FN303 Law suit????

[cledford]

Is this a suit based on the 303?

Family of Red Sox fan sues gun maker
Student killed when police hit her in eye with pepper-spray pellet

Wednesday, September 14, 2005; Posted: 7:53 a.m. EDT (11:53 GMT)
Boston (Massachusetts)

BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- The family of a Red Sox fan killed outside Fenway Park when a police officer fired a pepper-spray pellet into her eye sued the gun maker for $10 million.

The lawsuit by the family of Emerson College student Victoria Snelgrove, 21, charges that FN Herstal USA falsely claimed its pellets don't break the skin.

The hardness and shape of the pellets "almost guarantee a serious or fatal injury if a vital area, such as the eye, is hit," the suit charged.

The suit, filed Monday, contended that the pepper-pellet gun "actually increased the likelihood of injury to innocent bystanders."

It also claimed that FN Herstal did not adequately train officers when to use the guns. As a result, officers were confused and didn't understand the effects of firing a round.

Representatives of the McLean, Virginia, company were not available for comment.

In May, the city of Boston settled a lawsuit by Snelgrove's family for $5 million. As part of the settlement, the city cooperated in the suit against the gun maker and will receive half of any damage award, up to $2 million.

Snelgrove was killed October 21 in a crowd that gathered outside Fenway Park to celebrate Boston's pennant-clinching win over the New York Yankees.

Police said some of the revelers were throwing bottles, lighting fires and wrecking cars. Snelgrove was not involved in the fracas, but she was hit when an officer fired at another reveler who was throwing objects at police.

On Monday, Suffolk District Attorney Daniel Conley determined that no criminal charges would be filed against the police officers involved in the shooting.

[buzzboy]

How do you sue the gun maker on something like that. Its just not right. If the policeman or the company that made the balls was sued it would be one thing but the gun. That would be like someone buying a gun, killing someone and sueing the gun shop for supplying a murder weapon. Just plain *****. People like that deserve to fall and stud their toe.

[rkjunior303]

Usually how these things work.

Defendant sues the Gun maker. Gun maker sues the Ball maker (Perfect Circle, who coincidentally, is owned by Tom Kaye).

[Lohman446]

Police said some of the revelers were throwing bottles, lighting fires and wrecking cars. Snelgrove was not involved in the fracas, but she was hit when an officer fired at another reveler who was throwing objects at police.

So the officer who decided to use the weapon - or who was ordered to use it by his superiors in a highly crowded situation in which non-violators were involved (for the record I still question the innocence of someone who just "happens" to be with a group of rioters an hour after the thing got out of control) MISSED his intended target and hit a bystander. Thats the fault of the company that made the weapon?

[MicroMiniMe]

Welcome to capitalist democracy.
The new 'American Way.'

Never mind culpability and personal responsibility.

The officer was just found not outside of his job duties and performance for such a situation. Lets the city and department pass the buck as well it seems.

The whole ordeal is on the same level as the family of a killed burglar suing the homeowner after the homeowner acted in self defense.
Not as ridiculous, but close enough to me at least.

[Muzikman]

I have been keeping an eye on this since last year. I have been expecting this. But as most have already stated, how many times has S&W been sued because someone was shot by a gun they made (more than once I know). Is it stupid? Hell yeah it is. But I am sure that $15million will make the family completely forget about their loss and allow them to buy a bigger house and faster cars. That is what I never understood about settlements that involved money when someone dies. There should be no dollar value placed on a life. If this family truely just wanted justice and not the cash, they should give it all to cherity (and no not the stripper at Scores). But I am sure that is not what's going to happen to the money.

That all being said, I hope FN and PC come out of this ok. It's truly a great technology.

As for Lohman's comments, I totally agree. If a riot starts and you do not get your arse out of there ASAP then you are part of the problem. There is no such thing as an innocent bistandard (sp?) hours after a riot start.

[nulam]

The reason you go after the manufacturer of the weapon and ammunition is because in many instances that is where the deep pockets are. More so if the other possible defendant is a municipality which may be able to hide behind the doctrine of governmental immunity. Right now the NRA is supporting S. 397 a bill called the "protecting lawful commerce in arms act", which is designed to prevent suits exactly like this and insulate manufactures of arms from suit.

[rkjunior303]

The issue at hand isn't the fact that the FN 303 was used but the fact that it was issued to a police officer without proper training on how to fire the weapon into a crowd.

[Lohman446]

Someone once said our civil liability system has gotten less and less about justice and more and more like a lottery

[hitech]

The lawsuit by the family of Emerson College student Victoria Snelgrove, 21, charges that FN Herstal USA falsely claimed its pellets don't break the skin.

The hardness and shape of the pellets "almost guarantee a serious or fatal injury if a vital area, such as the eye, is hit," the suit charged.

The suit, filed Monday, contended that the pepper-pellet gun "actually increased the likelihood of injury to innocent bystanders."

It also claimed that FN Herstal did not adequately train officers when to use the guns. As a result, officers were confused and didn't understand the effects of firing a round.



This is what the suit is about, Whether it is true or not, or even if that should be good enough for a lawsuit is another question. Personally, if they falsely claimed (lied) that the "pellets" would not break the skin then they are guilty...

[rkjunior303]

What'snot being reported here is that there are two other injuries with the FN during that evening. one kid had a hole punched through his cheek and another guy got MASSIVE bruises on his neck/body from 3 shots.

[Jaan]

That is what I never understood about settlements that involved money when someone dies. There should be no dollar value placed on a life.That's just it, there is a dollar value placed on a life. There's one on your life, and one on mine. I believe in the airline industry the figure is 2.4 million. If it costs more than that to make the planes safer and save your life, then it's not worth it.


Business is out to make money, and that's the only way to hurt them. If you didn't punish business then they wouldn't have any incentive to protect peoples lives. You have to make the cost of someone dying high before they'll care.

I'm not saying anything for or against the suit, but the bottom line is an innocent young girl was killed, and that shouldn't happen in the US. Something went wrong somewhere.

[Muzikman]

There are MANY MANY other ways to make a company pay for negligence that is not monetary. Some of which would hurt the company more than even making them pay. I will never agree that someone can sue a company and make millions off of it over any form of loss, this is what life insurance and accidental death and dismemberment insurance is for.

That being said, we live in a sue happy country/time and I guess that's just how things are. Maybe I can make my millions not by being smart and have something to offer socienty...but by spilling some coffee on my lap.

I am sorry that the girl died, but I do not blame the police or FN, I blame the stupid people that decided the best thing to do when your team wins (or loses) is to riot.

[hitech]

I'm not defending the lawsuit. However, on the subject of a life not being worth a specific amount of money... If I were to die my family would loose a significant amount of income. Enough that they would not be able to continue in the same life style as we do now (not that it's all that great, but...). My life insurance is only a years salary. How much money would I earn before I died at my life expectancy? THAT is the minimum amount... Additionally, the assistance I provide in the care and feeding of the children is also worth something (what would it cost to hire someone to do it FULL time). Then there is the upkeep of the house. Again, what would it cost to hire someone to so all that. Then there is the upkeep of the wife, what would it cost... You get the idea. ;)

:cheers:

[benhmn]

So the officer who decided to use the weapon - or who was ordered to use it by his superiors in a highly crowded situation in which non-violators were involved (for the record I still question the innocence of someone who just "happens" to be with a group of rioters an hour after the thing got out of control) MISSED his intended target and hit a bystander. Thats the fault of the company that made the weapon?

Who also was FACING the police officer in order to get hit directly in the eye. Doesn't look like she was trying to get away from anything

[rkjunior303]

Who also was FACING the police officer in order to get hit directly in the eye. Doesn't look like she was trying to get away from anything

That is a comment that isn't based on fact. If you know the area where this happened, the street is a T. In order to leave, you have to walk up to the cross street (Brookline Ave) then take a right/left. She could have been walking up Landsdowne St. to leave and just been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I doubt the gun manufacturer will be held responsible for the training of the officers who used their product. Unless there was a specific training course, etc. which the officers attended. When you bought your paintball gun wasn't there an information package included which explained the proper way to use the marker (did you read it)? Doesn't the user assume all culpability in these instances?

I disagree with the "blame the maker" mentality except in situations where it can be shown that the manufacturer was negligent with the users safety, or intended the product to altered or distributed in an unsafe manner.

It can all be compared to Big Tobacco, and their lawsuits. Who's responsible anymore?

[SlartyBartFast]

I disagree with the "blame the maker" mentality except in situations where it can be shown that the manufacturer was negligent with the users safety, or intended the product to altered or distributed in an unsafe manner.

Which is why this lawsuit is justified and necessary.

If FN can prove it's training and documentation are adequate, they will avoid all responsibility.

Any portion of responsibility that they can be accountable for, such as their training requirements not being sufficient, derroneous documentation, or a trainer that misstated the possible danger of the weapons will result in them being penalised for their percentage of responsibility and hopefully the training or documentation changed as necessary.

[Muzikman]

I'm not defending the lawsuit. However, on the subject of a life not being worth a specific amount of money... If I were to die my family would loose a significant amount of income. Enough that they would not be able to continue in the same life style as we do now (not that it's all that great, but...). My life insurance is only a years salary. How much money would I earn before I died at my life expectancy? THAT is the minimum amount... Additionally, the assistance I provide in the care and feeding of the children is also worth something (what would it cost to hire someone to do it FULL time). Then there is the upkeep of the house. Again, what would it cost to hire someone to so all that. Then there is the upkeep of the wife, what would it cost... You get the idea. ;)

:cheers:


Point taken, but that is what life insurance is for. have the wife take out a 3 million policy on you and all if fine...until she needs new shoes and you end up in a ditch along the side of the road :)

Personally I am not a fan of insurance either.

[SlartyBartFast]

Personally I am not a fan of insurance either.

You should be insured enough so that the survivors aren't worse off than currently until they can regain their footing.

You should be insured to cover expenses and debts that the survivor would not be able to cover.

But, you need to evalute the need, not turn it into a lottery.

It's different with lawsuits about responsibility though. Insurance is your legacy to your heirs ensuring they can survive at least the short term (you may want tem to be able to survive long term as if you were still alive). Court imposed penalties however have a duty to ensure that your heirs are provided for as if you were alive and earning for a normal lifetime.

That's only fair. It's what they took away, it's what they owe back.

But if there are no dependants, I think the payment should be for court costs and any penalty be only to ensure the event doesn't happen again.

[Muzikman]

You should be insured enough so that the survivors aren't worse off than currently until they can regain their footing.

You should be insured to cover expenses and debts that the survivor would not be able to cover.

But, you need to evalute the need, not turn it into a lottery.

It's different with lawsuits about responsibility though. Insurance is your legacy to your heirs ensuring they can survive at least the short term (you may want tem to be able to survive long term as if you were still alive). Court imposed penalties however have a duty to ensure that your heirs are provided for as if you were alive and earning for a normal lifetime.

That's only fair. It's what they took away, it's what they owe back.

But if there are no dependants, I think the payment should be for court costs and any penalty be only to ensure the event doesn't happen again.


Correct. Do you think that girl even if she had a family would have made 15 million (in today’s money) over her natural life? I doubt it. Again, it's tragic that she died; no one should die from someone else’s stupidity. But I find it odd that all the cops involved still have their job. It's as if it's the guns fault, not the person using it.

I think if you sue someone reasonable compensation should be made if they are found at fault. These multi-million dollar lawsuits are getting out of hand. I don't find this one as ludicrous as the one oh so many years ago about the woman who spilt hot coffee on herself then sued for a couple million, but still.

[ottomobile]

If the parents need to sue anyone, sue the rioters. Its their fault the police showed up. Its their fault we need police. Its their fault police need weapons in the first place. Don't blame law enforcement and certainly don't blame the company trying to support the cops. People aren't perfect and machines break-down. It happens. But ultimately if anyone bears responsibility it the rioters and the girl that died. They shouldn't have been breaking the law.

[hitech]

The lawsuit...charges that FN Herstal USA falsely claimed its pellets don't break the skin.

If they falsely claimed (lied) that the "pellets" would not break the skin then they are guilty... :nono:

[Lohman446]

If they falsely claimed (lied) that the "pellets" would not break the skin then they are guilty... :nono:


If they did you are right. And anyone who beleived them after test firing one of those things and handling the ammo is an idiot.

[Steelrat]

"Skin" isnt the same as "eye." Remember, they don't call these weapons "non-leathal," they call them "less-lethal," and there is a very good reason for that.

To me, it sounds like the officer ignored one of the cardinal rules of firearms safety, which is to know your target, backstop, and beyond. From what I've seen, the FN303 is not an area affect weapon, and is in fact a direct fire weapon intended to be used against individual targets, unlike a tear gas grenade, which is intended to be lobbed into a crowd. So, either the officer intentionally fired at a person, knowing that there were other people behind his target that he may or may not have wanted to hit, or the officer was randomly shooting off into a crowd hoping for a hit. Either scenario is bad.

What also disturbs me is Boston jumping on the bandwagon to sue the manufacturer, and getting a "piece of the pie." I'm sure the Boston PD knew full well what would happen if someone was hit in the eye with one of the FN303 rounds. Its up to the PD to teach their people how to engage targets.

[ottomobile]

Yeah and remember, paintballs don't break the skin either. But we all know what happens if one of those suckers hits you in the eye! Adios Muchacho! Thats why we wear googles on the field.

Imagine if someone sued RPS because they were playing without a mask.