How many Devil Mags?

[11 Bravo]

Does anyone know how many Devil Mags have been produced since they began. I am wondering how many are out there on the fields. Also when did they start producing them?
And before you bring it up I didnt want to clog up the official Devil Mag thread with a trivial question.

[Automaggot68]

Does anyone know how many Devil Mags have been produced since they began. I am wondering how many are out there on the fields. Also when did they start producing them?
And before you bring it up I didnt want to clog up the official Devil Mag thread with a trivial question.

Depends on who yoou ask.
How many were paid for, or how many were made?

[Maggot6]

I think he means how many are in the customers hands...

[Automaggot68]

I think he means how many are in the customers hands...

I know.
I was poking at the fact that Not alot of people have theirs yet.

[SCpoloRicker]

boo, maggot

I think that the number is somewhere around 12-15. There are several in Europe, and I think some are non-AOers. A good place to check would be

I have a full vert frame model.Devils Den (http://www.devilsden.tv) would be a good place to look. He has a forum as well, you may want to ask there.

[68magOwner]

wow, only 12 or 13 out there? I saw one at cfoa (at a booth) messed with it, nothing special imo, although i didnt shoot it.

[11 Bravo]

wow, only 12 or 13 out there? I saw one at cfoa (at a booth) messed with it, nothing special imo, although i didnt shoot it.

Well shooting it is what its all about. The mod is more for function than cosmetics.
You cant judge how well a gun shoots by looking at it.

[11 Bravo]

boo, maggot



I have a full vert frame model.Devils Den (http://www.devilsden.tv) would be a good place to look. He has a forum as well, you may want to ask there.

Is it what you expected? Is it as good as advertised?

[Chronobreak]

last i heard 4-5 vert frames are out

and....5-10 upd hyperframes...

#'s could be off

[68magOwner]

Well shooting it is what its all about. The mod is more for function than cosmetics.
You cant judge how well a gun shoots by looking at it.

im talking about overall feel, didnt just look at it, picked up/messed with

[nt2004]

last i heard 4-5 vert frames are out


out of what 36-48 that were supposed to be made in batch's 1 and 2, over the span of about a year? Pretty sad if you ask me.

[SCpoloRicker]

*sigh*

As other owners have said, its a Pred II driven Mag... it doesn't shoot an extra 20 feet, it doesn't add 10 bps (unless you us the right mode), its just... a Pred II mag with a vert frame.

It does everything it should.

Ah, forget it.

[Lohman446]

Here Ricker.. I seached my post that tried to explain it once


I liked my Devilmag, however between ordering it and getting it I made a few decisions regarding firing modes, a few conversations with a lawyer and lets just say that I feel for now true semi (or very very close to it, I understand there may be some accidental bounce) is the safest thing for me based on a criminal liability issue.

That being said I did not use the predator board to its full advantage. I found the Devilmag basically intechangeable with my Proto Matrix. Both shot faster than I could pull the trigger, both had very good eye systems, and both were very very nice markers and could compete with anything on the field.

I had some issues come up where I needed cash (house was broken into) and could simply get more out of the DevilMag than the Proto. So I sold the D-mag.

I think people may have expected more out of them than it could deliver. It met all advertised claims (in my opinion). It is a super marker out there, it has insane firing modes / ramping /etc that work wonderfully well if you are willing to use them. It has a mystic and gets looks at the field. That being said it does not make you the next great player, it does not improve your game for you. The balls do not suddenly become laser guided... The Devilmag is a high end marker, and competes with todays "super markers" It is as good as they are overall and preference is really a matter of opinion when comparing it to the "best" markers out there. No more... no less...


Of course most people do not want to hear it who have them on order or who own them...

[SCpoloRicker]

OMG it shoots way way faster than my Pred II Angel!1

[Lohman446]

OMG it shoots way way faster than my Pred II Angel!1


And soo much more accurate than my Matrix. And it outdistances my 'Cocker.

//Doesn't own a 'cocker

[Caffiend]

And soo much more accurate than my Matrix. And it outdistances my 'Cocker.

//Doesn't own a 'cocker

and it's more efficient than my phantom :D

[Vex]

and it's more efficient than my phantom :D
...and it's better looking than my Stingray II!

[phantomhitman]

best bet is to ask chris, otherwise ignore this whole thread except for a few posts. people are pissed off at chris for not delivering on time, that is between them. just because he doesnt delivery on time does not mean the guns are worthless and crappy. the gun feels like any mag out there, and looks like any mag out there, difference is it does not shoot like any mag out there. you have to test one out before you slam it, after that feel free to.

[Lohman446]

best bet is to ask chris, otherwise ignore this whole thread except for a few posts. people are pissed off at chris for not delivering on time, that is between them. just because he doesnt delivery on time does not mean the guns are worthless and crappy. the gun feels like any mag out there, and looks like any mag out there, difference is it does not shoot like any mag out there. you have to test one out before you slam it, after that feel free to.


Who exactly slammed the Devilmag?

[phantomhitman]

Who exactly slammed the Devilmag?

did i say anyone slammed it? i told him to give one a chance before he slammed it, stop getting all ancy nancy

[Lohman446]

did i say anyone slammed it? i told him to give one a chance before he slammed it, stop getting all ancy nancy

Read your post again and tell me I was wrong in inferring that you were getting hostile at those that spoke negatively - or not positively super hype - about it. You may not have meant it, but that is how your post came across. To me at least, then again, sometimes I am way wrong too.

[11 Bravo]

If you thought I was getting ready to slam the DM, I assure you I wasnt. I started this thread for what the title says. I wanted to know how many were out there actually being used.

[Lohman446]

My guess - 3 vertical frames and a dozen total.

[phantomhitman]

Read your post again and tell me I was wrong in inferring that you were getting hostile at those that spoke negatively - or not positively super hype - about it. You may not have meant it, but that is how your post came across. To me at least, then again, sometimes I am way wrong too.

you need more sleep, you are too cranky in the morning. i can care less what people think about any gun, if this was about a cocker i would have said the same thing. you can think i am a devilmag fanboy all you want to, its not hard to read in between the lines.

and yes, i do like my vert frame devilmag. i never once stated that in any devilmag bashing threads because i am one of the few who do have them. hopefully chris will get the rest out whenever, until then sorry.

[Lohman446]

you need more sleep, you are too cranky in the morning. i can care less what people think about any gun, if this was about a cocker i would have said the same thing. you can think i am a devilmag fanboy all you want to, its not hard to read in between the lines.

and yes, i do like my vert frame devilmag. i never once stated that in any devilmag bashing threads because i am one of the few who do have them. hopefully chris will get the rest out whenever, until then sorry.


I had mine too... it was, to me, exactly what I said it was in the post above :cheers:

[SCpoloRicker]

Calm down ya morans. ;)

/off my lawn and all

[phantomhitman]

ill still snipe you all with my cocker and 20 inch carbon fiber rifled flatline barrel

[Lohman446]

ill still snipe you all with my cocker and 20 inch carbon fiber rifled flatline barrel

Is it low pressure? :D

[GT]

a few conversations with a lawyer and lets just say that I feel for now true semi (or very very close to it, I understand there may be some accidental bounce) is the safest thing for me based on a criminal liability issue.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[SCpoloRicker]

I personally disagree with Lohman on his personal method of avoiding liability. But, the issues he is referring to will, IMnsHO, eventually result in a large lawsuit.

Against a manufacturer or field operator seems more likely, but the issue will come to a head.

/not trying to threadjack

[Lohman446]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


You may disagree but I think I have a reasonable argument to support my position - and more to the point an overly cautious lawyer to advise me. I do understand it is a very cautious position, but you also have to realize, under strict interpertation of Michigan law, a paintball marker is most definetly a firearm.

http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167377

[GT]

You may disagree but I think I have a reasonable argument to support my position - and more to the point an overly cautious lawyer to advise me. I do understand it is a very cautious position, but you also have to realize,

http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167377


I know we have had this dicussion before.


under strict interpertation of Michigan law, a paintball marker is most definetly a firearm.

If that were true and someone was hurt in an incident it wouldnt matter what fire mode you had on your super e blaster 6000, or a pump.


more to the point an overly cautious lawyer to advise me


My advice? Get better counsel. Paintball is not a crime. If someone were hurt due to your negligence, which is dam hard to prove unless you tied the guy down and shot a case into is face, it would be difficult for them to attach any civil penelties to your person. Typically a crime that results in the death of another, durring the course and scope of the crime, can attach some kind of negligent manslauder, or the likes in your state. This is the typical charge if underage or DWI's kill a family on the way to church. A case I heard recently; a crack smoker set a house on fire, fire dept. responded and one fireman was killed. They nailed the guy for manslaughter. Crime results in death of another, results in criminal liability.



IMnsHO, eventually result in a large lawsuit.


Agreed but there is a huge difference bewteen Civil and Criminal Liability. I tried explaining the difference in the previous thread.


Start a new legal thread Lo, would be intresting to see if there is any case law at all that establishes a presdence...

[Lohman446]

I do agree that civil liability the only thing that a non-ASTM acceptable mode would do is increase the verdict against you, civilly your screwed if something happens in paintball, mostly because our civil legal system sucks.

And the criminal issue is a long stretch - I understand that. That being said, even if the risk is minimal, its a risk I feel I should do everything I can to make even more minimal. Could I be wrong here? I hope in a way I am. I'm not willing to take that chance. Criminal negligence need not be an act in itself, it need be just extreme negligence - and I agree the stretch is there and long. I'm just risk adverse in this area I guess.

[11 Bravo]

What are you a celebrity or something? Why are you always going on about liability? People get shot up all the time and dont go to court over it. Why would they go after you.

[Lohman446]

What are you a celebrity or something? Why are you always going on about liability? People get shot up all the time and dont go to court over it. Why would they go after you.

Risk avoidance. I'm not talking the all the time shot up - I'm talking the time, that I beleive is inevitable, when someone is seriously hurt or killed playing. Its a risk inherent of the game. I accept that risk everytime I go play, as do many other people, I think its an obvious risk. However, if someone is injured and decides to, you do not have much defense in civil court, especially with a jury. I make the leap that the risk of criminal liability is there as well, others disagree with me there - it is probably a greater leap than need be taken.

[11 Bravo]

Do you drive around in a rubber car? Cause you have a better chance of getting sued over what happens with your car than you do with what happens when you play paintball.

[Lohman446]

Do you drive around in a rubber car? Cause you have a better chance of getting sued over what happens with your car than you do with what happens when you play paintball.

Not for criminal issues assuming I am following applicable laws and my car (to my knowledge) meets current safety standards. I am not trying to claim the risk is high, I play paintball, I accept the risk. However, I have done what I feel is necessary to minimize the risk. Might it be too much? Sure, for some people, but I also do not feel that ramping is that great of a help in playing. I have taken the steps I feel necessary. Might I be considering consequences and situations that are not likely? Sure, but it does not diminish my love of the game at all.

The thread I sited earlier explains my reasoning a little better.

[KRAKMT]

I have been waiting for the lawsuit that bankrupts a company. I think the argument is easily made that a manufacturor that creates a product in violation of the safety standards knowingly creates an unreasonable risk of injury- keep in mind I meerly have to convince 12 inexperienced people. I will sue the player(because I have to) the field, the seller, the manufaturor and the chip manufacturor. Give me one promising college student that has been accepted to medical school who looses an eye and you will see a very large verdict.
As to the comment that the civil jury system sucks. Why? Because people are willing to hold their breath until something actually happens before they are willing to change and then they ***** about the system. That is ignorant propaganda!
K

[Lohman446]

As to the comment that the civil jury system sucks. Why? Because people are willing to hold their breath until something actually happens before they are willing to change and then they ***** about the system. That is ignorant propaganda!
K

Want the sound bite answer - our civil jury system today is more like winning the lottery than it is about actual justice. I have a problem with jury awards that exceed "reason" and are often enough given. Punitive damage, at one time reserved for only the worst of offenses, has been replaced with pain and suffering awards that seem to have little basis in the reality of hte pain and suffering and more in regards to the defendants income from the action - what punitive awards where reserved for and there application limited.

No... its not ignorant propaganda, while there are neat sound bites that help my side of the argument there is a reasonable argument as well.

[phantomhitman]

I think you can throw your astm standards out of the window when you hurt someone on a field. Like stated before, if you shot them with a ramping dm5 or one ball with a pump its not going to matter. I also believe the astm is out of date with what is going on in todays paintball games (and yes i know they update them almost every year). I highly doubt the astm people, or the crew they send out to test paintball standards are in the current scene of paintball or do years of research before posting their findings (and yes i know every once in a while they talk to the current scene players/ownders). I do not know who they contract to do their work, and I refuse to pay for safety findings, so I will be ignorant forever I guess.

[SCpoloRicker]

PSA

Thread has been horrifically derailed.

/PSA

[Lohman446]

Yeh, we should have to include our guess to the first question of the thread in our responses

// Mine was twelve
/// Has no clue what PSA stands for
//// What is the etiquette for using these things anyways Ricker?

[KRAKMT]

So 12 people that here ALL the evidence and not just the media selected evidence are unreasonable. Or is it that they somehow are not a cross selection of the same society we live in. People here the "sound bites" and then decide what is reasonable based on there own assumptions not on the evidence. The same people who complain are the same people thast find any reason to get out of jury duty are the same people that complain about the courts. Its all bunk!
Where is the reasonable part of the argument ignorant people that here a snipit of facts that determine reasonable based on there own biases or 12 people that here weeks of facts that must assess credibility. How many of the facts do you actually know about the famous McDonalds case versus the actual facts.




Want the sound bite answer - our civil jury system today is more like winning the lottery than it is about actual justice. I have a problem with jury awards that exceed "reason" and are often enough given. Punitive damage, at one time reserved for only the worst of offenses, has been replaced with pain and suffering awards that seem to have little basis in the reality of hte pain and suffering and more in regards to the defendants income from the action - what punitive awards where reserved for and there application limited.


As for ASTM standards- This might be a good defense

I think you can throw your astm standards out of the window when you hurt someone on a field. Like stated before, if you shot them with a ramping dm5 or one ball with a pump its not going to matter. I also believe the astm is out of date with what is going on in todays paintball games (and yes i know they update them almost every year). I highly doubt the astm people, or the crew they send out to test paintball standards are in the current scene of paintball or do years of research before posting their findings (and yes i know every once in a while they talk to the current scene players/ownders).

But I think 12 reasonable people will look to the ASTM standards versus players to determine safety. Thats what a trial is for.


I hope there are more than 3 verticle frame/Devilmags I would hope at least 20? I was once going to be one but alas I just have a dallara at GA Devils waiting for a decision.



//Yes Yes it is!

No... its not ignorant propaganda, while there are neat sound bites that help my side of the argument there is a reasonable argument as well

[Lohman446]

So 12 people that here ALL the evidence and not just the media selected evidence are unreasonable. Or is it that they somehow are not a cross selection of the same society we live in. People here the "sound bites" and then decide what is reasonable based on there own assumptions not on the evidence. The same people who complain are the same people thast find any reason to get out of jury duty are the same people that complain about the courts. Its all bunk!
Where is the reasonable part of the argument ignorant people that here a snipit of facts that determine reasonable based on there own biases or 12 people that here weeks of facts that must assess credibility. How many of the facts do you actually know about the famous McDonalds case versus the actual facts.

I was thinking more in the lines of the 6 billion dollar verdict award agaisnt GM, and not the McDonalds argument. However, in both cases "pain and suffering" awards were actually punitive awards that should nto have been useable. Some people who disagree with you do so from the point of reasonable logic. If you cannot understand that simple fact I can direct you to a former forum member who doesn't seem to get it either. You want to assume me to be ignorant you can, but instally attacking someone without understanding there arguments is a very poor form of debate. Disagree with me, thats fine, but don't come on here and assume my position is based on ignorance, its not.

// you can't use the /// to respond to a quote.. I don't think
/// Still guessing 12, might be wrong

[11 Bravo]

Soooo, How many Devil mags did we come up with? :rolleyes:

[KRAKMT]

first your statement is not true. The jury awarded $160,000 for compensatory damages. But because McDonalds was guilty of "willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct" punitive damages were also applied. The jury set the award at $2.7 million.



I was thinking more in the lines of the 6 billion dollar verdict award agaisnt GM, and not the McDonalds argument. However, in both cases "pain and suffering" awards were actually punitive awards that should nto have been useable.

HUH?
I can direct you to a former forum member who doesn't seem to get it either.

So how was pain and suffering used as punitive- actually punitive was used as punitive but my bad I should have let you say why the "civil legal system sucks.


You want to assume me to be ignorant you can, but instally attacking someone without understanding there arguments is a very poor form of debate. Disagree with me, thats fine, but don't come on here and assume my position is based on ignorance, its not.

// must be able to respond to the original question.
/// if you repeat yourself.
//// Classicmagger has a verticle forsale in the classifieds.



// you can't use the /// to respond to a quote.. I don't think
/// Still guessing 12, might be wrong[/QUOTE]

[Chronobreak]

Soooo, How many Devil mags did we come up with? :rolleyes:

ga said a while abck that he does/will tke pics and post them as their done soo looking at the site

http://devilsden.tv/DM-pics.htm


how many do you count?

looks like 4-5 90$ frames, and..2 hyperframesd ups. however im sure theyr are atleast 5-7 hyperframes pred mags out....atleas ti hope so..


my luck goes to those still waiting.

[Chronobreak]

stop hijacking guys, answer the question and let this DM post die once and for all..


lohman is plenty of toher post about the subject that can be searched and ressurected.

[Lohman446]

first your statement is not true. The jury awarded $160,000 for compensatory damages. But because McDonalds was guilty of "willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct" punitive damages were also applied. The jury set the award at $2.7 million.


The Mcdonalds one is an often misused example of a failure of our civil system. Its actually pretty well conceived, considering the punitive number came from XX of days of there profit from the coffee in question and there had been issues in the past relating to temperature. But you cannot tell me there are not abuses of our legal system every day that result in improperly awarded verdicts - my bad on the pain and suffering awards in both cases.

// Still say 12 Devilmags is my guess
/// And your right, Im done with the threadjack... sorry to those it annoyed

[phantomhitman]

lol, ill take a #4 and super size it.

i think there are at least eleventeen devilmags out there, i could be wrong. you will not get an accurate number unless chris posts, so there is no need to ask anymore.

[11 Bravo]

Phantom,
I was being sarcastic when I asked again. Did you notice the :rolleyes: But thanks for answering anyways.

Oh and Lohman you are arguing with a lawyer, so good luck.

[phantomhitman]

Phantom,
I was being sarcastic when I asked again. Did you notice the :rolleyes: But thanks for answering anyways.

Oh and Lohman you are arguing with a lawyer, so good luck.

i told you eleventeen, stop spamming this thread :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

Phantom,
I was being sarcastic when I asked again. Did you notice the :rolleyes: But thanks for answering anyways.

Oh and Lohman you are arguing with a lawyer, so good luck.

Attorneys can be part of one of the greatest professions in America, defending rights, protecting individuals.

They can also be part of the worst profession in America, putting there wealth before justice and what is right. Face it, it goes both ways in many many professions.

As to my opinion, I hold it, I find it to be a reasonable logical opinion, regardless of where he stands on it. Might I take part of his argument to be reasonable and follow a train of logic. Sure, I just disagree with the conclusion. One can do that, few things in life are one sided.

[KRAKMT]

One can do that, few things in life are one sided.
Well put and the exception I take is with the "civil jury system sucks". It may have flaws and sometimes it may look broken but it is the best in the world and was so important a knife was put to a kings throat some 900 years ago for the right that you now say sucks.



As to professions I must say telemarketer appears lower on my list at least people seek out attorneys.

[Lohman446]

Well put and the exception I take is with the "civil jury system sucks". It may have flaws and sometimes it may look broken but it is the best in the world and was so important a knife was put to a kings throat some 900 years ago for the right that you now say sucks.



As to professions I must say telemarketer appears lower on my list at least people seek out attorneys.

It is not the right I have an issue with, or even the system I guess. It is the abuse of the system that some people put it through. It seems often one is measuring how well they can make the system work, not in justice, but in money.

My attorney is one of the most valuable people to me - in that he figths for my childs rights against her :cuss: mother :D .

And yeh, prfoessional* telemarketers do not have a redeeming side that I am aware of.

*not to include the occassional volunteer who is doing it for a good cause

[SCpoloRicker]

I am a rocket scientist, have 42 million in the bank, and am currently dating (ok, just sleeping with) your girlfriend.

I also have a huge peener.

/wait, what?

[phantomhitman]

I am a rocket scientist, have 42 million in the bank, and am currently dating (ok, just sleeping with) your girlfriend.

I also have a huge peener.

/wait, what?

sc wins this round.....ill get you next time.........i would have won if it wasnt for those meddling kids....and that dog

[GT]

I am a rocket scientist, have 42 million in the bank, and am currently dating (ok, just sleeping with) your girlfriend.

I also have a huge peener.

/wait, what?


thanks for taking this OT. You should be banned. :cry:

[sniper1rfa]

you guys are lucky im not a mod.

STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!
STOP HIJACKING!!!!


I want to know the answer to this.

[phantomhitman]

YOU WILL NOT FIND THE ANSWER, ONLY CHRIS KNOWS


feel better now?

[SCpoloRicker]

thanks for taking this OT. You should be banned. :cry:


Ah, you see. By simply not breaking the rules one can avoid such unpleasantries.


Also,




PSA

Thread has been horrifically derailed.

/PSA

I certainly didn't start the legality debate again. ;)

edit: oohh, page 3 snypah!1

[Automaggot68]

Ah, you see. By simply not breaking the rules one can avoid such unpleasantries.


Also,



I certainly didn't start the legality debate again. ;)

edit: oohh, page 3 snypah!1


OH SNAP.


........I wonder when Chris is going to post?

[SCpoloRicker]

........I wonder when Chris is going to post?

I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't... he's gotta be getting frustrated with all this.

/*extends beer* No harshness, GT

[11 Bravo]

And if he doesnt get things together he's going to ruin a good thing. If he hasnt already.

[TheTramp]

........I wonder when Chris is going to post?


Right nnnnnoooo........never!

[Lohman446]

Now.. I sympathize with those who are waiting. I do not mean the following comment to tell you that you are wrong in being upset, or that you should feel any other way.

However, if you were Chris and a project you had put together had gone EXTREMELY badly, many of the things outside of your control and beyond what you could have possibly expected, and the customer's had become hostile. Now you have already invested the money you had gotten from customer's into the project, so you cannot simply refund it, you do not have the capital available to do so. Customer's have already threatened legal action. The question is - would you post on a public board?

I empathize with you guys, I understand what you are going through. You are not wrong in feeling how you do, at least in my mind, or being frustrated. I can only assure you, from my dealings wih Chris and communcation with him, that I beleive Chris did not set out to take your money and run, or to sit on this project this long. I beleive he is trying to get this done for you.

[nt2004]

My bet is chris ran out of money and is now just keeping his customers busy with bs time estimates, or he is trying to avoid them all together. Thats why I sold my place in line, I didnt feel like waiting for something that would never come.

[SCpoloRicker]

My bet is chris ran out of money and is now just keeping his customers busy with bs time estimates, or he is trying to avoid them all together. Thats why I sold my place in line, I didnt feel like waiting for something that would never come.

You're entitled to your opinion. I don't recall you ever being petulant about the process. :)

I just see a lot of bashing going on, and step in to it because I have been through it.

[nt2004]

I don't recall you ever being petulant about the process.

Oh I was, but just in private. Waiting can be very frustrating, especially when you payed 450+ for an item and you know you can never get that money back. I'm still pretty bitter about the whole ordeal, but I guess you live and you learn when it comes to this sort of stuff