The skillset of paintball, should trigger speed be one?

[Lohman446]

I see one of the concerns of the ramping debate is that it negates a skill that some players have honed over the years and many many more claim to have. It gives the ability to shoot 15BPS to virtually anyone who wants it and that negates this skill. I have seen it recently compared to the ability of a receiver to catch a football, or of a baseball player to hit home runs.

Every sport tests certain skill sets, be they the ability to hit a ball or puck, run, jump, skate, whatever. There skills that are part of the game.

I am not for a moment debating that shooting fast is or is not a skill, what I am asking is much simplier.

Should (not is) the ability to shoot fast be part of the skill set that paintball tests?

[Raven001]

"Should (not is) the ability to shoot fast be part of the skill set that paintball tests?"

I think yes, the ability to shoot fast is a part of the skills required by a paintballer. The question is how many bollas por segundo is fast enough? I think 9 is good enough but that's cause thats as fast as I can come up with. If you can put 13 - 15 bps in the air you can block someone from running from point A to point B, you can hold someone down while your mate moves up or you can just impress the heck out of some little cuttie in the stands. Two out of the three can help you in a game. Then again Marty Bush played with a pump and generally did well against the then powerhouse semi markers like the Mag or the Cocker...

Again yes but not one of the most important skill. That IMO would be hitting what you aim for....

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Yes. Although in my mind it's a second-place skill that compensates for imperfect reflexes and the inability to hit a moving target. High ROF paintball requires just as much skill to play as stock-class, but the skills are different. More defensive, IMO, and with a shallower learning-curve. Except for a fast trigger, which remains tough to master. Not many people can shoot more than 10bps with a mechanical gun, or even a non-ramped electro. The ramping & FA electros take away that hard-earned advantage.

[Recon by Fire]

I think the tournaments should allow type of fire mode you want; turb, burst, ramping, full-auto, you name it! Just one thing though, no pods allowed! You only play with what your hopper :) How fast will that make you want to shoot?

[Kwaidd]

i may have misunderstood the question or motive behind it, but personally I feel that shooting fast should not be a test of skill for the game of paintball. I feel that because of the industry and the idea that you need to have the fastest guns out there, have promoted that to a point to where it's unfortunately necessary to do so. The spray and pray mentallity that has become the norm in paintball has really turned off alot of folks that i know, myself included to the game that it is today.
Alot of people like speedball, and that's fine. I like the scenario/woods side of the game that relies on how well you can move/sneak around undetected, and how well you can fire off a few well placed rounds to take your adversaries out. My goal everytime i go out is to see how many players i can take out vs. the least amount of rounds fired. Of course, i started with pump guns, and now use the same mechanical marker ive had for 5 years.
so in short, i guess i dont call shooting rediculously fast sending vast walls of paint into the air a skill, especially since the guns made today allow anyone regardless of skill to do just that.

[BD_Paintball]

yea it should be. if you have really fast fingers then it will give you an advantage that some of the other players will not have. in college(where me and my brother) are going to be playing its uncapped true semi so having fast fingers will help alot.

edit: i see you like to ask these kind of questions, like the ramping thread

[Lohman446]

I don't like ramping for safety reasons, I am going to state that right before I answer my own question.

That being said, of all the skills to test in paintball there is no way, in my mind, that being able to shoot fast should be one of them. Is shooting fast a skill? Yes. Without ramping can it effect the outcome of a game? Yes. Should it be a skill that is allowed to influence the outcome of the game? No. Somehow in this arms race we added a, in my opinion, ridiculous skill to our skill set that we are testing.

[BD_Paintball]

I don't like ramping for safety reasons, I am going to state that right before I answer my own question.

That being said, of all the skills to test in paintball there is no way, in my mind, that being able to shoot fast should be one of them. Is shooting fast a skill? Yes. Without ramping can it effect the outcome of a game? Yes. Should it be a skill that is allowed to influence the outcome of the game? No. Somehow in this arms race we added a, in my opinion, ridiculous skill to our skill set that we are testing.
are u saying that you sould not be able to shoot fast in ramping or in semi b/c it will influence the outcome of the game??

[Lohman446]

are u saying that you sould not be able to shoot fast in ramping or in semi b/c it will influence the outcome of the game??

I am saying that the ability to shoot fast influencing the game is ridiculous. I know it does, but why? Why do we allow that skill to be part of the skill set tested? If we allow ramping (I have other problems with it) we level the field. We take away a skill that I don't feel has any part in determining the outcome of the game - others may disagree of course. Thats why I ask the question - Should the ability to shoot fast be part of the skill set tested? Should it be a factor in the outcome?

[Steelrat]

Ramping chips are to paintball what the t-ball stand is to baseball. But I don't think the reamping software was made to level the field, but to eliminate or reduce the rampant cheating that was going on in the tournament leagues. It seems as though they were just trying to legalize the speed-enhancing software that was already out there.

Personally, I think ramping sucks. When I started playing there were definately people who could shoot faster than others, and it was cool. It was a recognized skill, like the ability to hit a baseball well or catch a football pass. I don't ever remember hearing anyone complaining about someone being able to shoot too fast, unless it was coming from people with guns that were physically incapable of cycling as fast. Now, with any idiot being able to hit 15 bps one-handed, I personally think the game isn't as enjoyable.

[chairman_mao]

Of course it should be part of the skill set. I would equate it blocking in football. If the lineman could hold they would be on equal footing and the playing feild would be leveled but they can't and there are some players who have better skills at blocking thus their section of the line is usually less likely to be penetrated.

When players have different shooting speeds you create a heterogenious flow to the game because not all of the markers are vomiting out 15 bps. This can work for and against you but it is an aspect of the game that must be addressed tacticly not technologicly. I understand the logic behind it but to give someone instant firepower doesn't make sense to me. IMHO all this does is give them a crutch to limp through the sport with. But what do I know?

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I play more pump than anything else, and shooting faster is still an advantage in that game, too. It's an advantage in stock-class, even. It's just harder to do with a stock or pump gun. It can't be prevented, and it's effects can't be discounted.

[FallNAngel]

Do I think it should be a skill? Absolutely. The problem is, there's tons of idiots out there that don't have that skill, but want it bad enough to cheat to get it. So you have people lowering the debounce on their guns to 1 and or throwing in some mech debounce to hide it from the crono judges. If people wouldn't cheat, I think we'd definately still have it as a skill.

[can'tthink of1]

The one thing I really don't like about ramping is that it allows people to lane easily, to run while shooting fast easier, and people just carry so much paint, it takes the skill out of those things.

[Cow hunter]

i agree with recon, only one pod would be good, make you not wanna fire as much..... but theres also the disadvantage that that rule means you can only have one pod also...... :(

[BD_Paintball]

i think if you put a limit to paint that you could bring on the field then there would be almost no places that would run a tourny like that. they lose money on paint sales and they will also lose money b/c there will not be that many if any that show up. i know i would never play a limited paint tourny. i think if you dont like to play with ppl who have legal guns and fast fingers then play pump.

[punkncat]

There are a lot of tough points and side roads to go down in the above posts. But to get back to the question at hand.
Yes, trigger speed is a skillset that is a definative part of the game and a skill which DOES effect the outcome of games.

To touch on the side note...Ramping's supposed leveling effect is only evident in the # of paintballs flying wastefully through the air. It does not compensate for skill, experiance, and knowledge of the game. It is not terribly difficult as an well versed player to defeat ramping noobs with a trusty straight shooting mech, or (true)semi-electro.

[cdacda13]

IMO, these are the skill sets in paintball(in order)

1) Being smart (its a skill, so many people lack that)
2) Aggesiveness
3) Quickness (not speed)
4) speed
5) fast fingers

If you have the top 4, you dont need the 5th one.

[Arstron]

Yes being able to shoot fast on your own should be a skill set for paintball. If you ask me ramping ranks right up their with full auto, only you do a little bit more work ramping. I will stop there becuse I dont want to go to far into this subject...

[Lohman446]

IMO, these are the skill sets in paintball(in order)

1) Being smart (its a skill, so many people lack that)
2) Aggesiveness
3) Quickness (not speed)
4) speed
5) fast fingers

If you have the top 4, you dont need the 5th one.


You missed one: Accuracy - I don't care if you have all of those, without accuracy your done...

[oldsoldier]

First, I dont support ramping. It takes away from the game. If EVERYONE can hit 15 easily...well, that negates certain advantages. In the league we play in here in MA, it is unlimited, NO RAMPING. Although, rarely does a gun get pulled...even though it is quite obvious when it does ramp.
Having said that, I think fast fingers are VERY important. Like it or not, tourney ball isnt a "one shot one kill" game. Good teams play tight, and dont flag elbows, hoppers, toes, etc to one ball. therefore, shooting quite a bit at a fast ROF increases your chances of nailing the guy popping out to shoot. By the time you see him, you better have balls in the air. 300 FPS just isnt simply fast enough to hit a guy with one shot.
I am a fairly decent snapshooter. I pop out, take 5-10 shots, pop back in. all less than a second. That in and of itself is a skill; one made easier by the fact that I can shoot fairly quickly. the less time exposed+the more balls I get in the air=the other guy getting shot, hopefully. So yes, shooting fast is VERY important in todays game. However, it alone is a worthless skill without the others. Kinda like if you can throw far, but couldnt throw accurately.

[punkncat]

Like it or not, tourney ball isnt a "one shot one kill" game.


The biggest problem with playing in a true tourney environment isn't that you can't oneball someone. Its the fact that you can't trust that they won't wipe just the one off.

[onedude36]

I think ramping is a nice way to level the playing field for those without those talents ie me. One of my friends however, thinks that it shouldnt be allowed. He has practiced his trigger technique to where he is really fast, but that is the only developed skill he has. He wants to make this a big part of the game, and I, the opposite, want to make it a smaller part of the game.

[calcan311]

The biggest problem with playing in a true tourney environment isn't that you can't oneball someone. Its the fact that you can't trust that they won't wipe just the one off.


One shot one kill is very hard to do when some one is moving. The clothing worn in games now promote alot of bounces. So yes being able to shoot fast increases your change of breaking one on your opponet.

[yakitori]

While I believe that shooting fast is a skill indeed, it is not the most important skill in paintball. I know some ppl that can rip like no other w/ some crazy impressive finger speed, me not being one of those ppl. Only thing is, other more important skills come into play that make one a better paintballer.

Snapshooting, bumping up properly, listening for other teams/your teams communication, listening for other teams guns while they are shooting even when you cant see them you can tell where they are and react. counterbunkering, running and shooting are ALL more important than shooting fast. To me shooting fast doesnt serve much of a purpose if the person isnt in sync w/ their teammates, and not good at paying attention to the other team and knowing when and where to bump to.

Thats my 2 cents.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

IMO, these are the skill sets in paintball(in order)

1) Being smart (its a skill, so many people lack that)
2) Aggesiveness
3) Quickness (not speed)
4) speed
5) fast fingers

If you have the top 4, you dont need the 5th one.

I think those are attributes, or qualities rather than skills.

Shooting accurately, snap-shooting, using cover effectiively are skills.

[chairman_mao]

To touch on the side note...Ramping's supposed leveling effect is only evident in the # of paintballs flying wastefully through the air. It does not compensate for skill, experiance, and knowledge of the game. It is not terribly difficult as an well versed player to defeat ramping noobs with a trusty straight shooting mech, or (true)semi-electro.
I agree with this BUT what about two players or sets of players that have equal skills other than trigger speed? Ramping then negates the advantage the group with the faster fingers had. Granted it may not be that much of an advantage but anything helps

[Lohman446]

I agree with this BUT what about two players or sets of players that have equal skills other than trigger speed? Ramping then negates the advantage the group with the faster fingers had. Granted it may not be that much of an advantage but anything helps

But should that trigger speed advantage be an advantage? Not is I remind you. Should this be part of the skill set that is tested in paintball?

[Arstron]

But should that trigger speed advantage be an advantage? Not is I remind you. Should this be part of the skill set that is tested in paintball?

If trigger speed should NOT be an advantage, then instead of ramping, full auto should be mandated. That way you dont keep the people who shoot really slow out of the picture... :D

[Jeffy-CanCon]

But should that trigger speed advantage be an advantage? Not is I remind you. Should this be part of the skill set that is tested in paintball?

Yes. It's a learned skill. Granted, it's a learned skiil that costs $ to learn, and $ to use. The only way to take it out of the game is to mandate full-auto markers for all players, and that's just silly.

I think I know where you come from, Lohman. As someone who started with Nelspots, and eventually moved on to pump guns and mech semi-autos, I was taken aback by the ease with which even early electros allowed insane trigger speeds. I recall some serious tourney players I knew griping that their hard-earned ability to shoot 15bps on an Automag could now be matched by most any kid with the cash to buy an Angel or Shocker. Putting more paint in the air is an advantage that has to be both learned and paid for ($). In my mind, the most unsporting part is that paintball encourages the strategy of victory through deeper pockets. IMO, competitive paintball should be played with limited paint, and near-identical technology. Technology that emphasies individual skill.

[CKY_Alliance]

I am saying that the ability to shoot fast influencing the game is ridiculous. I know it does, but why? Why do we allow that skill to be part of the skill set tested? If we allow ramping (I have other problems with it) we level the field. We take away a skill that I don't feel has any part in determining the outcome of the game - others may disagree of course. Thats why I ask the question - Should the ability to shoot fast be part of the skill set tested? Should it be a factor in the outcome?

Like you said ramping takes it out if it is a determinging factor or not, ramping levels the playing field. Its like nascar they regulate thier engines with different rules so they level the playing field.

I belive fast fingers could change the outcome, if there were no ramping. If everyone shot striaght uncapped semi then fast fingers could be an advantage.

[chairman_mao]

Yes. It's a learned skill. Granted, it's a learned skiil that costs $ to learn, and $ to use.

So is a golf game


But should that trigger speed advantage be an advantage? Not is I remind you. Should this be part of the skill set that is tested in paintball?
Yes Yes it should be as I stated in my forst post

[Lohman446]

Yes Yes it should be as I stated in my forst post

Why?

[Carbon]

whatever "real" skill players have on the trigger, for the most part, is relative. Relative to what gun is used, how the triggers are setup (pre/post travel) ect ect.

i think the really definitive way to determine trigger skill is to have a industry/promoter standard trigger setup as a baseline to measure skill, which is a pipedream really.

[tyrion2323]

I see one of the concerns of the ramping debate is that it negates a skill that some players have honed over the years and many many more claim to have. It gives the ability to shoot 15BPS to virtually anyone who wants it and that negates this skill. I have seen it recently compared to the ability of a receiver to catch a football, or of a baseball player to hit home runs.

Every sport tests certain skill sets, be they the ability to hit a ball or puck, run, jump, skate, whatever. There skills that are part of the game.

I am not for a moment debating that shooting fast is or is not a skill, what I am asking is much simplier.

Should (not is) the ability to shoot fast be part of the skill set that paintball tests?

All cheating, ramping and turbo modes aside, the ability to walk a trigger quickly and consistently IS a skill. It takes time to learn triggers, how to pace yourself, etc.

Whether or not people want to allow fast fingers be considered part of the game, they already are. There's no use debating it. It's like debating whether we want to consider electros be part of paintball. They already are.

[Lohman446]

Whether or not people want to allow fast fingers be considered part of the game, they already are. There's no use debating it. It's like debating whether we want to consider electros be part of paintball. They already are.


Sure there is, ramping levels the field and makes the skill moot.

[phantomhitman]

Shooting fast is a skill, and only the best at any field can pull over 12-13 bps legally. It is true that different guns shoot faster BECAUSE of the setup, not the internals or electronics. Some guns have lighter triggers, better trigger geometry, better means of trigger adjustments, bigger frames to put bigger hands into (thank you dm5), and so on. People still have to learn to walk the triggers, and after that they have to shoot accurately while walking the trigger. Then the best people mature into walking the trigger, shooting semi-accurately, and running at the same time.
The skill has changed from who can shoot faster/more accurate to who can breakout and move better. This is a tradeoff of 2 completely different talents, some hate it some love it.

[tyrion2323]

Lohman,

Fast fingers are not moot because of ramping and cheat modes. Only in some leagues is ramping allowed.

Just because players use steroids and cork their bats doesn't negate the honest hard work that other players put into their training.

[Lohman446]

Lohman,

Fast fingers are not moot because of ramping and cheat modes. Only in some leagues is ramping allowed.

Just because players use steroids and cork their bats doesn't negate the honest hard work that other players put into their training.


I did not say they were moot - some leagues like the NPPL obviously do not allow ramping yet, and I would like to have faster fingers considering I do not ramp. But ramping does in fact level the field when used

[M98Punk]

What exactly is leveling the playing field? I mean in nascar it's and excuse to create drama sure it makes things fair...it also puts drivers lives in danager. Is steriod use leveling the playing field in baseball? apprently so because that was the only way that modern ball players managed to break old records. I think that cheater boards are part of the mentality that stalled the growth of paintball...sure we all wanna just say it was the recession but the truth is we have cultivated a environment that scares the hell out of new comers and mortalizes Pro's...gone are the days where a young guns tourny was a place where you could play a less intense tourny....like a high school football game compared to college or such. I remember watching Rocky make plays and being awe struck or seeing Lockout play in the late 90's and being amazed that they can move like that and shoot that fast....now any track team washout with a $300 electro can do the same thing

[M98Punk]

For the record I'm a big fan of gravity feed only as a way to level the playing field

[Lohman446]

now any track team washout with a $300 electro can do the same thing

Shenenigans. Bring a track team to a major rookie tournament next year. By your logic they should roll the competition. Unless they also have a lot of experience playing paintball, I doubt it...

[sniper1rfa]

Not going to add my opinion one way or the other (though you smart fellows can derive it, im sure...), however...


If you level the field completely, nobody wins.

where's the fun in that?

SniperEDIT: I suppose i should clarify for those of us who can't see the underlying meaning here.

Allowing ramping negates an advantage somebody has, an advantage they may be using to counter an advantage somebody else has over them, which is how any game is played on a very basic level. If somebody has an advantage over you, find an advantage over them or lose, those are your options.

You dont hear me complaining because i am awful at snapshooting. I use other techniques to make up for it, and on my off time i practice snapshooting.

This is how games work.

Leveling the field actually doesnt.

[11 Bravo]

I am saying that the ability to shoot fast influencing the game is ridiculous. I know it does, but why? Why do we allow that skill to be part of the skill set tested? If we allow ramping (I have other problems with it) we level the field. We take away a skill that I don't feel has any part in determining the outcome of the game - others may disagree of course. Thats why I ask the question - Should the ability to shoot fast be part of the skill set tested? Should it be a factor in the outcome?


Why shouldnt it be a skill that is tested in the game. Shooting fast and trying to get faster has always been part of the game. Even when there were just Nelspots and Splatmasters and then when pumps came out. Shooting fast and practicing to get faster has and will always be part of the sport. If you are testing skill- ramping should not be part of the game. People hone the skill to shoot fast and should not be penalized by facing a player with a computer aimed at them.

[M98Punk]

So I'm guilty of a bad analogy...I must say that this thread have really gotten me thinking, I think I've broken down why I am against ramping, it just seems that cheaters have won...all the pencil dicks sitting in there basement installing new boards so they can fire faster then there skill (or lack there of) will allow so they have a advantage in tourny play, instead of punishing them we are saying well it's too hard to regulate this so I'm just gonna let everyone else do it as well.

[tae]

I dont have the time right now so I may be repeating statements already made. :p

My personal opinion is that you can shoot as fast as you want. It make no difference if you cant aim. I can compare it to a fist fight. You can throw as many punches as you want. If you cant hit anything then what will it do? Faster rates of fire allow for more guesses to hit the person moving incorrectly. You cant run across a stream of paint going 280 fps with 16bps between you and where your going. If they have one thing and you have another, use strategy. ;)

[M98Punk]

guilty of taking things out of context but you can see where Glenn Palmer stands on the issue...


"ROF may be driving the industry but I believe it is killing the game and I won't be a part of that.

Any gun that PPS offers requires that the shooter actively participates in and be conciously responsible for evey ball that leaves the barrel. ANYTHING else, is not SEMI-auto.
When the insurance companies figure that out, much is going to change anyway."

[Lohman446]

guilty of taking things out of context but you can see where Glenn Palmer stands on the issue...


"ROF may be driving the industry but I believe it is killing the game and I won't be a part of that.

Any gun that PPS offers requires that the shooter actively participates in and be conciously responsible for evey ball that leaves the barrel. ANYTHING else, is not SEMI-auto.
When the insurance companies figure that out, much is going to change anyway."

The insurance companies already know. You know the scarey thing is - PSP does to. Read there rules closely, show me where it says ramping is allowed. Don't bother, they never do. The simply state the first three must be semi and the marker must never exceed 15BPS. Nowhere do they state that ramping is legal. Who do you think that leaves in a bind? Hint - its not PSP, its the player

[M98Punk]

On a side note I wasn't using that to boost my argument...I don't really have a argument anymore I just thougt it would be cool add what Glenn thinks about it.

Now what your saying is that PSP is leaving our safety up to the good conscience of other paintball players :shooting: .... We're Doomed! :tard:

[Lohman446]

On a side note I wasn't using that to boost my argument...I don't really have a argument anymore I just thougt it would be cool add what Glenn thinks about it.

Now what your saying is that PSP is leaving our safety up to the good conscience of other paintball players :shooting: .... We're Doomed! :tard:

I'm saying that the PSP, in the event of a civil suit (or criminal issue), would try to push the liability towards the player using ramping

[M98Punk]

Are my jokes really that bad that no one gets them? :confused:

[nippinout]

Cheating is becoming a skillset of recreational paintball. It is disgusting. The last two times that I have played (at two different commercial fields), every player with a semi that was capable of enhanced firing modes was using them. Any idiot can hold a trigger back.

They weren't even being discrete about it. They would show off their 'mad skillz' in terms of dollars/second coming out of the barrel. They would do the same before each game. Even after the owner told us semi-only, they kept using them.

This is what paintball skills have devolved into: Get away with as much as you can.

For me, the next big thing in paintball? Private games.

Then, the only proper skillset required would be trash-talking amongst friends. No BS cheaters. No whiners. No idiot refs/owners that cannot handle their customers.