anyone write there own programs?

[maxama10]

just curious....i wish i could but i have to wait until next year till i can take c++ i know a little bit about html....but can anyone ?

[quik]

I reccomend you learn a little more than " < a href = " before you dabble in C++.

Maybe.

[Miscue]

I'm a programmer... what would you like to know?

HTML is not a programming language... nothing of value carries over from trivial HTML knowledge to an actual programming language. However, you need to know HTML well if you're making pages with like... objective perl or something.

Concentrate on learning somputer science and programming concepts/techniques - C++ is just a tool... the language itself is not important as compared to what is being expressed.

[dave p]

im a programmer also. my current job doesnt require much in the way of real programming per se. i do a lot of sql and some plsql. plsql is a little closer to "programming". the funny thing is in school i only took 1 relational database course. turns out thats what i do day in day out. skills are transferrable. i do write some "tools" for myself. try to learn many languages, different tools are good for different things. dont wait for class. get a book and teach yourself, then you will be able to enjoy class when you take it. hell, if you learn some *nix, you wont even need to buy a compiler. C++ is as good a place as any to start, some will disagree but the way i see it, if you can learn C++ everything else is quicker(to code, not execute) and easier(except assembler). its a real programming language and will help you learn some good habits(or bad ones if you are lazy). things like VB will seem like a toy language after coding in C++.

[Miscue]

I agree as well... C++ is good to start with but I think C is better. The closer it is to the machine level, the better. GCC!

"Teaching BASIC should be a criminal offense." EW Dijkstra

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." Edsger Dijkstra

"Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea which could only have originated in California." Edsger Dijkstra

[Miscue]

When I mentioned... to learn concepts... I'm talking about stuff like this classic:

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/d/di/dining_philosophers_problem.html

I know language X, therefore I'm a "programmer" is a pet peeve of mine.
It's like: I know how to use a hammer, therefore I'm a carpenter. Employers often cannot tell the difference... and hire people who suck.

Programming concepts have very little to do with computers and executable binaries... that's just how it is implemented. Start to understand this and you'll be thinking like a real programmer.

[Glickman]

When I mentioned... to learn concepts... I'm talking about stuff like this classic:

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/d/di/dining_philosophers_problem.html

I know language X, therefore I'm a "programmer" is a pet peeve of mine.
It's like: I know how to use a hammer, therefore I'm a carpenter. Employers often cannot tell the difference... and hire people who suck.

Programming concepts have very little to do with computers and executable binaries... that's just how it is implemented. Start to understand this and you'll be thinking like a real programmer.


i totally know what you mean. i believe the same is attributed to "hacker" alot as well. (i cringe just as much as the next guy :D )

but what i believe is interesting is how the term "hacker" evolved. to me, it has always meant someone who has a interest in exploring, possibly reverse engineering anything in order to better understand it.. yet now, political correctness has it defined something around the relm of an "Unauthorized user who attempts to or gains access to an information system and the data it supports."

i get asked if im a hacker, i say "to me, yes, to you, no im not."

sorry if that was too off topic, but it relates to this. i think it depends on the person. personally, i think if you have an interest in how a system interprets something and/or how it operates, then yea, i think you could call yourself a programmer, despite the fact that we know it is deemed a "status symbol" often. but its different for everyone

i figure, let the guy have his pride, in the long run, it wont matter much anyway.

anyway, if you feel comfortable, try going into javascript. i will be looking into learning C soon to help with programming robots, and i was told that it was a good way to get a base.

[MantisMag]

if you want to get started with robots take a look at pyro (www.pyrorobotics.org) (PYthon RObotics). it's a simple way to get into complex robot AI systems. the language used is of course python. there's plenty of simulators and robots avaialable which you can insert the brains that you've written in python into.

[Jonneh]

Ugh, I'm hardly a master C/C++ guy, but I think learning it as a first language is a pretty bad idea. For me at least, C/C++ is pretty unforgiving as a language, having complete control over the memory your program uses and uber-pointers and all that jazz can make it pretty overwhelming for a newbie programmer. I certainly found it hard to get acustomed to, but that also could be due to my familiarity with Java, which doesn't need all that jazz.

I still reckon that Java is the better language to start programming with, it's compiler is extremely forgiving and informative, the API is very well written and extensive, it's also entirely object oriented, which I say is a pretty difficult subject for newbie programmers to grasp, and actually extremely useful, despite what hardcore jerks like miscue say, it'll also (in theory) run on any computer with a javaVM.

Combined with a good IDE (I use eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org)) it makes writing and debugging programs in java a dream.

oops, I gotta go to work, (writing visual basic .net!) more later if you care!

[Miscue]

i totally know what you mean. i believe the same is attributed to "hacker" alot as well. (i cringe just as much as the next guy :D )


I agree. The word is meaningless now... it's been mangled... brutalized... massacred...

People have asked me: "Are you a hacker?"

I explain my background in computing, which they can interpret how they'd like... but won't acknowledge being a hacker - it now has an ambiguous meaning. My perception of what a hacker is... is probably different from theirs.

[Miscue]

Ugh, I'm hardly a master C/C++ guy, but I think learning it as a first language is a pretty bad idea. For me at least, C/C++ is pretty unforgiving as a language, having complete control over the memory your program uses and uber-pointers and all that jazz can make it pretty overwhelming for a newbie programmer. I certainly found it hard to get acustomed to, but that also could be due to my familiarity with Java, which doesn't need all that jazz.

I still reckon that Java is the better language to start programming with, it's compiler is extremely forgiving and informative, the API is very well written and extensive, it's also entirely object oriented, which I say is a pretty difficult subject for newbie programmers to grasp, and actually extremely useful, despite what hardcore jerks like miscue say, it'll also (in theory) run on any computer with a javaVM.

Combined with a good IDE (I use eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org)) it makes writing and debugging programs in java a dream.

oops, I gotta go to work, (writing visual basic .net!) more later if you care!

Bah! I think Java is worse to start with... it's a derivative of C++. You just about need to know how to program already... and understand OOPS... before you use it.

If you limit the scope of features you're using in C/C++... it's not overwhelming like you say.

Why not recommend Algol 60 or something? :p

Ooh... a non-Von Neumann language perhaps. Those are fun.

[Jonneh]

I disagree, if you want to learn to program (IE, solving problems with data structures and algorithms and stuffe) then java is as good a platform to learn as any. Of course any newbie is going to have to battle with the language as much as they battle the problem they are trying to solve, and whatever they choose and get the most experience of will almost certainly affect the way they think.
I think java provides the ideal environment for a newbie programmer, it's because of the forced OOP that you kinda learn it by accident, then eventually one day it just clicks and you understand the big picture. As for reducing the scope of what you do in C, some of it is unavoidable, memory management is one of those things, it's something a newbie should be aware of but not have to worry about too much, but it's so integral to the way you use C that it can put people off very quickly.

My point (I can't remember if I had one anymore) is that Java is waycool and high level and C/C++ is for hardcore people like miscue who wishes it was 1994 again and they had 640k of memory! Take that!

[dave p]

I agree. The word is meaningless now... it's been mangled... brutalized... massacred...

People have asked me: "Are you a hacker?"

I explain my background in computing, which they can interpret how they'd like... but won't acknowledge being a hacker - it now has an ambiguous meaning. My perception of what a hacker is... is probably different from theirs.
agreed

hacking, like programming can be applied to situations that have nothing to do with computing as well. its a means to an end, and you choose the vehicle to get you there.

i am not a hacker by definition (eric raymonds definition) im not hardcore enough. but i do believe in finding as many answers as you can on your own, asking intelligent questions, doing my own work, learning new things because they interest me(not just because i need to). i like to explore not so obvious solutions to problems.

i am certainly not a hacker by cult of the dead cow standards.

i do have experience with 8085 and 8086 assembler
c/c++
java
vb
sql/plsql

i have used them all to solve various problems. c was my first language and im glad it was. next was c++, then java. seemed like a natural progression. assembler tied together a lot of low level questions i had and vb seemed like a toy after all that.
my vote for a first language is still c/c++

[MantisMag]

jonneh, the reasons you give FOR java are precisely why it's a BAD language to learn on. when you're first learning, having a language that is unforgiving is good. it forces you to write better code. with a compiler that's forgiving of errors you end up with bad habits because the crappy code you wrote works so you think it's fine. forcing object oriented programming on a first time programmer isn't the greatest idea either. you complain that pointers are too hard yet you like java because it immediately forces a difficult subject on the beginning programmer? java is not as cool as you think it is. if it was it would have replaced C++. it hasn't. java has two things going for it. ease of use and portability. C++ has power and speed. guess who wins in the real world? hardcore programmers with power and speed. ease of use means nothing. nobody cares about the programmer. it's the user that's important. portability is why java is successful. applications over the web is the only reason to learn java.

[Miscue]

jonneh, the reasons you give FOR java are precisely why it's a BAD language to learn on. when you're first learning, having a language that is unforgiving is good. it forces you to write better code. with a compiler that's forgiving of errors you end up with bad habits because the crappy code you wrote works so you think it's fine. forcing object oriented programming on a first time programmer isn't the greatest idea either. you complain that pointers are too hard yet you like java because it immediately forces a difficult subject on the beginning programmer? java is not as cool as you think it is. if it was it would have replaced C++. it hasn't. java has two things going for it. ease of use and portability. C++ has power and speed. guess who wins in the real world? hardcore programmers with power and speed. ease of use means nothing. nobody cares about the programmer. it's the user that's important. portability is why java is successful. applications over the web is the only reason to learn java.

I disagree... applications over the web is not the only reason to learn Java... it's not a one-trick pony.

C/C++ has strengths. Java has strengths. Language XYZ has strengths. Use the appropriate tool for the given task... and don't favor a particular language just because of familiarity.

The higher level a language is... the more it diverges from how the machine works. I think that Java is a great SECOND language to learn. C/C++ is "unforgiving?" Well... I think it's an issue of it more closely representing what the machine itself is doing... and the student has to know a bit more about the machine (although it might not be realized that's what's going on while he/she is learning).

Jonneh... do you know why looping structures should be kept as small as possible for performance considerations? How about why you'd want to keep the number of function parameters you use at a minimum? Why it's faster to use arrays if you don't have to use dynamic structures (heap space considerations... blah blah blah)? Or... why you should avoid recursive functions (unless it just makes sense to... or you're using a recursive language or something) and favor iterative ones? It has nothing logically to do with the language itself... but rather the resulting machine code after compilation. There's a lot of reasons why you should know how the machine works... makes you a better programmer.

[ScatterPlot]

I'm in a C++ class right now, it's not too bad (we're only a few weeks in though), but I can kinda see it getting harder later. Also had a teensie snippet of an introduction to visual Basic in one class, and finally there's the TI-83 plus. Had one since the 8th grade, 6 or so years, and I can write programs in that all day long. Not just real good ones, but some that are so-so, specially given that it was all self-taught and did most during math class :)

[maxama10]

hmmm so i think the general thought is to start of with c++. How would i go about doing that?

[Glickman]

if you want to get started with robots take a look at pyro (www.pyro.org) (PYthon RObotics). it's a simple way to get into complex robot AI systems. the language used is of course python. there's plenty of simulators and robots avaialable which you can insert the brains that you've written in python into.

thanks, ill definitly look into it. the standard is C language for the competition, but that doesnt mean we cant do a little of both :D

oh, the url doesnt work, but i think this might be it http://emergent.brynmawr.edu/~dblank/pyro/

i do remember a pretty cool open source game that let you program robots and they do battle on the computer, but alas, the name has excaped me

[Miscue]

thanks, ill definitly look into it. the standard is C language for the competition, but that doesnt mean we cant do a little of both :D

oh, the url doesnt work, but i think this might be it http://emergent.brynmawr.edu/~dblank/pyro/

i do remember a pretty cool open source game that let you program robots and they do battle on the computer, but alas, the name has excaped me

I'm not sure if you're talking about the same thing as what I'm thinking... but when I was 15 I made a network playable programming game. Basically you had a robot that would fight other robots... and you had to script out an algorithm to control it.

I did stuff like... the robot cannot see behind himself... can't see as far from the sides as in front. It could set detectors to have full vision of an area... or remove enemy detectors... or pick up its own detectors and relocate them. The most powerful weapon was on the robot's back... and since you're blind on your back you have to use those detectors so you can see what you're shooting at with your big gun... stuff like that.

Nobody played it though... I was the only one who understood how to use it.

[MantisMag]

thanks, ill definitly look into it. the standard is C language for the competition, but that doesnt mean we cant do a little of both :D

oh, the url doesnt work, but i think this might be it http://emergent.brynmawr.edu/~dblank/pyro/

i do remember a pretty cool open source game that let you program robots and they do battle on the computer, but alas, the name has excaped me

oops sorry. that's what i get for doing it from memory and not double checking. :p i fixed it. the url i was thinking of was http://www.pyrorobotics.org it's either a mirror or simply an alt of the one you found.

miscue - i'll give you that there are other uses for java. i just don't really think of them as being as compelling. i got a little carried away with my rant though when i said that web apps are the only reason. as for C/C++ being unforgiving if you had a scale of languages and their level of flexibility when it comes to what kinds of code you can write and still have it compile and run with, let's say, ada on one side and perl (without strict) on the other, i think we can agree C++ would be more to the ada side. there's also the fact that C strips out a lot of things that might make code more reliable in favor of efficiency and speed of execution. things like bounds checking. whereas other languages will do this for you, if you want C/C++ to do this you have to write it in yourself. so to me it's more about specific design choices that were made when whoever it was decided how a language would parse and compile. i can see what you mean about it being closer to machine level though. i think that's just a result of the choice to make these sacrifices to speed and the giving the programmer control of the how and when and where everything is done.

[maxama10]

okay well sense youre all really smart
i need help with my aim account i lost my password
i dont have the email account i used to sign up with i guess
so it wont email me my pass
and i want to try to use brutus to force my way into my account
how do i do that anyone know? brutus is really confusing.....

[Miscue]

okay well sense youre all really smart
i need help with my aim account i lost my password
i dont have the email account i used to sign up with i guess
so it wont email me my pass
and i want to try to use brutus to force my way into my account
how do i do that anyone know? brutus is really confusing.....

Urm... brute forcing passwords usually doesn't work unless you have access to the password file. Otherwise, you'll get locked out after X number of failed attempts... typically.

[dave p]

okay well sense youre all really smart
i need help with my aim account i lost my password
i dont have the email account i used to sign up with i guess
so it wont email me my pass
and i want to try to use brutus to force my way into my account
how do i do that anyone know? brutus is really confusing.....

i prefer using a methed out marmoset monkey on a teletype and 9600 baud modem for my password cracking needs.

[Miscue]

hmmm so i think the general thought is to start of with c++. How would i go about doing that?

http://www.gnu.org/software/gcc/gcc.html
http://www.cygwin.com/

[Glickman]

:D
okay well sense youre all really smart
i need help with my aim account i lost my password
i dont have the email account i used to sign up with i guess
so it wont email me my pass
and i want to try to use brutus to force my way into my account
how do i do that anyone know? brutus is really confusing.....

from what i assume, your password file is held on the aim server.

you aint bruting that :D

also, so you know, bruting stuff could take anywhere from a few days to years

[maxama10]

:( okay....lol new account

[dave p]

http://www.gnu.org/software/gcc/gcc.html
http://www.cygwin.com/

i just downloaded and installed bloodshed devC++. pretty impressive for free.

[Jonneh]

i just downloaded and installed bloodshed devC++. pretty impressive for free.It's useable, but pretty buggy. I was using it on my laptop to finish off some C coursework on the train home, and unknown to me, something had gone crazy with devc++ and it was using 100% cpu, and drained 2 hours of battery life in about 6 minutes. That kinda annoyed me.

I think MS released a free beta or something of visual c++ .NET 2005, use that if you can find it, the MS IDEs are a dream to use.

[dave p]

It's useable, but pretty buggy. I was using it on my laptop to finish off some C coursework on the train home, and unknown to me, something had gone crazy with devc++ and it was using 100% cpu, and drained 2 hours of battery life in about 6 minutes. That kinda annoyed me.

I think MS released a free beta or something of visual c++ .NET 2005, use that if you can find it, the MS IDEs are a dream to use.

I have Visual Studio (C++ and VB), Borland C++ and JBuilder at home already. I just wanted to try this so i did and it turns out i like it.I have 2 *nix boxes with tons of dev tools that run from the command line i.e. gcc, g++. At work i have access to enterprise editions of almost any dev tool i want. i was just saying for free i think this devC++ was pretty slick. for anyone wanting to try learning C its one quick download and you are on your way, for free.