically wrong

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167377

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

There are MANY other issues. If you're "sick of hearing about it" as this thread proclaims, tough.

Deal with the threads by responding intelligently or ignore them. Or, in the words of those that think others MUST adopt their way or hit the highway, you can leave the discussion boards.


this thread has just become one giant mess with insults being throwin everywhere. this thread started with one person saying he thinks ramping should be banned forever yet he has posted numerous times how he loves ramping boards. Then it evolved to should ramping be allowed, then it evolved again to people sounding like robots, then the bashing started.

Can we all just let this thread die because this is going nowhere

[SlartyBartFast]

then it evolved again to people sounding like robots, then the bashing started.

All think all but one would be adamant that the bashing started one post back with the resort to calling posters robotic.

The initial insult was given/taken based on one member's complete inability to avoid resorting to demeaning and mocking comments whenever argued into a corner.

They of course don't view it that way. They believe that adjectives and indirect atack constitue viable logical argumentation. :rolleyes:

But it has already been demonstrated that some people have no understanding of firstly why certain posts can be interpreted as insulting even when the don't specifically name others and secondly (and far more puzzling) don't even get it when people are offended that they ARE specifically named (thinking back to an infamous "appology thread").


Can we all just let this thread die because this is going nowhere

Don't like it, you can leave all by yourself. Unsubscribe and ignore the thread.

Or, in the pathetically misguided opinion of some, your dislike of this one thread should mean that you should completely avoid AO altogehter. Much like a dislike of an aspect of paintball is grounds to demand that someone quit playing altogether. A piece of advice they themselves seem to ignore.

The first post of this thread is as wrong in its adamant claims of True and Pure Paintball as those that claim the same of ramping, mode using, wiping, and rule bending.

An another note: :D

The ONLY people who can ask for a thread to stop are the mods.

And ironically, your call to have it die has just given it more life and yet another divergant topic.... :rofl:

[Automaggot68]

Im sorry, but you have totally gotten your idea reversed. I have not taken the side against ramping. Re-read my posts. I am actaully ragging on ppl for complaining about ramping.

Please learn to read.
:rolleyes:

Oh MY MISTAKE.
Quit slamming people who...LIKE it then?
I could care elss what the hell your stance is, you're handling it like a damned jerk.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

All think all but one would be adamant that the bashing started one post back with the resort to calling posters robotic.

Don't like it, you can leave all by yourself. Unsubscribe and ignore the thread.


1. i was referring to yaki
2. i have been ignoring threads like this, then one by one the topics all keep comming back. this thread was started by one person disliking something. why can't he just ignore it and leave. then everyone wouldn't have such a hassle arguing with eachother.

[hitech]

I said you guys sound like robots. That is not name calling.

hUH??? :confused: Sure it is. It's calling those guys robots. Now, you MAY not think calling someone a robot is insulting, but I'd bet most people do. I know I do, and I am one of "those guys".

[yakitori]

lol, this funny. Some of you guys post in rebutal to my posts and try to insult and demean my statements and Im okay with it. Yet I say *in a robot voice* Non-Compliant ASTM etc, etc. and you guys go into a rage. You guys are taking the ramping issue and rules to the extreme. Youve disected rules and pushed it to no end. Who cares. THats all Im saying. Its annoying to see how many threads are started in one week about a ramping issue that we all know the other persons position on the subject is yet we still continue to make the same statements over and over. Agree to disagree, stop griping about everything, and being so negative about every rule and *in a robot voice* ASTM standards say this "...."

If thats what you believe about ramping and ASTM standards then stick with it. Im happy for you for standing up for what you believe in. But you dont have to parade the forum w/ the same positions on a ton of threads about the issue trying to get everyone else to believe it too. Ramping to 15bps where tournies allow it, big deal. I dont even use ramping, so I am speaking from the non ramping side. Ramping, big deal *shrugs* thats kinda how I feel about it. And so does a large percentage of paintballers. Dont play with ppl that use ramping when its appropriate since your are against it, thats really standing up for what you believe.

[Lohman446]

lol, this funny. Some of you guys post in rebutal to my posts and try to insult and demean my statements and Im okay with it. Yet I say *in a robot voice* Non-Compliant ASTM etc, etc. and you guys go into a rage. You guys are taking the ramping issue and rules to the extreme. Youve disected rules and pushed it to no end. Who cares. THats all Im saying. Its annoying to see how many threads are started in one week about a ramping issue that we all know the other persons position on the subject is yet we still continue to make the same statements over and over. Agree to disagree, stop griping about everything, and being so negative about every rule and *in a robot voice* ASTM standards say this "...."

If thats what you believe about ramping and ASTM standards then stick with it. Im happy for you for standing up for what you believe in. But you dont have to parade the forum w/ the same positions on a ton of threads about the issue trying to get everyone else to believe it too. Ramping to 15bps where tournies allow it, big deal. I dont even use ramping, so I am speaking from the non ramping side. Ramping, big deal *shrugs* thats kinda how I feel about it. And so does a large percentage of paintballers. Dont play with ppl that use ramping when its appropriate since your are against it, thats really standing up for what you believe.


You know.. thats odd, before we got into this personal level of insults I said specifically that my stance was tied to ASTM standard 6.5.4 and when it changed I would reconsider my viewpoint. I'm more concerned with the criminal negligence of using it myself than allowing its use. Having used it and gone away from it I really don't see the great competetive advantage it is supposed to give anyways.

[yakitori]

You know.. thats odd, before we got into this personal level of insults I said specifically that my stance was tied to ASTM standard 6.5.4 and when it changed I would reconsider my viewpoint. I'm more concerned with the criminal negligence of using it myself than allowing its use. Having used it and gone away from it I really don't see the great competetive advantage it is supposed to give anyways.

and we all know that was your position before this thread was even started. Im just saying that threads that get started over and over about the same issue that have always ended up in ppl taking strong opposition to each other on the issue, when we already know that ppl who are on both sides of the issue have deep opinions about their position. Why do we have to keep repeating the same issue over and over when they always end up the same. Its a broken record and its sad to see the same issue started in 3 or so threads in a week just to encourage debate.

agree to disagree. Im not saying anything else about the issue, I know where you stand on it and your reasons for it. I guess Im just a bit more permissive than most ppl. It doesnt seem to bother me as much because I love playing paintball. I dont care if someones ramping to an acceptable level against me. It helps me perfect my moves and make better, quicker decisions and snap shoot faster. Im not griping about it, and I have not been injured. I get bruises from welts no matter what. I havent noticed an increase in welts since playing against ppl that ramp and I shoot my viking in semi. If I played in PSP and its allowed, Id use it.

[SlartyBartFast]

You know.. thats odd, before we got into this personal level of insults I said specifically that my stance was tied to ASTM standard 6.5.4 and when it changed I would reconsider my viewpoint. I'm more concerned with the criminal negligence of using it myself than allowing its use. Having used it and gone away from it I really don't see the great competetive advantage it is supposed to give anyways.

Let's face it. Certain members of AO couldn't tell a logical argument from a hole in their head. :rolleyes:

I too am apt to change my mind. But when the opposing view point is expressed by simply parroting "why do you care?" and a "screw the rules" attitude you have to wonder why they even bother posting.

I mean if your standpoint is so vacant that you have absolutely nothing positive to say and no reasonable support for your beliefs, why bother posting?

And it's pathetic that avoiding threads is SIMPLE. So why do the same people come into threads we know they have nothing of substance to contribute to only to ***** and whine that the thread is useless or lob generalised insults?

I've challenged some people to quote me and then themselves with one, JUST ONE, logical well thought out point and counterpoint. And they can't come up with even that.

When continued to be challenged logically they get insulting (in their own words: defensive). When their inconsistencies are pointed out or you complain about insults they don't know what you're talking about and invariably answer:

"Read back through the thread. I answered you. Do your own homework." What a crock. I can't imagine what trying to have a face to face conversation is like with someone like that.

Personally, I'd love to hear why ramping is good, why cheaters should be ignored, and how any of that is good for the sport or an improvement of the game.

Also, I'd like to see counter arguments as to why various analogies are specifically invalid and why paintball equipment is somehow different from anything else covered by ASTM.

Perhaps a defense of why the industry went agfainst their own agreements or ignore ASTM.

Counter proposals on how to promote better rules enforcement? Proposals for better rules?

But no. The mental midgets just want to brag, boost their ego, and pose with the latest shiney piece of equipment. The result here is people too lazy to make a point and who consider mockery and insult legitimate discourse. Or people so self-absorbed that they figure that if they can get away with it too, why fix anything.

[hitech]

Why do we have to keep repeating the same issue over and over when they always end up the same. Its a broken record and its sad to see the same issue started in 3 or so threads in a week just to encourage debate.

Because it's interesting. Different people join in each thread along with the "regulars". And, no offence intended, those who don't like them can just ignore them. Hell, I ignore A LOT of threads... ;)

[Lohman446]

I am soo confused. We started a thread, and many of use put out logical reasoned arguments to both sides of the issue. We were having a reasonable discussion. Then one person, who posted well before I did for instance, decides to resort to name calling. Then that same person says noone should have stated there opinion???

[Blazestorm]

Another thought to add...

Mags were probably the first gun to illegally achieve high ROFs...

Higher input pressure + Hybrid on Emags?

[yakitori]

thats exaclty my point. Ppl brag about mags speed, and then call ppl that shoot that fast w/ any other gun using ramping or bounce a cheater. Tippmann RTs are cheating, cranking up your psi on your RT to bounce it is cheating, hybrid mode bounce is cheating, yet ppl single out ramping. I say get over it and get bashed. Ppl quote me and say things like "fuzzy logic" and "unintelligent" and dont think its bashing/flaming until I say robots. :rolleyes:

Im through discussing anything w/ lohman or slarty. They can be on my ignore list from now on. All they do is get smart about every statement. Disect every rule and support ASTM. Yet, ASTM doesnt have published scientific research that I am capable of reading the abstract, intro, materials and methods, results, conclusiong, and discussion of the REAL scientific techniques they used to determine a safe level of paintball play. Nobody has provided that, yet they always as for scientific evidence that ramping is not safe. There isnt documentation to prove that either. That makes it a play at your own risk.

[BD_Paintball]

yakitori you'r my new e-hero

[Lohman446]

I love how Shartely and I are thrown into the people who just go nuts over a high pressure RT. Funny, it seems I make the same comments regarding that type of thing.... So my "two sided" thing with the RT is just a flat out falsehood that someone hoped could be applied to me.

I don't recall calling you unitelligent, or using the term fuzzy logic... I have said before that i don't think some things make sense, but that is directed to ideas, and the expressions of thoughts.

Funny how its always "ASTM standards" that is all I talk about. I have said before that I think the advantages of ramping are overrated and I have also said that it was more of a concern of criminal negligence than it was of violating ASTM standards... though those standards are a big part of negligence.

So... you going to apply something to me, at least make sure its something that is in reality there.

[yakitori]

I love how Shartely and I are thrown into the people who just go nuts over a high pressure RT. Funny, it seems I make the same comments regarding that type of thing.... So my "two sided" thing with the RT is just a flat out falsehood that someone hoped could be applied to me.

I don't recall calling you unitelligent, or using the term fuzzy logic... I have said before that i don't think some things make sense, but that is directed to ideas, and the expressions of thoughts.

Funny how its always "ASTM standards" that is all I talk about. I have said before that I think the advantages of ramping are overrated and I have also said that it was more of a concern of criminal negligence than it was of violating ASTM standards... though those standards are a big part of negligence.

So... you going to apply something to me, at least make sure its something that is in reality there.

I use your name and slartys in there because you two seem to be the only two that go on and on and on about my statements. Not once did I say Lohman and slarty brag about the mags speed by sweetspotting yet gripe about other guns. I always say PPL as in AO in general. And thats still not accusing everyone on AO. Ive seen threads however where slarty has bragged about the air valves recharging capabilities. Which would have an input pressure of over 900psi. Big deal. And its still illegal.

So to sum it up for you again. I never used your two names in the same sentence or accused you of saying such things about the speed of mags.

And you still havent been able to provide REAL scientific studies that are complete w/ materials and methods of how ASTM has concluded upon their findings. There must be some if it is REAL scientific studies that was conducted to find it out. Everyone has a hypothesis and tests it using a control group and a test group. I want to see some physical scientifc proof that ASTM standards are safe.

I dont feel criminally negligent cause I play an extreme sport where ppl get shot w/ projectiles whether Im shooting 13-16bps in semi or ramping controllably at 15bps. Just because ramping is a feature doesnt mean that everyone is just letting paint fly at 15bps. You dont have to make the ramping activate ya know. Its 3 pulls semi, on the fourth shot you have to maintain a certain bps to ramp. You can still pull with one finger w/o hosing someone. It falls on the judgement of the user. You seem to blame the guns and the ppl who made the 15bps rule.