Lvl 10, ULT, and X-valve Problems

[nak81783]

I've tested like crazy, browsed the forums, and called AGD's tech support and can't figure out my Mag's problem. Please help.

The setup:
~X-valve
~ULT
~Lvl 10
~ULE Body
~Intelliframe
~PMI 68/3000 fixed
~All of this is thrown onto a Classic Automag rail...that's what the gun originally was

The problems:
~Inability to tune Lvl 10 to be gentle on paint
~Barrel leak

Notes:
~ULT pin is .737"
~Lvl 10 bolt meets the length spec described on installation cd that comes with the Lvl 10 kit in the troubleshooting section. (I can't remember what the number is right now)
~0.5 carrier, short gold spring, and two shims in Lvl 10
~2 shims in ULT
~I've checked, oiled, and replaced just about every o-ring in the valve, Lvl 10, and ULT

What I've tried and results (that I can remember):
~To stop the barrel leak, I gradually downsized carriers until the leak stopped. Unfortunately, the leak is sporadic. It stopped with a 1 carrier, but then started again after 20 shots or so. I currently have a .5 carrier in, but the same problem exists. The leak just isn't as bad as with a larger carrier. The leak comes and goes. When I push the bolt in, the leak stops, but then resumes once I let go.
~I've tried just about all combinations of springs and carriers, but the Mag still chops paint when velocity is around 280-300fps. When I load a ball half in the chamber and pull the trigger, it's a mess.
~Safe velocities can be achieved with the short gold spring. I put the middle red spring in and velocity was at or above 300fps when the marker started shooting reliably.

Questions:
~What should the ULT pin length be? I've seen the posts on this, but my question is what determines the specification? The valve? The rail? A combination of both? With the information that my marker is an X-valve on a Classic Mag rail, what should the length be? If I need to change it, how do I separate the halves of the ULT pin and what do I used to seal them back together?
~What else can I try to stop the bolt leak?
~What else can I try to get the Lvl 10 to be easy on paint?

Etc.:
~I put a Lvl 10 in the Classic valve that was originally on the marker and had it working beautifully. Things started going awry when I bought an RT Custom and swapped parts to put on my Mag. (I just never really liked the looks of the RT's)
~I'm not sure where the problem is. Valve? ULT? LvL 10? A combination of them all?

I love my Mag and will never give up on it. The only reason I don't want to send it in is because the Tech said I've tried everything he would. I don't see the logic in sending it in and having them do what I've already done.

I look forward to hearing your responses.

Thanks,
Nathan

[Tunaman]

Well the way I see it, you may just need some different ;evel 10 orings. There was a batch of exceptionally large ones that were even too big for the 0 carrier. You also need to get the shims out of the L10 and install the stock on/off to determine if the ULT is acting up. The ULT pin size is supposed to be .740 so you are close there. The high velocity issues with the small spring may be caused by dirt on the reg seat or a bad reg seat oring. Let us know. ;)

[Tunaman]

Well the way I see it, you may just need some different ;evel 10 orings. There was a batch of exceptionally large ones that were even too big for the 0 carrier. You also need to get the shims out of the L10 and install the stock on/off to determine if the ULT is acting up. The ULT pin size is supposed to be .740 so you are close there. The high velocity issues with the small spring may be caused by dirt on the reg seat or a bad reg seat oring. Let us know. ;)

[nak81783]

I've replaced the reg o-rings, cleaned them, oiled them, etc. I will reconsider looking at those once I've tried your other suggestions.

Safe velocities can ONLY be achieved with the SHORT GOLD spring. The middle red and long silver/grey are at or over 300fps when they start shooting reliably.

I will try removing shims from the LvL 10 and see how that affects the system.

I will also acquire new LvL 10 o-rings to try. That would be my luck that I got the oversized ones.

I do not have an original on/off. I ordered the RT custom with the ULT installed. Is there a starting point for the ULT that I can use, so I can rule out the ULT as the problem?

I will be on vacation starting Thursday and over the weekend. I may be able to get to it Wed, 8/24, otherwise it will be next Monday, 8/29.

I will keep you posted. Thanks for your help.

-Nathan

[AGDlover]

reg seat- Replace the oring this is the oring causeing volis. spikes

I say try a smaller carrier to see if that doesnt stop the leak. The LVL10 and ULT were finiky(sp) together from what I understand.

And if you want replace orings in the lvl10 but i think a carrier should do the trick ;)

[nak81783]

Thank you for your input.

I've tried just about all carrier and spring combinations. I also tried swapping o-rings that were broken in from one carrier and switching them to the new carrier that I was trying. In addition, I put in new o-rings in all the carriers I've tried.

The o-rings on both sides of the brass reg seat holder have been replaced.

My velocity isn't really spiking or eradic. It just starts at 300fps or above when I put in anything stiffer than the smallest spring and get the gun to shoot reliably...as in not chuffing every 2nd or 3rd rapid shots.

-Nathan

[nak81783]

Here's an update:

I removed the two shims from the Lvl 10. That didn't seem to make too much of an improvment. Leaving the Lvl 10 shims out, I starting adjusting my ULT. I put all 5 shims in that it orignally came with, and there were problems. Easily short-stroked and not shooting reliably...shot, chuff, shot, chuff. I then went to the other extreme with no shims. The gun would not fire. One shim recharged extremely slowly. Two shims worked ok, which is what I had been running. Three shims seemed to work the best. I tried four shims and it started approaching what five shims did.

I had two paints to test. Allstar and Karnage midgrade (can't remember if it's Bite or Tear) were the paints I had. I got the gun to shoot around 275-280 (local field limit) reliably using the RT Chrono procedure outlined by AGD. I then partially chambered balls and tested the Lvl 10. The Allstar cracked and made a mess, although no complete chops occurred, after one or two pulls of the trigger. The Karnage took hit after hit without breaking, chopping, cracking, etc.

The odd thing is my Autococker shot the Allstar fine. I had a few chops, but those were due to me short stroking the marker.

I didn't get a chance to test other springs. The above was done with the short, gold spring. Velocity was stable over my radarchron. I also didn't get a chance to order/request new Lvl 10 o-rings.

I'd still like to get the Lvl 10 softer. Even though it didn't break on the Karnage, I'd like it to be able to hit at least once on the Allstar without cracking it.

I'm still awaiting a response if I should purchase an original RT Pro on/off to see if it's my ULT causing problems. I would like to avoid this if possible.

The leak didn't happen too often, but it's still there. Could be the o-rings, but I'm concerned it's somthing with the bolt. How do they seal the part that is press fit into the larger diameter of the stem? How could I separate them and what should I use to reseal it?

Thanks for reading my book. I look forward to hearing everyone's input.

-Nathan

[athomas]

The bolt itself is a nonmaintenance item. It is pressfit together. Don't take it apart. The only spot for air to move while at rest is out through the vent hole which is normally held behind the carrier oring. Too many shims will/can move the carrier oring back to expose the vent hole which can cause a hiss down the barrel.

When you are changing carriers, make sure you use the same o-ring each time. Different o-rings in different carriers may cause the same results in both cases. Always check carrier sizing without the shims as you are now doing.

If the bolt only shoots below 300fps with the short spring, then the pressure on the ball should be minimal and chops should not occur. However, if the carrier o-ring is too tight, the force required to start the bolt is higher. Once the bolt starts moving, it will usually move freely, but the higher force can chop and will also cause higher velocities. It appears that this may be the case with your setup.

[nak81783]

Thank you for your input.

I have been using the same o-ring for each carrier. The only deviation to this was changing the o-ring to see if that in itself was causing the leak.

I am aware that I shouldn't have to mess with the bolt. However, I had a bolt separate on me. The smaller OD part came out of the larger OD part. I cannot remember if it was the Lvl 10 bolt on my Classic valve or the bolt that is on my current marker. That's why I was asking about the repair methods.

I understand that the smaller carrier will require more force to start the bolt, which may be why I still chop paint. However, if I go up in carrier size, I get a barrel leak. I'm caught between a rock and a hard place...barrel leak or chop paint. I will try to play with it again next week to see if stepping up the carrier size reduces force on the bolt. However, I'm predicting that the slow leak will require me to raise pressure to make up for the air that is being lost.

Thanks,
Nathan

[athomas]

Try changing the sear. If the sear tip is worn, the bolt will sit farther forward and expose the vent hole. This could cause your continuous leaking. It may be right on the edge of the oring which allows a tight oring to stop it. However, the tight oring is probably too tight and restricts the operation.

[nak81783]

Thank you for your input.

I actually recently purchased a new sear. I used my old one to convert an E-frame for a Spyder to work on my Mag. I didn't care for the results, so I had to purchase a new sear to go back to using my Intelliframe.

I will add your suggestion to my list and see if the local shop has a sear they'll let me throw in for a test. This actually coincides with another post I had on the leak that seemed bumper related. Taking the bumber off allowed the bolt to sit further back, so it made a better seal. Obviously, I didn't want to keep the bumber off, so I had to put it back on to keep my valve from being damaged. Leak resumed.

I'm beginning to think I just have some parts that don't pass a tolerance stack up. I'll start swapping things out the next chance I get and see how things go.

Thanks,
Nathan

[nak81783]

OK, I'm just more confused now.

I tried a new sear. That didn't help.

I tried new carrier orings. That didn't help.

I sat down and just thought the whole situation over. The more I think about it, the more I think this was this Lvl 10 bolt that separated. At that time I just press fit the parts back together. I'm pretty sure that's when problems started. I'm thinking it didn't make a good air-tight press fit. When I gas the marker up, it leaks...most likely through the press fit. When I blow backwards into the bolt, a seal is made. This seems to be due to the fact that when air is flowing as it normally does, the leak is beyond any orings. However, when I blow backwards into the gun (while it's degassed of course) a seal is made. There is nowhere for the air to go when air flows backwards and a good seal is made around the foamie end of the bolt.

I think I must have bent the bolt when I press fit the parts back together. A non-loctited (sealed) bolt or a misaligned bolt would explain the sporadic leak and maybe even the hard-on-paint Lvl 10. Trying to separate them again in order to loctite for a better seal was disastrous. I bent it even worse trying to get them apart. It won't go into my powertube and I don't want to force it.

I need to get a hold of a new bolt to see if this theory is correct. $40 + shipping is a little steep for me right now though.

Anybody happen to have an extra Lvl 10 bolt laying around? :)

What's really confusing me is that when I put my old Lvl 7 system in just to have something to run with, that leaked as well. I tried every spacer from .215 to .235. I tried two different orings, oiling them very well before putting them in.

What's going on? Is my powertube out of tolerance?

Please advise.

Thanks,
Nathan

[nak81783]

I got a hold of AGD. I ordered a new bolt for obvious reasons, 2 white carrier orings just in case the mutiple groups of orings I had are all from that bad batch Tunaman spoke about, and a Lvl 7 bolt stem oring just in case the ones I have are out of tolerance. I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks,
Nathan

[athomas]

A new bolt may be a good idea, especially since yours had come apart before and you were having alighnment issues.

[nak81783]

OK, my parts came in today, and I spent about 3 hours fiddling with my Mag. Long story short, I fixed the leak. For some reason a 0.5 carrier stopped the leak, but carriers 0 and 1 allowed a leak...wierd. There was also a small leak at the little black oring inside the ULT. No more leaks. One mission objective is complete.

Unfortunately, I still couldn't ease the force of the Lvl 10 on paint. It still repeatedly pinched and bounced off the Karnivore midgrade, but broke Allstar on the first pinch every time. I'm gonna try some Evil soon, so we'll see if that works better. I guess some chop protection is better than none.

I still can't get my blasted Lvl 7 to work though (for backup purposes). I went through every spacer again with the new stem oring I just purchased. No improvements; it still leaks terribly.

What else can make a Lvl 7 leak beside the bolt not seating on the oring? I looked up the diagram to make sure I assembled it correctly since it's been so long.

Powertube <-- stem oring <-- spacer <-- Lvl 7 powertube tip w/ locking oring

Any ideas on the Lvl 7 leaking or the Lvl 10 being hard on paint are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Nathan

[athomas]

The level 7 leak will probably stop if you use a shorter powertube spacer.

Now that you got all the leaks topped and everthing is the correct size, lets figure out your antichop problems. You need to be by a chronograph. Start with the middle bolt spring and the velocity adjuster turned down. Gently turn up the velocity adjuster until the gun fires. Check the velocity over the chrono. Ideally this velocity should be about 20 fps below where you want your gun to normally be shooting (eg. If you want to shoot 280fps, then the gun should be able to shoot down to about 260fps before it doesn't shoot any more). If the velocity where the gun starts to shoot is down around 240 or 250, then go to the next longer bolt spring. It will bring the starting velocity up to a higher level. Maintaining this 20 fps buffer allows your gun to operate consistently and also to be gentle on paint because a 20fps difference means the bolt force on the ball is very gentle.

[nak81783]

I put a .215 spacer (smallest of the kit) in the powertube for the Lvl 7, and it still leaked terribly. Where can I get some shorter ones? I'll see if I can have some made up in the mean time.

Anyway, yeah I did all of what you suggested for the Lvl 10 last night. The short gold spring was rough on paint but fired at all desirable velocities. I then moved up to the middle red spring. This one started shooting at about 270 fps. Local field limit is 280. However, when I put paint in it, it bounced off of a FULLY CHAMBERED ball. I couldn't believe it. It must be on that fine line, and simply hitting the ball puts it in the no-fire zone. I didn't bother with the long silver spring. However, I did have a filed down silver spring in between the lengths of the gold and red ones. That gave the best results as listed in my previous post. I'm still not where I want to be though. I'll try filing my other long silver spring when I get time.

I just can't believe there's that much gap between the short gold and medium red springs. One is tough on paint but hits the velocities I want. The other is excellent on paint, but can't achieve the velocities I want.

Thanks,
Nathan

[athomas]

You are on the right path. If you have a cut middle spring that operates at too high a velocity, then cut a tiny bit more off. Keep doing this until you achieve the operation you want. Always put the cut edge of the spring towards the bolt.

[nak81783]

I used the Mag a little this weekend. It shot decent. I'll keep tinkering as time permits.

Somewhere in all of this testing/fixing/tinkering I lost my rail bushing. That probably explaines the Lvl 7 leak. The wall thickness of that bushing is probably somewhere around 0.030 or more, which is more than the gap in all the spacers I have (.215-.235). It would allow the bolt to sit that much further forward (or valve back farther, however you want to look at it) when the marker is pressurized, causing the leak. The rail bushing is being ordered tomorrow. I'll update when I can.

Thanks,
Nathan

[nak81783]

As assumed, the rail bushing fixed the Lvl 7 problem. I can now run the Lvl 7 without problems.

The Lvl 10 still isn't where I want it. I will use it this weekend to see how it shoots. Hopefully, I'll have some paint left over to tinker with it some more if it doesn't run up to par this coming weekend.

Thanks,
Nathan

[nak81783]

I used the Mag this weekend and put a case through it. I heard the Lvl 10 pinch/vent two or three times, and I didn't have any chops or breaks all day. I think I'm just gonna leave it alone until I start having problems again. Hopefully, that never happens.

Thanks for all of your help.

-Nathan