The Mag-Ingorance I Live With

[MadPSIence]

This is the typical kid from where I play.. and a quoted post from the local forum..

"I had a .68 automag way back in the day, and it honestly was awesome, however it was replaced cause it just couldnt keep up. I would never trade my DM5 for a tricked out mag..... among other reasons 1 being no resale value, they are dinosaurs that no one wants."

This guy shot a .68 Automag.. era 1990.. and says mags are dinosaurs and can't keep up.

The battlefront is glowing bright orange and yellow with flames over at saskpb..

Can you believe it? A kid brings THIS

http://www.vintagerex.com/pics/gunpics/AGD%20-%20Air%20Gun%20Designs/Automag/ads/68%20automag%20catalog%20scan.jpg

to a tourny.. can't keep up.. so says mags suck and buys a "dmfizzle"

[WARPED1]

Unfortunayely, he's right. Now, yall are about to spout off "DEVILMAG! DEVILMAG!". But not only are they nearly non existant()hey, it's custom, deal with the wait!), and to me it's not really a mag, just a mag chassis with a great e kit and eyes. A whole new beast!

[teufelhunden]

Nice spelling of ignorance, btw.

Anyway, is he wrong in any respect? Can a 'Mag, no matter how new or old, how 'tricked' or stock, compare to a DM5? Do 'Mags have a good resale value? How recently have there been any improvements to the 'Mag? I'd go so far as to say that the last innovative thing out of Airgun was the LX-- ULE bodies should've been out in the mid to late nineties, ULT was needed earlier as well. Lately, anything from AGD is like correcting the tire pressure on a totalled car-- too little, too late.

As good as 'Mags are as what they do, there is no ignorance in anything that the player has said about 'Mags. I believe you, sir, are the ignorant one for believing something obviously untrue in that Airgun still makes the top gun on the field.

[WARPED1]

Couldn't have said it better myself teuf.

[cdacda13]

Ha, comparing a CLASSIC Mag to a DM5.

[Recon by Fire]

Funny, I have never felt obsolete or out gunned on the field...

Last time I overheard someone laying down the typical trash talk about mags we were playing some 3v3. A fellow on the other team was telling his buddies about how bad mags are. Our first two games were over in record time. First game I eliminated all 3 of them. The second game I eliminated two of them. At that point they decided to check out what old middle aged guy with the funky set-up is shooting. They couldn't recognize the marker so they asked. I just smiled and said "Oh, this is just a Mag" and walked off. His two buddies gave him the look of "you are a dumb @__".

Priceless :dance: I was shooting my warped X-mag that day.


I believe Daroach used a slogan: "For me and my house, we serve the Mag."
:cheers:

[Lee]

i swept 10 guys today w/ my mag. took out the whole other team except for the tippy that got me. granted it's not stock, but it's not electro either.

and yes, there were multiple electros on the other team: ions, dm's, shockers...oh my!

[MadPSIence]

Nice spelling of ignorance, btw.

Anyway, is he wrong in any respect? Can a 'Mag, no matter how new or old, how 'tricked' or stock, compare to a DM5? Do 'Mags have a good resale value? How recently have there been any improvements to the 'Mag? I'd go so far as to say that the last innovative thing out of Airgun was the LX-- ULE bodies should've been out in the mid to late nineties, ULT was needed earlier as well. Lately, anything from AGD is like correcting the tire pressure on a totalled car-- too little, too late.

As good as 'Mags are as what they do, there is no ignorance in anything that the player has said about 'Mags. I believe you, sir, are the ignorant one for believing something obviously untrue in that Airgun still makes the top gun on the field.

by now you must have grown accustomed to the taste of your own foot.

the point of this thread was a kid based his opinion of mags on his use of a .68 Automag.

[Beemer]

Couldn't have said it better myself Rogue

__________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[WARPED1]

If it uses the AGD valve, its a mag.

There are only 2 things that limit electro markers these days:

1) The chip/board
2) The recharge(yes, that includes the mechanics of the marker,regulation, First Shot Drop Off).

The mag has the fastest, if not one of the fastest, recharges on the market. So, with a fast chip/board, like the DevilMag's Predator board, there is very little that it cant compete with speed-wise.

To say otherwise would be uninformed...
I said except the DMag, read. :p It's a whole new gun just built on the chassis of a mag, they should call it the Puma or something. :p

[ottomobile]

A mag is still the only marker on the field that can shoot 26bps wet or dry. No fickle electronics to mess up in the rain. That baby will will just keep going and going...

I say the mag is still the most impressive marker on the field. Nothing out there can beat its total package. If you did a blind test and just listed its specs people would pic it every time.

26 bps
<15 ounce trigger pull
1 screw field strip
Ultra light
Anti-chop that will always work
Incredibly reliable
quiet
accurate
no kick
Integrated regulator
super efficient
And no batteries to replace


Heck, it sounds like a dream come true. The only problem with the mag is as cool as us AOers think it looks, most people don't think its flashy enough.

Mags rule!

[wimag]

how old is this kid ?

[MadPSIence]

20.. so like 6-7 years older than the average agg kiddie

[Lohman446]

I have a Devilmag, I have a Proto - I have shot (more than once, at least a case through each playing) Shockers, 05 Angel Speeds, Karnivores, and a few other markers.

Now if you all want me to say the Devilmag blew them away... no. Let me say this, I use semi only, so all the modes in the world don't mean a thing to me - but all the markers have pretty comparable modes available - some stock, some not.

The fact of the matter is though, any of those markers perform to my expectations of a top tournament level marker. I am as comfortable taking my Devilmag on the field as any other marker made today. I don't feel that I give up anything when comparing it to any other marker available today.

That being said.. to me, except for a Devilmag (EYES PEOPLE EYES) you would be hard pressed to convince me any other mag could compare to a DM5 when playing.

Rogue was right The answer to the original question "Can a mag, tricked out, compare to a DM5?" The answer, to me is an emphatic yes it can... He did not list things that you had to stop at. To me a mag, with good eyes, be it by the Devilmag mod (tested) Coolhands mod (hypothetical), or a Predator mod (hypothetical) can most certainly compare to a DM5.

[nt2004]

A mag is still the only marker on the field that can shoot 26bps wet or dry. No fickle electronics to mess up in the rain. That baby will will just keep going and going...


I dont know if that really matters. First day I had my proto, I dove head first into a puddle of muddy water and I didnt have any problems

[Lohman446]

I dont know if that really matters. First day I had my proto, I dove head first into a puddle of muddy water and I didnt have any problems

I have never had, or witnessed, an electro taken out by rain or incidental water contact, and I have played in some pretty heavy rain

[Lohman446]

Superior skill coupled with an inferior marker will overcome inferior skill coupled with a superior marker


Is amazing how many people can't seem to comprehend that

[Creative Mayhem]

Superior skill coupled with an inferior marker will overcome inferior skill coupled with a superior marker


Is amazing how many people can't seem to comprehend that


QFT


I have never felt outgunned with my mags, X, minimag, etc... I will however say this, while it may not have ramping ang all the other helper modes(lets be honest here, they make the difference), there really is no difference froma DM4, timmy, etc, when in true semi mode. The only beef I have is efficiency and total number of shots. Other than that, I would gladly take any one of my mags to a tourney any day of the week.

[Spartan X]

I think that saying might fitr to the MQ valve they were working on for the Mags...While it uses a Mag body..thats were it ends.

Question.

So devil Mags use lvl 10, or do they use lvl 7?

The ant-chop feature as not the only selling point to the lvl 10. Remembering Toms interview that I saqw on the net, he also said it reduced recoil because it's alot lighter then the lvl 7, also because it was slowed down it was easier on paint because the bolt did not move so blinding fast...also yah got a Foamy on there

So my question is, would it be BETTER to put a lvl 7 on a Mag that has eyes, or would it be better if you just used the lvl 10 with the smallest spring..or fastest, most efficiant/ hardest on paint set up?

[Lee]

Superior skill coupled with an inferior marker will overcome inferior skill coupled with a superior marker

in that case, the issue of whether a mag can "keep up" or not is immaterial, as it apprently can.

also, what is basically being said is that in the hands of the right player an automag is more than adequate. so, the "keeping up" part is situational and not true in every instance.

[JimmyBeam]

20.. so like 6-7 years older than the average agg kiddie

oh good lord, that makes me.....err nevermind

[BigEvil]

Here we go again

and again...
and again...
and again...
and again...
and again...
and again...
and again...
and again...
and again...
and again...






and again...

[SpitFire1299]

Wow.. i feel like a n00b. What does agg mean?

[magman007]

well then, simple solution, quit living with it and end your self! :eek:

[ottomobile]

What's the big deal about eyes? I built more complicated electronics my freshman year in college. Eye's are no better than a lvl 10 or JAM Bolt (autococker). In a level 10 or JAM bolt the firing cycle basically mis-fires, resets and fires again. An electronic system does the exact same thing. The only difference is time. But lets be realistic here. The difference in time is in the 1000ths of a second. There isn't a human on earth whose reflexes are so fast that in 1000th of a second they can move their marker out from the bunker, shoot you and dive back into the bunker all while you mis-fire one shot in a string of 50.

We are reaching the Law of Diminshing returns here. We can go faster, down to micro-seconds, but why. When you are already going faster than any human can respond to it doesn't matter.

[Lohman446]

What's the big deal about eyes? I built more complicated electronics my freshman year in college. Eye's are no better than a lvl 10 or JAM Bolt (autococker). In a level 10 or JAM bolt the firing cycle basically mis-fires, resets and fires again. An electronic system does the exact same thing. The only difference is time. But lets be realistic here. The difference in time is in the 1000ths of a second. There isn't a human on earth whose reflexes are so fast that in 1000th of a second they can move their marker out from the bunker, shoot you and dive back into the bunker all while you mis-fire one shot in a string of 50.

We are reaching the Law of Diminshing returns here. We can go faster, down to micro-seconds, but why. When you are already going faster than any human can respond to it doesn't matter.


I have played with both eyes and level ten - I would much rather have eyes. In fact as I look at markers, until someone proves to me by letting me play with it for a tournament, I am simply not beleiving that anything works as well as eyes. Eyes - no fire. LX - bolt hits "lightly" paint that cannot go anywhere... I'll take eyes, I know that if the bolt doesn't move it won't break paint. I just don't beleive that with LX after using it.

[Recon by Fire]

If these fools want to look down their noses at Mags, I say let them. Let them make the mistake of underestimation and we will just mop them up on the field :) Innovation? So the Mag is not the absolute atest design de jour! AGD has a superby design marker, why fix what is not broken? Mags are great performers all around, why or how could you ask for more? Not to mention such a simple yet infinitely superb design to boot. I just cannot see any other marker out there replacing mine.

Why choose eyes or LX? I say use both, I do! :) Forget your fancing ramping cheater boards, blah, blah, etc... your shouldn't be using that stuff anyway. No wonder people have such a low view of players, they are Natural Born Cheaters. Sorry kidz, there is no "God Mode" on the field.

In summation: Mags rock! :shooting: :dance:

[ottomobile]

Sorry kidz, there is no "God Mode" on the field.




I like this guy!

[Timmee]

A mag is still the only marker on the field that can shoot 26bps wet or dry. No fickle electronics to mess up in the rain. That baby will will just keep going and going...


I didn't have a single problem with my B2K or Halo the time I played during a heavy rain.

[CKY_Alliance]

What's the big deal about eyes? I built more complicated electronics my freshman year in college. Eye's are no better than a lvl 10 or JAM Bolt (autococker). In a level 10 or JAM bolt the firing cycle basically mis-fires, resets and fires again. An electronic system does the exact same thing. The only difference is time. But lets be realistic here. The difference in time is in the 1000ths of a second. There isn't a human on earth whose reflexes are so fast that in 1000th of a second they can move their marker out from the bunker, shoot you and dive back into the bunker all while you mis-fire one shot in a string of 50.

We are reaching the Law of Diminshing returns here. We can go faster, down to micro-seconds, but why. When you are already going faster than any human can respond to it doesn't matter.

The big deal about eyes is that you dont have to adjust them.Atleast that why i prefer eyes.

[raehl]

The big deal about eyes is that you dont have to adjust them.Atleast that why i prefer eyes.

No, the big deal is this:

If you pull the trigger and a ball has not fed correctly, with level 10, you have to pull the trigger again to get a shot - your original trigger pull is lost.

With eyes, the board waits for the paintball to show up, and if it does feed within X time (usually 100-250 ms), it will fire the paintball - you don't have to pull the trigger a second time.

- Chris

[Lee]

No, the big deal is this:

If you pull the trigger and a ball has not fed correctly, with level 10, you have to pull the trigger again to get a shot - your original trigger pull is lost.

With eyes, the board waits for the paintball to show up, and if it does feed within X time (usually 100-250 ms), it will fire the paintball - you don't have to pull the trigger a second time.

- Chris


immaterial if your walking. you just walk through either the shot delay w/ eyes or the reset w/ level 10.
emag w/ halo and it's a non issue.

minor annoyance w/ a mech mag.

[CKY_Alliance]

No, the big deal is this:

If you pull the trigger and a ball has not fed correctly, with level 10, you have to pull the trigger again to get a shot - your original trigger pull is lost.

With eyes, the board waits for the paintball to show up, and if it does feed within X time (usually 100-250 ms), it will fire the paintball - you don't have to pull the trigger a second time.

- Chris
That as well becasue shooting a nice stream of paint and then your lvl 10 takes affect is kinda annoying..all though i cant comment on eyes becasue i havent used a gun with them before...well not played a game with one ...but as far as not having to adjust them like lvl 10 makes me liek them more so then lvl10

[dolphin1823]

:cry: boo whoo, I have to adjust my LvL 10. :cry:
The only times I've had to touch my Lvl 10 set up is after the intinal break in and when I went from playing outdoors to playing indoors because of the lower fps.

Try adjusting the velocity of the VM-68, where you have to take out all the interanls to rotate the main valve to adjust the hole size when you couldn't get the right velocity with the main bolt screw. You paintball veterans will know what I'm talking about. :cheers:

[Lohman446]

:cry: boo whoo, I have to adjust my LvL 10. :cry:


Thats one way to look at it... funny, when I got sick of LX I looked around for an AGD product - I bought a Shocker. It took a custom built mag to bring me back.

[Dryden]

Try adjusting the velocity of the VM-68, where you have to take out all the interanls to rotate the main valve to adjust the hole size when you couldn't get the right velocity with the main bolt screw. You paintball veterans will know what I'm talking about. :cheers:
Ugh, don't remind me ... I cannot tell you how many times I was out at a field with my friends where we'd all look at each other as we're all over the map from 250 to 350fps ...

"So, are you set at 3 o'clock or 6 o'clock?"
"Uhh ... is the 12 o'clock position higher than the 9 o'clock?"
"Hey, does anyone have the thing to rotate the valve?"

The ease of velocity adjustment was the selling feature of the Mag way back in the day.

My only complaint with the Level 10 versus eyes is that it only takes one swollen/bad paintball in a too-tight bore to cause the Level 10 to chuff resulting in a double feed, which in turn often leads to a barrel break. Bad paint is just a part of the game, particularly on muggy days when the humidity is at or over 40 or 50% so the paint goes bad the moment you open the bag. Level 10 is incredible, but it isn't the be-all-end-all solution.

[dre1919]

You know, IMHO it's something of a waste of time to argue this gun over that gun and whatnot. I mean really, I think anybody with any knowledge of science and the sport itself can realize which markers will shoot faster and which won't. The thing is though, any player with a marker of any kind has just as much chance of taking someone out. The better the equipment, however, the better chances they have based on sheer perfromance and firepower. But as good as the marker is it will never supercede the player. The player is the one making the moves, aiming, pulling the trigger, and getting the eliminations. If you hand a kid whose never played a game in his life a Matrix and a veteran a stock, classic Mag from the 90's I would feel comfortable saying the veteran will find a way to win 90% of the time or higher.

That doesn't mean that all guns are equal and the player is the only important thing. No, no...quite the contrary. In fact, in certain cases the equipment can really make the player out to be better than he is. I just feel like a lot of people spend time trying to figure out "which gun is the best on the market" when in reality there is no right answer. The closest thing to that answer is "what feels right for you?" I've never shot a Timmy or a DM4, or even an A4 but I'm not really worried I'm missing out. I shoot a 2000 LCD Angel. She's fast, reliable, sleek, and has all the features I really need (and can justify spending the money on). I am quite comfortable saying it is the finest marker I have ever owned. I've also had Tippman's, Automag Classic's and RT's, and an Angel ir3. All of them were fine markers, and worked very well for what I asked them to do, but they didn't bring the total package together like my LCD. Sure, I could go out and get the latest thing...but why? I feel I'm a pretty lethal player with this marker, I know it inside and out, and it's comfortable in my hand. It is an extention of me when playing. I know exactly how much of it can be hung out in snap shooting. I know how fast it will fire. I'm at peace with my marker choice, and I have better things to do than argue it's merits.

I'm not attempting to belittle anyone for doing so, I'm just saying "What's the difference?" Find what you like, make it work the best for you, and don't worry about the hype.

My .02

dre

[BigEvil]

:cry: boo whoo, I have to adjust my LvL 10. :cry:
The only times I've had to touch my Lvl 10 set up is after the intinal break in and when I went from playing outdoors to playing indoors because of the lower fps.

Try adjusting the velocity of the VM-68, where you have to take out all the interanls to rotate the main valve to adjust the hole size when you couldn't get the right velocity with the main bolt screw. You paintball veterans will know what I'm talking about. :cheers:

WOW Im having a flashback!!

Yeah, the velocity thing was big back then. So was the fact you could shoot the mag much faster than anything out there at the time.


The Lvl10 on my 4 mags all work great. I have no complaints. The eyes on my Angels also work great. No complaints there either. Then again, I've also invested alot of money in having the BEST possible hopper set up that I can in order to feed the guns reliably.

At the field recently I have been talking to alot of players with Bushmasters, Imps and older Angel Speeds, all without eyes. They all tell me the same thing: they get by fine with their Halos + V35 boards. They also arent hose monsters, but can be when they need to. I have been on the wrong end of it, so I know.

So basically, as ALWAYS, what is best for you will be different from what is best for someone else.