Discuss: Regulating Boards + More

[MadPSIence]

Alright... in the last 2 threads concerning "cheating" from points of view and the overall idea of enhanced firing I had an idea. It is below and reguards having a special process to eliminate marker-type cheats all the way down to the pro-am and maybe lower level. Please discuss.. please don't flame or bring up non-sense. If you do I will reply with the dancing banana and ignore your antics.

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My solution for cheating in pro-paintball.. relating to board changing and hot-buttons / bypassing etc..

So as not to kill the market for boards.. have PSP, NXL, NPPL or whatever.. contract companies that make boards for different guns. Before each season... have a team register their guns with the, NPPL for example, governing body. The NPPL would then go to say Tadao, Was, Tag etc.. and they would in turn produce boards for the different teams. The boards would be capped at True-Semi and 16bps (since some people can legally pull that for a half of a second mid burst) and have no options for bounce, no enhanced firing modes... then basically the teams would submit their dwell settings and after the boards are done they are certified and spec'd by NPPL and delivered to pro-teams before each event and collected immediately afterwards.

this may SOUND complicated and lengthy but it's not. it could be established in a single year. the time period for making and registering the boards could be as little as a month or 2 total. Why not make some use of the off-season?

the benefits of this method are:

1. It removes the possibility for a player to cheat in any manner relating to his/her marker
2. It does not damage the market for board makers... it gives them a whole new shared market.. or they could compete to be the one company to produce the liscenced boards.
3. The TYPE of gun does not have to change.

NOW

This is a solution to the pro and pro-am leagues problems with cheating. Reaching down the ladder to amateur and novice tourny players there needs to be something simpler. What I'm thinking is... BOOM... replica certified pro boards basically for all guns made for the pro's.. those contracted companies now have a HUGE opportunity to sell even more boards by replicating the boards made for the pro's and have them available to younger players and amatuers. Now even though there's no governing body to hold and distribute the boards before and after an event, and it would be ridiculous for a field to have to supply them..

I am confident that a locked board.. rather a board WITHOUT unlockable features or the capability of enhanced firing modes.. will suffice just fine as not many people have the ability to hack that

From there.. it would simply be field owner / referee responsibility to check the board to make sure it is of the proper designation. Keep in mind this is just for amateur tourny events that WISH to follow the same rules as the pro's.. which i recommend to eliminate cheatin

If not desired, or if it's just a smalltown field or whatever... by all means don't make these boards mandatory... just have your own rules. Don't fix it if it isn't broken right?

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Short version for visitors from PBN with ADHD: cheating can't be stopped.. have governing body regulate boards through a process.. kill enhanced firing.

[Lohman446]

Why not hand out "restrictor plate" 10BPS hoppers (of any design - I prefer force feed for more reasons than speed) made just for that. Maybe at each chrono station and let anyone ramp to a hopper set limit...

[Maggot6]

That'd be simple, just handing out revvies (although need to find a force feed design..)

[VFX_Fenix]

Well I have to admit that sounds pretty good and isn't entirely unreasonable. League Specific boards are a good idea, imo anyway. Without knowing the infrasturcture of the NPPL/PSP leagues it may proove to be a logistic nightmare to have hundreds of boards kicking around in trucks that the NPPL must haul accross the country, however if infrustructure is put into place to support this move specifically then there will still be some problems (initially anyway) but nothing serious enough to curb it. That is unless somewhere along the time the boards are lost/destroyed in transit or through impropper install and removal.

The pre-game check-in stuff would take longer since people would be removing and installing grip panels to display their boards to the refs, either that or clear grips would become sort of a "must have" item and the boards themselves would need to be some odd color that boards aren't commonly avalible in. Also counterfit boards would become something that would need to be addressed, either through some sort of hologram on the board that won't transfer (like the "void" peel away stickers) or some form of other security feature.

I would say that stiff penalties should be put into place for any team (not the individuals) with a member caught using a counterfit or non-sanctioned board, i.e. forfiture of all points earned at the event, disqualification from X future events, loss of all points earned for the season, or a suspension placed on the team for not less than one full season of tournament play or more. With the card systems in place for the NPPL and PSP it would make tracking these players relatively easy and so easily enforced.

The problem with penalties is that no one expects to get caught, if they did they wouldn't have done it in the first place, so penalties aren't exactly a deterent, simply punishment for failure to comply.

I also feel that punishing the entire team, not just the offenders, would help to develope an atmosphere where teams will govern themselves. Again, this would most likely start to be evident AFTER a few teams have been nailed for cheating, but the environment would appear eventually.

So who wants to write a letter to the editor?

[VFX_Fenix]

That'd be simple, just handing out revvies (although need to find a force feed design..)

It's called an Evolution II with a Y-Board turned down all the way.

EDIT - Also consider that loaders fed at different rates (generaly significantly slower) on gun vs. drop tests. If they were to impliment this rule also prepair to see the return of the High Rise. However this doesn't answer the problem of illegal firing modes, only ROF which will vary from gun to gun.

[BD_Paintball]

or you can just make the punishment harsher so people will not cheat as much. yes some people will still try it but when they get cought you will not see them for a long time.


30 second rule???

[hitech]

The first problem is that I can still EASILY make a “board” that will cheat (fire extra shots) for an eMag given your example. And the initial investment is only about $200 and some time. The entire marker would be “stock”. I could probably do something with a micro switch marker also, but it wouldn’t be stock. It would still work with the “regulated” board. And it would be hard to detect.

The second problem is that those running the tournaments don’t care enough to stop cheating. Hell, they don’t even enforce the rules they currently have.

[VFX_Fenix]

or you can just make the punishment harsher so people will not cheat as much. yes some people will still try it but when they get cought you will not see them for a long time.


30 second rule???

True, however in all other sports these penalties effect the entire team, in paintball they largely effect the individuals. If you're caught with a cheating gun, you sit out and your team has a sub for you. In Hockey, you get sent to the box, your team plays short handed. In football, you give up yards, basketball you give up points, soccer you give up posession of the ball and possibly points, etc. Offenses of the individuals hurt the entire team.

[MadPSIence]

The first problem is that I can still EASILY make a “board” that will cheat (fire extra shots) for an eMag given your example. And the initial investment is only about $200 and some time. The entire marker would be “stock”. I could probably do something with a micro switch marker also, but it wouldn’t be stock. It would still work with the “regulated” board. And it would be hard to detect.

The second problem is that those running the tournaments don’t care enough to stop cheating. Hell, they don’t even enforce the rules they currently have.

you're right.. at that low of a level there comes the vulnerability of that. keep in mind my solution is strongest at the Pro-Level and weakens on the way down.

[MadPSIence]

It's called an Evolution II with a Y-Board turned down all the way.

EDIT - Also consider that loaders fed at different rates (generaly significantly slower) on gun vs. drop tests. If they were to impliment this rule also prepair to see the return of the High Rise. However this doesn't answer the problem of illegal firing modes, only ROF which will vary from gun to gun.

I have to say that is unreasonable because unlike regulating boards... regulating hoppers will FORCE a player to use ergonomics they may not find comfortable to their style, position or playing profile. This is unnecessary because ergonomics should be a freedom for all players. Changing a board doesn't change the above at all really.

[MadPSIence]

True, however in all other sports these penalties effect the entire team, in paintball they largely effect the individuals. If you're caught with a cheating gun, you sit out and your team has a sub for you. In Hockey, you get sent to the box, your team plays short handed. In football, you give up yards, basketball you give up points, soccer you give up posession of the ball and possibly points, etc. Offenses of the individuals hurt the entire team.

Punishment can't be applied if the cheater isn't caught. I bet if 100% of pro's cheated, 10-20% would get caught. If they can't cheat in the first place the problem is solved.

[KapitalJin]

My fantasy like way of stopping cheating.. (ok bad sentence structure but I dont know how else to put it.) Come up with something that mounts directly on the muzzle of the barrel. Something very small and light. Nothing popping up. Something just like an "eye." At the end of every match. It will record the highest fps and bps. After every match, it will be scanned over something... lets call it "X" taking only 5 seconds to swipe over this machine and give you the results. Reffs and judges will then take it from there after they see the records.

Alright so it is an idea... Just wanted to share my idea about preventing cheating. Might actualy be too complicated but to prevent cheating, I think going to the next level is worth it. After all, some of the teams worked their arses off getting to where they are only to be cheated off of.

[BD_Paintball]

they should just un-cap everything and allow all modes of fire and let the "pros" that want to play shoot eachother until they cant take it any more. problem solved. :ninja:

but serious i agree with MadPSIence but i dont think it will ever happen.

[VFX_Fenix]

The first problem is that I can still EASILY make a “board” that will cheat (fire extra shots) for an eMag given your example. And the initial investment is only about $200 and some time. The entire marker would be “stock”. I could probably do something with a micro switch marker also, but it wouldn’t be stock. It would still work with the “regulated” board. And it would be hard to detect.

The second problem is that those running the tournaments don’t care enough to stop cheating. Hell, they don’t even enforce the rules they currently have.

What's being proposed is companies make and submit these boards to the central Tournament body, the body then distributes the boards at the event and collects them again when the event is over. If you're proposing to make a counterfit board then there are security issues that you'd hopefully have to overcome (like in currency). If you're proposing to reprogram a board on the site, that might be looked at kinda funny though I'm sure you could do it. Hopefully when the boards are collected at the end of the event their software is inspected to see if they've been tampered with.

Also I think the lack of enthusiasm for enforcing the rules seen at events may stem from the inability to necesarrily do anything about it. Consider that you're very interested in trying to keep things cheat free but no matter how hard you try someone always comes out with something else which is increasingly harder and harder to detect in the few momments you have to inspect a gun. This is very much the feeling that I get when I listen to the Captain's meetings at local events. It isn't that they don't want to enforce the rules, its more like they can't so they don't even bother to try.

[hitech]

What's being proposed is companies make and submit these boards to the central Tournament body, the body then distributes the boards at the event and collects them again when the event is over. If you're proposing to make a counterfit board then there are security issues that you'd hopefully have to overcome (like in currency). If you're proposing to reprogram a board on the site, that might be looked at kinda funny though I'm sure you could do it. Hopefully when the boards are collected at the end of the event their software is inspected to see if they've been tampered with.



NO. In the case of the eMag, the marker would NOT be tampered with at all. ALL the cheating hardware would be external to the marker. In the case of the micro switch marker, there would be "tampering" with the marker, but NOT with the board. The board would not be tampered with in any way.

[VFX_Fenix]

Punishment can't be applied if the cheater isn't caught. I bet if 100% of pro's cheated, 10-20% would get caught. If they can't cheat in the first place the problem is solved.

This is true as well, I was supporting my argument for why penalties should be applied to the entire team as opposed to individuals, as BD_Paintball had sudgested, for board violations at events, be they shooting counterfit boards, non-sanctioned boards or hacked boards which are sanctioned.

[VFX_Fenix]

NO. In the case of the eMag, the marker would NOT be tampered with at all. ALL the cheating hardware would be external to the marker. In the case of the micro switch marker, there would be "tampering" with the marker, but NOT with the board. The board would not be tampered with in any way.

However the firing sequence is ultimately controlled by either the main PCB or a daughter board. If the main PCB, as MadPSIence is sudgesting, is limited to a certain firing mode and RoF then the only way you could cheat is either by installing a daughter board, which can be checked for, bypassing the PCB (also something that can be checked for) or going off of switch noise (debounce).

[yakitori]

why go through a lot of trouble by restricting guns electronically through the boards. Like others said, just make ppl use revies. No forcefed or loaders that can feed past 15bps.

And MOST of us dont play NPPL....so what good will it do to restrict NPPL guns when you dont even play there. Do you play in the NPPL? What do you care about restricting pros guns when you dont even play them?

Get over it.

[hitech]

However the firing sequence is ultimately controlled by either the main PCB or a daughter board. If the main PCB, as MadPSIence is sudgesting, is limited to a certain firing mode and RoF then the only way you could cheat is either by installing a daughter board, which can be checked for, bypassing the PCB (also something that can be checked for) or going off of switch noise (debounce).

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1511127#post1511127

[hitech]

Get over it.

Yes, you should...

[yakitori]

Yes, you should...

great reply.... :clap:

[VFX_Fenix]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1511127#post1511127

So you're proposing what... a vibrator in your glove? Obvoiously not something that mundane. An electromagnet to trip the HES sensor when activated in your glove? Elaborate please, I'm curious. Would this work on Opto trigger systems?

[hitech]

So you're proposing what... a vibrator in your glove? Obvoiously not something that mundane. An electromagnet to trip the HES sensor when activated in your glove? Elaborate please, I'm curious. Would this work on Opto trigger systems?


At the bottom of that page:


While I agree that they need to start somewhere, trying to check the code and circuit board in the marker isn't a good start. For a few hundred dollars and a couple of weekends work I could make a cheater board that COULDN'T be detected by examining the marker. All it needs to do is produce a magnetic pulse (a simple thing to do) near the HES. Control it with a basic stamp, vary the time between the pulse and you have a cheater board that is not contained within the marker. No radio frequency necessary. ;)

All current cheats have been software because it's easy to do and no one is checking anything.

...

BTW, I am NOT some electronic engineering genius. I took two years of HIGH SCHOOL electronics and I know how to write business application software (not embedded circuit software). The cheat I am talking about requires basic electronic and programming knowledge. Almost everything you need to know can be found at www.warpig.com . :D

That would only work on a HES triggered marker. However, all (most?) markers us a simple two wire "input" from a trigger switch. "Short" those wires and the marker thinks the trigger was pulled. It's not hard to hide something that taps into those wires and provides the trigger pull "single". And we haven't even gotten into complicated cheats...

:cheers:

[VFX_Fenix]

Okay, I imagined that's along the lines that you were sudgesting with the magnetic pulses. I've seen something like that done with the Bushmaster where the trigger was replaced with a reed switch and triggered trough a magnet in the glove.

[hitech]

Read through that thread. There are even simplier "glove" cheats.

:cheers:

[minimag03]

I think it this whole thing could be made easier buy making boards with 2 modes:
Semi (capped & uncapped)
Ramping (10-16 bps)
Then all the fancy debounce settings and the rest of that stuff.

If all board makers did that, then you couldn't cheat. There is no need to make NPPL boards if you make all your boards like mentioned above. All the refs have to do is see if the board was made after a certain date.

Ofcourse we all know Tadao, TAG, and now WAS will not be giving up all the other features because it would hurt business.

[yakitori]

well, as of now WAS only makes ramping firmware for 3 guns. The pimp, alien, and I can remember the other one. Owner Jim Drew was against ramping and fa features and would not make it available because of liability issues. Its funny how WAS factory team used it though and it wasnt available to the public.

now that they are sold (kinda), they are supposed to be releasing PSP/NXL firing modes for all their boards. Too late JD, I already bought Tadao and sold the WAS.

And you are right, it will hurt business.

[MadPSIence]

so does anyone have any comments on the actual topic?