Is the Dead Man Walk Really that big a deal?

[SlartyBartFast]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=531615

Should Dead Man's Walk be Illegal?

How does AO feel? Ties in with the MANY threads we've had about rules and their enforcement that seem to degenerate into flamefest between the usual suspects and agreement (but no suggestion for plan of action) amongst the level headed that better refs and rules enforcement are required.

Is the general attitude as childish on AO that poor enforcement of one rule (how to signal an elimination and leave the field) should be replaced with an ambiguous rule banning an illdefined behaviour or is justification for breaking or eliminating another rule (bonus balling)?

[cdacda13]

I have never seen someone try that at my field.

[Blazestorm]

The thing about dead-man walks is... there is no such thing.

You are a.) eliminated or b.) not.

If a person chooses to leave their bunker, that's their choice. But people not to shoot him when he DID NOT single he was hit, then that's something different. He's still a live player, he never signalled he was out, so how is this different than any other move in paintball? It's less aggressive and you're moving backwards? I unno.

What I hate are people who pull fake deadman walks.. I witnessed an AM Player (playing in a Nov/Rookie 7man) get shot... he sticks his gun up, ref shoves him to the deadbox, he never pulls the armbadn though, his players tell him he's clean, so he goes running back against 6 kids (YG's playing in siad rookie/nov tournament, they won) who shot him up, he claims he was clean, blah blah blah. I saw him get shot up, the ref saw him get shot, but according to his team he wasn't hit... -_-

[-=Squid=-]

You deserve to lose if you fall for a dead mans walk. Therefor, it should stay.

[Blazestorm]

Everytime I've gone to a tournament around here it's been pulled... only a few times has it been successful :)

[shartley]

If you follow the rules, it is impossible to get away with. If I see any player who is not exhibiting the official signs of being marked out, I shoot them. If they are indeed out, then I apologize and suggest that they follow the universal signs of being marked out so that it does not happen again.

So, no, I have no problems with it and don’t consider it illegal. It actually makes for an easier target. :shooting:

:dance:

[Blazestorm]

In a 7man national tournament you see a couple guys walk out of their back bunkers, you assume they're dead, and most teams don't bonus them, rather grab the flag and run back to their side. There's a pretty good video of exile vs. naughty dogs on force of nature where an exile player actually TELLS the ND player to get out, even though he doesn't signal, he runs out and no one on exile shoots him, he waits till they get closer and some get past them, shoots all 3 of them, one of them turns and shoots back ( 5sec after he's dead) and they pull a 1 for 1 pulling the last guy. Leaving the ND player clean to run back and hang the flag...

[Lohman446]

It is specifically illegal and defined by NPPL rules

[shartley]

It is specifically illegal and defined by NPPL rules
Um….. I don’t play any NPPL events. ;) Seriously though, just because one league may have a ruling on something does not mean it “is” or “is not” one way or the other. More so since the majority of paintball is being played in places other than any particular league.

I have never been on a field that it was in fact illegal to do. But with that said, I would abide by whatever rules were in force wherever I am playing at. I would not however DO it if it was legal or not…. It simply isn’t my style of play.
:cheers:

[Lohman446]

Um….. I don’t play any NPPL events. ;) Seriously though, just because one league may have a ruling on something does not mean it “is” or “is not” one way or the other. More so since the majority of paintball is being played in places other than any particular league.

I have never been on a field that it was in fact illegal to do. But with that said, I would abide by whatever rules were in force wherever I am playing at. I would not however DO it if it was legal or not…. It simply isn’t my style of play.
:cheers:


I should have stated more. I'm not against the dead mans walk, I meant to state that some places have specifically made it illegal. I have actually pulled it off on rare occassions, and I think its hilarious to see

[hitech]

In a 7man national tournament you see a couple guys walk out of their back bunkers, you assume they're dead, and most teams don't bonus them...

If they haven't signaled their elimination then it's not "bonus balling". Personally, I think it should be against the rules to not properly signal your elimination. :wow:

_____________________________________________
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Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant (http://www.kercon.com)

[Blazestorm]

Yes, but because they're already dead in your mind, it's the general thought to just ignore them.

[hitech]

Yes, but because they're already dead in your mind, it's the general thought to just ignore them.
One of the reasons that NOT properly signaling your elimination should be against the rules.

[Caffiend]

I voted no, it should be legal. I like the way Mcot2 put it "Ive only seen it work a few times, but its exciting, and a quirk in the game. Just as baseball has its hidden ball trick. Notice no teams do it, but every once in a while someone does it and it works and its all over the sports pages."

I do agree with hitech and his idea that NOT signaling your elimination should be illegal. Although I think it'd be a tough one to enforce...

[master_alexander]

i didnt think this really existed... my friend told me about it and in a rec game i tried it and it worked. i was gonna ask a ref if i can say dont shoot. i think that that would be funny. kind of...

[Jaan]

Maybe around 1996 ESPN broadcast some games. A lot of people were just hearing about paintball for the first time and it was a good way of checking it out. It was kinda cool how a lot of people started watching the games and getting into it. Well, one of the last games in the series was (I think) All Americans vs Paraplegic Turtles. Some dude did a dead man's walk and ended up winning the game that way. I didn't get to catch the game when it was on, but the very next day everyone was talking about it. Everybody (who didn't play at least) thought it was a lame move.

Sorry, but that just sticks out in my mind. It was a time where the game was starting to get really popular and people were interested in learning about the game and it made some people think players were just punks.

[BeaverEater]

i pulled a dead man walk, 5v5 with some of my buddies. I just stood up from behind the bunker i was in and walked across the field. I never signaled that i was out and was surprised it actually worked. I walked to their back standup and shot them all.

[athomas]

It should be legal only if there is a way to indicate a live player. Arm bands indicate a live player. Therefore, if armbands are in use then the deadmans walk should be legal. If a ref doesn't grab the armband of the player, then he is live until it is gone. Without the live player indication, there can't be a legal deadmans walk. Otherwise, there is careless overshooting (just in case).

I voted it should be illegal. It does take away from the spirit of the game.

[68magOwner]

i did one, came down to a 2v2 in finals at a toureny, my teammate was out of paint, both opponents on the saem tapeline, so, rather than try and gunfight both, decide to jur try and run through em. Get to the first guy, shoot his hat right off his head, then shoot in the face, keep running, he shoots me in the back ~15times, as the 2nd guy comes out of his bunker/sees me. I put gun down, stop running, start walking towards deaxbox as if im out. At this point a ref walks up to me and wispers "you shot that guy first, your still not out" which, i knew, but, dont think he should have told me, not his job. Anyway, the guy starts to run past me to go get my teammate, as he runs by, lift up gun, blow him away. The croud started screaming at me, not knowing wtf was going on, the refs started screaming at the croud, the other team started screaming at me, i/refs scream at them, and, in the midst of it all, my other teammate just walks up, grabs the flag, walks over and hangs it like nothing happend. So, got bombarded walking off the field, everyone wanting to know wtf happened, everything was preety hostile for a while (this was in the finals, so, prizes on the line, not to mention that was sort of a rival team). But, in the end, most people figured it out, and the other team ended up oppologizing (sp) for how they reacted (preety much wanted to have a fight then and there). Good times. Yes, it was a shady move, yes i would be upset if it happend to me, yes it won us the game, no, i dont regret it.

[BD_Paintball]

a kid tryed it when i was playing in the woods but he also put his gun slightly in the air. no one shot him so he pulled the flag and the refs stopped the game. we later said the we saw him just walking to the flag with his gun slightly in the air, so the owned yelled at him alot and i have not seen him there for about 2 years. i think it should be illegal or else i am going to start shooting every one that i see who does not have their gun VERY high in the air, and that will just start problems.

[Lohman446]

I was playing with my phantom once and the owner of the field was on the other team. I walked (legally) past his entire team, I even stopped and helped one tech his marker, then turned around and sat in his bunker. I asked him if a dead mans walk was legal and he jsut looked at me with one of those "why... darn it" looks. I told him to stay in and walked off field. I proved it could be done, even to him, and I did not suffer the bonus balling the rest of the day for it, just had a good story to tell.

[RusskiX]

Ugh, this has been beaten to death already...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122510

[warbeak2099]

Hey, as long as they're not out then it's fine. They're just standing up and walking backwards. If you can pull it off, it's cool. You're still following the rules.

[VFX_Fenix]

The problem I have with the Dead Man's Walk is that it eventually encourages bonus balling everyone walking on the field during a game, hit or not.

Ask just about anyone if they like getting shot while they're walking off the field and I'd be willing to bet they say they don't.

It's a courtesy thing, not that the Dead Man's Walk wasn't/isn't a valid tactic, but it degrades some of the structure that paintball already has in place concerning shooting people excesively.




Woo... 500th post....

[cris8762]

just shoot them into the deadbox....problem solved :shooting:

[VFX_Fenix]

The average customer at the fields I've been to/worked at doesn't apreciate being shot after they've called themselves out. One of the reasons the field I worked at had a rule specifically against the Deadman's Walk and putting paint on players when they're walking off the field.

Remember, you're talking about the average Joe, not Tourney Ballers/Experienced Players. Tourney guys expect to get a few extra when they're walking to the dead box, it's almost amazing to me when I don't catch some extra paint on the way to the dead box. Experienced players also understand that mistakes are made and you do get shot from time to time strolling to the side-lines ater you're out. Average Joe rental can get really pissy about just accidental shootings much less being on the recieving end of intentional paint. A few people complaining about getting shot can carry some weight, word of mouth travels rather quickly when it's bad news.

Consider that tactics like the Deadman's Walk are rarely if ever used successfully in any environment apart from Rec games. Tournaments (NPPL/XPSL) have very specific rules against the Deadman's Walk and overshooting. In the Recreational game arena you see players of all experiences, Newbs have a hard enough time figuring out when to leave their bunkers some times after they've been shot/called out because they're afraid of getting hit by whoever was shooting at them before. Newbs also are learning the game and should be given an environment where they aren't encouraged to shoot players leaving the field because; 1) They may light someone up pretty badly without meaning to 2) It reinforces their fear of leaving the field and 3) the environment on the field becomes just that much more hostile, and that hostility can leave the field of play as well.

The point of rules is to make things safe, fair and fun.

[dolphin1823]

If by deadman's walk, some one is walking across the field with there gun up in the air, only to get behind the other team and start shooting, that shoud be illiegal because every field's safety briefing I've heard says; when your hit, you raise you marker up yell HIT, or OUT loudly put your barrel plug on and walk off . If I see some walking thru the field not meeting this description, then their a target.
But if you decide to, instead of running like a bat out of hell to a bunker, your going to casually walk, with your marker down, across the field and nobody shoots ya, should be perfectly leagel. I've done it a few times :ninja:

[Evil Bob]

There's a pretty good video of exile vs. naughty dogs on force of nature where an exile player actually TELLS the ND player to get out, even though he doesn't signal, he runs out and no one on exile shoots him, he waits till they get closer and some get past them, shoots all 3 of them, one of them turns and shoots back ( 5sec after he's dead) and they pull a 1 for 1 pulling the last guy. Leaving the ND player clean to run back and hang the flag...

Load up that video and watch it closely starting at the 3:04 mark, that's when the whole DMW gig starts. At 3:09, the ND player does clearly signal he's out, his marker comes out from behind the bunker first and its over his head. As he starts to stand up, both his hands are clearly up over his head. Once he's upright and starts starts walking, then the arms come down. Its pretty quick in there, but if you watch closely, you'll see it. Additionally, at the 3:10 mark as he's walking away, he's clearly hit on his right butt cheek. The truely sad thing here is a clueless ref is standing there watching the whole thing and doesn't take any action. Keep an eye on clueless here through the rest of the sequence, he just wanders around, its pretty evident that's he's an unexperienced ref and really shouldn't be out there. The head ref (guy with white towel) yells at this very ref repeatedly to "pull that guy", the clueless ref's hesitation it quite evident, he really doesn't know what's going on or what he should be doing. On top of this, the head ref doesn't even bother to check the ND player as he would have seen the paint on his backside, instead he just ignores that player and focuses on the exile guys the ND player just shot out. There was a huge argument after the game was over, the event head ref was called over and it went on for a good 15 minutes.

What's really really sad here is this DMW was totally unintentional, the player actually thought he was out, he even later said he felt the hit on his backside and was pissed that he got bonused after he was clearly out. When he reached his dead box, one of his teammates said quietly "you still have your armband on" but sadly you can't hear it over the exile players yelling to sweep the area in the vid clip, but it was heard by two of the exile players that were near the flag and was brought up to the head ref when the argument broke out after the game was over. At 3:18 you see the ND player stop walking towards the box and raise his marker, he looks semi paniced when he looks around at 3:19 and at 3:20 he starts his shooting spree.

It wasn't a DMW that won the game for ND, it was piss poor reffing.

-Evil Bob

[FSU_Paintball]

I am opposed to dead man walk because it encourages tons of bonus balling if you know it can happen at your field. Might sound like a wussy opinion, but I don't feel like getting eaten up every time I step out of my bunker because some assclown pulling a deadman walk put everyone on edge

[sbpyro]

As a rec player I get a lot of elminations by sneaking behind the opposing team and either tapping ppl or get close enough that I can't miss, so I'm all for the Deadman walk. However I do not condone lifting up the marker and doing so (that is an indication that you are out). I also do not condone of using eliminated players or recycles as moving bunkers. I got into a huge argument with another player because I see him walk in the ranks of recycles and proceed to eliminate 6 players. The deadman walk is around because ppl are forgetting the fact that unless there is a raised marker the player is still in. All the fields I go to state that when you are elminated. Raise the marker for a couple of seconds to let ppl know you are out. If someone is out in the open with their marker down, now barrel cover, and or obvious breaks, then they are still active.

[Spartan X]

When your playing for money it's all about winnin g. If it's legal and it can help you win do it. If your just playing a rec ball game, then don"t be an ***.

But again, if it's legal, and there in money on the line, I see no reason why not to.

That's one reason I have shyed from tourneys, it's all about money and not the love of the game. When money is on the lione, people loose focus about having fun and not pulling cheap stuff.

[TheTramp]

I am opposed to dead man walk because it encourages tons of bonus balling if you know it can happen at your field. Might sound like a wussy opinion, but I don't feel like getting eaten up every time I step out of my bunker because some assclown pulling a deadman walk put everyone on edge


I agree. I don't like the hassle I get from having to shoot anyone who isn't clearly, constantly indicating that they're out. Too many times I've shot someone who had called themselves out and was leaving the field but just didn't have their gun over their head.

I'm not so fired up about being in the "right" that I want to deal with the grief that eliminated players dish out when shot. Justified or not, it's not worth the time for me.

With that said, especially during scenario games (where the dead mans walk is used constantly) if I ask if you are out and you don't either say yes or indicate that you're out I'll just shoot you to be sure.

When it come to ambiguous calls I follow this rule: If you give anything that could indicate that you're out and then try to be tricky and say that your gun wasn't all the way up or something, I just discount you from the game. This means that if you shoot me I won’t pay attention to it. I'll probably shoot you back to get you to go away but I won't leave the field and I’ll tell others to ignore hits from you.

[Jack & Coke]

DMW in Tournament = ok, but like a baseball player who turns his homerun trot into a dance that shows up the pitcher... expect one in the ear next time (i.e. bonus ball).

DMW in REC = poor sportsmanship = high probability of ill will = increased occurance of mystery bonus balls. There exists a certain level of trust, respect, and good sportsmanship that keeps honest, fun-loving, non-malicious players from overshooting someone who is trying to walk off the field.

DMW is an act of disrespect by taking advantage of an opponent's good will to not OVERSHOOT.

[SlartyBartFast]

It wasn't a DMW that won the game for ND, it was piss poor reffing.

Hmm. Yes and no.

In all rule books the responsibility of calling an elimination is the player's not the ref's.


But, then not giving penalties for not calling themselves out is back full circle to bad reffing...

:argh:

[Caffiend]

I thought the orginal question referred to NPPL, PSP, NXL tournaments, in those I think the DMW should be legal. In rec play it's definately not in the best interest of the players. At the fields around here, most if not all have outlawed the DMW for that very reason.

[Blazestorm]

Load up that video and watch it closely starting at the 3:04 mark, that's when the whole DMW gig starts. At 3:09, the ND player does clearly signal he's out, his marker comes out from behind the bunker first and its over his head. As he starts to stand up, both his hands are clearly up over his head. Once he's upright and starts starts walking, then the arms come down. Its pretty quick in there, but if you watch closely, you'll see it. Additionally, at the 3:10 mark as he's walking away, he's clearly hit on his right butt cheek. The truely sad thing here is a clueless ref is standing there watching the whole thing and doesn't take any action. Keep an eye on clueless here through the rest of the sequence, he just wanders around, its pretty evident that's he's an unexperienced ref and really shouldn't be out there. The head ref (guy with white towel) yells at this very ref repeatedly to "pull that guy", the clueless ref's hesitation it quite evident, he really doesn't know what's going on or what he should be doing. On top of this, the head ref doesn't even bother to check the ND player as he would have seen the paint on his backside, instead he just ignores that player and focuses on the exile guys the ND player just shot out. There was a huge argument after the game was over, the event head ref was called over and it went on for a good 15 minutes.

What's really really sad here is this DMW was totally unintentional, the player actually thought he was out, he even later said he felt the hit on his backside and was pissed that he got bonused after he was clearly out. When he reached his dead box, one of his teammates said quietly "you still have your armband on" but sadly you can't hear it over the exile players yelling to sweep the area in the vid clip, but it was heard by two of the exile players that were near the flag and was brought up to the head ref when the argument broke out after the game was over. At 3:18 you see the ND player stop walking towards the box and raise his marker, he looks semi paniced when he looks around at 3:19 and at 3:20 he starts his shooting spree.

It wasn't a DMW that won the game for ND, it was piss poor reffing.

-Evil Bob

The Exile player TELLS him to get out. The ND player yells "****" and tucks into the bunker further as he realizes he's about to get bunkered. The Exile player tells him to get out. Second, he did not raise his marker or hand ABOVE his head. sticking the gun in the air is not calling yourself out because what if you're trying to play your bunker tight and you're getting pinched so you point the gun up and near your head.

The ND player wasn't even CLOSE to the deadbox, watch the third exile player he shoots, HE is next to the deadbox, the ND player is not. The ND player knew he was alive, the refs knew he was alive, Exile thought he was dead. The reason he said pull another, is because the 2nd exile player starts shooting the ND player after he blatantly shot him first, so that's shooting after you are dead.

It's the cleanest example of a DMW ever to be caught on film imo. And it was pulled off flawlessly. Notice how he shoots the players closest and facing him before shooting the guy running away, he wanted to make sure nobody would have a chance to pull their gun up and shoot him. I believe that was Corey Fields (I talked to Mapp Chhim about it) That's the name I remember him mentioning.

[Paintchucker]

If they haven't signaled their elimination then it's not "bonus balling". Personally, I think it should be against the rules to not properly signal your elimination. :wow:



But if you are not eliminated, what would you be signaling? This probably works better in woodsball than on a small speedball field... We used to love it back in the day! Previous poster plays same way I do... You are not signaling that you are eliminated with gun over head, barrel plug in, or at very least your free hand on top of your head, then I am gonna shoot you... And if you have a problem with me doing that, then you and me are gonna go speak with the head ref and the owner of the field... and BTW, if you are a "dead man talking", I assume you still think you a live and will shoot you for that too...

[Automaggot68]

I'm tired,so i'll make this quick.

If you're smart enough to outwit the other team, why should it be your fault as a player?
If they cant see that your marker isn't raised and send a few your way, then screw them.

Example.

A while back at Velocity in Ramona, CA, i pulled a GREAT dead walk during a recball game. I shot ten people, made nine eliminations. One bounced, he shot back, i took cover.

The player complained, i was pulled from the game.

Every morning Velocity explains the rules, and Dead walks were not included.

Blah.

[Blazestorm]

Video shows all...

Best DMW Ever.

http://www.blazestorm.net/dmw.wmv

[SlartyBartFast]

Video shows all...

Best DMW Ever.

http://www.blazestorm.net/dmw.wmv

Is it reall a good DMW? What are the exact rules about a player signalling an elimination in that series?

The reason I ask is that the partially raised hand makes the whole thing a little too shady.

[MarkM]

Ok I have been reading this thread since the beginning and was actually the first to vote.

I voted to say no it isn't a big deal.
I have pulled numerous DMW's over the years some not so successfully but percentage wise more than 75% successful. I have never done this in Rec-ball/walk-on days nor in any Senario Game...all in tournaments both Woodland and on Speedball fields.
If I do not signal that I am out then I expect to get shot at, if I give a signal that I am out then I don't expect to get shot at (unless I have to walk through a firing lane to get to the dead box)
The so called "extra love" which is assualt since I have already been eliminated is the cause of the problem. I get sick of seeing so called pro's get hit and wander off as slow as they possibly can to stop their opponets shooting them again but their own players move up using the lane as being covered by the now elimninated teammate...the same teammate who screams at the ref for a 1 for 1 for the opponent shooting them while they are taking their own sweet time to remove themselves from the field.
I have walked away from a bunker and gone and sat on the floor outside the deadbox and waited to shoot the players now rushing past me...this particular time my marker was oozing paint and I was lucky to get a shot more than 10 feet, I have walked back from a bunker and stood at the side of the deadbox and shot the 4 players running back, I have walked forward and gained yardage. I have even from the whistle walked from the start point and right across the field stopping halfway to allow a firing lane to be used and then continued on until I got to the bottom corner, forced a surrender without firing on the corner player and then proceeded to shoot the last players from behind and the side. In all of these cases if shot at and hit I would have put my hand either up on on my head (tournament rules dependant) zero complaints would have come from me but since I got the upper hand with the players I was doing this against complaints do happen, tough it is allowed and the players allowed me to do it....it is the same as the so called "lucky shot" that I made when I hit an opponent in normal game time...yeah get real I was better than you and more accurate, I shot! I hit you! You lost!
If a tournament was to outlaw/ban DMW's then fine I won't do them but there are times when they need to be done much in the same way as you sweep a field to ensure no-one gets shot in the back running the flag back as very often there is 4 plus players onto one...is that fair...hell yes! Soes it feel good for the player on his/her own...hell no! But it is legal and allowed if that player had been forgotten about then they would have shot everyone in the back and you can bet that the majority of times when this happens it is because the numerically superior team has already called the player in question as eliminated...so by default it was a DMW.

[Evil Bob]

Blaze, you can clearly see his left hand above his head right at the 00:04-00:05 mark on your clip, his hand is siloetted on the ref's orange vest as he's hunched over on his knees and leaning away from the bunker. This occurs right after the exile player says "hand up, get out, you're dead" and you see him raise to his feet off of his knees and exit the bunker. Again, his barrel, as he's hunched over, is clearly above the top of his head, he's one handing the marker and his left hand is raised OVER his head as he turns and leans away from the bunker, all clear signals that he's out. Like I said, watch it closely again.

He one hands the marker in his right hand, this is not someone prepared to gun fight his way out, this is someone signalling they're out especially since his left hand is NO WHERE near his marker since ITS OVER THE LEFT SIDE OF HIS HEAD which again, is nicely siloetted by the ref's orange vest.

At 00:06 in your clip, he's clearly shot on the right butt cheek, the impact is clearly visible and the resulting white spot as he's walking away, he was bonus balled by the second player he shoots out at the ND flag station. Its also clearly visible again at 00:36 and 00:37 as he's walking to the dead box, this hit is visible BEFORE he starts shooting the exile players out at 00:39.

Yes, the first exile player he shoots, which is the one on the right of the screen, does shoot him lower on the leg, back of the thigh at 00:45 which is BELOW the hit he took at 00:06 and the second player he shot out coming in from the left shoots him in the left arm and on the left side of the head as he turns to shoot player 3 who's walking around the upright at the left side of the flag. The gun fight at the end happens 8 feet from the flag, which is considerably closer then your previously stated "nowhere near it", yes he's close enough to exchange words with players in he deadbox which did happen, but all you hear on this clip is the louder yelling, the rest of it is muffled.

I appreciate the fact that you took the time to edit the clip and cut it down to just the meat and potatos and put your thoughts into it to explain your point of view, I just wish you had actually watched it closely before hand and you wouldn't have wasted so much of your time on it.

You claim that the refs knew what was going on, but I beg to differ as they had a very loud argument at the end of the game about it, it was pretty evident that they didn't really know what was going on, the head field ref, the guy with the towel kept telling the other 3 refs to shut the hell and he would do all the talking when the event head ref arrived to render a ruling. This really set the exile players off as it appeared to be clear favoritism by the head field ref. There's alot more here then meets the eye as this clip only shows you part of what happened.

-Evil Bob

[shartley]

I watched it over and over…. That was NOT what I would call a legal DMW. Why? Because it was clear that the ref said “Hand up, get out if your dead.” He said this a few times very loudly. All the players could hear this, more so the ones right next to the “dead man walking”. The player then acts like he was hit and RAISES his hand. This was complying with what the ref said to do. He simply said “Hand up, get out if your dead.” The ref did not say “Raise your hand over your head if you are dead.” Or “Raise your marker over your head if you are dead.”

So by raising his hand, he signals to the other players on the field that he IS dead … per the instructions of the ref, no matter what the written rules are. And the text on the video leads the viewer to think they may actually have seen what the text told them happened. That is a trick used all the time, but it does not mean you saw what the text said you saw.

Again, he clearly raised his hand up to the level of his head, and in fact when he first raises his hand it is OVER his head. He then raises his hand AGAIN to the level of his head as he walks away. Go back and look at it again folks.

Once you make the “out” gestures, or ones you know the other players will interpret as “out” it becomes an illegal move IMHO. True DMW simply involves holding your marker down, or at your side, and walking as if you have been eliminated while NEVER showing anything close to the universal “out” signs. Once you raise your non-firing hand in an unnatural playing position (such as the “I swear” bent arm position, up to head level, or above the head) you know folks will take that to mean you are hit. More so if the ref just told you (and everyone else) do to so if you were hit.

Nope, sorry…. That was not a legal DMW in my opinion.

[shartley]

....This occurs right after the exile player says "hand up, get out, you're dead" and you see him raise to his feet off of his knees and exit the bunker. ...
-Evil Bob
I thought the ref was yelling that. Was it the other player, or the Ref?

EDIT: Yup. just watched it again..... it was the player.

SO.... with that in mind, I would still call it an illegal DMW for all the reasons posted above as well as in my post. It is clear that anyone would rationally consider the actions of the "dmw" player as signaling his being "out".

[TheTramp]

Once you make the “out” gestures, or ones you know the other players will interpret as “out” it becomes an illegal move IMHO. True DMW simply involves holding your marker down, or at your side, and walking as if you have been eliminated while NEVER showing anything close to the universal “out” signs.

I think you hit the nail right on the head here.

I still think it's not a rec ball move for all the reasons stated already but in a tournament it's fine if you can get away with it in a "legal" maner.

[Blazestorm]

Blaze, you can clearly see his left hand above his head right at the 00:04-00:05 mark on your clip, his hand is siloetted on the ref's orange vest as he's hunched over on his knees and leaning away from the bunker. This occurs right after the exile player says "hand up, get out, you're dead" and you see him raise to his feet off of his knees and exit the bunker. Again, his barrel, as he's hunched over, is clearly above the top of his head, he's one handing the marker and his left hand is raised OVER his head as he turns and leans away from the bunker, all clear signals that he's out. Like I said, watch it closely again.

Hand is not over his head. His fingers are peaking over, and his hand is next to his head, but it's not clearly straight up in the air. Like I said earlier, if someone is getting pinched they may stick the gun up next to the bunker to keep tighter

He one hands the marker in his right hand, this is not someone prepared to gun fight his way out, this is someone signalling they're out especially since his left hand is NO WHERE near his marker since ITS OVER THE LEFT SIDE OF HIS HEAD which again, is nicely siloetted by the ref's orange vest.

At 00:06 in your clip, he's clearly shot on the right butt cheek, the impact is clearly visible and the resulting white spot as he's walking away, he was bonus balled by the second player he shoots out at the ND flag station. Its also clearly visible again at 00:36 and 00:37 as he's walking to the dead box, this hit is visible BEFORE he starts shooting the exile players out at 00:39.


That is the "RASE" or Smartparts Logo from the RASE pants he is wearing. Go look at some pictures of them, they have a white SQUARE logo. Not the round hit you see later.

Yes, the first exile player he shoots, which is the one on the right of the screen, does shoot him lower on the leg, back of the thigh at 00:45 which is BELOW the hit he took at 00:06 and the second player he shot out coming in from the left shoots him in the left arm and on the left side of the head as he turns to shoot player 3 who's walking around the upright at the left side of the flag. The gun fight at the end happens 8 feet from the flag, which is considerably closer then your previously stated "nowhere near it", yes he's close enough to exchange words with players in he deadbox which did happen, but all you hear on this clip is the louder yelling, the rest of it is muffled.


Dude. He knew what he was doing, the ref knew what he was doing, he wasn't at the back center bunker (still 5-8 feet from the starting gate) and he made his move. His teammates didn't say anything to him.

I appreciate the fact that you took the time to edit the clip and cut it down to just the meat and potatos and put your thoughts into it to explain your point of view, I just wish you had actually watched it closely before hand and you wouldn't have wasted so much of your time on it.


A.) That was not a hit. B.) If the ref didn't know what he was doing, why didn't he pull the ND Player, claiming he already called out? Because he knew he was pulling a DMW. So did the other ref. If you're reffing, and a player appears to be walking out, but doesn't signal or remove his armband, you usually rip the armband.

You claim that the refs knew what was going on, but I beg to differ as they had a very loud argument at the end of the game about it, it was pretty evident that they didn't really know what was going on, the head field ref, the guy with the towel kept telling the other 3 refs to shut the hell and he would do all the talking when the event head ref arrived to render a ruling. This really set the exile players off as it appeared to be clear favoritism by the head field ref. There's alot more here then meets the eye as this clip only shows you part of what happened.

How is there favoritism? He's clean. He never signalled he was hit. He shot 3 guys clean, one guy shot back, they pulled a one for one. That is perfect unbiased reffing. There was an arguement because the Exile players just lost a game they should have won because I believe it was Corey, pulled the ninja move on them.

-Evil Bob

Raising your hand above your head. Not your fingers. Is calling yourself out.

If you wanna see even worse rules, my teammate pulled a 3 on 1 DMW because according to the rules (No armbands that day, they lost them) so to call yourself out you had to stick your GUN above your head. Hand didn't matter. Your GUN had to be up. Know what he did? Waved his hand out and waited for the shooting to stop, walked out, did the same thing corey did and waited, shot all 3 and traded with the last one. Was it sketchy? Yes. Was it legal? Yes. Same with this, perfectly legal. After witnessing this so many times, I keep my gun up on the last players all of the time. I wait till they're bands are off and they're in the deadbox.

[MadPSIence]

it should be legal as long as you don't put an arm up or anything. it's just deception, not cheating.

it's the same as a football player faking a pass..

[-=Squid=-]

Having a hit on you calls you out. I just stand up, and walk off the field, or run, that way people shoot at me rather than my teammates. Who cares about getting shot. Seriously.

Why do people whine so much about every little thing?

[hitech]

Having a hit on you calls you out. I just stand up, and walk off the field, or run, that way people shoot at me rather than my teammates.

No it doesn't. You have to signal yourself out. And that's one of the reasons I think it should be against the rules to NOT PROPERLY signal yourself out

[-=Squid=-]

No it doesn't. You have to signal yourself out. And that's one of the reasons I think it should be against the rules to NOT PROPERLY signal yourself out
Yet again: My point has been missed.

I shall explain: The point is that you shouldn't need to signal yourself out. You're hit... That means you are out. Get off the field when the ref pulls your armband. The ref doing this is the proper signal, along with the hit on your body. If you miss it, oh well, if you get shot again, oh well. It doesn't hurt, especially when comparing to other sports. Paintball players are so damn whiney.

[Blazestorm]

Squid smeaks the truth (yes smeaks.)

I could care less if someone signals they're out, most of the time you shoot them and they just walk away, it would be easier if they wave or something, because I've had times when I couldn't see if they were running to the deadbox because a bunker was in the way. And so I had no idea if he was gone.

[Evil Bob]

Raising your hand above your head. Not your fingers. Is calling yourself out.

Semantics... last I checked fingers are part of your hand, IE. he had part of his hand clearly raised above the top of his head. Please show me in the 2002 rules for this series where it defines how much of your hand needs to be above your head to signal being out and I'll concede this one to you. Additionally, he was bent over and on his knees just starting to stand up, that's about as straight as his arm is going to get as he's trying to maintain his balance with his arms as he stands. Its close enough that it should have been enforced but wasn't.

Why was the RASE logo not visible in the first couple of steps but then it suddenly appears? Also, if you watch the bunker closely, you can see where the paintball hits it just before the spot appears on his pants which is coincidentally at the very same level as this mark.

-Evil Bob

[Caffiend]

I'm not sure if he was hit or not. But he did raise his hand, close to if not, above his head. I'm not sure how many (if any) of the Exile players saw the hand above the head. I'm pretty sure at least two missed it (the guy doing the "bunkering" and the second guy the ND shoots at the end) so no one might have seen the hand raised. The player yelled "Get out" and the player did. Very nice job by the ND player.

[Blazestorm]

Semantics... last I checked fingers are part of your hand, IE. he had part of his hand clearly raised above the top of his head. Please show me in the 2002 rules for this series where it defines how much of your hand needs to be above your head to signal being out and I'll concede this one to you. Additionally, he was bent over and on his knees just starting to stand up, that's about as straight as his arm is going to get as he's trying to maintain his balance with his arms as he stands. Its close enough that it should have been enforced but wasn't.

Why was the RASE logo not visible in the first couple of steps but then it suddenly appears? Also, if you watch the bunker closely, you can see where the paintball hits it just before the spot appears on his pants which is coincidentally at the very same level as this mark.

-Evil Bob

By those "standards" raising your barrel above your head would be calling yourself out... right?

The logo is visible, I don't want to have to go and freeze more frames to prove it to you.

[Evil Bob]

By those "standards" raising your barrel above your head would be calling yourself out... right?

Now you're simply being argumentative. In the situation we have here, yes, raising your marker or any part of it above your head in the appearance of a surrender as the ND player did here (when you have both hands up and seperated) would be calling yourself out.

The reason he doesn't have his hands all the way up is simply kinematics and how the body moves. He's bent over, you can only raise your hands so far behind your head at an angle while trying to maintain your balance. Try this yourself and see how comfy it is. Now try it from a kneeing position as you're trying to stand up while one handing your marker. Not that easy is it.

The only grey area that might exist here is how we each define calling yourself out, with that I appeal to the rule as outlined for that particular series with regards to calling oneself out. Dig them up and show us all here how much of the hand needs to be up according to the rules, and I'll concede the point to you.

-Evil Bob

[Blazestorm]

You can signal yourself out.

You're told to raise your hand or marker above your head. That means your entire hand. Not part. As with the marker example, you rather raise your hand/marker above your head or you don't. There is a grey area, if you're in the grey area, you're not calling yourself out.

I just did it in numerous positions, it was no trouble to have my entire hand above my head. I held my marker, I knelt down, I crouch-walked I did whatever, maybe I have long arms or something.

He did not signal himself out technically. It appeared he did. But he didn't. Hell the only reason I even say Hit anymore is so my team knows I died, I don't signal, I just walk out. I spend about 5 seconds behind my bunker wondering what I did wrong then I walk out.

[MarkM]

You can signal yourself out.

Hell the only reason I even say Hit anymore is so my team knows I died, I don't signal, I just walk out. I spend about 5 seconds behind my bunker wondering what I did wrong then I walk out.

Do that on a field I am reffing and I will 1 for 1 you, since you are holding up the play deliberately. I will also ignore any shouts from you asking for a 1 for 1 against the other team who will be still shooting at you since you have not indicated to them (and me) that you are eliminated.

[-=Squid=-]

Do that on a field I am reffing and I will 1 for 1 you, since you are holding up the play deliberately. I will also ignore any shouts from you asking for a 1 for 1 against the other team who will be still shooting at you since you have not indicated to them (and me) that you are eliminated.
You 1 for 1 if someone just starts walking off the field?

lol

[Lohman446]

You 1 for 1 if someone just starts walking off the field?

lol


No Squid, he 1 for 1s someone for not leaving there bunker after being shot in a reasonable amount of time... I'm sure you think on the field, those pauses after being hit - I think we have all done them - can be for any number of reasons. To figure the position of the refs and consider its "obviousness", or simply to pause a rapidly devloping play by the other team, allowing your team to react... and five seconds is a pretty good pause

[Evil Bob]

At 20 bps, you can have 100 rounds in the air in 5 seconds. The average person can run 10+ yards in 5 seconds. Lots can happen.

-Evil Bob

[Blazestorm]

Do that on a field I am reffing and I will 1 for 1 you, since you are holding up the play deliberately. I will also ignore any shouts from you asking for a 1 for 1 against the other team who will be still shooting at you since you have not indicated to them (and me) that you are eliminated.

Not realistically 5 seconds, more like .5 - 2 seconds, just feels like 5 seconds. I look at where I got hit, look out of my bunker to see who shot me, then walk out, I don't call hit unless my teammates don't know I got shot, I don't run off the field or jog.

I never question a call, I may ask afterwords why the call was made, to understand better, but that's it. And I don't care about getting overshot, one of my good friends on oakland, it was like a 7 on 1, he was at my 30, I go run after him and shoot him once in the face, he is still fiddling with his hopper, once he gets it on and turned on (around the time I shoot him) I already call out cause I know I'm going to get shot another 10-15 times... turns out nobody shot me but him, had 14 hits on me ;)

I never ask for 1 for 1's either, it's pointless, it's the refs job to determine if one is needed, not the player.

[xsiegex]

I've seen some one pull the dead mans walk on my field. All you have to do is walk around with your gun up, and if someone asks you if your in or out you shoot them. If I see someone walking around like that not yelling out or deadman everynow and then I'll paint them up

[SlartyBartFast]

Well Squid, what rules do you play under? Regardless of your personal justification of your behaviour, it is clearly a case of intentionally playing-on. You are admitting attempting to behaving in a manner that influences the game after you have been eliminated.

As per many of these discussions, the specific rules are required reading.


20.01 Field Exit. Eliminated players must remove armband, put on barrel sock over his
or her marker barrel and proceed directly to the dead box closest to team flag station, using the
most direct route or according to the direction of a Field Ref, if any is given.

Interestingly both PSP and NPPL rules are quite clear it is the PLAYER"S responsibility to call themselves eliminated except for unobvious hits or obvious hits that cannot be easily verified.



19.02 Eliminations. Referees will eliminate players for the following reasons:
...
(4) Surrender. Player without being hit raises marker above head, or shouts “hit”
or ”out”, is not wearing armband, walks with eliminated player(s) or otherwise
creates the appearance of having been hit.


Well, that alone eliminates most behaviour that accompanies attempts at a DMW.



(9) Dead Man Walks are prohibited: as defined herein: Players that take such
action that would cause members of the opposing team or field referees to
reasonably believe that such players have been eliminated, including but not
limited to, calling themselves hit or out, hiding their armbands, holding the
markers above the shoulders, placing objects in the barrel, walking with
eliminated player(s), turning away from oncoming aggressive player(s) will be
eliminated. Players who have been marked by a player doing a dead man
walk will be reinstated in the game by a referee unless their armband has
already been removed then the player is eliminated.


I really don't know why the NPPL had to rule the above as DMW. Interdiction of the various behaviours and accompanying penalties was all that was needed.



Playing on:

Players who are eliminated should place their hand or marker above their head and immediately proceed to the dead box. Failure to do so will result in a major penalty.


Well Squid, you DO have to take action in the PSP rules as well as the NPPL rules.



4.2.3. An “eliminated” player is any player with an obvious hit; or who was not on the field of play at the start of the game; or has signaled their elimination by removing or losing their goggles, saying “hit” or “out”, raising their marker or an open hand above their head, removing their armband, or placing their barrel sock on their barrel; or has been eliminated by a judge or counted as active by the head judge after the end of the game.


The above effectively puts to rest shady DMWs as long as the refs have the balls to make the calls. And before someone tries to finnesse their way around the rules, an elimination MUST be signalled according to the elimination rules.



4.7.1. An eliminated player must immediately and swiftly raise their marker or an open hand above their head and proceed out-of-bounds by the most direct route or as directed by a judge.


Once again you are required to perform a specific action to indicate your elimination. The unnumbered playing-on rule would make failure to comply a playing-on offense IMO.

[SlartyBartFast]

You 1 for 1 if someone just starts walking off the field?

lol

Sure, why not? If you don't signal your elimination when you are eliminated it can be construed as playing-on.

[FallNAngel]

All you have to do is walk around with your gun up, and if someone asks you if your in or out you shoot them.

Having your gun up signals that you're out


Sure, why not? If you don't signal your elimination when you are eliminated it can be construed as playing-on.

playing on by walking off the field? I can see *not* getting off the field, continuing to shoot / talk / etc but for walking off the field and not yelling "hit" ?

[Lohman446]

playing on by walking off the field? I can see *not* getting off the field, continuing to shoot / talk / etc but for walking off the field and not yelling "hit" ?



4.7.1. An eliminated player must immediately and swiftly raise their marker or an open hand above their head and proceed out-of-bounds by the most direct route or as directed by a judge.

Yes... thats the rule, right there - you do not have to shout hit or out, but you MUST (not should) raise your marker or hand above your head and proceed out of bounds - this is how the rule is written, anything else is in violation and can be construed as playing on, or failing to "call" oneself out....

And there are reasons for that rule... I have taken several extra shots, and kept the other teams attention, by failure to follow it - it does impact game play and *should* - though never has, warrant a penalty

[SlartyBartFast]

playing on by walking off the field?

Yes. For two very simple reasons:

1 - You're breaking the rule requiring you to clearly signal your elimination.
2 - Walking/Running/Jogging/Intent is a determination that the refs should not have to make. Either you are or you are not following the elimination rule.

Both the PSP and the NPPL are VERY clear about which actions MUST be taken when eliminated and which actions are interpreted as signalling an elimination.

By Squid's admission, his reason to just walk off field and not signal being eliminated is to continue to affect the game even after being eliminated. That is CLEARLY intent to play-on.

It's like the justification for not checking on's self and waiting for a ref to call eliminations. Like it or not, it is clearly and undeniably against the rules and playing-on. If you're honest and morally sound you know that any justification for bending the rules or not following badly enforced rules is cheating.

[-=Squid=-]

The ref pulls my armband off. I walk off the field. I don't care if I get shot extra, it's better than looking like a goober with your gun in the air. Walking off the field with no armband on is a good enough signal, it's obvious if you have one on or not.

And Slarty, hell no I'm not reading your post with all those stupid broken down quotes. You shouldn't need to do that to make a point.

If I alter the game by walking off the field, the other team just sucks. Simple as that. If I see someone walking off the field, I shoot a rope of paint towards them, and RARELY do I ever see anyone eliminated by me or my team with more than 5 hits on them. It's no big deal. Maybe you just don't have much tournament experience, because any good team I play against does the same thing, and the people losing are the ones whining about being shot 5 times. Lemme guess, they are losing because we're playing on?

I laugh.

EDIT: I'm sure it or something similar is coming, so I will just do it for you: I suppose I am an elitist cockwad.

[Lohman446]

The ref pulls my armband off. I walk off the field. I don't care if I get shot extra, it's better than looking like a goober with your gun in the air. Walking off the field with no armband on is a good enough signal, it's obvious if you have one on or not.

And Slarty, hell no I'm not reading your post with all those stupid broken down quotes. You shouldn't need to do that to make a point.

.

Screw the rules - I need to look "cool"....

And no way am I reading the rules that illustrate your point.... because they would prove your point valid

[-=Squid=-]

Screw the rules - I need to look "cool"....

And no way am I reading the rules that illustrate your point.... because they would prove your point valid
I should draw you a little chart showing how little I care. We don't play PSP, and most tournaments follow NPPL rules, not PSP. Assuming it's the same, see your title.

[Automaggot68]

Screw the rules - I need to look "cool"....

And no way am I reading the rules that illustrate your point.... because they would prove your point valid


Why do you even care?

How often do you play tournies?

I can almost garuntee that it isn't as much as Squid does.

[Lohman446]

Why do you even care?

How often do you play tournies?

I can almost garuntee that it isn't as much as Squid does.

Oh.. yeh, I never play tournaments - about a dozen a year, normally two majors... I care that the rules are BS - I care that we have to have this "attitude" about paintball. So I don't play enough tournaments to have an opinion? Besides, my comment was to Squids post, nothing more - he pretty much said he didn't care how the rules read because it woudl make him look not cool...

[FallNAngel]

And there are reasons for that rule... I have taken several extra shots, and kept the other teams attention, by failure to follow it - it does impact game play and *should* - though never has, warrant a penalty

I can see doing it because the rules say to... but I gotta go with Squid on this... if you're walking off the field and manage to not only get shot more, but also keep their attention, there's something wrong with the other team. I can see taking a few extra... that's your fault for not (more) clearly showing you're eliminated and getting off the field... but keeping their attention?

Yes, you should signal you're out and you should get off the field quickly. Hell, if you go exactly by the rules, you must do it. I can't see just walking away from your bunker completely changing the game as opposed to holding your hand up when you do it.

[Lohman446]

You dont' think, standing in your bunker, getting shot and stepping in closer until a ref pulls you, can make a difference compared to putting your hand up instantly...? It looks innocent enough, but you know you are hit, you need to IMMEDIATLY get yourself out and signal your elimination. Games are fast paced, and a two second pause in a move can make a big difference

[FallNAngel]

You dont' think, standing in your bunker, getting shot and stepping in closer until a ref pulls you, can make a difference compared to putting your hand up instantly...?

Yes, but I said absolutely nothing about stepping in closer and waiting for a ref to pull me. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said getting shot and walking off the field. It's really not complicated... you get shot, you stop whatever you're doing, about-face (or turn to the tapeline if it's closer) and walk off. Will you get shot more? Perhaps, but I really don't think you'll be holding the game up.

[MarkM]

Not realistically 5 seconds, more like .5 - 2 seconds, just feels like 5 seconds. I look at where I got hit, look out of my bunker to see who shot me, then walk out, I don't call hit unless my teammates don't know I got shot, I don't run off the field or jog.

I never question a call, I may ask afterwords why the call was made, to understand better, but that's it. And I don't care about getting overshot, one of my good friends on oakland, it was like a 7 on 1, he was at my 30, I go run after him and shoot him once in the face, he is still fiddling with his hopper, once he gets it on and turned on (around the time I shoot him) I already call out cause I know I'm going to get shot another 10-15 times... turns out nobody shot me but him, had 14 hits on me ;)

I never ask for 1 for 1's either, it's pointless, it's the refs job to determine if one is needed, not the player.
Ok that is more like the time frame that is acceptable. I did afterall only have your previous post to go on. but since when was exaggeration not common on a paintball forum ;)
Good to hear that you don't question calls until after since a lot of players even in the alledged "heat" of the moment try do this though many are perfectly calm inside but in so complaining use this to distract the judge...me I am wise to it so other than a "leave the field player" I ignore them...if however they carry on (a warning is given) then arm bands start coming off.

[Automaggot68]

Oh.. yeh, I never play tournaments - about a dozen a year, normally two majors... I care that the rules are BS - I care that we have to have this "attitude" about paintball. So I don't play enough tournaments to have an opinion? Besides, my comment was to Squids post, nothing more - he pretty much said he didn't care how the rules read because it woudl make him look not cool...


When the hell did I ever say that you dont play tournies?
Show me when. Jesus, you're almost as bad as Roguefactor.

Make him look uncool? There you go again with taking things out of thin air.

If the other team can shoot a three inch by three inch area where your foot is sticking out of your bunker, or pop out in a momet and see the entire field, then they should be smart enough to notice an ARMBAND. No armband, not a threat. If you shoot that palyer agian, then well, too bad for them.

Now if that player with no armband is still active, i.e., Gun up and rolling, then there should be a problem, not when his marker isn't up in the air.

[-=Squid=-]

Bingo.

[Target Practice]

Bingo.

Ditto.

[Lohman446]

When the hell did I ever say that you dont play tournies?

This post does not imply that playing tournaments and tournament experience is what makes your opinion on this matter valid?



Why do you even care?

How often do you play tournies?

I can almost garuntee that it isn't as much as Squid does.



Make him look uncool? There you go again with taking things out of thin air.

I'm sorry, I asumed looking like a "goober" was uncool, maybe I pulled that out of thin air too


I walk off the field. I don't care if I get shot extra, it's better than looking like a goober with your gun in the air.

I swear... this board needs basic reading and communication testing before allowing people to sign up. :rolleyes:

Look, many of us do it, but many of use fail to follow the rules for a bit more thought out of a reason than to avoid looking like a "goober" which evidently isn't uncool at all...

[SlartyBartFast]

Hey Squid, You're an Ignoramus. I posted quotes from NPPL rules as well.

You might get away with your way of playing, but don't turn into a whining idiot when a ref decides to put his pants on and enforce the rules fully.

A true competitor would see promoting good competition as a badge of honour. Even other so-styled "extreme" sports have a code of honour. Paintball has no code. It's a bunch of punks that think they know better than everyone else. Rules and fair play be damned. :tard:

[SlartyBartFast]

Certain people who prefer to remain ignorant or can't read won't read the following but:



17.02 Obvious Hits. Players who are hit in an obvious location are expected to
immediately signal their elimination by announcing “HIT” or “OUT” at the time of such elimination.
Such players must then remove their armbands, and go straight to elimination box. Obvious hitsare those which impact and break on observable places on the body or equipment.


Players NOT refs are supposed to pull armbands for obvious hits.
And, that's IMMEDIATELY call YOURSELF out and then follow rule 20.01. WHether you think it makes you look geeky or not.


20.01 Field Exit. Eliminated players must remove armband, put on barrel sock over his or her marker barrel and proceed directly to the dead box closest to team flag station, using the most direct route or according to the direction of a Field Ref, if any is given. Players shall remain in the dead box until directed to leave by a Referee. Eliminated players shall exit the field with all equipment that they were carrying at the time of elimination.

So, if you don't play your tournament games this way, which of the following do you think should happen:
1- the rules need to change to remove all player responsibility.
2- the refs should start enforcing the rules as written.

I'm looking into becoming ref locally. Don't care if the players like me or not and I think I'd have a ball imposing the rulebook. :p

I find it sad that the game used to be one of honour and I could play 10 on 10 in the woods without the need for refs....

[hitech]

I find it sad that the game used to be one of honour and I could play 10 on 10 in the woods without the need for refs....

:hail:

[Automaggot68]

Look, many of us do it, but many of use fail to follow the rules for a bit more thought out of a reason than to avoid looking like a "goober" which evidently isn't uncool at all...


Then maybe it's time for you to leave. :)

[SlartyBartFast]

Then maybe it's time for you to leave. :)

:tard:

So Mr. Smart Guy, what's your reason/excuse for not following the rules?

[Automaggot68]

:tard:

So Mr. Smart Guy, what's your reason/excuse for not following the rules?

What rules did I not follow again?


Edit: Come to think of it, i dont think I've broken any rules in regards to playing paintball ever.

[minimag03]

Like mentioned before, if you are dumb enough not to shot someone walking without a marker above their head or with some sign that they are marked, then you need to lose.

[Lohman446]

What rules did I not follow again?


Edit: Come to think of it, i dont think I've broken any rules in regards to playing paintball ever.


That's a pretty lofty statement :D . I am sure I have broken rules before, some unintentionally, others a little less accidentally. ;)

:cheers:

[minimag03]

What rules did I not follow again?


Edit: Come to think of it, i dont think I've broken any rules in regards to playing paintball ever.

Oh, that is like saying you have never went over the speed limit. Even it you didn't meant to break a rule, you still broke it.

[-=Squid=-]

I am a cheater, I walk off the field without my gun up. Therefor I am not a samurai and hold no honor.

Now tell me why you're not retarded? I walk off the field. I have never in my life, at any NPPL event, or small (local, if you will) tournament seen it be a problem with someone walking off the field without the gun in the air.

The fact of the matter is... Nothing you say really means a damn thing to me. Congratulations.

I repeat: I am a cockwad. (I guess?)

[Automaggot68]

That's a pretty lofty statement :D . I am sure I have broken rules before, some unintentionally, others a little less accidentally. ;)

:cheers:


No i'm serious.
I have never cheated. Ever.
And to be perfectly hoenst, I've at times told myself tha tI'll cheat the entire day, because it's so rampant already.
I always forget to cheat.

[Automaggot68]

Oh, that is like saying you have never went over the speed limit. Even it you didn't meant to break a rule, you still broke it.



So what rules did I break again?
Please, tell me.

I've never broken a rule while palying paintbal ever.

I've cheated on Tests, I'd been pulled over for doing 85mph in a 70 zone.

I'll admit to anything I've done. But I've never cheated.

You could ask any number of people on the boards who've played with me.

Does my own team cheat? Yep, Especially a certain player, We'll call him 'Him'.

But me? Nope.

Overshooting isn't against the rules at the fields I play at.
Neither is walking off the field with your marker down.
How do I know?
EVERYMORNING THEY STATE THE RULES. EVERY PLAYER MUST SHOW UP, OR THEY WILL NOT PLAY.
Not Yelling, just emphasis.

[-=Squid=-]

The man doesn't cheat, shut the hell up.

Wait... do you walk off the field with your gun by your side?

... You dirty bastard...

[SlartyBartFast]

Like mentioned before, if you are dumb enough not to shot someone walking without a marker above their head, then you need to lose.

But, as Squid and his fanboy/troll Automaggot can attest, not everyone does as they are supposed to when leaving the field.

So, you're either faced with a whiney idiot who complains about getting overshot when it's their fault that they're not following the correct behaviour for eliminated players or you get stuck with self-absorbed cheaters who won't complain but who are very effectively cheating and playing-on by occupying your attention after they have been eliminated.

[Automaggot68]

But, as Squid and his fanboy/troll Automaggot can attest, not everyone does as they are supposed to when leaving the field.

So, you're either faced with a whiney idiot who complains about getting overshot when it's their fault that they're not following the correct behaviour for eliminated players or you get stuck with self-absorbed cheaters who won't complain but who are very effectively cheating and playing-on by occupying your attention after they have been eliminated.



Well, If' were going to get into this..
Then go back to your sugar daddy, Lohman.

an dYes, OMG I WALKED OFF T3H FEELD WIHT MY GA TON MY SYd
OH NOES.

And Yes, Not everyone always does as rule dictate.

But you knwo what, if you're going to get wrapped up in something such as another player walking off the field with his gun down and armband missing then you really need to chill the hell out. it's a GAME.

[-=Squid=-]

But, as Squid and his fanboy/troll Automaggot can attest, not everyone does as they are supposed to when leaving the field.

So, you're either faced with a whiney idiot who complains about getting overshot when it's their fault that they're not following the correct behaviour for eliminated players or you get stuck with self-absorbed cheaters who won't complain but who are very effectively cheating and playing-on by occupying your attention after they have been eliminated.
So, in other words, you're a sore loser who use lame *** excuses?

[SlartyBartFast]

What rules did I not follow again?

I smell the festering odour of troll..... :rolleyes:

You've been supportive of Squid and I (and I'm sure Lohman and others as well) couldn't give a toss about which rules you play under or whether you follow them.

We are discussing specific rules, for specific formats. If you're rules aren't the same, then bully for you. Perhaps you could be constructive and submit why you think your rules are better instead of being dodgy and contrarian.

[minimag03]

I don't just mean cheating. You've never walked off the field and forgot to put your barrel blocker in? I just eman't it that way. I do believe you when you say you have never cheated, but commen mistakes like I mentioned above it still breaking a rule.



So what rules did I break again?
Please, tell me.

I've never broken a rule while palying paintbal ever.

I've cheated on Tests, I'd been pulled over for doing 85mph in a 70 zone.

I'll admit to anything I've done. But I've never cheated.

You could ask any number of people on the boards who've played with me.

Does my own team cheat? Yep, Especially a certain player, We'll call him 'Him'.

But me? Nope.

Overshooting isn't against the rules at the fields I play at.
Neither is walking off the field with your marker down.
How do I know?
EVERYMORNING THEY STATE THE RULES. EVERY PLAYER MUST SHOW UP, OR THEY WILL NOT PLAY.
Not Yelling, just emphasis.

[Automaggot68]

I smell the festering odour of troll..... :rolleyes:

You've been supportive of Squid and I (and I'm sure Lohman and others as well) couldn't give a toss about which rules you play under or whether you follow them.

We are discussing specific rules, for specific formats. If you're rules aren't the same, then bully for you. Perhaps you could be constructive and submit why you think your rules are better instead of being dodgy and contrarian.


My rules are better?
Dude, I never said anything like that EVER.
Squid was the dude talking about rules.
I play by different rules because I play at different fields than you do.

When I played the PanAms, I abided by different rules than I did during my NPPL tournies.
I play by different Rules for the SoCal Summer series as well.

I play by whatever rules are stated either in the handbook, Captain's meeting, etc etc.

If someone is at my mirror, arm down, NO armband, Im not going to shoot them.
If i see that same player WITH an armband, I am going to send three or four balls at him.

[-=Squid=-]

I smell the festering odour of troll..... :rolleyes:
I smell the festering odour of an idiot who uses the smileys.

[Automaggot68]

I don't just mean cheating. You've never walked off the field and forgot to put your barrel blocker in? I just eman't it that way. I do believe you when you say you have never cheated, but commen mistakes like I mentioned above it still breaking a rule.


Ask SpecBlend, i am a PRICk when it comes to Safety on the Field.

I have YELLED at other people about the mis use of barrel blockers.

When I play, My Barrel is too long to completely remove the Condom from my feedneck, so I always keep the loose condom in my left hand, where I hold my forgrip.

The moment the game is done, or I am eliminated, it goes right back on.

Any other questions?

[Automaggot68]

I smell the festering odour of an idiot who uses the smileys.

Nick, no name calling.
C'mon, lets keep it civil.

[-=Squid=-]

Nick, no name calling.
C'mon, lets keep it civil.
I don't believe he kept it very civil.

[Automaggot68]

I don't believe he kept it very civil.


I believe he did.

[minimag03]

I didn't mean it as that. I was just refering to a lot of things that can be easily forgotten, but are still considered breaking a rule. In all you years of playing I'm sure you broke one of them because no one's perfect.

I think you guys need to cool it too. It you are flaming over stuff that isn't worth getting banned over. At the very least, don't call eachother names.



Ask SpecBlend, i am a PRICk when it comes to Safety on the Field.

I have YELLED at other people about the mis use of barrel blockers.

When I play, My Barrel is too long to completely remove the Condom from my feedneck, so I always keep the loose condom in my left hand, where I hold my forgrip.

The moment the game is done, or I am eliminated, it goes right back on.

Any other questions?

[SlartyBartFast]

Let's recap so that Maggot and Squid can perhaps defend their position as it was originally stated:


I shall explain: The point is that you shouldn't need to signal yourself out. You're hit... That means you are out. Get off the field when the ref pulls your armband. The ref doing this is the proper signal, along with the hit on your body. If you miss it, oh well, if you get shot again, oh well. It doesn't hurt, especially when comparing to other sports. Paintball players are so damn whiney.

1 - A hit might be cleared by a ref and you might still be in the game.
2 - A ref has no obligation to pull your arm band. It is the player's responsibility.
3 - Even if the ref pulls your armband ASAP, that's precious seconds you were playing on. As until the PLAYER pulls their armband or signals themselves out (AS REQUIRED BY THE RULES) or the ref pulls the player, noone in their right mind should take their attention off the player in case they are still active.

So, following Squid's way of playing is completely agains NPPL rules on numerous counts.

Then we can follow up with the really telling part. Intent.


Having a hit on you calls you out. I just stand up, and walk off the field, or run, that way people shoot at me rather than my teammates. Who cares about getting shot. Seriously.

Why do people whine so much about every little thing?

The important bit is bolded. That can easily and rightly be construed as clear and undeniable intent to cheat and play-on.

If I come out from behind a bunker and see Squid moving on field and clearly not indicating he's eliminated, I waste my time and give Squid's team an advantage if I take the time to snap shoot him. His band might be off, but it might be on the arm furthest from me and out of sight. How exactly is it my fault that my team loses out because of Squid's failure to follow clear rules (alternately because he CLEARLY wants to gain an advantage by the cheat, or because holding his hand or gun up is gooberish) and the ref's failure to enforce them?

If Squid's failure to follow the rules causes me to shoot him and allow his teammate to move up, that's no "small thing".

[-=Squid=-]

"I smell the festering odour of troll..... "

"So, you're either faced with a whiney idiot who complains about getting overshot when it's their fault that they're not following the correct behaviour for eliminated players or you get stuck with self-absorbed cheaters who won't complain but who are very effectively cheating and playing-on by occupying your attention after they have been eliminated."

" fanboy/troll Automaggot"

"Hey Squid, You're an Ignoramus."

Doesn't sound very civil.

Look you moron, maybe you don't get it... But my point was that if I'm walking off the field and they are still shooting at me, then that is their problem. It doesn't affect me a bit to throw a couple of balls towards someone walking off the field, so why should it matter so much to everyone else? Maybe if it's so important to them, they wouldn't even bother. I'm walking AWAY from them, the ref USUALLY signals a player out anyways, AND I don't have an armband on.

HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET? If its THAT big of a problem, you SHOULD NOT be playing competative paintball.

And who the hell wants to look like a goober, anyways.

[SlartyBartFast]

If its THAT big of a problem, you SHOULD NOT be playing competative paintball.

Well, I guess ND and exile shouldn't be playing then. :rolleyes:

It the failure to enforce clear eliminated player behaviour that causes the NPPL to create bogus rules banning subjective behaviour.

[-=Squid=-]

Well, I guess ND and exile shouldn't be playing then. :rolleyes:

It the failure to enforce clear eliminated player behaviour that causes the NPPL to creat bogus rules banning subjective behaviour.
That is hysterical. You don't think they cheat their faces off?

[SlartyBartFast]

That is hysterical. You don't think they cheat their faces off?

Of course I suspect they cheat. But why even bother going for the after the rules that need skill to cheat and break when such obvious and easily enforced ones are being broken?

But what's you're point? Trying to defend your clear intent to cheat by saying the pros do it?

Proof perhaps that honour and fair competition mean nothing to you. You're blowing a lot of steam and making a huge fuss but completely avoiding adressing the specific quotes of yours that have been challenged.


Back to the origninal topic: I believe that Deadman walks SHOULD be allowed and the exile vs. ND video is a pathetic example of one. The reason is this: that any team worth their salt should have cut the player doing the "DMW" a new one and lit them up in the back because they weren't following the correct eliminated player behaviour.

Problem is the single braincell idiots reffing would probably have called them for overshooting.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm walking AWAY from them, the ref USUALLY signals a player out anyways, AND I don't have an armband on.

The first is consistent with a DMW, the second is a "usually" that can't be counted on, and the third isn't my problem. I shouldn't have to look for an armband.

[Lohman446]

That is hysterical. You don't think they cheat their faces off?


There cheating is to win though.. not to "avoid looking like a goober".

[CoolHand]

I repeat: I am a cockwad.

LMAO.

God how I love it when an argument gets to this point (you know, the sarcasm before the storm).

This is the best time to lurk in a thread.

/me wishes we had that popcorn chicken smiley

/me thinks this is going to be like Jerry Springer . . . . . . . . . except everyone will have all their teeth to start with.

[tony3]

Just to let EVERYONE know, DMW is illegal in xball.

[-=Squid=-]

There cheating is to win though.. not to "avoid looking like a goober".
You have got to be kidding me.

[SlartyBartFast]

You have got to be kidding me.

Well, are you kidding us? Those were your own words.

Remebering what you said and addressing the big questions too much for you Squid?

[-=Squid=-]

Well, are you kidding us? Those were your own words.

Remebering what you said and addressing the big questions too much for you Squid?
What the hell are you talking about?

[SlartyBartFast]

What the hell are you talking about?

I'd try and use samller words. But I'm not very goo at monosyllabic communication.

So sorry the world confuses you Squid. :p

[-=Squid=-]

I'd try and use samller words. But I'm not very goo at monosyllabic communication.

So sorry the world confuses you Squid. :p
dereredererederederederder

EDIT: You use smileys.

[SlartyBartFast]

Anybody intelligent left in this thread?

Squid has proven incapable of communicating, following a conversation, sticking to his own declarations, or otherwise remaining coherent. :p

And while apt to use the word "Goober" fails to understand or provide a meaning for the word and seems to experience memory loss when using it. :rofl:

It wouldn't be quite so sad if we all didn't know before hand that Squid would fall apart and decend to that level. Everytime rules are mentioned logic seems to quickly leave his skill set and ridicule and stupidity seem to be his only alternative. :rolleyes:

The dislike of smilies seems to be an issue as well. :rofl:

[barrel break]

Well, I have only pulled this off successfully a few times, but as long as you don't clearly signal to be out (IE gun up, or shouting) You are kosher in my book.

[Automaggot68]

Anybody intelligent left in this thread?

Squid has proven incapable of communicating, following a conversation, sticking to his own declarations, or otherwise remaining coherent. :p

And while apt to use the word "Goober" fails to understand or provide a meaning for the word and seems to experience memory loss when using it. :rofl:

It wouldn't be quite so sad if we all didn't know before hand that Squid would fall apart and decend to that level. Everytime rules are mentioned logic seems to quickly leave his skill set and ridicule and stupidity seem to be his only alternative. :rolleyes:

The dislike of smilies seems to be an issue as well. :rofl:


You've got a real hard-on for squid dont you?
Why dont you just hit that good ol' ignore button, and carry on with your posts.
This went from the discussion of DMW's, to whether or not Automaggot cheats, and the challenging of how Squid plays.
Get over it.

[SlartyBartFast]

You've got a real hard-on for squid dont you?
Why dont you just hit that good ol' ignore button, and carry on with your posts.
This went from the discussion of DMW's, to whether or not Automaggot cheats, and the challenging of how Squid plays.
Get over it.

But it's amusing.

It's even more ironic that despite the positions and attitudes that Squid admits to but refuses to either back down from or defend, he was originally in complete agreement with my position on the issue of DMWs.