What happened to FreeFlow!?

[ottomobile]

I went to go buy a Lotus kit from FreeFlow and their site said they are belly-up! This sucks, all the best in paintball are drying up. KAPP, TomK, the old AKA and now FreeFlow. Even Shocktech is going straight Bob Long or SP. This is Lame...

[Muzikman]

Well, welcome to big business. Just wait until you can buy Brass Eagle, Dye and Smart Parts gear and NOTHING ELSE.

[ottomobile]

Guess I'd better hang on to my RT MAG and my slide trigger A/C...

[dahoeb]

yeup, paintball is starting to grow a very vicious business side.

so i'm not trading in my "precious" (my mag) for anything. maybe in like 30 years, when i'm old and my mag is a collectable, i'll trade it in for something toward the figure of $450,239 and 44cents. thats right. you heard me.

[master_alexander]

Well, welcome to big business. Just wait until you can buy Brass Eagle, Dye and Smart Parts gear and NOTHING ELSE.


what about kingman? or are they already owned by somebody...

get what you want while you can.

[68magOwner]

STD is my favorite company as of late, since, it is preety much the good parts of old AKA.

[Muzikman]

what about kingman? or are they already owned by somebody...

get what you want while you can.


I don't see kingman lasting until the end. I see the BE, WDP, JT, Viewloader monster taking over the Spyder market.

I think maybe National Might make it through all this too.

[ottomobile]

Kingman went bad years ago. Its been about a decade since any of their markers were made in america.
WORR's gone to the dark side. Wait, weren't they always the dark side for mag-men? :D 10 years from now the only old school mechanical maker will be Palmer!


I still think all AGD needs to do is slap a fancy new body and a hyperframe on the mag and everyone will think its a high end ION and go buy one!


Am I the only one who thinks the the ION and Shocker and Mag rip-offs? The only difference is that SP uses a super expensive pneumatic system to return the bolt and AGD went with an uber reliable super simple spring. I think AGD should be the ones suing SP for patent infringment. After all, if SP can sue for 'inventing' electros, AGD can sue for inventing blow-forward markers.

[Muzikman]

Seeing as the operation of an Ion and Shocker are totally different than a mag, I don't see them as a "Mag Rip-off".

[MadPSIence]

yeup, paintball is starting to grow a very vicious business side.

so i'm not trading in my "precious" (my mag) for anything. maybe in like 30 years, when i'm old and my mag is a collectable, i'll trade it in for something toward the figure of $450,239 and 44cents. thats right. you heard me.


Starting to?

SP has already teabagged AKA and AGD so hard that AKA is crippled and people are leaving to STD. AGD has to sit and watch waiting for legal issues to clear up... Bud Orr sold out and imho the day of highend cockers is now gone..

Powerlyte ditched the Isis to someone else. Why? They won't say it but the Isis was too similar to the ion according to SP and they made the same "suggestion" as they made to AGD.

[Target Practice]

Seeing as the operation of an Ion and Shocker are totally different than a mag, I don't see them as a "Mag Rip-off".

But that doesn't MATTER, remeber?

[Duzzy]

SP has already teabagged AKA and AGD so hard that AKA is crippled and people are leaving to STD. AGD has to sit and watch waiting for legal issues to clear up... Bud Orr sold out and imho the day of highend cockers is now gone..


I don't think people are leaving AKA because of SP. From my understanding it had to do with management issues. Besides, AKA is working on a new gun so leaving for that reason wouldn't make any sense.
(Before anyone decides to ask, I don't know, and the people who do aren't telling.)

And would you really consider WGP to be the makers of "high end" autocockers? I mean compared to BBT and Belsales (sp?)? Even early Shocktech or AKA?

[phantomhitman]

I still think all AGD needs to do is slap a fancy new body and a hyperframe on the mag and everyone will think its a high end ION and go buy one!


not going to happen. AGD does make hig quailty guns, I will give them that. But they would never be able to put together a gun near the ions market. There are too many high quailty parts, and the hyperframe is dead. People will just ignore agd anyways, they have been out of the "scene" for too long. Scenario is where agd is at.

[ottomobile]

Yeah, the tourney market has gone all bling. It doesn't matter if AGD shoots faster or more acurate than a Timmy or Ego, unless its got batteries and fancy milling it won't sell... Plus too many people bought into the low pressure bull...

[phantomhitman]

No, agd just didnt cater to the tourney crowd. They stayed true to their "owners". That is a great thing, but that doesnt sell guns. Now the big companies have bigger advertising budgets, r&d budgets, and can risk more. Simple put, people like the zero kick, huge aftermarket parts, new gun status, etc of the newer guns.

[Lohman446]

No, agd just didnt cater to the tourney crowd. They stayed true to their "owners". That is a great thing, but that doesnt sell guns. Now the big companies have bigger advertising budgets, r&d budgets, and can risk more. Simple put, people like the zero kick, huge aftermarket parts, new gun status, etc of the newer guns.

Their owners were once the tournament players who looked to AGD for the newest and greatest cutting edge marker. Don't give me the "Mags never tried to be the best, newest and greatest" line..

[phantomhitman]

I stand behind agd, they make great guns. Last forever, take some getting used to as far as maintenance goes but that is ok. I am playing devils advocate in this post.

So I should use the slower, heavier, bigger profile gun, bulkier trigger, no ace system, high pressure line then? The original software was slow, and the trigger system IS bulky without a doubt. You can play with magnets, shorten this, lube that, add shims here, but guess what-RT kicks in=illegal gun. The x came along and did ok, nice looking marker (still hate the air line), had an ok ace and level 10. By then ace was better elsewhere, low pressure hype was kicking in, timmys and trixs started to raise their heads.

Come on, agd didnt have the product to compete. Wether they couldnt compete with the hype, marketing, bigger ad budgets, or whatever the reason you choose they are not popular anymore. You can have the fastest recharging valve ont eh planet, but if the gun cannot get near that speed there is no need for a vavle that fast. It could be the ignorant kids nowadays with their low pressure, ramping/bouncing, light and fast as hell guns, a marker that actually looks good (oh my god heaven forbid that). But guess, back in the good ole days there were ONLY 2 guns, cocker and mags. That is why they are "enemies", they had no other competition. When all of the other guys started showing up they both dwindelled, eblades saved the cocker as far as main stream goes. Mags stayed the same, level 10 came around but it was too late. They already had a reputation for chopping/shortstroking, the image stayed the same, no cool looking bodies or overhyped shenanigans, just good ole agd.

Before you go off saying look at all of the bodies, parts, options, innovation now: it is too late. AGD needed it years ago when airball took over the "popular" paintball game.

[ottomobile]

I don't know where you play but there is no lower profile marker than my warped RT and at PEVs it perfectly tournement legal. Not to mention, semi is semi. I can shot my RT as fast or faster than my Impulse, Angel or E1. And if you study physics, high pressure mags are more efficient than low pressure anything else. Its just the way it was designed. My MAG required just about no maintenance. I keep it clean, thats all. ACE/lvl 10 as long as you don't chop it doesn't matter.

But alas, my opinion is in the minority and I have to admit my mag is cool but doesn't stand a chance in a beauty competition...

I'm all for electros, but its just sad to see my favorite companies go down the tubes to the likes of SP, DYE and Bobs expensive Spyders....

[phantomhitman]

I don't know where you play but there is no lower profile marker than my warped RT and at PEVs it perfectly tournement legal. Not to mention, semi is semi. I can shot my RT as fast or faster than my Impulse, Angel or E1. And if you study physics, high pressure mags are more efficient than low pressure anything else.

I said i was playing devils advocate, very first sentence. Every single word I said seems to tbe the "main stream" ideas, not mine. Guns in my area range from crap, to crappier crap, to dm5, dmc, emag, ego, etc, I have played with shot them all. I know low pressure is mostly hype, even though my dm5 can back off of a ball also with alot less pressure then either of my level 10 mags. It is a gas hog (not as bad as my mag) though, but I get all day air.....so problem solved. My point is that the new generation is not like the old, and for whatever reason agd is just not popular anymore.

ps-if you can shoot your rt as fast as your imp,angel, etc you need to sell all of your electros.

[ottomobile]

You are right, I was cranky last night. Guess I'm just getting a little too old. :cool:

I got my Classic RT with 900 psi going in and I'm still perfecting it, but its definitly faster. I think I'm faster on it than my electros because of the feedback. My electro really don't have much feel in the trigger so when I'm wear gloves its difficult to feel the rythm. My mechanicals are still light, but heavier than electros so while I can't snap shoot as fast yet, I'm definitly faster on the long streams.
But then again I've never been clocked so for all I know I only shoot 5-6 rounds a second! :eek:


I think paintball is like the street car world. People that have been around like big engines, rear wheel drive and know no fuel injection can be a pair of Holly Double Pumpers! But all the kids today think a Honda Civic with nitro is the bomb...
But hey, its fun bashing the new guns and reminicing about the good old days! ;-)

PS - I've got one electro left, an Impulse. Wanna buy it?

[phantomhitman]

its all good, i hate some guns, some hype, and even some thigns that have been around the sport for forever. no thanks on the impulse, i got enough stuff to worry about now. it is fine to have rivalries though.

[stop whining buy a mag]

I stand behind agd, they make great guns. Last forever, take some getting used to as far as maintenance goes but that is ok. I am playing devils advocate in this post.

So I should use the slower, heavier, bigger profile gun, bulkier trigger, no ace system, high pressure line then? The original software was slow, and the trigger system IS bulky without a doubt. You can play with magnets, shorten this, lube that, add shims here, but guess what-RT kicks in=illegal gun. The x came along and did ok, nice looking marker (still hate the air line), had an ok ace and level 10. By then ace was better elsewhere, low pressure hype was kicking in, timmys and trixs started to raise their heads.

Come on, agd didnt have the product to compete. Wether they couldnt compete with the hype, marketing, bigger ad budgets, or whatever the reason you choose they are not popular anymore. You can have the fastest recharging valve ont eh planet, but if the gun cannot get near that speed there is no need for a vavle that fast. It could be the ignorant kids nowadays with their low pressure, ramping/bouncing, light and fast as hell guns, a marker that actually looks good (oh my god heaven forbid that). But guess, back in the good ole days there were ONLY 2 guns, cocker and mags. That is why they are "enemies", they had no other competition. When all of the other guys started showing up they both dwindelled, eblades saved the cocker as far as main stream goes. Mags stayed the same, level 10 came around but it was too late. They already had a reputation for chopping/shortstroking, the image stayed the same, no cool looking bodies or overhyped shenanigans, just good ole agd.

Before you go off saying look at all of the bodies, parts, options, innovation now: it is too late. AGD needed it years ago when airball took over the "popular" paintball game.

Why do you ignoratnly ramble? AGD was top of the line all the way up to about 2002. In the early 90's it was all mags and cockers. Yeah there were other guns out there, but when it came down to tournaments (old school) people were cool if they had a mag or cocker. The profile on a mag beats just about any other gun (besides small pumps or pistols). My DM4 has a rather tall profile and is around the same weight as my old ULE E-mag.

The magnetic trigger system is just pure genious. You could get the pull ANY way you like it. It took me quite a while to start shooting guns with microswitches. I'm so used to getting a pull as light as I want, that any gun that comes stock with a heavy trigger switch is unappealing to me.

Now the RT part is easily fixed with an E/X-mag. All you have to do is take out the trigger rod. If your using an RT mag with a ULT, all you have to do is break in your mag and play with it enough that you know it won't bounce.

I still believe the Predator board will solve the problems of the E/X-mags not being fast enough or having modes of fire. I have a feeling we'll start seeing people with Predator boarded X-Mags playing in tournaments.

[Thordic]

Yeah, while we are on this topic, wtf did happen to KAPP? They went from a fairly big company to dissapearing, and I never heard a word about it. Maybe its just me but they don't seem to be around like they used to be, even if they aren't out of business.

[BigEvil]

Yeah, while we are on this topic, wtf did happen to KAPP? They went from a fairly big company to dissapearing, and I never heard a word about it. Maybe its just me but they don't seem to be around like they used to be, even if they aren't out of business.


WOW I completely forgot about those guys. I guess the market for cocker parts dried up :eek:

[phantomhitman]

Why do you ignoratnly ramble? AGD was top of the line all the way up to about 2002.

Here is my opinion on the matter. The emag is a heavy gun, period. That is without a tank, hopper, lines, fittings, drops, asas, etc. The stock trigger is bulky and very hard to walk. There is the need for an air line on the side thereby increasing the profile. People use the rt trigger in order to "keep up" with todays markers, or that is the excuse they give. I hate people on the other side of the electro war also, the ones that ramp, low debounce, low amb, hidden software codes. But, you know for a fact people use the hybrid feature, or just setup the gun to bounce, more often than not, so dont kid yourself or anyone else about all agd people being saints.
And to top it off I WAS PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE. That means that I am just saying the comments all of the little kiddies and ignorant people are saying about mags today, not what I think. You see the reaction, I get pointed out as ignorant (rightfully so). My devilmag is just as light as most pl shockers and faster, I also have a few mech mags, a dm5, and an eblade. I like the tight profile the devil gives me, but guess what, it is not an agd product. The emag was the gun aimed at tourney play, and for whatever reason you want to chose (heavy, uncool, ugly, slow software, bouncing issues, ignorant refs, to name a few) they didnt catch on. I have to disagree that mags were top of the line up to 2002, they were fading in the mid 90s. I hope that I eat my words and that mags make it back up to the #1 spot, but I dont see that ever happening. It would be great to see an all new agd gun.

/+10flamearmor

[dahoeb]

i just can't believe you actually think the hose on the side of the marker actually increases the profile. wow,if thats all it takes to turn someone away from a marker...

i understand that you were just trying to help us all see a different side of the coin n all, some of the points i think were a little ridiculous. i don't know whether you were basing them on your personal opinions or what you've heard the agg kids say. like the trigger for example, i just can't see why some people think its hard. the fastest and easiest to walk markers i've ever shot have been emags. just like any other marker, the trigger is adjustable so if you can't walk at first, dun dun dun! ADJUST THE TRIGGER! it takes a whole 5 minutes.

for the weight of an emag, yeah they can be pretty heavy i guess. when you get it ul'ed its not so bad. but its a paintball marker, not a fragile little toy. if its got a little heft to it, oh well.

as for the ace software in the xmag, and the lack of it in other mags i dont' see as a flaw. if they really needed eyes that bad i'm sure the emags wouldve got it a long time ago. with the LX, chops become so rare (albeit no impossible) it'd be a waste to spend money installing eyes on every emag. i've seen guys with shockers and timmies chop more than me. how about that. and i don't have eyes. also, with faster loader technology, that even makes eyes more unneccessary.
the only unfixable flaw (for now) that i see in mags, is efficiency, which is just decent. in every other category, it excels.

but i do see the point of the devils advocate role you played, phantomhitman. someones gotta do it. so this definately isn't a flame toward you, its just a rebuttle to the topics in general.

[phantomhitman]

And that is fine, great response. The trigger system is, in my opinion, a bulky double trigger that sucks. If I ever had an emag i would dump the trigger first for a fireblade trigger. I understand that every gun in the world has adjustments, but the magnet/hes system just doesnt do it for me. The best system, again in my opinion, is the one used for the eblades (break beam detection and magnet adjusted). I own a few mags as stated, I am not turned off by the hose or uglyness, just some general statements I have heard about mags. Even a uled to the max emag is still heavy, but some people like heavy/solid markers. On the other hand some people like markers as light and tight as possible. I do not see this as being a lilttle pansie that needs to lift weights or anything of that sort but just a general feel for what some people like. It is like race car nuts, something lighter/faster to give them any advantage at all. If you dont like something- then you dont like it, everyone has the right to whatever they want.
AO is very sensative about their agd products and some people are straight out fanboys (meaning they have ignorantly proclaimed agd as the best ever without trying anything else to give it a shot). I love the products, I just wish the innovation never died. A newer smaller/faster/prettier/new design or layout/ plus a little hype :ninja: would be nice to see. But AGD is not that kind of company, they make what they want and you can like it or not. They do not have the cash to compete with the bs and hype going on now. AGD has put out some products that everyone was asking for but then the no one bought. I hope everything turns around for them, their guns and former owner were great.

[ottomobile]

So how long do you think AGD will be around before they are pushed out? Its going to be a sad day when this site goes away...

[phantomhitman]

i dont think it will be soon, agd still has a niche market and quite a few supporters. just goes to show how loyal the customers are as well as the quality agd puts out.

[dahoeb]

yea, i think they'll be around for awhile. themagsmith.com seems to be a pretty successful vendor of mag products, and most of his stuff, like the bodies and rails were all originally bought from agd at some point or another.
plus, a lot of mag owners end up buying more than one mag; they might sell it, try some different gun, and then come back to the mag. thats what i did.....a few times ;) and there are some that just like to make nice custom mags. and the xvalves sell pretty well i'm thinking, you can't have a mag without it. ontop of that, they're a pretty pricey component, i'm sure after the price they charge, they make a decent profit. i don't think agd quite as bad off as people think.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Yeah, while we are on this topic, wtf did happen to KAPP? They went from a fairly big company to dissapearing, and I never heard a word about it. Maybe its just me but they don't seem to be around like they used to be, even if they aren't out of business.

from the rumors I heard around San Diego at the time it was said that KAPP was secretly folded into Dye and just disappeared without a word being said...