Why did AGD get rid of the Emag?

[fastn]

I've been away from Paintball for a while. What happened to the emag?

[Creative Mayhem]

I've been away from Paintball for a while. What happened to the emag?


In 2 words.... Smart Parts


Longer explanation... Smart Parts started suing all these companies for infringing on a patent they "own" and it was in AGD's best intrest to stop making the emag.

[slade]

and cause they decided to head to scenario :(

[CJ55]

In 2 words.... Smart Parts


Longer explanation... Smart Parts started suing all these companies for infringing on a patent they "own" and it was in AGD's best intrest to stop making the emag.

This has been posted before and this is always my answer but somehow nobody beleives me, Creative Mayhem is right, well put dude.

[Lohman446]

Aside from Tom Kaye said that was not the reason he's right... just a small detail there - like the person making the decision said it may have been one consideration but was not the reason.

The risk to reward ratio in making the E-mag became unfavorable, and production was stopped - for many factors

[Pha|anx]

Any specifics on what AGD was sued over?

[shartley]

This has been posted before and this is always my answer but somehow nobody beleives me, Creative Mayhem is right, well put dude.
Many don’t believe you because it is not true. Or at least not true in accordance to what Tom Kaye actually posted here on AO. I find it extremely baffling how Tom Kaye wrote a HUGE post detailing why the E/X Mags were being discontinued, but folks refuse to even acknowledge what he said.

Aside from Tom Kaye said that was not the reason he's right... just a small detail there - like the person making the decision said it may have been one consideration but was not the reason.

The risk to reward ratio in making the E-mag became unfavorable, and production was stopped - for many factors
Very true. And I will go farther and say that to state SP was the reason is almost an outright lie if it is the only or main reason given. Tom stated a laundry list of reasons why the E/X Mags were discontinued and only at the END of the list was the “potential” of legal problems with SP mentioned.

In fact, if folks go back and read what Tom wrote, the potential threat of SP was actually not a reason for discontinuing with the E/X Mags, but really only given as a reason for not coming out with a NEW electronic marker. But he stated that they were still working on one… they would just hold off on any releases of it.

Any specifics on what AGD was sued over?
Yeah, I have all the specifics…. They were never sued by SP over anything. In fact, Tom posted more than once that SP never contacted him at all about anything. But with that said, there are members who claim that Tom told them that he WAS contacted by SP on legal matters. So… someone is lying because you can’t have it both ways.

[Lohman446]

As I understand it TK was never sued, but there may have been a less formal indication made to him on a personal level (or perhaps a cease and desist letter even) that may have indicated there was an issue. This is all conjecture of course, not having the whole story.

Those posting that SP is the reason for the demise of the E/X mag... its been how long and there is still inventory, indicates to me a lack of sales if you want my guess. Stating SP is the only reason, is blatantly false and goes directly against what TK has flat out stated in the past. Of course.. if you want to blame them I guess all the facts in the world wont stop you

[Dayspring]

It is TRUE that Tom received paperwork from SP. Did it go to court? No.

The reason I know? TOM TOLD ME HIMSELF.

Does that mean that AGD got sued? No. Does that mean that SP forced them to stop making it? No. Is it a factor, you betcha!

[Lohman446]

It is TRUE that Tom received paperwork from SP. Did it go to court? No.

The reason I know? TOM TOLD ME HIMSELF.

Does that mean that AGD got sued? No. Does that mean that SP forced them to stop making it? No. Is it a factor, you betcha!

Factor, most definetly. When doing a risk to reward consideration of production one takes in many factors, including the risk of being sued by a consumer for injury, or by a patent holder. I agree that it was a factor, and I agree with you that it was not THE factor.

[shartley]

It is TRUE that Tom received paperwork from SP. Did it go to court? No.

The reason I know? TOM TOLD ME HIMSELF.

And Tom openly posted on AO that SP had not contacted him at all. He also posted this at the same time he gave all the reasons he was stopping production of the e series.

Different stories it would seem.

I can not go with what is claimed was told in person, but what I saw (and all other members saw) posted openly for the world to see. I realize this however causes a bit of a problem and I hope you don’t take it personally. I am in NO way questioning your credibility or calling you a liar. I am only pointing out that the information you say was told to you contradicts what Tom himself posted on AO.

[Dryden]

its been how long and there is still inventory, indicates to me a lack of sales if you want my guess.I don't disagree with this, but I think it's somewhat disingenuous to cite lack of sales of an outdated product when the threat of a lawsuit is persuasive enough to prevent expanding/redesigning the marker for the next generation. Why buy a stock Emag at $850 when you can track down a lightly used one for between $500 or $600? Shop the B/S/T here and you could buy/build an E-Karta for less. I mean, as near as I can tell there is a greater demand for CnC battery packs than there is for E/Xmags.

There are a dozen reasons why the marker is discontinued, and it required a host of these popping up in succession to end production.

Sam, see here (I don't seem to remember you visiting AO much, if at all, at the beginning of this year, so possibly you missed the post at the bottom?):

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=168897

[Lohman446]

I'll take Daysprings word for it that TK was served papers - perhaps after the discontinuation of the E/X mag. SP may have done this just to assure that a sold AGD would have an issue.

From that post it would to me be more of one of the Gardners mentioning to TK that they beleived that all E-markers violated there patent - and a casual comment like that as others are being sued, would have definite weight.

I think both Sam and Dayspring may be right here, and it may just be an issue of timing from when Dayspring talked to TK and when the E/X was discontinued

[shartley]

I don't disagree with this, but I think it's somewhat disingenuous to cite lack of sales of an outdated product when the threat of a lawsuit is persuasive enough to prevent expanding/redesigning the marker for the next generation. Why buy a stock Emag at $850 when you can track down a lightly used one for between $500 or $600? Shop the B/S/T here and you could buy/build an E-Karta for less. I mean, as near as I can tell there is a greater demand for CnC battery packs than there is for E/Xmags.

There are a dozen reasons why the marker is discontinued, and it required a host of these popping up in succession to end production.

Sam, see here (I don't seem to remember you visiting AO much, if at all, at the beginning of this year, so possibly you missed the post at the bottom?):

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=168897No, I didn’t see that. Thanks for posting it. It is indeed interesting. But it still does not take away from the fact that Tom openly stated (at the very same time as he announced reasons for discontinuing the e series markers) that he had NOT received any paperwork from SP. Of course this may all be word games, you see how he states “contacted” in that post (with the parentheses) and did not say he was served with any legal paperwork.

To me this all looks like political word games now only meant to stir up bad feelings and muddy the water. The e-series would have been discontinued SP or no SP. You hit the nail on the head when you say a host of things have to pop up in succession to end production.

I'll take Daysprings word for it that TK was served papers - perhaps after the discontinuation of the E/X mag. SP may have done this just to assure that a sold AGD would have an issue.

From that post it would to me be more of one of the Gardners mentioning to TK that they beleived that all E-markers violated there patent - and a casual comment like that as others are being sued, would have definite weight.

I think both Sam and Dayspring may be right here, and it may just be an issue of timing from when Dayspring talked to TK and when the E/X was discontinued
I can agree with this statement.

[SpitFire1299]

They still sell emags..

ULE EMAG SALE!!
http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=398&categoryID=86

[JimmyBeam]

my opinion......

i dont know Tom like the rest of you do, but my impression of him was that money was not the driving force for him making markers as much as it is for other companies. and so instead of the hassle of dealing with patent issues, he probably just didnt want the headaches. im sure im way off here, but thats just what i gathered from lurking here.

besides, he has many other interests besides paintball correct?

[WARPED1]

In 2 words.... Smart Parts


Longer explanation... Smart Parts started suing all these companies for infringing on a patent they "own" and it was in AGD's best intrest to stop making the emag.
But SP offered to any company making e guns to pay a lisencing fee to continue production. AGD and AKA decided not to pay. Now, the SP paten has been dismissed, appearently, WDP had prior art or some such.

[AGD]

Guys,

To set the record straight:

We were contacted by SP about potential violations under their previous patent on the shocker. This was not the patent they ended up sueing everyone on. This told us we were not immune in the long run.

We were told by high level individuals in the company that they didn't see anyone that they believed was not in violation of their patents.

We were never contacted about violations under the latest patent that everyone else was sued for but we figured we were on the list.

When it came time to think about revamping the emag there were several considerations:
The investment in a new design
Once we commited to a new design and the money, if we were sued it would mean we would have to commit to a license.
We didnt have the money to do both the license and the revamp.
The odds of coming up with a succesful product that could cover the costs of the development and the license were low.
Overall money risk against likelyhood of success we determined was not worth the risk reward ratio.

Thats why we didn't go on to make another Emag. RIP.

AGD

[Lohman446]

But SP offered to any company making e guns to pay a lisencing fee to continue production. AGD and AKA decided not to pay. Now, the SP paten has been dismissed, appearently, WDP had prior art or some such.

It was not dismissed, it was found that WDP and SP jointly hold rights to the patent - but it still exists and can be enforced against anyone else. It has to do with SPs purchase of PVI and Dr. Hinschels (sp) rights to it do to failure to sign a work product agreement wtih PVI that left part of the rights with him. Its a solution only lawyers could come up with because it confuses everyone else

[WARPED1]

Guys,

To set the record straight:

We were contacted by SP about potential violations under their previous patent on the shocker. This was not the patent they ended up sueing everyone on. This told us we were not immune in the long run.

We were told by high level individuals in the company that they didn't see anyone that they believed was not in violation of their patents.

We were never contacted about violations under the latest patent that everyone else was sued for but we figured we were on the list.

When it came time to think about revamping the emag there were several considerations:
The investment in a new design
Once we commited to a new design and the money, if we were sued it would mean we would have to commit to a license.
We didnt have the money to do both the license and the revamp.
The odds of coming up with a succesful product that could cover the costs of the development and the license were low.
Overall money risk against likelyhood of success we determined was not worth the risk reward ratio.

Thats why we didn't go on to make another Emag. RIP.

AGD
Thanks TK, that clears up alot. It's too bad you had to drop the Emag, good gun, except that fugly battery.

[Dayspring]

Actually, it was at the Texas Throwdown, not this past December, but the year prior. We were sitting at the restaraunt with the crew from PaintballMaXX.

So that predates the Emag/Xmag discontinuation.



I'll take Daysprings word for it that TK was served papers - perhaps after the discontinuation of the E/X mag. SP may have done this just to assure that a sold AGD would have an issue.

From that post it would to me be more of one of the Gardners mentioning to TK that they beleived that all E-markers violated there patent - and a casual comment like that as others are being sued, would have definite weight.

I think both Sam and Dayspring may be right here, and it may just be an issue of timing from when Dayspring talked to TK and when the E/X was discontinued

[AGD-OfficeGal]

They still sell emags..

ULE EMAG SALE!!
http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=398&categoryID=86

Glad somebody noticed! :tard:

Marcia

[BD_Paintball]

they still have emags on the AGD site but look at the price tag, ouch

[JimmyBeam]

they still have emags on the AGD site but look at the price tag, ouch


yea 850. and not many will keep it stock, so......wow thats a hefty pricetag

[dahoeb]

eek. if it was in the 700's i'm sure it would sell much better.

[JimmyBeam]

eek. if it was in the 700's i'm sure it would sell much better.

or go the way of the Ion, sell the stock marker cheap, and make a killing off ups


/runs and hides

[dahoeb]

or go the way of the Ion, sell the stock marker cheap, and make a killing off ups


/runs and hides


hahahaha i don't think it should go quite THAT cheap.

[JimmyBeam]

hahahaha i don't think it should go quite THAT cheap.


im not saying 284, but quite a bit cheaper than 800.

[MadPSIence]

I'm gettin all emotional seein tom and marcia postin in a thread. :(

i miss the old AGD.

Tom, tell us again why crown tip barrels kick ***? :headbang:

[Teamslayer76]

I'm gettin all emotional seein tom and marcia postin in a thread. :(

i miss the old AGD.

Tom, tell us again why crown tip barrels kick ***? :headbang:

Yes, tell us the way of the crown! Again.

I'm thinking of the video, the repair one. I remember way way way back I saw that minimag at the end of the video. I thought man I really need to get me one of those! And talking about the compressed air tanks...Whoa WHOA Takes me back....

[Mind'sEye]

Tom, tell us again why crown tip barrels kick ***? :headbang:

Ahh yes, The old 68 Automag video. It's still somewhere in the garage. I remember Tom saying that the tip of the crown point barrel just "disappears".............. :hail:

[WARPED1]

Rember the end of the 68 vid where Tom tested the Sydarm? It kept jamming on him!

[Carbon]

it still trip me out the the Emag came around when the 1st angels came out.

The design although, clunky has proven to be reliable for me.

[alooney11]

Some where known to burst into flames.

[11 Bravo]

The EMAG will keep up with most any marker out on the market. AGD should have just made some small cosmetic changes and kept it on the market. screw SP.

[WARPED1]

It's still too clunky, AGD should have released the ULE body years ago. They also should have joined the hype parade and made the mag LP. While we all know the truth, most buyers out there don't care and it probably would'vbe sold more Emags. I remember when I was selling my Emag, an interested buyer asked "what's the input pressure?" I said 650, he said "whoa! no thanks."

[Muzikman]

it still trip me out the the Emag came around when the 1st angels came out.

The design although, clunky has proven to be reliable for me.


Emag came out when the Angels first came out?!?!?! Am I missing something here? The Emag did not come out until what? 2000? The Angel came out in what? 1997?

[Eagle]

Emag came out when the Angels first came out?!?!?! Am I missing something here? The Emag did not come out until what? 2000? The Angel came out in what? 1997?

Yeah, that's about what I was thinkin.

[Carbon]

well, what ever year it came out...its still somewhat relic ish compared to a lot of other guns

[bleachit]

Guys,

To set the record straight:

We were contacted by SP about potential violations under their previous patent on the shocker. This was not the patent they ended up sueing everyone on. This told us we were not immune in the long run.

We were told by high level individuals in the company that they didn't see anyone that they believed was not in violation of their patents.

We were never contacted about violations under the latest patent that everyone else was sued for but we figured we were on the list.

When it came time to think about revamping the emag there were several considerations:
The investment in a new design
Once we commited to a new design and the money, if we were sued it would mean we would have to commit to a license.
We didnt have the money to do both the license and the revamp.
The odds of coming up with a succesful product that could cover the costs of the development and the license were low.
Overall money risk against likelyhood of success we determined was not worth the risk reward ratio.

Thats why we didn't go on to make another Emag. RIP.

AGD

even with this post, rumors will spread.....

[WAH11AU]

even with this post, rumors will spread.....


Sorry guy's, i might be a bit slow but when did all this happen?????
When did they decide to stop making the emag??

[jewie27]

X-Mag is better. That's why.

[Dayspring]

Several Months ago.


Sorry guy's, i might be a bit slow but when did all this happen?????
When did they decide to stop making the emag??

[Lohman446]

X-Mag is better. That's why.

And was discontinued at the same time the E-mag was... or perhaps a bit earlier. Funny how that works

[Dayspring]

Xmag is the SAME GUN as the Emag. Just a different body.


X-Mag is better. That's why.

[AGD-OfficeGal]

To set the record straight: The Xmag was discontinued a year ago. As Tom noted at the time, in addition to the uncertain legal climate surrounding electronic triggers, it had become extremely difficult for us to get those fancy X-bodies. (Airgun Europe has since ceased production of the Xmag as well.) Emags are not yet discontinued; again, at the time Tom stated that we would phase them out when the stock of certain essential parts needed for manufacture (not spare parts!) was low/gone. That hasn't happened yet.

I'm just going to bite my tongue - hard - rather than reply to the discussion of pricing.

Marcia

[WARPED1]

My question is why are we still discussing this!? Tom himself gave the real reason. Fin. Mods, close thread.

[Lohman446]

My question is why are we still discussing this!? Tom himself gave the real reason. Fin. Mods, close thread.

Because, it wasn't 100% SPs fault so we are going to continue to discuss it until we bury TKs response in wild guess and accusation, supported by a few widely spaced and mostly inconsequential facts until we can make it SPs fault again... like duh

[11 Bravo]

So its SPs fault again?
yeah down with SP!!!!! :dance: :dance:

[WARPED1]

Because, it wasn't 100% SPs fault so we are going to continue to discuss it until we bury TKs response in wild guess and accusation, supported by a few widely spaced and mostly inconsequential facts until we can make it SPs fault again... like duh
Kids today, they don't make them like they used to......................... :p

[WAH11AU]

To set the record straight: The Xmag was discontinued a year ago. As Tom noted at the time, in addition to the uncertain legal climate surrounding electronic triggers, it had become extremely difficult for us to get those fancy X-bodies. (Airgun Europe has since ceased production of the Xmag as well.) Emags are not yet discontinued; again, at the time Tom stated that we would phase them out when the stock of certain essential parts needed for manufacture (not spare parts!) was low/gone. That hasn't happened yet.

I'm just going to bite my tongue - hard - rather than reply to the discussion of pricing.

Marcia


Thanks Marcia,

Adam

[blykins]

The EMAG will keep up with most any marker out on the market. AGD should have just made some small cosmetic changes and kept it on the market. screw SP.

Not when youve got peolpe pulling at 4bps but shooitng 20bps b/c of ramp. "Emags dont ramp therefore they are not cool."--local baller at my field

[Lohman446]

Not when youve got peolpe pulling at 4bps but shooitng 20bps b/c of ramp. "Emags dont ramp therefore they are not cool."--local baller at my field

The E-mag was going downhill before ramping was so easily and readily available to the everyday player.

[WARPED1]

The E-mag was going downhill before ramping was so easily and readily available to the everyday player.
Don't get this wrong, because I like Emags for what they are. The best rec gun ever made. The concept was great for tourney players, but didn't have the bells and whistles todays tourney plasyer wants. The ULE doesn't count because it came out too late to save the Emag. I t would be cool if AGD bought the Devikmag design and made it LP.

[slade]

Not when youve got peolpe pulling at 4bps but shooitng 20bps b/c of ramp. "Emags dont ramp therefore they are not cool."--local baller at my field
what lohman said, plus... predator board anyone?

WARPED1 - i dont think the mag design can be made lower pressure, while keeping the level 10. plus the only real advantage LP has is allowing it to shoot further into the tank. making it LP might kill the recharge also.

[r-unit]

I was about to say that, Slade. With the Predator Board, we can put these "ion" characters to shame. Hell, I am a hard-core "angel, timmy, dm4/5/c, ego, shocker" type user person, and I saw the Predator board for the emag...Im buying one now.

[WARPED1]

what lohman said, plus... predator board anyone?

WARPED1 - i dont think the mag design can be made lower pressure, while keeping the level 10. plus the only real advantage LP has is allowing it to shoot further into the tank. making it LP might kill the recharge also.
I know about LP. But it's the buxx word that would sell the gun, well at least help. If lp would kill the current recharge, redesign the valve. Being electro you wouldn't need ReacTivity.
I'm not arguing with the function of the Emag, it works. But it doesn't look good, you may say "function over fasion" and all that crap, but it matters in todays game. Not to make the gun shoot better, because it doesn't, but for sales. No one will buy your gun(except here on AO:)) if it doesn't look good and shoot LP...............

[11 Bravo]

All they need to do is upgrade the Emag board. Most any gun can ramp. Its not the gun its
the board. My A5 shoots 17 bps with my WAS board. It could shoot even faster if the feeder could keep up.

[JRingold]

To set the record straight: The Xmag was discontinued a year ago. As Tom noted at the time, in addition to the uncertain legal climate surrounding electronic triggers, it had become extremely difficult for us to get those fancy X-bodies. (Airgun Europe has since ceased production of the Xmag as well.) Emags are not yet discontinued; again, at the time Tom stated that we would phase them out when the stock of certain essential parts needed for manufacture (not spare parts!) was low/gone. That hasn't happened yet.

I'm just going to bite my tongue - hard - rather than reply to the discussion of pricing.

Marcia

At the new price, I should buy a new E-Mag. I just got my "new in box" X-Mag from PPP in Toronto a couple of weeks back and I think my wife wouldn't be too happy about it. Dang good sale price though.

E-Mags are not yet discontinued... Is anyone able to estimate a projection of timeframe for that to occur? I'm not asking anyone to provide this information, just does someone there know???

[WARPED1]

I may buy one used to slap in the new Pred. board.................

[oELEPHANTo]

Smart Parts=Hitler

[WARPED1]

Smart Parts=Hitler
Don't be a butt face. How the hell can you compare a recreational game company to a ruthless dictator who commited genocide!? Go away...........

[Target Practice]

Smart Parts=Hitler

Nice one, chief. All you posts are gold today, aren't they?

[Dubstar112]

Don't be a butt face. How the hell can you compare a recreational game company to a ruthless dictator who commited genocide!? Go away...........


Take that with a grain of salt. Incase you couldnt decipher his text I believe he was trying to say that Smart Parts wants to be superior and to do that they must get rid of all the others. By others I mean all competition etc. Hence the patents, hence the trail of events that led to certain companies removing products, paying out of their pockets for licensing and other companies completley closing their doors.

So before i tell somone to go away I put a little bit of energy to see what they were trying to accomplish.

[Lohman446]

Don't be a butt face. How the hell can you compare a recreational game company to a ruthless dictator who commited genocide!?

Egocentric idiocy. Any other questions?

[WARPED1]

Take that with a grain of salt. Incase you couldnt decipher his text I believe he was trying to say that Smart Parts wants to be superior and to do that they must get rid of all the others. By others I mean all competition etc. Hence the patents, hence the trail of events that led to certain companies removing products, paying out of their pockets for licensing and other companies completley closing their doors.

So before i tell somone to go away I put a little bit of energy to see what they were trying to accomplish.
No. Anyone who compares a game to frigging Hitler needs a slap in the face. There is no excuse ever to make that comparison. Frankly it offends me, could have something to do with my grandfather losing some brothers fighting Germans...........

[Target Practice]

Take that with a grain of salt. Incase you couldnt decipher his text I believe he was trying to say that Smart Parts wants to be superior and to do that they must get rid of all the others. By others I mean all competition etc. Hence the patents, hence the trail of events that led to certain companies removing products, paying out of their pockets for licensing and other companies completley closing their doors.

So before i tell somone to go away I put a little bit of energy to see what they were trying to accomplish.

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

[WARPED1]

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
I like that law!

[frischtr]

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

Quality! Definetely in the bookmarks...

[Archangel Zer0]

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
You can't invoke it! Sheesh...

[WARPED1]

You can't invoke it! Sheesh...
Yes. He can, and did.

[Dubstar112]

that is an excellent resource. i use it all the time

the goal of my post explaining it was to explain his tasteless comment. Not support it.

the wikipedia article is definatley right and i wasnt arguing for him. redundant but thats how i like it.

i realize this is a touchy subject and he should, WE ALL should be carful how we toss these kinds of phrases around.

So TP you can direct that link to somone else...

[Teamslayer76]

I declare Shenanigians!

I wonder why AGD Europe stopped makeing the X-Mag body....They were well awsome to say the least. And yeah I think if the Emag was realased with a full ULE frame and body it would have sold more. Also you could set the internal reg down to make the claims of "low pressure" or make a new product base of extremely high pressure markers. Then marker the Emag as low pressure. Or wait that was already done... Rant Rant Rant end...

[jewie27]

Xmag is the SAME GUN as the Emag. Just a different body.


that's why it's better............................................ ............... not the same gun.

[blykins]

Xmag and Emag are very similar, main differnence is body milling, detachable breech, eyes, and battery case miling. Other than that, yes they are the same gun.

[Dayspring]

So if I put a vert stainless body on a classic, does it make it a different gun when I put a ULE body on it? No.


that's why it's better............................................ ............... not the same gun.

[Muzikman]

Also, an ALL ULE Emag (using parts from coolhand and Rogue) will actually be lighter than an Xmag.

Just incase someone sayd an Xmag is better because it's lighter.

[oELEPHANTo]

Take that with a grain of salt. Incase you couldnt decipher his text I believe he was trying to say that Smart Parts wants to be superior and to do that they must get rid of all the others. By others I mean all competition etc. Hence the patents, hence the trail of events that led to certain companies removing products, paying out of their pockets for licensing and other companies completley closing their doors.

So before i tell somone to go away I put a little bit of energy to see what they were trying to accomplish.
I probaly should have restated what I said but Dubstar explains.

Smart Parts= Paintball "Nazis" ?

[blykins]

Pretty much. I do not apprectiate the way they do business and therefore I will not support their products.

[Archangel Zer0]

Yes. He can, and did.
Lies.

Quirk's exception to Godwin's Law.

[SCpoloRicker]

Lies.

Quirk's exception to Godwin's Law.

You had it moving strong for a while there. ;)