Is Agd Going Bankrupt?

[Jester of Spectre]

i have heard several rumors from dealers down here that have claimed that agd was going out of business and i was curious if there is any truth to this

[Apple_Pie]

Well, AGD isnt at the top anymore, but I dont think they are close to out of buisness. Quite a few XValved markers are still being sold. And vavles are really their big income because their is no aftermarket for them. But with no new releases, they are headed toward it. I doubt they will let it get that far.

[1337caesar]

what I have heard so far is that AGD is a small company that is trying to stay in bussinus until smartparts' patent claims can be verified. They do not have the resources to fight them in cort and therefore are coasting along until the time comes when the smartparts patent that killed the production of Emags is defeated by some large company with many resources. They are not going bankrupt but they are not activly marketing their products until such time as they feel they can do so without legal problems.
However airgun is still a major contributor to the rec ball market with their supirior mechanicle markers.

[rx2]

I thought that company went out of business years ago...

Dealers say a lot of things. I have been hearing every year for the past five years that AGD is going out of business. I suppose that one day it will come true, and then they will say "see, I told you so." In the meantime, though, I wouldn't worry too much.

[onedude36]

Its been said for years now. hasn't happend yet. It's like the apocolypse.

[Kevmaster]

AGD is going nowhere. it will be here in 20 more years.

its doing just fine.

[MadPSIence]

I'm just wondering what resource they have to pay their staff anymore.....

[peewee]

I believe that they still have that Leprechaun locked up in the basement, he is the true driving force monetarily & he provides the "magic" that makes the mag work....... :D If AGD was to go under they would be straight up with everyone & announce it. Bankruptcies are public record so if they had filed it would be fairly easy to find.

[TMAXXKING1]

WOW ...

let's see nothing from agd has really changed

so then the cost to make product wouldnt go up too much

besides the cost of material

no need for R&D one big cost gone

Tom own's the right's to the valve so no out of pocket on that ..

seem's to me there isnt any middle man digging in Tom's pocket's


so it would be down to the cost of material's
anno
and labor for the people at agd aka in house to build a marker put it in a box and ship it out ..



so my guess is tom just got tired of the B.S in the paintball world

and beside's he's kinda old ...





i dont see agd going any where for a long time


UNLESS

Tuna, Rogue,Colin,Classicmagger,GA devil , Coolhand and even luke with the stuff they all make and sell call it quit's

AGD WILL BE AROUND FOR A LONG TIME

I HOPE THEY TAKE GOOD CARE OF THERE WORK HORSE'S

outside of AO the mag seem's to be dead to most of the world...

also who give's a flying gerbal turd what people have to say about a company ..

all shop's are dead right now

lil kiddie's going back to school

college kid's would rather have beer money .. then play paintball

just my thought's :cheers:

[LONEWOLFOO1]

it seems that they are doing well in the scenario market people are going crazy over the tac one. espcially with the langbow crossbow kit. i have more fun playing in the woods and much cheaper!!!!

[warbeak2099]

AGD is being sustained by the rec and scenaio markets. Just because they've left the tourny scene doesn't mean they are going out of business. People don't seem to realize that there are other markets than tourny ball.

[Cow hunter]

look at all the companies that use AGD as the base gun..... like the new logic grip and the devilmag...... this might b a good sign cuz companies sell the whole gun fer just a bit more.......

[Muzikman]

AGD will survive. They have reduced their staff. They have started to clear out old stock that has already been paid for, so anything they sell is revenue.

People have to remember that just because fields don't carry guns or parts doesn't mean they can't survive. AGD has always been a small company and they had to start thinking like a small company. But just because a company is small does not mean it can't survive or that it can not make a good product. In the paintball world, take a look at Palmer Pursuit Shop. Small company, been around for years, besides some cocker front ends, they do not make a product that you can find parts for at the local field and they are doing just fine.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

AGD is being sustained by the rec and scenaio markets. Just because they've left the tourny scene doesn't mean they are going out of business. People don't seem to realize that there are other markets than tourny ball.

agreed tourny is not the only thing out there look at tippmans you think those guys are loseing money?

[Jester of Spectre]

agreed tourny is not the only thing out there look at tippmans you think those guys are loseing money?

tippman has walmart lol agd does not actually unless you have seen a mag you prolly have never really heard of them thats the diff in tippman and agd dont take this the wrong way i have always been a mag fan i have shot them for years and i know personally they are great markers i was just wondering what the deal was with the company cause the last thing i want to see is them go out of business

[Lohman446]

tippman has walmart lol agd does not actually unless you have seen a mag you prolly have never really heard of them thats

Considering AGD was one of the two BIG companies in the 90s I have a hard time beleiving that as many people have never heard of them as is rumored... I think thats an AO myth.

That being said - the neat thing about niche companies is you do nto have to sell a million units to succeed. You might measure success in something other than $$ but you can have sucess

[AGD-OfficeGal]

i have heard several rumors from dealers down here that have claimed that agd was going out of business and i was curious if there is any truth to this

JoAnn who worked here for what, 13 years?, said that this rumor had been going on almost as long as she had been here. I've been here over four years and have been fielding this question the whole time.

Those dealers may honestly have heard the rumor from someone else but have they bothered to check it out? No - they'd rather talk you into buying a marker they already have in stock. Maybe one that you'll have to replace again next year. Okay, I said MAYBE. I swear some of these dealers must have been saying this same thing for the past 12 years or so, too.

I haven't missed a paycheck and neither has anyone else here. :clap:

Course if anyone wants to help out, the thing to do would be to go back to a dealer who has rumorized us and say "Well, AGD is doing just fine and since you don't sell their stuff, I won't be shopping here for my marker after all." ;)

Marcia
AGD-OfficeGal

[xsiegex]

When I first got into paintball, it wasn't until 4 years of playing that I finally saw an Automag or heard of one. All my buddies and I used the Tippmann flatline and when one of our friends felt like we needed to have our asses handed to us, he pulled out the Automag :shooting: .

[frop]

Considering AGD was one of the two BIG companies in the 90s I have a hard time beleiving that as many people have never heard of them as is rumored... I think thats an AO myth.

That being said - the neat thing about niche companies is you do nto have to sell a million units to succeed. You might measure success in something other than $$ but you can have sucess

I've met plenty of people who don't know what the hell my gun is, but then again most seem like they are relatively new/young compared to those who do know.

I'm gotta remember to take a tour when I'm back in Chicago. :cheers:

[Jester of Spectre]

i have owned 3 mags and swore by them for a long time..............and still do for a woods ball gun im just trying to get to the bottom of the rumors that i have heard about the company that really got me in paintball

[peewee]

I guess I am lucky in a way. I live in one of the automag strongholds two of the three local shops usually have mag parts on hand at all times. Both store owners are mag users & owners. :D :D

[benhmn]

Well, I visited AGD a week or two ago (I only live an hour away) and I met the secretary, the president, and the guy in the back. So it's not like there's a lot of overhead to maintain :p .

[Doobie]

Oh god. Not this.














again! :(

[Target Practice]

Oh god. Not this.














again! :(

Amen to that.

[BobTheCow]

I believe that they still have that Leprechaun locked up in the basement, he is the true driving force monetarily & he provides the "magic" that makes the mag work....... :D If AGD was to go under they would be straight up with everyone & announce it. Bankruptcies are public record so if they had filed it would be fairly easy to find.
Elves!

THE ELVES!!

Has EVERYBODY forgotten about the magical elves?!? Jeeeeeeez...

[warbeak2099]

If I won the lotto I'd probably donate some money to AGD and/or buy them the rights to make electros from SP. Lol, seriously. But they're doing fine right now. They are selling the stuff that they make. That's all that matters. I'm just saying, if I won the lotto I'd donate tons to AGD's R&D lab hehe. WHEN that heppens, just name a product after me guys... something like, "The Pete-Mag" hehe.

[Fred]

its not like Paintball is all they do guys.... :rolleyes:

[riooso]

I, like many people, hope not! I have noticed a lot of NEW Mags at the field I play at. I think that when the rubber meets the road most people, that do not play speedball, look at mechanical markers and come to the Mag conclusion. They are just "I get to play paintball today" reliable. I read a post a long time ago from Tom where he stated that they could do well just from the replacement and upgrade parts.

RioOso

[SCpoloRicker]

Elves!

THE ELVES!!

Has EVERYBODY forgotten about the magical elves?!? Jeeeeeeez...

Sssh... the gnomes are asleep and we're stealing their closed bolt range!

[Skoad]

going bankrupt and going out of business are 2 totally different things.

I highly doubt AGD has any outstanding debt so I doubt bankruptcy is in their future unless they really decide to do some massive "new" product line

[peewee]

Yea they are tired of beating the coin out of the Leprechaun in the basement.

[Scott Hudnall]

There's a lot to be said about being a strong "niche" company.....strong and dedicated following, excellent product, excellent service. Scenario also appears to be a growing market that AGD is well positioned in. So...AGD....live long and prosper!

Now...you guys quit this silly thread and start a thread on why paint is to expensive. Why can't we buy quality paint at $20 a case?

[Doobie]

Why can't we buy quality paint at $20 a case?

'cause paint companies don't do it for free. I'm actually kinda happy with paint prices. I used to pay $150 a case back in the day. Heck...try $1.50 a tube of ten!

With the massive amounts being shot now, I agree it could come down a little.

[warbeak2099]

The mark up on paint is astronomical. It coudl come down a little. At least $10-15 a case would be a nice reduction. And it would be totally doable for the dealers and the manufactorers.

[Recon by Fire]

I think the shops that claim AGD is going under only such because they don't carry Automags and just want to direct your purchase interest to what they have in shop, as Office-Gal stated. When they say this your brain should just register "I run a cheap knock off shop with cheap guns at top prices, buy from me today and I can sell you something else new in a few months".

Not carrying AGD is one thing, saying something malicious is another...

[warbeak2099]

Just tell those shiesters to go pee on the subway tracks. I know, I know, it's an urban legend but hey...

[Resurection]

Just tell those shiesters to go pee on the subway tracks. I know, I know, it's an urban legend but hey...

Subway tracks might be, but electrified fences are NO legend, I can swear to that, and I did swear then too.

[Miscue]

Old rumor... like how AGD used to make nail guns... or the Mag is based off of a nailgun design. :p

[overkill8000]

im so tired of hearin bout this, not to be mean or nutin. but yes they are i just bought 2000 stocks of it off ebay for a nickel a piece. j/k na there gonna be around for ever ( nock on wood)

[cyprinus]

Well I have some very big doubts here.

Two months ago I ordered some much needed parts for my Mag through the Automag-UK online store. Not a word, mail or product since... And believe me I've tried to mail them all; Airgun-UK, Airgun-US etc. No responce whatsoever! :cuss:

About 6 months ago I got my orders just fine (a little slow only).

Bad thing is I need the parts!!!

I don't want to change to another platform but without parts I cannot use the Mag anymore. This is a sad thing... :cry:

Are there some insiders here who can explane this to me?

[Raven001]

I'm no insider but if you need parts, Tunaman has one hell of a rep for being quick on his feet and his prices are better than what I can get in Canada (even with duty).

[FreakBaller12]

I'm no insider but if you need parts, Tunaman has one hell of a rep for being quick on his feet and his prices are better than what I can get in Canada (even with duty).
haha, you said...duty!
ewww!

[GoblinGreen]

Well I have some very big doubts here.

Two months ago I ordered some much needed parts for my Mag through the Automag-UK online store. Not a word, mail or product since... And believe me I've tried to mail them all; Airgun-UK, Airgun-US etc. No responce whatsoever! :cuss:

About 6 months ago I got my orders just fine (a little slow only).

Bad thing is I need the parts!!!

I don't want to change to another platform but without parts I cannot use the Mag anymore. This is a sad thing... :cry:

Are there some insiders here who can explane this to me?

I have ordered a load of spares from Tunaman and some great upgrades from themagsmith.com, I live in South Africa and there aint no spares over here unless you bring them in yourself, My local shop does bring in RT parts kits on request but it take months.
I used to order my spares from Airgun.co.uk, order your stuff straight from the states.

Make sure when you order you think of the future, so order 20 bumpers and 2 rt parts kits etc... I have a spare of everything and I managed to make my Emag brand new again, except for the board which is still 1.37 (come on TAG gimme the predator :shooting: )

Order from Tunaman, think he is very busy though so place your order and be patient it will arrive. There hasn't been one automag spare he couldn't find for me. tunaman5@comcast.net
(except a z-grip for the old style RT)

[BigEvil]

I dont think AGD is going anywhere... as more and more companies are going out of business the more I think that AGD's strategy is smart.

[cyprinus]

I have ordered a load of spares from Tunaman and some great upgrades from themagsmith.com, I live in South Africa and there aint no spares over here unless you bring them in yourself, My local shop does bring in RT parts kits on request but it take months.
I used to order my spares from Airgun.co.uk, order your stuff straight from the states.

Make sure when you order you think of the future, so order 20 bumpers and 2 rt parts kits etc... I have a spare of everything and I managed to make my Emag brand new again, except for the board which is still 1.37 (come on TAG gimme the predator :shooting: )

Order from Tunaman, think he is very busy though so place your order and be patient it will arrive. There hasn't been one automag spare he couldn't find for me. tunaman5@comcast.net
(except a z-grip for the old style RT)

Thanks for your answers everyone. I guess I'll go and start mailing Tunaman then. I've visited the other webshops like airsmith but they don't seem to sell the original parts I'm looking for.
I would hate to say goodbye to my just (almost) completed X-mag.

But I still think it is very strange for a so-called 'alive & kikin' company to have what seems a radio-silence around their webstores...

[Resurection]

But I still think it is very strange for a so-called 'alive & kikin' company to have what seems a radio-silence around their webstores...

Well to speak on behalf of Tuna, he just experience a server failure and his website is down, but not out. If you browse over to www.tunamart.com you can email him from there. The new site and store will be up soon.

[Muzikman]

I'm not sure what the status of AGD-UK is, but I know about a year or so ago they took over as NPS-UK (or something long those lines) so I am not sure how involved they are with AGD stuff any more.

If you need parts, call Marcia at AGD-US (I know it will be long distance) and she'll take care of you. I don't think the AGD-US web store can ship overseas.

Marcia = 1+ 847-520-7507

[phantomhitman]

Old rumor... like how AGD used to make nail guns... :p

So i should take the 3 shims i put in mine out? I swear I got it to go over 20 nps but couldnt hold it at that speed. I guess I need to call Zak........chronoing seems to be aproblem also :D

[Big'n slo]

So i should take the 3 shims i put in mine out? I swear I got it to go over 20 nps but couldnt hold it at that speed. I guess I need to call Zak........chronoing seems to be aproblem also :D

Your using the wrong nails!
You need MAG nails

http://www.engineersupply.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=ES928

That'll solve the chrono problem :p

[FromTheBack]

Ive seen this kind of thread pop up about three times or so while I've been shooting a mag and the company has seemed the same every time I read it. But I might as well toss my input in for the first time. Last year at a scenario game a group of AOers were talking with him and he said that AGD had been "in the black" for a while as far as profit was concerned. This was right before he resigned and right at the time of the FN303 killing that girl in the riot. So take it as you will.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

i think agd is doing fine i always wonder since their guns has one moveing part that the never made a gun that had a built in warp feed, or a built in q loader they can easliy make a m4,mp5,p90 look alike there parts ae top notch. i feel they should sta focus in the scenrio market. it is a growing market. its actually takeing some of the fire out of airsoft. i would love to see agd make a m4 powered by agd. becusethose oher companys use the spyder technology.

[Aslan]

JoAnn who worked here for what, 13 years?, said that this rumor had been going on almost as long as she had been here. I've been here over four years and have been fielding this question the whole time.

Those dealers may honestly have heard the rumor from someone else but have they bothered to check it out? No - they'd rather talk you into buying a marker they already have in stock. Maybe one that you'll have to replace again next year. Okay, I said MAYBE. I swear some of these dealers must have been saying this same thing for the past 12 years or so, too.

I haven't missed a paycheck and neither has anyone else here. :clap:

Course if anyone wants to help out, the thing to do would be to go back to a dealer who has rumorized us and say "Well, AGD is doing just fine and since you don't sell their stuff, I won't be shopping here for my marker after all." ;)

Marcia
AGD-OfficeGal

Very well said.

Unfortunately, the two shops near me aren't carrying very much AGD stuff. One carries almost primarily cockers...the other carries a mix of stuff...they have one classic mag on the wall...but they've really been heavy in Tippmann high end stuff and Tippmann sponsors alot of their games and field stuff.

Even though I think it's just a rumor, it is a concern. I'd just hate to get another mag or invest alot into it only to have AGD pull a "Brass Eagle" and make it almost impossible to get parts/upgrades. Actually, that's what I really like about Mags right now is the parts and upgrades are plentiful...whether directly from AGD, AO, Ebay, or other internet sources. Other than maybe Kingman, I can't think of a company that invests so much in helping people fix/upgrade markers that may be 5-7 years old. Alot of companies want you to ditch that "older version" to get their new, electric, annodized, robotic, bionic, phat, agged, silly 2006 model that is guranteed to fire at 36bps.

A couple other things from posts...I appreciate that AGD still pays attention to scenario/woodsball players...many companies have forgotten us.

As to Scott's paintball pricing post...nobody is asking for paintballs at $25 a case...but $40 would be nice...and no I don't want Brass Eagle paint...but I also don't need paint with pictures of naked ladies on them or etched with my team name. As to the people who say they gladly pay $120/case because they used to pay $150...you must be paying in Canadian or something...no paint is worth that much.

[peewee]

We can regularly get paint for $35 to $45 a case . But you get what you pay for in the $35 range.

[11 Bravo]

Thanks for your answers everyone. I guess I'll go and start mailing Tunaman then. I've visited the other webshops like airsmith but they don't seem to sell the original parts I'm looking for.
I would hate to say goodbye to my just (almost) completed X-mag.

But I still think it is very strange for a so-called 'alive & kikin' company to have what seems a radio-silence around their webstores...


I regularly order from AGD and have had no problems or delays. I have also seen plenty of AGD parts on the Airsmith website. Maybe you just missed them.

[MadPSIence]

if anything, AGD's customer service is as good as ever. They aren't flooded or busy so I've found they take great care in doing business prompt and well. I got 2 long emag screws (sounds soo dirty) in 1 week from ordering. I'm in Canada and had it sent regular snail mail.

[Lohman446]

The mark up on paint is astronomical. It coudl come down a little. At least $10-15 a case would be a nice reduction. And it would be totally doable for the dealers and the manufactorers.

?? I take it you have inside knowledge of that? Because I know what my field pays for paint (shipped) and what they sell it for... I don't think its that bad.

[Aslan]

?? I take it you have inside knowledge of that? Because I know what my field pays for paint (shipped) and what they sell it for... I don't think its that bad.

The only inside knowledge I have is that the same paint that used to be $39.99/case when the field I go to was BYOP is now $59.99/case. It's decent paint...it's just another $20 and you have no choice but to buy it.

I actually like to try different kinds of paint. It ain't that the field paint isn't good...it is...but I like trying different kinds of paint at fields...to see how different paint acts and to see how different paint/gun combinations or paint/barrel combinations work.

Fields say it's for "insurance reasons"...but that's garbage. It's money...selling 60 cases a day vs. selling 7 cases a day. What fields take for granted is that the people will still come...sometimes that's a correct assumption...sometimes not. One local field changed to BYOP because people just stopped going there. Another field changed to field paint only...probably because they felt they could suffer losing a few people compared to the extra money they'd get from the paint.

[Pouget]

Why is airguns in court with smartparts??

What's with the patents?

[11 Bravo]

I think thats all over now.

[Lohman446]

The only inside knowledge I have is that the same paint that used to be $39.99/case when the field I go to was BYOP is now $59.99/case. It's decent paint...it's just another $20 and you have no choice but to buy it.

I actually like to try different kinds of paint. It ain't that the field paint isn't good...it is...but I like trying different kinds of paint at fields...to see how different paint acts and to see how different paint/gun combinations or paint/barrel combinations work.

Fields say it's for "insurance reasons"...but that's garbage. It's money...selling 60 cases a day vs. selling 7 cases a day. What fields take for granted is that the people will still come...sometimes that's a correct assumption...sometimes not. One local field changed to BYOP because people just stopped going there. Another field changed to field paint only...probably because they felt they could suffer losing a few people compared to the extra money they'd get from the paint.

The price is an isolated incident. What ballers seem to misunderstand is that. well they want better and better facilities they also want cheaper and cheaper prices. We do not have a paintball "behometh" company yet that can offer, due to immense scale, the best prices and the best facilities. Well not always the case fields prices reflect the type of services and facilities they offer.

[MarkM]

Well I have some very big doubts here.

Two months ago I ordered some much needed parts for my Mag through the Automag-UK online store. Not a word, mail or product since... And believe me I've tried to mail them all; Airgun-UK, Airgun-US etc. No responce whatsoever! :cuss:

About 6 months ago I got my orders just fine (a little slow only).

Bad thing is I need the parts!!!

I don't want to change to another platform but without parts I cannot use the Mag anymore. This is a sad thing... :cry:

Are there some insiders here who can explane this to me?

As you are Dutch the translation is a little of, Who did you order from AGDE or some other site? I cannot find an Automag-UK site listed anywhere. I will actually see the owner of AGDE in about a week-10 days, so if you wish to pm me the order details I will chase it up for you. This is assuming that you have indeed ordered from AGDE. Incidently as pointed out by Muzikman AGDE is now NPS Europe and most all of the energies are being pointed in that direction. The Link for the main AGD shop to the European site was down last time I checked....(checked it again still down)

[Aslan]

The price is an isolated incident. What ballers seem to misunderstand is that. well they want better and better facilities they also want cheaper and cheaper prices. We do not have a paintball "behometh" company yet that can offer, due to immense scale, the best prices and the best facilities. Well not always the case fields prices reflect the type of services and facilities they offer.

Not to hijack the thread with paint cost conversations...but I both agree and disagree with you.

I may be in the minority, but I would rather see good fields with good refs increase their admission fees rather than their paint prices. I would pay an extra $15 a day to play at a better field with better refs. But when the field makes you buy field paint, they sort of "hide" the cost. They say, "Hey, look how cheap it is to play all day at our field!" Then you show up with you gun and a half case of paint you have left over from a previous time you played with friends...and the field says, "Whoaooa... :nono: you can't use that! Here, buy a $60-$70 case of this." All the sudden, paintball gets alot more expensive. Now I need to keep two inventories of paint...one inventory that I use in backyard and BYOP field games...one inventory for when I go to a field paint only field. And if I decide to try a scenario game at a different field paint only field...well, there's another inventory. It's just annoying. If you have a good field, charge more money to play there rather than hide the increase in field paint costs. :nono:

One field I go to is field paint only...$15 all day, free air/CO2 refills, $60/case for paint. Another is $20/day, BYOP, $10 for air refill. So when I make my decision...if I have some field paint left over from a previous outing...I probably go to the first field. If I don't, I grab a case of decent paint for $35, pay the $20, another $10-$20 in air refills. It ends up about the same...$75-$80 per day. Since field 2 is closer...given gas prices...I might lean towards that field...but field 1 has better refs...so I might lean that way...sort of depends which friends want to play. So for me, it's not as much about the price because $60 isn't "outrageous"...for me it's more about being able to evaluate different paint and not having to carry 2-3 inventories of different paint. The only time the price comes into play is when I have to buy 2 cases of paint...which I rarely if ever would need to do...that usually only happens if I dump a couple pods and hoppers on the ground while I'm showing off my "non-gracefulness". :tard:

[11 Bravo]

When it cost the mfg under $15.00 a case delivered - $60, 70 and $80 a case is a rip off.
And in most cases it is.

I can see where a small field with just a few players would have to charge more, but some of these fields that get hundreds of players that are forced to buy the field paint -$70.00 and $80.00 is wrong.

[Lohman446]

When it cost the mfg under $15.00 a case delivered - $60, 70 and $80 a case is a rip off.
And in most cases it is.

I can see where a small field with just a few players would have to charge more, but some of these fields that get hundreds of players that are forced to buy the field paint -$70.00 and $80.00 is wrong.

Just out of curiosity, where does that $15 a case number come from. Not that I'm calling it wrong (though I don't think it accurate, I would not know) I'm just curios where the number comes from.

[11 Bravo]

Just out of curiosity, where does that $15 a case number come from. Not that I'm calling it wrong (though I don't think it accurate, I would not know) I'm just curios where the number comes from.

I would rather not get too specific because I dont want to start any trouble around my location. I live outside of Tampa / St. Petersburg where two of the paintball mfgs are and I have a couple of friends that are involved with both companies.
I am not going to go any farther. Do with it what you want.

[AGD202]

AGD does more government testing anymore, and not so much of making a paintball gun.. at least thats what a person who owns a pro shop told me... i dont know and i dont care though, mags are good guns and will always have their followers like a classic car.

[Muzikman]

The government development is over as far as I know. The end result was the FN303 which didn't end up going to the government but to FN. I am sure they are still making money off of it though. Perfect circle is also still making projectiles as far as I know.

[hipster]

Hey mark M
It is my understanding that AGDE no longer exists
If you need parts you have to go to Airgun.com in the US now

[Lohman446]

I would rather not get too specific because I dont want to start any trouble around my location. I live outside of Tampa / St. Petersburg where two of the paintball mfgs are and I have a couple of friends that are involved with both companies.
I am not going to go any farther. Do with it what you want.


:cheers: The problem I see with production costs: Does it include just the cost of materials? Does it include labor? Does it include equipment devaluation? Does it include operating overhead (lights, etc)? Does it include loan repayment for capital outlay? Does it include adequate return on investment? There are a lot of things in business that can be changed depending on what factors are taken into consideration.

[11 Bravo]

:cheers: The problem I see with production costs: Does it include just the cost of materials? Does it include labor? Does it include equipment devaluation? Does it include operating overhead (lights, etc)? Does it include loan repayment for capital outlay? Does it include adequate return on investment? There are a lot of things in business that can be changed depending on what factors are taken into consideration.

That was everything with the exception of shipping. Even if it wasnt, with the number of cases mfg, your above arguments would only add a little to the final cost of making a case of paint. It would easily be divided up with the large numbers of cases. None of your points would justify the large mark up.

The only thing that justifies the large mark up is the fact that we suckers pay it.

[frop]

The government development is over as far as I know. The end result was the FN303 which didn't end up going to the government but to FN. I am sure they are still making money off of it though. Perfect circle is also still making projectiles as far as I know.

It was my understanding that AGD manufactures the valves for the 303, plus I'm also sure they get royalties.

I think the only thing that will kill off AGD anytime soon is if China or someone drops a nuke on Chicago. Even then IDK, TK probably has some sort of uber nuke-shooter-downer dealy there :D

[scrumpy]

If paint could be sold cheaper, I guarantee you someone would have done it. There is always at least 1 guy in paintball who likes to pee in the swimming pool by offering it lower than anyone else without regard to making a profit :cheers:

I used to hate it when people peed in pools, but holy urine my eyes have been opened! :wow:

[11 Bravo]

I read some where that TK said he still owned AGD but that he had sold all the parts to Zupe (sp). That makes me wonder if Zupe isnt acting as a liquidator. His he just selling off the stock or are they still mfg things. And I hope they are trying to develop a faster firing mechanism.

[Muzikman]

It was my understanding that AGD manufactures the valves for the 303, plus I'm also sure they get royalties.

I think the only thing that will kill off AGD anytime soon is if China or someone drops a nuke on Chicago. Even then IDK, TK probably has some sort of uber nuke-shooter-downer dealy there :D


They do make the valves, but for as many FN303s that sell, I doubt they have done much more than one run of valves anyway.

There is a picture from a few years ago (I think if was of the X mags) that had a tray of odd looking mag valves in it. Those were the FN valves. As for Royalties I am sure they are getting something or have got something. My point was, the Military R&D is over, so they are back to making paintball gear.

Look familiar? Think it will fit in a mag? :)
http://paintballmedia.com/albums/MuzikmanMarkers/FN303_Valve2.sized.jpg

[SCpoloRicker]

The only thing that justifies the large mark up is the fact that we suckers pay it.

Bbbzzzztttt! You are incorrect.

[SlartyBartFast]

And I hope they are trying to develop a faster firing mechanism.

WHY? :rolleyes:
Every damn paintball marker on the market fires faster than you can pull the trigger.

The person asking for faster firing rates is the last peron that should be allowed to complain about the cost of paint. :p


That was everything with the exception of shipping. Even if it wasnt, with the number of cases mfg, your above arguments would only add a little to the final cost of making a case of paint. It would easily be divided up with the large numbers of cases. None of your points would justify the large mark up.

Where do you get your knowledge of paintball manufacture? Final consumer pricing has so many variables and dependencies that your analysis is incredibly simplistic.

The paint sales price has to cover all of the costs of manufacturing, profit for the manufacturer, all the costs of distibuting, profit for the distributor, all the costs of selling it, and the profit of the retailer. Additionally, paint markup has to pay for field equipment and utilities in the case of paint sold at a field.

With so many people in the paint business these days, don't you think competition is about as fierce as it's going to get?


My point was, the Military R&D is over, so they are back to making paintball gear.

TK is still making good money with Perfect Circle. The FN303's need their special ammunition, the pepperballs too.

There is always more money to made selling consumables than hardware...

[Muzikman]

I am sure Tom and who ever else has invested interest in PC and AGD are making money. The question is, are they making money at paintball? I don't see AGD going anywhere, but just how much are they making off the paintball sale?

[Lohman446]

The paint sales price has to cover all of the costs of manufacturing, profit for the manufacturer, all the costs of distibuting, profit for the distributor, all the costs of selling it, and the profit of the retailer. Additionally, paint markup has to pay for field equipment and utilities in the case of paint sold at a field.

And what you, I, and Rogue all seem to have failed to mention to this point is the very real chance of there being a cost of litigation, and the need to be prepared for that cost ahead of time.

[Lohman446]

I am sure Tom and who ever else has invested interest in PC and AGD are making money. The question is, are they making money at paintball? I don't see AGD going anywhere, but just how much are they making off the paintball sale?

This is a good point. Has paintball become such a nuisance (whiney players, poltical tournament series, questionable marketing tactics by competition, etc) to Tom that the profits, if any, are not worth it?

[11 Bravo]

Slartbartfest

In response to your comments about paint mark up I have this to say: "DUH". Read my post again. I was talking about the markup from the mfg. In many cases the paint is going strait from the mfg to the field operator (no middle man) and this is what I was talking about. Of course the more paint is passed from dealer to dealer its going to have to be marked up. Again DUH. There is no excuse for a field operator to have around a 1,000 or more players at an event and charge $80.00 a case no matter what you say. Of course I am talking about when the paint comes strait from the mfg.
Either you are the paintball dealer that I have seen on A5og or you need to give credit for the quote that you stole. And if you are the guy - that quote is old get a new one.
Since you are a dealer I would expect you to defend the high price.
Oh and just to let you all know. I buy quality paint at $25.00 a case. Why would I get it at a loss to the mfg? I wouldnt. Oh and dont ask from who or where because I wont answer- I am not going to mess up a good thing.

Also in my post that you did not completely read or comprehend I did say that I understood why a small field or dealer would have to charge higher prices.
By the length of your post and the number of people that you addressed I would think you came in this morning looking for a fight. So here I epunch you in the face.

[11 Bravo]

For an example of what I am talking about.
Last year at an event of 1,700 people paint sold at $80.00 a case. If every player bought 2 cases that would be $272,000.00 (of course some bought more, some bought less). With the cost to the field owner at $25.00 a case that leaves a profit of $187,000.00 in two days.
That doesnt include the field prices and other costs to the player. This is Robbery no matter what excuse you want to give.
15 years ago when I was playing paint was $75.00 a case. Paint prices should have gone down by now.
The only reason they have not is because we are suckers.

[Lohman446]

[ There is no excuse for a field operator to have around a 1,000 or more players at an event and charge $80.00 a case no matter what you say. .

Good job at being open minded there :rolleyes:
What about the events that have high overhead to hire out the producers, have an area that is played on once a year, and need to cover a good share of there costs once a year? What about events that rent out high dollar locations for that one time?

[SCpoloRicker]

Slartbartfest

In response to your comments about paint mark up I have this to say: "DUH". Read my post again. I was talking about the markup from the mfg. In many cases the paint is going strait from the mfg to the field operator (no middle man) and this is what I was talking about. Of course the more paint is passed from dealer to dealer its going to have to be marked up. Again DUH. There is no excuse for a field operator to have around a 1,000 or more players at an event and charge $80.00 a case no matter what you say. Of course I am talking about when the paint comes strait from the mfg.
Either you are the paintball dealer that I have seen on A5og or you need to give credit for the quote that you stole. And if you are the guy - that quote is old get a new one.
Since you are a dealer I would expect you to defend the high price.
Oh and just to let you all know. I buy quality paint at $25.00 a case. Why would I get it at a loss to the mfg? I wouldnt. Oh and dont ask from who or where because I wont answer- I am not going to mess up a good thing.

Also in my post that you did not completely read or comprehend I did say that I understood why a small field or dealer would have to charge higher prices.
By the length of your post and the number of people that you addressed I would think you came in this morning looking for a fight. So here I epunch you in the face.


Bbbzzzztttt! You are incorrect.

/

[Lohman446]

For an example of what I am talking about.
Last year at an event of 1,700 people paint sold at $80.00 a case. If every player bought 2 cases that would be $272,000.00 (of course some bought more, some bought less). With the cost to the field owner at $25.00 a case that leaves a profit of $187,000.00 in two days.
That doesnt include the field prices and other costs to the player. This is Robbery no matter what excuse you want to give.
15 years ago when I was playing paint was $75.00 a case. Paint prices should have gone down by now.
The only reason they have not is because we are suckers.

You have ZERO business or accounting experience don't you? I think your post pretty well indicates that one.

Don't like it, don't play.

[11 Bravo]

Um yeah I have my own business and have been very successful. I guess being a telemarketer has made you a business giant huh. Or maybe just a know it all.

And I can afford the prices and more, but I dont have to like it. I know when I am being taken advantage of.

Oh I could be wrong I thought you were a telemarketer what is it that you do that makes you the business giant that you are.

[11 Bravo]

Wheres the mistake in my accounting smart guy.

[Lohman446]

Wheres the mistake in my accounting smart guy.

Counting mark-up as profit with zero consideration of other costs involved in overhead? Its either a simplistic viewpoint that shows no experience or an attempt to inflate your stance through an ignorant statement you hope noone calls you on. I'm still divided on that one.

Telemarketing, interesting. Click on this profile thing and recheck that one. You suck at the interweb man :D :cheers:

[SlartyBartFast]

Lohman446: Your unmentioned cost is what insurance is for. Just one of many standard business expenses being ignored by 11 Bravo.
11 Bravo: Spell my name right. Never been on A5og, What “stolen quote”? :tard:


Wheres the mistake in my accounting smart guy.

The mistake, is complete ignorance for all other costs after manufacturing. The simple, basic, and blatant error that your examples have ZERO “accounting” in them.

Your 1,000 player event doesn't take into consideration ANY expenses other than paint.

If you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the event made more than 20-25% NET profit margin or that the organizer of the event is making an excessive living of running just one event after all possible expenses are removed you might have a point.

But even if you did have a point, and I don't think you do, why should any organizer listen to you?

And you’re messing up your stance. Is it the manufacturers or the organizers and field owners you have an issue with? You claim wholesale is too expensive, yet your examples all decry retail pricing.


1,700 people paint sold at$80.00 a case. If every player bought 2 cases that would be $272,000.00 (of course some bought more, some bought less). With the cost to the field owner at $25.00 a case that leaves a profit of $187,000.00 in two days.

“Profit” << That’s the most ignorant conclusion I’ve ever read and if you’re a business owner it must be by pure chance that you’re still in business. That figure is “revenue”. Profit is what you get after deducting all expenses.

So, prove that the organizers are making an obscene amount of take home pay, then you might be able to argue gouging. How long did it take to organize? What were the advertising costs? What were the staffing costs? What were the field and equipment costs?

If you can’t show that there was “excessive” profit, then you have to assume the prices were required. Cutting the paint price in half would mean having to sell 4 times as much paint to have the same revenue.

25$ cost (where are fields getting that?)
80$ retail = 55$ revenue per case.
40$ retail = 15$ revenue per case. X4 = 60$

I’d also like you to prove that every one of the 1,700 players was shooting 2 cases of paint. I doubt the average is even a single case.


15 years ago when I was playing paint was $75.00 a case. Paint prices should have gone down by now.
The only reason they have not is because we are suckers.

Out of the 1,700 how many disliked the experience or were shocked by the prices? If they were satisfied with the event and paid the price, no one was “robbed” and no one was a “sucker”.

Because all this brings us to a very fundamental business principle: Only a moron would deliberately earn less than the maximum possible.

So, you run a business and seem to think that the profit in paintball events is excessive. Run one yourself then. See how low you can price paint without raising other prices, then see how many players you lose because of higher field or concession fees compared to how many paint sprayers you gain by having cheap paint.

Yes, you can buy good paint for 30$ or so. But that doesn’t give you a local retailer or support, and it doesn’t give you a field or an event to shoot it at.

[11 Bravo]

I am not going to go on and on about this, this is the last time. We have all made our point. I am talking about the final cost of paint and fields that are open all year long. I would and do understand about one time events that rent out an expensive place, of course then all of the expenses are going to be higher.
And yes everyone around here that I speak to is put off by the high prices at this particular field. I guess in different locations the season can affect the prices also, but here paintball is year round. And yes I understand insurance- I am in the construction business. I understand running a business and paying expenses and paying for all kinds of freeking insurance. Theres nothing you can tell me about that.
And you made my point about you would be a fool to not get the most that you can for a product. They are getting the most that they can and its because we pay it.

But go ahead and defend the prices. Its because of people like you two that the prices will never go down.

Oh and I dont know what kind of PB you play but 2 cases of paint at a 24 hour scenario game is nothing.

[SlartyBartFast]

But go ahead and defend the prices. Its because of people like you two that the prices will never go down.

That's Funny. :rofl:

You're making the assumption that I play regularly and that when I do I pay a fortune. Wrong on both counts. :clap:

And I think you're pretty wrong about the financial windfall you seem to think fields enjoy.

A local Soccerplex charges 200$ per hour for using their field and are booked solid. Paintball has a HUGE overhead compared to soccer. And a paintball field probably doesn't take in near that much.

[SCpoloRicker]

I'm somewhat tempted to go over to BlackCat Productions or another scenario event firm and look around for some costs, profit margins etc.

But I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're incorrect.

/yes I know what happens when you assume

[SlartyBartFast]

But I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're incorrect.

Who’s incorrect? A little quote might be nice....

[SCpoloRicker]

Who’s incorrect? A little quote might be nice....

Merde. I was referring to the incorrect cost assumptions 11 Bravo was making in regards to large scenario events.

But he's making the argument that because he can get cheap paint, everyone theoretically should. Its just the greed/profit chasing firms at fault.

And that probably doesn't need to be debunked.

Je m'excuse.

[Geoff Call]

Lots of arguing here. I'll throw in my change. As far as I can understand Tom Kaye is probably making a piss ton more money selling real estate now than he was with AGD. Though he sold the company to his VP I believe the company is in good hands and will prosper as long as a good product is still being produced, parts are needed, and players are diligent. I've noticed a lot of "attic-clearing" in the past few months since Tom left, and much of it to my advantage as well as many others of you. Some neat things have come out of it like many lost pump kits some NEW classic mags and classic minimags. The past couple weeks have spawned some long lost flatline regs which makes me more eager to put a new reg on my dye tank:). I don't think AGD would leave such a large mass of supporters in the dust without making some specs and paperwork loose for us to remanufacture the necessities for ourselves. Too old of a company, too good of a product.

As far as field paint goes, I've read a lot of peoples views, educated and non educated. You have to understand that a field does not rely on paint to survive, but players shooting the paint. If players are willing to shoot a 50 dollar case of white box and not complain about quality or price, and the field still makes 25 dollars profit, let it be. If paint were too expensive nobody would want to play, then where would we be. I work at a field that is supported by walk-ons and recball players. We sell more cheap paint than premium or tournament grade paint, not because of quality or price but because they don't know any better. Those of you who do know what the cost of low-grade paint is are the only ones complaining and aren't really keeping in perspective that if the paint gets cheap the field gets cheap because in many fields and stores every little bit of money goes to keeping the doors open, the power on, and the employees paid. If paint prices drop you will deffinitely see parts cost go up, or the nice ANS pods quickly turn into 32 degrees pods without a price change. Or maybe you'll gladly pay 5 bucks per thousand psi of HPA.

My prices might be a lot lower than your local prices because the owners of the field I work at have real jobs and the paintball thing is a hobby. They run the field in their free time and they do it for the good of the sport. BYOP, $10 field fees, $1 per 1kpsi, $50 for field paint if you chose to buy it, $4 20oz fills. You should see the CO2 bulk tank bills every month at the store I'm at, it's rediculous. Some of you know what I'm talking about.

If anything is too expensive its freaking belt driven hoppers. I'd gladly pay 200 bucks for an aluminum hopper with aluminum parts that never cracked, shattered, or broke like these plastic deals companies are passing off as professional equipment.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure I'll get slammed hard for most of it.

Thanks,

Geoff Call

[Aslan]

On the one hand, I totally agree with Bravo that expensive field paint is not good. On the other hand, most paintball fields are not making money hand over fist.

I completely understand that field paint may be a necessary evil to cover all of the costs that Lohman and others mentioned...completely understand. But what I see as "short-sighted" by field owners is the price versus volume approach.

Sure, a field will make more money if they sell expensive paint and force field users to buy it. But their focus shouldn't be on sqeezing the last few dollars out of the players that frequent their field. The focus should be on getting more players ot frequent their field. Selling anything involves an analysis similar to this. You may be able to get 10-20 dollars for a case of let's say paint. That's what your marketing department says your current market will bear. BUT...it's not that simple. If you charge $10, your profit margin will be down, but your volume sales will be up...attracting new customers to your product. Maybe you realize that you have a large enough market share you don't need additional customers...but instead more profit...you increase the price closer to $20 and suffer the slight loss in volume.

For a field, I would say volume is important. Volume brings newbs...private groups...casual players...and friends of all of the above. An analogy can be made to movie theatres or amusement parks. People now go to amusement parks once a year. Why? It's too expensive to go there every weekend. They, like paint, increase the prices of food and souveniers to an almost rediculous price level and don't allow you to "BYOP". Movie theatres do the same thing...and nowadays movie theatres are struggling. Why? Well, there's numerous reasons...but one big one is that it costs $22 to go to the theatre by the time ya get a drink, popcorn and candy...all of which are over-priced greatly.

So...long story long...fields should focus on building volume, better refs, and a quality field with fair, fun play. If they do that...the volumes will more than make up for the losses they suffer to BYOP.

My opinion. :ninja:

[Glickman]

For a field, I would say volume is important. Volume brings newbs...private groups...casual players...and friends of all of the above. An analogy can be made to movie theatres or amusement parks. People now go to amusement parks once a year. Why? It's too expensive to go there every weekend.

So...long story long...fields should focus on building volume, better refs, and a quality field with fair, fun play. If they do that...the volumes will more than make up for the losses they suffer to BYOP.

My opinion. :ninja:

I know the local field by me (cousins paintball), while good at marketing, they really suck at business tactics, and only manage to make sales to new players who dont know any better, ie.

Paintball marker price at cousins= CP
The Same Paintball marker price online=OP
The Same Paintball marker price at any other proshop= PP
The Warranty Price at any other proshop= WP

CP > PP + WP + $100
CP > OP + $200
____________________________________

Good Quality Box of Paint at Cousins =CP
Good Quality Box of Paint at High Velocity (5 minutes away) =HP
Admission at High Velocity = HA

CP > 2(HP) + HA


Obviously if you can shoot 2 boxes of the same quality paint and get admission for the one price of a box at cousins, AND the competing field is 5 minutes away, they could be doing better.