Has the electro seen its peak?

[RogueFactor]

I have spoken to MANY ballers over the last year that have either quit paintball altogether, have taken a lengthy and undetermined break, moved onto Scenario, or gone back to pump.

Whatever the reason really doenst matter, but the one thing that these players have in common is ditching the electro-ball mentality.

I have heard from a few separate sources that pump markers are seeing a resurggence, and mfr's are busy as ever.

Has the electro market seen its peak?

[WARPED1]

No, but has reached a plateau.

[Army]

Yup, I would agree with plateau. I haven't played with my Emag since I've been home, preferring the MiniMag or Golden Gun. Last time I played, it was all about the Sydarm....too fun!

I did not see a decrease in the number of players I shot out....nor an increase for that matter.

[Carbon]

i think the real question is: Is the marketing of tournament competition culture reached its peak/plateau?

Im willing to bet the folks who go back to the roots paintball is becuase they are sick of the tournament mentality/culture maybe? Or the pseudo tourney menatlity of popular rec. paintball. It is understandable, there is a darkside.

[Vex]

I would say that "plateau" is a very good analogy. There are still going to be the kids that mommy and daddy buy the shockers for, but then you'll have to poor bastards, like me, who can only afford mechanical. However, with all the money I've put into my mech, I could have a kick butt electro! Alas, it wouldn't have been the same experience, though. I've had many years of enjoyment whilst transitioning my Mag.

[Vex]

there is a darkside.
Cloud your judgement, the darkside does!

[Scott Hudnall]

Electros have certainly have reached a plateau.

One reason for more pump sales for manufactures is the simple fact that there are more players out there, and with more players staying in the game/sport longer, you'll find them wanting a different thrill from their game. Thus, exploring the "roots" of the game with stock and pump markers.

My first 10 man tournament (ahem...way back in the day) it was very common to see a mix of pump and semi's on the field......we had one automag on the team and thought that guy was invincible.

It's good news that every aspect of the game grows, from stock to pump to semi, tournament, scenario, etc.

Now, how about more affordable paint????

[WARPED1]

So you think it will go higher?
It can, just give R+D some time...........

[ShaftyMcGee]

Personally i have made the move down from elctro to pump or mech. If i do use my emag i have it in mech and i play hopper ball so the speed isn't important at all. My reasons for switching were to learn to play better rather then spray paint. I also wanted to save money and its just more fun. :)

oh and it doesn't help that quite a few tourny players are self righteous jerks :rolleyes:

[WARPED1]

Anything can happen, but do you think it will go up?
Yes but I don't know how.

[master_alexander]

well if everone agrees its a plateau then its not going to go up that much at all... remember from history a plateau is like a table? yea. so then it will eventually have a downfall.

[Miscue]

I dislike paintball now very much... I'd still play if it were all mech. I only go to AO events now.

IMO... electronics + paintball = complete BS. It creates so many problems, does not make the game better (different maybe), etc.

The bastards on the field got WORSE with electros. Before it was one thing if you were a big jerk and could only pull the trigger at 5bps. Now rat bastards have an electronic device that shoots itself to be a super rat bastard. I am sick as hell of being ridiculously overshot by goddamn 13 year old POS cheating bastards who over-celebrate their wins that were won by cheating big time... thinking to ourselves that we shot that mofo 3 times that's rubbing the win in our faces telling us how much we suck... and if we had a clean game they'd get destroyed.

The incentive to move has been lost... the clean game is dead. Too many dirtbags play this game.

I can't get a clean game. WTF is the purpose of spending so much time, money, and effort on something when the game is played so dirty? Why don't I just buy a case of paint for my opponents, ask to be kicked in the nuts, and go home a "loser"?

[master_alexander]

miscue pretty much said it. ive only been playing a year and decided to go with a mag over a dm3. im glad too. so much better. im getting an emag to keep up with the other high end guns. if it were all semi i bet that annyone of the people on AO would be able to go kick some butt if the other guys had semi's too. its jus a differnet style of play now.

[afultz075]

I too am one of the people that has returned to roots after a stint of tourneyball. The culture got old very quickly for me, and the practices were becoming more of a chore that I had to spend my weekends on (which is the reason why I have quit every other competitive sport i've been involved in, baseball, soccer, etc.; the practices and win or die mentality got old). Then I realized that I simply had more fun in the sport playing rec-ball whenever I wanted like in my earlier days of paintball without spending the ludicrous amounts of cash on practices/tournies.

So I quit my team and sold every bit of gear I had, dug out my old camo gear, harness, etc. and got into pumps and Palmer markers. I play whenever I feel like it with a group of likeminded people and have a blast. I enjoy just about every facet of paintball now, rec-ball, sneario, etc. I even still ocassionally play walk-on speedball where my team used to practice, although this time with a pump most likely.

[WARPED1]

Instead of returning to my roots and going mech, I embraced the 21st century and enjoy the fast paced game of today, and I've played all forms of paintball. I been playing 16 years now. Adapt to survive, survival of the fittest. Deal. :p

[Bear_Claw]

I been playing for a while (long enough to see the upriseing of electros) and can honestly say that electros if NOT banned or at least more regulated IT WILL be the end of the speedball side of the game at the least.

i dont pay money to play a game in witch my oppnent unloads a hopper on me "just to make shure im out" and in turn when i hit him/her they simply wipe it off and continue the game. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE HONOUR OF THE GAME? my belife is it got FRIED when the elctros became mainstream.

I have never owne ANY electro markers (i have shot a few) and NEVER will. I STARTED in this game with a pump gun and movede to semis (all mehcs). I owned ONE full auto (RT 98C) and sold it in preferance of aslower more skill involved carbine.

IF i ever go back to the game i will add a 3rd gun to my arsenal an it WILL be a Phantom.

[punkncat]

oh and it doesn't help that quite a few tourny players are self righteous jerks :rolleyes:

I have played paintball for many years. I get along pretty well with most players on the field. I recently have actually entered the tourney scene. I have played with that level of player for the past few years.
You have to understand the situation that many long time or "tourney" players find themselves in.
When you are a noob you go to the field to play. If you have a problem with your marker you ask a more experianced person to help with your problem. You are always asking to see better markers, asking questions, etc. Its usually of these better players, or the "tourney" players equipment and time....

Nowdays when I go to the field there are many days that I spend a good portion of my time fixing "noobs" markers, and answering questions I have answered a million times. In stead of being able to just go play w/o hassle I am having to be an emmisary of sorts, catering to this swarm of outside influence.
Some days you just don't want to put up with this stuff. just want to get some good game on with other people at your level w/o the hassle of babysitting a bunch of new guys. Lots of people find out that the easiest way to deal with this is by having an attitude of indifference to noobs. Therefore you don't spend half your day looking after their common and recurring problems.

[Miscue]

Instead of returning to my roots and going mech, I embraced the 21st century and enjoy the fast paced game of today, and I've played all forms of paintball. I been playing 16 years now. Adapt to survive, survival of the fittest. Deal. :p

Ha. Survival of the fittest! Last I checked, it didn't take much fitness to click a switch a couple times and the gun shoots for you at 20bps. Ooh, look at me laning! So much talent! Watch me camp here and wiggle my fingers! I can snap shoot 20 balls out, check that out!

If I were into fishing and they allowed the use of technology such as TNT - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

If I were into target shooting and they allowed you to mount your gun to an electronically controlled servo that uses a video feed and laser sights to aim at the target - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

If I was into cycling and they allowed you to use a motor assist (limited to X horsepower) - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

Why do we play these games/sports in the first place? Are these changes consistent with the original purpose?

[Miscue]

I been playing for a while (long enough to see the upriseing of electros) and can honestly say that electros if NOT banned or at least more regulated IT WILL be the end of the speedball side of the game at the least.


I don't see how it could be the end of speedball. However, I think the quality of the game continually lowers.

[WARPED1]

I been playing for a while (long enough to see the upriseing of electros) and can honestly say that electros if NOT banned or at least more regulated IT WILL be the end of the speedball side of the game at the least.

i dont pay money to play a game in witch my oppnent unloads a hopper on me "just to make shure im out" and in turn when i hit him/her they simply wipe it off and continue the game. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE HONOUR OF THE GAME? my belife is it got FRIED when the elctros became mainstream.

I have never owne ANY electro markers (i have shot a few) and NEVER will. I STARTED in this game with a pump gun and movede to semis (all mehcs). I owned ONE full auto (RT 98C) and sold it in preferance of aslower more skill involved carbine.

IF i ever go back to the game i will add a 3rd gun to my arsenal an it WILL be a Phantom.
Thats not the Eguns fault, that's cheating players wiping and playing on. When pneumag frames finally come out, watch just about every AO'er who buys one, overshoot.

Ha. Survival of the fittest! Last I checked, it didn't take much fitness to click a switch a couple times and the gun shoots for you at 20bps. Ooh, look at me laning! So much talent! Watch me camp here and wiggle my fingers! I can snap shoot 20 balls out, check that out!

If I were into fishing and they allowed the use of technology such as TNT - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

If I were into target shooting and they allowed you to mount your gun to an electronically controlled servo that uses a video feed and laser sights to aim at the target - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

If I was into cycling and they allowed you to use a motor assist (limited to X horsepower) - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

Why do we play these games/sports in the first place? Are these changes consistent with the original purpose?
Thats NPPL, there is much more movement in XBall, face it, you're out of touch ya old fart.(that was a joke!):p

[Ripforce56]

Iam 48 years old and started playing paintball with my 3 boys 7 years ago, we live in the country so we played woodsball with Tippman 98s, Mini- mags etc! We dressed in camo and we always had friends that came over to try the sport out and everyone had a good time because the playing field was level for everyone because no one had an advantage because of the marker they were using! It was about making good moves and shots and working together! But soon we started to play at our local paintball field and everyone including me bought in to the electro phenomenon! (Vikings E-mags, Timmys Electric cockers and now Protos and Ions etc.) Every time a new marker came out someone bought one and had to make it shoot faster, ( as if it needed to be ) Maybe a 100 balls a second will be enough Ha Ha! What I noticed is that we were not having as much fun any more, there was more short tempers, complaints of being overshot, and lots of trash talking going on. Because now the game was "Balls per Sec" and not about making good shots! Slowly our games started to get smaller and smaller, as players started to give up the sport! Now sadly our field has closed, so unless you play tourney ball our high end markers are useless! I have since parted out my E-Mag and bought a Phantom and now have a nice collection of pumps as do my kids, we now have about 15 pump markers in our house and other people have done the same! Guess what? The "Fun" is back again, snap shooting, making a good move, and Teamwork! Plus we play all day and use minimal paint and air! My older boys play college paintball and tourney ball, but they now love pump play the best! I do have a mech. ULE R/T mag in case I need it , but I do Believe that "Old School Paintball" Pump,Mechanical etc is coming Back! :cheers:

[mobsterboy]

truer words have never been said

I have seen my slow decay into tthe tourney and electro scene. Back when I used to play woodsball with my friends, it was more of a fps duel, than a bps. It was a matter of "Sure, you've got an egrip for your a-5, but my mag(Single trigger) can go straight through wood Which i have no idea why all of you complained, you just didnt shoot your gun at a high enough chrono. CHOP???, never heard of it before i went speedball. It was truly fun. A hide and seek in the woods game, but since i went out with a friend, i found myself wanting faster and faster guns, and my pockets went from able to buy draxxus midnight for each game, to buying 2 buck chuck(For all you ppl in Cali with trader joes around, look for it, its a hellacheap wine)Paintballs for 20 a case. Not to say i dont like speedball, i just need to remind myself that im there for the fun. Win some. lose some. Im currently going back oldschool, building a cool hyperframed ule mag, but its more for show than playing. Everyone keeps asking "when are ya gonna morlock/pred it and wheres your emag/x valve?" But i figure my classic holds up, and cfoa only allows 15 anyway. I am about to get an angel, and the same questions will be up,"Wheres the ramping?" some ppl just dont catch on that with enough practice, the ramping is inside your fingers, errr....so to speak. Same with the cocker i have. Im talking with my tech and someguys like nice cocker, so i tell him thats pretty much my idea of a great cocker, and hes like, "No way dude, wheres teh blade?" Ppl just think its about having the fastest, not the most accurate

[spyder luver]

Instead of returning to my roots and going mech, I embraced the 21st century and enjoy the fast paced game of today, and I've played all forms of paintball. I been playing 16 years now. Adapt to survive, survival of the fittest. Deal. :p




I completely agree with ^! I didnt like playing mech its not fast enough for me, there isnt enough thrill of only having 12 balls max shoot out at u when u sprint for ur bunker, v.s 20 balls shootin at u imo it makes the game much more fun with electros and i shoot a low end electro which doesnt have ramp and i can throw out a constint 13 bps with my revy on. o i forgot to add i also started out with a brass eagle talon playing sum pump it was fun but not nearly as fun as even mech which after my pump i got a 98c and started to pimp it out but eventually sold all the upgrades and bought my spyder pilot acs and i luv being able to shoot faster then my friends! lol *they r working on upgrading their guns to electros* ....... but anywho im getting tired of typing so im gunna shut up....


o by the way all of u who r griping about the new electros dont gripe unless uve tried and if u have tried and u didnt like it shut up about the people with um and let them play how they like to *but wiping and playing on now thats just totally wrong!!!* :nono:

[Pyroboy597]

I think paintball will be the way it is now for a long time. Technology for faster hoppers, faster recharging regulators, and better air efficiency are at the limit that they can be at without sacrificing either money or quality. I dont think that paintball will ever be all pumps and old cockers, but i do think that those types of markers are showing up more often. Ive seen people play speedball with big wooden-stocked guns and be the last one standing. People will make a gun that can shoot 45bps with one finger on the trigger.. but it will not make money cause you cannot play at anywhere near those settings, and the cost of 45 balls per second is about a $1.50 a second... which is rediculous.

[11 Bravo]

I play alot of scenario games in Florida and I am sure that electros are here to stay. I see nothing but electros and guns with rt. I think I have seen two pump guns out there and one of them was Lee from AO. Other than that everyone is letting it rip.

[RogueFactor]

Instead of returning to my roots and going mech, I embraced the 21st century and enjoy the fast paced game of today, and I've played all forms of paintball. I been playing 16 years now. Adapt to survive, survival of the fittest. Deal. :p

The same thing could be said for baseball bats. At the pro level, wooden bats are the standard even though the 21st century alloys will allow players to hit further. To play pro, you either learn to play with wood, or you suck.

MLB knew that allowing anything but wooden bats just wasnt good for the sport at the pro level. Their vision for their sport surpassed the desires and needs of the manufacturers.

Embracing technology to compensate for a lack of skill isnt embracing a sport based on skill.

[FSU_Paintball]

You guys' experiences may differ... but around here we've got a lot of really good players and none of them shoot mechs. In fact, anyone who wants to compete around here shoots an electro. The only people around here who shoot mechs are those who want to step up but don't have the money yet. I don't see the electro dying out anytime soon, or even losing a large portion of the market anytime soon. I predict it will maintain a huge stranglehold on the market for a long time to come.

[SpitFire1299]

Old school is really fun. I dont like using my emag when we have team practice, because it takes 1 shot to take someone out(Well.. maybe more.. but im playing my own team). It takes a lot more to win when you have a mech gun, and obviously is more fun.

Also.. i dont understand whats so great about shooting REALLY fast. Who cares if your gun can shoot 20bps, its not needed at all. Its not electronic guns, its ignorant people. Xvalves can shoot +34bps tops.. but what does it matter? Its like riding a one speed bike, you can just about go as fast as you want, but you can only peddle so fast. Saying your gun can shoots 20bps max is like saying my 1 speed bike can go 100mph.

Heres a bonus..

Ideas usually come to me through stress. If something is not working, or I need to create something that has never been done before I will spend hours, days, even weeks thinking about it every free minute. I works for me like jigsaw puzzle where you have a lot of pieces laying on a mental table. I try to put them together in my mind and see what fits. The difference is I get to make up all the pieces. Eventually, just like a puzzle, the parts go together and once you get the big picture it goes together faster. Many times there are a few parts that fit together but don't go anywhere so you set them aside and see if they make sense with something else later.

That was how I used to do it on my own but that has changed now. When it comes to paintball I can only use the pieces you say you want. The players no longer give me the freedom to go where I think it should go, they have very specific ideas (whether true or not) about what they want.

For example, they only want stuff lighter, ok then it's plastic, no but they want it anodized pretty colors, ok then it's aluminum, yea but that is too expensive. Right about there is where religious perception comes in to drive new products. "NEW IMPROVED ALUMINUM COATED POLYMER! STRONGER THAN STEEL LIGHTER THAN AIR!" And the people say "YES, that's exactly what I wanted!" If it has any basis in fact has nothing to do with it, they take it anyway.

[RoadDawg]

Sold my emag, one because it took the "fun" or challenge out of the game. I'd much rather go to a mech only type of play. That way the only way a person will out shoot you... is with talent, not a deeper pocket book.

BTW I probably had a lots of fun playing speedball with a mech, then I ever did with any electro.

[minimag03]

Too funny :dance:

You're right. If we had our sigs, that would be sig worthy.

[SlartyBartFast]

The same thing could be said for baseball bats. At the pro level, wooden bats are the standard even though the 21st century alloys will allow players to hit further. To play pro, you either learn to play with wood, or you suck.

MLB knew that allowing anything but wooden bats just wasnt good for the sport at the pro level. Their vision for their sport surpassed the desires and needs of the manufacturers.

Embracing technology to compensate for a lack of skill isnt embracing a sport based on skill.

QFT. You and Miscue have made some great observations and analogies. :cheers:

Now, if I could only find a regular game where everyone was in the woods shooting Splatmasters. :D

[SlartyBartFast]

my belife is it got FRIED when the elctros became mainstream.

No, there was rampant cheating at the tournament level long before electros.

Honour was fired when every greedy egomaniac started to play for money and glory.

Paintball put in big prizes before there was the grass roots competion to sustain and define the sport.

Want honour and fun? Organise a local no prize tournament. Just give out ribbons.

Don't attend events with big money or equipment prizes. Attend events that are good fun and well reffed instead. For the amount paid in sponsorship and paint and money given to winners, many tournaments could be run at negligible cost to the participants without hurting the income of the promoters.

But the egos and greedy wallets are too stupid to recognise it.

[rabidchihauhau]

Embracing technology to compensate for a lack of skill isnt embracing a sport based on skill.


If there were technology available that let every 8 year old hit home runs, catch all the fly balls and steal bases at will, every kids' parents would by it and every kid would be playing little league baseball, and it would only be at the college/farm team level that the real players were weeded out from the pack.

Paintball's "skillless" growth is due entirely to the lowering of the bar on what is required to "play successfully".

"Back in the day", if you showed up to play for a woodsball tournament team and didn't have real skills, you lasted maybe one practice/try-out. These days, you can find a team, no matter how well or poorly you actually play.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Not sure. I do know that the digital age has allowed illiterates to work cash registers at McDonald's...

[lather]

What I dont understand is why does using an electro or a mech or pump have to be an all or nothing choice?

I have a 05 speed, a viking, a m98, level 10 mag, and a vsc phantom. When I feel like shooting a lot of paint, (and I admit I have fun doing it) I will use my Speed or Vik, but I will also put those electros down in favor of my mechs or my phantom if the mood strikes me.

Shooting a fast electro or playing stock class or Mech are all equally enjoyable to me, for different reasons.

Refusing to understand why someone may prefer an electro or a pump/mech does nothing but limit yourself to enjoying the different aspects of the game.

[billmi]

Yeah, electros have reached their peak, and now will fade away, just like compressed air faded away and everyone went back to CO2, and the way semis faded away and everyone went back to pumps, and the way constant air refillable CO2 tanks faded away and everyone went back to 12 grams, and the way hoppers faded away, and everyone went back to stick feeders.

Or maybe not.

[SlartyBartFast]

Or maybe not.

:rofl:

But, there certainly isn't very far for them to go from here. They'll still be around however.

Once you can reliably feed and shoot 15 bps what's the use of increased technology?

But then again, I've always said that paintball is the sport for ricers that can't afford cars. Xboxes and TVs and really stupid body work do nothing for a cars performance, but they sure look cool. :tard:

I'm surprised no-one has built a powder blue electro with a gameboy built into the grip. :rofl:

But if the gadgetude of the sport hits a plateau, perhaps it will mature and people will start wondering what the skills taht are supposed to be challenged are.

[RogueFactor]

If there were technology available that let every 8 year old hit home runs, catch all the fly balls and steal bases at will, every kids' parents would by it and every kid would be playing little league baseball, and it would only be at the college/farm team level that the real players were weeded out from the pack.

Thats almost exactly what happens with the bat analogy. You can use the alloy bats, up until pro.


I do know that the digital age has allowed illiterates to work cash registers at McDonald's...

Another one thats too funny :dance:

[PsychoBaller]

I've definately ditched the tourny scene altogether. Scenario and Pump combined are just way more fun, and the kills are more rewarding than just laying paint on someone.

:D Peoples really interested in Classic/Old/Rare Guns... including mostly pump, should head over to MCarterBrown.com

Thats where I picked up my Sheridan Wood Stock'd KP2. Blast from the past!


-baller

[NJPaint]

Heh, I got out of the electros a long time ago. Sold the timmys, sold the e-blade, sold the e-mags, sold the angel. Now I'm back to where I started, mech mag. Granted my first mag was ugly as sin, but its the same thing. I've found that the ultimate gun for me is the my ULE w/ X-valve, I-frame etc. Its a real head turner on the fields. It feels great to be able to rip faster than people who have electros but don't know how to use them.


I feel a little bad doing it, but last time I went out, I was with 4 friends who all rented equipment. After a few woods games I felt the urge to get back onto an airball field (maybe I really shouldn't have left tourney ball). Of course when we got to the airball field there were 10-12 15 year olds w/ timmys shooting the crap out of the field and I noted... they were playing on. We got in the cue and waited to get on. Then one of the kids actually came up to my friends and told them that they shouldn't be playing on the airball fields since their guns weren't meant to be used on it. Of course a bunch of 19 year olds aren't going to be told to leave by a 15 year old, but at least one of my friends had to be restrained from hitting the kid with the back of his rental mag.

First game, I decided that I would hit the 50 off the break and then move as quickly as I could up the field. Now this is where I feel guilty. The people that I have played with on AO/my former teamates know that I have never cheated and most would think that I would never do it ever. And that holds true now. But in that game I actually told myself that even if I got hit off the break I would make it to the 50 and play on. That is how pissed I was. Funniest part is that there was a blind spot on the field and I didn't get hit going there anyways :D. Anyways. After hitting the 50 I just litterally ran down the center of the field, switching sides with my mag after each bunker, eliminated all 5 players in less than 20 seconds. I think that THAT is now my favorite paintball memory.

Of course as soon as it ended one of the kids actually went into a tirade about how useless we all were and that in real tourney ball we wouldn't have a chance! I tried to not get involved, but we ended up getting into a pissing contest. We filled up two Evo II's full with paint and aimed at two trees about 50' away and just let the triggers fly. Now I'm not saying that this should/always will happen, but my ULE w/ ULT outshot his 2k2 Timmy. Granted, I'm pretty quick with mechs and he was ungodly slow with his timmy, but that was just icing on the cake. :)

[RogueFactor]

Yeah, electros have reached their peak, and now will fade away, just like compressed air faded away and everyone went back to CO2, and the way semis faded away and everyone went back to pumps, and the way constant air refillable CO2 tanks faded away and everyone went back to 12 grams, and the way hoppers faded away, and everyone went back to stick feeders.

Or maybe not.

Well, as previously stated, there are lots going back to pump. Many of the mfr's I have spoken with are out of stock, and/or back-ordered on their pumps. They cant keep up with demand.

Its been said that the CCI has seen growth in the last 2 years that exceed the last 10. How accurate that is, I dont know.

So, some of what youve said has merit. Will electros fade away? I think not.

Interestingly though, if electros do see their peak....what does this hold for the future?

[SlartyBartFast]

Interestingly though, if electros do see their peak....what does this hold for the future?

Stock Class X-Ball? :D

[sbpyro]

Stock Class X-Ball? :D

Now is it actually gonna be stock class or modified stock class.
I like the idea though

[manike]

Stock Class X-Ball? :D

Is honestly some of the most fun ever.

Actually we did stock class Hyperball with back to back games and it ruled. :)

[slade]

this is actually quite funny, i have a freestyle that i always use for tourneys and practice, but im going to the field with my friend tomorrow for rec play (on an xball field) and im actually hoping that the mech cocker i traded for will be here in time (i doubt it will though... :( ) because... well i just feel like using it instead of my freestyle. i actually bought a cocker in the first place because i wanted to make it a pump. (but the guy at my shop couldnt find the pump kit he was going to give me) the last time i went to the field the ref bet me that i would have my freestyle out after the first game, but i used my single finger slider cocker the whole day, despite the fact that the gravity feed hopper kept jamming.

[tony3]

Ha. Survival of the fittest! Last I checked, it didn't take much fitness to click a switch a couple times and the gun shoots for you at 20bps. Ooh, look at me laning! So much talent! Watch me camp here and wiggle my fingers! I can snap shoot 20 balls out, check that out!

If I were into fishing and they allowed the use of technology such as TNT - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

If I were into target shooting and they allowed you to mount your gun to an electronically controlled servo that uses a video feed and laser sights to aim at the target - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

If I was into cycling and they allowed you to use a motor assist (limited to X horsepower) - I wouldn't embrace it even if it was the "new thing."

Why do we play these games/sports in the first place? Are these changes consistent with the original purpose?

Are you joking? Have you ever seen a good xball game? There definitely is a lot of paint shooting but definitely lots of hard moving. Speedball from the start has been about shooting lots of paint and with better technology we will continue to shoot more, even though there is now a 15bps cap. I assume your 2 completely off base comparisons are to ramping/15bps ramping electros? I don't see how either of those things are close to ramping or the 15bps cap. TNT in fishing would just be stupid and with motor assist, no just stupid.

7 man is slow and dull and is really just people shooting a lot of paint. Hard to say that about xball though. Xball overall has changed the style of play. From the way people move, shoot, lane and even the xball field. Xball fields don't have big bunkers with lots of cover but they do reward the team that makes great bunkers because of the great angles. I know after playing xball that in 5 man tournies my team as a whole tends to play harder and pressure the other team much more.

I do have to say, if I played rec no way I'd shoot an electro. Definitely a new mech or a phantom. No reason for an electro is basic rec, even if you are playing speedball.

[StygShore]

I have been playing paintball for about 15 years now...man im old :)

I have ownes, shot, or played with just about every style of marker out there. When AGD started up the ULE line, and the xvalve and such, I remembered the good ole' days with my mags. I ended up building a pretty nice Emag ULE setup. I used it for about 3 months, and then, like every other electr I owned, it went by way of trade ( Road Dawg...sold that thing huh :) I have traded off every electro I have ever owned for one reason or another, but it usually came back down too - Whats the point of twitching my finger and throwing paint? If I am goign to pull a trigger, I wasnt a TRIGGER, not a mouse click.

I set up a beautiful Karta mecahnical with all the goodies, and the thing rips, I can shoot plenty fast enough to hold my own against ANY electro out there, and I honestly have more fun, and control of my game. I dont find myself laying hundreds of rounds long range just becasue my gun can shoot that fast, I pick my shots and make them count.

I must admit, it is kinda fun to shoot out that kid that just railed into my bunker with 600 rounds with a 17bps electro, and it only took my 6 shots to hit his hopper.

I have even recently ordered a SS-25 pump for the days when the mag is overkill for the walk on players, I just think it makes the game more fun, and improves your actuall skill level tremendously. And again.... it feels so good to one shot a hopper while someone is dumping pods of paint at me.

Has the Electro paintball guns reached their peak? Nah, I think they have saturated the market, destroyed the price points, and done a heck of a job convincing the kiddies that they are the gun to have. Someone will come out with something that makes them lighter, smaller, faster - thats a given - now someone needs to work on technology to get them to shoot farther, and be more accurate ( had to throw that in for the flatline advocates )

Styg

[RoadDawg]

I have ownes, shot, or played with just about every style of marker out there. When AGD started up the ULE line, and the xvalve and such, I remembered the good ole' days with my mags. I ended up building a pretty nice Emag ULE setup. I used it for about 3 months, and then, like every other electr I owned, it went by way of trade ( Road Dawg...sold that thing huh :)

Yup I did... I even added the 4.0 software to it and it wasn't enough (unless they got it reflashed someone has "RoadDawg's EMAG" scrolling when they boot up.) :) Overall though I'm heading back into either a mech or I might give a Devilmag a shot when I hit the lottery. I personally like the challenge of moving up with a mech. With a electro I could lean out and rip a few then go. With a mech... it's all about snap shot... not that you can't do it with a electro, it's just more fullfilling to know you snapped someone out with a mech or pump, or the shear excitement of running not knowing if you are going to make it. Overall though... I think electro's have hit their peak... where can they go from here? They already make it too easy to hit a high bps.

I do know that if the electro ever is to fall... the paint manufacturer's are going to feel the sting.

[50 cal]

I gave up on tourney ball because of all the jerks with electros. I personally never had a bad experience, just seeing the mentality of others just turned me off.
I primarily play with one of my Phantoms or the RT classic. I have a lot more fun playing scenario and rec ball than I ever had playing tournament.

[Caffiend]

Stock Class X-Ball? :D

That would take care of the paint bill problems :D

[Alpha]

Anything can happen, but do you think it will go up?

IT will peak when Rogue releases his amazing new revolutionary trigger frame. :cheers:

[VFX_Fenix]

So far as electros in their current state, there hasn't been much "new" since the inception of the Spool Valve into the electro world (Matrix) IMO. I think the Matrix that was distributed by Diablo Direct back in the day was one of the last really original guns I've seen. Now we're mostly into a sort of refinment of Spool Valved/RAM-Striker/Sear Tripper guns (the E2 is still a Sear Tripper IMO). The only place that I can see Electros evolving in the near future are with the "airless" electro guns such as the one being released by NPS later this year (supposedly).

So far as the peak of popularity, that may be the case as well. I don't know anyone that I play with that'll be heading "back to the roots" any time soon but I can appreciate the apparent increase in popularity of non-electro methods of play. There's a field a few hours from where I live that regularly hosts pump days where field entry, air (12g are still like 50 cents ea. though) and lunch are all free to anyone who comes to play and I've been interested in going to play at one of those with my PGP. (I never really went through the Pump Gun phase when I was starting out in paintball)

[SlartyBartFast]

That would take care of the paint bill problems :D

And isn't that the really big issue about paintball?

About the only thing those in support of electros, ramping, and modes have to say in favour of high tech markers that I find plausible is: "Look a Xball, it's awesome!".

But how much does a day of Xball cost in paint alone?

Paintball NEEDS a low cost highly promoted format to survive and grow. One that attracts new palyers and keeps those that don't wany to spend a fortune. Not just formats designed by and for the paint manufacturers and those with delusions of grandeur and dreams of television contracts.

[Lohman446]

I saw everything I ever wanted in a tournament from the IAO Owners Group Division. The sportmanship and fair play was tremendous, from the Shocker and Matrix teams to the Palmers and Brass Eagle teams (and every other team I saw there). The point is, it didn't matter if it were electrical or mechanical... it was the players and mentality they brought.

The only issues that existed were all out of the hands of Kevin, the refs on the field, and the players - and all fall squarely at the feet of the promotors of IAO - I think the flag pull article summed it up better than anything else. That being said, it was the most positive tournament I have ever played in thanks to Kevin, the refs, and the other players.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

I love everything about what paintball has come to, except the cheaters... and ramping... and everything else that takes no skill what so ever but that little 10 year old over there can do it.

I would never give up my electro because woodsball doesnt do it for me anymore, I just dont get that rush. paintball for me is like crack I can't get the same high from the weak stuff (atleast I think thats how crack works)

Yes I hate that I spend hours a day just sitting there walking my trigger holding my shiney new $1200 gun while some kid can just turn on ramping with his membrane on his timmy and get the same speed that Ive worked so hard for.

Yes I hate that I now have to put 3-4 balls in someone before they call themselves out instead of them just playing fair

Yes I hate getting laned, but I gotta say I love doing it.

I am one of the few ballers out there that doesnt cheat or ramp and the game is still fun for me. This game is the only thing that gets me going now, yeah spitting out 15 bps sucks for my wallet but god I love it when im doing it and I dont have regrets. the game now requires more physical skill than before, I've actually had a friend critique my game in hopes to become a better player, and its actually helped ALOT. never before would I have done this playing woodsball / scenario... cheating does suck but I dont have to do it. and there are ways of over comming it. remember that electro gun you got in your hands? they cant wipe 4 shots in their mask. and now you can put it there with that oh so hated electronic gun... hmmm yeah pardon me while I steal that crappy mcdonalds slogan, but I am lovin it.

[billmi]

Well, as previously stated, there are lots going back to pump. Many of the mfr's I have spoken with are out of stock, and/or back-ordered on their pumps. They cant keep up with demand.


While pump pundits (especially APG magazine) love to portray the industry this way, I've never seen anything ever, anywhere to indicated that pumps have grown in market share at any time, relative to semis. Yes, small specialty companies may be doing more business now than they did in 1995, but the size of the paintball playing market has grown astronomically since then, and they haven't grown that fast in comparison. Products being backordered and out of stock is not an indicator that they are extremely popular. Remember how hard X-Mags were to get - always backordered and out of stock? It wasn't because a majority of paintball players were switching to X-Mags.

[azzkikr]

I dislike paintball now very much... I'd still play if it were all mech. I only go to AO events now.

IMO... electronics + paintball = complete BS. It creates so many problems, does not make the game better (different maybe), etc.

The bastards on the field got WORSE with electros. Before it was one thing if you were a big jerk and could only pull the trigger at 5bps. Now rat bastards have an electronic device that shoots itself to be a super rat bastard. I am sick as hell of being ridiculously overshot by goddamn 13 year old POS cheating bastards who over-celebrate their wins that were won by cheating big time... thinking to ourselves that we shot that mofo 3 times that's rubbing the win in our faces telling us how much we suck... and if we had a clean game they'd get destroyed.

The incentive to move has been lost... the clean game is dead. Too many dirtbags play this game.

I can't get a clean game. WTF is the purpose of spending so much time, money, and effort on something when the game is played so dirty? Why don't I just buy a case of paint for my opponents, ask to be kicked in the nuts, and go home a "loser"?



damn it if i agree with this man right here. with the exeption of the electronics, if used to level the playing field and have fun little features. but besides that, its all true

azzkikr

[RogueFactor]

While pump pundits (especially APG magazine) love to portray the industry this way, I've never seen anything ever, anywhere to indicated that pumps have grown in market share at any time, relative to semis. Yes, small specialty companies may be doing more business now than they did in 1995, but the size of the paintball playing market has grown astronomically since then, and they haven't grown that fast in comparison. Products being backordered and out of stock is not an indicator that they are extremely popular. Remember how hard X-Mags were to get - always backordered and out of stock? It wasn't because a majority of paintball players were switching to X-Mags.

When I said the last 10 years, it didnt mean 1995 only, but within 1995-2005.

While I agree that back-orders can be 'out of stock' artifically, you are comparing 1 marker(X-Mag) model from one company to an existing sector of the paintball playing community that has its own dedicated manufacturers, its own tournaments, and its own dedicated forums. Not a fair comparison.

I respectfully disagree with popularity and demand not being an indicator. Every business will forecast sales to be able to gear up for production, no matter how rudimentary that forecasting is.

While electro pundits love to portray the pump community as dying, it doesnt seem to be. And from reading just the few that have posted to this thread, the electro-mentality is fueling the growth.

[BigEvil]

While electro pundits love to portray the pump community as dying, it doesnt seem to be. And from reading just the few that have posted to this thread, the electro-mentality is fueling the growth.


Yeah, pump is a differnet game. Many players like the low-key style. More movement, aiming, and less 'tude'.

Me and the boys have been throwing the idea of breaking out the pumps ourselves.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 'Back to the woods" movement start to appear either.

[Lohman446]

I think Slarty is more right on what is going to start to get rid of the attitude problems in paintball. A low entrance / low prize tournament series. Look at the OG at IAO - small prizes (comparatively, though again a great thanks to those that made them possible) and a lot less attitude on the field - in fact it was a great group to play with - the best tournament I have ever attended despite IAOs attempts to make it less than that (paint prices / leaky fields / unlevel and gravel playing fields). Despite this, Kevin, the players, the supporters, the refs, all made it a great event.

[RRfireblade]

Has the electro market seen its peak?

I think there are 2 different questions here.

The original question is Electros hitting a Peak and are Pump/Mechs making a come back.

In regards to Electros, IMO, not even close. Electros are going to continue to grow in popularity very a long time to come barring some 'legislation' that may have an outside effect. Electros are going to continue to get cheaper, more reliable and more previlent in the low end market until they nearly eclipse all mechincal markers across the board. What you will then be left with is a very small percentage of mechanicals, probably in all various price ranges, to satisfy the 'old skooler' , people afraid of 'electronic things' accross the board, and firearm enthusiast convert.

Are Mechs/Pumps seeing a resurgence? I'd definately say so but compared to the market as a whole , they are still falling way behind the numbers.IMO, it's not as much as the "Tourny" attitude creating that resurgence even tho it may have a small effect on some levels, as it is the overall cost of paintball.I think many players are starting to feel the finacial impact of faster markers and the costs that brings with it. Many of those who are giving pump a try are doing so to get more bang for thier paintball buck and save them money in order to allow them to still play electro on occasion.Very few pumper play pump exclusively. We've been having regular monthly pump days here in FL as well as larger regional events and the growth numbers have been quite impressive but many of these are people that still play both pump and electro so who get's credit for those numbers?

So basically, IMO...

Electros will continue to grow and eventually dominate the market and as the sport as a whole grows by leaps and bounds you are sure to see certain small percentage of that growth lean toward pump or mech play in addition to thier regular form of play.

[Deltree]

I don't feel like they've reached a peak, with the introduction of low-priced high performance guns such as the ion, wrath or promaster, I feel like they'll only continue to grow in popularity. I think the resurgance in pump guns is from players just looking to try something new.

I play both ends,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/iamphil/June%2023/IMG_2787.jpg

Its allways fun to go and play on a feild where you're totally at a firepower disadvantage and shoot people out. You get that thrill of pegging someone with that one shot and everyone else on the feild thinks you're a total badass from going out there and playing with the superguns with your measly little pump gun.

But then again most of the time I play I'll use the Angel because I don't feel like being outgunned. I guess for me using the pump is more of a macho thing than anything else, going out and playing just as well as anyone else and having all these kids with their ions watching it all in disbelief, and then thinking "wow thats cool I've gotta get one of those."

[dahoeb]

i tried out the electro seen with an impulse originally a few years back, it didn't go so well, then i got an emag. the emag still felt and shot exactly like my mech mag so i didn't see much use for it, i sold it. then i got a viking. the marker shot good and i really didn't have any complaints with it other than weight. either way, i've gone to electro and gone back to a mag about 3 times, and i think i finally realized that mags/mechs are the markers for me.

WELL ever since i got my viking, it just didn't feel the thrill of the game any more, and because of it i even noticed i was playing more lazily and just not as into the games as i once was. so half way through the day, i switched over to my ule mag and it just felt right being in my hands, a feeling of getting reaquainted with an old friend or something. thing is that i was having a lot more fun and when i was having more fun, i got more eliminations, which puts more smileys on my face! yaayy for smileys! :D :D

i have seen more players ditching imps and other electros for pumps, but for every player i see moving back to mech or pump, i see 2 little agg kiddies decked out with dye gear that is way to large on them. haha it looks sorta funny actually.
i dunno, i just can't wait to buy my mag parts from rogue/themagsmith.com, probably one of the best mag sites i've seen. i'm looking forward to re-joining the fold.

[nate2k191]

the peak of electros? my answer is that they aren't going to get that much better because shooting over 25 bps is just worthless... waste of paint, no room to hold all the paint, and 25 definately gets the job done.

They could rise in popularity with new technology, more affordibility, less weight, or higher quality.

its tough to play with guys shooting 20bps when you use a spider, tippman or pump. its hard to get your shot off in the rain of paint on your position. i felt i needed a faster marker than a standard mag, so i got an emag. i'm positive it will be the only marker i need. it can shoot slow, for woods/scenario and it can keep up/hang with the ions, most of all its AGD.

[slade]

the peak of electros? my answer is that they aren't going to get that much better because shooting over 25 bps is just worthless... waste of paint, no room to hold all the paint, and 25 definately gets the job done.
when have you ever shot 25 bps? there is NO way you could sustain that legally, and ramping is generally capped to 15 bps. even with uncapped ramping youre not all that likely to reach 25, let alone break it. a lot of marker designs cant even sustain 25 bps.

[Pyroboy597]

when have you ever shot 25 bps? there is NO way you could sustain that legally, and ramping is generally capped to 15 bps. even with uncapped ramping youre not all that likely to reach 25, let alone break it. a lot of marker designs cant even sustain 25 bps.


Not true. Ion's can sustain 25bps when the predator board is installed (with ramping) as well as shockers and nerves. Angels have demo modes that are up to 32bps and ive seen cockers shoot around 28.

[slade]

Not true. Ion's can sustain 25bps when the predator board is installed (with ramping) as well as shockers and nerves. Angels have demo modes that are up to 32bps and ive seen cockers shoot around 28.
are all these sound verified with a video, shooting paint? dont trust what the board says. i remember hearing the ION's noid cant sustain over 17 (which is why the board is capped at that) of course angels can reach 32 dry firing just as mags can top that, but that is without paint and completely illegal. he was talking about in game, and ramping, not full auto. and also, i remember seeing a warpig test that showed that halo's cant even feed up to 25 bps on gun, so even if your marker CAN shoot that on full auto (ramping is questionable) in game you most likely cant. not that youd ever need to though.

[firebanex]

I just traded off my angel ir3 for a 2nd phantom. Just cause playing with a semi was not comforatble for me, I get much more of an adrenilin rush from playing pump.

who knows? i hope more people play pump and perhaps see why some of us like it so much.

electros, I don't really mind, I think they are here to stay and will always be the "thing" to have.

[nate2k191]

firebanex- i agree "electros will be the thing to have", and i bet pump is fun, i should try.

slade- i wasnt sure on a max bps, i havent shot 25 or over, but i've just heard of mid 20's bieng shot so i figured it was a reasonable max.

[Aslan]

One field in my area separates groups into general and advanced...and any electronics on your marker (even an electronic hopper) moves you to advanced class. I dislike it because HPA/N2 tanks also move you into advanced class and my Mag hates CO2...BUT...overall I really like the idea. It allows newbs a place to play where some guy walking his 17bps shocker or Angel isn't just emptying 5 pods onto the field. It also gives old schoolers like myself a division to play in where I don't have to deal with the attitudes. If I had to put up with 13 year olds swearing at me...I'd be too tempted to pound em...then I'd go to jail. :(

The one thing, like I said, that I don't like about it is the HPA rule. It should be mech division and then electro division. The HPA rule seems to discriminate against Mags. I mean, there's no way that me going on a field with a classic automag gives me as much of an advantage as a guy with a $600 Tippmann flatline.

Anyways, I think if more fields seperated out electros into a separate class, paintball would be more enjoyable for all. Another field I go to doesn't seperate out classes...and I hate it. There's always 1-2 guys there...even on a slow day...that are shooting timmys or shockers or imps or suped up cockers and they just shoot the crap out of people. If they do get hit...they wipe or get really pissed off. Then in the staging area, they brag about how they lit up some little kid or something like that. I don't mind it too much...because I love shooting them...but it makes the day less fun for new and young players and they go home thinking they need $2000 markers to play paintball which I think is the wrong message to send. :bounce: :shooting: :bounce: :cheers:

[latches109]

I would love to show up to sc village and be able to play stock again. One of the reasons I stopped playing for years, until I found the intensity of speedball. I still have my taso stock, just waiting for that day. Not pump but stock class; and I remember the Grizwalds kicking our teenaged butts with PGPs, when we were shooting mags.

[x86assembly]

.. I realized that I simply had more fun in the sport playing rec-ball whenever I wanted like in my earlier days of paintball .....
.


I feel the same way brother.

[billmi]

When I said the last 10 years, it didnt mean 1995 only, but within 1995-2005.


So pretty much, 95 to the present, the same timespan I was talking about.



While I agree that back-orders can be 'out of stock' artifically, you are comparing 1 marker(X-Mag) model from one company to an existing sector of the paintball playing community that has its own dedicated manufacturers, its own tournaments, and its own dedicated forums. Not a fair comparison.


I think it is pretty fair. It's a product with a relatively small share of the market, quite similar.



I respectfully disagree


Wait, we're not agreeing, but we are both respecting each other. Are we really on the Internet? :-)



with popularity and demand not being an indicator. Every business will forecast sales to be able to gear up for production, no matter how rudimentary that forecasting is.

While electro pundits love to portray the pump community as dying, it doesnt seem to be. And from reading just the few that have posted to this thread, the electro-mentality is fueling the growth.

I really don't think I'd say that pumps were necessarily dying, but I'd describe them as a *very* small niche market relative to paintball as a whole, and I don't believe it's really seen that significant of a level of a growth, at least not to the point that pump/stock pundits would want us to believe that there's a "pump comeback" coming. Sure there are some pump forums online, but there's also some Rainmaker forums online, I don't see a Rainmaker comeback happening. There aren't any national, or even regional pump or stock class tournament series going, the closest their ever was were the stock class competitions in the Pan Am, and those only existed because CCI was good enough to sponsor them, providing guns, and they were run on finals day of an existing tournament series, where there were already players looking for something to do. They didn't have a strong draw of teams attending just for the stock competition (though there were some.) Personally I'd *love* to see a stock class revival, on a very big scale, I just don't think it's happening.

[RogueFactor]

So pretty much, 95 to the present, the same timespan I was talking about.
---->

Yes, small specialty companies may be doing more business now than they did in 1995...
You referred to only 1995 in the statement above. I would hope that any healthy company still around would be doing more business now than in 1995.





I think it is pretty fair. It's a product with a relatively small share of the market, quite similar.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. Any business plan that comes to a conclusion based on comparing a whole sector of a market(no matter how small or niche) with 1 product of a companies product line would be considered inadequate.




Wait, we're not agreeing, but we are both respecting each other. Are we really on the Internet? :-)
Kind of. We are on AO, a different sort of place ;)




Sure there are some pump forums online, but there's also some Rainmaker forums online, I don't see a Rainmaker comeback happening. There aren't any national, or even regional pump or stock class tournament series going, the closest their ever was were the stock class competitions in the Pan Am, and those only existed because CCI was good enough to sponsor them, providing guns, and they were run on finals day of an existing tournament series, where there were already players looking for something to do. They didn't have a strong draw of teams attending just for the stock competition (though there were some.) Personally I'd *love* to see a stock class revival, on a very big scale, I just don't think it's happening.

The horse has to lead the carriage, first comes the resurrgence, then the venues to cater to that market follow. Kinda hard for that to happen in the reverse. I dont know if it will be on a VERY big scale, but growth in that sector that was once portrayed as dying, and the reasons for it cant be ignored.

[JimmyBeam]

I don't feel like they've reached a peak, with the introduction of low-priced high performance guns such as the ion, wrath or promaster,


those low priced guns just give you the option to turn it into a 1k dollar performing gun, that you built and customized yourself. 870 spent on mine so far. its now the quietest gun ive ever shot. and the zero kick and 1800 shots per fill just add to it.

http://www.itaegis.com/gallery/data/media/18/F4.JPG

but as for hitting a peak, well i think speed and the no chopping factor are as good as its gonna get. IMO there is never a reason other than showing off to "need" a gun to shoot 20+ bps in the first place. but they need to just keep working on effeciency. who knows, maybe 2 cases per fill is in the future some where.

[slade]

slade- i wasnt sure on a max bps, i havent shot 25 or over, but i've just heard of mid 20's bieng shot so i figured it was a reasonable max.
ok. unless thats uncapped ramping or full auto thats BS, in game 12-15 bps is more realistic. and that gets the job done.

[firebanex]

There aren't any national, or even regional pump or stock class tournament series going, the closest their ever was were the stock class competitions in the Pan Am, and those only existed because CCI was good enough to sponsor them, providing guns, and they were run on finals day of an existing tournament series, where there were already players looking for something to do. They didn't have a strong draw of teams attending just for the stock competition (though there were some.) Personally I'd *love* to see a stock class revival, on a very big scale, I just don't think it's happening.

just to correct you. there is the OSC (old school challenge) series, that has tournemnts in mostly califoria and surounding states. Texas has its own pump tourny league, the south east US has just had a new tourny series begin.

so there are pump tourny series in existance, sponsered by many others besides CCI.

[Meph]

Pump revival...



Ask Mike Cassidy how his Phantom sales are :)

[Deltree]

those low priced guns just give you the option to turn it into a 1k dollar performing gun, that you built and customized yourself. 870 spent on mine so far. its now the quietest gun ive ever shot. and the zero kick and 1800 shots per fill just add to it.


I wasnt trying to imply they were worse or anything. I'm just saying that electros will continue to grow in popularity with lower and lower prices on guns that perform on par with the 1000 dollar superguns out there.

[ultralight]

[QUOTE=
Now, if I could only find a regular game where everyone was in the woods shooting Splatmasters. :D[/QUOTE]

count me and old blue in.

to this day, the most fun i have ever had playing paintball was when i played speedball with my splatmaster.

[Chris]

I posted this thread a couple of years back, http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=57154 It has been a hell of a lot more fun playing pump or limited paint games.

I don't see any chance of a decline in electro's, but I do see fields recognizing that there are people who would enjoy a game where you are not going through a case of paint in ten minutes. I think there will be more options, limited paint format, mechanical only and such, which we will be able to participate in.

[Rudz]

does any 1 kno how easy it is to put a pump kit on a mag?? ust curious as to hard this would be, rogue what are u up to?? u have been asking alot of questions lately....whatcha got cookin???? hmmmmm curious fellow aint cha

[Chris]

does any 1 kno how easy it is to put a pump kit on a mag?? ust curious as to hard this would be, rogue what are u up to?? u have been asking alot of questions lately....whatcha got cookin???? hmmmmm curious fellow aint cha

Simple, with the right parts. You just need the rail milled for the pump rod, and one of the older bodies, also milled to accept the pump rod. The rest of the conversion is easier than installing the Level X kit.

[Cow hunter]

the downfall of electros would be cool....... SP would get whats comin to them......
-playng fields would even out......
-mech/pump play would be cool because no electros means everythings more simple(no batteries/electric parts)
-everything would be more durable
-no more ramping :D :D :D


total relapse to the 90's? as if electros neer happened?

[punkncat]

I dislike paintball now very much... I'd still play if it were all mech. I only go to AO events now.

IMO... electronics + paintball = complete BS. It creates so many problems, does not make the game better (different maybe), etc.

The bastards on the field got WORSE with electros. Before it was one thing if you were a big jerk and could only pull the trigger at 5bps. Now rat bastards have an electronic device that shoots itself to be a super rat bastard. I am sick as hell of being ridiculously overshot by goddamn 13 year old POS cheating bastards who over-celebrate their wins that were won by cheating big time... thinking to ourselves that we shot that mofo 3 times that's rubbing the win in our faces telling us how much we suck... and if we had a clean game they'd get destroyed.

The incentive to move has been lost... the clean game is dead. Too many dirtbags play this game.

I can't get a clean game. WTF is the purpose of spending so much time, money, and effort on something when the game is played so dirty? Why don't I just buy a case of paint for my opponents, ask to be kicked in the nuts, and go home a "loser"?

WOW!!!

I really don't even know what to say to this....

I guess I am lucky. At the local the field owner breaks play up into categories. He runs "slow", "electro", and "open" class on all open play days. The slow includes all mechanical markers as well as electro noobs no ramping.
Electro is any marker not ramping no bunkering.
Open is anything goes with the understanding that all playing that particular game agree. It has gone a long way towards helping newer players gain the confidence they need while playing games suited to their skill or commitment level.
I certainly suggest this system for any field/format.


I play much more with mechanical markers than I do electros. Generally have most of the time I have played paintball. I enjoy the slower pace of mechanicals, and the show of skill vs. the show of budget.

[hardr0ck68]

It can, just give R+D some time...........

To design what exactly? lets say that some of these markers and loaders are really capable of 20bps; so what? What is 30 bps gonna do for you? I know the came was said (i myself was saying it years ago) about 10 to 20 bps. But really now what skill is left to learn that cant be picked up in less than a season? off handed shooting? snap shooting is only used by old timers, walking?

so lets say we keep going on the route we have been traveling, and get to a true 30, or 35bps then what? will that change anything? not really; it will only increase paint sales and cause back pain (think 20 pod harness).

I dont see anywhere else to go.

[AGD]

Paintball has only one mountain to climb

Everyone knew what the mountain peak looked like and it had to do with shooting fast. The faster you shot the faster you climbed that darn mountain, the more respect you got and the more intense the game became. For better or worse the manufacturers (me included) gave you what you wanted. Now the peak is no longer in sight because everyone is standing on it. The 10 year old kid next to you got there because his mom bought him the electro-fantastic-of-the-month and bam he is there right next to you.

Now that the exclusivity is gone, and the climb (otherwise known getting some skills) is gone everyone is debating what to do next. Where we went wrong here is there was never an independent organizing body in paintball that kept it a "competitive sport". Looking at NASCAR they are changing the rules all the time to keep the playing field level. Sure the drivers HATE not having an advantage but you know what? it keeps the fans coming. Most other sports have catagories which you can compete in, stock, pro, modified etc. In our sport if you cheat enough they change the rules to let everyone do it.

I have been saying for a while that paintball has issues and now its apparent with an industry wide 30% drop in sales. Thats not my opinion, several HUGE manufacturers have told me that directly. Guys like Warped1 will look forward to a bright future but from my side I don't see it. Airsoft is taking off behind our backs while we look for new players.

I remember when the definintion of a pro paintball player was that he used technology LOWER than the typical gun on the field (12 gram days). If I was king of this industry I would point it back in that direction and sort the players out by skill instead of technopower.

As far as a pump resurgence, I am sure Mike is busy but you don't see any new manufacturers of pumps coming out and the guy doing the gold cockers went out of business.

Good luck to all of you, I hope the game turns out to be something you can enjoy.

AGD

[grEnAlEins]

As someone who owns both electros and mechs (ans soon my cocker will be a pump), I can say that mechs are truely more fun to use. :dance: I do not ramp even when I do use my Shocker (no mommy did not buy it for me, it was 1/5 of my summer job :rolleyes: ). I hate ramping simply because it is cheating and eliminates talent from the game, but I am preaching to the chior on this I think. I do not care one way or the other about electros, just ramping. Use your SP or MacDev or D/PM# or Ego, just dont ramp. And yeah with your electro's shorter, lighter, trigger pull you will get a few more bps in semi, at least there is some element of skill. The main advantage to an electro (for a decent, responsible, non-ramping, guy such as myself) is the vision eye, it just means less ball breaks. So an an electro (mine at least) is essentially mech with a better (IMO) trigger pull and an anti chop eye. Whats wrong with that? My only problem with electros is ramping. I hate being outshot be any shmuck that can buy a Virtue [or insert other brand/model] board, it is just not fair. To sum it up, an electro is to paintball as a firearm is to the world, it is often demonized for no good reason at all. An electro cannot make itself ramp, a gun cannot cause violence. It takes a stupid person who sucks at paintball/life to cause a problem.

That is all,

:D grenaleins

EDIT: I do agree that the pros should use lesser technology and more skill, if this happens (which i bet it will not) you will see a rebirth of fun and enjoyability for paintball.

[Bonx0007]

The same thing could be said for baseball bats. At the pro level, wooden bats are the standard even though the 21st century alloys will allow players to hit further. To play pro, you either learn to play with wood, or you suck.

MLB knew that allowing anything but wooden bats just wasnt good for the sport at the pro level. Their vision for their sport surpassed the desires and needs of the manufacturers.

Embracing technology to compensate for a lack of skill isnt embracing a sport based on skill.

Well put. I have to agree with your argument. It seems that the nppl has no spine and is not interested in preserving the sport. I personally left paintball because I no longer had fun going out there and getting verbally crapped on by 13yr old kids who think that they are good because there gun could lay paint like no other. I can hold my own in verbal contest with a 13yr old but the problem comes in when I have to drive 50 miles to play paintball and then have some no talent prick talk smack. Respect is lost in this sport. I like the sport and that is why I plan on returning to rec ball mainly because it is in rec ball that you find people that play more for the love of the sport and not so much for the glamour of owning an expensive gun or having a computer that fires for them. It is too bad that there is not an unsaid respect for your competition in our sport. Paintball has changed considerably since I began playing 12 years ago. Unfortunatly it is killing itself from the inside because of how haphazardly it is run.

[nate2k191]

words of wisdom mr AGD. i too wish there was still a mountain peak in the distance. the readily available firepower has decreased the fun factor and skill for many. there are still woods courses and rec areas that have the old paintball spirit and still fun to be had.

[latches109]

Paintball has only one mountain to climb

...Good luck to all of you, I hope the game turns out to be something you can enjoy.

AGD

Our world is dynamic; should we expect anything less? I think not, and thus we find our moment of tranquility among our mess. For me it's paintball and soccer in any format, 2v2, jungleball, fifa rules, nppl rules, etc ... just as long as I got my moment.
Lower risk and diversify. If I have low funds, I play soccer.

[shartley]

Paintball has only one mountain to climb

Everyone knew what the mountain peak looked like and it had to do with shooting fast. The faster you shot the faster you climbed that darn mountain, the more respect you got and the more intense the game became. For better or worse the manufacturers (me included) gave you what you wanted. Now the peak is no longer in sight because everyone is standing on it. The 10 year old kid next to you got there because his mom bought him the electro-fantastic-of-the-month and bam he is there right next to you.

Now that the exclusivity is gone, and the climb (otherwise known getting some skills) is gone everyone is debating what to do next. Where we went wrong here is there was never an independent organizing body in paintball that kept it a "competitive sport". Looking at NASCAR they are changing the rules all the time to keep the playing field level. Sure the drivers HATE not having an advantage but you know what? it keeps the fans coming. Most other sports have catagories which you can compete in, stock, pro, modified etc. In our sport if you cheat enough they change the rules to let everyone do it.

I have been saying for a while that paintball has issues and now its apparent with an industry wide 30% drop in sales. Thats not my opinion, several HUGE manufacturers have told me that directly. Guys like Warped1 will look forward to a bright future but from my side I don't see it. Airsoft is taking off behind our backs while we look for new players.

I remember when the definintion of a pro paintball player was that he used technology LOWER than the typical gun on the field (12 gram days). If I was king of this industry I would point it back in that direction and sort the players out by skill instead of technopower.

As far as a pump resurgence, I am sure Mike is busy but you don't see any new manufacturers of pumps coming out and the guy doing the gold cockers went out of business.

Good luck to all of you, I hope the game turns out to be something you can enjoy.

AGD
Interesting opinions. Some of these have been discussed here on AO years back…. But nothing happened.

As for pumps….. don’t confuse coming out with a “new” pump, or even making pumps as an indicator of whether they are coming back. Pump sales, mostly private, have gone through the roof. And you are seeing more and more of them on the fields. It is only a matter of time before manufacturers see this (and some have already) and gear up to take advantage of it.

You see, in spite of what manufacturers have claimed over the years, paintball has become a manufacturer driven industry, not a player driven one. And don’t fall for the numbers game either… boo hoo… the industry has taken a 30% drop in sales. But if anyone thinks that means what it LOOKS like, think again. Profits are still coming in, just not in the booming numbers they used to. And that happens in all industries. Paintball is leveling out and folks act like because of that it is dyeing. Far from it folks.

As for if the game turns out to be something we can enjoy… That statement goes to prove the mentality of manufacturers. They think THEY are the game. They are NOT. They are the industry which sprang up to support the game as well as make money off of it. The GAME would still go on if the majority of manufacturers dropped off the face of the earth. Why? Because we enjoy playing it. And it is able to be played with more than blazing fast electro markers.

So, like I have said time and again, the sport is fine. The industry is adjusting but not dyeing. Players will be able to play the game they love. And there will always be a niche for every type of player, as well as someone willing to make things for that niche.

Doom and gloom? Bah, sour grapes is more like it. Paintball was like the Internet Boom. Did the Internet and internet businesses go away?

[Maghog]

Interesting opinions. Some of these have been discussed here on AO years back…. But nothing happened.

As for pumps….. don’t confuse coming out with a “new” pump, or even making pumps as an indicator of whether they are coming back. Pump sales, mostly private, have gone through the roof. And you are seeing more and more of them on the fields. It is only a matter of time before manufacturers see this (and some have already) and gear up to take advantage of it.

You see, in spite of what manufacturers have claimed over the years, paintball has become a manufacturer driven industry, not a player driven one. And don’t fall for the numbers game either… boo hoo… the industry has taken a 30% drop in sales. But if anyone thinks that means what it LOOKS like, think again. Profits are still coming in, just not in the booming numbers they used to. And that happens in all industries. Paintball is leveling out and folks act like because of that it is dyeing. Far from it folks.

As for if the game turns out to be something we can enjoy… That statement goes to prove the mentality of manufacturers. They think THEY are the game. They are NOT. They are the industry which sprang up to support the game as well as make money off of it. The GAME would still go on if the majority of manufacturers dropped off the face of the earth. Why? Because we enjoy playing it. And it is able to be played with more than blazing fast electro markers.

So, like I have said time and again, the sport is fine. The industry is adjusting but not dyeing. Players will be able to play the game they love. And there will always be a niche for every type of player, as well as someone willing to make things for that niche.

Doom and gloom? Bah, sour grapes is more like it. Paintball was like the Internet Boom. Did the Internet and internet businesses go away?

All hail shartley! :hail:
What a bunch of balogna.

On the one hand you say it's a manufacturer driven industry, but then players will be fine without manufacturers? :tard:
I'm not going to even try to understand the rest of it.

[shartley]

All hail shartley! :hail:
What a bunch of balogna.

On the one hand you say it's a manufacturer driven industry, but then players will be fine without manufacturers? :tard:
I'm not going to even try to understand the rest of it.
Next time why not try to address what I post and not just make a weak attempt to insult me personally? If it is bologna then address what I posted.

There is a difference between a manufacture “driven” industry, vs an industry that has manufacturers. The difference is whether the driving for products are truly being done by the people using the products or by what the manufacturers “sell” to those using the products. I never said players would be fine without ANY manufacturers… did I? You may want to not selective read, but actually read what I wrote.

Yeah…. :tard:

[Maghog]

Fine, then tell me how you can be audacious enough to claim to know what the manufacturers think? That's a pretty insulting thing to say to a man who sacrificed so much for the good of the game.
And then you just scoff at a 30% drop in sales as though the industry will just brush it off and keep going forward without suffering.
You say we'll all be able to play in our niche and have manufacturers there to support us, but we won't be affected if the MAJORITY of manufacturers drop off the face of the earth?
I'm still not understanding how the manufacturers are driving this industry either. Any business is always at the mercy of its customers. If we don't like a product, it doesn't sell and it gets dropped. The way you put it, manufacturers are telling us what to buy?
Forgive me if you think I'm being selective, but this is how I'm reading what you wrote.

This used to be a sport where we all supported each other, from the players, to the stores, to the manufacturers. We have more legal battles and differences of opinion than ever now, and a startling number of old school players and manufacturers have left the arena because they are sick of it. I'm not going to support doomsday talk in the least, but acting like it's just a matter of adjusting and moving on isn't the answer either.

[shartley]

Fine, then tell me how you can be audacious enough to claim to know what the manufacturers think? That's a pretty insulting thing to say to a man who sacrificed so much for the good of the game.
I posted by what I have seen over the years. It was not aimed only at Tom Kaye, who’s post I did use to preface my own opinions with. But I would not go as far as to say TK “sacrificed” anything for the good of the game. He was a business man. He saw a market and entered into it. He then, in my opinion, left paintball on the sidelines for a more lucrative military and law enforcement angle. I understand why he did this, and it was a good move to take those markets… but I don’t think the lackluster attention paid to the “game” segment was a wise move. But it was HIS business, and he was free to do anything he wanted to with it.



And then you just scoff at a 30% drop in sales as though the industry will just brush it off and keep going forward without suffering.
You say we'll all be able to play in our niche and have manufacturers there to support us, but we won't be affected if the MAJORITY of manufacturers drop off the face of the earth?
I didn’t “scoff” at a 30% drop in sales, I only put it in its proper place (IMHO). Take for example this: “Last year I made $1,000,000 in profits. This year I saw a 30% drop in profits. It was such a BAD year and I may have to close my doors.” This is how I see much of the numbers games being played and how they want the public to believe things are “so bad”. Let’s ignore the fact that with a 30% drop in profits or even sales, the numbers brought in would still be $700,000.

As long as you are making more than you are spending, it is still good. The rate of growth may not be what you “like”, but I kind of find it insulting to cry about a 30% drop in sales when that drop was coming from an all time high in sales. Now if a business was getting a 30% drop in sales every year for many years running, THAT would be something to worry about.


I'm still not understanding how the manufacturers are driving this industry either. Any business is always at the mercy of its customers. If we don't like a product, it doesn't sell and it gets dropped. The way you put it, manufacturers are telling us what to buy?
I do think in many cases the manufacturers are telling customers what to buy. They have made the market and direct it, not the other way around. If it was not this way, they would not have focused on tournament play (which has always been the smallest portion of the players) but instead made products that the average player wanted, could afford, and fit better with their playing style. This is not to say any marker can not be used for any style of play (because they can) but it is clear to anyone who was watching that the industry was trying to direct the entire game into a style that they could (in their opinions) make more money off of.

We now see companies changing directions and heading back into the largest segments of players… which is good. Even with what I consider “manufacturer lead” production and sales we have seen many changes over the years. Things must progress and it is natural. And not every year will show the same rates of sales, nor even the same rate of growth of sales. EVERY business has this, and every industry does as well.


Forgive me if you think I'm being selective, but this is how I'm reading what you wrote.

This used to be a sport where we all supported each other, from the players, to the stores, to the manufacturers. We have more legal battles and differences of opinion than ever now, and a startling number of old school players and manufacturers have left the arena because they are sick of it. I'm not going to support doomsday talk in the least, but acting like it's just a matter of adjusting and moving on isn't the answer either.
And I disagree. I think it is indeed a matter of adjusting and moving on. Why should the paintball industry be any different than any other? And it baffles me when players (and even businesses) seem to think paintball (the industry) should live in its own little alternate universe not ruled by laws, standard business practices, and even growth and plateau trends. I would also argue that while some players and manufacturers are leaving the arena because they are sick of things, that many manufacturers are leaving because they simply can’t compete any longer.

As for paintball being a sport where everyone used to support each other… I am sure it may have looked that way from the outside, but I can assure you that paintball was never the utopia folks seem to what to believe it was. People sued others. Businesses were taken over or forced out of business. Players complained about markers, prices, and fields. Overshooting and obnoxious behavior was seen on fields. Every issue we see today was there, only on a smaller scale.

And if a player leaves the sport they love because of what businesses are doing, I would argue that they didn’t love the “game” as much as they claimed they did. There should be few situations where what a manufacturer does should force a player to quit the game. I think players quit the game because of other players, or changes in their lives. But far too often I see what manufacturers do and what players do linked together when they simply should not be, because they are not.

The same is true if a player stopped playing the game because of what they read on an internet forum, or how people online treat them. If they quit for that reason they didn’t truly love the game in the first place. They simply wanted to be “liked” by some group, and they could have easily chosen any online community for that purpose.

[Maghog]

Unbelievable. I'm stupefied by your ability to make statements and then turn around and make them mean something else. Discussing this with you is pointless.

[shartley]

Unbelievable. I'm stupefied by your ability to make statements and then turn around and make them mean something else. Discussing this with you is pointless.
I made no statements which I then turned around and made them mean something else. It is clear that you are not reading what I wrote, but only want to see what you want to see. In that case, you are correct, discussion with you is pointless. And I am sorry for that.

[misenhei]

Unbelievable. I'm stupefied by your ability to make statements and then turn around and make them mean something else. Discussing this with you is pointless.

As I read it, *you* are the one taking quotes out of context, not Shartley. It all boils down to business. TK knows this, Shartley knows this, and I'm sure you do. Even with/if manufacturers are leading the sport in the direction it's taking, as long as there are people willing to play pump, there will be companies willing to support the <strike>players</strike> market. It all comes down to the bottom line.

And as for the "plateau" or "decline," numbers mean nothing without context. Last report I saw, golf is losing 3 MILLION players per year. Sounds devistating. It would be, too, if it weren't that the sport's still growing.

[TheTramp]

Unbelievable. I'm stupefied by your ability to make statements and then turn around and make them mean something else. Discussing this with you is pointless.

You've been around for a long time. I'd have thought that you'd have remembered this. ;)

[Maghog]

Well for what it's worth, I think the electro was a great step for paintball, even though I stuck with my mechanical Mags, I loved the challenge of going against higher firepower. But then part of paintball died when manufacturers started getting greedy and the lawsuits began. It hasn't really been the same since then.
I don't think there's really going to be a huge movement back to pump and stock play. It'll be moderate at best. The thirty percent drop we're seeing is also contributed to by a flooded market, with equipment being sold privately more than through business avenues.

Technology wise, the electro appears to be near its peak, but there's always a surprise waiting around the corner. Can you imagine 100 bps? It seems far fetched but with superior firepower being seen as a priority, multi barreled systems with 5000 round back pack feeders are certainly a possibility as long the player driven portion of the industry wants to see it.
If we've learned anything by observing this business, it's that companies who resort to a complacent frame of thinking don't get very far. Those that push the envelope aren't always rewarded either though, as in AGD and Odyssey. It's a tricky business, and as much as manufacturers might want to tell us what to buy, having a successful product has proved to be a fickle thing.
We haven't seen the last of the innovative products yet though

[phantomhitman]

Nope, not at all. Stop all of your blasphemy and go make some aftermarket matrix products. Send me a pm when you are done.

[Recon by Fire]

Paintball has only one mountain to climb


Ever notice when climbing a mountain, the peak as you perceive it turns out to be merely a ledge or plateau and the next peak is the same, and so on until you actually achieve the pinnacle. Perhaps paintball has just reached it's first plateau.

I don't think we have seen the limit of electro markers just yet. I do not really care for substitution of programming over skill in general. Backing up along our mountain pathway towards mechs and pump may not be the future of paintball but it somehow just feels right.

[Lohman446]

I remember when the definintion of a pro paintball player was that he used technology LOWER than the typical gun on the field (12 gram days). If I was king of this industry I would point it back in that direction and sort the players out by skill instead of technopower.

AGD

When you first said this I had a problem with this, and then I thought about it. Now understand the competetive skeet shooters where I shoot go to the competition with far better equipment than I own. However, when I show up to "rec-days" to just shoot a round or two, the person shooting in front of me, or behind me, when they are the best at the club, are seldom useing there best equipment. Not to say there less competetive equipment is any less nice.

I'm out there blasting holes in the sky with a twelve gauge, and there using some obscure 28 gauge double barrel thing that cost them $10,000...

There still better than me...

[hitech]

So, anyone remember what it was the caused the change from 12 grams to "CA" in tournaments? :wow:

BTW, that was the purpose of the device, at least according to the marketing reps...

[Baby Huey]

I only see one problem with paintball, I can't get a red gripper for my RPG Paradigm! Come on Rogue your Killin me.

Just kidding. I play both sides of PB as well (speedball with shockers and scenerio w/mag) and '06 will be the first time that I have more plans with my scenerio team than my tourny team. I just enjoy the time with my friends more when we are playing for 26 hours. Why would a gun company that serves the scenerio community not have a division that does big games? I think that is where the people are going. Have a good New Year and God Bless.

[evilhomer]

I moved to pump about 3 years ago from playing with my mech Mag. I wanted to try a different style of play. Pump was awesome and I got hooked on it. I became pretty damn good at it. Last summer I decided I wanted to try electro as well. I bought a DM4 and it's extremely fun. I found that there is a ton of skill involved in electro.

I honestly didn't find that my pump skills could be transferred over to my semi game. The snapping, moving, running, and shooting(obviously) is completely different. I think a lot of people are switching from pump to mech to electro back and forth because they want constant competition.

I'm kind of sick hearing people bash on semis and electros. I played pump 3 years straight, sometimes 3 times a week against semis, pumps, noobs, tourney players, even regional teams (who played with semis), so I have tons of experience pumping. Semi play requires it's own distinct skills. Have any of you mech/pumpers tried running and gunning with an electro? Holding a steady lane? Snapping with a massive hopper on top? Podding? Staying aware of all bunkers while shooting a lane or keeping someone in? It's not as easy as it looks. Trust me.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing with my Phantom. In fact I play with it every weekend against tourney players. I just thought I'd vent.

[Yamz]

Electros have taken the fun... it was cool once upon a time, but not anymore. The only question is with the integrity gone from the tourny scene if WE found a way to make a league that does have limits and diffrent classes who would comprise the WE. I for one am in.

AO used to have revolutions pop up everyday. now is the time to really do one. Lets use our collective minds to make it better.

[Troen]

Anything can happen, but do you think it will go up?
if you come out with a sweet gun, it will :D

[rabidchihauhau]

Many months later now since this thread was first created, and responded to...do we see the electro reaching its peak?

there is no 'peak' for ROF. we have a limiting factory from delivery systems, but that's overshadowed I think by limitations of the ball.

here's one of the issues tom was referring to in a round-about way: the 'leagues' have allowed technology to rule. if we have reached a board/cycle limit, someone will intro a duel barrel system and after a few threats and bribes, it will be allowed in competition play - and then we can all start all over again.

[RogueFactor]

there is no 'peak' for ROF. we have a limiting factory from delivery systems, but that's overshadowed I think by limitations of the ball.

here's one of the issues tom was referring to in a round-about way: the 'leagues' have allowed technology to rule. if we have reached a board/cycle limit, someone will intro a duel barrel system and after a few threats and bribes, it will be allowed in competition play - and then we can all start all over again.

Artificial ROF is overrated.

I think Tom said it best with this quote...




Now that the exclusivity is gone, and the climb (otherwise known getting some skills) is gone everyone is debating what to do next.

Looking at NASCAR they are changing the rules all the time to keep the playing field level. Sure the drivers HATE not having an advantage but you know what? it keeps the fans coming. Most other sports have catagories which you can compete in, stock, pro, modified etc. In our sport if you cheat enough they change the rules to let everyone do it.

AGD

[Lohman446]

Artificial ROF is overrated.

I think Tom said it best with this quote...


Was the RT not artificial rate of fire? Using technology to gain BPS?

[Jaan]

There comes a point in all technology where it's "pretty darn good" and everyone can live with it. After that point you get some ordinary refinements but until the next major leap in innovation occurs it tends to say the same. Look at something like the AK-47 ... even in a market as "competitive" as warfare, after almost 60 years that piece of technology still delivers everything you need in an assault weapon.

What can an electro give you that you "need"? It seems like the people who want high rates of fire already have it, and the guns are pretty reliable to boot.

What I'm hoping will happen is that the average rec ball player will realize that they play for *fun*, and that having a good time will be the next driving force in paintball. You're already seeing this with people going back to the woods and resurrecting their old pump guns.

[slade]

Was the RT not artificial rate of fire? Using technology to gain BPS?
yes. but its a mag, so its okay.

:ninja:

[Lohman446]

Was the RT not artificial rate of fire? Using technology to gain BPS?


Dang... forgot that rule

[RogueFactor]

Was the RT not artificial rate of fire? Using technology to gain BPS?

Anything that shoots for the user is artificial.

Obviously tournaments promoters thought the RT artifical. They banned the use of it. It is unfortunate that the side effect of the RT is bounce/runaway/full-auto. Its original intention was merely faster recharge rates.

As Tom stated, NASCAR works hard to keep the playing field level. This is true of nearly every major sport.

All variables in a sport should be minimized as much as possible to be constants, except one...skill. And in a shooting sport, such as paintball, its skill that should be doing the shooting, not technology.:D

[hitech]

Was the RT not artificial rate of fire? Using technology to gain BPS?
I think it is a gray area that is debatable. I certainly thought it was at first. I thought it was a horrible development. However, that was a knee-jerk reaction.

Let look at what it actually does. First, for the sake of argument, let's exclude "run-away". The marker is simply preparing itself for the next firing cycle as fast as possible. It is in no way firing the marker for you.

You could argue that is not the way it is used. I can't really comment on how it is used in the real world. However, I will say that "run-away" of any type never should have been allowed. That does artificially increase BPS. Without that, it is simply the marker readying itself for the next shot as quick as possible. :D

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

What is artificial BPS? The use of technology to gain BPS? Or some more specific explanation.

Don't discount what the RT was and did. It clearly was "hyped" and proven, under proper operating circumstances (no run away) to increase BPS by increasing trigger return force. Artificial BPS... using technology to gain BPS.

[grEnAlEins]

In a game based on skill, where the user pulls every shot, there is no such thing as artifical bps.

Balls per second(the amount of balls that come out of the marker), can only be had by the user pulling the trigger. In a sport/game based on shooting, there is nothing artifical about that. :D
:clap: :headbang: Well put sir! I agree whole-heartedly.

As far as has the electro seen its peak... kinda :p I believe that we are at a point where we really do not need anything more. My electros are light, can out cycle my fingers, etc.

Has ROF seen a peak, I doubt it. You will always have some yahoo who wants to shoot 9 billion BPS at kids with rentals (like last time I played when some gentleman was nice enough to take his brand new Ego and ramp his pants off playing against a bunch of first timers with 98C's). He won the game... :rolleyes:. To satisfy this type of person, who will spend obscene amounts of money on the latest greatest thing despite having no need, the industry will always develop technologies. I think that we will soon see a new marker type (eg not a poppet or spooler, something totally new) and new loaders and propellants to match it. It might be awhile down the line, but "I hear the train a'commin', It's just around the bend."

Just my thoughts, and I am just some college punk, so I could be very wrong indeed :D

[Lohman446]

In a game based on skill, where the user pulls every shot, there is no such thing as artifical bps.

Balls per second(the amount of balls that come out of the marker), can only be had by the user pulling the trigger. In a sport/game based on shooting, there is nothing artifical about that. :D

I still hold it valid, that the RT did seek to increase BPS through technology

[RogueFactor]

I still hold it valid, that the RT did seek to increase BPS through technology

ROF = What the Player is capable of. BPS - What the marker is capable of. Youve attempted to change the premise from ROF to BPS. Again, there is no such thing as artifical BPS.

More importantly, the point is, technology should never replace the main skill of a sport.

As long as the player is actually pulling the trigger, what the RT sought to do is irrelevant.

[Lohman446]

. Again, there is no such thing as artifical BPS..

Typos make for a circular argument :D

[slade]

ROF = What the Player is capable of. BPS - What the marker is capable of. Youve attempted to change the premise from ROF to BPS. Again, there is no such thing as artifical BPS.
don't try to come up with your own definitions.

ROF is rate of fire.

BPS is balls per second.

for all practital purposes, they are the same thing in paintball. the number of balls coming out of the barrel per time period.

[Lohman446]

The premise of the argument is not max ROF - its the extra trigger return force that increased the ability to achieve a high ROF. Its not the difference from the classics 13 possible without shootdown to the 32 of the RT. Its the 6-8 possible from the classic to the 12-15 from the RT.

[iambored]

I am a little late but it's true pump and woods are coming back full force because of all them degenerate kiddies wiping and continuing and no one like it! I got a full hopper on me by some punk cause I didn't get off the field and out of his way and then he shot the ref for trying to get me off the field without getting shot anymore (Now I don't go to big bethel park) And the true art in the sport was aim! the equation of the present is this junk 1 case = 1 out

I blame the pros if they didn't cheat their followers wouldn't either :mad:

[RogueFactor]

The premise of the argument is not max ROF - its the extra trigger return force that increased the ability to achieve a high ROF. Its not the difference from the classics 13 possible without shootdown to the 32 of the RT. Its the 6-8 possible from the classic to the 12-15 from the RT.

Thats true of all faster recharing regulators.Put a crappy reg on any marker, and youll lower the BPS the marker is capable of.

Hitech hit it on the head--->


However, I will say that "run-away" of any type never should have been allowed. That does artificially increase BPS. Without that, it is simply the marker readying itself for the next shot as quick as possible. :D:cheers:

[Lohman446]

Thats true of all faster recharing regulators.Put a crappy reg on any marker, and youll lower the BPS the marker is capable of.

Are you making an attempt to argue against the RT effect on the trigger return or just sideline the argument?

[RogueFactor]

Are you making an attempt to argue against the RT effect on the trigger return or just sideline the argument?

Neither.

All frames have some sort of 'trigger return'. Whether that be springs connected to the sear or trigger itself, magnets in the trigger , a return spring in the switch, they all aid in the return of the trigger. Also, lighter triggers through the use of electronic switches, or trigger kits also allow for user-based ROF increases.

But all of those have nothing to do with artifical ROF. When a computer fires a marker for you, thats artificial. If technology causes bounce/full-auto/runaway, thats artificial. Anything that causes the marker to 'fire' without a pull from the user, is artificial. The trigger return does not do this.

Your argument of trigger return has nothing to do with the actual discharge part of the firing sequence in a 1-pull, 1-shot world. The trigger return part of the sequence has only to do with the resetting the systems to allow another discharge, as Hitech pointed out.

Youd like to believe that this attempts to argue against the RT effect, or sidelines the argument. It does neither. What it does do is make the 'RT Effect" argument moot, as it just doesnt apply here. So, youve sidelined yourself by trying to argue a non-sequitur:D

[Arstron]

Youd like to believe that this attempts to argue against the RT effect, or sidelines the argument. It does neither. What it does do is make the 'RT Effect" argument moot, as it just doesnt apply here. So, youve sidelined yourself by trying to argue a non-sequitur:D

Wasn’t the original question about electronic guns? :dance:

The only thing that I don’t understand, what makes a $1000+ marker any better then a cheaper marker that does the exact same thing? Weight, pivot point of the trigger, how the trigger works, firing modes, and board adjustability? Look at the fusion for example. Its MAP is at $349 I believe I read, it comes stock with break beam eyes, an optical trigger sensor, and a board that is capable of semi or psp ramping with a limit of 15 or 20 bps. It also weights in at 2lbs 6 or 7 ounces (cant remember which) with barrel, battery, reg, and asa pretty much everything but a tank and a hopper. All this gun needs is a new board with more adjustability (dwell, debounce, and modes although I haven’t needed any of that). After that, I really don't see a $600+ difference between it and a $1000+ marker, not counting resale or collectors value.

To sum up everything I just said, I don’t see any improvements that really is needed for an electronic marker. Efficiency would be the only area I could think of, which would also reduce the weight (smaller tanks). The weight of the markers them selves isn't a problem now, if a few ounces makes that big of a difference then you are a serious player, and if you are a serious player you should be in better shape so that it doesn’t matter. :cheers:

[Lohman446]

Yes.:cheers:

That never stops someone from bringing up the negative aspects of a mag to somehow tie it into the original topic in an attempt to label mag shooters hypocritical(see post #121) :ninja:


The problem I have is this. Mag owners whining about the arms race that is BPS. Look at TKs post - he was giving what people wanted, he was participating in that arms race. Mags used technology to increase BPS. I just questioned what "artificial BPS" was. I'm dismayed that the argument centers only on technology AGD did not use. Mag owners are hypocritical. "Mags the thing you never have to tune" + LX = oh, occassional tuning is ok. THe whole BPS argument, as long as its a mag doing it its great...

[RogueFactor]

The problem I have is this. Mag owners whining about the arms race that is BPS. Look at TKs post - he was giving what people wanted, he was participating in that arms race. Mags used technology to increase BPS. I just questioned what "artificial BPS" was. I'm dismayed that the argument centers only on technology AGD did not use. Mag owners are hypocritical. "Mags the thing you never have to tune" + LX = oh, occassional tuning is ok. THe whole BPS argument, as long as its a mag doing it its great...

This thread wasnt started with any particular individual make of marker in mind.Or an arms race. Merely the questions "have electros seen their peak?".

Simply put, we started with pumps. Those pumps lasted for X years, when semi's were introduced. Semi's life cycle lasted X years, when electros were introduced. No problems up to this point, because the player was still required to pull the trigger for every shot, so skill was still the major variable.

The quest for equipment that allowed the player to maximize their skill was never an issue up to this point. Now that the equipment is capable of shooting beyond the individual users skills, the equipment is created to shoot FOR the player, diminishing one of the major skills of the game.

With the advent of each progression(pump to semi, semi to electro), the industry has added to their player base. While some have left with each progression, no stage has seen quite the flight that the 'electro-to-ramping electro' stage is currently seeing.

I just recently read a thread, by you, stating how youve grown to dislike what paintball has become. We may disagree on how it became what it is, but I think we both agree its different, and undesirable.

The 'mag owners are hypocritical" argument is one for another thread, it just doesnt apply to this one. Bounce, runaway, full-auto, ramp arent ok whether its with a mag or not. :D

[Lohman446]

Artificial ROF is overrated.

I think Tom said it best with this quote...


THis is after Rabidchihahua made a statement directly in response to the threads question. You're the one who decided to make it about "artificial ROF" whatever that is

[slade]

All frames have some sort of 'trigger return'. Whether that be springs connected to the sear or trigger itself, magnets in the trigger , a return spring in the switch, they all aid in the return of the trigger. Also, lighter triggers through the use of electronic switches, or trigger kits also allow for user-based ROF increases.
come on Rogue, i expect better of you.

the difference lies in the fact that everything you mentioned - springs, magnets, microswitch, whatever, have the same return and actuation forces.

an RT mag, however, has a greater return force than actuation force, hence, the RT effect.

suppose i modified my cyborg so instead of having two opposing magnets, as it does now, it had one magnet, and one electromagnet. the electromagnet would be activated for a few milliseconds after the microswitch is closed. would you consider that legal? its like an electronic RT.

[hitech]

I think we have two completely different "arguments" happening here.

First is "technology being used to increase rate of fire". EVERY manufacture has done that, period. It has been done ever with every "marker" since the first one. Pumps instead of bolt action, gravity feed instead of rock and cock, auto trigger, semi auto. Then there have been improvements to existing items. Smoother pumps, lighter triggers, shorter trigger pulls, double+ finger triggers. In all of these things manufactures attempted to increase YOUR max trigger pulls. The RT fits this category as long as it is not bouncing or in run-away.

Then there is the other argument, where the marker is firing one or more shots without a trigger pull. Burst modes, ramping, full auto and the RT when it's bouncing or in run-away fit in this category.

The bottom line is that 'mags have certainly contributed to the arms race. How much so is up for debate.

(Personally, I've always thought that the ease of getting an RT to bounce should have been fixed. However, since the ease of bouncing electros quickly surpassed the RT no one bothered...)

And loosing the non-tuning aspect of a 'mag via the level 10 was unfortunate. But you can make that choice for yourself. You can successfully do electronic, eyes and level 7. Personally, I think the positive way out weighted the negative. But it is still a negative.

:cheers:

[slade]

Springs and magnets do not have equal actuation and return forces. The load of a spring and its force change based on the springs characteristics(spring torsion, length, coils, wire material, shape of that material(square, round),shape of the spring, etc). When a spring is compressed, it has different force characteristics than when its not compressed and all throughout the free length.

The force of magnets differ depending on the point of magnetic radiation, this directional energy can be radial, directional in a number of variations, depending on how the material has been magnetized. The force required to separate magnets differs from the force of attraction, and is affected by distance. The closer magnets get to each other, the greater the force exponentitally.
yes, and you missed the point completely. suppose you measure the rotation of the trigger as it pivots. At any theta value, the force the spring or magnet is exerting on the trigger will be the same, regardless if the trigger is being pulled or released.

however, with an RT mag, the force for any given theta value will be greater during the trigger return than during the pull. hence, the RT effect.

[zaqwert6]

The RT aids the shooter in reaching a ROF he could not otherwise achieve without the RT effect regardless of finger speed or shooting ability.... that's the simple fact.

Arguing over the detailed specifics of how/why it does that is nothing more than semantics , get over it.



As for the other ,


Has the electro seen its peak?

No , the electro will continue to increase in poplarity and conitnue to dominate the vast majority of the game in every possible aspect , form and style till something 'better' comes along.

At some time probably in the not to distant future (5-10years?) , probably for safety reasons , you won't even be able to buy a Mech gun in walmart.

[kruger]

Well, I dont see necessarily safey issues as much as marketing. Lets take the Walmart thing. Little johnny wants a paintball gun. Mommy says no. Dad looks at what is at Walmart. Sees a paintball gun that has total parental control, ie, bps, velocity. All controled by a little interface thru the computer. Dad can tell his son's marker what it can and cant do. Mommy is happy and lets little johnny have his paintball gun. Cuz dad is in control. And, she can blame him when the neighbors cat is blue and yellow. Kinda simplistic, but you get my drift. Electronics are cheap nowadays.

[RoadDawg]

I still hold it valid, that the RT did seek to increase BPS through technology

So did the invention of a semi auto marker. Same with lighter pump arms for pumps. They "artificially" enhance BPS but it still takes the end user to utilize these items. Much like a lighter baseball bat increases bat speed. If the batter is a wimp the bat speed is going to be poor. Plus if the batter can't pick up the rotation of the ball, no matter the speed of the bat, he'll still miss the ball.

[Lohman446]

So did the invention of a semi auto marker. Same with lighter pump arms for pumps. They "artificially" enhance BPS but it still takes the end user to utilize these items. Much like a lighter baseball bat increases bat speed. If the batter is a wimp the bat speed is going to be poor. Plus if the batter can't pick up the rotation of the ball, no matter the speed of the bat, he'll still miss the ball.


The reason I have a problem with thsi is the term artificial BPS - which has become so MAgcentric as defined by Rogue to be ludicrous. No debate on what the RT did, or that it was legal set up right. My problem is lets whine about "artificial BPS" and then when called on it carefully exclude the mag in its "definition" The definition I disagree with.

[Lohman446]

Very true.

What Lohman wants to do is turn this into a "Mag vs. the world" thread...as he always tries to do.

Except, this thread is about electros, and evolved into their artifical ROF, as defined as a marker shooting themselves without the 1-pull 1-shot of its user. This is most predominantly accomplished by electro ramping boards, or bounce amongst other methods(pneumatics, magnetics, etc). Mags included, as they can bounce.

But once someone concurs that mags can bounce, but says "a mag set-up without bounce", he changes the argument to say "but the trigger return!!!!". Any reasonably experienced individual knows that the trigger return doesnt fire a marker. And so his argument becomes moot.

There you have it, in a nutshell


I would argue that I just called you out on your offhand complaint of "artificial BPS" Sorry if we dont all sit around, sing kumbaya and praise the mag. We're smart enough to have discussion

[cyrus-the-virus]

Electros have certainly have reached a plateau.

One reason for more pump sales for manufactures is the simple fact that there are more players out there, and with more players staying in the game/sport longer, you'll find them wanting a different thrill from their game. Thus, exploring the "roots" of the game with stock and pump markers.

My first 10 man tournament (ahem...way back in the day) it was very common to see a mix of pump and semi's on the field......we had one automag on the team and thought that guy was invincible.

It's good news that every aspect of the game grows, from stock to pump to semi, tournament, scenario, etc.

Now, how about more affordable paint????

Paint IS affordable. Back in the day paint was 0.50 PER BALL (but I'm sure you already know that)

now you can pick up 1000 for 15$

[zaqwert6]

(Without bounce/full-auto) So does better loaders, lighter trigger pulls, gun mounted and tank mounted regulators, the list goes on....



Back on topic! :headbang: Thanks.

What safety issues do you see with mech markers?


First Part :

1) Actually they do not. Those things only allow persons natural ability to go uninhibited or unrestrained to a greater degree. There is a difference. It's like running on land or running in water. Land doesn't 'aid' your running in anyway , it mearly has less resistance to your natural speed and strength such as a lighter trigger pull versus a heavier mech.

That RT takes the persons ability to beyond his natural means. I realize this is somewhat of a debate going on here ;) BUT let's be honest .......no one taking advantage of an RT is 'pulling' and 'releasing' the trigger of thier own conscience intent shot by shot. We all know that when "Sweetspotting" an RT you are are doing nothing more than finding the point where the correct amount of pressure on the trigger allows it to fire mostly of it's own accord in a continual manner.

Part 2 :

Thanks , Topics around here change faster than a Proballer can change cheat modes during a break out. :D

I can't go into detail specifically other than to say it's nothing to do with mechinal inherintly having safety 'issues'. It's a different angle.

[REDRT]

In the AGD camp electro has reached its peak and fell of the other side. :rolleyes:

[nippinout]

No one can pull a trigger 20bps. I doubt many can even do 16bps.

Noise is not a trigger pull.

[Army]

First Part :
That RT takes the persons ability to beyond his natural means. I realize this is somewhat of a debate going on here ;) BUT let's be honest .......no one taking advantage of an RT is 'pulling' and 'releasing' the trigger of thier own conscience intent shot by shot. We all know that when "Sweetspotting" an RT you are are doing nothing more than finding the point where the correct amount of pressure on the trigger allows it to fire mostly of it's own accord in a continual manner.


"Sweetspotting" is introducing an artificial trigger pull; you finger substituting for a spring/solenoid. Which has nothing to do with the RT design itself.

The RT design was developed to take advantage of the higher pressure, more efficient recharge rates of nitrogen. That it does, recharging faster than any other valve in the industry. All that means, is that it readies itself for another single shot from a single pull of the trigger. Electro's ramp regardless of trigger pull repetitions, resulting in the NON-HUMAN influence of particular design to fire the marker for you....one pull---three or more shots.

The RT CANNOT fire more than one time by itself. One pull---one shot... unless something OUTSIDE the engineered design manipulates the trigger, ie; bouncing off your finger. Finger bouncing was not envisoned nor planned for, thus is a moot point.

Ramping on the other hand, was purposely envisioned, designed, and planned for.

[REDRT]

What does the RT have to do with the topic? Your not going to see an RT at the world cup or a mag period for that matter. So has electro markers in general seen its peak?

[miv22]

The answer to that question comes down to technology. Right now, in the short run, yes, electronic guns have reached A peak. But only in the very short run, and not THE peak. There is no such thing. Right now, electronic guns are almost perfectly suited to the game they are used for, that is, speedball. They can shoot faster than any human could possibly shoot unassisted, and the gun parts can now keep up with the electronics, for the most part. But to say that electros have reached a pinnacle is just like saying that computers have reached a peak. Processors now have millions upon millions of circuits on them, whereas only ten years ago they had just thousands. Ten years ago, however, engineers and scientists didn't even dream of having millions upon millions of circuits on one processor. My point is this: today we have no way of knowing what will come in the future, only that something will come. Sure you can guess, but those are just that, guesses. Its like the old addage, "necessity is the mother of invention". When someone with the capital and knowledge wants a new feature, they will create it. What that will be, no one currently knows.

There will always be another step to take. When enough people get bored with speedball, scenario, woodsball, and every other game imaginable right now, a new game will surface. And with that new game will come new demands for markers. Entrepreneurs will see this, and capitalize on it. The new demands probably won't call for faster guns, but something entirely different and as of now unforseen. As I read the posts in this thread, I notice most people getting stuck on rate of fire. But remember, there is currently much more to electronic guns than simply rate of fire, not to mention what will be included in the future.

So Rogue, and everyone else out there wondering if electronic guns have peaked, don't lose faith. New technology will save the day, and always will. We just don't know in what way yet, thats all.

[dahoeb]

i certainly do think electros are at the top of their little mountain.

what more are they going to do that they don't do already?

virtually no recoil=check
good efficiency(in some cases, great efficiency)= check
great consistency=check
more speed than ANYONE should need= check
relatively easy maintanence= check
no more chopping= check

i just don't see where else there is for the marker itself to go.
if we get another gas source, like propane, that'll shoot up efficiency, but that'll quickly plateau out as well.
for accuracy/consistency, that one is going to be more up to paint manufacturers to make a more perfectly and consistently sized paintball, nothing to do with the marker.

i think there may be a cool new feature or innovation here or there, but nothing to really improve the firing of the marker significally.

theres really only so many ways you can fire a paintball.

[SlartyBartFast]

The only thing that I don’t understand, what makes a $1000+ marker any better then a cheaper marker that does the exact same thing?

That's easy. Things that matter:
- design
- materials
- manufacturing

Things that don't matter:
- advertising/hype
- slavish following of brands
- snobbish follwoing of price points

Not exhaustive lists, but IMO the most important points. Now if you eliminate the subjective of exterior design and the costs that milling and annodizing entail, the difference between a cheap marker and a 1000$+ one shrinks significantly.

But I've said this a lot before: Paintballers are mostly identical to ricers. More in awe of a shiney body kit than serious muscle or high revving speed.

[SlartyBartFast]

there is no 'peak' for ROF.

Okay, that's just stupid. There IS a ROF peak beyond which it is impossible to go:
A perfect string of paintballs each just touching, all travelling at 300fps.

That's 300fps/((0.68in/ball)/(12in/ft))=(300ft/s)/(.05667ft/ball)= 5294.117647 BPS.


The answer to that question comes down to technology. Right now, in the short run, yes, electronic guns have reached A peak. But only in the very short run, and not THE peak. There is no such thing.

A similarily silly statement. Currently, physics puts the peak velocity at light speed. So, some astronomical BPS at lightspeed would be the theoretical limit of all paintball development. Plug in the speed of light into the formula above if you absolutely need to know...

All that further limited by the physical properties of paintballs and the targets they are shot at. :D

Silliness aside, the real question isn't what can the technology perform. Nor vapid arguments about what a theoretical human is actually capable of pulling a trigger. It's what will the sport tolerate?

In car racing, the allowable technology is limited to varying degrees. From everyone in the same vehicle, to limited to some equipment, to limited to some specs, to fully open tenological competition.

Wooden baseball bats are far from the "technological peak", but as far as sanctioned tournament play, the peak has been reached.

In shooting sports, trigger weight and other factors are governed to challenge the gun handling, ROF, as well as the target shooting aspects of the competition. Whether the IPSC, 1000 yard target, or Olympic target shooting.

Purely physical sports limit the peak of performance too. Thus the existence of WADA.

How much change will the sport of paintball go through at competitive levels before players have had enough? Don't know. The industry has a lot of maturing to do. That goes for the industry that is more interested in sales and marketing than sporting competition as well as the players who slavishly follow the "pros" and happily subsidise upper levels of tournaments and the direction of the industry through elevated entrance fees and low returns.

Here's another way to look at technology, advancements, changes, and peaks with regards equipment and sports.

If the rules are widened to allow something, it's change. Not progress, not advancement, not improvement, change.

As soon as someone has to push the envelope of the rules or outright break them to gain advantage, it's a change to the game. The game is simply different than it was before. Not "better" unless subjectively you agree with the change..

12g to "constant air" > Change. First ruled against, then circumvented by the AGD 6pak. Then abolished until the revival of Stock Class.
Force feed hoppers > Change. First ruled against, then circumvented by the AGD Warp Feed. Then abolished.
Allowing ramping/modes > Change. Couldn't enforce the rules in place so bent to the will of the cheaters.
And others.

Just as aluminum baseball bats wouldn't make baseball "better". It would just make it different. Just as the steroid era is not "better" but now viewed as different as stats get little disclaimers added...

[phizz]

sorry no technical stuff in this post but I have to say I'm basically coming from the other side of the fence. I have played pump and mechanical for years probably about 15, and now I'm switching over to electro. So don't forget the other side of the fence.

[miv22]

i just don't see where else there is for the marker itself to go.

See, this is the difference between you and entrepreneurs. Where most say "I don't think we can do anymore", someone else (usually quietly) says, "What if we tried this?" Not to say you can't be an entrepreneur, or that anyone couldn't be, you just have to think outside the box.



A similarily silly statement. Currently, physics puts the peak velocity at light speed. So, some astronomical BPS at lightspeed would be the theoretical limit of all paintball development. Plug in the speed of light into the formula above if you absolutely need to know... All that further limited by the physical properties of paintballs and the targets they are shot at.

Now see, you incorporated my thoughts into your example without knowing it. By saying currently, it sounds like you agree with me that RIGHT NOW there is a limit, but that those limits will be overcome, its only a matter of time. How long, no one can say. So for those looking for improvements tomorrow, sorry, you'll have to be patient. But improvements and changes will come. Remember, too, that with improvements to guns will come improvements to the other areas of the game, such as paintballs, out of necessity. When someone wants to shoot a gun that can't handle today's paintball, a new paintball will arise.



If the rules are widened to allow something, it's change. Not progress, not advancement, not improvement, change. As soon as someone has to push the envelope of the rules or outright break them to gain advantage, it's a change to the game. The game is simply different than it was before. Not "better" unless subjectively you agree with the change..

Speaking of silly statements... The ONLY reason games progress, advance, or improve is because the rules are changed to allow something that was not technologically possible before. Now whether or not its progress or improvement is subjective, but it is definately advancement. For an example, I go back to my previous statement about computers. Lets say computer gamers play Awesome Paintball against eachother over the internet. Now, rules say that processors can only have 5,000 circuits on them, because any more would be an unfair advantage. Since processors with more than 5,000 circuits cost a lot of money (due to being new technology), the rulemakers do this to level the playing field. Suddenly, a technology improvement comes that makes processors having 10,000 circuits cost the same as one with 5,000. But wait, thats still against the rules. So rulemakers change the rules to allow the faster processors to advance (but not necessarily improve) the game. And isn't this pushing the envelope what its all about?

As for the baseball bats in the majors, rules have limited technological growth there. Not to say rules are bad, since they are in position to attempt to make the game fair, but they do limit technological advancement. When pros can only use the same wooden bats, why try to make an alloy bat for them? Nevertheless, bats are not the exact same as they were when The Babe played, even though they might be only slightly improved.

[Lohman446]

Trying to compare playing a "sport" and I use the term very very loosely to computer gaming is ludicrous

[miv22]

Just to clarify, I was not comparing playing paintball to playing computer games, I was only using computers as an example for technology change and sport advancement, that is all.

[Lohman446]

Just to clarify, I was not comparing playing paintball to playing computer games, I was only using computers as an example for technology change and sport advancement, that is all.

There are far too many counterexamples of the limitation of technology in real sports for the example of technology change in gaming, if paintball is to be considered a sport, to be relevant.

[miv22]

Why? Sure technology change comes at a faster pace in the computer world than it does in, say, the baseball world, but baseball has been around for over a century, whereas computers have been in mainstream use for a little more than a decade and a half. Technology is bound to come at a faster pace when something is in its relative infancy, such as computers. And technology may improve at a different pace in different areas, but it will not cease as long as one person is still interested.

Now, I feel we are beginning to stray from the original topic, of which I hold the opinion that we have not seen the end of growth and change in electronic markers, only a slowdown in their advancement.

[hitech]

What will be the next advancement in electros?

[manike]

It will be... actually on second thoughts you'll need to wait and see. :rofl: :shooting:

[hitech]

:shooting:
It will be... actually on second thoughts you'll need to wait and see. :rofl: :shooting:


I can see you've spent to much time near NY... :rofl:

[robnix]

What will be the next advancement in electros?

I have this vision of some sort of electro/mechanical hybrid.

[SlartyBartFast]

Okay, MIV. You’re just being stupid and arguing for the sake of it.

you just have to think outside the box.
Stupid, simplistic statement. Entrepreneurial thinking has nothing to do with it.
As part of a sport, with rules, you MUST think within a defined “box”. The rules.
If thinking within the reality of the “box” imposed by the currently accepted rules, once you reach 15bps and your marker works within what is defined as acceptable ramping, you’ve reached the peak of development for the marker.
If air supply is a problem, or weight, perhaps there’s some development to do. But anything else is personal preference. Trigger pull and many other factors are what suits you best, not any special technological development or “advancement”.

it sounds like you agree with me that RIGHT NOW there is a limit, but that those limits will be overcome, its only a matter of time. How long, no one can say.
Fine you win the argument. :rolleyes
In 10,000 years we might be firing faster than light projectiles at each other that would be capable of destroying planets if we were not encased in some super strong armor.
[Bugs Bunny Voice]What a maroon.[/Bugs Bunny Voice]
Or more likely, we’ll just be playing HALO in a mind controlled AI world.
But sorry, as much as I might enjoy that scenario, that ain’t paintball.

So for those looking for improvements tomorrow, sorry, you'll have to be patient. But improvements and changes will come. Remember, too, that with improvements to guns will come improvements to the other areas of the game, such as paintballs, out of necessity. When someone wants to shoot a gun that can't handle today's paintball, a new paintball will arise.
You’re simply an idiot trolling in an argument for argument’s sake. We could change the baseball, the baseball bat, and replace the pitcher with a howitzer. Would it still be baseball? Would it be an “improvement”?
Better paintballs exist. For a much higher price. Want to fire them at higher speeds? Redesign all the required safety equipment first. So, once you’ve raised the price of play and the danger, what’s the “improvement”?
If you want live fire simulation, why not just go straight to using simunition and forget paintball altogether?
“Remember too”?!? Sure everything is possible if everything changes.

The ONLY reason games progress, advance, or improve is because the rules are changed to allow something that was not technologically possible before.
But you have to prove it’s necessary first. Technologically, you can use golf clubs with blasting caps to send balls for huge distances. Or, you can use specially dimpled balls for longer flight. But, you’ll never see any tour accept either.
REAL sports change their rules very little and only change them out of necessity to increase safety or limit the incursion of game changing technologies. The very ESSENCE of sport and competition is to artificially limit the field of engagement to test limited skills under specific circumstances.
Rugby by rule won’t even allow protective gear except for very limited and defined equipment...

Now whether or not its progress or improvement is subjective, but it is definately advancement.
Well, it might be “advancement” in terms of car speed, baseball launching, or golf ball launching. But it would be irrelevant to any race series that didn’t specifically allow it (or not speciffically ban it), the game of golf, or the game of golf.
Similarily, Zak Vetter firing an Automag at 34bps direct of a SCUBA may be technologically thrilling, but completely irrelevant to the sport of paintball under all accepted rules.

For an example, I go back to my previous statement about computers.
You sir, are an idiot. The relevance to the current discussion is ZERO. A computer processor limitation is a technological problem. Not a game rule.

And isn't this pushing the envelope what its all about?
No. Pushing the envelope within a SPORT is about working within the rules.
Pushing the limits is introducing Traction Control to F1 when the rules allowed it. Using engin management to do the same after it was outlawed is ethically questionable. Developing it after even that is against the rules pointless and irrelevant. Using it is cheating.
Developing ramping and bounce when the rules are CLEARLY “1 pull, 1 shot” is cheating. The change of the rules to accomodate the cheaters is a regrettable sellout by the tournaments to manufacturers and other vested interests to sell more paint at tournaments. Or a simple failure to be forceful or inventive enough to come up enforceable rules.

As for the baseball bats in the majors, rules have limited technological growth there. Not to say rules are bad, since they are in position to attempt to make the game fair, but they do limit technological advancement. When pros can only use the same wooden bats, why try to make an alloy bat for them? Nevertheless, bats are not the exact same as they were when The Babe played, even though they might be only slightly improved.
Sure, you could “advance” all kinds of things in Baseball. but at the cost of what changes? And there ARE limits to the development of technology in baseball even if you did accept everything possible. At some point you run out of space for the 20 mile away home run wall and can’t recruit players faster than they’re dieing of drug side-effects.
But I guess your moronic counter argument would have to admit that, just maybe, baseball could be an inter-planetary sport. What a joke. You win. You can have your pie-in-the-sky weirdo theoretical sports.
Doesn’t mean squat to anybody in the real world...

Trying to compare playing a "sport" and I use the term very very loosely to computer gaming is ludicrous
See above couldn’t agree more.
So, if we are to go along with the vacuous and meaningless truism that anything is possible, what is the relevance to the game of this new imaginary technology?
Recently a deisel powered car went 360mph. What’s the relevance to any discussion about racing technology in Cart, Champ, Players, F1 or anyother racing series? Nothing. Just a side show.

It will be... actually on second thoughts you'll need to wait and see. :rofl: :shooting:
Now, the Evolt (assumin gthat’s what you’re insinuating) is something that is certainly a technology that could affect the marketplace and game as played. Eliminating the requirement for compressors and replacing them with batteries could be an evolution of the technology used to play the game. As long as it’s not a limited technological niche/deadend like the C3 seems to have been.
That is it better fire at ION type speeds if it’s going to take over a significant portion of the market. Also, the cost of battries to run a full day of play (whether rotating, charging between games, or bringing enough batteries along for the day) has to be lower over the long run than buying a tank and using all-day air.

[Lohman446]

To take a rapidly advancing technological field (computers) and compare it to a "sport" is still ludicrous.

[zaqwert6]

"Sweetspotting" is introducing an artificial trigger pull; you finger substituting for a spring/solenoid. Which has nothing to do with the RT design itself.



What are you talking about ? At's ALL about the RT design itself. :)

I'm sure you don't want to hear it and I'm POSITIVE you won't admit it but the RT design is a poor overall design. It runs through extremely tight passages , dumps HP air 'past' the intregal regulator , (which causes) un-necessarily high amounts of heat , (which causes) ramping velocity at higher ROF and in the event of a tank reg failure of even a moderate degree (100-200psi spike) the trigger feel completely changes along with a large boost of the reactivity and the great potential for an unprepared user to dump 15 or 20 completely unexpected shots into a target should he just happen to take a shot in the fashion he's being doing all game up to that point. Hopefully that target wasn't someones mask who is now about to see an additional 15-20 shots likely to be over the legal FPS limit.

Irregardless.....

"Sweetspooting" , "RapdiFire" (ala Zak Vetter ) , whatever you want to call it when exploiting the RT triggger 'effect' is nothing more that putting just enough pressure on the trigger to get the marker to fire. You 'never' release that pressure which is precisely how it works. The trigger resets with more force than was required to pull it and then relaxes that force right at the point of trigger reset. It all happens faster than your finger muscles can react so with still the same amount of pressure applied to fire it the first time , it fires again and so on.

That is a long way from pull and release. ;)

Anyone with even a small amount of skill and a nicely setup RT can get well over 15BPS out of it with 1 ( one ) finger.

I defy anyone on the Planet to pull 15 BPS with a single finger and a full grip on the gripframe with the same hand on ANY marker electro or not on a legally setup semi only configuration.

THAT is why RT's got banned and rightfully so at the time.

[miv22]

Well congratulations Slarty, you have managed to promote the exact attitude, immaturity, and cockiness that was discussed in this same thread over a year ago that is making people want to leave the game of speedball and the sport of paintball altogether. I was under the impression that we were having a mature discussion, but apparently you cannot handle that. Now, you have not and will not discourage me from contributing my thoughts to this thread, but I would appreciate if the cheap shots and snide remarks would cease. Thank you.

[SlartyBartFast]

Well congratulations Slarty, you have managed to promote the exact attitude, immaturity, and cockiness that was discussed in this same thread over a year ago that is making people want to leave the game of speedball and the sport of paintball altogether. I was under the impression that we were having a mature discussion, but apparently you cannot handle that. Now, you have not and will not discourage me from contributing my thoughts to this thread, but I would appreciate if the cheap shots and snide remarks would cease. Thank you.

Sorry to have offended, my sarcasm overflowed as it is wont to do. But your line of argumentation is illogical and/or pointless. I'm not saying NO change is possible or that development won't necessarily happen. But evolution isn't about polar opposites. Nor do the realities of a sport lend themselves to unbridled development for ever greater performance from all equipment in any way possible.

You can argue till your blue in the face about whether possible technological development is limitless or not but it is futile for a number of reasons.

First there is a limit. Given certain constraints, you can go no further. As shown at 300fps there is an (unattainable) upper limit on bps.
Considering the need to mark opponents and play a safe game imposes other limits.
So saying there is NO limit is simply laughable and obtuse.

Then there is the question of relevance.

If you believe more is to come, what exactly? How will it change the sport? How will it even be applicable to the sport? For example Zak's mods, while fun, are fundamentally useless. As is every marker that fires above 15 fps or has modes that are unacceptable for intended play.

The Evolt is an example of something that might have an impact. It might fall by the wayside like the C3.

The pneumatic trigger is an example of patent hogging and missed opportunity as the market passed the niche by.

The idea of hyperfast projectiles and something other than paintballs can be classified and dismissed in the same fantasy category as future sports like running man and that version of hockey that was powered body armour and human demolition derby. :p

It's the line between science fiction and science fantasy.

[miv22]

Now this is the kind of discussion I enjoy. See, I disagree that there are no upper limits, but in general. I am not speaking only on BPS. You've proven with math that there is a limit to that. I mean to markers in general. They will be constantly evolving to meet the demands of an ever-changing game. As I said before, it won't be in speed, but other, possibly as of now unknown areas. And I do believe more is to come. Unfortunately, I don't know what yet. That is left up to people, such as Tom Kaye, who have the knowledge and the capital. I do wish I knew, though. I completely agree with you about Mr. Vetter's mods, and that is why I say that evolution will come not in the form of even greater BPS, but other areas. As for the line between reality and science fiction, it is becoming more blurred with every passing day.

[REDRT]

What are you talking about ? At's ALL about the RT design itself. :)

great potential for an unprepared user to dump 15 or 20 completely unexpected shots into a target



BS, pretty hard with a mechanical RT to have 15-20 balls unexpectedly fire. You'd have to really work at it to get that rate and then it would be far from unexpected. My arguement is anytime you get pegged by a mech marker period it was intentional unless maybe a marker malfuctioned somehow. I'd say 99.9% of the time it was intentional and claiming ignorance isn't a defence. ;)

[RoadDawg]

Just to clarify, I was not comparing playing paintball to playing computer games, I was only using computers as an example for technology change and sport advancement, that is all.

My lighter baseball bat example was better. :p

Anyways...

Sweet spotting a mag is ramping w/o the electronic board doing the work. I'm more ok with this one then not because it at least takes a physical concience effort by the user to hit the spot. However it is not part of the design of the RT. It was designed to snap the trigger back faster for the next pull. 1 shot 1 pull is not ramping. 2 shots and 1 pull is or in some electro's 4 quick pulls and hold the trigger to full auto is ramping and to me is what is killing the game (notice I never call pball a sport).

To answer the original question asked by Rogue. Yes the electro has for the most part hit the peak. Small tweaks might come along but nothing... earth shattering.

I went back to mech because it's more fun. I'm not playing in tournies because there is the "it's not wiping unless you get caught" attitude so I don't need the "ramping". The fact that upsets me is the "rampers/wipers" are spilling into meaningless rec ball.

[Dulie]

Tough to say. I guess the next one to unveil itself is BlueTooth. I dont know how that will advance things, but it will be interesting to see.

BlueTooth could make it so that your "coach" on the sidelines can adjust the marker for different playing conditions, or enable special "cheat modes" on the sidelines.

A more honorable use for BlueTooth is so that you can relay information to the sidelines to your "coach" or "trainer" (if anyone has one for this game), and they can keep an eye on what's going on with the markers, and then the techs can adjust them properly...."You're marker was using too much air...we're going to change the dwell and adjust the reg for a more optimum setting."

Or, even better, for the tournament organizers or refs/judges, keep an eye on who is ramping, and what modes are set up on the markers, and have notifications when someone moves into a "hidden" mode. If the tournaments had a specific standard for them, like you had to use this board to play in the tournament (with different models as needed for different markers), then it would be more like a setup that would be used for NASCAR, but just shorter range...and also, BlueTooth would work out well for it...since it is a low power RF, it wouldn't mess with the markers, and the actual device would be small. You could have the board allow the ramping that's allowed in PSP or X-Ball, but have locks on the board for when you're playing NPPL or some other series. It would be especially great if all of the tournament series would set a standard, then the only difference will be that when you are on the field, certain modes are disabled.

That would be the upper end of regulation, but I can see it happening...especially with the cheating that seems to be happening. Now we just have to find a way to have the bunkers detect wipers and bop them on the head if they wipe...like Doc would do. <shameless plug> if you don't know what I'm talking about, go to www.the-whitboard.com </shameless plug>

I am in no way saying that I would prefer the use of the BlueTooth technology in this manner, but it's another route.

Alright, just my $0.02. And yes, I am prepared for receiving change on my $0.02

[hitech]

BlueTooth could make it so that your "coach" on the sidelines can adjust the marker for different playing conditions, or enable special "cheat modes" on the sidelines.


Why does everyone think Bluetooth is capable of "long range" transmission? It won't work that far.

[StygShore]

I know Bluetooth headsets for the LG9800 phone have a range close to 100ft.

I worked with a guy who regularly left/forgot his phone on his desk and could talk on it until he got to the back of our warehouse, or got down about 3 suites in the parking lot.


Styg

[Dulie]

Why does everyone think Bluetooth is capable of "long range" transmission? It won't work that far.

I know the transmission distance of Bluetooth, it's usually 30 to 100 feet at the VERY max. One thing though is that you can use antennas to squeeze more range out of it, and if you use a semi directional antenna, you could use a few to cover the field enough to "see" the markers. This would be more for a Speedball format, and not for woodsball.

I just thought of something else that could be done...you could also have it so the ultimate judge can make it so the markers are not active before the start of the round, and turn them on just as the round starts.

Also, the wireless solution doesn't need to be Bluetooth, it could be something else that has a short range and low power consumption...that's just an example.

or a more gadget happy idea would be to put a cell phone in the marker and have a bluetooth headset interface.

And again, that too could be disabled by the judges.

[Arstron]

or a more gadget happy idea would be to put a cell phone in the marker and have a bluetooth headset interface.

I would rather see bluetooth used to interface the gun with my mask so I could have my HUD to tell me how fast I am shooting, how much time is left in the game, how many shots I should have left in my hopper. Of course the HUD its self would have to have a compas and a tracking system that picks up heat signatures. :dance:

[mobsterboy]

If electros have seen their peak, what does that bode for the industry and the manufacturers?

a collapse in the industry
or getting more creative

better question, whats next?

[Tool-of-death]

Right, what is next.

The industry has grown the last few years by breaking the rules. Now that all the rules have been broken, whats next?!?

I dont know. Do you have any ideas?

an uprising in mech and pumps (I wish anyhow :()

[mobsterboy]

Right, what is next.

The industry has grown the last few years by breaking the rules. Now that all the rules have been broken, whats next?!?

I dont know. Do you have any ideas?

size is all thats left, makign the gun so small its ridiculous. As far as the tourney scene, i foresee higher bps rules, "multiple lives", extra padding in the jerseys, double thick lenses, and someone will prob come out with the paintball version of a nuclear bomb that will just demolish the sport and what was left of its followers. Its gonna run itself into the ground to be honest with you. The game's no longer fun cuz cheating is the sport. I honeslty think that if paintball just died down some, ok, not some, a freaking lot, the cycle will begin again. As far as stock class/mech play, it will continue to do just fine, althought pneumatic assist triggers will be the new hated thing in mech play

[Philey-O-Fish]

I don't know if electro has seen its peak. It seems that as general technology increases, so does the manufacturing of these new paintball markers. So who knows what is next?

The cost of acquiring and shooting these guns is IMO insane. I play paintball, be it speedball or rec, with a pump (I like the light weight and small profile) and at the end of the day I can look back and say I had a hell of a day for $20 and I can look forward to next time.

[Tool-of-death]

Interesting viewpoint. Some of it funny, other points realistic.




I agree. But, its cheaper to play now than it has ever been. Paint, air, and markers are cheaper, faster, better.

Makes you re-think why paintball isnt better. And one conclusion is that it has nothing to do with cost of play alone.

Anyone remember the "high end" markes of old?

300-400$ for a blowback semi auto and people thought semi-automatic would ruin the sport :D

[rabidchihauhau]

I posted by what I have seen over the years. It was not aimed only at Tom Kaye, who’s post I did use to preface my own opinions with. But I would not go as far as to say TK “sacrificed” anything for the good of the game. He was a business man. He saw a market and entered into it. He then, in my opinion, left paintball on the sidelines for a more lucrative military and law enforcement angle. I understand why he did this, and it was a good move to take those markets… but I don’t think the lackluster attention paid to the “game” segment was a wise move. But it was HIS business, and he was free to do anything he wanted to with it.



I didn’t “scoff” at a 30% drop in sales, I only put it in its proper place (IMHO). Take for example this: “Last year I made $1,000,000 in profits. This year I saw a 30% drop in profits. It was such a BAD year and I may have to close my doors.” This is how I see much of the numbers games being played and how they want the public to believe things are “so bad”. Let’s ignore the fact that with a 30% drop in profits or even sales, the numbers brought in would still be $700,000.

As long as you are making more than you are spending, it is still good. The rate of growth may not be what you “like”, but I kind of find it insulting to cry about a 30% drop in sales when that drop was coming from an all time high in sales. Now if a business was getting a 30% drop in sales every year for many years running, THAT would be something to worry about.


I do think in many cases the manufacturers are telling customers what to buy. They have made the market and direct it, not the other way around. If it was not this way, they would not have focused on tournament play (which has always been the smallest portion of the players) but instead made products that the average player wanted, could afford, and fit better with their playing style. This is not to say any marker can not be used for any style of play (because they can) but it is clear to anyone who was watching that the industry was trying to direct the entire game into a style that they could (in their opinions) make more money off of.

We now see companies changing directions and heading back into the largest segments of players… which is good. Even with what I consider “manufacturer lead” production and sales we have seen many changes over the years. Things must progress and it is natural. And not every year will show the same rates of sales, nor even the same rate of growth of sales. EVERY business has this, and every industry does as well.


And I disagree. I think it is indeed a matter of adjusting and moving on. Why should the paintball industry be any different than any other? And it baffles me when players (and even businesses) seem to think paintball (the industry) should live in its own little alternate universe not ruled by laws, standard business practices, and even growth and plateau trends. I would also argue that while some players and manufacturers are leaving the arena because they are sick of things, that many manufacturers are leaving because they simply can’t compete any longer.

As for paintball being a sport where everyone used to support each other… I am sure it may have looked that way from the outside, but I can assure you that paintball was never the utopia folks seem to what to believe it was. People sued others. Businesses were taken over or forced out of business. Players complained about markers, prices, and fields. Overshooting and obnoxious behavior was seen on fields. Every issue we see today was there, only on a smaller scale.

And if a player leaves the sport they love because of what businesses are doing, I would argue that they didn’t love the “game” as much as they claimed they did. There should be few situations where what a manufacturer does should force a player to quit the game. I think players quit the game because of other players, or changes in their lives. But far too often I see what manufacturers do and what players do linked together when they simply should not be, because they are not.

The same is true if a player stopped playing the game because of what they read on an internet forum, or how people online treat them. If they quit for that reason they didn’t truly love the game in the first place. They simply wanted to be “liked” by some group, and they could have easily chosen any online community for that purpose.

Wow shartley - something obviously pushed one of your buttons.

I've not read the whole thing and have not read most of the exchange generated by Tom's comments - its gone off on such a wrong direction I feel I can comment meaningfully without having read everything.

ANY industry that sees a one year drop in sales of 30% IS IN TROUBLE. Its no 'boo hoo, I only made a 700,000 in profit this year', its OMG, all of my customers are disappearing!

The industry is glutted. There are at least two or three too many paint manufacturers serving the US market. There are at least two or three major 'hard parts' manufacturers serving the industry. Some have to get bought out or go under for the industry to have a hope of getting healthy again. ALL of them are hanging on right now, thinking that they can outlast their competition - which is only serving to make the situation worse.

Do you not realize that the loss of 30% of the market basically means that the PROFIT is gone? That's essentially what it comes down to. We're in a no-profit, losing money every quarter industry. If we're a 500,000,000 domestic industry, we've just lost 150,000,000 in revenue; if the industry is running at 15% profit margin - we're now in the hole (as an industry) by 75 million.

The trend is even more ominous: fields and stores are demanding lower cost product because 'that's all we can sell right now'; the suppliers cut their costs and their margins to comply: WE ARE IN A NEGATIVE CASH FLOW CYCLE.

There are only two ways out of such a thing: 1. down-sizing. 2. infusion of external cash (which imposes a further burden of servicing that debt)

There IS a third way - but for all intensive purposes, the so-called paintball 'industry' has foregone any chance to use it, and that's to BUILD; even in the best of all possible worlds, its very difficult to build during a down-cycle.

I must now revise my prediction of last year which was, at the time, that paintball was entering a consolidation phase that would last about a year. I was right in analyzing where we were, I was gravely mistaken about the duration.

I was also asked by many to predict what would happen this 'summer' and the ensuing fall season and my response was "we'll see a short-term rise in sales/purchasing during september - a week or two - and it will then go slow until after thanksgiving; the x-mas ordering will ONLY kick in if players come back to the fields in a sustained manner.

I was wrong on that score also. We had a rise in sales - all of TWO DAYS. x-mas sales are going to be dismal. As a result of that - here is my prognostication for the remainder of 2006:

based on the hopes of a resurgance, the mfgs have ramped up to fill an already choked pipeline. Nothing is moving out of the stores. The pipeline will remain glutted until well after x-mas - therefore, no huge buying surge.

Additional fields and stores will go out of business, dumping even more product onto the market. The demand for high-end paints will continue to erode, as will the demand for all high-end product.

If at least one paint mfg doesn't give up the ghost, ALL of them are going to be in even more trouble than they are now.

The industry 'that never was' is collapsing and I'm about to become the owner of 100% of the buggywhip market...

[Tool-of-death]

Wow shartley - something obviously pushed one of your buttons.

I've not read the whole thing and have not read most of the exchange generated by Tom's comments - its gone off on such a wrong direction I feel I can comment meaningfully without having read everything.

ANY industry that sees a one year drop in sales of 30% IS IN TROUBLE. Its no 'boo hoo, I only made a 700,000 in profit this year', its OMG, all of my customers are disappearing!

The industry is glutted. There are at least two or three too many paint manufacturers serving the US market. There are at least two or three major 'hard parts' manufacturers serving the industry. Some have to get bought out or go under for the industry to have a hope of getting healthy again. ALL of them are hanging on right now, thinking that they can outlast their competition - which is only serving to make the situation worse.

Do you not realize that the loss of 30% of the market basically means that the PROFIT is gone? That's essentially what it comes down to. We're in a no-profit, losing money every quarter industry. If we're a 500,000,000 domestic industry, we've just lost 150,000,000 in revenue; if the industry is running at 15% profit margin - we're now in the hole (as an industry) by 75 million.

The trend is even more ominous: fields and stores are demanding lower cost product because 'that's all we can sell right now'; the suppliers cut their costs and their margins to comply: WE ARE IN A NEGATIVE CASH FLOW CYCLE.

There are only two ways out of such a thing: 1. down-sizing. 2. infusion of external cash (which imposes a further burden of servicing that debt)

There IS a third way - but for all intensive purposes, the so-called paintball 'industry' has foregone any chance to use it, and that's to BUILD; even in the best of all possible worlds, its very difficult to build during a down-cycle.

I must now revise my prediction of last year which was, at the time, that paintball was entering a consolidation phase that would last about a year. I was right in analyzing where we were, I was gravely mistaken about the duration.

I was also asked by many to predict what would happen this 'summer' and the ensuing fall season and my response was "we'll see a short-term rise in sales/purchasing during september - a week or two - and it will then go slow until after thanksgiving; the x-mas ordering will ONLY kick in if players come back to the fields in a sustained manner.

I was wrong on that score also. We had a rise in sales - all of TWO DAYS. x-mas sales are going to be dismal. As a result of that - here is my prognostication for the remainder of 2006:

based on the hopes of a resurgance, the mfgs have ramped up to fill an already choked pipeline. Nothing is moving out of the stores. The pipeline will remain glutted until well after x-mas - therefore, no huge buying surge.

Additional fields and stores will go out of business, dumping even more product onto the market. The demand for high-end paints will continue to erode, as will the demand for all high-end product.

If at least one paint mfg doesn't give up the ghost, ALL of them are going to be in even more trouble than they are now.

The industry 'that never was' is collapsing and I'm about to become the owner of 100% of the buggywhip market...

In short there is more supply than demand, and no one is willing (or cannot) lower the prices toget rid of the supply.

Or even shorter: paintball is a cancer patiant, it's going to be a long and expensive process just to die anyhow.

[mobsterboy]

In short there is more supply than demand, and no one is willing (or cannot) lower the prices toget rid of the supply.

Or even shorter: paintball is a cancer patiant, it's going to be a long and expensive process just to die anyhow.

We need like a Agg Kiddie Holocaust or something
:ninja:

[hitech]

As my wife is a surviving breast cancer patient, I find the analogies unsettling and unnecessary. Everyone can post as they wish, but know that it causes pain to one long time AO member…

[Pneumagger]

rabidchiuahuah... excellent post. In an effort to explain what your observations/predictions are is as follows:

Look at the historical paintball market from say the early 90's to about 2004. Paintball was experiencing it's technical revolution you might say. Every year there were advancements in technology that lended significant increase in utility to players year after year.

Crude Example: Pump > Semi > speed > loaders > electros > eyes > faster guns> faster loaders > smaller > etc.

Looking at the market today, technology stagnation and restrictions has halted advancement in marker improvement. Players no longer have a reason to buy the latest and the greatest. They stopped listening to hype and know that an 03 socker is just as good as an 06 or any other such example. The modern manufactures are catering to the tournament players, when most of the market is in recball/woodsball sales.

In short... Players are wising up and don't have to buy a new marker every year to stay competitive. In the past they used too, now they don't, and the companies have been increaseing output instead of shifting markets.

There are growing successfull portions in the industry that cater to the budget players and local paintball scene. Too many companies are trying to be elite company and the vast majoruty of the market is suffering for the small tourney scene.

Look at the auto industry. There are a few sportscar makers and a bunch of auto manufactures. They each have a different aiming point. In paintball, everyone is aiming for the top spot at the expense of overlooking the bulk of the money market.

To answer the topic: The electro has seen it's peak in growth, but will remain at the top with a consistent market share percentage.

[slade]

Looking at the market today, technology stagnation and restrictions has halted advancement in marker improvement. Players no longer have a reason to buy the latest and the greatest. They stopped listening to hype and know that an 03 socker is just as good as an 06 or any other such example. The modern manufactures are catering to the tournament players, when most of the market is in recball/woodsball sales.
you can't really say that. the companies are a better judge anyway. the majority of rec/woodsball players DO use "tourney" electro markers, while there are companies (tippmann, kingman, PMI, K2, AGD in part, and smaller companies) that release products mostly or entirely for the woods/rec market.

[Grey Goose]

I think pneumagger is right about people realizing they don't have to buy every new gun to stay competitive.

I've said for a long time now that electros would kill paintball.

Consider the Newb. He goes out for his first game of recball and gets his rental Tippy. He's armed and dangerous. He will then spend the next three hours either:
a) cowering in a bunker, waiting to be lit up by a Ion, 'Trix, or some other electro.
b) cowering in the rest area listening to the aforementioned markers being dry fired as rapidly as possible.

Is it a wonder that players are exiting the sport but not being replaced?

Consider also that an electro requires a high dollar hopper. In the old days, you got a 'mag or 'cocker and continued to use your gravity hopper. When you learned to shoot faster, you bought a new hopper. This is a small item, but worth mentioning, because it adds another price barrier.

Consider that playing with electros take a LOT of the fun out of the game. Remember the old days when you were running around shooting at each other? Now we just sit behind bunkers. Faster guns = shut down running lanes = less movement = less fun.

My idea of the future of paintball is that the electro has not only peaked, but has hurt the sport. The resurgence of stock/pump is a rejection of the electro.

I think we'll see an increase in pistol (look at the TAC 8) play, and I also think fields should SERIOUSLY consider seperating electro and mechanical players.

Field owners who are not actively encouring newbies to return, by any means necessary, are cutting their own throats. I think those means start with limitation or elimination of electros in play with said newbies.

[Pneumagger]

you can't really say that. the companies are a better judge anyway. the majority of rec/woodsball players DO use "tourney" electro markers, while there are companies (tippmann, kingman, PMI, K2, AGD in part, and smaller companies) that release products mostly or entirely for the woods/rec market. I was basically getting at the point of owning the latest and greatest electros. Big companies continue to pump out markers that cost more and offer marginal gains in performance. This type of marketing is clearly aimed at the professional level tourney scene where all advantages can be seen as neccessary.

However, while making guns more expensive and negligably better (to the point where 90% of all players don't feel it is worth an upgrade) they discontinue last years models leaving the average player to buy used (hurting the company). The big companies have been in this pissing contest using hype for so long, that they've hurt themselves. When's the last time the paintball community has seen a must have product since the Halo?

Until something new hits the market, manufactures will have to cut prices by at least 30% to continue growth. Remember, at every price level there is a merket saturation point. Right now, we seem to be on the brink of market saturation. Either the manufacturers must lower prices or stay at the current market share. You cant honestly tell me these electro's cost $800-$1000 to make... there's room to drop prices.

Jay/Nicad - as the push back to mech continues... then would be the time to release an air assisted trigger. :shooting:

[Lohman446]

I was basically getting at the point of owning the latest and greatest electros. Big companies continue to pump out markers that cost more and offer marginal gains in performance.

I theoretically disagree with you. Compare the "cutting edge top markers" of five years ago (whatever SP called there 'cocker, the Cobra Angels, etc.) to the price of todays markers. The fact seems that top end marker prices are slowly coming down while offering marginal gains in performance.

[don miguel]

I myself have gone down from an electro to a semi. I used to own a spyder electra acs o5. It broke down alot and wasn't good for woodsball. Plus I wasted so much paint overshooting. Now I have a minimag that can do 10 bps and I am fine with that. I am happy more people have gone to pump, that is where skill takes over firepower.
Just about any nubie can pick up an ion and go spray and pray. That takes the skill out of paintball and makes it less fun. If you are expierienced a pump marker or non electro semi should be just fine. :cheers:

[Pneumagger]

Actionvillage and other Retailers:

MacDev '06 Borg - $950+
PL Ego - $1500+
Ego - $1000+
Angel 1 - $1000+
DM6 - $1000+ <----- In the order that I beleve is best -> worst
Onyx - $1000+
'06 timmy - $999
Shocker NXT - $750
Nerve - $999 :confused:

Now how many of these guns are significantly better than their used couterparts that can be had for half the price? And these are '06 markers. Wait until the '07 models hit the market. Same BS, slightly higher pricetag. :rolleyes:

Back in '02/'03, a brand new Viking retail was $800-$900. Those guns were superior to everything back then and almost all on that list above too. (minus the modern size comparison) Angels in APG Magazine back in 2000 were about $999. So were the turbo shockers, and Automag R/T's. The only company that has attempted to move massive volume with price cuts in the past year is SP.

[slade]

I myself have gone down from an electro to a semi.
im sorry, did you actually just call a spyder a legitimate electro? :p


Now how many of these guns are significantly better than their used couterparts that can be had for half the price? And these are '06 markers. Wait until the '07 models hit the market. Same BS, slightly higher pricetag. :rolleyes:
slightly higher pricetag? prices of high end electros have been going down steadily.

[Pneumagger]

slightly higher pricetag? prices of high end electros have been going down steadily.

Only very recently. And that can be seen as market saturation and the advent of $199 competitive entry electros.

[Lohman446]

Actionvillage and other Retailers:

MacDev '06 Borg - $950+
PL Ego - $1500+
Ego - $1000+
Angel 1 - $1000+
DM6 - $1000+ <----- In the order that I beleve is best -> worst
Onyx - $1000+
'06 timmy - $999
Shocker NXT - $750
Nerve - $999 :confused:

Now how many of these guns are significantly better than their used couterparts that can be had for half the price? And these are '06 markers. Wait until the '07 models hit the market. Same BS, slightly higher pricetag. :rolleyes:

I disagree with your assessment of the Viking as the Benchmark and your comparing used prices to new. 03 Shocker in 03 was like $1000. A Shocker NXT, with 'slight' advances is considerably less. Not sure off hand on Timmies but I seem to recall when they were over a grand, as was the DM4

[rabidchihauhau]

There are, of course, multiple issues at play here. I believe the key factors are:

market saturation
negative cash flow
lack of new player growth
the economy, stupid

1. there are too many companies offering similar products, at similar price points, for anyone to be able to turn sustainable sales numbers.

Coupled to that is the 'mind-set' on the part of every manufacturer that if they can hang on long enough, they'll reap the rewards as their competitors fall by the wayside; in other industries, we would be experiencing a round of buy-outs at this point - consolidation, if you will. While some of that seems to be happening, its not enough and not soon enough. Rather than recognizing the inevitable, almost everyone seems to feel that THEY are the ones who are going to win. End result - lots of companies limping along, trying to keep their heads above water, with many making ill-considered, desperate moves to stay in the game.

2. obvious end result of #1, this exacerbates the situation; sponsorship dollars are drying up, advertising dollars are drying up, new product releases are suffering, etc.; this mostly affects the '2nd tier companies' - folks who earn their dollars off of something the mfgs do. In a nutshell, when liquid assets get tight, companies cut back, which has a negative effect on sales, which makes the money tighter, which causes more cut-backs...

3. as a result of 1 & 2, most companies are loathe to spend dollars on 'growth', because right now, doing so is sending good dollars into a pit of uncertainty; better to spend the advertising and marketing bucks on things that show a solid return. Like any other negative spiral, lack of investment in future growth means a smaller market ad infinitum

4. the external economy does not help either and remains a major factor even if paintball as an industry is unable to affect it. The industry took a double whammy from 'the economy'; higher costs across the board (parts, materials, manufacturing, shipping both ways, labor, benefits, etc) and diminshment of disposable income on the part of customers. (I can't prove it with numbers, but I have this terrible feeling that a very large percentage of would-be paintballers are becoming air softers instead, if only because the associated cost of that game is arguably a TENTH of paintball costs). Sure the economy created umpteen new jobs last quarter - but those jobs are for the most part low-end, low-paying, no-benefits jobs. Add to that that many, many families bought into ARM mortgages, citizen savings are at their lowest point ever AND its a known fact that most average everyday folks are living off their credit cards and you have a population that is not capable of spending several hundred dollars a weekend for 'fun'. So, we have higher associated costs and lack of dispoable income - with an imperative for mfg to try and close the gap - which means lesser margins, which means smaller cash flow and - right back into the negative spiral.

I do not believe that the picture is going to improve significantly until - the product glut has ended, someone, somewhere addresses the 'growth' issue with dollars and the economy itself starts putting more bucks into your average middle-class family budget; or - some new technology comes along that breaks the back of the industry as we know it (make paintballs at home kit...?)

[Lurker27]

The electro has not seen it's peak.

[RogueFactor]

The electro has not seen it's peak.

Considering the new 2006 SGMA numbers, do you still believe this to be true? ;)

[mostpeople]

There was talk of an all mechanical tourney league, I would really like to see that happen...

[cyrus-the-virus]

wow rouge, this thread is 2 months shy of being a year old....

[rabidchihauhau]

those are very interesting numbers. I'm plugging them into some excel spreadsheets to see what else they might tell us...

interesting that I've been saying for YEARS that backyarders make up anywhere from 2/3rds to 3/4rs of the player base.

interesting that 50% left - when the previous swag was that your average player lasted 18 months. Of course, we don't know how long that 50% has been playing: I left and was in it since '83...

[rabidchihauhau]

I find those numbers particularly interesting in light of the fact that people general say that paintball is a half-billion to 1 billion dollars annually industry.

That's worldwide.

Now, if you take the 2.4 million who played 1-7 times and assume all of them played once
and you take the 650,000 who played 8-14 times and assume they played 8 times only
and you take the 1.9 million who played 15 or more times and assume they played 15 times only

and you add all of those "player-days" together, you get 36.1 million player days.

Thats anything from popping off 100 rounds for 15 minutes to a full 8-10 hour day.

If you take that 36.1 million player days and divide it into a billion dollars, you get 27.7 and change - say 28 bucks.

So, in order for paintball in the US alone to generate LESS than one billion dollars a year, you're looking at the average cost for a day at UNDER 30 dollars per player.

Not likely. Suppose your average backyarder gets a bag of 500 rounds and one 20 ounce fill: what's that - $15 to $25 bucks.

Everyone else is over the 30: you buy a bargain basement case - its 25 plus right there. add an entry fee of 5 bucks and you've still got all day air at 10 - now we're at 40 dollars.

What about the player days that represent tournaments and scenario games? Easily 100 per player - 60+ for paint, 15 to 25+ for entry, 10+ for air... food, drink.

NO equipment sales of any kind are figured in above. You buy one nicknack and you're over the limit. And we're only talking the US.

I think its pretty clear that either paintball dollars are devalued by 90%, or the industry is generating revenues WELL in excess of 1 billion per year.

[mag_lover05]

players are now more then in a long time moving to pump/mech play, several of my fields are starting mech only tourny's

[RogueFactor]

I find those numbers particularly interesting in light of the fact that people general say that paintball is a half-billion to 1 billion dollars annually industry.

Which people say that? Industry folks? Or just your standard joe? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Lurker27]

Considering the new 2006 SGMA numbers, do you still believe this to be true? ;)

I'm speaking purely from a technological standpoint.

As a play format...Maybe. I'd wager the core group of electro wielding tournament players has increased, while the margins of the woodsballers shrink.

The real problem I have is that the electros are getting so cheap now, they find their ay into the hands of first time players, and I suspect its not nearly as much fun playing against a 17bps ion as a mech spyder or tippmann, when you're learning.

[MedicDVG]

wow rouge, this thread is 2 months shy of being a year old....
This thread was started 07-28-2005

Interesting read to see if the attitudes and everything have changed. Surprisingly not....

The original question I think can be answered that no, it has not seen its peak quite yet. I think the high end electro's have seen a plateau, while the introduction of midrange to low end electro and electro-pneumatic markers will see steady growth especially in the 3rd party production market ala Virtue boards for damn near every marker out there.

That being said, I still think that the industry is basing its success on the player where shooting 20+ BPS is not a financial hardship. Put into perspective lets say an "average" case of paint is $50.00 -- not talking quality here, rather only price. That is roughly 3 cents a shot per case... at 20 BPS you are shooting at about .60 cents a second... for sake of argument you lets even round that down to .50/sec.. Still you are shooting a dollar worth of paint every 2 seconds...

When you talk to people who have left the sport or are on semi-permanent sabbatical I see mostly 2 key areas.

1) Attitudes -- the "win at any cost" mentality takes the fun out of the game. Overshooting, wiping, "the F those guys/HK/Agg mentality", and ultra competitive nature turns a LOT of people away from the sport. We used to promote this sport to parents as one that reinforces team building, integrity, and fair play. Now there are teams that make the worst little league parent look like Ward and June Cleaver...

2) Cost -- again throwing a dollar out the window every 2 seconds....


I am more of the Sunday get with your buds and play in the woods type player. I enjoy reffing speedball more then I do playing it, and if I do play speedball it is with one of my pumps. That is the way I grew up with this sport, and thats the way uh huh uh huh I like it...
:dance:

[nathanjones008]

This thread was started 07-28-2005

Interesting read to see if the attitudes and everything have changed. Surprisingly not....

The original question I think can be answered that no, it has not seen its peak quite yet. I think the high end electro's have seen a plateau, while the introduction of midrange to low end electro and electro-pneumatic markers will see steady growth especially in the 3rd party production market ala Virtue boards for damn near every marker out there.

That being said, I still think that the industry is basing its success on the player where shooting 20+ BPS is not a financial hardship. Put into perspective lets say an "average" case of paint is $50.00 -- not talking quality here, rather only price. That is roughly 3 cents a shot per case... at 20 BPS you are shooting at about .60 cents a second... for sake of argument you lets even round that down to .50/sec.. Still you are shooting a dollar worth of paint every 2 seconds...

When you talk to people who have left the sport or are on semi-permanent sabbatical I see mostly 2 key areas.

1) Attitudes -- the "win at any cost" mentality takes the fun out of the game. Overshooting, wiping, "the F those guys/HK/Agg mentality", and ultra competitive nature turns a LOT of people away from the sport. We used to promote this sport to parents as one that reinforces team building, integrity, and fair play. Now there are teams that make the worst little league parent look like Ward and June Cleaver...

2) Cost -- again throwing a dollar out the window every 2 seconds....


I am more of the Sunday get with your buds and play in the woods type player. I enjoy reffing speedball more then I do playing it, and if I do play speedball it is with one of my pumps. That is the way I grew up with this sport, and thats the way uh huh uh huh I like it...
:dance:

Great point! I perfer playing woods/ rec ball. The high comp takes the fun out of the game. Thats why i dont play speedball that often I think electros have not hit the peak either, not yet at least.( The xmag 2 is coming out before the peak :ninja: ) :shooting: THere is nothing like playing capture the flag in woods ball. I love putting one flag in the middle somewhere. I love using tactics besides just spryaing and praying :bounce: I think one day woods ball will make a come back.

[Lohman446]

Has paintball / the electro seen a peak? Yeh - it has. In hindsight I think we can point to the numbers and show that. Are there big problems for companies that were set up dependent on the massive increases of the decade? Yeh, but thats just poor business practice to expect a start up industrty to maintain incredible growth. You are going to loose some companies, some competition in the short term.

That being said... paintball has not seen "the" peak. In 20 years sales and participant numbers will be better. There are bound to be various peaks and valleys between here and then, and changes, changes we cannot imagine. But, in the end, I expect you are going to find there is overall upward movement through those peaks and valleys.

[Zone Drifter]

For me, Electro as certainly seen its peak. I played some tourneys out of friend request, given a gun (proto) and just went out. It got old real fast, and while walking never felt better, i was only able to tag out people with 1 bps, not like 20.

I'm really thinking of a pistol/pump and single trigger mechanical concept, maybe someday i'll make a field that sponsors someone like tiberius, CCi and whoever else makes simple, reliable guns that make the sport fun. Of course, i have no money, no land and no sense of buisness ownership so that wont be happening anytime soon, if at all.

I would really like to see more mechanical only tourneys. I mean, sure the automag rt can rip, but even still its not as careless are throwing paint with an electro. (unless you bouce the trigger, and who wouldnt love to mess with that) but i honestly have gotten tired of wasting money on air and paint. luckily, ive never paid for an electronic gun, nor will i ever. I've played half my paintball "carrer" with a JT excellerator, and guys with angels were asking me what i was using. When they see JT on the gun, they just walk away. Yeah, even I am ashamed of it sometimes, but they made a good gun at one point, just forgot how to do it in the past 5 years.

Anyway, im going mechanical freestyle all the way. mechs + experience = Fun > electro