AGD needs some Feedback on this Ad

[AGD]

Everyone,

It is late and I am thinking up stuff to put in the two page add we have in PB2xtremes magazine. I was thinking about something simple and came up with this. Let me know what you think and if you have any more people or posts to add to it. If you don't like it sugest another idea for an add.

www.automags.org

Where among the 3000 members you can meet :

AGD, aka Tom Kaye Airgun president (1000 posts and counting)
AGD_Jon, aka John Comprado Airguns senior phone tech
Shartley, the guy who makes the coolest sig pics
Graycie, the only woman who gets cover shots AND puts on tournaments
Major Damage, the guy with the craziest online personality, ENDO!!
Ricerocket, aka Manny, front man on team Aftershock who might tell you a thing or two about playing pro.
Battlegroup, who gives us updates from Afganistan when he’s not piloting his attack helicopter.
Army, who maintains the military big guns and blows stuff up!

And in the posts you can find:
The contest that got Jeff Bouquio’s name on the back of every Intelliframe package.
The post that generated 1700 replys in two and a half hours.
How to intellifeed your mechanical Mag.
The science experiment AO members supplied data for that could change paintball.
Find out what a trap door feed is.
A lot of people that don’t own Mags.

What you won’t find is:
Flames
Bad manners
Dissing other guns or people.

[Tunaman]

Bravo Tom...You have some keen marketing skills! I love it!:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Thordic]

Its Major Damage who says ENDO

Its Jeff Bouquio, no T :)

Other than that, its ok. Personally, if you are trying to hype big names in a magazine, people don't care who "Rice Rocket" and "Graycie" are, but they do care who Manny, Amy, Bill Mills, etc, are. Some might even care who Simon is ;-)

Its 6:21AM, I just work up, I have to turn the contrast way down or I can't even look at the monitor, so I can't really come up with some better marketing text, but if you'd like, I'll drop you some ideas tommorow in this thread.

I may mostly write hype for people who build sewerage treatment plants (well, mostly), but hey, like one of the engineers once told me "Sludge is what puts food on your table and money in your pocket". Hype is hype :)

[Omicron]

great pictures of emags and stuff, with warp in the background

[rifleman]

Looks good to me, I'd add something about "Tom's Tech Tips"

[Dave]

I am liking it a lot. There should be some emphasis on the scientific aspect of it, like the tech tips, like Rifleman said. Also, don't forget "Rob_AGD, who can answer any question about your mag and then some" :)

It would be good to also add that there is the Tech forum and the Classifieds and Friendly corner like:

Looking to meet a friend or two? Come check out our friendly corner.

You need sound tech information for your mag? Talk to the AGD techs in the Tech Forum

Need to find special part for your mag? Try looking in the Classifieds


Something like that would be helpful.

Also, try to emphasize the non-mag atmosphere as well...as you said you won't find 'dissing other guns or people'

You have to give guys with cockers and other guns a reason to check this place out, so it would be good to keep that in mind...if you decide to do a two page layout...try putting a huge tricked out mag in the main area, and then maybe a cocker or an angel in another part of it so people who own other guns than mags can feel free to come and visit.

I definitely like the idea!

-Dave

[Manuel_FZR]

Dave: This toolkit is the coolest ever seen :D :D *rotfl*

[Prezents]

all looks well but this one sentance.


"Dark Phoenix, who is gives us updates from Afganistan when he’s not piloting his attack helicopter."

the part that is "who is gives us"

[graycie]

Looking to meet a friend or two? Come check out our friendly corner.

that sounds like a personals ad. maybe something like "want to talk about things besides agd, check out the friendly corner"


You need sound tech information for your mag? Talk to the AGD techs in the Tech Forum

also add in warp feeds and flatlines


another thing you can add is "find out what tom's got on the workbench, agd news and contests,etc..."

[mrhooie]

AGD, aka Tom Kaye Airgun president and amateur photographer/star gazer (1000 posts and counting)


I think that fits well :D


I like it Tom, you'd be the first to really promote a web based message board

[Wheelman]

You could take everybodys nicknames on the site and incorperate them into the background of the ad. (okay I'm just looking for ways to get my name in a magazine)


Wheelman - A guy who's always there whether you want him there or not(maybe, well....ok maybe not)

[Thordic]

<p align="center"><b>Mag owners, feel like you can't get the help you need from
pro shops?<br>
Players, ever wonder what the deal was with AutoMags? <br>
Have you ever been curious about that funky-looking Warp Feed? <br>
And just what the hell is that new Angel-looking Mag? </b><br>
<br>
<br>
<b>Get these questions answered, and many more, at:</b> </p>
<p align="center"><font size="6">www.AutoMags.org </font><br>
<b>The OFFICIAL AutoMag Owner's Group</b> <br>
<br>
Owned and operated by Tom Kaye, owner of AirGun Designs and the rest of the
AGD Crew,<br>
Automags.Org is THE place on the net for AutoMag information. The forums are
regularly <br>
visited by such professionals as Tom Kaye himself; Jon Comprado, Senior AGD
Technician;<br>
Rob Hoover, AGD Satellite Tech and member of J2; Bill Mills, owner/operator
of WarPig.com;<br>
JJ Brookshire, creator of SPPLAT; Manny from Aftershock; Amy Low from the Fallen
Angels; <br>
and MANY more. <br>
</p>
<p align="center"> While you are here, take a look at Tom's Tech Tips, a great
section where Tom Kaye posts his own <br>
personal findings about how to maximize your performance with ANY marker. <br>
<br>
Discuss anything and everything paintball in our General Forum. Read about Tom
Kaye's R&D projects, <br>
special offers, tournament news, and contests! <br>
<br>
Get your troubleshooting questions answered in our Technical Forum, where AGD
technicians and other <br>
knowledgeable people are around to help you get your marker, AGD or otherwise,
working like new.<br>
<br>
Learn things you never even dreamed of in the Deep Blue "Think Tank" forum!
<br>
Discuss everyday issues with friends in our Friendly Corner, where you can talk
about anything from<br>
the latest football game to how cool your new car is.<br>
<br>
Sell your old gun, or buy a new one in our Classifieds forum, where great deals
abound on all sorts of <br>
paintball merchandise being sold by our members! <br>
<br>
The best thing about AutoMags.Org is the atmosphere. Our friendly and helpful
moderators make <br>
sure that your online experience is always positive. You won't find any flames
here, just great<br>
information and a lot of fun. </p>

[Thordic]

Spacing crapped out between Dreamweaver and the boards, but you get the idea. Its just a short writeup, took like 5 min.

If one of the mods or someone with better HTML skills/more time on thier hands than I do wants to make that fit better, I'll delete the original post, it is kinda longish looking :)

[thei3ug]

... how come i'm not listed? :( I thought I was an integral part of the AO team. I represent the slackers and teams that don't win tournaments, after all.

[gimp]

How about you put pictures of the fantasy-emags in the background. Have it so that you only see them when you look close.

[Tunaman]

Well! THORDIC gets a gold STAR! Nice work Boy!:D :D :D :D

[Wheelman]

I represent slackers and losers too

[graycie]

Originally posted by Thordic
Amy Low from the Fallen Angels

i recently quit the fallen angels

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by Thordic
...And just what the hell is that new Angel-looking Mag?
Avoid ever using the name of the competition. It just looks like you are trying to play "catch-up".

Other than that, it's great.

[irbodden]

This is a joke right? AO would be pretty scary if it ever got that big. BTW if you were to make an add I would only list the techs, and industry folk who visit the board, not any of the regs.

[Thordic]

Amy - didn't know that, but thats easily changed.

Ben_jd - Just a rough draft, I wrote it in literally 5 minutes. If Tom actually likes it, that line could easily be changed or replaced.

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by graycie


i recently quit the fallen angels

How convenient. My team just had an opening. Wanna join?

[cphilip]

An AO Add?...love the concept. Been noticing the AO flier in with the stuff I get from AO lately. Good perpetual advertisement idea. Get em here and then its like a continuing Add campaign. It works. I love it. I'll leave the details to everyone else but the whole idea is great.

(Oh...sorry just realised that sounded like a major suck up...I take it all back! j/k;))

[Failure]

What about cphilip and miscue? They need honorable mentioning as well. Sorry BlackVCG You too man.

[BlackVCG]

Tom, I edited the few things Thordic mentioned in his first post. Like changing it from Major Ho to Major Damage and Jeff Bouquio's last name. Also, it's Battlegroup, not Dark Phoenix that flys the SH-60B Blackhawk's.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16559

[zvanut]

looks good....... but im not in it :) j/k lol

[ben_JD]

I also advocate that I be listed (in the small print of course) as AO's general counsel!

I think it's a great idea. Those people who want to come and flame will probably fade out quickly and those who need and or will contribute to this group will be a welcomed addition that may not have found us on their own.

[Vegeta]

Originally posted by AGD

A lot of people that don’t own Mags.



HAYO!

We need to get a poll going to see actually how many out of the 3000 people actully own mags... not me... ut soon.. soon my friend..!

Good ad tom.. and thordic

Deep Blue is/was (when it was Fight Club) one of hte most innovative things I have seen about paintball on the net... where memebrs can actually brainstorm, interact, and get feedback from many many knowledgeable people .. and even Tom himself. I haven't seen Kingmans President over at he Spyder groups discussing new bolts and feeds latley (j/k.. never been to their foums.. but I know for fact from others he hasnt... dur..)

I really wish Deep Blue could get going again.. I know theres a ton of people on these forums with ideas and knowledge about new things in the sport...

[Russ]

I don't get why you feel the need to advertise AO. Just stick with all the new products that are coming out.

Just my .02 cents...
Russ

[Tack]

I think it is a hell of an idea. Everywhere I go, I pass tell people about AO. This would bring a lot of young and old players to the board that didn't know about it before.

Thordic, That is a good add. It is classy and informative. I don't have too many ideas about the back ground but if Tom wanted to actually do something like that maybe there is another contest in the making, hint, hint.
;)

[zads27]

I don't think it would be that effective using people's AO handles are, but definately put the most widely known paintball people, and different topics, tech tip teasers, etc,.

I think you should put E-mags with polished/black powerfeed hopper left, centerfeed, warp feed [w/attached warp feed] bodies on one page (with loaders to show the difference.
On the other page put SFL E-mags, one vert body, one powerfeed, with attached 4500 flatlines, then maybe the new superbolt at the bottom. (all with the proper captions) Then, at the top, use those comparison pictures of the warp feed profiles coming out of a bunker.
I guess it's a lot for one ad, and you probably thought of all these ideas, but these are the visions of what I would put.

[Speedy]

I liked both ads! I quite frankly am not a very creative person I am more mechanically inclined but they both looked great. There are a lot of people that play paintball who need a place to go and the more that come here the more business tom will have.

I bought an e-mag because of this board.:D

[Dave]

Thanks Manual...I got a kick out of it too.

Graycie-Now that I think about it, your right, just change the words. Some how get across that it is a friendly place to talk about whatever w/other AOers.

what would be cool is a black background for the whole thing....then in very subtle grey, barely noticable, include on one page in the background the Fantasy Emags, and on the other side, AO member list in tiny print...remember, hardly noticable, but readible if you look close. Then have a huge red or blue X-treme Emag on the front comin' at you w/warp. Kind of like in LoadSM5's sig, how the front of the gun is bigger, to a perpective picture like that....then list all the cool stuff about AO. Definitely get a catch phrase to begin with...something like:

"When's the last time the president of your gun's company answered your question about *insert new AGD product in development* ?"

"Come on board with Tom Kaye and his host of AGD techs to hear the latest news about the most radical advances in paintball and add your opinion to new product feedback still under development!"

Somethin' neato like that. The product development feedback on this forum is incredible.

-Dave

[Vegeta]

Wait.. i had a similar idea a few days ago.. Tom Kaye... on a billboard.. with a Mag.. with WWW.AUTOMAGS.ORG at hte bottom! He could be wearing one of his mavelous Blue AGD T-Shirts!... or.. the rarely seen AGD sweatshirt!

[paintdevil1]

the idea of everyones name in the background was good I like it

[Vegeta]

Maybe do this, with the names of member is the BG:

[ThePatriot]

Definetely, im with Vegita...we arent trying to sell Emags with this ad..why put one in the background, what we are trying to sell is a friendly forum with alot of nice people and a good atmosphere, therefor put all the names of someone registered..I KNO, make a thread asking who wants their name on the ad...whoever replies gets their name on it, and whoever doesnt, doesnt get it put on there...

[shartley]

I am caught between a rock and a hard spot on this issue.....

First of all, I get PAID to do this type of thing. So offering ideas is giving away services for free.

Second, it is hard to be honest about what I have read up to this point without offending anyone. I personally think asking for opinions on AO for even a AO Ad is the wrong thing to do. AO should be used to see what people like... by studying them and reading their posts... but asking the general membership to "assist" in this is a bit on the foolish side. Again, that is just my opinion.

I could say NOTHING and I would be kicking myself in the rear for NOT saying anything and watching Tom run an amateurish and substandard Ad (to say the least). Or I can say something and get attacked personally for stating professional opinions. What to do..... here goes....

The only thing I will say about what I have read so far is that I would not let any client of MINE run an ad like it.

How about this? You take the idea of the average player and the pros, toss in Tom Kaye (the big cheese)... what do they do.. they play paintball. But what do they do when they are NOT playing paintball? They are on AO!

The idea for the Ad is to gain membership, right? So you have to make them WANT to come. You have to highlight the selling points of the Site AND Forum. Some of these things were already mentioned, but they were not SOLD, they were listed. There is a big difference.

Also, I would not make it a two page Ad... but if you were going to use two pages, make one for Automags.org and the other for Airgun.com. If it takes you two pages to sell someone on the idea to come visit AO, then you didn't design the Ad correctly.

An Ad is to entice the reader to do something else, buy something else, or go someplace else. It should have enough information that it is clear what the object is, but should not be more than can be read quickly. It is an Ad for Christ's sake, NOT an Article. ;)

With that in mind, envision a two part Ad split visually diagonally.. one side primarily being player and action shots, the other being Computers and the Internet. You can even show various Ages of people, some on laptops, some on desk systems, but ALL going to Automags.org. You can even show Tom himself typing on the forums! You can even have some of them still in paintball gear.

Then in comment boxes you list the fantastic advantages of AO, its great features, and why so many have chosen AO as their source for Paintball help, advice, assistance, and extended families. Blah blah blah

You can also have a comment box listing some of the Industry Leaders, Pro Players, Forum Regulars, and yes the Moderators. This gives them more of a reason to visit, and when they get here, they already feel as if they know you. They are familiar with some of the most active names, and the AO Staff. You know.. gives them that warm and fuzzy.

I always encourage my clients to use elements that their clients or customers would see if they went to their business IN their Ads. This makes people feel as if they have already been there, and not so much of an outsider... again, the warm and fuzzy. So seeing screen shots of the actual forum (or actual photos of someone using the forums) makes it so that when they DO go to the forums they know they are in the right place! :D

You have just begun what is called BRANDING. And this is almost as important as the Ad itself.

Also, what you actually use in the Ad for copy is important, and even more so is not using TOO MUCH. Get them interested, but make them COME to AO to learn more. And it should be arranged in a manner that guides the eye from topic to topic, not a simple laundry list of names, topics, and "selling points". It should be as visually appealing (if not more) as it is informative... and TEXT does not inspire the reader to look at the ad.

Just pick up any mainstream magazine and look at the full page ads you see. DON'T look at the ones in Paintball Magazines! Looking to how others in the Paintball Industry do things has been one of the major downfalls of the industry itself. You will never expand unless you stop looking at the same things.... and things that have just not been working the way they should, or even close to their potential.

These are just a few things to think about. More goes into an effective ad, than just coming up with the right text. There are reasons things are done, and not done. And if you don't know WHY, you should not be making the Ad, or giving advice. Good intentions and nice people don't make an effective Ad.... a professional does.

And I have only touched on a few issues. I did not get into colors, fonts, additional layouts, camera angles, or any of the slew of other issues that MUST be taken into consideration for this type of thing.. if it is to be done right.

I know, this was not a totally "feel good" reply... but Tom did not ask for just rear kissing comments. And if he is truly serious about this, he should think seriously.

Also, if you do not agree with me, fine. I have no problem with that. But I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear comments on what people think of me personally, or any attacks they feel they need to make. I did not insult anyone, nor did I attack anyone, and I expect nothing less in return. And the only reason I even say this is that far too often it happens.

But I DO warn folks... if the Ad is effective, expect problems.... and I will leave it at that.

[MajorDamage]

HOO HA! That rules! I'm gonna be in a magaziene! I AM THE KING! MAJORDAMAGE RULES!!!! Oooooooh, I RULE! lol *I am talking in a boastful voice at this moment!*

ENDO!

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

sheesh took me awhile to read all that... but yea everything he is saying is true the readers should be "invited in" dont say people's names they wont know (unless its me :) ) use the pro's names and of course yours tom, show pictures not a mass of text like i just got done reading (tho nicely laid out and spaced so i could stop and take a breath :o ) LISTEN TO THIS GUY HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS SAYING (shartly not me i have no idea where i am half the time anyways :p )

[Vegeta]

The pic I attached was a collaboration of the peoples ideas. howeve I dont think it should be that way... I like JT's ads.. you ever see them in PM/APG? its got a picture of some player, wearing their stuff right? Well.. to tell you the truth, I liked hte one (cant remeber hte sayign that wnet with it) that was a guy, leaning out of a bunker, getting about 16 balls in the mask. They were pink. yea you ppl remember that dont ya.. anyways.. so I say we souold put excitement liek that, along with hte things good about AO...

Here she goes:
Tom Kaye (like shartley said- big cheese attraction of this site)
+Laptop with AO site up on it
+EMag
+Paintball Feild
+Getting railed by a case of paint
=
All the good stuff pus excitement!

lol

Shartley, we oughta juts let you do everything around here... first the contest now all this! your just a bowl-o-knowledge eh?

good ideas nevertheless.

[hardr0ck68]

this is an outrage!! inviting comon vermin into our church!! :p


i dunno if bring more people to the forum is a good idea, but if tom thinks its good ::shrugs:: it is mad cool that the ad may mention names of members, its just one more cool thing agd dose for its customers :D

it will be intersting to see what comes of this...

Rocco

[pumpamatic]

I don't really think we should use regular members for the ad. I mean, I think people will get disappointed when they see only a couple of weird posts by Major Damage, and I can't remember the last post I saw of Battlegroup. But when they see all those classics, with the giveaways and contests and stuff, they really will think Tom gives a rat about them.
Shartley, my brain now hurts from reading your post.

[Vegeta]

We oughta just list all the stuff tom has done for us / gave away... like the z-grips.. and nubbins.. not to mention all the help... and also all the people on here that are tech certified or just know a ton about mags...

[Failure]

What you should really be concentrating on is selling that emag Tom, and advertise the X-treme Emag. Just put the airgun.com and automag.org addy's on the page. Sales should be coming first here. Without advertising, you have a lot less sales. Build up the Emag, give some away, boast its performance....we all know it out performs other guns toe to toe. Sell it. The website should be in the ad but it isn't as important as staying in business. There are like 5 different versions of the Angel, there should be more Emags. There should be more recognition in the players minds about it. Everyone always says angels, shockers and bushy's...never Emag. I don't think that the Emag is getting the recognition it needs and deserves.

[pito189]

What post generated 1700 replys in 2 and a half hours??????

[AGD]

Guys,

One thing is certain, I can always count on you all to load me with feedback! Sorry for the typos, it was late but I wanted to get something on so I could read about it tonight.

Again, because I suck at marketing, I am confused about what to do here. You gave me the 90% go with it response that I look for BUT Shartley makes an excellent point that you don't see text adds in major magazines for a reason.

On the one hand I should just advertise the Emag and do what others do to sell product. Tell them "faster than a speeding bullet, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" (this was from the show Superman in the 60's). Give them a flashy pic and nice fade job and we go to town.

On the other hand I know that one comment from someone you trust can change your whole perspective. Many times this is the salesman behind the counter and in our case he is often saying "we don't have that stuff". The AO group here represents a collective consciousness that is hard to ignore. I know if I came here as someone looking for info on markers I would ask "what's the difference between the Emag and the Angel?" and look at the responses. In checking them out I would focus on WHAT TYPE of responses I got. Where they intelligent or zealots? Did they back up their statements or just repeat what they have been told? You get the idea.

I am also worried that because we are going so strong here all the other Mag forums have diminished. We know the obvious answer but to people on PBN it proves that Mags are dead.

If I just thought about it emotionally I would take out a multi page add and put EVERYONE'S nick on it in a giant list with automags.org at the end. That to me would be the same as having all 3000 of you raise your swords on the field and give the battle cry!

I am pretty burned out from this scenario game so I know it’s not a good time to make any decisions. We will continue the discussion when I get back.

Thanks!

AGD

[ThePatriot]

Guys...Guys...guys....Tom came up with this idea, now AGD is a big company..im sure if Tom didnt kno how to market he wouldnt be where he is today, but the matter of fact is he DOES kno how to market things, which explains the automags success, and im sure this was his idea, so let him do it, we have never tried marketing things before(with the exception of lord shartley) but he hasnt marketed paintball "stuff" to my knowledge, so lets let tom do what tom wants....plus calling his idea bad is gonna piss him off, making us no longer get free things for doing nothing (IE: superbolt contest) so let the man decide

[zads27]

Text ads don't really work unless you include visuals. Pretty colors, etc,.

Idea:
1 page ad for E-mag, SFl, superbolt, 4500s, what have you.

Second page:
All you freeloaders out there that won stuff for free on AO (E-mag contests, RT Pros, Superbolts, Warp feeds, etc,.)
Why don't you send Tom pictures of you and your free toys that you won on AO (well, don't send them unless Tom gives the ok.. I don't want to be responsible for Tom getting a bunch of unwelcomed email), then make a collaboration of photos or something, some good caption (Here's a lame one: "Automags.org.. on what other forum can you win all these free doodles?"), which takes up half the page.
Then below maybe Tom puts a picture of his Marker Dyno with Marker X in it, and a picture of the high speed/super mini cameras, with a paintball in the barrel, or coming out of the barrel, something like that. Then another good caption ("Automags.org.. where else can you find free REAL technical/scientific information about paintball products?")

Well, so that's my little idea. Appeals to people looking for a new marker, people who like to look at pretty markers (well, don't we all..?), people who like free stuff, people who like to learn scientifically proven facts- rather than hype, it advertises the AGD products, as well as Automags.org.. what do you think?

[shartley]

ThePatriot
LOL Your Post was funny. :D

From you-
Guys...Guys...guys....Tom came up with this idea, now AGD is a big company..im sure if Tom didnt kno how to market he wouldnt be where he is today, but the matter of fact is he DOES kno how to market things
But then in Tom's actual post above yours, he wrote this...
Again, because I suck at marketing...

He used to have someone on staff that did Marketing, but really the Automag's success has to do with its quality, not its marketing. We have had THAT discussion many time here on AO. :D

Also you said-
so lets let tom do what tom wants....plus calling his idea bad is gonna piss him off, making us no longer get free things for doing nothing (IE: superbolt contest) so let the man decide LOL That is REALLY funny. :D Tom did NOT want a love-fest over his idea. He wanted HELP. If you are worried that telling Tom what you think will upset him and he will stop being nice to you, how is that helping him? Trust me, telling Tom an idea of his is not a good one will not cause him to be mean to you, or to AO.

And finally (but not actually the last thing you said)... you stated -
we have never tried marketing things before(with the exception of lord shartley) but he hasnt marketed paintball "stuff" to my knowledgeWell, let me expand your knowledge ;)... I have marketed things for the Paintball Industry. :D And I have said time and again here on AO how thinking the Paintball Industry or its products fall under different Marketing Rules, Guidelines, or Standards is one of the things that keeps the Industry as a whole down. I touched a little on that with my other post. So I will not get into it again. :)

But as always, people are free to either use my advice, or simply pass it by. I don't mind one way or the other. My clients do though, and they see the benefits as well as why I say what I do. :D And please don't think you can say you don't like something about AGD, AO, Tom or any of AGD's products. It is HOW things are said that is important, and all information is important, not just the "good" stuff. Tom not only expects that, but relies on it. So yes, Tom wants people to be honest. :)

[ThePatriot]

Shartley...Tom and I, we bost posted at the same time, i looked and the last message i saw was pito189 asking what contest got so many posts in 2 and a half hours...then when i posted it and came back later...i then noticed Tom's post above it, so if i had known about tom's post mine would be much different, and i am very glad to see you found my post amusing..o and my little dont piss off tom thing was supposed to be a joke, you thought everything of my post hilarious except that, you were to busy pissing your pants in hysterics at the whole rest of it that, u didnt realize my tom not liking us was a joke....

O and shartley, im sorry i didnt read your whole other post, i never do, they are to long...details arent needed, i prefer the short and to the point, you shouldda been like...i do this sort of thing as a job and well your wrong tom, i know what to do and you dont..bow to me TK, I OWN U...now that would of been interesting

[shartley]

I hope you did not take offense, I really and truly did not intend any. But I hope you can see that if you read the posts in the orders they were posted in, it is a bit funny.

My Wife said you probably wrote it when Tom was writing his (as you indicated) and I thought so too... that is what makes it even more funny. It is like tossing up a coin and seeing both extremes flash by, but not knowing which will land face up. :D

And I only mentioned about the upsetting Tom thing because there seem to actually BE people who think like that here on AO. I hope you understand. :)

[rifleman]

Sniff...Sniff...
Is that smoke I smell?

Easy guys, kinda ironic how your acting in relation to a post that is trying to "attract" people.

[ThePatriot]

Its ok shartley, i unlike many people, can take a flame and turn it into something funny....even if you were making fun of my post i dont mind at all, its all in good fun. Kinda like when your friends make fun of ya, its not as bad as some total stranger, and everyone here on AO is my friend...i think, anyway no harm was done with the original post, i was just trying to be a pain in the arse in a funnyish manner, (pissing your pants in hysterics) if you get what im sayin

And rifleman...this thread itself wont attract anyone, plus u kno violence and controversy sells things....look at the WWF(violence)...and its one of the biggest companies in the world, makes billions a year.....we got the Jerry Springer theme goin here, o and a quick question to whoever knows, i sent an email to someone via AO, how would i check if i had any email feedback? does it get sent to my actual email acct?

[shartley]

Yes, it gets your actual E-Mail address along with the e-mail you sent. They will respond back directly to your e-mail account. :)

And sorry, I was not intending to flame you, nor did I flame you. :D And I do not want to be a part of a Jerry Springer "theme".. this is actually a very important topic for Tom. :)

[ThePatriot]

Yes and since tom was working very hard..why not let him have a laugh or two? the man deserves it...he was probably up all night debating this, right now hes sore from paintball and hes got a nasty hangover from those caffeine pills....Tom....we love you man(we being the entity that is AO)

[Tbone]

Good idea for spreading AO. Whenever I go to the field, I bring some index cards and a pen to write out http://www.automags.org and distribute it to all the automag owners. :)

[Vegeta]

Hopper stickies too people!
I have one I printed out onto some sticky paper and put on my hopper (Its on a M98.. but .. hey.. this forum is waaaay to awesome to leave just becuase you don't own a mag right?). Now you walk on the feild, win so horribly like all the AOers do.. then they come to congradulate you.. and they see you have a AO stiker on your hopper.. and think .. "hmm.." and thats all it takes.now after a few months, that person now has all their friends and teammates on AO, and he decides he wants a hopper sticker. the process starts all over again, spreading out in a web.

And also.. what would make alot of tunred heads.. Goggle Skins.. if you ahevnt heard of them.. the site is www.tacpro.com . Squeegie at www.paintballzone.com works there and he showed us how easy it was to make em... Now, say AO made a design, and say about 550 Aoers bought em, well, thats 550 little advertisments all over the US...

[irbodden]

AO Gear would be a better idea in my opinion. How much does a 2 page add run for in any large scale paintball magazine. Why not invest that money into a run of AO gear, I know we covered this before, but I personally belief its a much better idea. Not just "Paintball" stuff either, make things people would wear around town like an Automags.org lanyard for their keys, nice trendy flexfit hats, etc. . The great thing about this idea is you get money back for your investment which could be thrown back into the market in another form. Look at the A0 patches, people are going crazy over a PATCH.

:cool:

[graycie]

then we can all have blue denim shirts like TK!

[Miscue]

Oooh. AGD Gear. I'd love to have AGD plastered all over me. :)

[sajohnston]

Gotta go with Sam's angle on this one, a picture is worth a thousand words. Anyone who disagrees is also the guy lying to himself when he says "I get it for the articles." Yeah, right. ;) One page would be enough, but two would be straight out of hand!

Most of the big things have been addressed already but here are my two cents:

- The focus is on the website not the products so stay the course with this focus.

- Include a blurp about the number of countries the members represent (global presence)

- Emphasize that it is a direct line from customer to manufacturer, members get to provide direct feedback that shapes cutting edge AGD products and the industry in general.

- Soon to be factory direct store.

- AGD factory tours/tech seminars (I hope you have another when I get back to the States!!)

Just give us a heads-up of what issue it will be published in, it is hard for me to get ahold of them here.

[Dave]

Personally, I would be decked out in AGD hat, shirt, patch, etc. :) But I don't think that just having people wear stuff would be the only route to advertising AO, cause then its not just the patch or the shirt representing AO, but the person too. I think the clothing is a good idea, but I also like the idea of the magazine spread.

I think it might just be that I am a mag lover, and if I would see a big blue X-treme Emag w/warp on the ad, I'd be sayin' "oh yeah, thats my company!":)

Maybe thats just me...cause I hardly ever see a mag in a magazine, so when I do...I think its pretty cool. Plus, I don't think hardly anyone outside of mags knows what the X-treme is...I could be wrong from such limited experience, but whenever I am around, I never hear anything about "this new cool Emag from AGD coming out!" which is too bad cause the gun rocks harder than anything out there. I showed the X-treme site to my friend, and he didn't seem too interested, he likes spyders. Now if he saw that gun in person, got to hold it, and saw it fire, his jaw would probably drop:)

I think combining a nice colorful picture of the X-treme plus advertising AO would be sweet....I'd take it and show it to all my buds. Your getting top cutting edge AGD products(X-treme)+top AGD service and commitment to mag users and fans(AO)

Somehow, if it was good for the company, and if people were attracted to the ad, I think that would be the best.


-Dave

[Failure]

I feel that the forums will always be here, even though there aren't very may problems with the guns. Shartley does know what he is talking about so he should be taken VERY seriously. I for one could care less about my name being shown in a magazine, if they come here they will meet me anyway right, and if not then they still wont know who I am. The Emag should be promoted as should the fantasy emag(When it comes) and the Emag X-treme. I feel that the fantasy mag should have the looks, some milling on an all aluminum body, maybe the aluminum valve, have it be lightweight. If there is have there be a lightweight battery. You see where I'm going with this? Very lightweight compact gun with gorgeous looks. Maybe have a DarkEmag?? I feel that the reliability strongpoint of AGD should be exploited by a gun that looks like a million dollars but costs less than an Angel. AGD stickers, shirts, jerseys, hats, keychains, and dog sweaters should be considered because hey...its cheap and effective. Someone wearing an AGD jersey on the field will turn a lot of heads. People will ask the kid that wears an AGD jersey how he likes the gun instead of a biased shop owner that likes Angels because he turns a better profit off of them. Those are my opinions and ideas, not backed with a marketing degree but just common sense. I also suggest investing in a very good marketing consultant, priceless, you will get a heads up on what should be getting done and what should be shown to the target market. I believe it may be, once again, time to dump the moulds and get inovative. Like when the automag first arrived.


This may also be considered blasphemy but in my opinion only, I say that the AGD logo may need to be revamped.

[tooslow]

The paintball community in general believes that AGD is either already dead or on it's last legs. We, of course, know otherwise. But let's be honest, to most people out there, AGD is a "Has Been" company. THIS is the image that needs to be overcome.

I believe that the only way to overcome this image is with slick product-focused advertising that gets people to want to go to the AGD website to see more. Once you get people to the main AGD website, then you can steer them to AO. The old "bait and switch" in a way...

Pick up any magazine, any at all. How many of the ads in it really get your attention? How many do you actually read? The most effective ad have very little text and lots of "eye candy". Nobody wants to read an ad. Hell, most people don't even really read the articles... Print is a very visual medium. And to be effective, advertising has to use this to its advantage, rather than fight against it.


Edit: I agree with Failure. The current AGD logo is out of date and out of step with the Paintball industry today. If it were me, I would re-vamp the logo before I started any new advertising campaign. This will go a long way towards a new image and the branding that should be associated with it.

[graycie]

if its a two page ad, all the space has to be optimized to its fullest. take kingman ads for example they are two pages but how much of that two pages is just a orange background filler.

keep in mind who your readers are. make your statement direct and to the point in as few words as possible. who are you trying to "sell" this site to? just a guess but most likely you would get kids wanting to come here to look for info for the next marker they saved up their allowance money for. we all know that sex sells, but i'm sorry ROBAGD in a bikini just doesn't do it for me :D taking the more intellectual side approach without sounding too geeky may be the better choice. throwing in a pic of an agd product in the background will let people know that this IS a agd ad, not just a bunch of words for a website. i hate to say this but we all know that some paintballers aren't the brightest folks, so an ad full of words may scare them ;) maybe agd could be the first to make a pop-up ad.....hmm....j/k

[hardr0ck68]

hehe if tom wants to sell mags he should go to zap am with the gun dyno set up in a way where people could test there guns recharge time vs an e-mag...if he wants to being people to AO i think a pretty pic of both agd factory gear, and maby some of the wild custom rigs from the AO members, then fit text in around telling about the benifits, members, and ideas of AO, i mean where else can you go not only to get tech info to fix a problem with your gear, but also talk to the creator and factory techs about it....crazy helpful mods, lossa FAIR trades in the classifides....it really shouldent be that hard of a pitch to make, i mean the quality of the site sells it for you (kinda like mags....) let people know how much time tom kaye actually spends here, lord i dont even know who invented the angel...and i doubt he spends much time if any on angel fourms... but special mention to members that stand out is a really cool thing!!

Rocco

[Failure]

girls in bikinis holding paintball guns does it for me :)
Especially the younger ones, 19-26

[graycie]

/beats failure with a big ol' grandma purse

[tooslow]

pop-up ad!!! I love it! A big 2 page life-size pop-up EMag Extreme! Now that will get people's attention!:D :D :D

[Failure]

Im sorry Graycie, I see women as the most beautiful creatures that God ever made...besides me of course, Heheheh. Im kidding about the last part but not about the first. I respect girls a lot but they do look very very lovely in bikinis. Next tme please take the brick out of the purse before layin the smack down!

Never underestimate a half nekid girl holding a gun!

[MajorDamage]

Originally posted by pumpamatic
I don't really think we should use regular members for the ad. I mean, I think people will get disappointed when they see only a couple of weird posts by Major Damage, and I can't remember the last post I saw of Battlegroup. But when they see all those classics, with the giveaways and contests and stuff, they really will think Tom gives a rat about them.
Shartley, my brain now hurts from reading your post.

STOP SAYIN THAAAAAAAAAT! I wanna be in PB2XTREMES! Leave me be! I want to LIVE! I read PB2XTREMES quite ofton because 888 gives them away free when you order from them :D. But the ads do make the magaziene, that and the articleeeees about markers and eqiptment. I could care less about the "How to oil your spyder!" and "10 tips for the first time player" articleeees. But I MUST SUCCEDE! Let me be in this ad so I can buy a million copies, put them on my wall, show them off at the field, and bolt them to my car :D! *does the happy dance, followed by the coconut dance* FUN!

ENDO!

[MajorDamage]

OH! I FORGOT! Don't forget to mention having APG's Mister 44, as our personal Webmaster!

ENDO!

[Wheelman]

I like the idea of a clothing line. like jerseys, hats, jackets and don't forget the offical Airgun designs and automags.org underoos WhooHoo!

[beam]

This may have already been covered...but....WHAT ABOUT US LURKERS?!?!?

[MajorDamage]

Underoos? <B>I WANT UNDEROOS!</B> One time when I was little, we went to Canada and I got some Alf Underoos!I think that was the time that I told the guys at the boarder that my parents wernt my parents but were Bert and Ernie. The guy at the boarder hadn't seen Seasame Street and thought they kidnapped me or something...hehe aint I great!?

ENDO!

[Shaft]

I don't like your ad, Tom.

A bit too cheesy. Sell EMag extremes and 4.5k flatlines and show a link to this site. Then I'd visit.

I am one of the non-politically correct few that will always lean towards the lowest common denominator. What I mean is, a picture of a hot girl would get my attention too!!!

[pito189]

Tom I would like you to take a look at this. I borrowed pictures of the automag.org patches, and the header. I didn't use them for anything else just this. Wasn't to sure about Rob's last name. The header would be bigger, but I could not find a larger one. It would go from patch to patch across the top. Then the print could be bigger.

Thanks
Pito189

[pito189]

AD

[ColdFusion]

good job dude that is a great add

[shartley]

I don't quite know what to say....... :rolleyes:

[manike]

If people go to autmags.org will they find this page? ;)

You might want to try proof reading your ad, lol, there is an 'o' missing.

manike

[pito189]

LOL oops!:rolleyes:

[pito189]

Well you get the picture it's just a suggestion. It would be proofread in the final.

[irbodden]

Spill the beans Shartley, bring some sense to these poor saps. ;)

[graycie]

looks like any other paintball ad to me

[pito189]

What ad does it look like?

[Muzikman]

Ok...here is my idea...it might be stupid but it will get people's attention...

Black background...
Big Bold Letters across the two pages...

WWW.AUTOMAGS.ORG

This will stand out to the people just flipping the pages. It will make people interested in just what "WWW.AUTOMAGS.ORG" is. People will come just out of curiousity. I've seen similar type ads and I know these are the ones that catch my eye.

[shartley]

This is a "concept" or VERY rough draft for demonstration purposes only. I would probably work up several different styles and concepts. I am not getting paid to do this, so I could not devote much time to it. It does however give a "feel" and general direction that could be taken.

Of course the actual verbiage would need brushing up, discussions on exactly what points would be best to use as drawing factors for the site, their advantages and disadvantages, etc. This concept is very active yet only on a visual level... it does not overload the reader with information, but attacks their visual senses... like a fast paced game of paintball.

It uses "undersell" to make the viewer want to check out the site. You don't need to give ALL the information in your ads... in fact that can kill the interest level you want to create, by giving too much.

It also keeps to the classic AGD/AO colors. This again creates the branding effect needed in advertising and marketing, and the smooth flow from the printed ad, to the website. This causes that "warm and fuzzy" that was discussed earlier.

Again, this is NOT a final copy, nor even close.. just a concept. It shows only ONE style, I would probably work up several styles. Also, your design can change depending on what side of the page it will be placed on... right and left page designs can be developed to take advantage of the inner fold and outer edges.

Designing an effective ad takes much more than just grabbing a couple things and slapping them in a given space. And there are reasons why things are done, and NOT done.

Well, I have to get back to MY work. But I hope this shows that real thought and effort should be put into any marketing... because it DOES matter. And again... THIS IS A CONCEPT.. not what I would actually use. It is used to help spark ideas, and aid in planning of the actual ad.

[manike]

I like it :) It kinda reminds me of a WARPIG.com advertisement I've seen somewhere...

manike

[shartley]

manike
I am sure it does.. unfortunately there is nothing that hasn't been done already. LOL

This style is not my favorite, but has that stacked and unorganized (yet actually IS organized) look used by the younger gen stuff. I like the smoother, more integrated styles personally. But this one works as a point of conversation, and idea sparking for the process.

That is why having several styles and then discussing them with clients, and tweaking them TOGETHER with the client, helps bring it all together. I always shudder at the "concept" stage... LOL I am just way too picky. But you have to start someplace. :D

[Muzikman]

Hmm...no picture...

[PBchopR]

That's good stuff Tom, but I would refine someof the bullet points down to a short list. I think that some focus should lie on resources, technical or otherwise. It's that level of support and involvement that makes AGD the most talked about company in paintball. The confidence that the public has in AGD products and services is tremendous, based in large part on the concept of giving end-users a forum to interact with staff on a high-level. Great Job!

[Failure]

The Ad is good Shartly but its really busy. Me being a fan of minimalism, I would do it differently if I had the skill you have. You should also bring up the fact that the Emag was 'created by a player for the players'. I feel that the ad should run 2 pages...one focusing on the SFL Emag and the other on the classic emag, the one posted as an example for the fantasy emag. Black backgrounds, saturated colors on the pictures of the guns. Have the guns portrayed in a fashion as to accent their curvature and natural sexiness. Give them a 'floating look'. Forgive my vocabulary here, I know nothing about ad presentation or graphic arts. But something more cutting edge so-to-speak. Something sophisticated and clean looking. Not too busy. Make one page advertising the guns and the other advertising the forums. Lets be honest, the guns put food on the table, not the forums. Maybe note that there is a contest going on now, that would attraact more people than just the ad alone. I do like the screenshot of the forums and the heading at the top. Very nice.

[shartley]

Failure
Thank you. And if you read my other posts you will see that I agree with much of what you said. The Ad sample was designed to spark the types of comments you gave. It gives people something to use as a direct reference point.... Just like you did. :)

"I would take X and do Y with it, and then slide W under B.. etc." :)

I hope that noone thinks that is anywhere close to my standards for a finished copy... LOL I tried to stress that in my other posts. :D This is a beginning point, and for only ONE style (again, not my favorite style). I would NOT run that Ad even close to what it is now, but it gives ideas. :)

I am all for "helping", but I am sure most would agree that it would be silly of me to work up an actual Ad Copy. I have probably done more than I should have already.

[Failure]

Thank you Shartley and I hope you didn't take my opinion as criticism, it wasn't meant to be. I just feel that the target market of gun buyers in paintball is a more juvenile crowd. That should be taken into account. This may be an opportunity to get it going on the 'good foot'. Advertisement is key to making good business. Take Intel for instance. They advertise all over the place, this is why everyone knows of them. The averagre Joe computer user has never heard of AMD, suprisingly because they make superb products. If they advertised then they would be in a lot better shape. I feel that Tom should give you a call and do some discussion, if its feasable :)Having nicer ads brings about the feeling of a company that is doing very well in the industry. Anyway, advertisment always pays off in the end. Look at Garden Burger, the veggy burger company. They ran a commercial during the Super Bowl last year or the year before, can't remember. They paid so much money for the time slot that if they didn't get the recognition they would be hurting very very badly. Needless to say that a 15 second commercial raked in a 500% increase in sales there after.

[shartley]

No.. I did not think you were criticizing the work. LOL I just wanted to make sure people did not think I was saying THAT ad should be used... quite the opposite, ....or that it was an indication of what I would consider finished copy, because that would could not be farther from the truth. :D

I tend to be more critical of my work than anyone else anyway. :) I took no offense at your comments.

[shartley]

.... just a quick example on how the SAME elements arranged a bit differently, and colors changed can give a new "feel". And again, this is taken from a design I don't really care for.. but shows clearly that even at that, with some tweaks, it can head in a different direction pretty fast. And this is STILL in the same basic style, but reduces the "cluttered" look even more.

And take this a step farther, and you get the idea. :) Not to mention scrapping the whole thing and going with another look. :D

[MajorDamage]

But Shartley...Where's my name? :( I want my name in there! :D, Ive told bunches of people "HEY! I'm prolly gonna be in a magaziene! TOM SAID!" or somin like that, lol.

ENDO!

[shartley]

LOL Sorry... how about this? But now it looks like a magazine cover. :D:D:D

[Jeb_Hoge]

Originally posted by Shaft
I don't like your ad, Tom.

A bit too cheesy. Sell EMag extremes and 4.5k flatlines and show a link to this site. Then I'd visit.

I'm agreeing here. I think it's noble to want to present AO as a top-notch online gathering place for paintball players, but you're advertising a free, zero-profit website and hoping to get sales by association. Use your ad space and dollars for the equipment first and foremost, and secondarily include the AO web address and just a few buzzwords; make it into a graphical element of the overall page. People will come here of their own interest or curiosity, not because you list off names of people who post here and why the public should be interested. It sort of sounds like name-dropping, really.

Maybe I'll knock some ideas around and find a way to post 'em.

[shartley]

Jeb_Hoge
I also tend to agree that the PRODUCT is more important at this stage in the game. If you were going to run two pages... sure run an ad for AO and one for the Product(s), but if you were to run only ONE ad.... AO would be my second concern.

But whatever he (Tom) decides to run, it should not be thrown together, but be carefully planned and designed. I kind of think Tom might be trying for the "If OA has so many Members, AGD's products HAVE to be great!".. and this angle would work nice with two ads in the same magazine... even if not next to each other (separate is better in this case... you want them to see you twice by flipping, not two ads with one flip).

Again, I have not talked to Tom, nor has he contacted me about it... so I don't know exactly where he wants to go with all this. I guess we will all have to see...

[zvanut]

i like them shartley,

all of them :)

[MajorDamage]

Perfect Shartley! Now add my universal calling card "ENDO!" and I will be styling! lol!

ENDO!

[Failure]

That was funny Shartly, Lol. Major got his name in the headlines. Im the same way when it comes to anything that I do. It will never be perfect to me no matter how many times I redo it. I think the phrase is being anal (retentive?). Or more commonly termed perfectionist.

[Wheelman]

I like that one, straight to the point. I don't understand why people keep saying it need advertisments for the E-Mag and flatline etc. I've already seen plenty of two page ads for AGD's markers and there great, but they aren't trying to sell them here (other than in classifieds) They are trying to sell a website. Shartley shows that, if Tom wanted an ad for AGD than filling up an entire page with E-mags and what not just might be tolerable.

[Shaft]

I don't want AGD to sell the website directly. Sell it by association.

If the Matrix people had an ad for a forum where I could speak to Matrix techs, the Matrix president himself and so on... well I wouldn't check it out. I don't own a Matrix gun so I wouldn't feel compelled to go to a forum about them.

If the Matrix folks had an ad for a new gun and some other gear along with a brief mention of some site called matrixnewstuff.org or something then I'd be more compelled to visit.

Thus why I feel AGD should stick with marketing the guns.

[shartley]

Shaft
Good points.... that is why IF Tom runs an Ad for AO, it should be clear that AO is MORE than just a forum for AGD Products... sure that is the focus, but it is much more. I think the contests, other interests, etc. is the selling point.

I can think of many sites that I have visited just because the Ad looked nice, or was compelling.... even if I did not own the product or planned on owning it. It is the curiosity aspect that draws... then you hope the actual site (or forum) finishes the "sell" for you. (Like I tell folks... I can get them to pick up your product(s), but YOU have to make sure it is worth them KEEPING it.)

I am very happy to see more thoughts coming from people. It is refreshing. :D

Personally, my only real concern is not IF Tom runs an ad for AO, or his Equipment, etc., but that whatever he runs be done correctly and EFFECTIVELY. That is why I will stay out of the "Should Tom run an Ad."... and stick to "If he does, it should be done right.". :)

[BobCon]

Ok I might as well throw my two pennies in:
How many PBers actually buy/read Magazines ? Instead of one or two page Ad how about one big poster Sent to all Fields and Stores The Center of the Ad being a tech pic of the extreme. All PBers like to look at guns and see how they work. For any Ad to work it has to get to the intended market. A poster will be around a lot longer than any Ad in a magazine. Although the expense will be higher it will last Years in some places as opposed to days

[pito189]

I believe a lot of paintballers actually buy/read magazines. They are usually a great source of information, if you don't mind it being alittle outdated, and mostly about tournaments and big games.

[sajohnston]

Ever since Tom's first post and reference to a SH-60B Blackhawk as an attack helicopter a small fire has been growing deep inside...

You see there are only two Attack Helicopters in current service: the mighty AH64 Apache and the proven AH1 Cobra. Calling anything else a gunship or attack helicopter is blasphemy! A helicopter that seats more than 2 is a glorified taxi; Any helicopter that has trouble getting off the ground with seven rockets and a minigun is a scout guy with "barrel envy!"

Glad that is off my chest! Remember: Friends don't let friends fly Lift!

BTW a SH-60 is a "Seahawk" most commonly used for Anti Sub Warfare, etc. We have a detachment of These "LAMPS" birds out of Japan we operate with from time to time.

[FaSSt]

Originally posted by sajohnston
...A helicopter that seats more than 2 is a glorified taxi....

What about the Mil Mi-24? You may see a few wrecked ones around Afghanistan.

[Failure]

That thing looks like huge fly

[sajohnston]

That thing is the pig boat of pig boats. The first ones were so underpowered they lacked the ability to make coordinated left turns (staying in trim which requires tail rotor authority at low speeds). The fact is that you can hang guns on a dump truck and call it a gunship, but it is still a dump truck.

The Hind IS A GOOD multipurpose aircraft in its current configuration. By this I mean it can do a number of missions (cargo, lift and close air support) reasonably well. But in effect it does not excel at any of them either. Its weapons are Vietnam era, meaning their guns/rockets don't receive much guidance assistance, sensors are poor and they still predominantly use wire-guided anti tank missiles. Because of ordinance or provisions for it it is limited on passenger/cargo space.

The Russian Helicopter I would love to work out is either the KA50 (single seat) or KA52 (tandem seat) HOKUM (aka Alligator). Basically an anti-helicopter helicopter. Very cool indeed!

[Shaft]

See Tom,
Folks would rather duct tape machine guns to a dump truck than look at that ad. ;-)
Maybe you should work that into it.
r