Can you get more anti-American? (gah this is depressing)

[NJPaint]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/transit.security.ap/index.html


NEW YORK (AP) -- Middle Easterners should be targeted for searches on city subways, two elected officials said, contending that police have been wasting time with random checks in efforts to prevent terrorism in the transit system.


"They all look a certain way," said Hikind, a Democrat from Brooklyn. "It's all very nice to be politically correct here, but we're talking about terrorism."

I love how the police and people who actually have experience in these matters are saying that it doesn't work and isn't effective and still politicians keep on a steady course that is opposing the Constitution and thus the United States. I really can't stand these people that as soon as something happens the first thing they want to do is remove the parts of the constitution that protect other people. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[edweird]

Macarthyism indeed...

but remember the politicians are instruments of the will of the constituency(and lobbyists for that matter), and are subject to review and removal.


It is good common sence to say "dont check me officer, check the raghead!" but it dont make it right or just. But that is a dead horse we are kicking.

[Yama]

maybe if the news wasn't full of "OMG terrorists, OMG OMG, terror alert set to red! ...etc." people wouldn't be so paranoid. check out the movie series 'The Powers of Nightmares' here (http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares) . some interesting stuff in there :(

[Jaan]

It's simple ... our elected officials reflect the constituency.

So, ask yourselves this: who is your State Representative? Who is your Senator? Do you have a Mayor, or Selectmen?

Now, who won the first season of Survivor?

See how it works :rolleyes:

[Target Practice]

I know who my Senators are, and they're both horribly and tragically stupid.

[FactsOfLife]

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the
following multiple choice test. The events are actual
Events from history. They actually happened!

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by

a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and
40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were
kidnapped and massacred by

a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were
kidnapped in Lebanon by:

a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown
up by:

a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked
and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and
thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:

a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and
a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was
murdered by:

a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first
time by:

a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania
were bombed by:

a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild
Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were
used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers
and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US
Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the
passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:

a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer
Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in
Afghanistan against:

a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and
murdered by:

a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

Nope, ..I really don't see a pattern here to justify
profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never
offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing
us, airport security screeners will no longer be
allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct
random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids,
airline pilots with proper identification, secret
agents who are members of the President's security
detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and
Medal of Honor winning and former Governor Joe Foss,
but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40
alone lest they be guilty of profiling.

[NJPaint]

Thank you facts for being a mindless anti-american who can copy and paste what someone else wrote. I'm sure Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kazinsky fit in perfectly with that category. I'm sure that the KKK fits in perfectly into that profile. You even have a kidnap and murder. How many kidknaps and murders are performed by blacks, white and hispanics? The point of fact is that the police and homeland security say that it isn't effective and is against the constitution and yet you still you post this mindless dribble. Thank you McCarthy, please, take your anti-american views somewhere else. If you don't like a country that protects its citizens no matter who the are or where they are from, please, by all means, go ahead and leave. Nobody will stop you. I'm not trying to force you to leave, that would be anti-american. What I am saying is that if you don't like equality, you can always leave.

[Yama]

If you were an American-Muslim between the age of 17 and 40, would you want to be profiled and searched?

[NJPaint]

I mean do I have to list for you ever single time a crime was committed by a non-Arab or non-muslim? Sounds like you are in favor of the Japanese internment and McCarthyism. To be perfectly honest, since the United States realized that what it did in those two instances were wrong, you would think that people would learn. But no, its the same thing over and over. As a part Japanese American, who's grandfather served in the US Army during WWII in Japan, I honestly think that you are hurting the United States and its ideals far more than any muslim terrorist ever could. You are denouncing the fundamentals of what it means to be an American.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

At least the Muslim extremists aren't doing the worst terrorism act possible: weakening the Constitution. That terrorist job was left up the the smarter, more intellectual of the terrorists: the rich, white, power-hungry politicians.

[SCpoloRicker]

Hey FactsOfLife:

Thanks for reposting your crap email that someone sent you. It was well-representitive of the entirety of US - Middle Eastern relations, especially in the 20th century. Now, back to NewsMax and the Post with you.

Thanks,

AO

[Eagle]

Those who would give up a little liberty for some temporary security deserve niether liberty nor security-Ben Franklin

[sbpyro]

factsoflife uses the same argument that a co-worker (who by the way is Lebanonese) uses which is "we know who the enemy is" argument.

Unfortunately that seems to be the prevailing thought here in the US. Heck I've got friends who swear by god that islam is a violent religon devoted to killing all Christians catholic whatever (sorry as soon as he started to talk religon I lost focus on the conversation.)

[wad04]

i personally believe factsoflifes post made sense (even if it was an email). Yes it is racial profiling, but the bottom line is it makes sense. Do I hate the islam relgion? no. Do i hate Muslims? no. But look at who is doing this to us, its not your average american. Its middle eastern extremists (who in no way represent the relgion of islam) that have decided to wage war on the west.
If you can justify why we need to screen children and older women, tell me right now because its not them who are killing thousands of inocent lifes around the world.

[FactsOfLife]

Thank you facts for being a mindless anti-american who can copy and paste what someone else wrote. I'm sure Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kazinsky fit in perfectly with that category. I'm sure that the KKK fits in perfectly into that profile. You even have a kidnap and murder. How many kidknaps and murders are performed by blacks, white and hispanics? The point of fact is that the police and homeland security say that it isn't effective and is against the constitution and yet you still you post this mindless dribble. Thank you McCarthy, please, take your anti-american views somewhere else. If you don't like a country that protects its citizens no matter who the are or where they are from, please, by all means, go ahead and leave. Nobody will stop you. I'm not trying to force you to leave, that would be anti-american. What I am saying is that if you don't like equality, you can always leave.


Yes, someone else wrote it. And that invalidates it exactly how?

For every Ted Kocinsky and McVeigh there are literally HUNDREDS of militant IslamoFascists that have commited acts of terror that fit this profile.

Congrats on your newly outspoken stance in defense of terrorism. Your parent must be so proud.

You are a classic example of the Useful Idiot.

Now go stand in the corner with Osama and Moore. Failure.

[FactsOfLife]

Hey FactsOfLife:

Thanks for reposting your crap email that someone sent you. It was well-representitive of the entirety of US - Middle Eastern relations, especially in the 20th century. Now, back to NewsMax and the Post with you.

Thanks,

AO


And you are who again?

This entire thread makes me happy that children like yourselves aren't in charge of public policy in this country.

Idiots.

Now I know why I took 6 months off from this asylum. The inmates are running it.

[lather]

Yes, someone else wrote it. And that invalidates it exactly how?

For every Ted Kocinsky and McVeigh there are literally HUNDREDS of militant IslamoFascists that have commited acts of terror that fit this profile.

Congrats on your newly outspoken stance in defense of terrorism. Your parent must be so proud.

You are a classic example of the Useful Idiot.

Now go stand in the corner with Osama and Moore. Failure.


Classic neo-conservative response-- accuse anyone with a difference of opinion as being a traitor!! Big thumbs up for you!! :headbang:

By the way hope you feel the same about Carl Rove.

Instituting profiling and anything else that compromises American ideals, freedoms and the American way of life means the terrorists are winning.

[Yama]

Now go stand in the corner with Osama and Moore. Failure.

At least they stand up for what they believe in. Our gov. doesn't seem to be.

[FactsOfLife]

Classic neo-conservative response-- accuse anyone with a difference of opinion as being a traitor!! Big thumbs up for you!! :headbang:

By the way hope you feel the same about Carl Rove.

Instituting profiling and anything else that compromises American ideals, freedoms and the American way of life means the terrorists are winning.


The lol. I knew the pseudo-libs would come crawling out from under their rocks the minute I shoved reality back in their faces.


Carl Rove huh? Yeah the FACT that Joe Wilson outted his own "undercover" wife on his website YEARS before this nonsense got started means nothing to you.

Man you liberals were practically wetting yourselves over this weren't you. Shame that yet again, the truth of the matter is worse for the lying Joe Wilson, than it is for the hated Karl Rove. You guys thought for damned sure you had "Bush's Brain" all tied up and on his way outta DC. Nice try, you don't get your quarter back though.

Yes let's not institute profiling. Let's let any Middle Eastern looking person on any airplane, subway, bus, ferry or whatever with no checks in the name of social justice! YAY Political Correctness wins again!

Better yet, let's take your insane thinking one step further. Let's TELL them we aren't going to do any searches whatsoever. Think that'll get 'em to stop wanting to kill every man, woman, and child in this country? Are you that naive? Are you that stupid?

You liberals are a neverending source of entertainment. Why, the amazing hypocrisy alone makes listening to you worthwhile!

As for my leaving, seems to me you libs are doing all the *****ing here, better that you should pack up for France, or better yet, Barcelona Spain. I hear they're bending over backwards for the terrorists, just like you are.

[FactsOfLife]

At least they stand up for what they believe in. Our gov. doesn't seem to be.


Yeah flying a couple of our jets into the Trade Centers is something I'd like to associate my belief system with...


go you....

[Jaan]

If you can justify why we need to screen children and older women, tell me right now because its not them who are killing thousands of inocent lifes around the world.Because if you screen everyone BUT them, then they will be the next terrorists.

Religion is a drug, and is particularly addictive to youngsters and old people. Plenty of 10 year olds carry AK-47's in the middle east. Also, younger children could be used as couriers too without even knowing it. How many crack dealers stash their drugs in a baby diaper? Why should someone be left alone because they're old? I guess you've never met a seriously racist 85 year old Jesus freak. All some crazy old lady would need is a vial of smallpox and her place in the afterlife would be assured :rolleyes:

Islam is just the brainwashing God lets me kill cult of the day. Quite frankly any religion, or idea for that matter, could be corrupted by a few fruit loops. Should we harass anyone with a tie dye because of Charles Manson?

[Jaan]

Yes, someone else wrote it. And that invalidates it exactly how?

For every Ted Kocinsky and McVeigh there are literally HUNDREDS of militant IslamoFascists that have commited acts of terror that fit this profile.Hang on, I thought the ones who have actually commited an act of terror blow themselves up in the process, how can there be any left? Are you sure you're not talking about the Irish?

[spantol]

Why does this matter? When the Fat Aryan Procrastinators Front gets around to knocking a building down, I'll understand some additional diligence being thrown my way.

In the mean time, if you're going to search at all, it makes sense to concentrate on those matching a profile. Pattern recognition is one of the most basic survival skills, political correctness be damned. The world ain't all rainbows and bunnies.

On the other hand, I'd love to see some evidence that these searches are accomplishing anything. Is there any documented evidence of an action being thwarted by this or a similar policy, or are its proponents making the awe-inspiring logical leap that the mere act of searching is itself a deterant? 'Cos if they're not effective, I'd kinda like to have my 4th amendment back.



If you were an American-Muslim between the age of 17 and 40, would you want to be profiled and searched?

[spantol]

Should we harass anyone with a tie dye because of Charles Manson?

Anyone with tye-died clothing should indeed be harassed, though not necessarily because of Charles Manson.

[drg]

On the other hand, I'd love to see some evidence that these searches are accomplishing anything. Is there any documented evidence of an action being thwarted by this or a similar policy, or are its proponents making the awe-inspiring logical leap that the mere act of searching is itself a deterant? 'Cos if they're not effective, I'd kinda like to have my 4th amendment back.

Or worse yet, could it be pushing people closer to extremism than they might otherwise be? For example, the Iraq war has been shown to be doing just that, despite what its proponents claim about its effectiveness.

[slade]

If you were an American-Muslim between the age of 17 and 40, would you want to be profiled and searched?
if you are a 15 year old american-indian who was a citizen of the united arab emirites, would you want to be the only one stopped and questioned in an airport on a school field trip that had its OWN PLANE?

yes that happened, my best friend is an indian who was born in the united arab emirites and he is not a US citizen as of yet. ive been on four plane flights with him so far and he has been the only one stopped and questioned (like where are you from, where are you going, why are you traveling, etc.) even though our school had a private plane, he goes to our school, and is in the middle of a huge group of kids his age. and this is just because of his race, he dresses just like anyone else and speaks english perfectly. and i was absolutely fine with security, even though im the one dressing in all black, sunglasses and baggy pants, and i set off the alarm about 4 or 5 times before being able to go thorough successfully. and yes, my friend WAS quite a bit upset with it, because hes lived here as long as i can remember and hes still not accepted/trusted, at least in airports.

[spantol]

That's the real problem with profiling--many of the profilers are stupid. Don't blame the methodology for the shortcomings of the execution.


if you are a 15 year old american-indian who was a citizen of the united arab emirites, would you want to be the only one stopped and questioned in an airport on a school field trip that had its OWN PLANE?

[lather]

The lol. I knew the pseudo-libs would come crawling out from under their rocks the minute I shoved reality back in their faces.


Carl Rove huh? Yeah the FACT that Joe Wilson outted his own "undercover" wife on his website YEARS before this nonsense got started means nothing to you.

Man you liberals were practically wetting yourselves over this weren't you. Shame that yet again, the truth of the matter is worse for the lying Joe Wilson, than it is for the hated Karl Rove. You guys thought for damned sure you had "Bush's Brain" all tied up and on his way outta DC. Nice try, you don't get your quarter back though.

Yes let's not institute profiling. Let's let any Middle Eastern looking person on any airplane, subway, bus, ferry or whatever with no checks in the name of social justice! YAY Political Correctness wins again!

Better yet, let's take your insane thinking one step further. Let's TELL them we aren't going to do any searches whatsoever. Think that'll get 'em to stop wanting to kill every man, woman, and child in this country? Are you that naive? Are you that stupid?

You liberals are a neverending source of entertainment. Why, the amazing hypocrisy alone makes listening to you worthwhile!

As for my leaving, seems to me you libs are doing all the *****ing here, better that you should pack up for France, or better yet, Barcelona Spain. I hear they're bending over backwards for the terrorists, just like you are.


Lol! Im as moderate as they come, anyone that doesnt agree with you is automatically a Liberal huh??

Keep painting yourself into a corner.


Sorry you cant accept the fact that sometimes traitors are conservatives too. I dont blame you, after years of name calling and questioning people's patriotism of those that dont agree with ya, it can be quite disconcerting to have a traitor in your own ranks.


Im sure you also would be fine with painting the word MUSLIM on all Muslim owned shops in the US too.. I know! How about we paint a symbol on them too, so the average American can spot a Muslim much more easier! :tard:

Its just a shame you have no respect for the ideals of freedom, and liberty.

[Destructo6]

The point of fact is that the police and homeland security say that it isn't effective and is against the constitution and yet you still you post this mindless dribble. Thank you McCarthy,
What is constitutional and effective may be two entirely different things. What they say is, "not effective" may simply be a smoke-screen for what is effective, but unconstitutional.

ive been on four plane flights with him so far and he has been the only one stopped and questioned (like where are you from, where are you going, why are you traveling, etc.) even though our school had a private plane, he goes to our school, and is in the middle of a huge group of kids his age.
Immigration checks at a Port of Entry (POE) are 100% reasonable for anyone not a US citizen. It is the stock and trade of all CBP officers. And yes, the US has a right to inspect, remove, deport, etc any non-citizen.

[Jaan]

It's ironic ... I'm sitting here digesting the extremist viewpoints I've read so far, and the more I think about it the more I believe that white right wing conservative creationists *should* be searched too :D

They teach eeeeevolution at that there pinko liberal Harvard school ... praise Jeeeeeeeeesus! <boom>

[spantol]

One incendiary topic per thread, please.

[Rooster]

"I'm sure that the KKK fits in perfectly into that profile. "

So you are saying every member of the KKK is a terrorist? Aren't you doing exactly what you said was unAmerican?

[wad04]

and please just tell me why racial profiling is a bad idea? Will it make a certain amount of people unhappy? yes. But will it most likley protect the united states from another attack? possibly.
And stop telling me old ladies, and innocent children are going to attack the united states.

[Army]

Been there, seen it, dodged the mortars.

I now look at ALL middle-eastern looking people with suspicion.

Wring your hands, cry about how terrible the US is, but remember that others are doing for you what needs to be done to keep you safe.




BTW, lets keep it civil, or I'll close this one quick, fast, and in a hurry.

[Jaan]

and please just tell me why racial profiling is a bad idea? Will it make a certain amount of people unhappy? yes. But will it most likley protect the united states from another attack? possibly.
And stop telling me old ladies, and innocent children are going to attack the united states.I'm just curious, why didn't you respond directly to what I said? If you think kids could NOT be used as couriers for terrorists like they ALREADY are being used by drug dealers, and if you think that somehow being old makes you less likely to have extremist views ... then please tell me why.

Where would you draw the lines? Are children OKay, but you would still search baby cartridges? Are white women over the age of 70 OKay, but you would search old men? What about old women with brown skin?

[slade]

And stop telling me old ladies, and innocent children are going to attack the united states.
what about that 15 year old kid on a school field trip, he looks pretty sketchy... :ninja:

Rooster - while i dont want to get into an argument, the KKK is an organization based largely off of racism, discrimination and hatred, while a skin color, race or nationality is something you are born with. and while religion is a choice, i dont know of any one that directly supports terrorism.

[wad04]

children haven't been used to attack us, nor have old people. thats what i mean.

as to a 15 year old being searched, i've seen plenty of sketchy 15 year olds.

[rehme]

first they attacked the Constitution by pen then they attacked it by eraser. i really dont care what they do untill they try to take my rifle. go check out www.infowars.com also go check out the quotes at www.hk91.com how can our leaders be that unamerican.

[Target Practice]

Good.

[NJPaint]

"I'm sure that the KKK fits in perfectly into that profile. "

So you are saying every member of the KKK is a terrorist? Aren't you doing exactly what you said was unAmerican?

Are you saying that all members of Al Qaeda are terrorists? I think they are. If you believe that violence is the correct way to show your hatred for a certain race or religion, then yes, I would group them together.

[NJPaint]

Been there, seen it, dodged the mortars.

I now look at ALL middle-eastern looking people with suspicion.

Wring your hands, cry about how terrible the US is, but remember that others are doing for you what needs to be done to keep you safe.




BTW, lets keep it civil, or I'll close this one quick, fast, and in a hurry.

I am thankful for everything that the US armed forces do for me and this country. But if you are asking me to accept your self admitted biases against an ethnic group, I'm sorry, but I can't do it. Everyone has prejudices, and I accept that. I am the same way. I am human. But to flat out say that one ethnic group is better than another or to treat them as any different than anyone else is flat out unamerican.

[Kai]

It would be pretty anti-American if you took a flag and peed on it, and then said that America was for suckers, and then said that democracy was for gay people, and then beat up the president, and then moved out of America.

I'm not sure if it's more anti-American than the situation you described though. I guess that's for the courts to decide, really.

[NJPaint]

Ah, courts SHOULD decide that, but if the courts say something different than the old interpretation, its considered judge "activism".

[Kai]

Ah, courts SHOULD decide that, but if the courts say something different than the old interpretation, its considered judge "activism".

Oh, nevermind then. I take back all of my previous comments.

[Target Practice]

Rock on, Kai.

[maxama10]

Just get a bunch of bikini models to do the searches.

"Ooh Oooh! Pick me! Pick me! I need a good frisking! You can racially profile me anytime, baby."

Problem solved. See how easy that is?

amen ;)

[oldsoldier]

Well, its too damned PC to "randomly" search people these days. Last I looked, it wasnt the 80 y/o lady, or the 9 y/o kid that piloted the two planes. nor did they do the London bombings. Get over it. They were middle eastern. Will it offend people? Yup. Will it possibly prevent another hit against us? Moreso than searching a 9 year olds teddy bear will. I am all for the profiling. Its about time someone steeped forward and said "look, these "random" searches arent random, when we are deliberatley NOT searching people of mideastern descent, for fear of bad PR". Oh well. Welcome to OUR Jihad.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

This is one of those subjects with no good solution.

Army: I have nothing but respect for anyone who puts themself in harms way in order to insure my safety, I also have nothing but regret for all the people in the world who are stepped on daily by those of us who want more of everything. I think the condition Iraq is in is tragic. In fact I think the condition most of the world is in is tragic.

I do my best not to judge, if I don't have all the facts I try not to express an opinion, because I would merely be expressing the opinion of someone with more T.V. face time than his opponent.

If Racial Profiling is the answer by all means do it, but don't hide it like it is some family secret. Doesn't that seem like a good way to deter todays terrorists? Search every individual of Arab decent. But I want equality, next time some middle aged white guy starts eating his neighbors, or blowing up buildings I want every middle aged white guy in the country searched and tagged.

If we are going to live in a quasi-totalitarian environment it makes much more sense to just go all the way and live under an iron fisted dictatorship. If we are trying to actually live in a "Democracy" (I think its just an ideal like communism, or the golden rule), lets set aside our bigotry and hate and actually do it.

I think we need to define "American" before this goes any further.

[NJPaint]

Well, its too damned PC to "randomly" search people these days. Last I looked, it wasnt the 80 y/o lady, or the 9 y/o kid that piloted the two planes. nor did they do the London bombings. Get over it. They were middle eastern. Will it offend people? Yup. Will it possibly prevent another hit against us? Moreso than searching a 9 year olds teddy bear will. I am all for the profiling. Its about time someone steeped forward and said "look, these "random" searches arent random, when we are deliberatley NOT searching people of mideastern descent, for fear of bad PR". Oh well. Welcome to OUR Jihad.


This is the thing... Nobody has ever said that random searches are good. This isn't a This or That decision.

[slade]

If Racial Profiling is the answer by all means do it, but don't hide it like it is some family secret. Doesn't that seem like a good way to deter todays terrorists? Search every individual of Arab decent. But I want equality, next time some middle aged white guy starts eating his neighbors, or blowing up buildings I want every middle aged white guy in the country searched and tagged.
but wait, middle aged white guys are the voters, and THEY dont want to be searched...

[Steelrat]

Its real easy to talk about "rights" and "values" when its not your kids, family members, and friends being blown up and murdered. I'd be willing to bet money that people would change their tune if an attack struck a lot closer to home.

If Muslims want to prevent backlash against them and their religion, they better step up efforts to reform their religion.

[Eagle]

If Racial Profiling is the answer by all means do it, but don't hide it like it is some family secret. Doesn't that seem like a good way to deter todays terrorists? Search every individual of Arab decent. But I want equality, next time some middle aged white guy starts eating his neighbors, or blowing up buildings I want every middle aged white guy in the country searched and tagged.


Don't Mcvey and Dahmer fall into that catagory?



Listen folks, there is NO perfect answer. This a damned if you damned if you don't type situation. The people who are getting searched, whether it's random or selective are going to ***** about it. Trust me, after 4 years of guarding a nuclear submarine, both home and abroad, in peace and war, in green zones and war zones, after conducting both random and selective searches, there is no perfect answer. If we don't search, and nothing happens, then everything is alright. If we search and find something, then we've done our job. If we don't search, and something happens, we screwed up. If we search, and don't find something, but something happens, then we screwed up. The problem is, we won't know untill it is to late. And then people will *****. Damned if you do damned if you don't. There are valid arguements on all sides. The constitusion gaurentees peoples rights, but it is not a suicide pact. The fact is that we are in a world war right now, and no one wants to bring back the systems of political, economic, and martial programs that helped us to win in the past.

[NJPaint]

Its real easy to talk about "rights" and "values" when its not your kids, family members, and friends being blown up and murdered. I'd be willing to bet money that people would change their tune if an attack struck a lot closer to home.

If Muslims want to prevent backlash against them and their religion, they better step up efforts to reform their religion.

I watched the 2nd plane hit the WTC. I had 6 close friends who lost parents. My neighbor's husband was killed on the 96th floor of tower 2. I stood on the palisades overlooking the city and watched the burning buildings. I had teachers that left for the day to man their ambulance crews in Manhattan and watched them break down in class after what happened when they tried to relay what it was like there. All in all 13 people that I knew died on 9/11, 3 of them were relatively close to me, although none of them a relative. I saw the pain, I saw the frustration, I saw the anger, first hand. I witnessed my church come together as it never had before. I saw Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics and Asians stand together in solidarity after the attacks. Don't tell me that its "real easy" to talk about rights and values. I was brought up as an American. I was born and raised in St. Louis, MO. I was taught to honor and respect our veterens and our men and women in arms. I was taught to respect our flag and I was taught to respect and admire the country itself, how it was founded, and why the constitution is so powerful as a living document. I'll be damned if you people want to destroy what the United States stands for. Time after time in US history have people said that we have needed to forsake our constitution and our liberties. But nobody seems to remember what happened afterwards.

I have never met an Arab or a Muslim (I worked in an arab community) that has ever complained about being searched. Every single one of them has told me, if it costs me 2 minutes of my time to keep this country safe, it is worth it. They take the attitude of JFK, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". I share their view. All they ask is that while this happens they are treated with the respect and dignity that they deserve as American citizens. What they don't want is blind hatred and suspicion because of their race, ethnicity, skin color or religion.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

children haven't been used to attack us, nor have old people. thats what i mean.

as to a 15 year old being searched, i've seen plenty of sketchy 15 year olds.

Children have not been used to attack the USA, or any Western country (AFAIK), but the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka use children as suicide bombers. From what I've read, they invented the whole suicide bomber idea, so it's not unreasonable to think that children may be used by other extremists in the future.


... to flat out say that one ethnic group is better than another or to treat them as any different than anyone else is flat out unamerican.

Historically, racism is as American as apple pie or baseball. American laws have discriminated against blacks, natives, hispanics, Chinese and Hawaiians.


I have no problem with racial profiling. I accept and understand that it might be humiliating on a personal level, but we all need to realize that this sort of thing is done to protect everyone, including the innocent people being searched.

[Chris42050]

All this searching of people at Airports is a joke anyway. It won't stop an attack. The only thing it does is give the American citizen the illusion of saftey. If people want to hijack planes again they will. All random searches do is take more of our freedom away for the illusion of safety. I am sick of the politicians and media making more of these terrorist attcks then they are and making everyone so scared that they give away thier freedoms so quickly and easily for a little feeling of security. Many Americans needs to grow some balls and stop giving away our freedoms that were fought so hard for and this counrty was founded on.

[MadPSIence]

And you are who again?

This entire thread makes me happy that children like yourselves aren't in charge of public policy in this country.

Idiots.

Now I know why I took 6 months off from this asylum. The inmates are running it.

FactsOfLife - Don't even bother with the idiot. He can't reply with anything but flaming crap to anyone's posts he doesn't whore-heartedly agree with.

[rehme]

"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety."

-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[MadPSIence]

"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety."

-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

yeah because national security in 1759 had an even microscopic resemblance to it's form and importance of the modern day?

just because you can quote big ben franklin doesn't mean it's very relevant to modern day.

[SCpoloRicker]

I am thankful for everything that the US armed forces do for me and this country. But if you are asking me to accept your self admitted biases against an ethnic group, I'm sorry, but I can't do it. Everyone has prejudices, and I accept that. I am the same way. I am human. But to flat out say that one ethnic group is better than another or to treat them as any different than anyone else is flat out unamerican.

*golfclap*

Well stated.

[MadPSIence]

*golfclap*

Well stated.

almost. profiling has nothing to do with one enthic group being better than another. peole that care more about their 2 minutes than their country simply act like martyrs and try to make it look like the system is based purely on prejudice and not on reason.

[NJPaint]

FactsOfLife - Don't even bother with the idiot. He can't reply with anything but flaming crap to anyone's posts he doesn't whore-heartedly agree with.

Please leave the personal attacks out of this thread. You heard Army, keep it civil, discussing politics is one thing, leving personal attacks is way out of line, here at least.

[NJPaint]

almost. profiling has nothing to do with one enthic group being better than another. peole that care more about their 2 minutes than their country simply act like martyrs and try to make it look like the system is based purely on prejudice and not on reason.

I never said that profiling was the same as racial superiority. I was countering someone elses comments that stated that they treat people differently based on their race.

[MarkM]

yeah because national security in 1759 had an even microscopic resemblance to it's form and importance of the modern day?

just because you can quote big ben franklin doesn't mean it's very relevant to modern day.
Whilst you might be correct in modern day transference of morals and ideals plenty of times the American Constitution is cited as being a perfectly good document for todays society despite the passages being written over 200 years ago, so attacking someone for reading Benjamin Franklin isn't the smartest thing to do.
I get searched going onto American planes as part of this random search pattern...I am White and over 40...which part of the profile do I fit? I travel both alone and with members of my team so there isn't any pattern there.
This thread btw is getting very close to being closed so all participating in it think at least twice before you hit reply to any of the posts. Keep it civil in both your replies to each other together with the content of your reply and it will continue.

[NJPaint]

MarkM sent you a question via PM.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

yeah because national security in 1759 had an even microscopic resemblance to it's form and importance of the modern day?

just because you can quote big ben franklin doesn't mean it's very relevant to modern day.

Frankin's principles are still relevant today, but I don't think they are necessarily relevant to this particular case. Nobody has to submit to these searches. You can always choose to NOT get on the airplane.

[Army]

NJPaint. Yes, I am prejudiced against one race. That race that has sworn to kill all infidels in accordance with their religion.

Not all mid-east people are Muslim, so obviously some have the same beliefs as I. Regardless, there is no other race that has sworn to kill all the non-muslims.

When I find out that the Malaysian in line is also Muslim, my experience says "watch him like a hawk". If I found that ignorant white boy from Marin county (that's a very liberal area of San Francisco) in Afghanistan, I would have boxed his ears, called him stupid, and tossed him into Gitmo personally......if I hadn't shot him already.

Nope, not racist, but REALIST.

It wasn't the All Canadian Molson Drinking Team that killed over 3000 in 2001.

[NJPaint]

"That race that has sworn to kill all infidels in accordance with their religion." You are talking about a very small section of Muslims. Should we start considering all Christians terrorists for bombing abortion clinics next?

"there is no other race that has sworn to kill all the non-muslims", I don't get it. So you believe that Muslims all want to kill non-muslims? Last time I checked there are certain Jews that think the exact same way about Muslims. Oh wait, just today 4 Arab Israelis were murdered by an Israeli soldier. I guess since this guy claimed that his religion supported him, all Jews are terrorists!

Link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/04/bus.shooting/index.html


There are always extremists in a religion. Heck the KKK even claims Christian origins. Do you support their activities over the last 50 years? This was all in accordance to their religion. They are a small sub-sect of people who categorically hate all non-whites. Very similar to Al Qaeda in that they hate everyone that isn't like them. Neither of them represent entire races.

[NJPaint]

racism n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.



You said yourself that you are prejudiced against a race, the dictionary definition of racism. One can not categorically say that an entire "race" is sworn to destroy everyone who isn't like them. It is simply not true. You focus on only the extremists and can not see that there are other people other than them in the race. Just like some french conspiracy theorists can't see past George Bush and see America for what it is.

[Jakedubbleya]

.....I stared into the wonder of the Warrior Jesus Christ
And destiny was burning in his eyes.

Chorus:
He said, do you really believe in Freedom ?
I said, I do
He said, oh, what about me ?

And the Sandinista said, do you really believe in Freedom ?
I said, I do
He said, oh, what about me ?

And the man in Cuba said, do you really believe in Freedom ?
I said, I do
He said, oh, but what about me ?

And in Baghdad he said, do you really believe in Freedom ?
I said, I do
And he said, oh, but what about me ?

-Kris Kristofferson

:( :headbang:

[SCpoloRicker]

Jeez, Army you should probably head over to the bar if you're gonna play like that.

And yes, madPSIence quoting Franklin makes one totally out of touch with what this country (should be) all about. Stupid Franklin, with his views on seperation of church and state, skepticism of government, and progressive ideas.

/someone else quoted you sweetie ;)
//hates the "new" Republican party

[oldsoldier]

Muslims way of life is "Inshallah". They accept what happens, and follow orders. The vast majority (overseas, in the mideast) are fundamentalists...the very ones that are against us. Dont fogrget; they have no legitimate news agency, newspaper, etc. Everything they recieve is onesided. Yes, that happens here too; but, we are far more educated than them, and are (well, some of us) able to form our own opinions. Besides, our media isnt controlled by the government, and we cdan watch CNN, BBC, Itar Tass, hell, Al Jazeera should you so choose.
I second army's statement about watching mideasterners closely. To kill someone based on their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, is being racial. To actively engage in protecting yourself and your countrymen by targeting a certain sector of the population based on their ethnicity, is, unfortunately, reality. You can idly sit by, and wait for it to happen again, or take a stand, as unpopular as it may be. Myself, I prefer to stand.

[Jaan]

Well, its too damned PC to "randomly" search people these days. Last I looked, it wasnt the 80 y/o lady, or the 9 y/o kid that piloted the two planes. nor did they do the London bombings. Get over it. Why were those terrorists able to get into the cockpit in the first place? Because the doors were not locked. Why? Because nobody ever did it before. No, I won't get over it because it's plainly dumb not to try to prevent a foreseeable action because it's never happened before. Israel had armored locking doors on their airplane cockpits years before 9/11 ... we should have seen this coming.
They were middle eastern.Not all terrorists are of middle eastern decent. Some would be welcomed with open arms by the KKK. Some have red hair and freckles.
Will it offend people? Yup. Will it possibly prevent another hit against us? Moreso than searching a 9 year olds teddy bear will.Like terrorists have NEVER planted a bomb onboard an airplane. Let me let you in on something ... if you stop searching any package for any reason, THAT'S where the bomb will be.
I am all for the profiling. Its about time someone steeped forward and said "look, these "random" searches arent random, when we are deliberatley NOT searching people of mideastern descent, for fear of bad PR". Oh well. Welcome to OUR Jihad.OKay, let me get right to the point that everyone seems to skate around while talking about racial profiling. We're talking about treating people with brown skin differently than anyone else.

So, in your American Jihad, what "traits" would you consider middle eastern? Should officials carry around color charts with the various shades of brown so we can tell who "they" are? What about the shape of the nose, or the eyes? Black curly hair? How about body odor? What if the person was only half "middle eastern" and ended up with fair skin and hair, should they have to wear a brown diamond on thier clothes? And one more thing ... how the hell are you going to be able to tell the difference between a middle eastern fellow, and a hairy Itallian with a tan?

:rolleyes:

[NJPaint]

The vast majority (overseas, in the mideast) are fundamentalists...the very ones that are against us.


Excuse me? Do you not realize the entire inaccuracy of your statements? Let me clarify. Saddam was not a fundamentalist. He was extirely secular and thus why we supported him against Iran. He was NOT a FUNDAMENTALIST. Do you even know what it means to be a fundamentalist? It has NOTHING to do with hating the United States. It has NOTHING to do with terrorism. It is strict conections between the church and state allowing the church to control what the state does and enforcing islamic law. "vast majority" are fundamentalists, please provide us with any proof whatso ever. Please, share.

"The very ones that are against us" Last time I checked we were fighting Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is an extremely small group smattered over several countries. They do not represent nations and they are hated by many Muslim governments. The war in Iraq was not fought against fundamentalists. It was fought against a secular, extremely repressive ruler. Our number one ally in the area is Saudi Arabia. THEY are hard-line fundamentalist. Please, do your research before you spout terms that you don't know or understand!

[Jakedubbleya]

So, in your American Jihad, what "traits" would you consider middle eastern?

accent, facial features, skin tone, clothes. :D

yes, there are other terrorists in the world besides those of middle eastern descent (i saw team america thank you very much) but short fat koreans are quick and they can fit under door jams so theyre pretty much a lost cause. we've got to put our efforts, where they can yield results!

[drg]

If Muslims want to prevent backlash against them and their religion, they better step up efforts to reform their religion.

If Americans want to prevent terrorism against them and their religion, they better step up efforts to reform their religion. Be it Christianity, conservatism or the general worship of the almight dollar.

But seriously, wake up. Imposing reform on a religion from the outside is begging for more trouble. How do you think religious wars get started in the first place? Or wars in general? Do you enjoy Muslim extremists' attempts to reform American capitalism?

[lather]

Correct me if Im wrong but arent the peoples from the Middle East considered Caucasian? Remembering back from Anthropology class in college but was so long ago.

[drg]

NJPaint. Yes, I am prejudiced against one race. That race that has sworn to kill all infidels in accordance with their religion.

Not all mid-east people are Muslim, so obviously some have the same beliefs as I. Regardless, there is no other race that has sworn to kill all the non-muslims.

When I find out that the Malaysian in line is also Muslim, my experience says "watch him like a hawk". If I found that ignorant white boy from Marin county (that's a very liberal area of San Francisco) in Afghanistan, I would have boxed his ears, called him stupid, and tossed him into Gitmo personally......if I hadn't shot him already.

Nope, not racist, but REALIST.

It wasn't the All Canadian Molson Drinking Team that killed over 3000 in 2001.

This makes no sense whatsoever. You're discussing race and religion with absolutely no consistency, yet you feel your views are good enough to be universal guidelines, even for yourself personally?

It is rarely useful to stereotype. Ex-military types have bombed American federal installations, assassinated an American president, and sniped innocent Americans on highways and at gas stations. Should we view all such people with such background with similar suspicion? After all, they can get around in the US much more easily and have loads of training in killing.

Ever consider that your attitude toward Muslims is part of the vicious cycle? A loudmouthed bigot is much more likely to get into conflicts and be involved in violence on a day-to-day basis than a tolerant, humble person. That interpersonal dynamic works on the global scale as well.

[Jaan]

Correct me if Im wrong but arent the peoples from the Middle East considered Caucasian? Remembering back from Anthropology class in college but was so long ago.Is that what they tought you in that thar fancy college?

Yeah, isn't it funny how racial superiority kinda falls apart when you start examining the evidence and see that people moved all over and pretty much everyone is the same. Racial lines get blurry when you look at them too close.

I wonder if Jesus will be searched when he rises again lol.

[drg]

I wonder if Jesus will be searched when he rises again lol.

Dude, that is a genius thought ... makes me think of a bumper sticker that NEEDS to be made.

[oldsoldier]

Excuse me? Do you not realize the entire inaccuracy of your statements? Let me clarify. Saddam was not a fundamentalist. He was extirely secular and thus why we supported him against Iran. He was NOT a FUNDAMENTALIST. Do you even know what it means to be a fundamentalist? It has NOTHING to do with hating the United States. It has NOTHING to do with terrorism. It is strict conections between the church and state allowing the church to control what the state does and enforcing islamic law. "vast majority" are fundamentalists, please provide us with any proof whatso ever. Please, share.
Afghanistan, fundamentalist regime. syria, fundamentailst regime. Lebanon, fundamentalist regime. Yemen. fundamentalist regime. FYI, the vast majority of insurgents in Iraq arent Iraqi. Iraq, up until the mid 80's was the most progressive nation in the mideast. The Jihad being waged against us is being supported by the fundamentalists. Period. That was my point.

[NJPaint]

Afganistan fundamentalists, we put them there and supported them. Saudi Fundamentalists, we support them and are best friends with them. Since when have we been at war with Syria or Lebanon? Since when were we at war with Yemen? Individual citizens yes. They did come from those countries. But some of them also came from the US. So I guess we must be at war with the United States! Oh wait... Thats ourselves... Fundamentalism has nothing to do with terrorism, opression, genocide, ethnic cleansing. Absolutely. But the same can be said about the fundamentalist Christians in this country.

These are extremists. Just because a country has a fundamentalist dictatorship doesn't mean that the entire country is fundamentalist... Please, move beyond your stereotypes of what Arabs and Muslims are.

[NJPaint]

The Jihad being waged against us is being supported by the fundamentalists. Period. That was my point.

Last time I checked the Saudis are considered to be the most represive and the most fundamental, even more than Iran right now. And they are our best friends in the region. Last time I checked NONE of the nations that you mentioned voices support for attacks against the United States. THAT is my point. Fundamentalist once again are people who believe in hard-line religion. We have a lot of those in the US as well. Why did we go into Iraq? Because of WMD? (wait where are they?) Because he was a fundamentalist and he hates us? (wait he isn't a fundamentalist and he was fulfilling the might makes right quota by invading kuwait) Because of his ties to 9/11? (wait, there were no connections whatso ever).

[drg]

Dude, that is a genius thought ... makes me think of a bumper sticker that NEEDS to be made.

Here's a quick first draft. I don't like the wording, anyone come up with something punchier?

http://tinypic.com/a0ctci.jpg

[Army]

Hmmm...happened sooner than I hoped. The Jesus shots simply pushed it over guys (you can see where that was going to go), sorry.

But I will get the last word:

I've been there, seen it, lived among it, was targeted because of it, and have earned the right to be suspicious of those that I feel can/will be dangerous to my country, family, and way of life. As a race of peoples, Islam commands every minute of their lives, which ties religion and race in my earlier post.

Whining about what we search, or who, or when, will simply allow more time for the very bad people to kill more innocents. The free world needs to get it's act together last week, tomorrow is already too late.

Read up on the 3 former Crusades, and compare them to now......it's #4.