Mags in Tournaments [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

Chronobreak

08-02-2005, 03:42 PM

At the Owners Group Division at IAO Team AO - using a combination of E/X mags (and one Devilmag) took second place out of the 11 teams. Of course... it was the Brass Eagle Rainmaker group that beat us and it is not exactly the most competetivly orientated tournament in the world... but we had a lot of fun and our markers actually made it through the entire tournament.

lohman was your d-mag chopping? or what i saw some pics of the breech/outside filled with paint. :confused:

your fine using an e-mag, regardless of what some of the new age hype monkeys will/might say.

Lohman446

08-02-2005, 04:03 PM

I tried to use Hellfire in a mag, then did not quit pulling hte trigger - I had a liquid line in my loader. It was not a chop in technical sense, as the balls were fully loading, the bolt and the force feed just combined to make them explode either as they hit the bottom of the breech or as the bolt hit it. It was a serious mess.

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 04:31 PM

Mags are not for tournies anymore, I don't care what the AO faithful preach. Great rec guns however! I have nothing bad to say about mags.

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 04:36 PM

^^^^FALSE With the new pred boards comeing out mags can and have kept up with turny guns for how much you want to say they werent made for turny play your dead wrong.

master_alexander

08-02-2005, 04:41 PM

i will use my new emag out there. you can only shoot 15 annyway...

emags and xmags are still used. especally with the ppredator board coming out.

i <3 my emag

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 04:50 PM

^^^^FALSE With the new pred boards comeing out mags can and have kept up with turny guns for how much you want to say they werent made for turny play your dead wrong.
I don't care about new boards, sure they keep up, but still are hard on paint. The DevilMag mod even takes out the LX to use eyes, but the gun at high pressures will destroy most tournament paint before it even leaves the breach as the paint used in tournies is usually really thin shelled.

VFX_Fenix

08-02-2005, 04:53 PM

^^^^FALSE With the new pred boards comeing out mags can and have kept up with turny guns for how much you want to say they werent made for turny play your dead wrong.

Dude, calm down, with only 100 boads on the project I doubt the Predator will bring the E/X-Mag back to even a marginal presence in any tournament series which crosses more than regional boundries. Even when the E-Mag was new and there were AGD sponsored teams the gun wasn't as popular as the LCD Angel by a long shot or later the Matrix and Intimidator.

Even if Pred boards were magically installed in every E/X-Mag ever made I still doubt they'd make any sort of serious resurgance into the tournament scene.

That isn't to say the E-Mag isn't tournament capable, it is, but then again so is an Angel LCD and the original Diablo Direct Matrix, and how many of those do you see floating around in todays tournament environment?

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 04:53 PM

lol ok buddy w/e you say your the jenious who knows everything i forgot :rolleyes:

BD_Paintball

08-02-2005, 04:53 PM

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 04:56 PM

lol ok buddy w/e you say your the jenious who knows everything i forgot :rolleyes:
GENIUS. Stay in school............
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=genius

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 04:56 PM

Stay in bed

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 04:59 PM

Stay in bed
Why are you always so hostile?! Damn, just agree to disaggree.

Tunaman

08-02-2005, 05:07 PM

i was thinking the same thing as WARPED1 the lvl10 will destroy most tourny paint. not to mention the weight of emags. yes you can say ule everything and get pred but that will cost ALOT more then to just pick up your regular high end tourny marker. ule emag = $850.00 pred board = alot.
Its seems that knowledgeable minds think alike! :tard: The Level 10 will stop on a dollar bill so don't give me that crap it wont shoot tourney paint. You two guys talk alot of crap about mags. Keep it up. Won't be long now. :mad: :cuss:

BD_Paintball

08-02-2005, 05:10 PM

Lohman446

08-02-2005, 05:13 PM

eyes > lvl10 you lose :rolleyes:

My mag has eyes, any questions?

BTW: My mag, my Shockers, my Matrix all > your Impulse... so sowwy :D

Chronobreak

08-02-2005, 05:14 PM

Why are you always so hostile?! Damn, just agree to disaggree.

lol...

looks like tuna is in teh know too ;) :ninja:
im curious what makes mags so..unable to compete, and as tuna said..lvlX will shoot anythign another gun will.(ive done test so dont giv me BS about guns that will shoot paint that mags wont)

honestly while amgs arent very prevelant and CERTAINLY not the choice for msot tourney players, there is no reason they CAN'T compete....however i would say they still have a slight disadvantage in af ew areas but nothing a good user couldnt overcome.

btw something like a devilmag,em frame, are those not able to compete because theyr not super-fast electros that are illegal by most standards.(i say most because..well standards went down the drain long ago)

im curious what makes mags so..unable to compete, and as tuna said..lvlX will shoot anything.

dont give me they eyes >lvlX crap either..because well eyes can get dirty..then what?

i cant believe you guys drageed me into thise flamefest crap again :mad:

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 05:14 PM

lol the lvl7 hammers paint I'd chose lvl10 over eyes ANY DAY I had less chops than Lohman and i was useing lvl10 no eyes

Also what if the eyes malfunction? We had that happen to Zacks Deviled Xmag going into the last games at IAO then what?

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 05:14 PM

Its seems that knowledgeable minds think alike! :tard: The Level 10 will stop on a dollar bill so don't give me that crap it wont shoot tourney paint. You two guys talk alot of crap about mags. Keep it up. Won't be long now. :mad: :cuss:
Stop being an idiot and trying to start trouble! I EVEN SAID MAGS ARE NOT BAD GUNS! I'm aloud to have my opinions, and I do have freedom of speech even on a privately owned forum. I did my research, and as long as it is a US based forum, I have constitutional rights!(watch now for an abuse of power as IO get banned simply for stating my opinion...... again)

A-Tach-One

08-02-2005, 05:16 PM

Mags are not for tournies anymore, I don't care what the AO faithful preach. Great rec guns however! I have nothing bad to say about mags.
Did you mean AGD faithful, cause last I checked you seem to be a AO faithful. Maybe you should bring your disclaimer back. :rolleyes:

TheTramp

08-02-2005, 05:18 PM

Why are you always so hostile?! Damn, just agree to disagree.

Because you post some version of this in just about every thread about Mags: [mags are no longer good for anything but rec players] "I don't care what the AO faithful preach."

You know it raises the hackles of people who do use their Mags for more than just rec play so you end with a lame: "I have nothing bad to say about mags.” Then act like you don’t know where the hostility is coming from.

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 05:19 PM

OOOOO bad move. You called Tunaman an Idot not the best of moves HAHAHAHA and dont forget we have canadians on the fourm too

Lohman446

08-02-2005, 05:20 PM

Stop being an idiot and trying to start trouble! I EVEN SAID MAGS ARE NOT BAD GUNS! I'm aloud to have my opinions, and I do have freedom of speech even on a privately owned forum. I did my research, and as long as it is a US based forum, I have constitutional rights!(watch now for an abuse of power as IO get banned simply for stating my opinion...... again)

I would hope you don't get banned for stating your beleifs - but I am sure you are aware you have no Constitutional rights on a privately owned forum right? I like your opinion, I disagree with the extreme of it... but thats another story.

Factually - 99% of us have some bigger issue to work on in tournaments as long as we are shooting even a mediocre marker. Our lack of skills are the main issue, and having an uber marker wtihout skills means nothing. Maybe to the top 1% getting the "best' marker out there might be important, but I'm not part of that.

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 05:21 PM

Did you mean AGD faithful, cause last I checked you seem to be a AO faithful. Maybe you should bring your disclaimer back. :rolleyes:
Well, by AO faithful, I meant the people here that would follow any AGD product or person blindly. I remember one person who said they'd take a bullet(a bullet, not a paintball) for Tom. :rolleyes:

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 05:24 PM

ok you say they arent good turny guns well hey we had 2 AO teams useing all automags on both teams and one finishing second hmmmm mags suck dont they

onedude36

08-02-2005, 05:25 PM

Tuna wins

Mags can compete, and can compete well when you equip them right. Most people dont take that time.

By the way. why does Dynasty shoot shockers? Oh yea, SP sponsors them. Who does AGD sponsor in mainstream tournaments? Oh yea, no one any more. Could this be why almost no one in main stream tournaments shoot mags? :rolleyes:

I use my hypermag in young guns tournaments.

Chronobreak

08-02-2005, 05:25 PM

Well, by AO faithful, I meant the people here that would follow any AGD product or person blindly. I remember one person who said they'd take a bullet(a bullet, not a paintball) for Tom. :rolleyes:

..unless that person/s is posting in this thread is making those claims please dont bring blind accusations into the thread.

its your generalizations that im disagreeing with as im sure a few others are.

kinda liek your ion comments when all that was going on and now this stuff.

im srue we can agree to disagree but please be carefull of your accusations and generalizations :nono:

out[/hijack]

--edit good psot lohman, and guy above me

Tunaman

08-02-2005, 05:38 PM

Well, by AO faithful, I meant the people here that would follow any AGD product or person blindly. I remember one person who said they'd take a bullet(a bullet, not a paintball) for Tom. :rolleyes:Talk about an Idiot?! You take the cake! We don't "follow blindly". We follow the facts...all the facts that were given to us by Tom. He PROVED that most other guns suck...including your smart parts piece of crap. He showed us the tests that no other paintball gun manufacturer has shown(out of fear of being laughed at) or could prove that their marker did ANYTHING better than a mag. Want to see the proof? Want to have your brain packed with the real info you need to make educated decisions about which gun is better? Want to have so much info that is guaranteed to stop your worthless babbling? Oh. Sorry. I see you already know everything so I guess it is futile. :tard:
Oh. and one more thing. Want to put up your SP Marker and some cash(alot of cash) against one of mine? Lets see whos gun is FASTER, Lighter, Chops less, more efficient...and the list goes on. Put your money where your big mouth is... :tard:

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 05:42 PM

Talk about an Idiot?! You take the cake! We don't "follow blindly". We follow the facts...all the facts that were given to us by Tom. He PROVED that most other guns suck...including your smart parts piece of crap. He showed us the tests that no other paintball gun manufacturer has shown(out of fear of being laughed at) or could prove that there marker did ANYTHING better than a mag. Want to see the proof? Want to have your brain packed with the real info you need to make educated decisions about which gun is better? Want to have so much info that is guaranteed to stop your worthless babbling? Oh. Sorry. I see you already know everything so I guess it is futile. :tard:

GREAT POST!!! :clap:

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 05:45 PM

OOOOO bad move. You called Tunaman an Idot not the best of moves HAHAHAHA and dont forget we have canadians on the fourm too
No. I said don't act like an idiot. Big difference.
And it doesn't matter if you have Canadian posters, it only matters where the forum is based, in this case USA.

BD_Paintball

08-02-2005, 05:48 PM

They are just mad their mag is Inferior to most high-end tourney markers that cost the same amount of money

WARPED1

08-02-2005, 05:49 PM

They are just mad their mag is Inferior to most high-end tourney markers that cost the same amount of money
Yes.
AND I NEVER SAID MAGS SUCK! STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

Lohman446

08-02-2005, 05:51 PM

They are just mad their mag is Inferior to most high-end tourney markers that cost the same amount of money

This coming from the Imp>Mag... ? Come now, I know my mag cost more than a lot of high end markers - but I am just as comfortable with my mag as any marker I have ever shot, and I think right now the only high end manufactured marker I have not shot yet is a G7

Dayspring

08-02-2005, 05:56 PM

It's a privately owned forum. 1st ammendment does NOT apply.

No. I said don't act like an idiot. Big difference.
And it doesn't matter if you have Canadian posters, it only matters where the forum is based, in this case USA.

VFX_Fenix

08-02-2005, 05:57 PM

.... Who does AGD sponsor in mainstream tournaments? Oh yea, no one any more. Could this be why almost no one in main stream tournaments shoot mags? :rolleyes:

This is a valid point, however even when the E-Mag was making its rounds as a Tourney gun on an AGD team it still wasn't a very popular gun compaired to the Angel/Trix/Timmy. It could just be the area that I grew up playing paintball in, but in the last 8 years I've been playing I've only ever seen two E-Mags in person, and one of them is mine. An E-Cocker was a more common thing to see on my field than a Mag, and continues to be, even when the first E-Conversions were being done with the AC.

I'm sure in the Midwest where Automags call home the E-Mag was a reasonably popular gun, but out here in California, Mags were/are a reasonably uncommon to rare thing to see being fielded by the rec players, much less the Tourney guys.

The reason I don't believe even a Pred II E/X-Mag will make a reasonable resurgance is the gun itself just isn't popular in the tournament paintball community at large as I've experienced it.

WARPED1 is very much on the side of antagonism when it comes to the sometimes Zealous nature of some individuals on these boards. While he may be volotile, he is admittedly a needed member of this community because he calls into question some of the core dogma that resides in every owner's group. Without individuals who are willing to go against the grain of what could be called "common consensus" there is the very real possibility of a more or less healthy discusion turning into "AGD is the greatest thing ever to come across the plains" and the mindless nodding reminicent of cultism. While I'll often disagree with what he says or how he says it, his opinion is still something I'm interested in hearing (okay reading).

Every OG has the common notion that their <insert thing here> is "the best" for any number of reasons even if that reasons is "because it's the best for me". People who call into question/challenge the beliefs of others also help to reveal issues and reasons why these beliefs are held as such.

All said and done -

Yes, the E-Mag is a capable tournament gun.
Yes, the Predator board will help bring the software of the gun up to what's considered to be "required" for tournament play.
But the E-Mag will likely never see play time as a tournament gun in any event which is much larger than regional in nature for any reason barring AGD's involvment as a sponsor. The gun just isn't very popular.

Dayspring

08-02-2005, 05:58 PM

You realize that with the level 10 (and even the level 7) the on-ball pressure (the actual pressure reaching the ball) is 65psi right?

That's about what some of these other guns put out.

Perhaps getting FACTS straight would help.

I don't care about new boards, sure they keep up, but still are hard on paint. The DevilMag mod even takes out the LX to use eyes, but the gun at high pressures will destroy most tournament paint before it even leaves the breach as the paint used in tournies is usually really thin shelled.

BD_Paintball

08-02-2005, 06:06 PM

This coming from the Imp>Mag... ? Come now, I know my mag cost more than a lot of high end markers - but I am just as comfortable with my mag as any marker I have ever shot, and I think right now the only high end manufactured marker I have not shot yet is a G7

B/c it does outperform every legal mech mag, and keep up with X and E mags. And tuna my imp is faster, more efficient, chops less, and COST ALOT LESS then your mag. K thx bye

Tunaman

08-02-2005, 06:10 PM

You realize that with the level 10 (and even the level 7) the on-ball pressure (the actual pressure reaching the ball) is 65psi right?

That's about what some of these other guns put out.

Perhaps getting FACTS straight would help.You hit the nail on the head. FACTS! FACTS that refuse to be let into the minds of some who believe they know it all. FACTS that can PROVE that mags can do it AS GOOD or BETTER than most markers out there. FACTS that say BASHING MAGS ion this forum will get you BANNED! Calling mags inferior is BASHING. Stating you agree with Mag bashing will also get you banned. You two guys ready for your permanent vacation? Your unfounded, baseless, factless opinions here mean NOTHING to anyone. Have fun! Catch ya on the SP Forums...NOT! :D :clap:

Lohman446

08-02-2005, 06:10 PM

B/c it does outperform every legal mech mag, and keep up with X and E mags. And tuna my imp is faster, more efficient, chops less, and COST ALOT LESS then your mag. K thx bye

Oh... every legal mech... and every legal? electro. I see. so your imp is better than some mags...

There are a lot of high end markers out there right now. Some mags make that cut, a few select custom impulses, Shockers, Matrixes, Angels, etc.

hitech

08-02-2005, 06:12 PM

I'm allowed to have my opinions, and I do have freedom of speech even on a privately owned forum. I did my research, and as long as it is a US based forum, I have constitutional rights!

Care to share you're research? It would make interesting reading (at least I would find it interesting).

Tunaman

08-02-2005, 06:15 PM

Care to share you're research? It would make interesting reading (at least I would find it interesting).Its too late! BuHAHAHAHAHA! They wont be around to read the responses! :dance: :D

VFX_Fenix

08-02-2005, 06:17 PM

Oh. and one more thing. Want to put up your SP Marker and some cash(alot of cash) against one of mine? Lets see whos gun is FASTER, Lighter, Chops less, more efficient...and the list goes on. Put your money where your big mouth is...

Tuna throws the Gauntlet to BD_Paintball...

And tuna my imp is faster, more efficient, chops less, and COST ALOT LESS then your mag. K thx bye

And the Gauntlet has been picked-up, looks like we have a duel.

Gentlemen, if you will please state your conditions including a location and time for this matter. If you would each bring a second in the event you are unable to compete and a third party from another Owner's Group in the area of the duel shall be present to oversee this matter of honor.

minimag03

08-02-2005, 06:18 PM

If you like your E-mag then use it. Who cares what other people are using. And so what if you have to buy thicker paint, atleast it will be cheaper :D .

Caffiend

08-02-2005, 06:22 PM

I'm aloud to have my opinions

allowed. Stay in school............

*ducks back out of thread while eating popcorn and waiting for the next post*

VFX_Fenix

08-02-2005, 06:23 PM

Its too late! BuHAHAHAHAHA! They wont be around to read the responses! :dance: :D

Ummm... they can still read the forums... they just can't post if they've been banned Tuna...

Tunaman

08-02-2005, 06:26 PM

If you like your E-mag then use it. Who cares what other people are using. And so what if you have to buy thicker paint, atleast it will be cheaper :D .
That is correct thinking. All paintball guns are great. MOST of of know that. SOME of us just continue to post that THEIR marker is somehow BETTER than all the rest. MOST of us know how immature, childish, and irrellevent staing one marker is "BETTER" than another is. These people will do well in life... ;)

VFX_Fenix

08-02-2005, 06:26 PM

allowed. Stay in school............

*ducks back out of thread while eating popcorn and waiting for the next post*

Jab at the guy on the ground? *tsk tsk tsk*

Anyway, I'm glad someone's enjoying the show, this thread picked up a heap of steam in the last few hours...

Tunaman

08-02-2005, 06:27 PM

Ummm... they can still read the forums... they just can't post if they've been banned Tuna...
True. But it's kinda like reading your own name in the Obituaries... ;)

VFX_Fenix

08-02-2005, 06:32 PM

True. But it's kinda like reading your own name in the Obituaries... ;)

Oh c'mon! I've always wanted to do that!!!!

Kinda like Jonny Rico in Starship Troopers... KIA while sitting in a tank getting his leg put back together... Well... at least the IRS won't be after him anymore.

AGDlover

08-02-2005, 06:33 PM

I say not that the problems should be out of the way the thread be closed and let it be stated that no matter what gun you have as long as its leagle you can run it in a turny

Caffiend

08-02-2005, 06:37 PM

Jab at the guy on the ground? *tsk tsk tsk*

Anyway, I'm glad someone's enjoying the show, this thread picked up a heap of steam in the last few hours...

He may be losing the argument, but I don't consider WARPED1 on the ground. He may get banned (although I hope he doesn't, at least not permabanned) but I don't think he's about to give up the "fight." And yes, I am enjoying the show.

germanman

08-02-2005, 08:19 PM

HOLEEEEEEESHEEIT! I didn't mean to start the next flame war! Anywho, thanks for all the opinions, and I'm using it, weither you people like it or not :p . Anywho, I like old cars, music, and so on, so i guess i'll stick to an old school marker. I figure although enough people wouldn't use a mag in a tourney, enough people would back me up on using one. So wish me luck.

gortman44

08-02-2005, 09:49 PM

I just used my spyder mag that i finished two days before at a tourny that my team went too on sat...... i played with the stock board so i was only pulling out like 13, but that was so much faster than i was used to .. It was kicking and my team shoots 05 speed, 05 freestyle, dm4, and a ego, so you can see what i am comparing it too.... dont get me wrong, it was slower, but that was it. it was just like all of the other guns out there. we will see what the t board does that i just ordered... :shooting:

getyourgunn

08-02-2005, 11:11 PM

why dose everyone feel like they need to shoot 16bps. you dont have to shoot that fast too win.my team just got done playing in a leauge that was 8 weeks long and we played about 6 games a week and my team was playing with super old pirahnas and spyders wich were rental guns from the field i was the only person who owned there own gun (my decked out automag) and we took third out of 13 and we played against ebladed cockers,angels,ions,dm4/5's,ect its mainly skill is what im getting at.

Lightfoot

08-03-2005, 03:05 AM

i just have to say that i also enjoyed the show :D

Dayspring

08-03-2005, 08:31 AM

Good for you. When you want to play with the big boys, let us know. :rolleyes:

why dose everyone feel like they need to shoot 16bps. you dont have to shoot that fast too win.my team just got done playing in a leauge that was 8 weeks long and we played about 6 games a week and my team was playing with super old pirahnas and spyders wich were rental guns from the field i was the only person who owned there own gun (my decked out automag) and we took third out of 13 and we played against ebladed cockers,angels,ions,dm4/5's,ect its mainly skill is what im getting at.

TheTramp

08-03-2005, 10:18 AM

Yes.
AND I NEVER SAID MAGS SUCK! STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

You did say they are only good for rec play so stop pretending that you're some sort of victim.

minimag03

08-03-2005, 10:42 AM

JimmyBeam

08-03-2005, 10:57 AM

Its seems that knowledgeable minds think alike! :tard: The Level 10 will stop on a dollar bill so don't give me that crap it wont shoot tourney paint.

lev 10 is a nice thing to have but given the choice i would choose break beams.

SlartyBartFast

08-03-2005, 11:03 AM

This is a valid point, however even when the E-Mag was making its rounds as a Tourney gun on an AGD team it still wasn't a very popular gun compaired to the Angel/Trix/Timmy.

Could it be because AGD is a small company with limited resources and money and they sponsored only one team, where as Angels/Timmies/Trixes are big companies that sponsor multiple teams AND are guns that are cloned/cosmetically altered by multiple other companies that also sponsor teams? :tard:

Then, all the fanboys and fashion followers buy what their heros are playing with ehich means more of those markers in the open market as well.

How many Lamborginis do you see on the road or in races? Precious few.

Guess they just aren't good enough. :rolleyes:

Should Lamborgini sponsor race teams or lower their standards to Pontiac levels to sell more cars and be more "popular"? :nono:

Popularity does NOT equal capability. Two separate things with no connection.

SlartyBartFast

08-03-2005, 11:09 AM

lev 10 is a nice thing to have but given the choice i would choose break beams.

THAT at least is a valid reason.

But, it's a HUGE leap from there to say that anything isn't suitable for tournament play or can't keep up because it doesn't have them.

Precious little in paintball equipment is absolute. The marker, tank, paint, and player are all a package. Some equipment MAY give you a better chance at attaining some mythical level of performance, but it won't give it to you.

A great player with a mediocre setup will beat a mediocre player with an exceptional setup everytime.

A great player with an exceptional setup against a great player with a slightly less exceptional setup is more of a coin toss. The 20/80 rule. The last 20% of improvement takes 80% of the effort.

Equipment, no matter how you slice it IMO, does not make up 80% of the effort of being a top package.

Southparkrocks

08-03-2005, 11:11 AM

ICOM

08-03-2005, 11:11 AM

Nicely said nick and tuna. I have had problems with my xmag with chopping etc and almost got rid of it but i tried other markers and i still enjoy my xmag over any other gun atm. Tuna has helped me countless times to get my gun in working order and now i love it even more. A Quality Product which i am proud to shoot.

SlartyBartFast

08-03-2005, 11:22 AM

Its AGDs own fault that they have limited resources and sponsor one team, they were on top of the world just a couple of years ago along with cockers. Those angels, timmies and trixes started out as the minority, and now their the majority.

0.1% of a huge market is better than 50% of a small market.

There's no "fault".

AGD lost out on:

1 - Marketing. Gotta hand WGP the win on marketing and hype.
2 - Luck. WGP could have had their backsides handed to them on a platter by Glenn Palmer if paintball wasn't such a friendly industry in the beginning.
3 - Lack of focus. Tom is a genius. Unfortunately he's a genius with ADD and control issues. You can't be the top in one field while you're being great in many fields. Your interests can't grow by themselves if you won't relinquish some control.

But again, why do you need to be big to be good? The more cars Mercedes puts on the road the worse they seem to be....

Dayspring

08-03-2005, 11:58 AM

Tom surendered his position in paintball to work on the military contract that ended up in the FN303 Less-Than-Lethal gun.

Tough call.

SlartyBartFast

08-03-2005, 02:26 PM

Tom surendered his position in paintball to work on the military contract that ended up in the FN303 Less-Than-Lethal gun.

Tough call.

Dumb call.

Tom could have licensed the Automag, or otherwise put AGD under trusteeship while he focussed on something else. There was absolutely no valid business reason to allow the paintball business to completely stagnate in his absence.

But like other geniuses (Steve Jobs is a good example) he couldn't let go of his creation and watch it grow by itself. While Steve Jobs did let go, as soon as he was back he quickly reigned everything back to centralised control.

I hope a give no offense as I know TK only through his posts on AO, publicly known history, and his website.

But wow, I'm going off-topic....

Muzikman

08-03-2005, 02:39 PM

But you have to remember that AGD has always been a small company. And to license the Mag technology wouldn't have helped advance AGD. They spent something like 3 solid years developing the FN303 (in paintball time, that is a decade) and because of this they had no man power for R&D in the paintball world. Look at all the stuff AGD came out with in 2001...it was all a little too late.

AGD has been around for something close to 15 years.

Developed in the first 5 years:
PMI Masks
Sights
Sheridan Valves
Automag
Carbon Fiber Grip frame
Powerfeed (which for years was the feed style of choice)
Minimag
Sydarm

Developed in the second 5 years:
Automag RT

Developed in the third 5 years:
Emag
Flatline (3000 & 4500)
Warp
Level 10
Xmag
ULE Body
X-Valve
ULE Trigger

What are they develping for the next 5 years?

Pro Classic (a stainless steel bodied, stainless steel valve with a carbon fiber grip frame)...hmm, sounds like the gun they developed back in 1991.

SlartyBartFast

08-03-2005, 02:41 PM

Pro Classic (a stainless steel bodied, stainless steel valve with a carbon fiber grip frame)...hmm, sounds like the gun they developed back in 1991.

Sounds much the same as Tippmann or the venerable Cocker products from WGP.

Muzikman

08-03-2005, 02:46 PM

SpitFire1299

08-03-2005, 02:58 PM

Heres some facts-

"The air blast behind the ball after the bolt"-

60 psi for the mag and the impulse
95 pis for angel
45 for matrix (Lowest AGD Measured)
110 for autococker

Low pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in the low pressure guns by default. Best config. for fragile paint. Uses more air because the ball takes longer to accelerate. Our testing is showing that low pressure acceleration is less consistent in velocity. Longer bolt close time takes away from ball drop time.

Medium pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in markers with 4-600 psi working pressure. This still falls in the range considered to be good on fragile paint but not the best. Much better on efficiency is a big bonus. Shorter bolt close time allows for more reliable high firing rates. Faster ball acceleration is showing more consistency in testing.

My Conclusion-
Mags can be used in tournaments, and can use any kind of paint. I dont see why this is even discussed since its kind of obvious that mags can *Pretty much do anything any gun can do.

Level 10 vs. Level 7+eyes?

Either way.. there both going to be hitting the ball at 60psi.. but there are other topics discussing this.

SlartyBartFast

08-04-2005, 07:45 AM

Well, the Tippmann I agree with...but with WGP, even the POS cockers they have out now (Trilogy, etc), they are better than the stock cockers that came out between 1994-2000, they were complete crap and required so many mods to get them to work. I think this is why cockers always had the bad rep of never working.

But why is development a new product such a big goal for so many of the point on which they judge a product?

The original Automag68 needed little improvement. All the mods that aftermarket companies offered were placebos and did nothing to improve the marker.

Cocker's on the other hand needed good quality parts after market.

Why is failure to change a good product a bad thing?

Change != good.
Popular != good.
Big company != good.

Lohman446

08-04-2005, 07:49 AM

My Conclusion-
Mags can be used in tournaments, and can use any kind of paint.

Your conclusion is flawed in practice... been there

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=181106

EDIT: Note that Zacks X-mag was using level 10 with eyes and having the same issues

SlartyBartFast

08-04-2005, 07:49 AM

Either way.. there both going to be hitting the ball at 60psi.. but there are other topics discussing this.

Need to look at some other facts. The acceleration of the bolt when the trigger is released.

TK found that it wasn't necesarily the speed of the bolt breaking the chambered round that was the problem but the impact of the high velocity bolt on the lower postion of the next ball in the stack (and the ironic conclusion that much of what was given as proof of blowback was actually perhaps bobble caused by the bolt).

So no. Mags can't use any paint. With a lvl10 you shoul d be able to tune it so that brittle paint will survive...

hitech

08-04-2005, 10:05 AM

In my experience with extremely fragile paint (would break when dropped from 2 feet onto carpet) my ‘mag was at least as capable of shooting it as other markers. My buddies ‘cocker with eyes wasn’t handling it any better than my eMag with level 10.

Muzikman

08-04-2005, 10:06 AM

But why is development a new product such a big goal for so many of the point on which they judge a product?

The original Automag68 needed little improvement. All the mods that aftermarket companies offered were placebos and did nothing to improve the marker.

Cocker's on the other hand needed good quality parts after market.

Why is failure to change a good product a bad thing?

Change != good.
Popular != good.
Big company != good.

Because in this (and most industries) if you do not change, you are left behind by the newer (more modern) company.

I never said that what AGD was not good...hell I think the classic is the best gun ever made. But we have to realize, it's not what people want these days.

SlartyBartFast

08-04-2005, 10:36 AM

Because in this (and most industries) if you do not change, you are left behind by the newer (more modern) company.

I never said that what AGD was not good...hell I think the classic is the best gun ever made. But we have to realize, it's not what people want these days.

It's not what certain people want.

You are only left behind if you are beaten in YOUR market.

AGD's market is mechanicals and scenario as they abandonned sponsoring tournament and dropped the Emag.

I'd think that today's scenario and mechanical marker market is MUCH larger than the entire market back in the day AGDs ame was in the tournamnet scene.

VFX_Fenix

08-04-2005, 08:45 PM

Could it be because AGD is a small company with limited resources and money and they sponsored only one team, where as Angels/Timmies/Trixes are big companies that sponsor multiple teams AND are guns that are cloned/cosmetically altered by multiple other companies that also sponsor teams? :tard:

Then, all the fanboys and fashion followers buy what their heros are playing with ehich means more of those markers in the open market as well.

How many Lamborginis do you see on the road or in races? Precious few.

Guess they just aren't good enough. :rolleyes:

Should Lamborgini sponsor race teams or lower their standards to Pontiac levels to sell more cars and be more "popular"? :nono:

Popularity does NOT equal capability. Two separate things with no connection.

For the record, back when I started playing paintball, there were one of two guns you owned if you were a serious player; Automags or Autocockers. Prior to the electro rush AGD was huge in the industry and in speedball.

When the E-Mag was introduced AGD was already behind the times by, at the very least, 3 years. The E-Mag was released at the end of the 2001 season for tourney paintball, by that time WDP already had at least 2 versions of their Angel (LED and LCD with the LCD in its second year of production), Smart Parts had their Shocker in it's Xth revision and board, Bob Long had his second electro gun on the market, Diablo Direct was selling their e-Matrix, ICD Had their Bushmaster 2000 line well into its 5th+ generation. Autocockers had some form of e-conversion avalible to it (I remember there was a guy at the field I worked for who had this really ugly black box on the bottom of his minicocker which was part of the conversion).

Also, there were a few options you could get to "pretty up" your Mag back in the day, like the Smart Parts splash Ano kits which would replace all the non-Stainless Steel bits for instance.

Bottom line, AGD arrived late to the popular market with a product, the reasons can be found on these boards. By the time AGD arrived on the market with this new product Automags had achieved the status of "Blender" within the paintball community at large, and at the time I would have believed it seeing one Micromag in particular fail horribly in a tournament where it refused to shoot solid balls for the owner who'd been into 'Mags since I'd known him (3 years at that time).

AGD's decrease in popularity stems from many issues which many of us are painfully aware of. As Muzikman said (in a nutshell anyway, forgive the paraphrase) change or be left behind.

Slarty - AGD was beaten in it's market which is why it relegated itself to scenario paintball.

Lead - Follow - Or get out of the way.

SlartyBartFast

08-05-2005, 08:07 AM

For the record, back when I started playing paintball, there were one of two guns you owned if you were a serious player; Automags or Autocockers. Prior to the electro rush AGD was huge in the industry and in speedball.

How many serious players were there back then? How big was the paintball marketplace?

It would be interessting to know if AGD's sales were static or not. Static sales, or sales growing at less tahn the growth of the sport, would mean a lowering of AGDs profile. But that wouldn't be a bad thing for the company.

Lohman446

08-05-2005, 08:12 AM

You are all forgetting one thing though. AGD is not a publically traded corporation - it is privately held. Until lately that means as long as it did what TK wanted it to (be it what looks like "good" business or not) than it was successful. Its pretty hard for us to stand on the outside when AGD was apparently successful at selling things, innovating when TK wanted to, and profitable to TK when he wanted it to be and tell anyone it failed. It seems to me that TK succeeded at being what TK wanted it to be for as long as he wanted it to be.

21jumpstreet

08-05-2005, 08:43 AM

i will use my new emag out there. you can only shoot 15 annyway...

emags and xmags are still used. especally with the ppredator board coming out.

i <3 my emag
Who makes these ? And where can I get one ?
Thanks E- :shooting: Mag user for life......PS I play speedball tourneys and use my E-mag and we do quite nicely.......

VFX_Fenix

08-05-2005, 09:26 PM

How many serious players were there back then? How big was the paintball marketplace?

There were enough of them floating around. It wasn't uncommon to see Autocockers and an occational Automag kicking around when I started playing paintball at the fields I went to. Any given weekend when I was out playing paintball you were looking at enough guys with Cockers/Mags to play against eachother in 5 on 5+ games away from the rec ballers if the less experienced players didn't want to mix with them. Some of those guys were running remotes and T-Stocks and boy did they shoot a lot of paint. :rofl:

Back then, seemed like if you had stepped up to the Mag or the Cocker you'd somehow become an "uber player" in the mindset of most of the people I talked to. I mean, less than a year into the sport and knowing that Cockers and Mags were what the best guys used, so obviously the guys that used them must be good, right? (Back in the good'ol days when Bob Long was rockin' a Cocker).

Slowly I saw the Cockers/Mags fade from the edge of performance and gave way to a new gun that I'd only really read anything about and finally saw hanging on the wall of my local paintball shop, the Angel LED. After the first local team picked up a set of Angels the game was on and practically everyone phased out their tricked Cockers and Mags for these new super guns.

It was funny, at the time I believed that I'd never want/need an Electro, the trigger pulls were so small and light, the first time I ever shot one I almost wasn't sure I'd shot it then promptly shot the ground infront of me when I was turning the Angel over in my hands.

Anyway, I have no idea if AGD's sales have been more or less constant, but I do know that the Automag has fallen from grace, much like the Angel (though WDP is trying to make(ing) a comeback with sponsorships), in the tournament scene and I was (more or less) here to see it happen. With the Mag no longer considered widely as a "tourney gun" and no teams shooting them, I find it hard to believe that AGD has managed to maintain the sales that it saw once uppon a time in the 90's (I can imagine that AGD may be maintaining sales that would be equivalent to when they first started up but certainly not when they were at their peak).

peewee

08-05-2005, 11:27 PM

:confused: Actual Tournament ball actually makes up what percentage of the overall paintball markets money?????? It might drive a portion but lets get real!!! Kingman, PMI, viewloader & tippmann sell markers at probably a ten to one rate in comparison to the DM's, angels etc........Why does everyone around here only consider AGD successful if it is involved with tournament ball? I respect Tom for his business decisions. He did it his way. Not many of us can say that. I feel that his hardware contributions to the military & police are a far greater achievement than his paintball stuff. If can save lives. I'LL play proudly with my automag in any tournament I ever enter (if I'm playing semi, phantom if not). But hey I'm just an old timer. We are not AGD zealots as some very small minority would like the general population to believe just because we like our mags more than any other marker out there (except CCI for me = :D = ). I view those people as zealots for their own markers. My daddy always said if you dont have anything nice to say shut your pie hole!!