my new (to me) ironmen autococker

[slade]

I picked this up on ebay about a week ago for $101 shipped. it was supposedly working, but... wasnt. i hooked up my nitro tank and it drained the whole thing. i stripped the whole gun down to try to find the leak, and eventually figured it was the valve, but then found out i needed a valve tool. i ordered one online from I&I sports, then decided heck with it and decided to make my own. (by the way, I&I sports does not reply well to e-mails. i asked them to cancel my order within hours of placing it, and it was on a weekend too... a few days after having the package at my house they e-mailed me back with instructions on canceling orders) I decided to go to the hardware store to find an allen wrench to make the valve tool out of, but the guy at the hardware store didnt have any allen wrenches (still dont understand that...) and i didnt want to drill out mine, so i looked for a metal rod of some kind... and found a bin of foot long nails. he looked at me strange when i dropped a single foot long nail on the counter, you know considering im a 16 year old kid dressed in all black with spikey hair. it took about half an hour of drilling and filing but i did end up making a nail into a valve tool and getting the valve out. it was fairly obvious that the leak was the reason the guy sold the cocker. the valve was a bit dented, the o-ring on the valve was ripped up and i doubt the valve had seen sunlight in the 8 years since its creation. a bit of filing and a new o-ring and the leak was fixed. then i just timed it and it was fine. i actually bought the cocker because the guy at my local shop said he had an old 99 pump kit laying around that he would give to me, but in the end he couldnt find it. i ended up playing with the cocker all day yesterday, 7 hours of play at the local field. the ref bet me that i would have my freestyle out after the first game, but i ended up using the cocker the whole day. despite, or perhaps because of, a few problems with the cocker, a jamming gravity feed hopper (my halo was too heavy for the elbow) and poor field paint it was one of my most enjoyable days of play. i didnt have threadlock for the cocking rod and the timing messed up to the point where it wouldnt recock, so i finished the game cocking it manually for each shot. after snap shooting someone in the goggles while manually cocking, i can see why pump play is still popular. plus i only shot half a case in 7 hours of play, as opposed to my normal case in around 4 hours.

the cocker actually has terrible efficiency though, possibly even worse than my mag or freestyle. i was thinking about drilling out the valve to increase the flow, which i know would allow me to lower the reg pressure, but im not sure if that would help the efficiency. what could i do, short of buying a new internals kit? i bought this cocker for its price, so i dont want to spend much.

also, i think i might want to add a gauge to the front block. how would i do that? theres a really small screw on the bottom of the block, which i take it isnt supposed to accept a gauge. so should i just drill out a hole on the bottom of the front block?

http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/26000/MVC-824F_rs.JPG
http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/26000/MVC-831F_rs.JPG
http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/26000/MVC-833F_rs.JPG
http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/26000/MVC-834F_rs.JPG

[MadPSIence]

wow... now that is a collectors item

[FireITup14]

Sweet, Cool gun. Good job on that valve tool too it looks very clean. I think the hole under the front block is a plug for a gauge. At least on mine it is. Maybe measure it or get a pic of under it?

[KapitalJin]

As for the guage under the pneumatic block, it is quite easily done. You can get a 90* attachment for a steel braided hose and use that to mount a guage directly under the pneumatics block. Drilling it out? Id rather get a tornado or 3:16 valve. Found those two to work the best. That is one sweet cocker, although it looks outdated.. haha

Very nice job on the valve tool. People spend daying ripping out their hair waiting for the tool to come in the mail! haha..

Here is a pic of my black magic. (sorry bad quality, didnt have a digi cam back then)

[Jaan]

also, i think i might want to add a gauge to the front block. how would i do that? theres a really small screw on the bottom of the block, which i take it isnt supposed to accept a gauge. so should i just drill out a hole on the bottom of the front block?

Damn, I thought I was good at filling and grinding. That's like, old school. Great job.

I suppose you could add a gauge to the bottom of the front block, it's really easy on the newer guns since the hole is the right size. It shouldn't be a big deal to drill and tap that hole. Here's my 'Cocker which is a mix of parts from the past 10 years ... notice the gauge under the Impulse low pressure reg? By the way, it really helped when I first set up the gun, the valve was a little loose and it shows the output of the verticle reg and valve, so I could tell right away I needed to tighten up the set screw that holds the valve in place. (PS click on the pic to see it in a better resolution)
<a href="http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/25000/Autococker-Web.jpg"> <img src="http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/25000/Autococker-Web_rs.jpg" width="800" height="391"> </img></a>

[minimag03]

I have to say that is a sweet cocker. A leak might be causing it to be an air hog. Hook up your tank and let it sit for an hour or two, then check and see if the tank has the same amoung of pressure as before. A retime might help too.

[slade]

As for the guage under the pneumatic block, it is quite easily done. You can get a 90* attachment for a steel braided hose and use that to mount a guage directly under the pneumatics block. Drilling it out? Id rather get a tornado or 3:16 valve. Found those two to work the best. That is one sweet cocker, although it looks outdated.. haha
well the gauge... ok here ill take a picture, look:

http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/26000/MVC-835F_rs.JPG

that definately isnt a 1/8 female NPT fitting, so a gauge wont exactly fit. so i suppose ill be drilling it out. i wanted to ask because i do not know anything about the air passages inside the front block so i do not know if i would have to drill in a specific place.

and yeah i heard the tornado and 3:16 are probably the best, but again, this is more of a side project and im not looking to spend too much money, which is also why i didnt replace the HPR. i was wondering if there was any way i could mod what i had to make it more efficient.

[KapitalJin]

3:16 is best for the less pricey range of valves. And I have never seen the bottom of the hole that small before... Ive worked with only cockers from 01 and up.. haha

You should be able to tap it with some good bit of elbow grease. Id say get a new block, or if you want, get a new pneumatics kit. I would probably keep it original if your going to use it as a antique type gun... haha.

If you have the money, I would go right ahead into the valve, trigger, pneumatics, and barrel. The Dye hinges work great, dye or palmers pneumatics, Dye boomstick, and the 3:16. Then there is the bolt which is optional. I was never fond of the delrin stuff. Always liked the ANS quick pull bolts.

Because this is your side project, the 3:16 valve should be enough. As for the guage, I would reconsider it being that this isnt going to be your main gun. It looks very nice but it really isnt nessesary unless you want to check the prssure of your gun.

[minimag03]

Like I mentioned before, just try and retime it. A cocker and use a crap load of air if it isn't timed right. I'd buy a new adjustable HPR before a vavle.

[Jaan]

You should be able to tap it with some good bit of elbow grease. Id say get a new block, or if you want, get a new pneumatics kit. I would probably keep it original if your going to use it as a antique type gun... haha.
Taping aluminum is easy. Just do it a little at a time ... one turn then a quarter turn counterclockwise to break the chips out. Oh yeah, lube too ... but you should already know that (c:

A "new" block won't fit. 2k and up blocks took a bigger front screw as well as a bigger hole for the air passage from the screw to the LPR. That's what that hole with the plug in it is all about, to make that passageway.

You know, those old guns shot well. If you get it all timed right with no leaks it should be fine. It's fun to upgrade, but half the time it won't do anything you notice. 300 fps is 300 fps and a smooth barrel is a smooth barrel.

[minimag03]

Wow, I just realized that it is a left feed. The whole on the bottom on the front block looks like it is would fit a barb off the 3-way. I dunno why they would have put it there though.

[Spaceman613]

Dont retap it, you dont NEED a gauge on the gun.

if you want to make it more efficient, see what valve is in it, then play with the springs first. Usually that is better than just swapping valves. Most aftermarket valves dont help at all.

Besides, a gun as old as this one wont liek the low pressure valves, it wants medium pressure, 350-450psi would be ideal for a cocker of that vintage. I would go with a stock 99 cocker valve or a palmer valve. PPS makes amazing stuff.

If it was me... I would make my own valve, but that becuase I am never happy with anything I buy.

[VFX_Fenix]

I'll echo what's been said and definately sudgest simply changing the spings on the valve/hammer for better efficiency. Higher Flow and Lower pressure won't work too well on the pre-2000 Cockers for no other reason than they start to starve if you run them below 300-ish psi in my experience. Personally my 99 RF Cocker runs at right around 400psi and it's happy as a clam there. If I were to play around with the springs a little more I'm sure I could get it to go down but right now I have a blue spring on both the valve and the hammer.

Madman kits are pretty cheap and the springs will probably be the first thing you'll want to change anyway since they probably haven't seen the light of day since before you took that gun apart too.

[Jaan]

Wow, I just realized that it is a left feed. The whole on the bottom on the front block looks like it is would fit a barb off the 3-way. I dunno why they would have put it there though.The ... hole ... is there because the gas has to go from the banjo bolt to the low pressure reg. To do that you have to drill a passageway and that's the only way to do it easily. Drill it, then plug the end.

Dont retap it, you dont NEED a gauge on the gun.True, but it would tell him two things, what the output pressure of his vertical reg is (and if it recharges fast enough), and if there is a valve problem. Maybe once he gets used to tuning the gun up and is more familiar with it he'll want it.

I'll echo what's been said and definately sudgest simply changing the spings on the valve/hammer for better efficiency. Higher Flow and Lower pressure won't work too well on the pre-2000 Cockers for no other reason than they start to starve if you run them below 300-ish psi in my experience.You can make them low pressure by replacing the banjo bolt with a reservoir chamber ... one of those phalic looking things. Like this one:

http://www.pbn5.com/paintball/paintball.mvc/p=1001652

I run my old 'Cocker on low pressure and it works fine but I only did it because I had the extra parts laying around.

[BigEvil]

WOW nice find. I used to love those old Bob Long cockers. I remember that they were the ones that usually worked. Back in the day that was an accomplishment itself :-)

Im sure that vert regulator is an add on. I doubt it came with anything like that stock, especially a wgp one. I do remember they used to come with J&J barrels though.....

[slade]

True, but it would tell him two things, what the output pressure of his vertical reg is (and if it recharges fast enough), and if there is a valve problem. Maybe once he gets used to tuning the gun up and is more familiar with it he'll want it.
how would the gauge tell you if you have a valve problem?

ill look to see if there is a leak, and try re-timing it. what in the timing would give it poor efficiency? and what spring kit would be the best in regards to efficiency? (for a low price)

minimag - i thought about a new HPR, but i dont really want to spend the money. plus that would be sort of pointless to buy a new HPR when i havent installed a gauge yet.

also what 3-way do i have? im guessing its the bomb, considering its always leaking... if i have the LPR too high, the trigger wont return; too low, and the 3-way leaks non-stop.

oh yeah, and its an Ironmen autococker and says on the frame "used by Team Ironmen". Is it actually a marker used by the team, or just a private label autococker, like a dynasty shocker, russian legion timmy, naughty dogs freestyle, etc.?

thanks everyone.

oh, and the reason im looking for better efficiency is, well, because my two other guns are a mag and a freestyle. id like a gun where i wont have to fill the tank after each game.

[Jaan]

how would the gauge tell you if you have a valve problem?

ill look to see if there is a leak, and try re-timing it. what in the timing would give it poor efficiency? and what spring kit would be the best in regards to efficiency? (for a low price)Well, the gauge gives you an indication of what's happening to the air as it's comming into the gun and going through the valve. If the valve is sticking, or as it happened to me before, it's come loose, you'll see that the air pressure isn't going back up quickly enough after the shot is fired. It looks cool too.

As far as the springs go you just buy a pack with different ones with both a valve spring and hammer spring. Nelson based spring kit is what you want for that old gun ... the newer 'Cockers take a longer hammer spring. The springs will be color coded and they were usually Yellow, Green, Blue, and Red going from soft to heavy. Start with the lightest set and work your way up until you can get it to chrony. You can of course mix them but there's not a lot of times you'll need to do that.

I've always liked the information that Otters Customs have on thier web site concerning 'Cocker timing ...

http://www.ottersccustoms.com/ac-cockermain.html

I have a bunch of parts for those old 'Cockers, if you need anything or just need help contact me if you want. Good luck.

[FSU_Paintball]

Provided your valve is sealing properly, your best bet for efficiency is a new spring kit.