Mags are NOT "high end" markers

[hockeynoodles020]

Ok, before all of you hate me. I want to clarify i am defending mags saying "yes they are high end." I am HockeyNoodles020 and a guy i know from the net(WHATSUPDOG) suddenly turned on me after i told him mags efficency. Here is a convorsation we had...

(18:32:29) WHATSUPDOG58: lol buy a new designs bolt kit for it
(18:32:41) WHATSUPDOG58: n u can shoot a whole tnk outa a 68/45
(18:33:11) hockeynoodles020: LOL, there rnt kits like that for mags
(18:33:24) WHATSUPDOG58: lol
(18:33:45) WHATSUPDOG58: u shuld protest
(18:33:45) WHATSUPDOG58: lol im soo used 2 high end guns
(18:33:45) WHATSUPDOG58: lol
(18:33:47) WHATSUPDOG58: tht i have no clue about mags
(18:34:18) hockeynoodles020: wtf is that supposed to mean
(18:34:24) hockeynoodles020: mags r high end
(18:34:35) WHATSUPDOG58: lol on a woods ball field maybe
(18:34:57) WHATSUPDOG58: lol u take tht thing on a speed ball field n they will laugh u off the field
(18:35:00) hockeynoodles020: just because they dont make ****in cheater boards for mags doesnt mean there not high end
(18:35:10) WHATSUPDOG58: dude
(18:35:18) WHATSUPDOG58: a new designs bolt kit isnt a board
(18:35:21) WHATSUPDOG58: its a bolt
(18:35:41) hockeynoodles020: i know its not
(18:35:53) WHATSUPDOG58: and lol on a woods ball field maybe lol u take tht thing on a speed ball field n they will laugh u off the field
(18:36:04) WHATSUPDOG58: im nto sayin its not high end for wut u play
(18:36:15) hockeynoodles020: have u ever shot a mag?
(18:36:20) WHATSUPDOG58: but for me i wuld get laughed off the field if i tried 2 shoot it
(18:36:39) WHATSUPDOG58: nope lol never even touched 1
(18:36:46) hockeynoodles020: exactly
(18:36:53) WHATSUPDOG58: but i betcah ive touched more then u have lol
(18:37:13) WHATSUPDOG58: ever shot a dm5, a proto, a alias, a empire timmy, a 05 speed,
(18:37:15) hockeynoodles020: u dont know **** about them, so dont even say stuff like that
(18:37:19) WHATSUPDOG58: a vision shocker?
(18:37:26) WHATSUPDOG58: a e2 auto coker
(18:37:36) WHATSUPDOG58: dude im tellin u
(18:37:51) hockeynoodles020: wtf does that have to do with a mag not being "high-end
(18:38:35) WHATSUPDOG58: tht maybe its highend for woods im not sayin n ethin bad about it but wut i am sayin .. wich is the truth "if i wlked onto a speed ball field wilth it i wuld get laughed off the field
(18:38:40) WHATSUPDOG58: im not sayin its not high end
(18:38:49) WHATSUPDOG58: im sayin its not high end in the world of speed ball
(18:39:06) WHATSUPDOG58: so no i have never shot 1 no offense im not lookin forward 2 it
(18:39:26) WHATSUPDOG58: but i guess its high end in woods ball
(18:39:38) WHATSUPDOG58: so yeah its high end in woods
(18:39:41) WHATSUPDOG58: not in speed
(18:39:47) hockeynoodles020: whatever dude
(18:39:56) WHATSUPDOG58: im not sayin n e thin bad about it
(18:40:05) WHATSUPDOG58: im jus sayin..

i was so mad that i didnt really put up much of a fight. This kid came to me about 5 months ago asking me what a HPA tank was, and has been asking me questions on other stuff since. Yet, he has shot more "high-end" markers, so that means he knows what is "high-end" right? I was both laughing at this kids lack of common sense, and angry that he was being so dumb.

[E==Mag MAN]

stop humping agd's leg and get over it, your mag is not as high end as other markers now.

Peace
Thomas

[68magOwner]

i dont concider mags high end either

[KapitalJin]

I dont consider ANY markers high end. The only thing that makes a marker "high end" is the player. I would say that the best player can make any marker look high end.

[Lurker27]

I'd shoot an ion over most e-mags.

that's how i think of guns these days, and where i draw the high-end line. Does it outperform that ion?

[can'tthink of1]

I think mags are high end, well, the nice ones that is. Just because a really nice mech mag can't rip like crazy, doesn't mean it's not a quality product and can shoot nice. Emags can be high end imo too, with ULE and such, and X-mags are high end for sure.

[personman]

I'd say a nice mag is mid-high end. In my opinion it tops every other marker out there, but I seriously doubt anyone else would share the same opinion. I see mags as almost perfect. In my opinion the only thing they lack is efficiency but that doesnt really bother me.

To each his own, and if he doesnt think mags are high end then leave him alone. Everyone has their own opinions.

[t33kyboy]

Its high-end in the mechanical area I guess...

[RingOfScale]

yeah, what t33k said ... they seem to be awsome mech markers, but from what i gather (granted havnt ever owned an e-mag) in the electro catagory, there is plenty more out there that is alot more high end.

and to the guy who said "a good player can make any marker high end"
dont start that again.
give Dynasty some $20 walmart guns and they wont be able to take down any pro team shooting DMCs or G7s or A-Bombs, etc.

-Ring

[RingOfScale]

lol, 10 views and 9 replies after this post ... damn good % for internet forums.

Yes, i know i should have just edited the post i have above this to add in a comment of this sort, but i'm t3h lazy.

-RinG

[hockeynoodles020]

lol, 10 views and 9 replies after this post ... damn good % for internet forums.


Yes, i know i should have just edited the post i have above this to add in a comment of this sort, but i'm t3h lazy.

-RinG

i wish it was like that on my sales thread :rolleyes: , but 9 outa 10 aint to shabby :headbang:

[Teamslayer76]

Dude your friend is right. Mags arent "up to spec" with todays guns that shoot faster than you can even possibly move your fingers. Its crazy. And I've got nothing against them but in the super-gun speedball realm mags are not to high up there, unless its a e-mag. But mech mags or any mech gun will be out gunned in regulation.

As for the mechanical world yes, its one if the not the best mechanical marker availble to the general public without years of waitingn or seriously custom work.

Sorry if i start a flame war but it's true mag in speed ball are dead right at this very moment, to the general public. Exepct for the special lucky Devl/Pred people.

[hockeynoodles020]

Well, theres a reason i posted this thread. That reason was to see what other people thought, so its working, and i highly doubt you will start a flame. :dance:

[SpecialBlend2786]

I'd say, like others have, that mags are high end mechanical markers.

I consider emags to be mid-end electros, however that new Predator board might change that huh... :ninja:

[can'tthink of1]

This brings up the question

"Are pumps high end markers?"

They can't shoot fast, but they are light and perfrom well, and are often great quality. (Phantom, carter, etc)

High end for me just means its a quality product that performs (shoots accurately) that is made with good tolerances. For me, for something to be High end it doesn't have to shoot fast.

My opinion on the whole thing.

[SpecialBlend2786]

This brings up the question

"Are pumps high end markers?"

They can't shoot fast, but they are light and perfrom well, and are often great quality. (Phantom, carter, etc)

High end for me just means its a quality product that performs (shoots accurately) that is made with good tolerances. For me, for something to be High end it doesn't have to shoot fast.

My opinion on the whole thing.

I think there are High end pumps and low end pumps. CCM pumps and Carters would be among the high end, and tigersharks on the lowend.

I think high end takes into account many things, including price, quality, and performance.

[Jack & Coke]

It's all relative...

The level for "high end" is always moving.

If you don't keep up with competition, you fall behind.

13 years ago, my Intel 386 was a $2,800 high end computer...

12 years ago my 46" rear projection TV was a $4,000 high end entertainment center...

8 years ago my first VL revy was a high end hopper...

These things all function just as they did when I first bought them. But they all can't stand up to the NEW high end stuff.

IMO, mags are not LOW END, but they are not HIGH END either (anymore).

They're more of a MED-HIGH END gun.

IMO, HIGH END must excel in:


advanced, efficient and logical engineering design (something engineers can appreciate)
great speed (high ROF)
easy to obtain high ROF (great board - electronics/programming)
A.C.E. (reliable logic)
great/reliable trigger system (no worry of hysteresis)
great air efficiency (ability to go deep into the tank)
top quality materials and workmanship
great balance, handling, aesthetics


You are welcome to disagree, these are just my opinions... :cheers:

[SpecialBlend2786]

After reading J&C's post, I am forced to redefine my definition.

I think high end takes into account many things, including price, quality, technological advancement, innovation, and performance. :cheers:

[RingOfScale]

Instead of trying to compare mags to the best performing guns currently, i think we need to have different catagories.

High end within pumps
High end within mechanical guns
High end within electronic guns

It is almost impossible to compare across catagory, because they are totaly different things. Generally people who buy from each catagory are looking for something entirely different. No one would ever buy a mag to compete in the NXL, but few people would buy an Ego to be a scenario gun. Ego > tac 1 in tournament, tac 1 > ego in scenario. Which is more high-end? Depends on what u want it for... both are built very well. Thats why we need different catagories.

[RRfireblade]

I think there's confusion among terms here,

"High End" is more of a reference to quality of construction, as some have mentioned, "High End Pump Gun" or anything other similar reference with a performance criteria based on the intended use of the item. For instance I was in the electronics business and sold "high end" electronics. This included everything from plasma displays to tube amplifiers, yeah I said tube amplifiers and other tube based electronics.I've sold tube based Audio and Theater systems that cost more than some people homes,no question High End. ;)

So, what are we really talking about?

Are Mags high end? Sure, I would say so based on quality of contruction,materials and performanced based on there intended design. (Tourny scene circa 1990, Rec ball today)

But...

Are they State of the Art? Cutting Edge? Obviously not.

Some people consider 'High End' to mean both things and perhaps they should if your speaking 'On the higher end of what's currently available', that would imply max performance,most advanced design and electroincs (electronics being standard on todays markers) as they complete the entire package.

The bottom line is it's primarily a perception based question and typically quanitfied by each persons individual frame of references.

[warbeak2099]

I don't get it. Mags can compete. Can a mech mag compete against high-end electros? No, no mech can... yet.

Can an electro mag compete with other electros? Yea of course. They cycle fast and as long as the board is capped high enough they can shoot just as fast as other guns.

[Muzikman]

I have not read the entire thread yet, but my question is what makes a gun "high end"?

Build Quality?
Efficiency?
Rate of Fire?
Looks? (milling, different ano, etc)?
Ease of use?
Number of after market parts?
Number of ball chops?
Number of barrel breaks?
Number of firing modes?
PRICE?

I am not saying the mag fits in many of these categories, I am just trying to figure out what makes a gun high end.

[RRfireblade]

Compete? Sure but that's not the quesion that was asked.

From a technological stand point are they at the 'High end' of what's currently available on the market?

[Maggot6]

I think that mech mags are pretty well the best mech markers out there. Speed, reliability, basically no maintanence(sp, gottal learn how to spell that) and if you do things right, a pretty light trigger pull. And if you do things even more right, an AMAZING trigger pull...
What I ask is, what seperates a timmy/angel/XXX marker from any high end AGD marker (Devil / Xmag) Speed- both are WAY to fast, Reliability - Well, user influenced, but generally mags are less maintanence. Weight- All seem to be Under 3 pounds, what else do you want? Accuracy- Both are the same. Boards/special features- well, TAG with the predator board, rrfireblades, and MECH AND HYBRID...Angels/timmy's/XXX's have more boards, but what makes them different from the TAG predator boards? Devils have Eyes, same with xmags(see The deviled Xmag as well) Cosmetics? Well, mags have at least 5 different bodies, and then you can make your own, Angels/timmy's/XXX's probably do as well,...Efficiency- Mags are quite good in efficiency, up until it hits the 800 psi point. So I guess mags lose there..

I just don't understand what makes emag's less up to date and high tech than everything else.

[UTDragun]

http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/3599/ <--- highest mech marker ive seen

I would say some mags are tourney specified "high end"
Pnuemag
DevilMag
e/x mag
e/x w/ pred.

[BigEvil]

Uh, yeah.. had to go poke the hornets nest.......



Here are my thoughts.

Just because Mags are not the flavor of the month does not mean they are not high end.

They are NOT state of the art. Eventhough with the new predator board, I think that is a debatable statement.

An emag with a predator that ran off of a 9v w/break beams would have to be considered state of the art. (Devilmag?)

Mechanically, they are by all means STATE OF THE ART.

Electronically and software wise, they are not.

But if you consider quality of construction, relyability, and performance, they are definately high end.

The stock emag boards are capped at 20bps. With a level 10, you do not break balls. Can any other gun capable of 20pbs fire w/o breaking paint with no eye system?

[Lohman446]

Uh, yeah.. had to go poke the hornets nest.......



Here are my thoughts.

Just because Mags are not the flavor of the month does not mean they are not high end.

They are NOT state of the art. Eventhough with the new predator board, I think that is a debatable statement.

An emag with a predator that ran off of a 9v w/break beams would have to be considered state of the art. (Devilmag?)

Mechanically, they are by all means STATE OF THE ART.

Electronically and software wise, they are not.

But if you consider quality of construction, relyability, and performance, they are definately high end.

The stock emag boards are capped at 20bps. With a level 10, you do not break balls. Can any other gun capable of 20pbs fire w/o breaking paint with no eye system?

I would argue, even though I love the simple mechanics of the mag, that the spring return (as opposed to air return of an Ion or Freestyle) makes it not state of the art. The advantages of air return (where the force can be cut off) may include lower operating pressure (no spring to overcome) and more efficiency because of it.

[Jack & Coke]

I think high end takes into account many things, including price, quality, technological advancement, innovation, and performance. :cheers:

Good summary.





...I think there's confusion among terms here...
...Are Mags high end? Sure, I would say so based on quality of contruction,materials and performanced based on their intended design...
...Are they State of the Art? Cutting Edge? Obviously not. Some people consider 'High End' to mean both things and perhaps they should if your speaking 'On the higher end of what's currently available', that would imply max performance, most advanced design and electroincs (electronics being standard on todays markers) as they complete the entire package.




Excellent points!

I agree.

As a mech class marker, then YES the mag is "HIGH END".

However, as a "state-of-the-art" HIGH END electro, then NO the mag is no longer "HIGH END".


I would argue, even though I love the simple mechanics of the mag, that the spring return (as opposed to air return of an Ion or Freestyle) makes it not state of the art. The advantages of air return (where the force can be cut off) may include lower operating pressure (no spring to overcome) and more efficiency because of it.

Another good post! Wow you guys are on it today! :cheers:

[slade]

"high end" and "low end" are relative placements on the spectrum of products on the market. thus there could be high and low end pumps, mechanical markers, or electros. an x-valved uled mag would be high end mechanical. the classic would be low or mid end mechanical. when it came out, there were no better markers on the market, so it would have been high end mechanical then. however since then better markers have come out, so it is now low or mid. a phantom or carter would be a high end pump, and... well i guess you guys can fill in the rest.

[ultralight]

I would argue, even though I love the simple mechanics of the mag, that the spring return (as opposed to air return of an Ion or Freestyle) makes it not state of the art. The advantages of air return (where the force can be cut off) may include lower operating pressure (no spring to overcome) and more efficiency because of it.

in a spring return system you aren't really overcoming the spring, you are storing that energy in the spring until the end of the cycle, the energy has to come from somewhere. if you aren't using the air to push the spring then you are using it to move the bolt back in the absence of that spring. this has come up in several other threads (mostly in the tech forum).

to me air efficiency is how many shots you get per tank. i seem to remember the shockers (spool valve- air return) needing a bit of a tune up to fix high gas consumption.

as far as "high end" goes, i believe the term originally just meant price.
i personally include price, quality of materials, fit and finish, and performance. firing speed is, in my opinion, a small part of performance. mainly because it is a relatively subjective topic. there are high end pumps, pistols, cockers, and custom markers that can't fire all that fast but what makes them high end is the quality of their construction and the way that they perform in their given arenas.

i think that, in general, people in this sport have become obcessed with speed to the point where they feel that that is the most important feature. this is a big part of the reason that we see kids with no talent or skill using ions and wraths and intimidators and matrixes talking about how great they are at paintball simply because they can shoot fast.

[MonsterMag]

I'd shoot an ion over most e-mags.

that's how i think of guns these days, and where i draw the high-end line. Does it outperform that ion?
Have you ever shot a well tuned emag? They ripp if you know how to use them. I have been acused of ramping when I was using emode. :spit_take So a $600 marker that will last a few life times or a marker made of composite plastic and cheap aluminum.
I consider anything over $500 a high end marker , dont listen to your friends.

Also if you look here (http://www.pbreview.com/products/cat/21/) you notice how you are in the "high end mech guns" what markers do you see? Mags

and here (http://www.pbreview.com/products/cat/19/) The Emag

[Lohman446]

I may be wrong here, but it would seem to me that if you can turn off the air that holds the bolt back (in essence turning off the spring) thats less resistance the bolt coming forward has to overcome. Then you turn off the air behind the bolt and put air in front of it to move it back with minimal resistance...

[slade]

in a spring return system you aren't really overcoming the spring, you are storing that energy in the spring until the end of the cycle, the energy has to come from somewhere. if you aren't using the air to push the spring then you are using it to move the bolt back in the absence of that spring. this has come up in several other threads (mostly in the tech forum).
in a spring return, you use high pressure to blow forward and overcome the spring, and the spring to return. in electropneumatic, you use medium pressure to blow forward and low pressure for the return. in theory, that means that the air used for each shot may be somewhat equal, but with the electropneumatic one, you can shoot farther into the tank. that being said, my mag, which shoots down to 800 psi, is about as efficient as my freestyle, which shoots down to maybe 400 psi (with drop off).

[BD_Paintball]

sorry hockeynoodles020 but your friend is right. mags are not "high end" any more. sad but true

[trains are bad]

I think high end, means fit, finish, and build quality. As such mags may be the most high end mass produced markers out there, period.

[Athius]

Mags arents high end or low end they are old.

[hitech]

I may be wrong here, but it would seem to me that if you can turn off the air that holds the bolt back (in essence turning off the spring) thats less resistance the bolt coming forward has to overcome. Then you turn off the air behind the bolt and put air in front of it to move it back with minimal resistance...

The air pressure in the 'mag is not used up to push against the spring. That same air pressure that compresses the spring also launches the paintball. What makes the 'mag less efficient than it could be (in a level 10 'mag) is that this pressure continues to vent after the paintball has left the barrel. Additionally, the lower peak pressure behind the paintball contributes to more air usage. And I have confirmed this with the man himself... :D

[Lohman446]

The air pressure in the 'mag is not used up to push against the spring. That same air pressure that compresses the spring also launches the paintball. What makes the 'mag less efficient than it could be (in a level 10 'mag) is that this pressure continues to vent after the paintball has left the barrel. Additionally, the lower peak pressure behind the paintball contributes to more air usage. And I have confirmed this with the man himself... :D


I vaguely see what you mean, the air would be there anyways. I have to go back and think that one through, because I still am having a problem accepting that no energy (air) is lost to the resistance of that spring... but I see where the idea that its already being used so it just has dual uses for the same energy comes from.

[BigEvil]

I would argue, even though I love the simple mechanics of the mag, that the spring return (as opposed to air return of an Ion or Freestyle) makes it not state of the art. The advantages of air return (where the force can be cut off) may include lower operating pressure (no spring to overcome) and more efficiency because of it.

I see your point...... but its debatable.

Using that logic, I could than say that a mag is technologically superior because it had an integrated regulator..... as opposed to having to have a seperate one externally.

Its all splitting hairs.

There really is no clear answer to this debate.

It is all preference.

[A-Tach-One]

in a spring return, you use high pressure to blow forward and overcome the spring, and the spring to return. in electropneumatic, you use medium pressure to blow forward and low pressure for the return. in theory, that means that the air used for each shot may be somewhat equal, but with the electropneumatic one, you can shoot farther into the tank. that being said, my mag, which shoots down to 800 psi, is about as efficient as my freestyle, which shoots down to maybe 400 psi (with drop off).


Agreed. Using the Freestyle and the Emag as an example, I have had the same experience with efficiency and they seem pretty equal if were going by shots from a tank.

[Boydster]

Its high-end in the mechanical area I guess...
Exactly

[Teamslayer76]

I will completly agree that mags are "high end" but "state of the art" and "up to tech" no.
Like RRfireblade said along with J&C Lohman and others it is build to the best it can be.
It's the highest end gun in that sense IMHO.

Then again we have the other thing that make it "highend" such as price we could all go into so much detail from X-Valves to LVL5 mags. The costs range from 2,000 to 200.

Also note that technology always changes constantly like the 386 example way back there always changing. What is high end today in 2 years is "crap".

So with all these points made I've come to the confusion that there are so many posiblities it's not even worth while classifing guns completly. And maybe to make it easy I'll just go by names, now if it sounds like crap it is, That's all I've got.

[r-unit]

if that guy says 'lol' one more time.............. :mad: :shooting:

[Pyroboy597]

i personally dont think mags can compete with "today's markers", and i can say that because i own a mag. Mags are becoming more of a collector gun. The efficiency and ease of use of a mag is not great when compared to high end mech cockers.

Also, Monster MAg, i would also shoot my ion over an e-mag, unless it was a predator e-mag. Mags have a ton of kick, where ions dont, and ion's are far cheaper with many upgrades that are made besides the ones made by smartparts.

[A-Tach-One]

For the ones who think the Mag is not high end, please explain why it is not, besides not being state of the art. How is something that is not State of the Art, mean that it is not high end anyway? Are restored classic custom vehicles low end? Thanks guys. :cheers:

[BD_Paintball]

For the ones who think the Mag is not high end, please explain why it is not, besides not being state of the art. How is something that is not State of the Art, mean that it is not high end anyway? Are restored classic custom vehicles low end? Thanks guys. :cheers:

they are not high end b/c they can not compete with the rof that true high end markers have. they are overpriced and they also weigh alot. when i think of a high end marker i think if weight, looks and performance. mags weigh alot, dont look that good and are not that fast( yes e-mags, x-mags and LEGAL mech mags are not that fast) with TONS of kick. shoot a high end timmy, DM5, EGO, or Speed and you will feel and notice a huge differenct. they are very good for the rec player or a player who playes in a few tournies but if you want to be serious and play lots of tournies then you need a high end gun to keep up and a mag will not do that.

edit: maybe the new Devil mag can b/c it has the Pred board in it.

[A-Tach-One]

they are not high end b/c they can not compete with the rof that true high end markers have. they are overpriced and they also weigh alot. when i think of a high end marker i think if weight, looks and performance. mags weigh alot, dont look that good and are not that fast( yes e-mags, x-mags and LEGAL mech mags are not that fast) with TONS of kick. shoot a high end timmy, DM5, EGO, or Speed and you will feel and notice a huge differenct. they are very good for the rec player or a player who playes in a few tournies but if you want to be serious and play lots of tournies then you need a high end gun to keep up and a mag will not do that.

edit: maybe the new Devil mag can b/c it has the Pred board in it.

Sounds like your talking about the original emags that came out. Sure an Emag that is non ULE'd, without an xvalve, 1.34 software, and incorrectly tuned couldn't compete. Hold a ULE'd emag with xvavle and a predator board in it that is tuned correctly. It is light, fast, and little kick. I can say this because I own 2. Price wise, how much is your high end Timmy? Maybe not so far off from and Emag with upgrades. As far as looks, that is up to the individual. :cheers:

[RRfireblade]

I wouldn't sweat it.

It all comes down to each persons perception and your not going to change that. If you think that they are then they are to you. If someone else doesn't, then they aren't to them.

Either way it doesn't have any effect in the material world. ;) At this point it's just an arguement over hurt feelings, not worth the effort.

:shooting: :headbang: :shooting: :headbang: GO PLAY AND PROVE YOUR POINTS ON THE FEILD!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap: :dance: :clap: :dance:

[Mind'sEye]

I wouldn't sweat it.

It all comes down to each persons perception and your not going to change that. If you think that they are then they are to you. If someone else doesn't, then they aren't to them.

Either way it doesn't have any effect in the material world. ;) At this point it's just an arguement over hurt feelings, not worth the effort.

First let me say that I've been “tweaking” things all my life. For instance, I own a 1985 Toyota MR2. It was a great little sports car in it's day but it slowly fell behind the performance curve. I upgraded the suspension and the engine to the point where I now have a car which drives and performs like a mini-lotus. With it's cold-air ram intake scoop wrapped around the rear c panel, people on the street comment about it all the time. Everybody wants a ride in it. I have something Harley Davidson enthusiasts have known for a long time, Pride of Ownership.

I don't think we can change the mind of anyone who is chasing after the latest marketing craze. I do think that there are a significant number of Emag owners who may be negatively influenced by these naysayers and that seems to me to be a shame because with some well chosen aftermarket parts the Emag can rip right up there with anything on the market. Since I count the Fireblade trigger as one of those upgrades I would think that this could indeed have an affect on the material world. ;)


they are not high end b/c they can not compete with the rof that true high end markers have. they are overpriced and they also weigh alot. when i think of a high end marker i think if weight, looks and performance. mags weigh alot, dont look that good and are not that fast( yes e-mags, x-mags and LEGAL mech mags are not that fast) with TONS of kick. shoot a high end timmy, DM5, EGO, or Speed and you will feel and notice a huge differenct. they are very good for the rec player or a player who playes in a few tournies but if you want to be serious and play lots of tournies then you need a high end gun to keep up and a mag will not do that.

edit: maybe the new Devil mag can b/c it has the Pred board in it.

1. Price.
You can build a fully upped Emag with a combination of used and new aftermarket parts for less than that overpriced high end Timmy. With the Timmy you pay for a lot of pimping.

2. Weight
An all ule Emag with X valve and attention to lightness details with things like a CCM no pro feedneck can be made competative in weight. Part of the weight factor is in the quality of materials. You can get the weight down to a more than reasonable trade off.

3.Rate of Fire
Tournaments cap rate of fire at 15 bps. Anything past that is useless. What you need is a marker that can shoot smoothly and consistently at 15 bps. Tuned correctly, the Emag will rip that rate all day. With the Predator board install, it will ramp up to 21/22 bps or whatever the limit of the solenoid is. Plenty fast if you think that kind of firepower is “fun”.

4. Kick
LOL I own a Freestyle. It is considered, along with the Matrix, to be the most “kickless” marker on the market. I will not comment on kick because this is often a personal perception but my Emag shoots ropes as straight as my Freestyle. That's all that matters to me

[RRfireblade]

Since I count the Fireblade trigger as one of those upgrades I would think that this could indeed have an affect on the material world. ;)




Well there's no question that's a High End trigger. :D

[WARPED1]

stop humping agd's leg and get over it, your mag is not as high end as other markers now.

Peace
Thomas
I'M NOT THE ONLY ON!



Disclaimer: I am not bashing mags, I just don't think they're high end either, they are a "niche" gun. AO is thier niche. :)

[deadbox101]

they are not high end b/c they can not compete with the rof that true high end markers have. they are overpriced and they also weigh alot. when i think of a high end marker i think if weight, looks and performance. mags weigh alot, dont look that good and are not that fast( yes e-mags, x-mags and LEGAL mech mags are not that fast) with TONS of kick. shoot a high end timmy, DM5, EGO, or Speed and you will feel and notice a huge differenct. they are very good for the rec player or a player who playes in a few tournies but if you want to be serious and play lots of tournies then you need a high end gun to keep up and a mag will not do that.

edit: maybe the new Devil mag can b/c it has the Pred board in it.


Betcha my mag is lighter then your impulse. ;)

E/X Mags are no longer state of the art or on the cutting edge. Mech mags however, are great and i love mine.(within the realm of mechanicals of course.)

[BD_Paintball]

Betcha my mag is lighter then your impulse. ;)



9 pounds with full 88ci tank, 14in pipe kit, gun and reloader b. i had a all ule mag and my imp is lighter.

[personman]

I'm sorry but impulses are heavier than a mag. I dont care how much you like your impulse, facts are facts.

[WARPED1]

Betcha my mag is lighter then your impulse. ;)

E/X Mags are no longer state of the art or on the cutting edge. Mech mags however, are great and i love mine.(within the realm of mechanicals of course.)
I concur. If I was going all mech again and was playing strictly rec/scenario, I'd just buy a nice Classic mag and up it a little, ULE body, Intelliframe, nice drop.

[Magz_rule]

Have you ever shot a well tuned emag? They ripp if you know how to use them. I have been acused of ramping when I was using emode. :spit_take So a $600 marker that will last a few life times or a marker made of composite plastic and cheap aluminum.
I consider anything over $500 a high end marker , dont listen to your friends.

Also if you look here (http://www.pbreview.com/products/cat/21/) you notice how you are in the "high end mech guns" what markers do you see? Mags

and here (http://www.pbreview.com/products/cat/19/) The Emag


Ive owned and shot many tuned E/X mags. Id shoot an Ion over either one any day.

[buzzboy]

I'd say a nice mag is mid-high end. In my opinion it tops every other marker out there, but I seriously doubt anyone else would share the same opinion. I see mags as almost perfect. In my opinion the only thing they lack is efficiency but that doesnt really bother me.

To each his own, and if he doesnt think mags are high end then leave him alone. Everyone has their own opinions.

I agree completly. Mags are plenty high end. They are fast, potentially walkable, light(with ule), can be electro(emag/xmag/hyperframe/devilmag), superfast recharge and they have the fastest bps I have ever seen or heard of without chopping(zak vetter, q-loader test, 34.5 bps).

Oh yeah. That kid has no clue when he says that a mag will get "laughed off the field.

[Fallout-]

mags are not high end
but you would not be laughed off the field

[deadbox101]

9 pounds with full 88ci tank, 14in pipe kit, gun and reloader b. i had a all ule mag and my imp is lighter.


you mean that brick is lighter then my marker? Im sorry if your mag weighs 9 pounds its obviously not a ule mag.

[A.T.S]

Speaking of efficiency, my classic Mag is set up for co2 with a palmer stabilizer. The stabilizer is set at 450psi my Mag seams to like that pressure better than 800 PSI. so.... I can shoot deep into a tank!

[Alpha]

Mags are the best mech markers, period.

My mech pneumag(in a few days once my part comes in so I can finish it) will top a lot of electros out there.

Even before it was pneu, I shot (with bounce) to 17bps. With my pneumatic mod done, I want to see if I can shatter that.

[cheddarj06]

i consider high end mags -high end-, but an old pro classic is in no way high end. (doesnt make it a bad marker, just not a high end one).

[WARPED1]

Ive owned and shot many tuned E/X mags. Id shoot an Ion over either one any day.
Me too, but I'm thinking of buildind a Pred Emag as back up to my Ion.

[68magOwner]

bottom line- mags are high quality markers, not high end markers.

~fin~

[WARPED1]

bottom line- mags are high quality markers, not high end markers.

~fin~
I can definately agree with that! :)

[NoForts4Me]

So, if a Mag is high quality, but not high end, and and ION is better than a Mag, where does an ION fit into the rating scale? Is an ION high end...say, like a Viking? or a Matrix? or a Shocker? Or is any gun that just shoots fast, or shoots faster than another marker high end or high end(er)? I'm somewhat confused, and I know everyone has their own preferences, but IONs don't appear to be high end either, just a decent, fast gun. If speed is the main qualifier, then are Wrath's and BKO's high end as well?

For the record, I don't consider my Classic Mag to be high end. I consider it a highly reliable, well built marker that shoots plenty fast, doesn't chop, and gets the job done. But I don't see how an X-Mag wouldn't be considered high end. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

[buzzboy]

i consider high end mags -high end-, but an old pro classic is in no way high end. (doesnt make it a bad marker, just not a high end one).
A Pro Classic would be a high end low end gun. If you compare it to other lower level mech guns it would be downright fancy. Its not high end over all but compared to the other guns in its level its pretty nice.

[Lohman446]

A Pro Classic would be a high end low end gun. If you compare it to other lower level mech guns it would be downright fancy. Its not high end over all but compared to the other guns in its level its pretty nice.


What makes it fancy?

[peewee]

I'm cool with mags being a "niche" gun. AGD/PPS + "niche"+ in the top 3% for quality. :cheers: I'm cool with that. :bounce:

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I'm gonna side with the "niche gun" label

I like to think of markers in terms of cars, most nonpaintballers can therefore appreciate what I'm saying

Matrix/DM5/etc. would be like a Ferrari, amazing on the highway or the race track, but **** on average roads

Ion would be like a mustang, a pretender that can run fast but not made with the same quality or precision as other sports cars

Mags are like Subaru's or Volvos, excellent cars made to last, and every once in a while they get their turn to impress, the key here is that they can perform anywhere you put them, onroad/offroad/racetrack


I wouldn't consider a mag a high end marker, but it is a marker for those of us that understand paintball and see that todays fad is tomorrows trash, I will continue shooting and owning mags, because I know in 10 years my gun will still be just as good as the day I bought it.

[Jaan]

A Pro Classic would be a high end low end gun. If you compare it to other lower level mech guns it would be downright fancy. Its not high end over all but compared to the other guns in its level its pretty nice.OKay, there are basically two classes of markers these days, mechanical and electronic. I've been trying to think of another mechanical marker that's better than a .68Automag and I can't come up with one. Autocockers are about the same but there's not a big enough improvement to count. Tippmann makes great guns (I have 3 of them) but blow back is still blow back. I upgraded from a VM-68 to a 'Mag back in the day and I've yet to see a blow back gun significantly better than that VM.

[VFX_Fenix]

1. Price.
You can build a fully upped Emag with a combination of used and new aftermarket parts for less than that overpriced high end Timmy. With the Timmy you pay for a lot of pimping.

2. Weight
An all ule Emag with X valve and attention to lightness details with things like a CCM no pro feedneck can be made competative in weight. Part of the weight factor is in the quality of materials. You can get the weight down to a more than reasonable trade off.

3.Rate of Fire
Tournaments cap rate of fire at 15 bps. Anything past that is useless. What you need is a marker that can shoot smoothly and consistently at 15 bps. Tuned correctly, the Emag will rip that rate all day. With the Predator board install, it will ramp up to 21/22 bps or whatever the limit of the solenoid is. Plenty fast if you think that kind of firepower is “fun”.

4. Kick
LOL I own a Freestyle. It is considered, along with the Matrix, to be the most “kickless” marker on the market. I will not comment on kick because this is often a personal perception but my Emag shoots ropes as straight as my Freestyle. That's all that matters to me

1)
Alias Intimidator - $990
Shocker w/ Vision - $800
Freestyle - $690
2005 Angel Speed - $900
Proto Matrix - $800
Planet eclipse Ego - $1200
E-Mag from WWA - $850 + Predator II + Cost of adding ACE - $1000+

2) My E-Mag w/ ULE Body, X-Valve, CP 14" Aluminum One-Piece, and CP Rail wiegh more than my friend's '03 Shocker with Q-Lock Feed Neck, 14" All American, Stock Bolt Kit, and Smart Rail (w/e the rail thingy that comes with the Max Flow tank is called), the difference is on the order of a pound.

3) ROF - Not all serries are Enhanced Firing modes to 15bps, some serries still follow the NPPL gun rules and allow unlimited ROFs in true semi. Granted getting much past 15 legally is hard to do for the average Joe, but having boards that have at least 2x your personal Max ROF are better than having one that's less than 25% above your MROF. For me, I'd need a board that was capable of at least 24bps, not because I can pull the trigger at 24bps, but because there's a chance, because of the way PCB software is written, that I'll tap the trigger once durring the refractory period of the firing cycle and the shot is effectively lost. I can't recall the principle behind this, though most people who know anything about the theory behind audio recording/mastering and computer science should. The difference between me shooting my E-Mag (1.37 software :cry: ) and shooting an 05 Speed is noticible in the consistnacy of my firing rates, I'm not shooting all that much faster with the Speed but I don't have the obvious skips in my string like I do with a 16bps cap.

4) Kick - Umm... E-Mags have Kick??? I don't notice it if they do, at least not like with my A-5 :shooting:

The Mag is far from the Cutting Edge. The platform hasn't changed in over 12 years. Is it High-End? It's certainly expensive enough to be. Do I use my E-Mag when I go to tournaments? Hell yeah. Have I been laughed off the field for using it? No, I've gotten some questions about what the heck it is and the occational "Mags are Crap" comment but most of the time people are curious about this "relic" from the antiquity of paintball.

An E-Mag is about the most expensive sear-tripper you can buy. The ULE-Automag itself is more expensive than a lot of Autocockers.

High Quality - Yes
High Value - Not realy considering other options out there.
High End - Not in the realm of the tournament scene.

[Mind'sEye]

1)
Alias Intimidator - $990
Shocker w/ Vision - $800
Freestyle - $690
2005 Angel Speed - $900
Proto Matrix - $800
Planet eclipse Ego - $1200
E-Mag from WWA - $850 + Predator II + Cost of adding ACE - $1000+

Good point, though in terms of value, I was refering to the markers such as "high end" Timmys which are 1300+. For cost savings, you can use a mixture of new and used parts to build an Emag rather than purchasing a new one.


2) My E-Mag w/ ULE Body, X-Valve, CP 14" Aluminum One-Piece, and CP Rail wiegh more than my friend's '03 Shocker with Q-Lock Feed Neck, 14" All American, Stock Bolt Kit, and Smart Rail (w/e the rail thingy that comes with the Max Flow tank is called), the difference is on the order of a pound.

Ouch! Do you have ULE lowers and rail? Are you using light stuff from CCM? My Emag is within 8oz. of my Freestyle, one of the lighter ones out there.


The difference between me shooting my E-Mag (1.37 software :cry: ) and shooting an 05 Speed is noticible in the consistancy of my firing rates, I'm not shooting all that much faster with the Speed but I don't have the obvious skips in my string like I do with a 16bps cap.

I upgraded from 1.37 to a Predator/Morlock board. I agree that "high end" software makes a HUGE difference.


The Mag is far from the Cutting Edge. The platform hasn't changed in over 12 years. Is it High-End? It's certainly expensive enough to be. Do I use my E-Mag when I go to tournaments? Hell yeah. Have I been laughed off the field for using it? No, I've gotten some questions about what the heck it is and the occational "Mags are Crap" comment but most of the time people are curious about this "relic" from the antiquity of paintball.

Very Cool! :)


An E-Mag is about the most expensive sear-tripper you can buy. The ULE-Automag itself is more expensive than a lot of Autocockers.

High Quality - Yes
High Value - Not realy considering other options out there.
High End - Not in the realm of the tournament scene.

True enough. Owning an Emag is, perhaps, more an enthusiast's pursuit, yet with the right upgrades it can still hold it's own against anything out there. You won't be seeing any pro teams using Emags because AGD isn't offering any big sponsorships.

[Lohman446]

2) My E-Mag w/ ULE Body, X-Valve, CP 14" Aluminum One-Piece, and CP Rail wiegh more than my friend's '03 Shocker with Q-Lock Feed Neck, 14" All American, Stock Bolt Kit, and Smart Rail (w/e the rail thingy that comes with the Max Flow tank is called), the difference is on the order of a pound.

You're E-mag is under a pound?

[A-Tach-One]

You're E-mag is under a pound?
I believe he is saying his Emag is about a pound heavier than his friends Shocker. :cheers:

[VFX_Fenix]

I believe he is saying his Emag is about a pound heavier than his friends Shocker. :cheers:


Cheers to that! Yeah, My E-Mag weighs somewhere around 4 or 5 lbs. I can't recall exactly. BUT I'm not using any ULE bottom end stuff, it's all stock E-Mag lowers that I bought off of AO like 5 months back. The Battery along is pretty heavy and that's where I get a bit of weight from considering the weight difference between a 9V and the 16.8V pack. And the only CCM bit I have on my E-Mag is a No-Pro feed-neck, it's pure seks with an Evo II.

One of these days I'll get some lighter bits for her, but for the time being, she'll have to make due with being a little on the chunky side. Which is just fine by me :D

[Lohman446]

I believe he is saying his Emag is about a pound heavier than his friends Shocker. :cheers:

Stock an 03 Shocker weighs 1 pound 14 ounces... if your a pound lighter it puts you at 14 ounces...

[Aslan]

i think that, in general, people in this sport have become obcessed with speed to the point where they feel that that is the most important feature. this is a big part of the reason that we see kids with no talent or skill using ions and wraths and intimidators and matrixes talking about how great they are at paintball simply because they can shoot fast.

Thank You. It's amazing to go to a field and watch what happens when one of those kid's gun breaks and they get convinced to play with a back-up mechanical. They have usually have zero skills on a woodsball field and last like 3 minutes. It's not just the poor camoflage of their Red Dye jerseys...it's also their reliance on speed over tactics. Usually these kids quit playing after the first game and either go home and have daddy fix their gun...or they convinve daddy to buy them another one. :hail:

[Aslan]

they are not high end b/c they can not compete with the rof that true high end markers have. they are overpriced and they also weigh alot. when i think of a high end marker i think if weight, looks and performance. mags weigh alot, dont look that good and are not that fast( yes e-mags, x-mags and LEGAL mech mags are not that fast) with TONS of kick. shoot a high end timmy, DM5, EGO, or Speed and you will feel and notice a huge differenct. they are very good for the rec player or a player who playes in a few tournies but if you want to be serious and play lots of tournies then you need a high end gun to keep up and a mag will not do that.

edit: maybe the new Devil mag can b/c it has the Pred board in it.

I guess if I was such a bad player that any rec player with a Tippmann scared me...I would probably totally base my determination on speed and looks as well.

I'm not sure which has been worse for the paintball hobby...electronic markers, ions, or speedball in general. I also don't know what I'm more sick of hearing about...the runaway bride...or how the ion is the end-all be-all of markers.