Ramping strategically misused and its downsides

[Lohman446]

Edit: Before I get called on it. My view on ramping is this - I would gladly use ramping if I did not beleive that violation of ASTM standards put me in areas of criminal and civil negligence that I deem unacceptable. I do not beleive there is a moral problem with it being used within the rules of the game. I just will not accept the legal risks. [/Edit]

I saw a player who beleives he is "gods gift to paintball" because he has a ramping (or bouncing, or whatever you want to call it) Angel that can put out a lot of paint. He is a better player than most people give him credit for, but not near the player he beleives himself to be. Regardless we were playing Sunday and I saw the worst use of ramping ever.

They had pushed hard, and brought it to a 4 on 3 game that gave them a comfort zone to push. A couple lucky shots and we made it 3 to 2. The kid with the ramping Angel was in the left snake at the fifty, there was another player on the right tape behind two bunkers behind the fifty. We had players across the back standups, I was in the right stand up and we had a player in the center and left stand up.

I decided I had to move up the field, and communicated accordingly across the field through relay calls so the other team did not hear them. Now, in theory our opponents had to simply stay crossed and divide the field. Our back right player would poke out and fire two balls down the right tape. The guy with the Angel would respond with 30 or so. In the time he fired those balls I would bump up, hidden from him. I was able to time them by the firing, the string of paint, and ramping - as the balls stopped I would bunker down and keep quiet.

I would argue that his ramping encouraged him to shoot strings, even though he had no chance of shooting. His ramping allowed us to know where he was on the field, and for the most part where he was looking.

My question is not of the advantages of ramping in a skilled players hands but the disadvantages it can cause to the player who uses it in an unskilled manner.

[Resurection]

simply put: I have yet to see a situation where more than 5-7 balls at a time are any more effective than 30.

I know the 'shock' factor of being behind a bunker being rained on, but still. A skilled and level-headed player would always use the situation you described as a way to overcome the overconfident ramping player.

[TheTramp]

I see what you're saying Lohman but I think he would have rattled off a long string even if he didn't have ramping. Perhaps a little slower and perhaps a little shorter but I'd bet you could have used it the same way. It sounds like he's just the sort of player that does that. There are a lot of them.

I'm not a big fan of ramping but I think this time it wasn't that much of a factor.

[68magOwner]

worst 2 ramping markers i have ever seen were- an X-teammates angel (we eneded up cutting him because he just cheates way to much) that thing would be pushing 25+ bps at any given instance. I guess his halo was really fast, becaue i have shot/seen/experienced many ramping markers, and this thing was just exceptionally fast. I remember playing in a bunker behind him one game, and he just starts shooting (i was out shooting at the same time) and when i saw the ammount of paint just spewing from his barrel (not as in breaks, just, tons of balls) i was just like......i dunno, i just paused for a second like......theres no way. (we confronted him and had that fixed after that game, even if the reffs wernt gonna stop it, we wernt gonna let our teammate be doing that.

And the other, was a ramping DM5 with the bradys "boost" hopper. I wasnt even aware the kid was ramping going into the first game with him, then once we started playing, he ended up in my mirror at our own 30's. I heard him start ripping and was just like.... :wow: he was shooting across the field at a teammate at our left 30, and i could just see the line of paint going across the field even from my odd perspective. After the game, the kid made no effort to deny he was ramping (not that anyone didnt know). This marker wasnt as fast as the x-teammates angel just because, trixes of course have slower cycle speeds. But, still jaw droppingly fast.

Both of the formentioned players, i have seen shoot people 30+ times, shooting opponents enough to cause them to collapse and curl up into the fetal position. I believe that these are the only 2 examples of ramping that have generally been a hazard on the field that i have ever seen. Generally, even if people are ramping, theyre not really dangerous about it, and dont intentionally overshoot people to extremes. And, now with psp ramp shooting rules in place, it has preety much put a stop to all the super speed dangerous ramping. I think that with PSP ramp, players really arnt being overshot any worse than when playing semi (the one exception being when people are bunkered, because, you now pull the trigger 3 times at them, and your gonna hit em 9 times).

I cant really say i have ever seen ramping be a disadvantage to any players (except for players who cant shoot while reloading, even with ramping, those kids are just bad). But, i dont necessarily see it as a tremendous advantage for some either.

[Miscue]

I like it when people shoot a lot... it's easier to tell where they are and what they are doing.

[hitech]

The paint pounding my bunker helps me identify what direction the opposing is shooting at me from. Also, they have to reload more often.

Having a ramping marker probably does get some people to shoot to long to their disadvantage. It also can give them an advantage (more shoots at the target before it "disappears"). In the end, it probably evens out with regards to game play.

I'm sure it contributes greatly to overshooting and heightened tensions on the field.


:cheers:

[wimag]

Edit: Before I get called on it. My view on ramping is this - I would gladly use ramping if I did not beleive that violation of ASTM standards put me in areas of criminal and civil negligence that I deem unacceptable. I do not beleive there is a moral problem with it being used within the rules of the game. I just will not accept the legal risks. [/Edit]


what legal risks you speak of ? what ASTM standard would you be violating ?

[Lohman446]

what legal risks you speak of ? what ASTM standard would you be violating ?

ASTM standards (industry accepted safety standards) expressly forbid enhanced triggers, very much one shot one pull. I beleive (arguably) that should the unfortunate happen there are severe criminal issues. I also beleive (I doubt anyone would argue here) that the civil issues are obvious.

[quik]

I guess that yeah, in some cases, ramping can be a bad thing. But unfortunately, it seems like the good outweighs the bad, to most people anyways. I know usually, you should know where all the other teams players are, so giving up where your 'hidden' shouldnt matter, but I know the field your talking about, and it has many bunkers, so it could have worked to his advantage to turn that ramp off.

PS, who's the god of paintball :P?

[Lohman446]

I guess that yeah, in some cases, ramping can be a bad thing. But unfortunately, it seems like the good outweighs the bad, to most people anyways. I know usually, you should know where all the other teams players are, so giving up where your 'hidden' shouldnt matter, but I know the field your talking about, and it has many bunkers, so it could have worked to his advantage to turn that ramp off.

PS, who's the god of paintball :P?

Truman thinks he is, and occassionally we have to remind him he's not. Course.. when my desire to bunker him throws off how I play... LOL

[Emag2005]

I don't understand how peopel can ramp but i can not use hybrid mode (tournament). I think ramping is more deadly then hybrid. Yah i personally think ramping takes away from the game little bit.

[Maggot6]

I thought that ramping was a pretty good idea when mommy buys them the paint, for the exact reason you listed (lohmans origonal post) Whenever they are in their tunnel vision, you can practically walk around sometimes without them noticing.

[phantomhitman]

And before I begin, I want to state that I hate ramping. I am a tourney player, and its unfortunate that tourneys have turned to ramping for whatever reason you want to believe. I think shooting fast is still a skill that few have.

With every story posted here it seems to either be rec play or a select few advanced players using ramping, correct me if im wrong. Now, if that is true why the hell are they ramping to begin with? In each story people seem to be suprised some is ramping, some people seem to ramp while others dont, some ramping is being compared to bouncing, so all of the fact are not there.

If one guy is ramping and other are not, why not ask the guy to stop ramping? A few posts point it out like ramping is being sneaky, but if someone is ramping they know it and you know it, its not like having extra bounce or a few shots added. Ramping is not so much cheating as it is a new game format. If you dont like stay away from it, and I am sure everyone here is brave enough to tell someone to take their ramping markers elsewhere if they dont want to play against them. Do not take your local hotheaded tourney guy and say he is like all tourney players who cheat, wipe, bounce, ramp, etc. Every field has at least one idiot, young or old. I have nothing against woodsballers just because some guys flip on full auto switches, up their velocity, and a few other smaller things that some have a tendacy to do. Ramping is not cheating in the tourney world, but if you think it is cheating just nicely ask the guy to turn it off or ask him to leave the game. I am sure everyone else on the field, as well as the owner, will agree with you.

[cdacda13]

May I ask what kind of Angel it was?
I know that WDPs lastest software only has PSP ramping. That was the first time ramping was put on a WDP marker using the stock board.

That being said, TR setting on an angel is sort of like bounce. I was able to get on angel up to 21 BPS on semi auto with TR set at 22. (In my back yard not on a field.)

[wimag]

ASTM standards (industry accepted safety standards) expressly forbid enhanced triggers, very much one shot one pull. I beleive (arguably) that should the unfortunate happen there are severe criminal issues. I also beleive (I doubt anyone would argue here) that the civil issues are obvious.

ah i see. which ASTM standard reference number do you have. I am curious to read this. The ones i normally dealt with and yes i know there are hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands of ASTM specs were for the plating industry.

[Lohman446]

6.5.4 All paintball markers shall only operate in semi-automatic or pump mode and may not operate in other discharge modes such as burst, enhanced trigger or fullyautomatic
discharge mode.

There it is

[phantomhitman]

can you post a link to this page? I looked up ever single paintball realted article they had, but they wanted $8 each from to download the pdf. I just want to read the standards, and when they were made

[Lohman446]

can you post a link to this page? I looked up ever single paintball realted article they had, but they wanted $8 each from to download the pdf. I just want to read the standards, and when they were made

I cannot distribute the material, it is part of the purchase agreement. Unfortunately they must be purchased to have. There are restrictions on siting them, etc.

[phantomhitman]

you mean you cannot even read safety rules?! isnt that kind of hypocritical? oh well.......i kind of hate astm now. Do me a favor and tell me when those rules were established, not when they were last updated.

[Lohman446]

you mean you cannot even read safety rules?! isnt that kind of hypocritical? oh well.......i kind of hate astm now. Do me a favor and tell me when those rules were established, not when they were last updated.


"This standard is issued under the fixed designation F 2272; the number immediately following the designation indicates the year of original adoption or, in the case of revision, the year of last revision. A number in parentheses indicates the year of last reapproval. A
superscript epsilon (e) indicates an editorial change since the last revision or reapproval."

Now, I know that does not answer your question, TK could tell you when the industry decided to pay the ASTM to set up the safety standards...

[phantomhitman]

thanks for the info, but i still cannot read it. i worked too long today i think, brain hurts, go to bed now

[TheTramp]

It is pretty funny that you have to pay to read something designed to enhance saftey.

[wimag]

Thanks for the info Lohman. I will grab it and check it out.

I was always under the impression that ASTM specs were more so guidelines that industry has collectively agreed upon. For example ASTM B695 for mech plating was a guideline of methods to adhere zinc to steel this referenced ASTM B201 for corrosion testing. Which basically provided a gideline of how long an item should withstand an accelerated salt corrosion test when tested in accordance to ASTM B117 to white and red rust.
No where in the specs did it reference legality issues.
Tht legality could come from the company certifying an item that it could withstand a determined amount of corrosion resistance but actually fails miserably. Something along the affects of recalls of seat belt mounts in vehicles.

Not saying your orignal post in wrong but i fail to see how an individual shooting a ramping marker violates anything to do with ASTM standards. The mask may fail per their industry accpeted level but unless done malicously i dont see how it would bring legal action to the shooter. If anything it would be the manufacturer of said marker or chip

[Lohman446]

The ASTM in itself does not have the authority to enforce. However, ignoring industry accepted safety standards that resulted in severe bodily harm may be criminally negligent. I know you would have a civil liability issue. So no, they do not have the power to enforce, but after an against a DA (not the ASTM) may use violation of ASTM safety standards, especially in the absence of any other scientifically tested standards, as negligent. To what level is up for debate. You may have the legal defense idea in that you, as an individual are not responsible to know or follow ASTM standards in most circumstances, the manufacturer may be more responsible to them but it is not required. Think of the ASTM as a big shield against liability - using it and adhering to there standards is helpful, perhaps not fool proof. Ignoring them, especially as a manufacturer, may be exposing yourself to risk.

[andreb]

If everysingle player is using a ramping gun it wont be that easy to spot him (hear him) on the field or at least you won't be able to single him out.