the one thing that could save automags. [Archive]

Jaan

09-11-2005, 10:31 AM

'Mags could compete with Tippmanns and Spyders at least. Neither of those guns is as good as a 'Mag, but they sell like hotcakes. The kind of people who like Spyders, at least the ones I'm aware of, love the way they look and they love the upgrades available. Everyone who's seen a Dallara bodied 'Mag or similar loves the way they look. I think if you had a gun that looked like that on the wall next to Spyders you might have a chance.

Tippmann owners love that the guns have a military look to them, and that they're reliable. I've let a few Tippmann fanatics shoot my 'Mag and they all think it's a much better gun ... you just don't see them on the wall next to the Tippmann's, or in S-Mart for that matter.

Hey, if I was good at marketing I'd be working for some big firm and making 6 figures a year. I think AGD needs to bite the bullet and hire one of those marketing firms that specializes is creating cultish brand loyalism.

Duzzy

09-11-2005, 01:51 PM

cultish brand loyalism.

Actually I'm pretty sure this is what AGD has already. What they would really need is new blood, something which they are getting even if it isn't all that apparent.

maglover728

09-11-2005, 03:34 PM

What they need to do is begin to advertise again.

Indignant

09-11-2005, 03:36 PM

cultish brand loyalism.

Hell, that's all they DO have going for them at this point.

Jaan

09-11-2005, 04:37 PM

Hell, that's all they DO have going for them at this point.But the masses of heathens must be converted.

09-11-2005, 05:03 PM

Done -----> http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=179550

What else you got? :ninja:

450 for frame + 400 for mag = :spit_take

Glickman

09-11-2005, 05:55 PM

go ahead....

poke if it you want
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5060/beatingadeadhorse7sk.gif

yea, everyones gonna ditch they're autocockers to invest another $400 to have well.. not much more in the way of benifits.

KalFalnal

09-11-2005, 05:59 PM

In the mid 90s when I was playing with rentals and eventually a Spyder classic my friends had automags. That was the marker to have, autococker is the only other I remember hearing about back than. When I recently started playing again, automags were seemingly nowhere to be found. Than I saw the Tac-One on specialopspaintball.com as part of their 'Longbow' sniper setup.

I just ordered my tac one Friday.

I think AGD should consider pursuing the scenario/woodsball market. Right now Tippman and some mil-sim brands dominate that area. But in terms of performance there really isn't a high end 'woodsball' marker. You've got the Tippman 98 Custom at entry level and the A5 is considered the best marker marker for that type of play. I think that the Tac-One and mags in general could easily be positioned as the top-tier marker off the speedball field. In the specops community this is already beginning with the realization that the Tac-One is an all around better marker than the A5.

Players who spend most of their time in the woods prefer not to mess with electronics and batteries as they are more vulnerable to weather and rough handlig. We also play longer games further from a convient spot to dissassmble an A5's grip just to put i a new battery. Thats why I chose the tac one, all mechanical operation, reputation for reliablity, able to reach high rates of fire. Well, those reasons and the q-loader horizontal feedneck that spec ops makes for their "Q-Bow" setup.

I'd like to see a mechanical automag mainbody like the tacone's without the rails or whatever makes it so expensive. Something sufficiently 'milsim' looking to catch the attention of the woodsballers and scenario players but at a more affordable price. In general though, I think that the cheaper mags as they are could do well with these players if they were more aware of them.

Many of you may not realize it but there are masses of players out in the woods. Speedball gets all the media coverage and corporate attention but that doesn't mean thats where the majority of players are.

Glickman

09-11-2005, 07:32 PM

Many of you may not realize it but there are masses of players out in the woods. Speedball gets all the media coverage and corporate attention but that doesn't mean thats where the majority of players are.

wow... never thought of that.

/sarcasm

if its not marketable, it wont be around for long. obviously speedball is much more marketable then scenarioball.

but, i will go out on a sterotype to say that woodsballers are generally looking to spend less then the average speedballer, and the automag doesnt cater to that.

KalFalnal

09-11-2005, 07:45 PM

wow... never thought of that.

/sarcasm

if its not marketable, it wont be around for long. obviously speedball is much more marketable then scenarioball.

but, i will go out on a sterotype to say that woodsballers are generally looking to spend less then the average speedballer, and the automag doesnt cater to that.

It is marketable. Look at Special Ops Paintball (http://www.specialopspaintball.com) for example. Its not as flashy as speedball, not as easy to put on tv and doesn't sell as many paintballs. That doesn't mean it isn't a huge market.

Yes, many woodsballers are looking to spend less money. But have you seen the equipment they buy? Look at the
A5 mods (http://www.specialopspaintball.com/vault/) for example. Most of the things they buy for their markers don't even neccesarily improve thier performance; stocks, scopes, etc. But, I suppose with all the money saved on paint and few high end markers being marketed to them they have to spend all that money on something.

*ArKfEaR*

09-11-2005, 08:37 PM

They need to redo the mag valve itself, before you jump out attacking me let me explain why.

Now the X-Valve is amazing, Level 10 is amazing, but take the normal day to day paintball consumer or player better yet and picture them figuring out tuning Level 10. Just picture the small things that you know to watch out with your mag that other people dont. People say the mag is simple but when it comes down to it for a normal person its pretty confusing.

Shims, O rings, spacers, springs... people dont want to do this.

They need a permanent Level 10 (or whatever the next level may be) That doesnt EVER need to be adjusted or MINORLY retuned but it needs to be easy to acess. Although, once Level 10 is set its usually golden, but sometimes just taking your mag apart for cleaning and maintainence can throw it off.

Now this is just saying mechanically.

However, if there were to be an E-Blade type deal for a mag that included the frame, eye, and maybe a different spring or bolt made to handle the speeds (unless it wasn't needed). There definitley would be a chance of seeing Mags come back, because it definitley brought Cockers back.

If you have a cocker, you can throw on an E1 for around 100 bux. With maybe a bolt upgrade and a different Ram, your set.

and Devil Mags are just way too expensive sorry.

Indignant

09-11-2005, 08:38 PM

But the masses of heathens must be converted.

You don't really get it, do you?

_________________________________________

KalFanal, it not being a huge market isn't the problem. It's that it is not as BIG of a market, in the same sport.

Lohman446

09-11-2005, 08:41 PM

an eblade for mags. im serious..everyone pays attention to planet eclipse, and if they came out with a mag frame.....people would probably ditch their cockers for mags..

if this is a stupid post, its late...thats why.

Lets say we could get everyone currently using an E-'Cocker to switch to a mag... you still wouldn't dent SP, Dyes, or National sales would you...

*ArKfEaR*

09-11-2005, 08:49 PM

Lets say we could get everyone currently using an E-'Cocker to switch to a mag... you still wouldn't dent SP, Dyes, or National sales would you...

It shouldnt be about denting sales or getting people to switch over. Who the frig cares what guns people shoot. The goal should be to get an ACTUAL upgrade thats obtainable for EVERYONE to upgrade their current mag into a FAST, UNCHOPPABLE, machine. Which is what E-blades did for cockers.

matt-o

09-11-2005, 09:08 PM

It shouldnt be about denting sales or getting people to switch over. Who the frig cares what guns people shoot. The goal should be to get an ACTUAL upgrade thats obtainable for EVERYONE to upgrade their current mag into a FAST, UNCHOPPABLE, machine. Which is what E-blades did for cockers.
i refer you to coolhand's post

MadPSIence

09-11-2005, 09:28 PM

i refer you to coolhand's post

i see a lot of referring and little buying.

teufelhunden

09-11-2005, 10:22 PM

i see a lot of referring and little buying.

I see a lot of lips moving.. but no words.

Teamslayer76

09-11-2005, 10:57 PM

I love the peaceful disscussion here, but with a little laughter and poke fun and dead horses.
Yes, all agreed, the only peoply who will purchase a Automag is a person who is already established in the Cult of AGD. Otherwise the only way I can see is if they find out about them by us. AGD has no advertising what so ever, well to my knowledge. :argh: ...hmmm...

I'd imagine if they redesigned the cosmetics of any Automag make it look "new" "modern" "cool/agg" it would sell. Or all of us, as I try, advertise for them. Speard the word is my answer.
Tell people about the markers, tell new players! Let friends use your Automags show them the greatness and the constant evolution, Mq-Valve, Pneu-Mag, E-Mags.

Also beauty, it a tough line to go by. We have the ugliest markers in the world {IMHO} but they can be sexy killing machines. Show people custom milling bodies, annos ect ect. :cool:
I've gotten a few peopel to purchase Mags by showing them the gallery on www.zakvetter.com the majority of those are great looking. :)

But remember, this is mostly my opinion.

With hope,
Teamslayer76

Edited for sp..which I likely didn't get all, its late. :shooting: :sleeping:

Glickman

09-11-2005, 11:09 PM

I've gotten a few peopel to purchase Mags by showing them the gallery on www.zakvetter.com the majority of those are great looking. :)

well, cant say much there if they are buying guns based on image. i thought thats what kingman was around for :rolleyes:

Some of you say that "ooh, they just dont know the power of automags." Give everyone more credit. automags are just not cost-effective, compared to some other options.

"I'd imagine if they redesigned the cosmetics of any Automag make it look "new" "modern" "cool/agg" it would sell."

yeeesh. lets see, no major of economics here, but ill wager my saving to say that this would pick up maybe a few hundred customers at the most, but also loose alot of very dedicated customers (i call this the "Automags.org superiority complex") :rofl: but i could see how they might feel "betrayed."

Duzzy

09-11-2005, 11:19 PM

Shims, O rings, spacers, springs... people dont want to do this.

Dear Lord save me now from the shims, spacers, and most of all the springs for they know not what they do to me in my idiocy. And O-rings. Don't get me started. No one wants to deal with O-rings and that's why you don't see very many spool valved markers around.

They need a permanent Level 10 (or whatever the next level may be) That doesnt EVER need to be adjusted or MINORLY retuned but it needs to be easy to acess. Although, once Level 10 is set its usually golden, but sometimes just taking your mag apart for cleaning and maintainence can throw it off.

I'm not even going to respond to this. Actually, I am. If you can't put in different spacers until one makes a leak go away then you have no chance of survival in life.

Now this is just saying mechanically.

Have you ever touched a Pre-99 Autococker? Honestly? An Automag has nothing on them.

So what you're saying is that we should make everything idiot proof so no one has to do anything. That sounds like a great way to get all the little kiddies to learn how to take care of their equipment. And to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs....

This post is probably rude, offenive, and blatantly insulting. For that I apologize, but here it shall stay. Having a light turned on when you are used to the darkness is painful, but sometimes you just need to see where you are going. Think Plato.

JRingold

09-11-2005, 11:33 PM

It is marketable. Look at Special Ops Paintball (http://www.specialopspaintball.com) for example. Its not as flashy as speedball, not as easy to put on tv and doesn't sell as many paintballs. That doesn't mean it isn't a huge market.

Yes, many woodsballers are looking to spend less money. But have you seen the equipment they buy? Look at the
A5 mods (http://www.specialopspaintball.com/vault/) for example. Most of the things they buy for their markers don't even neccesarily improve thier performance; stocks, scopes, etc. But, I suppose with all the money saved on paint and few high end markers being marketed to them they have to spend all that money on something.

Scenario and Woods ballers spend less money on paint??? I must have missed a memo somewhere because I and the people who play scenario and woods ball with me seem to shoot a lot of paint. I'm bringing 5 cases with me on Sunday and I'm planning to buy at least one more when I get out to the field.

Oh yeah, just because we play in the woods doesn't mean we don't buy high end markers. I don't play speedball unless I'm forced into playing it during open play, but I own two X-Mags. And an RT-Pro ULE and a Phantom.

Glickman

09-12-2005, 12:58 AM

So what you're saying is that we should make everything idiot proof so no one has to do anything. That sounds like a great way to get all the little kiddies to learn how to take care of their equipment. And to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs....

This post is probably rude, offenive, and blatantly insulting. For that I apologize, but here it shall stay. Having a light turned on when you are used to the darkness is painful, but sometimes you just need to see where you are going. Think Plato.

but what YOU are saying that manufactureres shouldn't put out the best quality and proofing, so the 13 year old has to learn how a soleniod works?

what about a car? can you say the same thing about a car? personally, i know how a paintball gun works, nearly all of them, but my car, all i want to know is that it runs. the same is the answer i get from many people when i help them on the computer as well. they dont have to know ram works, they use it all the time, but that doesnt mean they have to know how it works persay, but the basics are always useful. (atleast thats my feelings)

so, you think this is a good idea because its smart business? or just because your condensending feelings towards younger paintballers?

thank you for your "enlightend" business ethics, but theres is only one thing you can count on in business, and thats human stupidity. you find something noone can screw-up, congradulations, your a millionaire.

Duzzy

09-12-2005, 01:46 AM

but what YOU are saying that manufactureres shouldn't put out the best quality and proofing, so the 13 year old has to learn how a soleniod works?

Well, when you find someone who is perfect and can make the perfect paintball marker then I don't think we will have an issue with QC. Until then, it wouldn't be a bad idea to understand how a solenoid works.

You know what, if he had mentioned a 'noid I probably wouldn't have said anything. I can understand not knowing how that works. But saying that a part is too high maintenance because you have to deal with O-rings, shims, and spacers in my mind is asinine. Epecially when the product that needs to be "redesigned" is not only very well designed, but very low maintenance all things considered. Especially when you consider what it can do and what it is made out of.

I mean, is that reasonable to you? Saying something is poorly designed because it isn't perfect?

what about a car? can you say the same thing about a car? personally, i know how a paintball gun works, nearly all of them, but my car, all i want to know is that it runs. the same is the answer i get from many people when i help them on the computer as well. they dont have to know ram works, they use it all the time, but that doesnt mean they have to know how it works persay, but the basics are always useful. (atleast thats my feelings)

Can you change the car oil? Can you use the help feature on a computer? I know this will sound stupid but you can have something that requires upkeep and still be quality. I know next to nothing about cars, and I know basically nothing about computers, but I am still willing to look in manuals, call up companies, and when I don't have the right equipment I take it into a shop rather than risk breaking something I don't have the tools to fix. Same with paintball markers.

so, you think this is a good idea because its smart business? or just because your condensending feelings towards younger paintballers?

Not only is this based on absolutely nothing, it is a pretty pathetic comment. Because I think that people should be willing to maintain the things they own, or know how to I hate younger players. Yep, that's a logical conclusion. And because I think younger kids should learn to value expensive gear and accept responsibility for it I hate them. That isn't a stretch either. Seriously... That is just a stupid remark...

You tell me that people will learn how to value their stuff if they can toss it any which way and not have something happen to it. Please do, because I don't think it will ever happen. Are they going to learn how to take care of a pet if it is automatically fed for them? And walked? Learning never hurt anyone and complaining about it doesn't help.

thank you for your "enlightend" business ethics, but theres is only one thing you can count on in business, and thats human stupidity. you find something noone can screw-up, congradulations, your a millionaire.

Alright, I found something that no one can screw up. Shedding dead skin cells. Now where is my million?

In all honesty, personal attacks don't make for intelligent conversation. Have a nice day.

*Edit*

I decided to make one thing a bit more clear by putting it in red...

Glickman

09-12-2005, 06:45 AM

That sounds like a great way to get all the little kiddies to learn how to take care of their equipment. And to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs....

"all the little kiddies"

"and to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs."

condensending.

not a personal attack, just merely stating that your suggestion to me does not seem like a sound business practice, but as if it had another purpose behind it.

this is a little off topic, so lets just end it here anyway.

as far as saving the mag, only a few, select people can REALLY make a difference, and at this present time, i dont see any actions taken. (maybe theyll make me bite my tounge.... hopefully... ;) ;) )

SCpoloRicker

09-12-2005, 10:46 AM

RoWR!

*pokes people with stick*

:)

Target Practice

09-12-2005, 10:54 AM

RoWR!

*pokes people with stick*

:)

Aaaaawwwww yeah, baby.

You know, I'd hate to stifle the immense intellectual brouhaha in here, but hey. I think one of the main "problems" with the latest generation of Mags is that, generally, they are not a take-out-of-the-box-and-play marker. Think of someone that's never played before, who buys a Paradigm or an RTP from airgun.com, or a similar gun (God forbid it's used). Someone that has not the slightest idea or theory behind the marker. Will they be able to set it up? Most likely, no, they won't. They fudge and fiddle with it, get frustrated, sell it, and buy an Ion or a Timmy.

Why? Because it's easier to do that.

Fake Edit: Also, please, please stop with the "OMG WE NEED A LOW PRESURE MAG VALV". We've been over this.

nuclear zombie

09-12-2005, 11:07 AM

automags......Nothing.

AGD has to make something new , not another automag. The design itself will have to be allowed to evolve and branch out into a completely new functionality of paintball gun. If there ever was a company to build a new concept marker and implement it, it could only come from AGD. (this assumption is based on the idea that they still do alot of physical research like they used to .)

Duzzy

09-12-2005, 12:11 PM

"all the little kiddies"

Maybe in your mind that was condescending, however, in my mind it isn't. Now if I had said, "all the litte PBN Agg kiddies that would have been. Apparently we have different definitions and I will leave it at that.

"and to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs."

How is this condescending? Paintball stuff is exspensive. And I have personally witnessed people throwing a thousand of dollars worth of equipment because they got bunkered. I could buy a used car with the price of their gear new and they don't seem to care. Forget condescending, it's the truth where I'm at.

condensending.

not a personal attack, just merely stating that your suggestion to me does not seem like a sound business practice, but as if it had another purpose behind it.

It had nothing to do with business. He came across as extremely lazy and that irked me for whatever reason last night. So I sent off a reply that I knew was probably not going to be very nice. Hence the apology in my first post.

this is a little off topic, so lets just end it here anyway.

Consider it ended.

as far as saving the mag, only a few, select people can REALLY make a difference, and at this present time, i dont see any actions taken. (maybe theyll make me bite my tounge.... hopefully... ;) ;) )

Why does AGD have to make something new? How long has the valve system in every stacked tube blowback been around? No one says it needs to be re-done... The only thing that I think has really changed from Sypders to Intimidators is the way the valve is activated, but it isn't anything new.

What people need to do is realize that in order to maximize the technology they have to go against the grain. High pressure is what the Automag wants, and it is what it works best on. I think AGD should come out with a tank and reg that is adjustable up to 2.5k for the E-mags of the world. Only God knows what somebody would end up doing and how badly someone would be hurt...

Teamslayer76

09-12-2005, 05:45 PM

Glickman said that Kingman was for selling markers on "cosmetics" but they sell like hot cakes.
Isn't that what we want to "save AGD". What I get it if AGD went "mainstream" and became really popular you would hate it. You'd say they suck and call anyone who shot them noobs.
:tard: So messed up. I don't know what to say.

*ArKfEaR*

09-12-2005, 06:15 PM

Duzzy this is all I'm going to say to you, because in my honest opinion your reply to mine was one of the most uneducated replies ever made in the history of forums.

Why do I say this? You just basically said that if you can’t figure it out then your a retard and will not survive in life. The sad part is you’re completely wrong; if a gun requires maintenance especially constant maintenance it will turn people away. Like seriously, you made absolutely no sense besides defending the fact that YOU know what you’re doing therefore EVERYONE should.

What I was trying to get across is EVERYONE doesn’t know what YOU may know about Mags. Perfect example, matt-o referring me to a god damned post about Logic's E-Frame that NO ONE besides the people on this forum will ever see. MAYBE a few wanderers from pbnation and pbreview but chances are they probably are just AO users also with names on both forums.

Now I'm not trying to fight you, I’m just saying you weren’t using much logic with that reply post. Again, this isn’t about TEACHING kids to learn their equipment this is about GETTING kids to buy AGD products. Apparently that part went way by your head as you went into typical AO Robot defense mode.

You have to understand marketing; people want a supreme product with little to no negatives, and the positives MUST always overcome the negatives. Sure the Mags really don’t have too many negatives, ONCE you learn them and sure Mags really aren’t maintenance whores, ONCE you understand them but when it comes down to the fact the "AGG" guns really just outdo a Mag when it comes to that part.

Money alone will stray anyone away from a Mag, when a nice Dallara (because cosmetically appealing sells) MECH will cost you around 650 USED!!!! No one wants to spend $650 on a MECHANICAL gun. The only people who WILL buy it will be other Mag owners. But I can guarantee you the majority of people who put their Mags up, wont sell it for NEARLY what they paid or better yet NEARLY what they want for it used. The majority of them will end up just keeping it or trading it off, IF EVEN.

Mags are indeed amazing guns; I myself was in search for one. When it comes down to it though they just aren’t worth the dough, and this is the used market that I’m talking about which is the real eye opener.

I picked up an E-blade with custom body, eye, all the fixings, full barrel kit, drop, and hopper for $275. The lowest deal I saw for a Mag was a ULE, with no barrel, no drop, intelliframe, fore grip and RT valve for $300.

You tell me which deal you’re going to go with as a person looking into purchasing a new gun?

One has an Eye, The other has Level 10 but which is more trust worthy... honestly?
One is electro and def fast, the other is Mechanical and def fast... what is easier to shoot those fast speeds?
The rest just has to do with resale value...

This wasn’t suppose to be a battle of Gun X vs. Mag but all I'm trying to say is when people are in search of a new gun, new or used MAGS are just way too expensive. There of course is reason as most aftermarket parts are custom made by individuals on this board, but this is also why if Logic were to sell his design for his e-frame for mags to Eclipse it would become better known and much cheaper. Or for that other guy (unsure of name at the time) who had the idea for Level 11 instead of making it himself, try to sell the idea to a much larger company (like Evolve or something?).

If something like this expanded, maybe AGD might just start production on a new gun. Who knows... but in order for something to happen expansion needs to happen and close minded ignorance (displayed by Duzzy) needs to go out the door.

"This post is probably rude, offensive, and blatantly insulting. For that I apologize, but here it shall stay. Think Plato"

r-unit

09-12-2005, 07:06 PM

CoolHand

09-12-2005, 07:34 PM

Ryan (CoolHand), yes, *I* know about the new mag frame you are making, and so do other mag ownesr..but no offense meant, you don't have nearly the reputation that Planet Eclipse has, ESPECIALLY with the release of the ego...if planet eclipse were to take their time to make something for the 'mag, many people might say "if its worth their time, and if they made the ego and e2, which are both amazing, maybe this gun setup is amazing too". in my opinion, that right there would save mags.

DOES ANYBODY AGREE/SEE WHAT IM SAYING? i always get that feeling nobody understands what im getting at..

ie: If Planet Eclipse had made an eblade for the automag instead of the autococker, then I believe only a few people would have autocockers (like automags today) and tons of people would have automags (like autocockers today).

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but you aren't getting what I am saying.

PE doesn't care about the Mag, and they are never going to. If AGD up and disappeared tomorrow, the guys at PE likely wouldn't even notice. If they did, it would get a short pause, normally reserved for when one sees a dead puppy dog on the highway, then back to making Egos.

The big companies don't care about Mags, nor the people that shoot them. They decided long ago that you all weren't worth the trouble and expense of R&D. If I took my design to PE, they'd look at it, and then say "Cool", wad the paper up, toss it in the round file, and then bid me a good day. Even if they had the design handed to them, they still wouldn't do a frame for you guys, there just isn't enough interest.

Instead of lamenting the fact that PE doesn't like you, and that you are stuck with Logic Paintball's Eframe, you might ought to instead try to spread the word, and appreciate the fact that someone, hell anyone still cares enough about Mags to spend the time and money to bring you what you want.

I'm telling you right now, I got inundated with requests to make an EFrame that was fast, light, and reliable, and now that it is here, and nearly ready for release, I've got four, count 'em four (4) guys who are actually following through. That sucks, OK? This is why no one wants to build Mag parts.

You guys are doing yourselves and the Mag in. You guys. By crying wolf for so long, and then to not act at all when the time comes, you've all pretty much spat in my face. I spent the better part of a year designing that thing, and I've got the better part of $5k into the project now (it will be closer to $11k when its all done though), all of which, for the time being at least, looks to be for naught.

If you don't support the guys who are taking the time to make Mag parts, then you deserve not to have the stuff you want. You deserve to have a second class marker, because you wanted brand prestige over functionality. Also, FYI, PE charged $425 for the E1 and the E2 when they were brand new, and they were making those by the thousands. You can't tell me that $450 is too much money for a part that is hand made in batches of 25.

I tell you one thing for sure, if I lose my *** on these EFrames, you can pretty much bet that they will be the last Mag stuff you see from me. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Lohman446

09-12-2005, 07:57 PM

Coolhand has put it as only someone can from experience. Lets talk about mag upgrades

TK has had countless times when this board was like "oh oh we want we want" and then failed to buy - the roller trigger comes to mind

The Devilmag was started as a custom project, and the crap Chris has taken from people is not worth it (myself included in that people).

You can ask Coolhand if you don't get the idea of above.

Extreme Depot bodies...

The only ones who have had good luck with Automags have done so on a small inventory and small investment ( I ASSUME ) comparatively. I doubt anyone spends the money to R&D further on this... especially considering the reputation that TK has given afermarket people - being it better actually do something, you are nto recuping R&D based on marketing. IT will actually have to be better.

Teamslayer76

09-12-2005, 08:43 PM

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but you aren't getting what I am saying.

PE doesn't care about the Mag, and they are never going to. If AGD up and disappeared tomorrow, the guys at PE likely wouldn't even notice. If they did, it would get a short pause, normally reserved for when one sees a dead puppy dog on the highway, then back to making Egos.

The big companies don't care about Mags, nor the people that shoot them. They decided long ago that you all weren't worth the trouble and expense of R&D. If I took my design to PE, they'd look at it, and then say "Cool", wad the paper up, toss it in the round file, and then bid me a good day. Even if they had the design handed to them, they still wouldn't do a frame for you guys, there just isn't enough interest.

Instead of lamenting the fact that PE doesn't like you, and that you are stuck with Logic Paintball's Eframe, you might ought to instead try to spread the word, and appreciate the fact that someone, hell anyone still cares enough about Mags to spend the time and money to bring you what you want.

I'm telling you right now, I got inundated with requests to make an EFrame that was fast, light, and reliable, and now that it is here, and nearly ready for release, I've got four, count 'em four (4) guys who are actually following through. That sucks, OK? This is why no one wants to build Mag parts.

You guys are doing yourselves and the Mag in. You guys. By crying wolf for so long, and then to not act at all when the time comes, you've all pretty much spat in my face. I spent the better part of a year designing that thing, and I've got the better part of $5k into the project now (it will be closer to $11k when its all done though), all of which, for the time being at least, looks to be for naught.

If you don't support the guys who are taking the time to make Mag parts, then you deserve not to have the stuff you want. You deserve to have a second class marker, because you wanted brand prestige over functionality. Also, FYI, PE charged $425 for the E1 and the E2 when they were brand new, and they were making those by the thousands. You can't tell me that $450 is too much money for a part that is hand made in batches of 25.

I tell you one thing for sure, if I lose my *** on these EFrames, you can pretty much bet that they will be the last Mag stuff you see from me. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Amazing post! Coolhand I have the outmost respect for you right now. I know how it is. Even the comparison with you and Planet Eclipse is way out of here. They make quality parts by the 1,000's while you make ultra high quality hand made super parts like you said 25 at a time. It's a dieing breed If you ask me. It more Quantity over Quality. :clap:

Glickman

09-12-2005, 09:00 PM

You guys are doing yourselves and the Mag in. You guys. By crying wolf for so long, and then to not act at all when the time comes, you've all pretty much spat in my face. I spent the better part of a year designing that thing, and I've got the better part of $5k into the project now (it will be closer to $11k when its all done though), all of which, for the time being at least, looks to be for naught.

If you don't support the guys who are taking the time to make Mag parts, then you deserve not to have the stuff you want. You deserve to have a second class marker, because you wanted brand prestige over functionality. Also, FYI, PE charged $425 for the E1 and the E2 when they were brand new, and they were making those by the thousands. You can't tell me that $450 is too much money for a part that is hand made in batches of 25.

I tell you one thing for sure, if I lose my *** on these EFrames, you can pretty much bet that they will be the last Mag stuff you see from me. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

we dont deserve new parts because we dont want to buy YOUR product?

"if I lose my *** on these EFrame" , " looks to be for naught." to me it doesnt sound like your so sure on your product nor consumer base. Its your investment, its your gamble.

if people on the internet, ask for a product, to me atleast, even 500 wouldnt persuade me to do anything. It may not be a good example, but look at pbn. alot of 3rd party people with offers "ill buy 1!!!!!!" but how often to they succeed?

i hope your just letting off steam, because to me, it sounds like your just threatening if YOUR product doesnt sell well, you wont be happy.

nothing personal to you, its just to me sounds like you went off on a limb in a risky investment with a unconfirmed consumer base, and are unsure about your products future

mag88888

09-12-2005, 09:07 PM

Coolhand, i havn't read a post like that in a LONG time. it sure did wake me up. and its sure to wake up up other AO'ers as well. i dont know how to feel or what to say about that post. just puts me to tihnking about it for a while....

MadPSIence

09-12-2005, 09:27 PM

we dont deserve new parts because we dont want to buy YOUR product?

"if I lose my *** on these EFrame" , " looks to be for naught." to me it doesnt sound like your so sure on your product nor consumer base. Its your investment, its your gamble.

if people on the internet, ask for a product, to me atleast, even 500 wouldnt persuade me to do anything. It may not be a good example, but look at pbn. alot of 3rd party people with offers "ill buy 1!!!!!!" but how often to they succeed?

i hope your just letting off steam, because to me, it sounds like your just threatening if YOUR product doesnt sell well, you wont be happy.

nothing personal to you, its just to me sounds like you went off on a limb in a risky investment with a unconfirmed consumer base, and are unsure about your products future

Okay seriously check yourself. He did PLENTY of research to make sure he was making a product that would sell. Countless people said they would buy one etc... 4 damned people (myself included) have actually came to honor that. What other damn research can he do? It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! I can just see it, AO is gonna cop out and then months down the road when Ryan's had it with all talk non-buyers... everyone on AO is going to whine and cry how they wish the mag had a good E-Frame.

AO folk, for people that are supposed to be mag lovers, sure do a good job of making sure the name dies out. Everyone here has the opportunity and ability to build a mag that I promise will perform with or even outperform a top level gun... without surpassing the price unless you want to get into fancy bodies and products that are for show rather than function.

Ryan, I'm sorry you have to put up with people that say one thing and do another. Frankly if people screw this up and continue to do so I'm with you. I'll be done with mags because too many people are making it suck to own one.

Ryan thanks for trying to breathe some air back into the windbag that used to be a supportive community.

nuclear zombie

09-12-2005, 09:33 PM

couldn't have said it better MadPSIence.

Glickman

09-12-2005, 09:36 PM

Okay seriously check yourself. He did PLENTY of research to make sure he was making a product that would sell. Countless people said they would buy one etc... 4 damned people (myself included) have actually came to honor that. What other damn research can he do? It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! I can just see it, AO is gonna cop out and then months down the road when Ryan's had it with all talk non-buyers... everyone on AO is going to whine and cry how they wish the mag had a good E-Frame.

AO folk, for people that are supposed to be mag lovers, sure do a good job of making sure the name dies out. Everyone here has the opportunity and ability to build a mag that I promise will perform with or even outperform a top level gun... without surpassing the price unless you want to get into fancy bodies and products that are for show rather than function.

Ryan, I'm sorry you have to put up with people that say one thing and do another. Frankly if people screw this up and continue to do so I'm with you. I'll be done with mags because too many people are making it suck to own one.

Ryan thanks for trying to breathe some air back into the windbag that used to be a supportive community.

ahh ignorance is bliss. "COUNTLESS" people on the internet. Whats all of these people's phone numbers? addresses? how many deposits did he get? how many preorders? this is not comming from a eco major, just some 16 year old who is pretending to be in his shoes.

Your complaining because people arent taking interest in a product, thats understandable, but blaming them for the "death" of automags because they dont buy something?

" It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! "

ahh ignorance is bliss, yes it is. its business, its life. its a gamble. he relyed on people over the internet, which could or could not have ended up profiting him.

its his choice to rely on a internet-based consumer base which is obviously unestablished as there are not many producers of a product such as the one he was offering.

check myself? you check the basics of thinking on the margin

MadPSIence

09-12-2005, 09:41 PM

ahh ignorance is bliss. "COUNTLESS" people on the internet. Whats all of these people's phone numbers? addresses? how many deposits did he get? how many preorders? this is not comming from a eco major, just some 16 year old who is pretending to be in his shoes.

Your complaining because people arent taking interest in a product, thats understandable, but blaming them for the "death" of automags because they dont buy something?

" It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! "

ahh ignorance is bliss. its business, its life. its a gamble. he relyed on people over the internet, which could or could not have ended up profiting him.

Sorry but it IS the fault of AO - if you tell someone you want something, they make it, and you change your mind... it's YOUR fault if they say forget it and stop supporting the community.

MATH -

E-Frame = good, wanted by many
Logic = Makes the Eframe
Logic Making E-Frame + People copping out on buying after saying they would = Mad logic
Mad logic = Quits helping AO
Mad Logic also = No E-Frame
No E-Frame = opposite of first equation.
Opposite of the first equation being a BAD thing, it's cause being people copping out...

You figure it out.

Glickman

09-12-2005, 09:44 PM

Sorry but it IS the fault of AO - if you tell someone you want something, they make it, and you change your mind... it's YOUR fault if they say forget it and stop supporting the community.

MATH -

E-Frame = good, wanted by many
Logic = Makes the Eframe
Logic Making E-Frame + People copping out on buying after saying they would = Mad logic
Mad logic = Quits helping AO
Mad Logic also = No E-Frame
No E-Frame = opposite of first equation.
Opposite of the first equation being a BAD thing, it's cause being people copping out...

You figure it out.

thats not math, thats thinking on the margin. the difference? math is precise. thinking on the margin, is just that, "thinking," guessing what will be sucessful.

answer me this, if a sole proprietorship is asked to make a product, who ends up with the liability if it goes down the hole?

this is the most intellectually stimulating conversation ive had here in a while :D

MadPSIence

09-12-2005, 09:47 PM

thats not math, thats thinking on the margin. the difference? math is precise. thinking on the margin, is just that, "thinking," guessing what will be sucessful.

answer me this, if a sole proprietorship is asked to make a product, who ends up with the liability if it goes down the hole?

this is the most intellectually stimulating conversation ive had here in a while :D

The Proprietorship is responsible for the money lost.

The people asking for the product are responsible for the SERVICE lost.

Ryan isn't doing this to make money for himself, he's doing it primarily for US. His own fault for taking a risk if he doesn't sell the frames. OUR fault for screwing up the opportunity to own a great product such as the one he's making.

That should make more sense to you.

*ArKfEaR*

09-12-2005, 09:51 PM

Okay seriously check yourself. He did PLENTY of research to make sure he was making a product that would sell. Countless people said they would buy one etc... 4 damned people (myself included) have actually came to honor that. What other damn research can he do? It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! I can just see it, AO is gonna cop out and then months down the road when Ryan's had it with all talk non-buyers... everyone on AO is going to whine and cry how they wish the mag had a good E-Frame.

AO folk, for people that are supposed to be mag lovers, sure do a good job of making sure the name dies out. Everyone here has the opportunity and ability to build a mag that I promise will perform with or even outperform a top level gun... without surpassing the price unless you want to get into fancy bodies and products that are for show rather than function.

Ryan, I'm sorry you have to put up with people that say one thing and do another. Frankly if people screw this up and continue to do so I'm with you. I'll be done with mags because too many people are making it suck to own one.

Ryan thanks for trying to breathe some air back into the windbag that used to be a supportive community.

It's not the peoples fault or the communities fault; it’s simply the fact that he’s laying his trust solely on the people of an INTERNET PAINTBALL FORUM. That’s just bad judgment; never-the-less would be a simple business choice that almost any smart business man wouldn’t make.

Now if he were to distribute on pbnation.com, along with going to PSP/NPPL events and getting some sort of representation/coverage you might have a much better chance of getting your name out.

...Even more so sending the idea to a company and possibly seeing if they want to buy it off you, They obviously are going to market it much better than you can.

Along with that is just obvious things, like MAKING SURE EVERYONE WHO SAYS THEY WANTS WANT puts in deposit, therefore you can always make your money back on parts. The only other thing you can do is try to pump them out as quickly as possible to keep the consumer happy. Otherwise people start complaining ex. All the guys doing custom Turtle body work which they eventually drifted away because so many people said OH he took my money, he took too long blah blah blah.

Finally make sure its something you can handle doing mentally and financially, if then don’t even bother.

:cheers:

Glickman

09-12-2005, 09:52 PM

The Proprietorship is responsible for the money lost.

The people asking for the product are responsible for the SERVICE lost.

Ryan isn't doing this to make money for himself, he's doing it primarily for US. His own fault for taking a risk if he doesn't sell the frames. OUR fault for screwing up the opportunity to own a great product such as the one he's making.

That should make more sense to you.

your thinking made sense, that doesnt mean i agreed :D

but yes, i agree 100% with what you said above, and i never said he didnt have reason to be mad at those who offered to buy his product, my only comment was that i believed that more couldve been taken to surpress this problem (i dont think this problem could ever be avoided)

yet, if only 4 people had actually put a deposit, i think that might have given him a better idea of his dedicated consumer base.

but yea, in the end everyone looses, i just believe its much worse to have lost $5k then to have lost the chance to buy a product

i just agree with *ArKfEaR* that more steps couldve been taken to ensure the consumer base was worth investing in this product beforehand

anyways, good luck with the eframe. ill tell you this though, at $400 and 4 guarenteed buyers, thats better then ~95% of the guys that tried the same on this forum.

MadPSIence

09-12-2005, 09:52 PM

It's not the peoples fault or the communities fault, its simply the fact that hes lying his trust soley on the people of a INTERNET PAINTBALL FORUM. Thats just bad judgement, never-the-less would be a simple business choice that almost any smart business man wouldnt make.

Now if you were to distribute on pbnation.com, along with going to PSP/NPPL events and getting some sort of representation/coverage you might have a much better chance of getting your name out.

Even more so sending the idea to a company and possibly seeing if they want to buy it off you. They obviously are going to market it much better than you can...

Along with that is just obvious things, like MAKING SURE EVERYONE WHO SAYS THEY WANTS WANT puts in deposit, therefore you can always make your money back on parts. The only other thing you can do is try to pump them out as quick as possible to keep the consumer happy. Otherwise people start complaing Ex. All the guys doing custom Turtle body work which they eventually drifted away because so many people said OH he took my money, he took too long blah blah blah.

Finally make sure its something you can handle doing, if you can do it then dont try it.

:cheers:

the impossibilities of outsourcing or selling a mag frame to another company have been discussed elsewhere already.

*ArKfEaR*

09-12-2005, 09:54 PM

the impossibilities of outsourcing or selling a mag frame to another company have been discussed elsewhere already.

1. Has it been done?
2. Who did it?
3. Is there a reason to them failing?
4. Was it a product that was wanted at the time?
5. Was it an electro kit (like an E-Blade) or was it just an idea or mech frame etc.

*and damn you quoted me before i could recheck my post and clean up lol

MadPSIence

09-12-2005, 09:58 PM

1. Has it been done?
2. Who did it?
3. Is there a reason to them failing?
4. Was it a product that was wanted at the time?
5. Was it an electro kit (like an E-Blade) or was it just an idea or mech frame etc.

*and damn you quoted me before i could recheck my post and clean up lol

nobody friggin wants to sell stuff for mags. I'm not debating this here because it's a dead horse

*ArKfEaR*

09-12-2005, 10:01 PM

nobody friggin wants to sell stuff for mags. I'm not debating this here because it's a dead horse

This statement basically sums up the reason why its dead.

:nono:

Duzzy

09-12-2005, 10:12 PM

*ArKfEaR*

09-12-2005, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by *ArKfEaR*
Shims, O rings, spacers, springs... people dont want to do this.

They need a permanent Level 10 (or whatever the next level may be) That doesnt EVER need to be adjusted or MINORLY retuned but it needs to be easy to acess. Although, once Level 10 is set its usually golden, but sometimes just taking your mag apart for cleaning and maintainence can throw it off.

Now this is just saying mechanically.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the text I have a problem with, as highlighted in my reply. I almost read all of what you said to me but I didn't. If you can't take the time to get my name right then I really can't say I have any faith in the quality of your reply.

You say that the entire Automag needs to be redesigned because it requires maintainence... Despite the fact that you say there is only minor work to be done, despite the fact that there is an entire section of a website designated to maintaining an Automag, a forum, a CD that comes with it, and an owners group that is usually very willing to help out. If someone can't figure the basics out with all these resources then I honestly have no faith in them, it is as simple as that. I say that is stupid because it is already an incredibly cool peice of engineering that is remarkably simple when you consider what it can do.

Guess what? I have no mechanical ability what so ever. It took me hours to learn how to set up my Automag properly when I got my first one. But I didn't complain about it being too hard to maintain, I took it as a learning experience and did the best I could. Are my Automags perfectly tuned? Far from, but they don't leak, and they work.

Appreciate the quality that you get and the lack of maintainence it takes to keep it. You want a perfect marker that never needs to be taken care of? If this is the case then Intimidators should be re-designed so that people don't have to lube the ram shaft. Or grease the o-rings. Spyders have cup seals that go bad, and so do most STBB markers... Paint occasionally breaks in the barrel...

End of story.

I've said my piece, I even apologized because I knew my first post wouldn't come across as friendly. And if after all that you still want to be mad and unhappy I cannot help you. For my part I am done. If you want to continue go ahead, but it will be a monologue to the forum.

CoolHand, good post.

Sorry about the typo, it wasnt because i didnt know how to spell your name (its just the u is next to the i ;)) and I believe I said it a second time with proper spelling btw.

Either or I totally agree with you on the learning aspect and very well get what your trying to get across. As well as definitley being right that no gun can be tuned to perfection including yours or mine. I'm just saying they took IDEAS that were basically perfect, but didn't implement them to the point where they could become perfect. Like basically doing a quick fix or in less than kinder words half-assed. Sure its gonna work, sure its gonna do what its suppose to but is everyone going to have the same results?

Thats all I was saying, I wasnt getting offensive in any of my posts or intentionally being unfriendly just I enjoy debating so when I get excited it just seems I'm taking an assertive stance.

Spyders - your completley right about them but then again we all know the prices of spyders and who the people are buying spyders. They basically can handle not having the best quality because most of there guns are under $200 to begin with anyway, so people dont expect as much.

Arkfear.

PS: Just for giggles, point yourself to the "The thing u dislike about mags..." thread by KillingSpree and scroll down and look what mag owners have to say about there own guns... :rolleyes:

Glickman

09-12-2005, 10:36 PM

This is the text I have a problem with, as highlighted in my reply. I almost read all of what you said to me but I didn't. If you can't take the time to get my name right then I really can't say I have any faith in the quality of your reply.

Personal attacks are an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. :D (you dont see me nit-picking your incorrect usage of "piece" instead of "peace" do you? ;) )

Guess what? I have no mechanical ability what so ever. It took me hours to learn how to set up my Automag properly when I got my first one. But I didn't complain about it being too hard to maintain, I took it as a learning experience and did the best I could. Are my Automags perfectly tuned? Far from, but they don't leak, and they work.

You may not complain, but that doesnt mean on the whole it is sound business-wise. i never heard of a advertisement for a gun stating "mechanical ability required." (im not saying they do, but im taking it out of example of your text)

in the end, you could have the BEST product ever, but without sound business practices, theres no chance.

Duzzy

09-12-2005, 10:47 PM

Personal attacks are an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. :D (you dont see me nit-picking your incorrect usage of "piece" instead of "peace" do you? ;) )

If that's the worst I have done then it isn't much to complain about. Although you will have to point me in the right direction because I can't find where I would have used "peace" in any of my posts.

And the reason I took "Dizzy" as a personal attack is because people do that. They purposely mispronounce my nickname as "doosey" or "dizzy" or even "dummy" so I usually assume the worst. Not the best thing to do but it is something I admit that I do that is not good.

So I guess both of us have run out of money a few times in this thread eh? ;)

You may not complain, but that doesnt mean on the whole it is sound business-wise. i never heard of a advertisement for a gun stating "mechanical ability required." (im not saying they do, but im taking it out of example of your text)

in the end, you could have the BEST product ever, but without sound business practices, theres no chance.

I have to ask why do you keep bringing up business? Honestly... Everytime you reply to me you bring it up and I don't ever mention it.

CoolHand

09-12-2005, 10:52 PM

See, this is what I am talking about.

I'm not threatening anyone, I am citing an example (one that is absolutely pertinent to the question at hand).

You know what? It wasn't a smart business decision. I decided to do the frames as a favor the Mag'ers here on AO. Why the hell would I do that? Because I got my start here. I have since branched out into other markets, but the Mag community gave me my start. I'll always have a soft spot for the Mag, and the guys who defend them ruthlessly.

That's why I did it. Did it do any good? Not one damned bit.

What it shows me, is that people don't actually want a good EFrame, they want something to ***** about. Either that, or I really just missed the boat with this and everyone just doesn't want my version of it. Whatever the reason, the fact is that despite all the blowing, there isn't much of a market for the super Mag. It just isn't there. If I can't find enough customers to move 25 of the things, why in god's name would PE or anyone bother to build one? I mean really, you guys are proving my point for me.

No one outside of this forum cares about the Mag anymore. (at least as far as companies go). To think otherwise is to delude yourselves.

That it is my frame is irrelevant. The fact remains that the parts are there, and no one wants them, yet everyone constantly talks about the need for a good EFrame. Its all just hot air.

That, or everyone just hates me.

Its very easy to just set back and say "That was a bad decision, you suck at business." instead of realizing that BECAUSE its a bad decision, NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT. If you honestly think that I just screwed up, and PE will swoop in and make you a $200 EFrame, and magically save the Mag, you're living in a fantasy world.

I did what I did for the community, and it backfired. Your rubbing my face in it is not only in very poor taste, but rather short sighted, and smacks of spite. If you run me off, you are left with one Mag parts vendor, and that's never good for the market.

Go ahead and hoot at my folly, at actually trying to give you guys what you asked for. Remember how much fun you had raking me over, when you're back to only having parts in gloss black, and everyone's markers look alike again.

Glickman

09-12-2005, 10:55 PM

I have to ask why do you keep bringing up business? Honestly... Everytime you reply to me you bring it up and I don't ever mention it.

this thread is on, "the one thing that could save automags."

to me, and others as you see, its a sound way of thinking of how to run a business. you comment on how you dont agree that companies need to make things "idiot proof," but i believe thats an important part of business ethics, which i believe is the only thing that can save the automag.

Duzzy

09-12-2005, 11:01 PM

Hey a CoolHand, I don't think anyone wa directing anything at you. I could be wrong, but that isn't the impression I got.

I'm sorry that your frame didn't turn out, and to be honest I wouldn't mind owning one. But I can't justify it. Mainly because the DevilMag I just got probably won't sell for enough to buy one and I need to concentrate on college right now. If I could I would have you mount it on my X-mag body just so I could keep the interchangable feeds and the sexy look. But it isn't a reality for me at this time.

I think part of the problem with sales for you may be the wait and frustration associated with the Pnuematic Trigger Frames and the DevilMags. People don't want to wait, and from what I have seen they don't care about what happens, or what problems exist as long as they get their stuff on time. But with all the negative comments directed at GA Devil, and the disappointment and waiting surrounding the PnueFrame I can't say that I am surprised. That being said I apologize for the negativity and hope that you can at least regain the money spent getting it off the ground.

But like I said, I don't think anyone was personally going after you, and I hope you didn't take any of my comments to be directed towards you because they weren't.

*Edit*

Glickman-

My point is more along the lines that companies can't make anything idiot proof so expecting them to is foolish at best...

Sure it would be nice if you could run over a marker with a 10 ton truck but is it reasonable to expect a manufacturer to make it like that? Might be a bad example but it is late.

Glickman

09-12-2005, 11:07 PM

Its very easy to just set back and say "That was a bad decision, you suck at business." instead of realizing that BECAUSE its a bad decision, NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT. If you honestly think that I just screwed up, and PE will swoop in and make you a $200 EFrame, and magically save the Mag, you're living in a fantasy world.

yea its easy to sit back and say that, but personally i dont think there is any company that will "swoop" in to save the mag. if you want to interpret that as me saying that its not worth "saving," go ahead, i guess in a sense thats what im saying. As i said above, i think the automag needs to be managed with business sense, but if theres no chance for that, then i dont believe theres anything that will "save" the mag.

I did what I did for the community, and it backfired. Your rubbing my face in it is not only in very poor taste, but rather short sighted, and smacks of spite. If you run me off, you are left with one Mag parts vendor, and that's never good for the market.

Go ahead and hoot at my folly, at actually trying to give you guys what you asked for. Remember how much fun you had raking me over, when you're back to only having parts in gloss black, and everyone's marke

i stated my belief, i did not "rub" anything in your face, nor will i apologize for your way of thinking, but do not mistake my critique for poor taste. I dont spite you, i did not ask for your product then to decide not to invest in it, and obviously noone here is interested in "running you off."

but everyone hates you right? because 1 or 2 people critiqued your business ethics, im sorry, ill try to refrain from posting my opinion on the internet anymore

-------------

My point is more along the lines that companies can't make anything idiot proof so expecting them to is foolish at best...
Sure it would be nice if you could run over a marker with a 10 ton truck but is it reasonable to expect a manufacturer to make it like that? Might be a bad example but it is late.

heh yes it is getting late. It is foolish to expect someone to make something "idiot proof," but i do believe in "idiot resistant" (i guess thats a better word) as being more beneficial to a product

manike

09-12-2005, 11:14 PM

I think AO has always been one of the toughest places to get realistic input into the validity of an Automag related project.

I have no doubt that even if PE did make a frame for the mag it would have nowhere near the impact of the frame for the Autococker. The mag was on a decline in comparison to the autococker way before electronic frames were available for either.

The only thing that could save automags is a radical shake up, of the brand and company. I don't see that happening, and as much as I love mags, I fear it is too late.

CoolHand

09-12-2005, 11:17 PM

It's not the peoples fault or the communities fault; it’s simply the fact that he’s laying his trust solely on the people of an INTERNET PAINTBALL FORUM. That’s just bad judgment; never-the-less would be a simple business choice that almost any smart business man wouldn’t make.

Now if he were to distribute on pbnation.com, along with going to PSP/NPPL events and getting some sort of representation/coverage you might have a much better chance of getting your name out.

I didn't want to go to PBN, because I did this for AO. No one else. Certainly not me. The profit margin on these is absolutely ridiculously small. I'd be happy just to break even, and get to see people enjoying these things.

...Even more so sending the idea to a company and possibly seeing if they want to buy it off you, They obviously are going to market it much better than you can.

Riiiiiight. Keep telling yourself that. The only way PE could take this idea and make it better would be to build them in a big enough volume to get the price down. Guess what? They couldn't sell them in that volume, they'd lose their asses too. Its not because I'm a small company, its because people don't want the product, or they don't want it bad enough to pay what it costs. They want super Mag performance, but at ION prices. It just ain't gonna happen folks.

Along with that is just obvious things, like MAKING SURE EVERYONE WHO SAYS THEY WANTS WANT puts in deposit, therefore you can always make your money back on parts. The only other thing you can do is try to pump them out as quickly as possible to keep the consumer happy. Otherwise people start complaining ex. All the guys doing custom Turtle body work which they eventually drifted away because so many people said OH he took my money, he took too long blah blah blah.

Yeah, get a deposit for a project that is 17 weeks out. That would have went over well. Oh wait, I DID! I got four (4) people, out of the literally hundreds that emailed me, posted, and PM'ed to say they wanted one. Just look at the PnueMag thread. 500 some odd "I want it now!" votes, and I bet they sell less than a hundred of them, if they ever do them at all. Those guys at PTP know the score just like I do, but they have been crapped on by Mag'ers for so many years, that I doubt very seriously if they would take on a marginal project simply out of the good of their hearts. If I would have gotten a hundred preorders, and it actually took 17 weeks like I projected, I would have been called a thief, and all of you arm chair business execs would have been decrying my horrible business practices because I took money and didn't deliver a product in a timely fashion (never mind that I told them up front). Its a no win with you guys. I zig, you say I should have zagged, I zag, you say I should have zigged. Its really easy to second guess someone once its all over, its damned hard to make the call in the beginning. What all of this is teaching me, is to hell with sentiment. Screw all that loyalty crap. Its marginal? Screw it. Let someone else do it.

Finally make sure its something you can handle doing mentally and financially, if then don’t even bother.

Oh, thanks, you have just saved my business. You should seriously start a consulting company. I bet you could be a billionaire. There is not a :rolleyes: big enough for that statement. Hell, even Mango's rolleyes barf smiley won't cut it.

:cheers:

I love paintball the game, I hate paintball the business. Why, you ask? Because of the customers. Teen aged industrialists every one. They all know exactly what I am doing wrong, and how to fix my problems, never mind the fact that they've never been in the same position, nor have they ever had their own money on the line. Hell, they're the same guys selling off markers for $600 (the very same ones they paid $1800 for three months before), because the new one is better . . . . . . . . somehow.

You got it all figured out do you? Then buy the equipment, and put me out of business.

Hell, I'll sell the whole shop here, right now. Go get your checkbook, I'll wait.

:tard:

CoolHand

09-12-2005, 11:28 PM

but everyone hates you right? because 1 or 2 people critiqued your business ethics, im sorry, ill try to refrain from posting my opinion on the internet anymore

I guess my sarcasm was lost on you. I should have used a smiley.

I don't think anyone hates me (or rather most don't). And I don't take criticism as a sign of such. I do think that you come off a tad pompous in the delivery of said critique though. If stating your opinion always makes you sound pompous (as in there isn't anything you can do about it), I guess that's the hazard of you speaking up. I make an *** of myself on a regular basis, welcome to the club.

There isn't anything wrong with my business ethics. Maybe I guide my business a bit too much by heart, or by what I want to do, but I don't have any problems with ethics. I'm not a thief, and I don't lie about what my stuff can do. Much past that, what more can you ask?

What I am trying to illustrate is not that no one likes me, or that I suck at business, or whatever, but rather that Mag'ers seem to be stuck in a cycle of crying "God we need this!" and then forgetting about it once its done.

Its like you guys (and PB'er in general) have a massive case of product ADD.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is enough Ritalin in the world to fix it.

Duzzy

09-12-2005, 11:45 PM

I think they want the Automag to become a household name again. That is honestly all I think people want.

They want Automags to be able to "compete" in the hopes that more people will use them, recognize them, and in the end somehow magically AGD will rise from the ashes and become "the great company it once was".

Call me cynical, but I don't think most people wanted anything other than the return of the Automags status. I mean, everyone praises all the new products and innovations but how many of those people buy them?

I see it as, "Well I don't need that, and don't want to pay for it, but if it will make Automags come back I will praise it to the sky. Then not only will people know what my marker is, but they won't confuse it with a shocker, and everyone will want one."

MadPSIence

09-13-2005, 12:10 AM

Ryan I officially salute you.. you made me realize something. It's not mags I like, it's people like you who do something special to make a gun, or part more valuable by putting your neck out to produce something awesome.

If you drop the mag thing I think you can still expect my business in the future.

:hail:

Beemer

09-13-2005, 02:08 AM

Some Good discussion Here and to many good quotes to list. :cool:

To keep it short I agree and disagree with ya all. :eek:

Hey CoolHand rock on and stay true, as you have, to yourself. :cheers:

The only thing that could save automags is a radical shake up, of the brand and company. I don't see that happening, and as much as I love mags, I fear it is too late.

Or a radical shake up of the Industry and the Manufactuers that would affect AGD the least and or benefit. :ninja: There is no fear :nono:

and in the end somehow magically AGD will rise from the ashes and become "the great company it once was".

It doesnt have to become and it isnt once was. It still IS. http://www.airgun.com/ The history speaks for itself doesnt it?

Peace Out

___________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

Maggot6

09-13-2005, 05:43 AM

Coolhands post in the second page of this needs to be put in a serperate thread, possibly stickied.

It's a shame that I don't want any other electro, otherwise coolhands frane would be my first bet, then off to AKA or MacDev....And well, by the time I will want another electro, coolhand will probably reply to my email asking him saying "to bad, all the other maggers , uh, *farted* it up for you"....

Teamslayer76

09-13-2005, 06:39 AM

Coolhands post in the second page of this needs to be put in a serperate thread, possibly stickied. :headbang:
Amen to that.

I just hope this doesnt slow the process of makeing these frames.I'm really looking foward to seeing these put out. I'd love to see this happen as well as many many others. Also about not knowing or caring about the products outside of this forum, I actually found Logicpaintball.com before I found AO. I saw it from looking at a vert frame that said logic...well it just happened to be for a Mag.

With even more hope,
Teamslayer

Duzzy

09-13-2005, 10:05 AM

It doesnt have to become and it isnt once was. It still IS. http://www.airgun.com/ The history speaks for itself doesnt it?

I'm speaking in terms of people's perceptions. And the majority of people outside AO don't think that AGD is a great company if they even know what it is...

CoolHand

09-13-2005, 02:18 PM

:headbang:
Amen to that.

I just hope this doesnt slow the process of makeing these frames.I'm really looking foward to seeing these put out. I'd love to see this happen as well as many many others. Also about not knowing or caring about the products outside of this forum, I actually found Logicpaintball.com before I found AO. I saw it from looking at a vert frame that said logic...well it just happened to be for a Mag.

With even more hope,
Teamslayer

Nah, it won't slow me down. Hell, I'm committed now, I've got all the parts made. All I'm short right now is boards, and this argument isn't disturbing that one bit.

I was just kinda grumpy last night, and I have been seeing those "We need an EFrame!" posts for weeks now, while my project founders. It just pissed me off. I'm calmer now. :rofl:

Felt good to blow off some steam though.

Have a good one (all of you, even the guys I was arguing with :cheers: )

MadPSIence

09-13-2005, 02:40 PM

Ryan I think you should be president of AGD, lol.

CoolHand

09-13-2005, 02:49 PM

Ryan I think you should be president of AGD, lol.

I'll pass on that thanks. I've got enough troubles keeping up with what little business I have now. AGD may be small for an OEM, but they are loads bigger than me. I don't think I could handle Zupe's job.

Thanks for the vote of confidence though.

Carbon

09-13-2005, 03:33 PM

the only thing "saving" Mags is this website.

Glickman

09-13-2005, 04:08 PM

the only thing "saving" Mags is this website.

A-FREAKING-MEN to that! :clap:

Jaan

09-13-2005, 09:25 PM

You don't really get it, do you?Man, that just went right over your head huh? Wow.

LONEWOLFOO1

09-14-2005, 07:33 PM

i think they are already doing it i look at the mag like a porches there expensive and they can perform but you don't buy a porches because its the fastest car, a mitsubishi evo 9 can outperform a porches and its the quarter of the price. but you buy it to be part of a small group nothing more nothing less. i here automags are doing well in the scenerio market. i like the way my automag is its my porche i don't want everybody and there monther owning one just a select few that want to be different. plus from what i notice most ao owners are cool people. i don't want everybody haveing one then i can't tell the pricks from the good guys.

i don't want no big marketing and hype takeing place i will say this you don't find your automag your automag finds you.

but then again i know i am weird i own apple computer, drive a nx2000, and ride a trikke.

r-unit

09-14-2005, 07:50 PM

ryan (coolhand)

*cough* maybe you should look into making parts for the freestyle, timmy, or matrix *cough*

JKR

09-14-2005, 07:58 PM

The one thing that can save Automags?

A marketplace that isn't littered with mindless drones who value form over function.

warbeak2099

09-14-2005, 08:03 PM

I'm going to come right out and apologize to Ryan. I'm one of the people who has cried out for a good eframe w/ eyes for a long time. I didn't purchase the EM Ripper however. The reason I didn't is the simple fact that I couldn't. I just don't have the money. If I did I'd order one in a heartbeat. The reason I cried out for this frame is because it's a good idea and I figured that a lot of other people would be able to afford it. Not everyone on this forum is a highschool or college student. A lot of you other maggers are adults with careers.

The EM Ripper is still an awesome product and does make the mag able to compete again. However, the image just isn't there. People outside of AO don't know about the Ripper. People won't buy it just because it's a mag. Perhaps marketing the mag and the frame along with the devilframe to outsiders will do something. Maybe people who still think the mag is a slow, heavy peice of crap need to see these things shooting. Coming out with new products within AO will never help mags expand back into the popular scene. Having Warpig run an article on the new product will. Having the owners post on Pbnation and other forums will. Having an article in APG or Facefull will help.

Once again, I apologize for my involvement in the EM Ripper. In the future I'll let the people who can afford the product when it comes out be in charge of asking for it to be developed. I just had hoped that it would bring the mag back. However, I believe with marketing and such, the EM Ripper and the DevilMag can do that. Once again, if it's only made known to AO'ers, then it won't do a damn thing. But if we market these things as new improvements that can in fact make the mag a competitive, high-end gun again. I think it will help. Anyone see what I'm saying? Coolhand, you agree? Would you be adverse to sending the information to Warpig?

Glickman

09-14-2005, 08:12 PM

CoolHand

09-14-2005, 08:23 PM

I'm not opposed to making press releases and such, but I have a few phobias:

1) I have a general fear that for some reason it won't live up to my design expectations. I don't mind too much looking like an *** in front of you guys, because you've all seen most of the development, but to announce my folly to the world is a bit much to handle. I have tested and measured, and tested again, but you know Murphy. For this reason I wanted to wait until I had production parts in my hands, and a production model that had been tested. Once I am sure it is what I designed, THEN make the press release.

2) I hate lawyers. I hate dealing with them. But most of all, I hate getting letters from them. I doubt very seriously that SP would be worried about me enough to spend the money to have a C&D sent my way, but at the same time, its probably best if I don't just wave it in their faces. Now, maybe I have nothing to worry about, since I'm not the one doing the boards, or now that WDP is in the mix maybe SP is less about the whacking with lawsuits (especially now that DYE has a hold of them). But, just because the bull is asleep, that does not mean that its OK to cut through his field (You know, because he might wake up.). Publicity is a double edged sword. It will help sell more product, but it may also put your product on the desks of people you'd just as soon not see it.

I mean, lets face it. This project isn't big enough to even get noticed by SP, and then, they'd have to be the biggest ******** in recorded history to go after me for it. BUT, at the same time, that is a big steaming pile of BS that I don't need. So how far do you go? Send to WarPig, 68Cal, and FON, and hope them don't notice/care, or do you do the word of mouth thing and hope you don't get stuck with 75% of the batch?

Its a tough call, I will tell you that.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do, to tell you the truth. Being too successful is just as bad (or worse) than being a failure IMO. What happens if I do a press release or five, and sell 10X as many as I thought I would? I'm not sure I could handle 250 orders for these things.

warbeak2099

09-15-2005, 06:41 AM

True, hhrrrmm...

Maybe don't go as big as a press release. Just show it on pbnation. That couldn't hurt. I just think people outside of the mag world need to see these "super frames" for mags.

SCpoloRicker

09-15-2005, 10:24 AM

re: too big is a problem

No, it is not. I'd recommend pushing it as much as you can. After you're sure it works of course. ;)

/6% standard agents fee?

Miscue

09-17-2005, 03:04 PM

The Automag/EMag/XMag offers little to no real-world technological advantages over other modern markers. The recharge rate is a moot point... as well as its abilities as a mechanical marker.

It is also not competitively priced... partly because the actual cost to make it is relatively high.

The market has changed long ago... since AGD was very popular. What used to work for AGD will not work now. Your 16 year old friends will not be impressed by your AGD marker... they will have negative comments about it (if they even know what your gun is). This makes you feel bad, so you go get a marker deemed cool by your peers. Local paintball shop people also will not have positive things to say about AGD markers... for one, they don't make as much money off of them.

Although I personally find this a non-issue... other markers can get more shots off a tank... and people worry about this. Also, it is not a low-pressure marker... and customers will never understand that this does not mean that it is better...

Even if AGD completely redefined itself... and created some new product that embraced all the latest fads... the market is already hostile and saturated... most of the effort would have to be spent on marketing and stuff... rather than technology.

The target audiences do not understand technology or what not. They understand popularity and fads. Paintball has become a fashion show... AGD would have to fully embrace this. But if they did... they would distance themselves from current loyal followers... somewhat.

Otherwise... they're going to stay a niche company... kinda like Palmers. And... is that a bad thing? There is nothing preventing your or I from buying a kick-arse custom Mag... that shoots as well as the other markers out there. So everybody doesn't shoot one... who cares? You can still get your own stuff! And... your marker will be more unique... and not just one of the many, many Timmys, Angels, Matrixes, and such.

CoolHand

09-17-2005, 03:18 PM

Well said 'Cue.

tolley

09-17-2005, 08:28 PM

My mags rock, big time! None of them need saving. There seems to be plenty of parts available used and new, on this forum, ebay, pbclassifieds, etc. And I really like having a marker that the young guns have never seen before.

Lohman446

09-17-2005, 08:40 PM

Otherwise... they're going to stay a niche company... kinda like Palmers. And... is that a bad thing? There is nothing preventing your or I from buying a kick-arse custom Mag... that shoots as well as the other markers out there. So everybody doesn't shoot one... who cares? You can still get your own stuff! And... your marker will be more unique... and not just one of the many, many Timmys, Angels, Matrixes, and such.

'Cue I think you said this very well, and let me add something.

The goal of any privately owned company is whatever the owners set to be that goal - that is also true of public companies to some degree but shareholders vote about money, seldom anything else.

That being said, if the goal of TK or Dave Zupe or whoever owns AGD and the patents at this time is to support them to whatever lifestyle tehy deem fit, to be profitable, or to just be there for old customers who have helped them get where they are, then they need not worry about being some super selling marker. Too often people see profit as the ultimate goal of a company and find it hard to beleive that many times private business owners are there for something else. Many private business owners, if one takes into consideration the hours they work both physically and mentally, could make far more working for a large corporation without nearly as much risk. They work for themselves for other reasons. Who are we to define what AGD's goals should be? If being a niche company will fufill the goals of the owners - great.