Since a warp driven backpack “loader” would almost guarantee a win…

[hitech]

Why aren’t any teams trying it? If everyone on the team had a backpack loader with 2-4k rounds they would never have to tuck back in. Once you get the other guy tucked in, you stay out and keep them pinned. Then you start bunkering people. While it wouldn’t out right guarantee a win, it would almost do so. So, why hasn’t anyone tried this?

[68magOwner]

its preety much the same thing right now (not having to duck in by your standards) because, with PSP ramping, you can shoot/reload while shooting your 15bps and never stop. But, you seem to forget, some people can actually gun fight :eek:

[Blazestorm]

Cause they couldn't move? Their team gets shot out and the last guy can't do anything.

Not practical. Silly. etc. :)

[Arson51]

There was a design like this back in like 98 that never made it out of prototype. It was co2 powered. My brother told me that he actually saw one in action when he went to play out law in that year. He specificatly told me it wasnt a warp, and fed from a harness/backpack system. If one came out I would jump it.

I forgot, it would look alot like the mascott of proteam http://www.proteamdirect.com/proteam/index.html

[Bolter]

Ok thats fine, nice idea, but what happens if the contraption stops working, or stops feeding, or even worse you get a break somewhere?

[RRfireblade]

Cause it wouldn't change anything other than adding a ton of weight to the player, restricting physical movement, inhibiting off hand shooting, adding a ton of complexity to the set up it and potential for failure of the 'sytsem' and....

Well I think that's enough. ;)

Pretty much no one uses warp feeds alone, why would they even consider a Warp fed monumenal contraption. :D

[Eagle]

From what I've heard, the warp isn't powerful enough to feed that many balls from that sort of distance.

[hitech]

Cause it wouldn't change anything…

Maybe I’m missing something, but I have NEVER watched a tournament where an entire team NEVER stopped shooting.


other than adding a ton of weight to the player, restricting physical movement …


inhibiting off hand shooting…

It wouldn’t inhibit off hand shooting. You could easily shoot from both sides of a bunker.


adding a ton of complexity to the set up it and potential for failure of the 'system'…

But for a “guaranteed” win? That’s what “they” said about electronic markers at first…


Pretty much no one uses warp feeds alone…

And, that, is probably the only real reason.

[hitech]

From what I've heard, the warp isn't powerful enough to feed that many balls from that sort of distance.

The warp would need modifications. But it is certainly possible. It's acutally been done.

[68magOwner]

Maybe I’m missing something, but I have NEVER watched a tournament where an entire team NEVER stopped shooting.


your right, i havent seen an entire team never stop shooting, but, saw in a vid, some guy (beleve he was playing for infamous) made his bunker, started shooting, opened his hopper, and proceded to shoot something like 7 pods without ever stopping

regardelss, if a guy has 2 cases of paint on his back, he isnt going to be terribly mobile, and, say that one of your guys with the warp on his back is shooting at someone, the other guy can just snap shoot, put him in, then run somewhere. Inevitably (sp?) one player on the opposing team would just get behind all your stationary players.

[AGDlover]

Because a warp feed doesnt have the power to force that much paint through that long of a hose even ask the automagness tank

[hitech]

Because a warp feed doesnt have the power to force that much paint through that long of a hose even ask the automagness tank


The warp would need modifications. But it is certainly possible. It's acutally been done.

:cheers:

[Skoad]

back players could use them.....

[Kevmaster]

Because a warp feed doesnt have the power to force that much paint through that long of a hose even ask the automagness tank

thats why you'd use two warps...one in the backpack..one on the gun

and yes, mods would be needed

[behemoth]

i agree hitech, lets do it :p

Seriously guys.

if you design the backpack correctly, it wouldnt be so cumbersome, and it would allow for someone to bascially empty a tank.

Never have to reload, it owuld provide non-stop supression fire.

It'd be alot of paint wasted, but if the team would have an almost guarentee'd win, a company would sponser that :p

[AGDlover]

thats why you'd use two warps...one in the backpack..one on the gun

and yes, mods would be needed


no what you need is a larger warp peroid you would need a more powerful moter. To push past 14"(not exzactly sure on the length) on a normal warp is a lot of strain on that warp.

[KillingSpree]

AND THE FINAL QUESTION IS.......drumline.......would it be tourney leagal?

i mean do u actually think theyd let u go in with huge backpacks on...i dont think so but maybe. lets hope they do :ninja:

[68magOwner]

AND THE FINAL QUESTION IS.......drumline.......would it be tourney leagal?

i mean do u actually think theyd let u go in with huge backpacks on...i dont think so but maybe. lets hope they do :ninja:

yes, its legal

and- it can be done, i remember AO did one for a guy with no arms who wanted to play i bleive.

saw another on ebay, seen em around
i dont think it would add anything to your game (and certianly would kill your wallet if you plan on shooting a case a game), but, feel free to use it

[KillingSpree]

and certianly would kill your wallet if you plan on shooting a case a game, but, feel free to use it



WORD! dame when u think of it...5 cents a bullet (decent kind)..thats a lot of non stop money flowing outta that barrel. sometimes people get trigger happy and dont realize how much money they're shooting.

[logamus]

just because you have a case of paint on your back doesnt mean you have to shoot it all.


i think such a device would be embraced more by the scenario player than the tournament player.

[Chronobreak]

ive been planning one for years


although i dont readily have all ther esources to do it.


my easiest idea so far seemed to be a beefed up halo/warp combo thing ont he pack, and a smaller turbocharger type dealy for the gun(to keep speeds and forcefeed up)

i would like to see it done,and btw if done right i think it could easily play a major role in a game. :hail: ex with a warp like setup :ninja:

[KillingSpree]

just because you have a case of paint on your back doesnt mean you have to shoot it all.

i was refering to the trigger happy ppl :shooting: but ur right, doesnt mean u r gonna want to shoot it all....but it must be very tempting :ninja:

[Ratzo]

I had asked a couple of years back about how to get a warp to move paint straight up about 3 feet.
Tom Kaye posted that I would need to modify the Warp by adding a second set of discs, change to a gear drive and use 2 9volts.

[RRfireblade]

Maybe I’m missing something, but I have NEVER watched a tournament where an entire team NEVER stopped shooting.





It wouldn’t inhibit off hand shooting. You could easily shoot from both sides of a bunker.



But for a “guaranteed” win? That’s what “they” said about electronic markers at first…



And, that, is probably the only real reason.

There's no need to 'keep' shooting during a game. After the break, laning has much less effectiveness. Snap shooting is what wins games after the break.

Sure it would, shooting from both side of a bunker witha warp type set up is a completely different procedure and while possible, is definately less efficient than simple switching hands.

"Guaranteed" ? As I said, it won't guarantee anything except slowing down most players. ;)

[Lohman446]

There's no need to 'keep' shooting during a game. After the break, laning has much less effectiveness. Snap shooting is what wins games after the break.


I would argue its smart moves to take advantage of your opponents distractions and misconceptions followed by effective shooting of any type that wins games :D

[RRfireblade]

I would argue its smart moves to take advantage of your opponents distractions and misconceptions followed by effective shooting of any type that wins games :D



I would argue...then...that if my team can out snap shoot your team, your team ain't moving anywhere on anybody. ;)

[rabidchihauhau]

There are some "tournament sensibilities" that you are failing to take into account as well.

1. no serious tournament player is going to walk onto the field with a backpack on. Its not 'cool', doesn't have the right look and, you can argue that all day long, but until the 'dress code' changes from the top, it ain't never gonna happen

2. the 'Pro-Mag 1000' and 'Pro-Mag 600' were backpack based systems that put a switch at the feedport, a coil of corrugated hose and an HP tank in the backpack. It worked reasonably well. It was demoed by a tournament team (Nemesis), it was shopped to everyone and it has a patent grant. Where is it? Nowhere. Too costly, too 'uncool'

3. You want to put 16 to 35 pounds of paint on your back? What RR said - reduces mobility, increases player profile.

4. 'Off hand' shooting means switching hands, not bunker sides. If you're switching sides while keeping the gun in your strong hand, you need to go back to tourney school and stop talking about increasing firepower

5. Back to uncool factor - whatever happened to remote lines? No more tanks on the back; beyond the already stated (reduction in ability to switch hands), the damn things bounced off your tailbone with every step and turned you into a turtle if you had to play down on the ground.

6. Can you see someone trying to do a superman or a slide with a 30+ pound backpack - not.

7. Why not just put a 1000 round hopper on your gun

8. someone laning continuously means only one thing: I know where he is and where he's shooting - and now he's gone.

[thecavemankevin]

There's no need to 'keep' shooting during a game. After the break, laning has much less effectiveness. Snap shooting is what wins games after the break.

Sure it would, shooting from both side of a bunker witha warp type set up is a completely different procedure and while possible, is definately less efficient than simple switching hands.

"Guaranteed" ? As I said, it won't guarantee anything except slowing down most players. ;)

agreed!

not to mention you'd need a car battery to power the thing [/sarcasim]

it would do nothing more than make it very difficult to move durring a game. if you dont believe me, put a full case in a back pack and try running the field like you were playing the game. see how vigalent you become.

[hitech]

I’m a little surprised at the “in the box” thinking by those who normally don’t do so. Yes, doing some of the thinks people do now in a game would be difficult. However, those thinks wouldn’t be necessary. Pin EVERYONE on the other team in and start bunkering them. I don’t have time to layout the strategy, but I know you guys can come up with one.

It’s not cool, and I think that is the only reason no one has tried it.

[Lohman446]

The problem I see with the idea is one of there players is not going to be getting hoses by a constant stream of paint and will have the chance to pick off either one of the laners or the bunkerer... and it is quite possible that there players will wrap a bunker and take out someone.

[Adamk58]

Everybody should be reasonable about this. A backpack isnt going to slow anybody down who can move at all in the first place. I dont know why everyone thinks a few pounds on a gun or whatever else will slow them down, its only a few pounds. Most people weigh what? 170-200? An extra 5 or 10 wont make any difference. Im surprised everybody isnt buyin lightweight clothes and goin shoeless with all the fuss about weight. The only true downside is that it makes you easier to hit. A huge backpack would be easy to hit. Thats the only negative thing other than reliability. But if a company were to design this thing they would get it down to where it would be reliable.

As for scenario players this would be huge. As long as it didnt cost too much.

[TDonovan]

I don't think it's practical, especially with how quick games are ending. The guy with the backpack would probably have to stay at the back center bunker. Trying to run with a bunch of paint on your back would not only hinder movement, but increases surface area for someone to lane you. It'd make aggressive moves pretty much impossible, and only increases the number of things that can malfunction.

The only untraditional hopper that I think is moving in the right direction is the Qloader. There are some things I don't like about it, but I like the concept.

-edit-

Not weigh much? It's going to have to have the parts, energy supply, and capacity to hold lots of paint. If you don't hold a LOT of paint, it makes the idea useless anyways. And say you put a case of paint on your back. I'm not sure exactly how much, but it's definitely a decent amount of weight you're not used to.

[Adamk58]

Not weigh much? It's going to have to have the parts, energy supply, and capacity to hold lots of paint. If you don't hold a LOT of paint, it makes the idea useless anyways. And say you put a case of paint on your back. I'm not sure exactly how much, but it's definitely a decent amount of weight you're not used to.


parts=a small motor attached to some sort of paddle.
energy supply= a few batteries
capacity to hold paint= a bigger version of a hopper, i.e. a big thin plastic shell

the idea does become useless if you dont carry a crap load of paint, but anybody can handle 1500 or so. All this weighs what? 10 pounds. but people carry 6 or 8 pods full of paint already. Just because it isnt in a backpack doesnt make it weigh any less. The idea is to simplify the whole process of having to reload all of the time. I guess technically someone could rig up a harness instead of a backpack. Just have a tube coming out that would run to the gun. All someone would have to do is make a harness that would carry what would be essentially a big pod with a feeding mechanism, and then run a hose to the gun.

[Lurker27]

So, you never pop back in, right? You can't supress both sides of a bunker effectively in any league. you're a sitting duck.

A heavily weaponed duck, but a duck nonetheless. The technology could reduce profile and allow you to shoot both sides with your good hand, as well as shooting from novel positions, but never stopping shooting isn't that big of an advantage in a 1v1 gunfight, unless you're specifcally stopping them from looking out 1 side, as in a 2v1 cover-n-bunker situation

[Adamk58]

The point isnt to be able to shoot constantly. The point is just to be able to go a whole game without having to worry about reloading.

[Blazestorm]

parts=a small motor attached to some sort of paddle.
energy supply= a few batteries
capacity to hold paint= a bigger version of a hopper, i.e. a big thin plastic shell

the idea does become useless if you dont carry a crap load of paint, but anybody can handle 1500 or so. All this weighs what? 10 pounds. but people carry 6 or 8 pods full of paint already. Just because it isnt in a backpack doesnt make it weigh any less. The idea is to simplify the whole process of having to reload all of the time. I guess technically someone could rig up a harness instead of a backpack. Just have a tube coming out that would run to the gun. All someone would have to do is make a harness that would carry what would be essentially a big pod with a feeding mechanism, and then run a hose to the gun.

Try carrying 15 pods in your pack, that is a case of paint. And that's rediculously heavy. Now put that in a backpack strapped to your back, add a device powerful enough to shove 100's of paintballs through a tube then the powersupply (Not 2 9vts... more like one of those jumbo flashlight batterys)

It's impractical. And silly.

Reloading is something I don't even pay attention to now, I just feel my gun lighter and getting less top heavy, so I pop the lid, pull out a pod fill up (total of 3-4 seconds?) close the lid and keep playing.

Another thing, what if the thing malfunctions? what if something goes wrong and it stops feeding. You're screwed. All your paint is in a backpack, you can't pull out a pod and handfeed it, or use a ripdrive to hand-feed paint in.

[Lohman446]

I could see it being convenient for a backplayer....

It would become a major liability though in a pinch situation, I have seen some backplayers, when they loose there front players and are stuck in a corner fighting, drop there pack on there feet to reduce profile... this would be impossible.

I do not see the advantages (not reloading) making a game altering difference though... at least not on the level 99% of us play on.

[Adamk58]

It is silly. But Id do it. You dont have to put a whole case in it. I play woodsball so I would probably just fill it with 400-500 and then you dont have to keep up with pods and fumble them around trying to reload. How i see it there wouldnt be an improvement in performance, it would just be alot simpler.

[hitech]

Let me see if I can make myself clearer.

Each person would be responsible for keeping an opponent pinned behind their bunker. The backpack would allow them to continuously fire at the bunker. The low profile would make you very difficult to be quickly snap shot. Since you are already hitting the bunker they are trying to snap shoot from, a small adjustment is necessary when the "snap out". You only have to concentrate on firing and looking for them to come out from behind the bunker. This would allow you to maintain a high ROF and spot your opponent quickly. The bigger the opponents bunker the more difficult it will be. You would still be able to concentrate on finding them quickly. And they are not going to get any suppressive fire to help them acquire you. Seems like a huge advantage to me.

Bunkering the first opponent is the crucial task. After that, someone is relived of suppression fire duty and can concentrate on taking people out.

With no suppression fire coming your way, your situational awareness is going to go way up.

Playing the game with conventional tactics and a large backpack loader is not going to work. Just like using conventional shooting tactics with a warp doesn't work. You have to modify the tactics to take advantage of the backpack loader.

[Lohman446]

Let me see if I can make myself clearer.

Each person would be responsible for keeping an opponent pinned behind their bunker. The backpack would allow them to continuously fire at the bunker. The low profile would make you very difficult to be quickly snap shot. Since you are already hitting the bunker they are trying to snap shoot from, a small adjustment is necessary when the "snap out". You only have to concentrate on firing and looking for them to come out from behind the bunker. This would allow you to maintain a high ROF and spot your opponent quickly. The bigger the opponents bunker the more difficult it will be. You would still be able to concentrate on finding them quickly. And they are not going to get any suppressive fire to help them acquire you. Seems like a huge advantage to me.

Bunkering the first opponent is the crucial task. After that, someone is relived of suppression fire duty and can concentrate on taking people out.

With no suppression fire coming your way, your situational awareness is going to go way up.

Playing the game with conventional tactics and a large backpack loader is not going to work. Just like using conventional shooting tactics with a warp doesn't work. You have to modify the tactics to take advantage of the backpack loader.

I agree with you on the theory of the tactic, however the people I play against this would work like once before they wised up.

You can only cover one side of the bunker, and you have to be somewhat exposed to do so, I am going to count on one player to be able to take three steps back and to an angle of hsi bunker away from the person surpressing him to cross shoot across field and take out one of the surpressors, this is then going to open the game up against the supression tactic as it gives me an unsurpressed player to use.

[RRfireblade]

Let me see if I can make myself clearer.

Each person would be responsible for keeping an opponent pinned behind their bunker. The backpack would allow them to continuously fire at the bunker. The low profile would make you very difficult to be quickly snap shot. Since you are already hitting the bunker they are trying to snap shoot from, a small adjustment is necessary when the "snap out". You only have to concentrate on firing and looking for them to come out from behind the bunker. This would allow you to maintain a high ROF and spot your opponent quickly. The bigger the opponents bunker the more difficult it will be. You would still be able to concentrate on finding them quickly. And they are not going to get any suppressive fire to help them acquire you. Seems like a huge advantage to me.

Bunkering the first opponent is the crucial task. After that, someone is relived of suppression fire duty and can concentrate on taking people out.

With no suppression fire coming your way, your situational awareness is going to go way up.

Playing the game with conventional tactics and a large backpack loader is not going to work. Just like using conventional shooting tactics with a warp doesn't work. You have to modify the tactics to take advantage of the backpack loader.


You do realize that a steady stream of paint at 15bps will kill a case of paint in just over 2 minutes.So all I have to do while your whole team is running dry is wait 2 minutes then bunker everybody on the other team?

And, do you really think that every person on the 'backpackers' is going to keep down every other opposing player? What if you lose one off the break? How about 2?

How many back bunkers are there on the average field or how far do you really think someone with a case of paint and a whole feeding system strapped to thier back is going to be able to make a forward bunker off the break? In what percentage of the time? And if not, where are they all going to 'camp out' ?

And lastly, I've played against plenty of Warp users over the year IMO and there's not much of a profile advantage anyway. It's not like your big noggin isn't sitting right there where your hopper would have been anyway. ;)

The only advantage a Warp has is in the first few seconds before you realize that player has one but even then, I'm not looking for a players hopper unless it just happens to be sticking out over the top of a bunker (rare), I'm looking for the marker and mask anyway.That's my target most of the time when snapping with someone tucked in tight.

:)



I just wanted to add down here that FYI, this is not a heated,emotional or anything other than just a good spirited discussion. My post format may sometimes imply otherwise so I don't want there to be any confusion or upset feelings. ;)

[rx2]

One thing that I have noticed with remote setups of any type is that, eventually, a hose is going to break, unless it has a braided steel sheath, which then makes annoyingly rigid. One would stand to loose a lot of paint if a hose ripped open. I am sure you could reinforce it with aramid fibers, but that might add too much cost for the average player considering the dubious advantage (although I won't say there couldn't be an advantage to such a situation). Furthermore, it would have to be very impact resistant, should someone do something stupid and land on their back. Crushing a unit like that would be costly, I am sure. I am not really arguing one way or the other, but those are points that I think are worth considering.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

hi-tech, there are many types of bunkers out there but lets use one i call "THE CAN" for an example. There are 4 obvious points on the bunker that a player can shoot from (...maybe 5 if you wanna jump) both sides on the top and both sides on the bottom. with your backpack you can only rain paint effectively on one side of the bunker while the other side is completely free. but lets just say you can cover both sides... what if the opposing player takes a knee? Then it's just a random game of whack-a-mole for you while you are posting on the opposing player from the same exact spot. So the person you are trying to shoot can be mobile while you are just sitting in the same spot... sure you can take a knee but the other player knows you're gonna be stuck on that side of the bunker unloading paint onto him. So if he snaps there are two choices for him while you have to worry about 4-5 locations where he can pop out from.

weight isn't THAT much of a factor but it will slow some of you guys down that aren't use to carrying a case on your back. So diving or any hard sliding is out of the question for many players and then we have the problem with breaking the paint in the backpack from a dive or a slide. (which can be solved with foam lining on the insides) But your front players will be slowed down and if they do dive they have that nice big hose to worry about when you extend your arm to keep your gun from smashing into the ground...which reminds me, how long is the hose going to be? The hose supplying the paint needs to be flexible yet strong enough to withstand a lot of harassment from front players.

sollutions? what if you only equip only a small portion of your team with the backpack? 2-3 shooting off the break would have the backpack while the rest of the players have packs. The problem with this sollution is that your front players must stay alive because if they don't all you have are a bunch of immobile players posted on the opposing team's front players while their back players start posting onto you.. then you're pretty much bananas.

What happens when the player is prone? you would need some sort of spring powered... thing pushing the balls into... whatever is going to be used to shoot the paintballs through the hose.

I can imagine this being used in the woods but i can't see it being useful in a fast paced game

[Arson51]

Most of you are saying this and that over and over in many forms, but stop and think there isnt even a product or prototype made, you are all arguing over phantoms!

Sure if this thing was motor driven it would use batteries, sure if it was built complicated it has a chance of breaking down, sure it could be really heavy, sure some idiot out there might try to superman slide with with it on so rabidchihauhau can have some one to make fun of, but as of now everything said will be irrelevant untill some one decides to resurrect the ProMag or build a new product.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tournament/zapam98/newprod/index.shtml

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

the majority of my arguement was how the use of such a product would benefit a team. so far the current strategy to shoot someone in and keep them in won't work as well as some people think

[FooTemps]

Okay, so usually the highest capacity of a back player is in the 1000 ball range right? Right. If this is the case then we just make what should be needed a 1000 or 1200 ball count system will be plenty for a game. You just need strategy to make sure the pack lasts.

The strategy would basically be "Move and don't stop shooting". As long as a player is pinned, he's blind. If your whole team is pinning someone down, then the opposing team is, for the most part, blind. That means you can pretty much walk up to your opponents and bunker every one of them as long as you don't get too focused on your target since the oppoenet's teammates can still come to his rescue.

[rabidchihauhau]

There are so many tactical options that 'look' good on paper but don't survive in the real world under the 'fog of war'.

RR Fireblade made an interesting, technical point. If you're hosing at 15 bps, and the game lasts for 5 minutes, you need to enter the field with 4500 rounds loaded onto each player (because you can't determine the time the game will actually last.) That's two and a half cases per person.

Stowage for that much paint requires a litte bit over 1 cubic foot - NOT counting hose, batteries, motor, whatever.

It also weighs approximately 40 pounds, again, counting paint only. (And yes, it will slow you down - any additional weight slows you down, that's why the field and track guys go with the lightest uniforms they can get away with...)

I guess I wasn't clear before when I said if you're laning constantly, I know where you are and you're gone. What I meant was this:

1. there's a little thing in paintball called 'blind shooting' - and its legal in tournaments. I don't have to see you in order to shoot you - I just have to know about where you are.

2. there's a little thing in paintball called a sacrifice move. The opposing team makes one sacrifice move, the hosers are out of position and the whole thing falls apart.

3. there's a little thing in paintball called 'wiping' - nuff said on that one.

4. There's an infinitude of locations to shoot out of from every bunker on the field (not just the 'five' mentioned in another post); any good player knows that as long as the ball is hitting somewhere they aren't, they have a shooting opportunity. One of the most comforting things on the field is being in a front bunker that is being continuously pounded on the same spot, or in the same pattern; there's one opponent who's action is known and telegraphed - and that's one player I don't have to worry about.

5. You are RARELY, if EVER, going to know exactly what bunkers the other team is behind on the break, RARELY if EVER going to be able to coordinate all of your players to put only one gun on each opponent and you are going to have a GREAT deal of difficulty communicating changes to each other over the din.

Hosing has its place, and well places shooting can pin players, but there are still gaps between the balls down field (even at 15.3 bps or whatever it is), people will still find a way to move, and aimed shooting is still what eliminates players.

Its a great fantasy, but saying it won't work doesn't mean I'm thinking 'in the box', it means I've BEEN in the box and I know it won't work.

[germanman]

I thought of this a while ago after i saw the tippman asault vehicle with the minigun. I thought of mounting a backpack, but i never had the resources for it. Now that I'm living in Vegas and have lots of free room/time. So I'll get to work!!! :headbang:

[Arson51]

There are so many tactical options that 'look' good on paper but don't survive in the real world under the 'fog of war'.

RR Fireblade made an interesting, technical point. If you're hosing at 15 bps, and the game lasts for 5 minutes, you need to enter the field with 4500 rounds loaded onto each player (because you can't determine the time the game will actually last.) That's two and a half cases per person.

Stowage for that much paint requires a litte bit over 1 cubic foot - NOT counting hose, batteries, motor, whatever.

It also weighs approximately 40 pounds, again, counting paint only. (And yes, it will slow you down - any additional weight slows you down, that's why the field and track guys go with the lightest uniforms they can get away with...)

I guess I wasn't clear before when I said if you're laning constantly, I know where you are and you're gone. What I meant was this:

1. there's a little thing in paintball called 'blind shooting' - and its legal in tournaments. I don't have to see you in order to shoot you - I just have to know about where you are.

2. there's a little thing in paintball called a sacrifice move. The opposing team makes one sacrifice move, the hosers are out of position and the whole thing falls apart.

3. there's a little thing in paintball called 'wiping' - nuff said on that one.

4. There's an infinitude of locations to shoot out of from every bunker on the field (not just the 'five' mentioned in another post); any good player knows that as long as the ball is hitting somewhere they aren't, they have a shooting opportunity. One of the most comforting things on the field is being in a front bunker that is being continuously pounded on the same spot, or in the same pattern; there's one opponent who's action is known and telegraphed - and that's one player I don't have to worry about.

5. You are RARELY, if EVER, going to know exactly what bunkers the other team is behind on the break, RARELY if EVER going to be able to coordinate all of your players to put only one gun on each opponent and you are going to have a GREAT deal of difficulty communicating changes to each other over the din.

Hosing has its place, and well places shooting can pin players, but there are still gaps between the balls down field (even at 15.3 bps or whatever it is), people will still find a way to move, and aimed shooting is still what eliminates players.

Its a great fantasy, but saying it won't work doesn't mean I'm thinking 'in the box', it means I've BEEN in the box and I know it won't work.


You seem to be the one living in a fantasy world, you keep trying to say that once a person puts on one of these imaginary backpack loaders, they will automaticly be possesed and be forced to fire 15 bps non stop the whole time, trying to lane.... You also keep saying that each player including the front and mid men must carry one of these units, and must carry over a case of magical paint which weighs 40 lbs. If the back players in your fantasy world had brains they would use the ability to fire their entire pack of paint w/o reloading, to their advantage, playing using their brains, normal tactics, and not being AN IDIOT!

[rabidchihauhau]

First of all, my fantasy world doesn't involve paintball or paintball players...

Second - I'm responding to the original "proposal" of this thread, which described giving all players such a system and firing non-stop to pin in the opponents.

If you want to discuss attempting to use such a device in the manner you described, why not just ask - "hey, how about modifying the original tactic like this...?" - instead of attacking me?

As for fantasy worlds - you keep yours and I'll stick to mine.

[VFX_Fenix]

Just some food for thought here.

140 rounds of paint weighs ~17oz (that's close to a pound for anyone keeping track, weighed it on a postal scale with a tared pod)

A full case of paint (2000 rounds) weighs a shade over 14lbs. 4oz.

As has been stated before, any ammount of weight added to a player decreases their mobility by adding inertia to their body which they are not accustomed to dealing with. If you need some proof, try doing 40 yard dashes with just your cloths on then try it again with your pod pack, gun, mask, etc.

As also has been mentioned the backpack would most likely increase profile and weigh, most likely at a minimum of 2lbs. (Number based on the weight of an Evo II which weighs ~2lbs.).

Tactics involving suppression and subsequent manouvering on suppressed players would most likely prove usefull however it is unrealistic to believe (as has been mentioned) that each player will be able to put in their "target" for an number of reasons up to, and including, players lost off the break (either their location being unknown or actual elimination of players on either side).

Strengths:
Greater shooting capacity
Relocation of traditional hopper to reduce gun profile
Loss of "down time" durring reloads
Possible increase in mobility of the gun due to loss of weight contributed by the hopper (could be rendered null depending on how restrictive the feed hose is)

Weaknesses:
Increase in player body profile (possible depending on how the backpack is actually shaped will determine the total increase in profile)
Increased number of systems to malfuction
Limited mobility options to preserv integrity of the system (i.e. avoiding actions such as diving to limit paint breakage inside the system)
Vulnerability of the feed hose (similar problems exist with the Warp Feed)
Vulnerability of snagging the feed hose (one of the reasons remote lines were abandoned)

As in all things there is a trade-off. Outright saying "It wouldn't work" isn't exactly constructive (however I would tend to agree with that assesment). Considering the nature of game-play at this immediate juncture, and considering probable techniques which could be employed by this system to take full advantage of the firing capacity. I believe that it is possible to devise a strategy which could be used effectively against certain styles of play.

The weakness I see in most of the strategies that this type of loader system would tend to favor is that those teams which either tend to rely heavily on speed/mobility or defensive/lock-down/non-gunfighting strategies would have a practicle advantage. The reason being that if your opponent team plays lock-down ball well it will be difficult for your players to get into position to put them out of position because they never directly expose themselves to the firepower than this loader system would offer. Teams with rely on their mobility will have the real possibility of out manouvering the team members which are using this type of system allowing them to position themselves such that the 'pack wearing members' positions are compromised and subsequently eliminated.

The stregnth of this system will lie with teams that are apt to gun-fight and enguage in direct confrontation. This allows the 'pack wearing players the freedom to post on their opponent without reguard to how much paint they have left in their hopper and this also greatly reduces the weakness of the possible increase in player profile as most gun fights happen head-on. However this also could bring to bear the weakness of the feeder hose which could concievably remain in the line of fire when the 'pack player tucks back in.

Ultimately this system, while it has its merrits, can be overcome in the event that it did ever see the playing field. Because of the dynamic nature of the sport any advantage that can be gained can also be countered either by a team gaining the same technology (electronic guns/loaders/etc.) or through the development of specific strategies to overcome or reduce the effectiveness of an innovation brought to the playing field.

I do not see this loader offering a significant advantage to any team using it in the long run, the inherent weaknesses in the system also make it less than desirable (at least to me) for even everyday use. The system itself would work and is at least a viable idea. The increase in weight isn't necesarily an issue given the ammount of paint that some players currently carry on to the field however the relocation of the weight may actually help with mobility by placing it on the back as opposed to the hips, however this is open to debate.

All in all the idea is novle, though (again as others have said) I don't see it going anywhere simply because of the lack of "cool factor". If the pack could be designed in an attractive manner this could change, however so far as what I've more or less invisioned as the PTP pack loader, I don't see it catching on.

[tolley]

VFX_Fenix summed it up nice. Players do already carry 500-1000 rounds on there back while playing. If it worked right and looked okay it would sell regardless of whether "everybody" wanted one or not. I know I would at least try one.

[Lenny]

I know it's already been said... but I SWEAR I'VE SEEN ONE OF THESE BEFORE! :wow: It was about 6 or 7 years ago at this place in Ohio called Indian Springs. It wasn't like the compressed air one stated a million times, it was almost excactly like a warp. I remeber a JT label on it (or it could've just been a sticker put on by the owner, but it was like this little jewel... hell, I don't know). The guy was using two older spyder compacts (the greyish ones), and they both had a bottomline. The pack was clear(ish) and had 2 warp looking things (a bit bigger and wider than real warps) and 2 hoses to feed the guns (ya, he used them both in games). I'm not sure about any sensors, but I assume it had one (or 2). It ran off of 4 9vlts or 3 D cells or something like that. It was pretty cool. It was only about 6" off his back, so it wasn't as far back as some harnesses can be. The thing was pretty damn heavy, though. He let me try it on. It wasn't bad, really, once properly strapped, but it was definately more noticable than the Brass Eagle 2 pod carrier I was using then.

It worked pretty good, he never had any starvation problems :shooting: or any noticable disfunctions, and the batteries lasted all day (don't know how long they really lasted though). He had a cover for it (camo) for during play. It was a real pity that he just plain sucked, though. He'd litterally sprint to the center, grab the flag (center flag), and try to belly crawl through the center to hang it.

He was pretty decent at elimination games, though... (ya, he got me square in the but once from, like, 10ft away. Hurt like a mother :cuss: !)

Oh well, I don't think this is a bad idea at all, it worked for him. I don't think it'd sell though in the fast paced world of the tourney scene, but maybe to rec ballers, or scenario ballers...

It's SOO crazy though! I haven't thought about that day in YEARS! Whatever you guyses argument or standing, thanks at least for brining me back to my noobie years of paintball. I sucked, but I still had fun. :cry: