Why is Ramping Good?

[SlartyBartFast]

Like the title says.

Besides higher profits from the sales of paint, what advantage does ramping add to the game?

Here's the scenario for the basis of this discussion:

All players wearing and using the exact same equipment.

So, what would be more interesting, challenging, a better test of skills, etc.
What is lost in removing ramping and playing TRUE semi?

So, if you're going to respond give pros and cons for each of the following:

If:

A - All true semi only. One pull. One shot.
B - All ramping 13bps.
C - All ramping 15bps.
D - All ramping at greater than 15bps.
E - All full auto.

THIS IS NOT A RULES DISCUSSION.
IF YOU NOT INTERESTED IN DISCUSSING, GET OUT OF THE THREAD AND IGNORE IT.

[WARPED1]

C, ramping is good for those new to the big events to be able to keep up.





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[SlartyBartFast]

C, ramping is good for those new to the big events to be able to keep up.

Which, IMO is a HUGE negative for the sport.

Competition isn't about levelling the playing field for the new guys.

If you don't have the shooting skills, why the heck should you be given a free pass in a shooting sport?

[68magOwner]

ok, more and more local tournaments have gone to 15bps ramping, and, with that adaptation, i have noted something.

I will play a guy, or a team, shooting semi, and say, we just roll them

then, if I go play the same team or player wiht 15bps ramping, i find that they are much more effective players.

SO, my point is, for experienced players with good gunfighting skills, playing semi is very advantegous (sp) with ramping, it definately takes away from the skills that make up a great player. Sort of evens out the playing field, players who were previously not so good, now play as good as anyone else.
I find that it is much harder to be a standout player when everyone is ramping, because in semi, you could out-gunfight player after player, but, with ramping, everyone can shoot while reloading and it becomes more of a game of getting better angles and avoiding being shot than actually gunfighting someone.

Hmm, sort of difficult to get at what im trying to say, but, mabey someone will understand some of that.

[can'tthink of1]

If you guys were at teh Chicago open you would of seen what I'm talking about.

No one moves off the break, they almost never go past the 40 off the break. They all just sit back and shoot. Game are basically won by each team sitting there and shooting at eachother till 1 guy is left on the other side, then they move up. The games were a bore, and very little bunkerings and such. Paintball has gotten really defensive, just because it's now possible for anyone to rail on their marker. More action my ***.

[WARPED1]

Well, pb is big business now. And the only real way to make money is to sell paint, hence ramping. Sure it's not a skill builder, but big companies don't care how you play. There are options for those that don't like ramping etc. Stock class or modified stock.
It's like when christian fundamentalists complain that the music on the radio offends them. Well, there are 2 knobs on the radio. One changes the station the other turns it off. But those people have trouble touching anything with two knobs on it! :p

If you guys were at teh Chicago open you would of seen what I'm talking about.

No one moves off the break, they almost never go past the 40 off the break. They all just sit back and shoot. Game are basically won by each team sitting there and shooting at eachother till 1 guy is left on the other side, then they move up. The games were a bore, and very little bunkerings and such. Paintball has gotten really defensive, just because it's now possible for anyone to rail on their marker. More action my ***.

Are you sure you weren't watchin NPPL? Every time I watch Xball there are moves galore!

[SlartyBartFast]

ok, ....

Your point is essentially the same as WARPED1. That ramping helps the lazy, the inexeperienced, and the untalented compete on an equal footing.

But why is that good? If it's a good thing to eliminate skills from a competition, why not use a pitching machine or t-ball stand in MLB?

The height of the basket sure is a drag for short people. Why not lower the NBA nets? It's tough to dribble, run, AND line up for a shot. Why not allow ball carrying inside the key?

Shouldn't the "pros" and the hot shots at the local level want to test ALL their skills and expose ALL their opponents weaknesses?

Why do players then clamour for something that essentially just lines the pockets of the promoters?

[Lohman446]

I don't like the fact that being able to pull the trigger fast is a skill that influences the game. Now I think it is very overrated and I understand people have worked at it, but it just to me does not seem to be something that should impact the outcome. Ramping at 13BPS + (whatever you choose) removes this from being a skill and allows us to test the other skills associated with the game. This is under ideal circumstances though, with absolutely no other considerations as to the negative impact(s) ramping can have.

[SlartyBartFast]

I don't like the fact that being able to pull the trigger fast is a skill that influences the game.

So, you think that ramping is a good thing and that shooting skills shouldn't be part of the game skillset? :confused:

So, why not full auto?

And ignore "other" issues. They have no place in this thread. ;)

[Lohman446]

So, you think that ramping is a good thing and that shooting skills shouldn't be part of the game skillset? :confused:

So, why not full auto?

And ignore "other" issues. They have no place in this thread. ;)

Why not full auto? Lets test the skills of the player and there equipment. Remember here that I am not saying being able to shoot fast isn't a skill... I think it has some marginal influence on the game. I think it is overrated in its signifigance vastly... I have no problem testing the ability of the players and there equipment, you can feed it lets shoot it, ramping, full auto, whatever. I think we are close to running into a problem in 7 minute games with backplayers being able to carry enough paint in a reasonable manner anyways. Might be fun.

[TheTramp]

...with ramping, everyone can shoot while reloading...

I think this is a big negative. Even with the crazy cheating that became really popular with the WAS board ect there was always the fact that you slowed WAY down when re-loading which gave people a chance to move unless your team was really good at keeping each other covered.

Now you just wiggle your fingers a little bit and blaze away as you re-load. Just about stops the game really. As said before. The teams shoot packs of paint from their first bunker until the other side has 1-2 players left then finaly moves in to mop up. Not that fun to play or watch IMHO.

[can'tthink of1]

Are you sure you weren't watchin NPPL? Every time I watch Xball there are moves galore!

You're a funny guy. This is from watching NXL and PSP games. People only moved when it was down to like 5 vs 2 and crap like that. It was crap imo.. and no one ever went to the 30, 40, or 50 OTB.

The russian legion was the only team I saw constantly bumping up. Heck, some of thier markers were SEMI too.

[Chronobreak]

well its hard to make a stance based on ramping and the legality of guns without bringing a number of other subjects and factors into the convo.

ignoring them simply makes the whole make believe scenario pretty much null and void.

i have also noticed that when the bps goes higher the movement seems to slow down(atleast until one team has higher #'s)

x-ball seems to provide alot of movement most the time, but i would like to see a semi only league at 15 bps no ramping no debounce no..nothing(although minimum deboucne etc are going to be HARD to find and catch 100% of the time) I would like to see how that went and if it was infact a good or bad thing..


so i guess i would say A however i feel that is wishful thinking and will never happen(unles p-ball standards are ever formed and ADHEARED(spl) to)

[r-unit]

C. Ramping 15bps

I think that the main pro of this is the current situation. Look at boards like the Advantage Speedy2. They look exactly the same as a normal board, but when tapped into a special code with the trigger, it ramps- fast. And the refs cant prove it. People will cheat, and do it no matter what, especially since they can often get away with it. However, if ramping is allowed, to a point (15 bps), than the cheaters can cheat, but cannot shoot at dangerous ROF's, such as uncapped ramping that maxes out your loader. Guns can shoot 30+ bps these days. Hoppers are starting to catch up. So basically, since more and more people would start ramping any way, why not just allow it to a pretty fast point, but then stop it before it gets to a point where it's dangerous.
In short, if everybody is doing it, and there's no (reasonable and feasable) way to catch them, then why not allow it, but put a reasonable cap on it?

I'm not very sure about the cons of it. Can't really think of any "good" cons at the moment.

That's in a general situation.

In a situation where everybody is going 15bps, same equipment, I guess since everybodies gear is equal, then it really shows who the good players are.

[RRfireblade]

Me and Lohman have been thru all this stuff before so this is for the rest of you ;) ,

Ramping is bad cause...

Because of it being allowed in the 'Pros' it's become standard at almost every Rec ball field, private or commercial,

It promotes more cheating than ever before,

It's makes it even harder to catch cheating than ever before,

"Pros" are now getting caught (occasionally) on the field shooting 'ramped to feed rate' (22bps+) more and more instead of the 15 that everyone seems to think is fine,

It promotes lazy shooting tactics and a complete lack of any need to develop off hand shooting skills andthe ability to shoot effectively on the run thereby bringing down the quality of even the 'average' player and at the same time negates the hard work and practice put it by the seasened player,

On the Rec side....


It promotes more cheating than ever before,

It's makes it impossible to catch cheating like nothing before,

It allows for massively increased instances of over shooting on the rec ball feeds,

It's (in my witness) created 10 time the danger quotient of 'accidental discharges' that now consist of 10-20 shots into the back of someones head or worse, instead of the typical 1-2,

It make every 'newb' think they must have it (bad), and drives up the cost needed for them to get involved in the sport (more bad), then when they do they're extremely intimidated to take the feild against advanced players cause they don't want to get hurt (worse) and half he time when they do, they get over shoot by some other 'newb' who has no idea how to handle that ROF or even has any concept of what 20bps really means(more worse) and ultimatly drives peole away from the sport. (the worst)

Instead of 'leveling' the playing field like some many people suggests, it makes everyone feel like they 'need' ramping to be competitive. Therefore demanding more expensive equiptment and more paint per game/day which actually now 'unevens' the feild between those who can afford what ever it costs and those who used to be able to afford to play and now are left out.

And.....


Eh.....

That's enough since more discussion on the subject here isn't going to do a dang thing. ;)

[SlartyBartFast]

Good points from RRfireblade, r-unit, and Chronobreak.

But, they sidestepped the instructions. No discussion of cheating, the situation IS ideal. All players get tournament supplied markers set to the same thing.

The dastardly reasoning behind this line of questioning is the following:

To prove a hypothesis or come to a conclusion you have to test a theory with all other variables fixed and only the variable being tested changing.

So, if we
- decide what ramping does/does not do.
- decide if it's good/bad for the ideal game.
- decide if it's feasible.

It's only at the last point that issues of what the rules should be, what the punishments are, and how easy it is to cheat come into play.

Personally, I think the game was more fast paced and had more movement back when I was out in the woods with a Splatmaster. In 10 on 10 the games weren't that much longer as the objective of hanging the flag was actually more important than total eliminations.

But now I'm breaking my own rules and changing the topic. :p

[RRfireblade]

First off, 'Ideal' is a waste of a discussion cause it proves and therefore changes nothing.

Second, Ramping was implimented for ONE REASON and one reason only, to limit the option for cheating in the Pro leagues which has been shown to be a complete and utter failure. ;)

Lastly, you wnat to see the difference, go play Pump on Pump speedball for a day. It's the closest thing to 'ideal' your going to find. :)

The simple fact is ROF makes a difference, a big difference and always has. The game started with pumps and single shots and as people found ways to gain ROF , they also gained an advantage. The sport had no choice but to follow the leaders of the game on a competitive level. It's continued like that right up to now, constantly chasing the advantages gained by ROF until we reached the point that humans were the final limit therefore, on the competitive level 'humans,who hate to admit they have any limits, found a way to cheat thier own limitations until that was completely out of hand. Tourny officials and promoters, in an efffort to stop the massive bleeding cut off thier own heads and allowed ramping in a blind attempt to limit the cheating they refuse to take the required steps to stop and now don't have the brains to see there mistake or the balls to do what it takes to fix it.

So....

That's as 'ideal' as it gets.


:cool:

[NukeGoose]

I don't like ramping. It leads to people getting overshot, and takes a lot of skill out of running and shooting, as well as shooting off-handed.

However-

There are enough dishonest cheaters in the world that there's no way to enforce a strict semi-only environment. It's very hard to tell if someone's pulling 14/sec and a bit of bounce is adding 2 or 3 shots/sec. 15 BPS semi-only would be fine with me, but most people want a trade-off of some sort for fewer balls per second coming out (even though I don't know of many people who can or do legally pull over 15/sec during a game), and so we have PSP style ramping.

Whether it's good or bad for the game is up to the players - some people don't mind getting shot 5+ times every game, some do. Some feel that the ease of putting much more paint than usual in the air adds to the excitement. It's important to remember that paintball is still a game, and anything - including ramping - is good as long as everyone playing enjoys it.

[SlartyBartFast]

The simple fact is ROF makes a difference, a big difference and always has.

Yes. But why abandon ROF as a skill?

Don't other shooting sports have trigger travel and pull weight standards?

I understand the move to allow ramping in the "pro" levels was aimed at eliminating cheating. IMO, it was just sticking thier heads in the sand and pretending to address the issue.

Until some serious enforcement at the equipment end is implemented, cheating will always be rampant at the "pro" levels.

Thanks to the Fanboys and the culture that endorses and even applauds cheating, the firing modes were all brought to regular play by the colusion, participation, and even ignorance of the manufacturers. Paintballers were sold the myth that they needed to be able to fiddle with every last little adjustable variable in software code.

[Spacemanvic]

Which, IMO is a HUGE negative for the sport.

Competition isn't about levelling the playing field for the new guys.

If you don't have the shooting skills, why the heck should you be given a free pass in a shooting sport?


QFT

[Lohman446]

The simple fact is ROF makes a difference, a big difference and always has. :


I think this is true when you compare 1BPS to 2 or 3BPS but I think the "big" differenc is overstated when comparing say 5+ vs 15BPS... I don't think its as big a deal as people would like to think it is

[WARPED1]

You are all missing the point that PB is run by big business and is driven by paint sales. Even on the rec level, heck even the "outlaw" fields have to have paint to play! Money makes the world go 'round, PB is no longer the friendly little game where a bunch of people just hanging out playing on thier friends fathers land. The markup on guns is very tiny, for example, a Proto is $799 new now, but stores pay $550. A good deal, but a tiny markup.
It's both good and bad about this, I like the recognition, but the big business kind of sucks.







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[buzzboy]

Ramping is not a good thing.

When the noob players come up from backyard woodsball(like me) they don't need that 15 bps. It makes them worse players in the longrun. If you start playing with a pump or a true semi you learn how to play the game and how to lay down paint when nessasary and when/how to move. With ramping the noobs move up into speedball and they don't know how to play. All they have to do is lay down paint with the ramping boards. It's just stupid. The group of kids I play with all play semi. A few have electros but they only use semi mode. We actually pick shots and use stealth and move around. We play to use less and less paint because paint ain't cheap. Thats the way paintball should be played. Not just get a gun that can cheat and go throw paint at each other with it.

My opinion and please don't flame me.

[A.T.S]

Sorry I will not fallow the rules. After reading the discussion so far, I think the title of this thread should be: " Why stock class paintball is so kool."

[68magOwner]

clarification- my post was to show that ramping, sucks for players who are actually talented with their gun skills, because, now stuff they they took time to master/got good at, can be done by any kid walking on the field.

I think ramping, to an extent, has taken the game, and preety much made it more luck of who can land a shot on the oppenent as much as it is actual skill.

Yes i use psp ramping when applicable, no i do not like it nor do i like my opponents having it, yes i would rather play straight up semi knowing that there is going to be the occasional un-capped ramping marker on the field, no i cant do nothing about it.

[GordDesigns]

A; one pull one shot

I just remember that most of the people who started playing, did so at a field that rented just semi's.
It was fun and challanging to go play, you had to play better. :) Not shoot faster that the other guy/girl to win. :shooting:
I will agree that the ramping is interesting, but..... I see it as a way to sell more paint. :rolleyes:

How does it really improve your game? :confused:
Does it make you duck faster? :wow:
Or hide behind that bunker longer?
Or you can't play/practice as long as you want too because, your broke from buying paint? :tard:

My 2 cents
:cheers:

[Conversekidz]

ramping has made me lazy.....honestly.


Why work at walking a trigger fast when you can do the same with one finger....

[Blazestorm]

If you guys were at teh Chicago open you would of seen what I'm talking about.

No one moves off the break, they almost never go past the 40 off the break. They all just sit back and shoot. Game are basically won by each team sitting there and shooting at eachother till 1 guy is left on the other side, then they move up. The games were a bore, and very little bunkerings and such. Paintball has gotten really defensive, just because it's now possible for anyone to rail on their marker. More action my ***.

You must have been watching 5man not X-ball.

Watch XSV vs. Naughty Dogs or something... now try to tell me that.

[can'tthink of1]

You must have been watching 5man not X-ball.

Watch XSV vs. Naughty Dogs or something... now try to tell me that.

RL vs Miami was where it was at, I have to say. RL rolled down the feild, I loved it. I think one or 2 of them were using semi too.

But in all seriousness, I was watching X-ball, and it's what I saw. And same thing in 5-man if it matters... It was like the same thing everywhere. The bigger names were better about it, but not very much so, and sometimes, they played super defensive too.

[Blazestorm]

It depends on whats happening. Maybe you're up a few points and want to keep the lead or run the clock down... play defensive...

It really all depends. People can't be super aggressive, every game, all the time. It can happen, but I think for the most part Playing 18-20 points worth of games in a 32 minute period of playing time. Is a bit more than 90 times 20 games... seconds of game time per point. Compared to 420 seconds worth x 8 games in prelims in 7man NPPL. :)

There's more paintball, more fast paintball in x-ball.

[LudavicoSoldier]

I dunno about you guys, but "gun play" is the major reason I got into this sport. I want to be in full control of my marker, so as to show off my "gun skills". Ramping takes all the character out of the way you shoot. Sameness is boring! Your marker is an extention of your personality to a certain extent. Be expressive with your oppressive firepower! Don't be a ramp tramp. :D

[the_lane]

Thanks to the Fanboys and the culture that endorses and even applauds cheating, the firing modes were all brought to regular play by the colusion, participation, and even ignorance of the manufacturers. Paintballers were sold the myth that they needed to be able to fiddle with every last little adjustable variable in software code.

man just reading that post made me love my mech mag sooo much more :clap:

-lane
:shooting: :dance:

[RRfireblade]

I think this is true when you compare 1BPS to 2 or 3BPS but I think the "big" differenc is overstated when comparing say 5+ vs 15BPS... I don't think its as big a deal as people would like to think it is


The question is were do you draw the line? And IMO, the diffence between 5bps and 15BPS is most definately huge BTW.

So where does it stop? Now a days many people are saying 1-2 bps at 15 isn't a big deal but because of ramping people are shooting over 20 on the field since there's no possible way for a commercial field to catch them. And that's only cause that's the limit of hoppers and markers in most cases. If Hoppers and markers could ramp to 30, you would be seeing it right now on local feilds. So how about 15bps vs. 30? or 40? Still no concern?

It's like having the 'honor' system for speed limits in your car, do you know anybody on the planet that's going to drive 55 on the highway if they knew no one would stop them from going faster?

The only attempt at a limit we had before was the assumption that it was one pull, one shot. then when people ramped,bounced or otherwise cheated you could at least have a decent idea who was cheating but now...forget about it.

But until it get's changed on the Pro level, nothing will change anywhere else.

[UnbrakableX]

I wish I hadn't of sold my phantom... :/

[Lohman446]

I'm sorry, when I said big deal I meant competetive advantage. I don't think that you are gaining much in competetive advantage from higher BPS in the current (and 5 or 10 BPS +) arms race. Perhaps some advantage on the break...

[RRfireblade]

I'm sorry, when I said big deal I meant competetive advantage. I don't think that you are gaining much in competetive advantage from higher BPS in the current (and 5 or 10 BPS +) arms race. Perhaps some advantage on the break...

I know. ;) We've had this difference of opinion before,it cool.

All I can say is if it didn't make a noticalble difference you wouldn't have Pros taking the risk of getting caught w/ modes,bounce and ramp years ago and you wouldn't have them taking the same risk getting caught shooting 20+ now if 'they' didn't think the advantage was worth a DQ...and that's people that play paintball for a living, thier lively hood.If it wasn't any advantage , this would have never become the issue it is.



Yes. But why abandon ROF as a skill?

Who want's to do that? That's where me and alot of people wish it went back too.