Ramping is so wrong, but run away is great

[Lohman446]

As a general rule AO members tend to hold the same lithmus test to different subjects on what they think is right and wrong, ok and not.

Why is it than that one-shot one pull is the hard and fast rule in regards to ramping and anyone who thinks anything else is "cheating" or whatever they are attacked with.

But if you see a mag in runaway mode ala Zak Vetter it becauses such a great thing.

I think this is a major shortcoming by some of the memers of AO in being logical and consistent in there positions.

So... why is it that there appears to be this break in logic on this subject?

[mag88888]

its cool when zakvetter does it cause its amazingly fast but noone uses that in a game, i think. its just for show.

[Automaggot68]

As a general rule AO members tend to hold the same lithmus test to different subjects on what they think is right and wrong, ok and not.

Why is it than that one-shot one pull is the hard and fast rule in regards to ramping and anyone who thinks anything else is "cheating" or whatever they are attacked with.

But if you see a mag in runaway mode ala Zak Vetter it becauses such a great thing.

I think this is a major shortcoming by some of the memers of AO in being logical and consistent in there positions.

So... why is it that there appears to be this break in logic on this subject?

It's cool because He's Zak Vetter, and because it's on a mag.

;)

/end sarcasm

[68magOwner]

its cool when zakvetter does it cause its amazingly fast but noone uses that in a game

no, no one hooks up a scuba to their marker on the field, but, there are vids with him using standard tanks pushing close to 20bps, and, this can/is used in game, there was jsut a post i saw a few days ago with a guy talking about how he was doing 17bps with his mech mag (by sweetspotting) which is no more legal than ramping. Its because AO'ers are partial to mags, bottom line.

[Carbon]

As a general rule AO members tend to hold the same lithmus test to different subjects on what they think is right and wrong, ok and not.

Why is it than that one-shot one pull is the hard and fast rule in regards to ramping and anyone who thinks anything else is "cheating" or whatever they are attacked with.

But if you see a mag in runaway mode ala Zak Vetter it becauses such a great thing.

I think this is a major shortcoming by some of the memers of AO in being logical and consistent in there positions.

So... why is it that there appears to be this break in logic on this subject?
Zmans vid. is a tech demo.

[Automaggot68]

Zmans vid. is a tech demo.


You shot Zak.
In the Face.
I love that video.

[Lohman446]

Zmans vid. is a tech demo.


Zmans video was the example, you see often enough "I just crank up the input pressure and go to town" though on here, or some such, and everyone (ok, not everyone, but you know what I mean) seems to think thats acceptable while at the same time, many of them whine about ramping.

[dolphin1823]

shooting fast on a mech marker is a skill that requires practice, even with an RT tigger. Ramping is a program that when set, you can pull the trigger 3 times quickly and 15 balls come out.

[Lohman446]

shooting fast on a mech marker is a skill that requires practice, even with an RT tigger. Ramping is a program that when set, you can pull the trigger 3 times quickly and 15 balls come out.

Shooting fast with input pressures cranked to a point to cause run-away is not a skill.... sorry

[dolphin1823]

Shooting fast with input pressures cranked to a point to cause run-away is not a skill.... sorry

that's hard for me, pre-set reg. :p

[slade]

cause on AO, its only cool if a mag can do it.

[Automaggot68]

cause on AO, its only cool if a mag can do it.


<3Colin<3

[TheShark]

Yes, people that sweetspot in games while denouncing ramping are hypocrites. People with this mentality no doubt exist on this board but I'd like to hope they are a very small minority. There are idiots everywhere, what can you do?

[ottomobile]

Technically speaking, hitting the sweet spot on an RT isn't cheating because you are still firing one shot per one pull of the trigger and your finger still has to move for each shot fired. Sweet-spotting takes practice and is different on every marker. It takes time to develope as a skill. When I started on mags I was really slow, but each time I play I get a little faster.

Cheater boards require no skill use and shoot as many rounds as you want for one trigger pull. Yes, you have to reach 3-5 balls a second for ramping to engage but anyone can shoot an electro 3-5 times a second.

The problem most people who don't like ramping have with it isn't the shear speed, its the skill. If you can shoot 26bps in semi that's awesome, but you're a wuss if all you do is press the firebutton and let computer do all the shooting, and you are taking away from legitimate pros who worked hard to get there.

In my mind its no different than using steroids in Baseball to hit the ball harder. Its an unfair advantage that demeans the skills of real atheletes.

[BigEvil]

Ramping is great. Who says otherwise?

[Cow hunter]

rampng you dont really do anyhtng but set it, runaway it takes tme to set and tune the gun, but both are still wrong i think.........

[ZEROte]

honestly if you think ramping is bad i think your just a ***** whos scared to take a hit or two. :p

[Automaggot68]

honestly if you think ramping is bad i think your just a ***** whos scared to take a hit or two. :p


No, they just adhere to a different set of rules and opinions.

[dolphin1823]

Technically speaking, hitting the sweet spot on an RT isn't cheating because you are still firing one shot per one pull of the trigger and your finger still has to move for each shot fired. Sweet-spotting takes practice and is different on every marker. It takes time to develope as a skill. When I started on mags I was really slow, but each time I play I get a little faster.

Cheater boards require no skill use and shoot as many rounds as you want for one trigger pull. Yes, you have to reach 3-5 balls a second for ramping to engage but anyone can shoot an electro 3-5 times a second.

The problem most people who don't like ramping have with it isn't the shear speed, its the skill. If you can shoot 26bps in semi that's awesome, but you're a wuss if all you do is press the firebutton and let computer do all the shooting, and you are taking away from legitimate pros who worked hard to get there.

In my mind its no different than using steroids in Baseball to hit the ball harder. Its an unfair advantage that demeans the skills of real atheletes.

Right on! Sweet spotting is hard to master, to much or to little pressure on the trigger with your finger and it doesn't work.
I've got the X-valve with a Rouge "Viper Blade Trigger" with the set screws, with the reactivity of the X-valve, I can shoot pretty fast, but it took some practice. Plus if I want to shoot 4 or 5 shots quickly, only 4 or 5 come out, it won't jump into ramping and shoot 15 balls out. Pretty much that's my biggest problem with ramping, I see it as a safty issue, if a player wants to shoot and can pull 15 bps on their marker, well in my book, their awsome, but only because they had to pull the trigger 15 times to do it. I know I'd feel bad if I were playing and I got a angle on some on, ripped off like 3 or 4 shots and 15 came out and most of those hit that player instead of the 3 or 4 I wanted to shoot.

[BigEvil]

If your gun can ramp then us mag users are jealous :tard:

I don't know who says ramping is bad, I havent heard too many people ***** about it for awhile. And us mag players must not hate it that much, judging by the number of pre-orders for the Emag Predator board :shooting:

[magman007]

i dont like ramping, and most of you know this, but it is how the game is progressing. Dolphin, have you ever shot an electro with ramping on psp mode? 15 balls dont magically come out.

[zackzel]

If your gun can ramp then us mag users are jealous :tard:

I don't know who says ramping is bad, I havent heard too many people ***** about it for awhile. And us mag players must not hate it that much, judging by the number of pre-orders for the Emag Predator board :shooting:


I agree with you, I don't think many of us are really against ramping I just think the ones that are against it are just very loud about it. And I also think there are alot of people that are completly indifferent on it.

[dolphin1823]

i dont like ramping, and most of you know this, but it is how the game is progressing. Dolphin, have you ever shot an electro with ramping on psp mode? 15 balls dont magically come out.

No I haven't, the last electo I shot was a 2k2 Shocker, semi only. I maybe don't know what the heck I'm talking about, I've been accused of it by my wife for years, I'm going by info I've read on here and that other paintball fourm site.
The begining of the year I posted a question on here "whats ramping?" because to me it sounded like those firing modes that came out when electros came out, I believe they were called "hyper mode" or something like that, but basiclly it was when you hit a certain bps this "hyper mode" would kick in and more balls would be shot out of your marker than times the trigger is pulled. Then those "hyper" modes were banned, and now there back and called ramping.
If I'm wrong then please correct me, I'm always open to learing new stuff.

[SCpoloRicker]

Runaway is roughly the equivalent of ramping.

Zak (and others) generally do speed tests with high pressure/scuba for the "Wow, thats really neat factor."

Carbon shooting Zak in the face was awesome. It was also my fault, as I was his back player at the time. ;)

/anything else?

[dahoeb]

how often can you go to the field and see someone with a marker ramping in game? i personally have seen that every weekend for the past 2 years.

how often do you go to a field and see an automag with the input pressure cranked up and then see the person go shoot ungodly fast, uncontrolled strings of paint down the actual playing field? i have personally never seen that. i have never seen anyone show up to the field with a mag running on cranked up pressure. heck...i'm lucky if i even go to the field and see a mag at all!

my point is, if it were a widespread problem, then i'm sure it would be addressed and dealt with. the majority of pballers don't even use adjustable tanks anymore, most of us just stick with carefree presets, so most of us couldn't do it even if we wanted to.

also, a mag with the pressure cranked up enough to run away is really obvious, a player would be lucky to get through the first game without getting caught.

ramping is a little more discreet and not as noticable.

for the sweetspotting of mags; i don't think thats worth looking at either, simply because its so difficult to do on a lot of mags. i've shot mags that were a little easier to sweet spot, but it'd only shoot like 2 or 3 rounds, and it was a lot more difficult to do (than ramping) and never had practical application in a game. sweetspotting is GENERALLY only easy when the pressure is cranked up, and by that time its basically runaway mode.
there are exceptions to that though, like people tinkering with the ult's, but again, its really uncommon. you don't go to a field and see mags out there shooting 15+ bps with ease.

ramping, however, can be done at almost anytime and anywhere once that designated speed is reached. ramping doesn't rquire all these mods (like ult's and adjustable tanks) and doesn't take any mechanical tinkering skill to do.

and most of the time when we see videos of people modding their mags to runaway, they do it in their backyard just for fun or just to show what the mag is capable of doing. not neccessarily what it normally does.

whew...i'm spent, that was too much typing for me.

[Asym]

Cheater boards require no skill use and shoot as many rounds as you want for one trigger pull. Yes, you have to reach 3-5 balls a second for ramping to engage but anyone can shoot an electro 3-5 times a second.

Hi....its not cheating if it is allowed at the field or tourny. Unless you are now the governing body of all that is allowed in paintball.


Technically speaking, hitting the sweet spot on an RT isn't cheating because you are still firing one shot per one pull of the trigger and your finger still has to move for each shot fired. Sweet-spotting takes practice and is different on every marker. It takes time to develope as a skill. When I started on mags I was really slow, but each time I play I get a little faster.

Oh its not technically cheating but a different kind of cheating? Sorry but its not really a skill, its bouncing off your finger your not pulling anything but the first pull then holding your finger there, unless you have the hands of a monkey that can't carry an egg without breaking it. You learn where to hold you finger so it bounces or goes RT. I'll give you that it is different on every marker but thats just common sense, you just have to learn where to hold your finger for each particular gun so it will bounce, or technically go Reactive Trigger.
Technically its leagal because the trigger makes your fingers move each pull, but your really playing lawyer ball if you really think its legal because you actually pulled off each of those shots.

My mag ramps and I go semi if its not allowed.

[ojhspyro89]

Ive played with ramping before.... im not sure if i like it.

If id play in a tourney that allowed it, of course id play with it. It makes the game a helluva lot easier. You can lane without trying.

Personally, if i ramp, im going to use the Millenium Ramp on my nox board.... its REAL fast.

[MadPSIence]

Simple... Zak displays the gruesome mag power just for entertainment and would never use it like that in a game.

Ramping, is used in games.


There lies your answer. Not only that, but ramping is kind of boring compared to a gun getting juiced up on air and shooting stupid fast on a mechanical trigger. A computer making a gun shoot fast isn't too interesting anymore.

[bunker17]

actually ramping and bounce are almost making me quit this game ive been playing since i was 14 and the last time i went i was real no fun. i don't think sweetspotting is right either but there is a b ig difference in which u don't see it that much has opposed to my sunday game when everyone except me was ramping

[ottomobile]

Asym You need to chill out bro, cheater board is common vanacular for any ramping electronic board. And ramping wasn't legal in the NPPL till this year.
I think PGI editor RoBo has the best analysis of ramping. It takes away from the skill of the player and levels the playing field. Leveling the playing field at a professional level is bad. It would be like letting every wide reciever in the NFL use stickum. You want your players at the highest level of play to develop skills that make them that much better. The discipline that it takes to get there should be rewarded. Ramping takes that away and decreases the challenge of the sport.
And sorry if you didn't like my use of the word "technically" I'm a Professional Engineer and look at everything technically. Since you didn't like my earlier reasoning here's it again more detailed.
A reactive trigger provides force feedback using energy from the firing cycle to return the trigger to its initial position. To find the "sweet spot" one applies force to the trigger at the point where the sear is just tripped. The idea being to prevent the trigger from having to travel its entire pivot period. After firing ,the reactive force of the trigger is greater than the force of your finger at the point of tripping the sear pushing your finger back. After the initial shock your brain moves the finger back to original place you want it. So yes, you are actucally pulling trigger each time, albiet using your reflexes to do so. You are basically just shortening the trigger pull to a couple millimeters. This is 'technically' not cheating because it follows the constrains of a semi-automatic marker, one shot per pull of the trigger. No rule states that a trigger must travel its entire pivot period. If it did stops would be illegal and electros would be sol. While some tourneyments have also banned RT modes many, if not most novice and rookie tourneyments have no restrictions on RT modes.


ojhspyro89 makes my point. It shouldn't be easy to lane. It should be hard because you need to work for that skill. And as for people not liking ramping? I play at PEV's outside DC. Most of the people I know there are against it in rec ball and skeptical of it in tourney's.

Safety is also another issue with ramping. A mask isn't designed to withstand 15 direct hits and could break, serious bruising can result from being shot several times in one spot, and fights will be more common. I don't know about you guys but when I'm in a tourney I get pissed when I'm blindsided by 10-15 shots when 3 or 4 would have been plenty. People are going to get mad and fight. Its enevitable.

But if Robo is right, ramping will be gone in 2 or 3 years after the NXP and NPPL go belly up...

[MadPSIence]

^ To add to the above. A lot of the random "look at my welts" pictures I have been seeing display anything from 5-10+ welts on someones body..a result of ramping.

A really common phrase in the ramping/speed cap discussion is "nobody can walk thru a row of paint at 15bps" no kidding. If you lay on the trigger only for a second or so with ramping on, you'll have enough time to get it goin full 15bps and there is at that time.... 15 balls flying towards a spot. At 250-299 (avg) FPS if anyone even twitches into the direction of the on coming balls they are going to receive anywhere from most to alll of them on their body.

THAT, is uncontrollable power in paintball.

[yakitori]

I have the only true answer. Kids will be kids. Thats it. My gun is better than your gun. Mines faster, mines got the fastest recharging valve made, yada yada yada....mine mine mine.

thats the level of mentality of many paintballers. Unfortunately.

[dahoeb]

I have the only true answer. Kids will be kids. Thats it. My gun is better than your gun. Mines faster, mines got the fastest recharging valve made, yada yada yada....mine mine mine.

thats the level of mentality of many paintballers. Unfortunately.

good point, yakitori

[MadPSIence]

good point, yakitori

He's right. BUt I'd still rather not cop out on behalf of kids being tools.

[phantomhitman]

Yes, people that sweetspot in games while denouncing ramping are hypocrites. People with this mentality no doubt exist on this board but I'd like to hope they are a very small minority. There are idiots everywhere, what can you do?
Most intelligent post yet.

Ramping is not cheating in tourneys that allow it, which is just about every tourney. The ONLY reason ramping is around is because it was getting so dam hard to catch the cheaters, so they made a limit (15bps) and basically said we dont care how you shoot as long as you dont break 15bps.

Ramping on a rec field is just plain stupid. Unless you are practicing with other who use it, or are gearing up for a tourney there is absolutely no reason for ramping. I have witnessed 2 incidents in the past 3 weeks were a kid with an angel g7 ramped his way into getting yelled at and left the field. It is just ignorant.

Bouncing/rt/runaway/sweetspot on a mag is 100% illegal at tourneys as well as fields. It is not 1 shot per pull and it is not capped at 15bps. I takes about 30 minutes of practice to find the sweet spot of the trigger, so it is not like a lost artform or anything. You are holding you finger at the breaking point, you are not even pulling the trigger! Try to get in a local tourney or major event with competent refs and see what happens. I understand ao being biased towards mags, but give me a break.

With all that being said, I hate ramping, added shots, cheating boards, boucning, runaway, sweet spotting. It all takes away the skill of pulling a trigger fast. It should all be banned, but that is impossible. Some idiot will always try to cheat regardless of skill level, marker, or location. I have seen new people cheat as much as tourney players by wiping, flipping on full auto switchs of their low end guns, playing on, having velocities set purposely high, and bashing other newer players/kids. This goes back to the old school also, with trying to up input pressures, hiding paint onto the field, fingering cocking rods, and the ever so infamous wiping. Humans will always cheat, and that cannot be stopped (unfotunately).

[ottomobile]

Most intelligent post yet.

Ramping is not cheating in tourneys that allow it, which is just about every tourney. The ONLY reason ramping is around is because it was getting so dam hard to catch the cheaters, so they made a limit (15bps) and basically said we dont care how you shoot as long as you dont break 15bps.

Ramping on a rec field is just plain stupid. Unless you are practicing with other who use it, or are gearing up for a tourney there is absolutely no reason for ramping. I have witnessed 2 incidents in the past 3 weeks were a kid with an angel g7 ramped his way into getting yelled at and left the field. It is just ignorant.

Bouncing/rt/runaway/sweetspot on a mag is 100% illegal at tourneys as well as fields. It is not 1 shot per pull and it is not capped at 15bps. I takes about 30 minutes of practice to find the sweet spot of the trigger, so it is not like a lost artform or anything. You are holding you finger at the breaking point, you are not even pulling the trigger! Try to get in a local tourney or major event with competent refs and see what happens. I understand ao being biased towards mags, but give me a break.

With all that being said, I hate ramping, added shots, cheating boards, boucning, runaway, sweet spotting. It all takes away the skill of pulling a trigger fast. It should all be banned, but that is impossible. Some idiot will always try to cheat regardless of skill level, marker, or location. I have seen new people cheat as much as tourney players by wiping, flipping on full auto switchs of their low end guns, playing on, having velocities set purposely high, and bashing other newer players/kids. This goes back to the old school also, with trying to up input pressures, hiding paint onto the field, fingering cocking rods, and the ever so infamous wiping. Humans will always cheat, and that cannot be stopped (unfotunately).


For the most part I agree with your last statement. Ramping and runnaway should be banned. Its just not safe. Rather than catering to cheaters they should just ban all RT/runnaways/ramoing. I'd rather give up RTing than surcumb to cheaters with no skill. 100% semi-auto all the time and if you get caught cheating, that should earn you an instant life-time ban from the sport. No exceptions.
Sweetspoting however isn't 100% illegal. PEV's runs the largest operation on the east coast and their rules only ban ramping, not mechanical RT's for amateur tournements. In fact I've played their with my RT and it was cleared by the judges with no problems. They seem to only check electros.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on sweetspoting. All I know is that I've spent a lot more than 30 minutes with my RT and I'm still learning how to hit the sweet spot and while the RT does push my finger I push back every time. It sure as heck feels like I'm pulling every shot. But if giving it up brings some sanity back to the game I'm all for it.
I think we can let Tippmann have their RT though. I have never seen anyone able to rip that thing!

[yakitori]

He's right. BUt I'd still rather not cop out on behalf of kids being tools.

again w/ the cop out talk. :rolleyes: grow up already. Everyone knows my point of view on it. Ive been saying this about sweetspotting mags or tippmann RTs back when ppl were moaning about ramping. I dont use it. Remember PSI, when you wouldnt get it through your thick head my point of view, then started calling me a cheater and stuff just because I dont grab a soap box and moan everytime someone ramps. Dont start that crap again.

and YES ppl can get through a rope of paint at 15+bps. Firstly, the person has to be laning the right spot, and secondly it has to hit AND break. I get through more than 15bps ropes all the time. And also those welts couldve been caused by a mag being sweetspotted right. Or they couldve been caused by an electro in semi auto too. Stop blaming ramping.

[Automaggot68]

And also those welts couldve been caused by a mag being sweetspotted right. Or they couldve been caused by an electro in semi auto too. Stop blaming ramping.


The poster said that the other shooter was shooting legally,in semi.
There were no hard feelings either, they were friends.



Tournament Play, MSPA series. Semi finals, me against 2. I bunker a guy on right tape, their other player is behind the next bunker. As I continue, looks as though he comes to lane, connects with my arm, I begin to walk off the field. He comes out shooting again for the ones in the back. 17 total hits, some are unvisible from the camera angle. No ramping, PSP, NXL, or anything. Hey, if I was in the same place, I might have freaked out like that too. He's a great person and really didn't mean to do it, just heat of the moment. It happens sometimes, just thought I'd share. Thanks for all the comments, you guys really got me laughing a few times. And yes, it's nice and yellow and black now, looks great :D We chrono after each game in our series, he was not hot all day long, it was just a close shot. Yeah, it sucked, but I had an excellent tournament, and thats all that really matters :dance:

[ottomobile]

I love this place. Its so much more friendly than PBN and we get to have to such healthy conversations... I think I feel a group hug coming on! :cheers:

[Automaggot68]

I love this place. Its so much more friendly than PBN and we get to have to such healthy conversations... I think I feel a group hug coming on! :cheers:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/StaticKnight/grouphug.gif

[yakitori]

Ya automaggot, I wasnt talking about that particular thread, but thanks for clearing that up. I did go read that post. I was responding to PSIs comment on the top of page 2 where he says ALL the random posts of "look at my welts" w/ 10+ a direct result of ramping. :rolleyes:

It just seems like AO tends to snap against ramping even when that wasnt the cause of the welts. That many welts could have very easily been done by a semi auto. It just seems like ppl are looking for some reason to blame ramping for someones bodily harm.

[Automaggot68]

Ya automaggot, I wasnt talking about that particular thread, but thanks for clearing that up. I did go read that post. I was responding to PSIs comment on the top of page 2 where he says ALL the random posts of "look at my welts" w/ 10+ a direct result of ramping. :rolleyes:

It just seems like AO tends to snap against ramping even when that wasnt the cause of the welts. That many welts could have very easily been done by a semi auto. It just seems like ppl are looking for some reason to blame ramping for someones bodily harm.


Ahh yeah, my bad.
Thought you were refering to that post.
I myself don't see ramping as a problem.
I don't ever use it, but on my predator timmy, it was alot of fun to screw around with in my backyard.
Will I use ramping on my mag?
Naw. I'm fast enough on the trigger.
The best part about these guys posting about ramping,
is that I bet 80% on here rarely if ever play paintball.

[Steelrat]

Zmans video was the example, you see often enough "I just crank up the input pressure and go to town" though on here, or some such, and everyone (ok, not everyone, but you know what I mean) seems to think thats acceptable while at the same time, many of them whine about ramping.

Someone aleady said why that is. Zak (and me, the guy with the 31 bps viking vid) ONLY do that for show and entertainment. Ramping is used during gameplay, and thats what people whine about. Neither Zak nor myself ever dragged our 30+ bps guns out on the field because its not practical, and frankly its stupid.

[ottomobile]

Here's a question nobody has asked. With all this ramping and sweetspoting going on shooting mountains of paint why am I still paying $60 a case?!

[Steelrat]

Here's a question nobody has asked. With all this ramping and sweetspoting going on shooting mountains of paint why am I still paying $60 a case?!

Because people keep paying it.

[Target Practice]

Here's a question nobody has asked. With all this ramping and sweetspoting going on shooting mountains of paint why am I still paying $60 a case?!

Same reason that people will drive an SUV that gets 15 miles to the gallon with gas being $3.15 a gallon.

[ottomobile]

Same reason that people will drive an SUV that gets 15 miles to the gallon with gas being $3.15 a gallon.

Dude! You live in the coolest place ever! To bad they'll never let you play paintball up at the castle, as big as that place is, that would rock!



Yeah, I was just hoping that with so many people using a lot of paint the price would come down. It used to be expensive because of a limited market, now I guess its expensive because, hey, why not!

[Asym]

No reason to chill out, and wasn't trying to come down on anyone I just agree with the original post why is sweetspoting ok but not ramping. IMO its just about the same thing, neither takes much skill, but I do think the ramping is just a tad safer(not by a whole lot though). Ramping can be capped at whatever maximum you set it to, sweetspoting you really don't have any control of your ROF.

But I am offended by the term cheater board, that implys that I'm a cheater. Just because its a common term used for them doesn't make it right, kind of like racial slurs. Is ramping legal? yep, so I guess its not cheating.

[Evil Bob]

Lets get our definitions right...

"Full Auto" is a situation in which the marker fires when the trigger is fully depressed and held in the firing position, the trigger only returns to the rest state when the marker stops firing.

"Runaway" is a situation in which the marker fires without imput after the frist trigger event starts it and cannot be stopped until the air sorce is cut.

"Sweet spotting" is a user controled situation (unlike runaway) in which the user applies constant pressure on the trigger and the RT effect returns the trigger a bit harder then the user pulls.

"Ramping" is a situation in which programmed software decides at which point to start adding balls per trigger event.

"Hyper mode" is a situation in which the programmed software interprets what is a trigger event which can include switch noise and any other such electronic anomalies to start a firing event.


Alrighty then...

"Runaway" is never a desireable mode simply from the fact that the user has no control over the firing sequence once the marker goes into runaway.

"Sweetspotting" *IS* not even remotely close to ramping. Ramping artificially adds rounds per trigger event, sweetspotting is still 1 shot per 1 pull in that the trigger is returned to the rest state upon completion of each and every round fired. What makes it a grey area issue is that there is constant pressue applied to the trigger just like when using "Full Auto", the only difference is in the mechanical design of the triggering system in question, one requires the trigger to remain depressed, the other returnd the trigger to the rest state after each firing event. Sweetspotting is technically legal by definition as it is still only one pull per shot fired as the trigger still needs to go through the entire movement curve to fire each individual round. As others have stated, sweetspotting takes a bit of skill to accomplish successfully, ramping does not.

Now the question is do I believe that sweetspotting should be allowed in a tourny despite the fact that it is still technically one shot one pull? My personal take is "No, it shouldn't, it was never intended to be a function of the valve design by AGD, its design bug", therefore it shouldn't be allowed.

-Evil Bob

[JRingold]

Sweetspotting, Ramping, 3-round burst, full auto, whatever, they all have a proper time and place. My main issue with them is when they are used in recreational play where walk-on players could be there for their first time.

The one thing that I will never understand is when an experienced player feels the need to use ramping or even an e-marker when playing recreational ball at an open play where most of the other players are using rentals.

As far as the competitive scene, whatever you crazy :tard: people want to do is great, just leave it on the :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: competition field and quit mowing the muppets that come out to play for fun!

The soapbox is now available for the next rant...

[MadPSIence]

Ahh yeah, my bad.
Thought you were refering to that post.
I myself don't see ramping as a problem.
I don't ever use it, but on my predator timmy, it was alot of fun to screw around with in my backyard.
Will I use ramping on my mag?
Naw. I'm fast enough on the trigger.
The best part about these guys posting about ramping,
is that I bet 80% on here rarely if ever play paintball.

I play every weekend and I practice twice a week. Does that count as rarely if ever?

[Automaggot68]

I play every weekend and I practice twice a week. Does that count as rarely if ever?
Thats awesome!
Next year you can play with SS. DJ89 on Team AO!

[MadPSIence]

Thats awesome!
Next year you can play with SS. DJ89 on Team AO!

who now? :tard:

[stop whining buy a mag]

Sweetspotting is not a "skill". I've been able to show a first time player how to do it 3 minutes before a game. A friend of mine has an RT ULE with the ULT. Preset tank with 6 shims I believe. If you can put your finger up against the top part of the Viperblade trigger then all you have to do is hold it there.

Sweetspotting is not Semi. Your finger isn't even moving enough to justify that you "pulled and released the trigger." You simply sat back, put your finger in the right spot and let the trigger bounce back on it after the sear kicks it back.

And no, I don't ramp. Semi is just fine for me.

[ottomobile]

Sweetspotting is not a "skill". I've been able to show a first time player how to do it 3 minutes before a game. A friend of mine has an RT ULE with the ULT. Preset tank with 6 shims I believe. If you can put your finger up against the top part of the Viperblade trigger then all you have to do is hold it there.

Sweetspotting is not Semi. Your finger isn't even moving enough to justify that you "pulled and released the trigger." You simply sat back, put your finger in the right spot and let the trigger bounce back on it after the sear kicks it back.

And no, I don't ramp. Semi is just fine for me.

What's moving enough? I have the trigger stops set on my impulse so the trigger pull is about a millimeter. The weight of my finger is enough to fire that. You won't hear anyone calling that sweetspotting even though I garuntee the RT pushes my finger more than a millimeter. Most semi-auto electros have sub 4mm trigger pulls and hairpin triggers so you cannot use distance as a measure of weather a gun is semi-out or not. Evil Bob is absolutley right and if you disaggree set up a lab experiment and see for yourselves.
Your finger will be pushed back by the RT and the ONLY way to make it fire again is to increase the resistance in your finger. You may not think its much but it is measurable and by definition is one shot per trigger pull.

And a skill is anything that has to be learned. You may be able to teach sweetspotting in minutes but several of us are still honing it. The point is you have to learn it.
Ramping requires no learning. At a pre-determined point a computer begins to add shots to your pulls. This requires no technique from the user. The user is still operating the marker as it would any other semi-auto but the computer makes it faster.

[Lohman446]

If jarring the marker or the tank causes the marker to fire it is not enough - thats in answer to your impulse question and the rules (ASTM safety standards / NPPL / PSP) pretty well state that one.

In regards to the RT question, I think its a joke on these boards how much we justify run away - not the RT effect that kicks the trigger back - but run away and sweet spotting. Come on, you don't truly beleive those should constitute trigger pulls do you?

[Lohman446]

And a skill is anything that has to be learned. You may be able to teach sweetspotting in minutes but several of us are still honing it. The point is you have to learn it.
Ramping requires no learning. At a pre-determined point a computer begins to add shots to your pulls. This requires no technique from the user. The user is still operating the marker as it would any other semi-auto but the computer makes it faster.

Slippery slope....

I have seen people who have never played before handed traditionally ramping markers (4 trigger pulls per second to ramp). They could not do it at first and had to "learn how" thus it is a skill because it requires learning (and Im adding or natural talent) to do according to your definition of having to learn.

[yakitori]

What's moving enough? I have the trigger stops set on my impulse so the trigger pull is about a millimeter. The weight of my finger is enough to fire that. You won't hear anyone calling that sweetspotting even though I garuntee the RT pushes my finger more than a millimeter. Most semi-auto electros have sub 4mm trigger pulls and hairpin triggers so you cannot use distance as a measure of weather a gun is semi-out or not. Evil Bob is absolutley right and if you disaggree set up a lab experiment and see for yourselves.
Your finger will be pushed back by the RT and the ONLY way to make it fire again is to increase the resistance in your finger. You may not think its much but it is measurable and by definition is one shot per trigger pull.

And a skill is anything that has to be learned. You may be able to teach sweetspotting in minutes but several of us are still honing it. The point is you have to learn it.
Ramping requires no learning. At a pre-determined point a computer begins to add shots to your pulls. This requires no technique from the user. The user is still operating the marker as it would any other semi-auto but the computer makes it faster.



This has been argued before and it is not a valid point. For all purposes, RTs, and sweetspotting is not legal. Its not one shot one pull. Its a bouncing rapid firing trigger that is used to gain a firepower advantage against others by using some kind of assistance w/ the trigger rod. The tippmann RT is a similar problem where the rod resets the trigger, but it can be sweetspotted to mimic full auto. Its not a valid argument you are making.

Since you are going around posting links to zak vetters page maybe you should read the one where it says its illegal in a tourney play and will get you DQd? Yep, DQd, your marker anyway. And then good luck bringing the same marker back on the field whether sweetspotting or not.

[BigEvil]

I love this place. Its so much more friendly than PBN and we get to have to such healthy conversations... I think I feel a group hug coming on! :cheers:

AMEN


To chime in the the Ramp/Runaway thing.. I always thought runaway was when you pulled the trigger and the gun kept firing uncontrolably. I think that mayby the term "Bounce" is more appropriate to describe the RT trigger.


I think that this kind of debate had gone on in paintball every single time either a new peice of technology comes out or a new style of play. ...And it is always between the "HAVEs" and HAVE-NOTs"

I remember having this same type of discussion with people when the first 68. Specials hit the field. They were really the first semi to make an impact on the fields.


Trigger enhancements are here to stay.. so you either better evolve or find a new hobby. The real issue with all of this crap will be the enforcement of rules and safety regulations.

[Lohman446]

Trigger enhancements are here to stay.. so you either better evolve or find a new hobby. The real issue with all of this crap will be the enforcement of rules and safety regulations.

ASTM standards (the industry accepted safety guidelines) have long since been thrown by the wayside in the arms race of paintball today. Now we are simply waiting for the next tragedy and series of law suits that will follow it.

[Asym]

Most of the arguments against both ramping and RT/sweetspoting are they don't belong on the rec field. Its a judgement call, you have to be smarter than the gun your firing. At my local field we are allowed to use ramping and RT, but the user has to know when to use it. If I'm against a newer player when using ramping I can still shoot semi-auto and I do, I make sure I don't hammer on the trigger and it won't add shots, this has happens everytime I go play. With RT you can accidently hit the sweetspot and throw a lot of paint up without meaning to.
So I do stand by my ramping is slightly safer, its semi-auto untill you hit the predetermined limit of pulls needed and/or amount of time for ramping to kick in. RT is just RT, "technically" semi-auto even at 20bps.

Ramping and RT should be lumped into the same group, they are both ways to achieve higher rates of fire who cares which you beleive takes skill or not. But ultimately the person using the gun has to be held responsible for what they do with the gun. Maybe the definition of semi-auto needs to be changed to trigger pulls without assistance.

[dolphin1823]

just a question? does the reverse polarity magnet triggers like on the new Shockers and Ions, produce an RT type effect? If so then you have both the sweet spotting ability along with the ramping feature. :confused:

[SlartyBartFast]

Why is it than that one-shot one pull is the hard and fast rule in regards to ramping and anyone who thinks anything else is "cheating" or whatever they are attacked with.

But if you see a mag in runaway mode ala Zak Vetter it becauses such a great thing.


Schenanigans, BS, unworthy of discussion.

I challenge anyone who supports the above claims to come up with any proof an AO hypocite.

Any gun using ramping or sweetspotting to acheive a demonstratable max ROF, is an AWSOME technical proof of the design and capabilities of a marker.

Anyone using ramping, codes, bounce, or sweetspotting to acheive greater ROF than pulled in a game is unworthy and/or a cheat.

Come up with one piece of evedence that that isn't the view of ALL those that love high ROF demos but hate ramping.

[SlartyBartFast]

Trigger enhancements are here to stay.. so you either better evolve or find a new hobby.

More BS and schenanigans. If the rules don't allow enhancements, they don't allow them. NPPL doesn't allow them, PSP does. Who's wrong?

Who gave you the right to define the sport/hobby?

Change is not evolution. Change is not always good. Even if good it is not always necessary.

The only day you can tell anyone to leave the sport because they don't agree with YOUR desired style of play is the day that you own all the fields and manufacturers and run ALL the tournaments.

[Lohman446]

Schenanigans, BS, unworthy of discussion.

I challenge anyone who supports the above claims to come up with any proof an AO hypocite.

Any gun using ramping or sweetspotting to acheive a demonstratable max ROF, is an AWSOME technical proof of the design and capabilities of a marker.

Anyone using ramping, codes, bounce, or sweetspotting to acheive greater ROF than pulled in a game is unworthy and/or a cheat.

Come up with one piece of evedence that that isn't the view of ALL those that love high ROF demos but hate ramping.



Technically speaking, hitting the sweet spot on an RT isn't cheating because you are still firing one shot per one pull of the trigger and your finger still has to move for each shot fired. Sweet-spotting takes practice and is different on every marker. It takes time to develope as a skill. When I started on mags I was really slow, but each time I play I get a little faster.

Cheater boards require no skill use and shoot as many rounds as you want for one trigger pull. Yes, you have to reach 3-5 balls a second for ramping to engage but anyone can shoot an electro 3-5 times a second.

The problem most people who don't like ramping have with it isn't the shear speed, its the skill. If you can shoot 26bps in semi that's awesome, but you're a wuss if all you do is press the firebutton and let computer do all the shooting, and you are taking away from legitimate pros who worked hard to get there.

In my mind its no different than using steroids in Baseball to hit the ball harder. Its an unfair advantage that demeans the skills of real atheletes.


Just one right? I think that I may have overblown how widespread the hypocrisy is, but I do not think I was mistaken in beleiving it exists in this community.

Or http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=182921&highlight=sweet+spot a discussion on increasing reactivity to allow easier sweet spotting

Or http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=181161&highlight=sweet+spot

[ottomobile]

Lohman446 ok, I'll give you the "learning"! :)

You know what's missing from this discussion? Ice cold Beer. Friends should never sit around arguing about things that really aren't that important without something to drink. (if you're under 21 and reading this you get milk) :spit_take

ok back to the topic.

Ramping... :sleeping:

[Lohman446]

Lohman446 ok, I'll give you the "learning"! :)

You know what's missing from this discussion? Ice cold Beer. Friends should never sit around arguing about things that really aren't that important without something to drink. (if you're under 21 and reading this you get milk) :spit_take

ok back to the topic.

Ramping... :sleeping:


:cheers: Tell you what, I'll even by the first round - OGD, next year.

[ottomobile]

Sweet...

So, now that I'm thinking about it. Since one of the guys was saying that sweetspotting was banned from professional tourneyment do guys think that banning RTs marked the end of mags in the tourney scene? It probably wasn't this way, but it seems like one year the mag was on top and the next is was on the clearance shelf

[Lohman446]

Sweet...

So, now that I'm thinking about it. Since one of the guys was saying that sweetspotting was banned from professional tourneyment do guys think that banning RTs marked the end of mags in the tourney scene? It probably wasn't this way, but it seems like one year the mag was on top and the next is was on the clearance shelf

The RT mag was never banned in the major tournaments by name. Only markers that could be sweet spotted by the judges were. If you had your marker set up to prevent it, then it was legal. I think the RT mag just represented too many complications and issues for tournament play if the refs decided to check closely (though this could be applied to many other markers): Sweet spotting issues, published RT chrongraph procedure - add to that the problems that many people had with getting LX to work right after the failure of the original superbolt and there were a lot of circumstances in the market (the electro surge) that unfortunately hurt the mag more than they should have.

[SlartyBartFast]

Just one right? I think that I may have overblown how widespread the hypocrisy is, but I do not think I was mistaken in beleiving it exists in this community.

Or http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=182921&highlight=sweet+spot a discussion on increasing reactivity to allow easier sweet spotting

Or http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=181161&highlight=sweet+spot

Neither of those threads shows "hypocricy. Only that some members of AO want to sweet spot or increase reactivity.

Is it American hypocrisy that some are Republican and some are Democrat? Is an American who supports an idea a hypocrit because the majority are against it?

No. Of course not.

Show me proof of specific members who speak out against ramping in one thread and then support bouncing or sweet spotting in another. ANd that in both threads the issue is use during a game.

And even then you'd have no right whatsoever to call AO hypocritical. Only those specific members.

[hitech]

I believe that I have been one of the more outspoken opponents of ramping. I have on MANY occasions referred to it as cheating. However, you won't find any posts by me that claim "run away" with a 'mag during a game is acceptable. NONE (I deleted them :rofl: ) I have never condoned using it in a game.

Now, using ramping, run away or full auto to demonstrate the firing capabilities of a marker is perfectly acceptable. I've done it myself (20 bps hyperframed 'mag :headbang: ).

Ramping received most of the negative comments because it has shown to be the hardest to detect and to stop.


Here's the beer...
:cheers:

[Asym]

Anyone using ramping, codes, bounce, or sweetspotting to acheive greater ROF than pulled in a game is unworthy and/or a cheat.

Cheat
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
cut and pasted from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cheat

If ramping and RT are allowed its not cheating, so get off your soap box. But I have to give you credit that at least you weren't biased to the ramping/RT > RT/ramping and you think we're all cheating unworthy a-holes.

[Lohman446]

Neither of those threads shows "hypocricy. Only that some members of AO want to sweet spot or increase reactivity.

For what purpose? The demo purpose or for in game?

[hitech]

It had always been against the rules until recently. The only reason a few tournaments decided to allow it is because they couldn't catch the CHEATERS. So, even though it is now within the rules, it was CHEATING before the change. And it's not within the rules in many places.

I still consider it CHEATING. Giving in to the CHEATERS is not acceptable.

And I like soapbox and I'm going to keep it. :p

[WARPED1]

Technically speaking, hitting the sweet spot on an RT isn't cheating because you are still firing one shot per one pull of the trigger and your finger still has to move for each shot fired. Sweet-spotting takes practice and is different on every marker. It takes time to develope as a skill. When I started on mags I was really slow, but each time I play I get a little faster.

Cheater boards require no skill use and shoot as many rounds as you want for one trigger pull. Yes, you have to reach 3-5 balls a second for ramping to engage but anyone can shoot an electro 3-5 times a second.

The problem most people who don't like ramping have with it isn't the shear speed, its the skill. If you can shoot 26bps in semi that's awesome, but you're a wuss if all you do is press the firebutton and let computer do all the shooting, and you are taking away from legitimate pros who worked hard to get there.

In my mind its no different than using steroids in Baseball to hit the ball harder. Its an unfair advantage that demeans the skills of real atheletes.
No. RT is not one pull one shot. You pull the trigger once, and if inputs high enough, the trigger bounces off your finger at fast speeds just like ramping does. That's why before the Eguns came out, the RT was basically banned from every tourney and most fields. Face it, the RT is just as "bad" as a ramping marker.

[SlartyBartFast]

For what purpose? The demo purpose or for in game?

Why does it matter?

If they’re going to use it in a game it means they’re cheaters, not hypocrites.

If you're going to go around charging people with hypocrisy, the burden of proof is on you. Doesn’t matter what purpose those people were going to use it for. They’re only hypocrites if they are going to use it in game AND are against others using ramping.

So, go back and do your homework. Prove that those discussing how to do it either:

1 – Are using it for demo purposes but won’t accept demos using ramping as equally valid as a demo using bounce.

OR

2 – Are using it in-game and have publicly come out against using ramping or modes in-game.

Plus, you and others have charged AO as a community with hypocrisy while only the possible hypocrisy of a few can be shown.

[Automaggot68]

It had always been against the rules until recently. The only reason a few tournaments decided to allow it is because they couldn't catch the CHEATERS. So, even though it is now within the rules, it was CHEATING before the change. And it's not within the rules in many places.

I still consider it CHEATING. Giving in to the CHEATERS is not acceptable.

And I like soapbox and I'm going to keep it. :p


Shoeshine, eh guvna?

[Lohman446]

Plus, you and others have charged AO as a community with hypocrisy while only the possible hypocrisy of a few can be shown.

My first post, I think you are overreading it as applying to the community as a whole rather than some of the members


I think this is a major shortcoming by some of the memers of AO in being logical and consistent in there positions.

[BigEvil]

More BS and schenanigans. If the rules don't allow enhancements, they don't allow them. NPPL doesn't allow them, PSP does. Who's wrong?

Who gave you the right to define the sport/hobby?

Change is not evolution. Change is not always good. Even if good it is not always necessary.

The only day you can tell anyone to leave the sport because they don't agree with YOUR desired style of play is the day that you own all the fields and manufacturers and run ALL the tournaments.

Hey if I had my way we'd all be playing pump, im just stating the nature of things. The cat is out of the bag and no one will be able to put it back in.

I agree that change is not always good, but this is the path that the sport took. Also look at the way these tournies are run now. They know they cant realistically prevent any of these types of enhancements from being used and now they are just content to TRY and regulate them. I dont know about you, but I cant tell the difference between a 15pbs ramp and a 17bps ramp. BUT, in some instances, 15bps is ok, and 17bps is cheating. Fields are still trying to tackle the enforcement of the basic rules, such as wiping and chroning. While in the big leauges they may have a way of testing these things, the average rec ball field is lucky if they have adiquate reffing for the day.


There are probably more people who are for these 'enhancements' then against. I bet there are a lot of "If I cant beat em, Im gonna join them" people too.

Is it good for the sport? Who can say? What is right for one group may be bad for another. I started playing in 1991. For 9 years I never owned a cup. Now I check to make sure i have it even before I pack my guns. It's not the same game anymore. These trends trickel down from the top of the paintball world all the way eventually to the newbies.

Like I said earlier. We have these same debates EVERY TIME the game evolves.

I guess if it were bad, less people would be playing. Is that the case?

[Beemer]

ASTM standards (the industry accepted safety guidelines) have long since been thrown by the wayside in the arms race of paintball today. Now we are simply waiting for the next tragedy and series of law suits that will follow it.

You said ASTM and Standards and Safety :clap:

Really it was the industry that CREATED the standards and then decided to ignore them. 41 people in the industry on the subcommittee that care about your safety.

The first thing you will hear is, Oh those are voluntary.

Maybe that is why AGD fell behind. He helped create and put his name on those standards and refused to just ignore them like everyone else :nono:

Only valve around that I know of that is stamped, rated at 3000psi[ASTM Standard]

Peace Out

___________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[dolphin1823]

No. RT is not one pull one shot. You pull the trigger once, and if inputs high enough, the trigger bounces off your finger at fast speeds just like ramping does. That's why before the Eguns came out, the RT was basically banned from every tourney and most fields. Face it, the RT is just as "bad" as a ramping marker.

back then before LVL 10 you had a good chance of having a blender, which is no good.
I'm surprised this thread has gone on this long, becasue how many RT trigger markers are used nowadays in tournys?? Maybe to few for anyone to care about.
In rec ball there's the A-5 which is very easy to sweet spot, took me 2 tries to get it to work, but the rate of fire wasn't very high IMO.
The X-valves are less reactive than the classic RT valves, I don't know how the ULT on/off affects that, but I though I read it made it even less reacative than the stock on/off. Other than those to markers I can't think of another that has an RT trigger, maybe the M98 has a mod for it, I can't remember.

As a mech Mag shooter, the only consern I have about ramping is safty in a Rec ball format. Having a new player, friend or family shot up alot. I know overshooting is all on the player and not on the gun, so maybe my fears are false, like the fear I had that the Flatline barrel was going to ruin paintball.
I feel its ok in Tournys, in fact I've thought about it and changed my opinion. I think its good that it levels the playing field, even though some feel that shooting fast is a skill, I think its more important that the team with better playing skills wins and not the ones with faster markers. If every marker can shoot 15 bps, then the team with better movement, accurecy and communication skills should win. Kinda like in base ball, the team with the better hitters should win, not a team with better bats.

[Faddy]

just a question? does the reverse polarity magnet triggers like on the new Shockers and Ions, produce an RT type effect? If so then you have both the sweet spotting ability along with the ramping feature. :confused:

No, it won't.

The following description is just an example, it is not exactly how the RT works. So please don't tell me my numbers are wrong, I know that already.

In an RT, let's say it requires 2lbs of pressure to trip the sear and fire the marker. Well, the RT pushes the trigger back at a number higher than that...say 4 lbs. Part of sweetspotting is getting your pull weight somewhere between the firing pressure and the return pressure. Too much pressure (over the return pressure) and you'll only get one shot. Not enough pressure (under the firing pressure) and you won't be able to trip the sear and the marker won't fire.

With magnetic triggers, they work just like springs. The pull weight and return weight will stay constant throughout the pull. Technically speaking, the further the two magnets in the trigger in the frame get from one another, the less pull they have, meaning it has the opposite effect of the RT. Now, the distances they get from each other are so small this doesn't really make an effect, but just something to say to show that you will not get "reactivity" from magnetic triggers.

Now...if someone made an "electro-magnetic trigger" then you could possibly get some reactivity...but thats a whole new can of worms. :D

[SlartyBartFast]

My first post, I think you are overreading it as applying to the community as a whole rather than some of the members

Very well. But others in this thread and others have tarnished all of AO with the same brush.

But my challenge still stands. Find a hypocrite and prove it. If you can prove it, bring it up with the member in question. If you can’t, general “feelings” and accusations should be brought up.

[ottomobile]

No. RT is not one pull one shot. You pull the trigger once, and if inputs high enough, the trigger bounces off your finger at fast speeds just like ramping does. That's why before the Eguns came out, the RT was basically banned from every tourney and most fields. Face it, the RT is just as "bad" as a ramping marker.

Hmm, I don't think you've understood me. I've already demonstrated that you do have to apply a force usually through your finger to the trigger each and every firing cycle. If you replaced your finger with a rigid rod the marker would fire once and stop because the rod doesn't move. The RT effect is caused by the returning trigger moving your finger. Your finger swings back with more force and momentum slams into the trigger and repeats. Peak sweetspoting happens when your finger and the trigger reach equalibrium essentially bouncing off of each other. Since you have to intentionally move your finger its still one shot per trigger pull. Every time you move your finger past the firing point it has to be considered a trigger pull. So what I'm saying is that in RT mode you are physically the cause of each and every shot where in Ramping the computer is partially responsible.

A more valid comparison would be to say that both RTs and Ramped markers are semi automatic machines that have mechanisms so that when fired rapidly they exhibit non-semi automatic characteristics. The latter utilizing a computer to add shots up to 15 bps, the former utilizing a force-feedback mechanism.

[SlartyBartFast]

Only valve around that I know of that is stamped, rated at 3000psi[ASTM Standard]

But if you put hose between the valve and the tank that can’t hold 3000psi you’re violating the ASTM standard. Do Automags ship with 3000psi rated hose?

Anyways, you’re reading the ASTM standard wrong. It doesn’t say that a marker needs to accept and withstand 3000psi. It says that it can’t fail catastrophically.

So, putting in a burst disk that vents long before the marker can be damaged is sufficient to meet the ASTM standard. the only violation is that few (do any?) markers incorporate burst disks or other controlled failure devices for the case where a user is dim enough to directly hook up a 3000psi tank without a regulator or the off chance that the regulator or tank burst disks fail to work.

The fact that all tanks have burst disks should be sufficient anyways even if reliance on tank burst disks for marker protection might break the letter of the ASTM standard.

[Lohman446]

But if you put hose between the valve and the tank that can’t hold 3000psi you’re violating the ASTM standard. Do Automags ship with 3000psi rated hose?

Anyways, you’re reading the ASTM standard wrong. It doesn’t say that a marker needs to accept and withstand 3000psi. It says that it can’t fail catastrophically.

So, putting in a burst disk that vents long before the marker can be damaged is sufficient to meet the ASTM standard. the only violation is that few (do any?) markers incorporate burst disks or other controlled failure devices for the case where a user is dim enough to directly hook up a 3000psi tank without a regulator or the off chance that the regulator or tank burst disks fail to work.

The fact that all tanks have burst disks should be sufficient anyways even if reliance on tank burst disks for marker protection might break the letter of the ASTM standard.

It actually says the marker can be no good after it, it just must leak in a way to not cause injury to the user to be considered non-catastrophic. At least as I read it.

[slade]

But my challenge still stands. Find a hypocrite and prove it. If you can prove it, bring it up with the member in question. If you can’t, general “feelings” and accusations should be brought up.
no one is monitoring every member. he is just pointing out that in just about every thread about a RT mag shooting insanely fast with sweetspotting, the general consensus is "OMG that is so awesome!!!" but in most threads on the topic of ramping, the majority of the posts are somewhat along the line of "those cheating bastards!"


Hmm, I don't think you've understood me. I've already demonstrated that you do have to apply a force usually through your finger to the trigger each and every firing cycle. If you replaced your finger with a rigid rod the marker would fire once and stop because the rod doesn't move. The RT effect is caused by the returning trigger moving your finger. Your finger swings back with more force and momentum slams into the trigger and repeats. Peak sweetspoting happens when your finger and the trigger reach equalibrium essentially bouncing off of each other. Since you have to intentionally move your finger its still one shot per trigger pull. Every time you move your finger past the firing point it has to be considered a trigger pull. So what I'm saying is that in RT mode you are physically the cause of each and every shot where in Ramping the computer is partially responsible.
you dont have to physically pull the trigger each shot by any means... it is "RT" if the trigger returns to its origional position with more force than was required to actuate the trigger. therefore, if you found the proper spring (length and rigidity) you could set up the marker to fire continuously without even putting a finger on it.

[Lohman446]

Edited: Out of respect I have made this post into a PM to Slarty who asked for me to give the example... I trust he will at some point tell you guys I gave him an example

[maglover728]

Does anyone here play in the woods? I have seen A5s move paint pretty damn fast and they are legal. Weather they have the RT grip or their electro grip, for suppression fire you can count on the A5 to lay it down.

Now, If they can do that, why should anyone keep me from upping the input pressure of my mag until I can do the same? These kids show up with their Ions and ramping boards, bring 2 cases of paint out into the woods and leave their case of skill at home, never mind, their daddy couldn't buy them the skill.

Tact, communications, balls and respect is what gets the job done in the woods. Having a marker that puts down lots of paint is just a bonus when covering your team mate while he moves up.

[Automaggot68]

Does anyone here play in the woods? I have seen A5s move paint pretty damn fast and they are legal. Weather they have the RT grip or their electro grip, for suppression fire you can count on the A5 to lay it down.

Now, If they can do that, why should anyone keep me from upping the input pressure of my mag until I can do the same? These kids show up with their Ions and ramping boards, bring 2 cases of paint out into the woods and leave their case of skill at home, never mind, their daddy couldn't buy them the skill.

Tact, communications, balls and respect is what gets the job done in the woods. Having a marker that puts down lots of paint is just a bonus when covering your team mate while he moves up.

Yeah! go get' em commando!

[SlartyBartFast]

no one is monitoring every member. he is just pointing out that in just about every thread about a RT mag shooting insanely fast with sweetspotting, the general consensus is "OMG that is so awesome!!!" but in most threads on the topic of ramping, the majority of the posts are somewhat along the line of "those cheating bastards!"

But is anyone cheering the awsome speed and capability of the RT and then saying they want ot go onto a game field with that setup?

It's two different things. And to link the two and tehn blame AO with hypocrisy is just stupid.

And Lohman, post your 'example' if you want. I don't think it is one.

Even if TK used the modified autoresponse to make a full auto Mag, and has always said accuracy is attained through volume, he always seemed to be on the side of following the rules.

[phantomhitman]

But is anyone cheering the awsome speed and capability of the RT and then saying they want ot go onto a game field with that setup?



why yes, yes they did. their reason stated is to keep up with the new e markers out there.......

[SlartyBartFast]

why yes, yes they did. their reason stated is to keep up with the new e markers out there.......

Fine, but that's individuals, not AO as a whole.

And they are only hypocirites if they want bounce while call for banning ramping.

[DaveSM]

I feel its ok in Tournys, in fact I've thought about it and changed my opinion. I think its good that it levels the playing field, even though some feel that shooting fast is a skill, I think its more important that the team with better playing skills wins and not the ones with faster markers. If every marker can shoot 15 bps, then the team with better movement, accurecy and communication skills should win. Kinda like in base ball, the team with the better hitters should win, not a team with better bats.

What if shooting fat was a skill? You think you level the field but you level the skills of the players. I know someone who was shooting above the average before ramping started up and now he is pissed up because others shoots as fast as him and don't have any skills. Communication and movements are key for this sport I admit but before ramping skills had much more impacts. I see less and less front players. The more and more players tend to stick on their bunker and throw ropes of paint. Highly reactive RT shouldn't be used in game situation just as ramping. If you use it to show the capability of a marker, from a technical view point, it is correct but don't use them in a game.

[Dawg047]

The way I see it, who cares? Who cares if the RT doesn't require you to pull your finger everytime(in my opinion it does it is just so minute you don't notice), who cares if ramping does not require skill? The truth is, it is out there and what are we going to do about it? Well, I can tell you that the rec-fields love ramping and RT's because people are shooting paint. Paint means more money for the field. As far as in tournaments, who cares if someone is using ramping or RT? If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Just the other day I was playing X-ball with my classic mag. Now, this team from another field came down and they were all on a team against us rec-players. I had my mag, my other team mates had spyders and maybe a ION. Well, they were all using Timmy's and guess what, I shot one running the tape, I buckered one in the snake and I shot the one in the 50. Yep, there was paint flying everywhere, yep, they were ramping. Did I care? Nope, keep your cool and you can do anything. It all comes down to experience. You got to be smarter than the other players no matter what you or them are shooting. Well, that was my rambling and crazy paintball story for the evening. ;)

[ottomobile]

The way I see it, who cares? Who cares if the RT doesn't require you to pull your finger everytime(in my opinion it does it is just so minute you don't notice), who cares if ramping does not require skill? The truth is, it is out there and what are we going to do about it? Well, I can tell you that the rec-fields love ramping and RT's because people are shooting paint. Paint means more money for the field. As far as in tournaments, who cares if someone is using ramping or RT? If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Just the other day I was playing X-ball with my classic mag. Now, this team from another field came down and they were all on a team against us rec-players. I had my mag, my other team mates had spyders and maybe a ION. Well, they were all using Timmy's and guess what, I shot one running the tape, I buckered one in the snake and I shot the one in the 50. Yep, there was paint flying everywhere, yep, they were ramping. Did I care? Nope, keep your cool and you can do anything. It all comes down to experience. You got to be smarter than the other players no matter what you or them are shooting. Well, that was my rambling and crazy paintball story for the evening. ;)


I think you are missing the point. We've all discussed whether or not ramping and RT are the same or different. But the two core isues are money and safety and here's why:

Saftey:
Before ramping the number of player who could shoot more then 15bps was very small and reserved for just a few elite. Even most pro-players counldn't hit that speed on the field. Now paintball is a very safe sport but the more projectiles in the air, the more opporuntities for injury. We all no what a paintball shot looks like and the bruises you can get. But here's the thing, as ramping proliferates and more and more people are shooting at 10+bps suddenly the landscape is different. Can your googles take 10 or 20 shots at once without breaking? Can your skin take that many without hemeraging? PGI magazine reported that injuries were up this year in the PSP and the NXL has a higher injury rate than either the PSP or NPPL directly due to the increased speed of all the guns. At the pro-level things are a little safter. Team sponsors can afford to equip their teams with high-end safty gear. On the rec field its a different story. Saftey is a much bigger concern when a $1500 marker is matched against at $30 mask and minimal saftey gear. I'm not saying they aren't sufficient, but the concerns need to validated or invalidated.

Money:
All professional athletes want to make a lot of money. They work very hard at developing their skills and want to be well paid for it. Owners want their team to have a competitive advantage over other teams and will pay a lot of money to get it. Shooting fast is a skill. Without a ramping computer athletes work for years honing their skills to shoot fast. Shooting fast is only an advantage if you are faster than the next guy. By allowing ramping guns you are effectivly negating a skill of a professional player. Think of it like this: In the NFL recievers are restricted as to the types of gloves they can wear. A player cannot wear 'sticky' gloves to enhance his play. Why? Because players like Jerry Rice have worked really hard to become the reciever he is. If everyone could catch a ball like Rice just by wearing a pair of gloves then good wide recievers would not be in demand, saleries would drop and players would spend less time developing their skills and the quality of the game would drop. Why should a future Jerry Rice play in a league where his talents would be negated by a $20 pair of gloves?
Its the same for paintball. Shooting fast is just one small aspect of the game, true, but it still is an important one.

There is a third reason to decry ramping and that is ethics. The PSP and NPPL have stated that the ONLY reason ramping has been allowed this year and capped at 15bps is that cheating in previous years had become rampant and they felt that the only way to police and control it was to legalize and regulate it. While this logic works for some it is ultimatly flawed. To legitimize an activity simply because a large section of the populace does it anyway is stupid. If that logic held true in government the speed limit should be around 85 because everyone speeds. The NPPL and PSP went in the wrong dircetion. If they had held a confrence and looked at the technology, saw it as an important advance to the game, then thats a good reason to legalize it. But they have stated that is only to regulate the rampant cheating. If thats the case then they would have been much better off enacting a strict penalty system to punish offenders. You cheat, you are expelled from the event. You cheat again, your team is banned for life from professsional events. harsh? yeah, but I garuntee you you won't see as much cheating.