DevilMag Frame Vs Logic Frame ?

[GoblinGreen]

I currently have a ULE RT,LVL 10, Omega Rail, ULT. (do have stock on/off as well)

I sent a mail off to Devilsden and he has confirmed that the devilframe will fit on the omega rail, and from what Ive read about the Logic frame it should fit straight on as well. My issue is the decision of which one?

To me it seems like the Logic Frame will be more beneficial but I just cant decide. Please help me make up my mind. I have no need to install eyes, If my Emag can run perfectly without them I dont see why I need them with these frames. Level 10 does the trick for me.

Both frames are $450 so whats better in your opinions for my setup?

[quik]

You'll probably get Logics a lot sooner.

[mandatory]

depends on how long you like to wait. I dont know about the logic frames turnaround time but I can tell you that I have been waiting since March 2nd (7 months) to get my devilmag and As of now I have no Idea when it will be done. I have gotten no new info from chris(devil frame) since early June, and quite frankly have never felt so robbed and taken advantage of. I am definatly just seen as a number in line, an e-mail address on the list, and a easy source for $715. The info and time estimates i have recieved have been ambiguous at best, and usually compleatly false. Obviously these are just my opinions, but the situation being what it is, I dont see any other way to feel. My brother on the other hand used his elderly wisdome to decide to go with the logic frame. Im not up to date on how those are going, but from what i read at least coohand (locgic frame) will tell you that he was too tired/drunk/crunk/bunk...to work on the guns. With me, honesty goes a long way. I would go with the logic frame, plus i personaly like how the LPR looks on the front and no ULT to mess with.

[MadPSIence]

You'll get the logic far sooner and it's also a better frame. The Devil is available only as a 90* or a modded hyper frame... most people like 45*. The Logic is a hybrid much like a 45* and is 100% made from scratch by Logic. It's also far better on batteries and the preorder gives you free anno + laser engraving.

easy choice really.

[GoblinGreen]

Thanks for the input. Kind of a bad vibe for the devil mag being so slow in production.

Im gonna look into the Logic Frame make sure all fits properly with my setup, I am under the impression that this mod is the Frame, VA and Blackhammer LPR which just needs to be connected to the Rail and away you go. Thanks again
Another bonus is I can pay via Paypal cause that whole Mail order/US bank cheque is a mission on its own.
I will also have a one of a kind marker in SA. hmmm :cool:

[Maggot6]

I'd reccomend Logic's frame as well...The time he is expecting to have these done is alot sooner, and it doesn't seem to only depend on his screwing up or wasting time, I think his board guys are taking forever as well.

[phantomhitman]

has logic released his yet, or does he have a round about date? I am interested in seeing how his setup works. If you take away a ult and add a lpr I do not think easier to work on is the phrase you are looking for either.

On the whole versus thing, get whatever you feel more comfy with. The electronics are the same.

[guysdaman]

depends on how long you like to wait. I dont know about the logic frames turnaround time but I can tell you that I have been waiting since March 2nd (7 months) to get my devilmag and As of now I have no Idea when it will be done. I have gotten no new info from chris(devil frame) since early June, and quite frankly have never felt so robbed and taken advantage of. I am definatly just seen as a number in line, an e-mail address on the list, and a easy source for $715. The info and time estimates i have recieved have been ambiguous at best, and usually compleatly false. Obviously these are just my opinions, but the situation being what it is, I dont see any other way to feel. My brother on the other hand used his elderly wisdome to decide to go with the logic frame. Im not up to date on how those are going, but from what i read at least coohand (locgic frame) will tell you that he was too tired/drunk/crunk/bunk...to work on the guns. With me, honesty goes a long way. I would go with the logic frame, plus i personaly like how the LPR looks on the front and no ULT to mess with.

I feel you mandatory...I paid on the 25th of January! :wow: And am still waiting like most others to hear any scrap of information.

[Chronobreak]

all im gonna say is ignore every post in this thread


first go to toe offical devilamg thread, and skim around reading replies, maybe pming somone with one.

also look at logics thread.


im sure youl notice some differeances.

that is all.. :ninja:

[SCpoloRicker]

Second the "you people are morans" comment. Jeez.

How many frames has Coolhand shipped to customers? If you think he is not going to have difficulty with his own production process... you're probably a 19 year old "inovator".

Pissy, I know, but I'm tired of the constant whining.

[MadPSIence]

Second the "you people are morans" comment. Jeez.

How many frames has Coolhand shipped to customers? If you think he is not going to have difficulty with his own production process... you're probably a 19 year old "inovator".

Pissy, I know, but I'm tired of the constant whining.

of course he could have trouble, but he's being realistic about how things are progressing the only real screw up now is if TAG takea a few weeks extra or the Anno guy is slow. I don't see that taking 8 - 10 months so Logic Frame > Devilframe this far.

why don't you just go talk about how silly I am on the thorums hey?

[SCpoloRicker]

of course he could have trouble, but he's being realistic about how things are progressing the only real screw up now is if TAG takea a few weeks extra or the Anno guy is slow. I don't see that taking 8 - 10 months so Logic Frame > Devilframe this far.

why don't you just go talk about how silly I am on the thorums hey?

1. He is basically in pre-pro with his frames IIRC. Go ahead and pre-order if you're so confident. He needs the money to get the project going.

2. Do you really think you have an exclusive liscence on being an irritating college kid?

[MadPSIence]

1. He is basically in pre-pro with his frames IIRC. Go ahead and pre-order if you're so confident. He needs the money to get the project going.

2. Do you really think you have an exclusive liscence on being an irritating college kid?

1. I pre-ordered a long time ago
2. Welcome to my ignore list. Link (http://www.specialtyblades.com/blade_types/razor.html)

[SCpoloRicker]

Oh noes!

Foutes l'accord d'ici!

[mandatory]

I just want to make clear that my basis for reccomending coolhand over GAdevil is honesty. Chris has lied to me, either directly or implied, on multiple occations and especially in the beginning when I was making my purchase decision. I call that fishing, and I dont find it to be a very "friendly" business practice. I dont like being treated as some faceless pray. Im sure there were things he could have told me or warned me about back then, pre-purchase, that whould have caused me to buy something different, but obviously he wasnt gonna tell me about them. It wasnt untill after the 05 AO norcal vs socal, the implied date we were trying to get the gun done for, did he start hinting that it could take months rather than weeks. And even then he kept giving me the "..hopefully we will have them done next week.." to keep me up at night wondering if it was gonna come, paying for tournaments that I wouldnt be able to play in for lack of a competative gun. Now All my excitment about the gun has all but turned to resentment and regret, not because of the wait, but the way i have been treated by Chris as well as some on AO. There were many things Chris could have said in the begining as well as along the way that would have prevented this situation from happining, but unfortunatly he chose not to.

On the side of coolhand, other than buying a 90* frame from him last year I have no expierence with him. So i guuess what im saying is that I recomended coolhand by defalt, not because I prefer him, but because I dont have any bad expierences with him.

[SCpoloRicker]

Its totally reasonable that you are upset with how the Dmag production is going. All I'm saying is that it really isn't fair for others to bash Chris in several threads.

I hope that Coolhand doesn't have the same degree of problems that Chris had. I'm confident that something will come up that throws a bit of a wrench in the process. It always does.

Also, when the Dmag was in pre-pro, everyone was raving and ranting over how astonishing it was going to be, and how it would revitalize Mags, etc. Bit of the same going on here, neh?

In the end, I think its great that we have multiple guys working on custom projects.

[phantomhitman]

first go to toe offical devilamg thread, and skim around reading replies, maybe pming somone with one.

also look at logics thread.


im sure youl notice some differeances.

that is all.. :ninja:

Um, not really that fair of a comparison. Chris is dealing with people and attempting to make the guns (which he has had horrible luck with the machine shop), Logic has yet to start. If you look at Chris' thrad he replied for hte first 20 pages or so and then stopped.....or did you read it back then? That is in not attempting to count the endless pms and emails he gets about them. I feel bad for everyone that purchased a dmag and has not received it, and I love to hear the snide *** comments about how its nothing special by a few people. Nothing special was ever promised about the dmag, and dumbass ao people hyped it up, not Chris. There is nothing legally faster, as cool looking or sounding than a dmag at top speed. If Chris robbed you, stole your parts, lied to you, or done any other wrong then you have every right to be mad. I have bought over 2 thousand dollars worth of stuff from Chris and he has never done me wrong, that is why I defend him.

edit-I also wanted to say logic is great guy too, and his frame looks pretty damn nice. When I see one of those in action I might be tempted...... :shooting:

[CoolHand]

The biggest difference is, that I am not in PreProduction.

I have 25 frames, setting here complete. There are 25 frames, 50 actuators, 50 pistons, 50 triggers, 25 trigger bearings, 50 VA's setting here on the shelf right now. They are done, waiting to be bought, anodized, and assembled. I also have 25 solenoids and 25 boards on order. The solenoids have to come from Japan, and are due in two weeks, which I do not doubt (I have ordered from these folks before). The boards are coming from TAG, and they are the one place we might see a snag from.

Anodizing is another place I have always had trouble with, but I have found two more places that I will be trying out, so I think we should be OK there.

They will take time to finish, but I am going to be really upset if they aren't shipping before Chistmas.

The two situations are not even close to the same. Chris had most of his delays due to trouble with his various machinists, and since all my machine work is done already, that is one set of snags we have navigated safely.

I think what people are failing to grasp is that this whole Electro frame thing isn't just buzz around one frame, that will be put into production. I held my tongue on this deal until I had all of my crap wired straight and all of the parts 100% designed and even ordered.

We are very near the end here for the pre-order guys. If you were to order a frame now, you could still get into the first run. After theirs go to ano, you would be a little bit behind as your parts would go to ano after everyone else's.

[mandatory]

In the end, I think its great that we have multiple guys working on custom projects.

I cant agree more

[Chronobreak]

well is ee coolhand posted his progress so no need for me to get into that

phantom, iwas actually just reffering to available information taht he would need to make a choice.

anything and everything, and more that he needs to make a decision is in the two threads :cool:

i wish people just read more instead of posting a vs thread :tard:

[SCpoloRicker]

Dang, Coolhand just pwnd me fairly effectively. ;)

Best of luck with your project. :cheers:

[CKY_Alliance]

You'll get the logic far sooner and it's also a better frame. The Devil is available only as a 90* or a modded hyper frame... most people like 45*. The Logic is a hybrid much like a 45* and is 100% made from scratch by Logic. It's also far better on batteries and the preorder gives you free anno + laser engraving.

easy choice really.


How do you know its a better frame? May not have been you but didnt you sell your spot for a devil frame..no matter have you had one or used one? and i can garuntee you havnt used a logic electro frame...so dont bash either..the people who do have devil frames have said they work and do what they are suppose to...im sure the logic will as well it comes down to do you want 90 or 45 degree.

[JoshK]

Dang, Coolhand just pwnd me fairly effectively. ;)

Best of luck with your project. :cheers:

He got you before I did. lol ;)



How do you know its a better frame? May not have been you but didnt you sell your spot for a devil frame..no matter have you had one or used one? and i can garuntee you havnt used a logic electro frame...so dont bash either..the people who do have devil frames have said they work and do what they are suppose to...im sure the logic will as well it comes down to do you want 90 or 45 degree.

It is going to be a better frame for many reasons. The only downside for only a few people is the look of the LPR. This thing is going to be amazing internally (please just trust me on this), and you can see from pictures already that it looks amazing (in my opinion atleast).

Logic has gone all out on this, and I give him mad props. Also he did his homework before getting into this. From updates on progress, and other sorts of things I can 99% asure you there won't be a wait anything like Devil's.

And for the same price, how could you pass something like this up?

[RoadDawg]

As of now neither frame is better then the other. Until it reaches the public it is no better then a paper weight. You can make all the educated guesses you want but until it is out in the public (not in a warehouse, shop, etc) it is not worth the time to argue over.

[warbeak2099]

Pros and Cons:

Logic EM Ripper:
Pros = better on batteries, less wait, doesn't need ULT and therefore has faster recharge.
Cons = lose about 5 shots per fill, little bit more complicated than a pancake noid tripper.

Devilmag:
Pros = better on gas.
Cons = needs the ULT and therefore might not recharge as fast.

[phantomhitman]

Pros and Cons:

Logic EM Ripper:
Pros = better on batteries, less wait, doesn't need ULT and therefore has faster recharge.
Cons = lose about 5 shots per fill, little bit more complicated than a pancake noid tripper.

Devilmag:
Pros = better on gas.
Cons = needs the ULT and therefore might not recharge as fast.

completely wrong
I have no idea who started this whole "ult makes it slower crap", but it is simply false. Unless the ult makes it slower up into the 30 bps range there is no droop off/shoot down/slower recharge on my gun. I remember a while back either agd or some other agd tech stated that the ult might cause sloer recharge rates, but I am not seeing it in my devilmag. Did that apply only to mech mags? What was the research on that topic? Also, how do you know that it will be better on batteries? I thought they were using the same board and the only difference being the lpr setup. Extra juice either goes to the solenoid or lpr right? If this has been stated by coolhand or devilsden let me know, because I missed it. I also do not see how the devil is better on air. If you use a level 7 bolt you cn shoot further into a tank, but it doesnt make it efficient (not anyting to notice anyways). Here are the main differences that WE KNOW OF.

devilsden-vert frame, predator electronics, fast, simple noid and eyes
logic-45 frame (nice by the way), predator electronics, im sure its fast, lpr

Anyone feel free to flame me or give me some info I am missing. I will gladly gain some knowledge and shut the hell up. Please do not misinform people about products.

[warbeak2099]

#1 No, the ULT recharging slower thing was tested by AGD using an emag. It's true that if not properly set up, the ULT will not reset as fast as a stock RTP/Emag on/off. The EM Ripper eliminates the need to tune it so that it can keep up. You basically have to have the right number of shims.

#2 Yes, they're using the same board, but the Dmag uses a pancake noid and the em ripper uses a e-pneu noid. The EM ripper uses a little more gas and less juice. An e-pneu with a ram is always going to be better on batteries than a pancake noid.

#3 I said the Devil is better on air because it doesn't use the e-pneu noid. So it doesn't lose those 5 shots per fill. The lvl 7 bolt on either will get you more shots per fill. I call getting more shots per fill better efficiency. I don't know what your definition is, that's just what I call it.

Also, you state that the EM ripper is a 45* frame. It is not. It is a hybrid frame. I'm not sure of the exact angle, but it is in between a 45 and a 90. So you get the low profile of a 45 and the comfort of a 90.

[Asym]

#1 No, the ULT recharging slower thing was tested by AGD using an emag.

Please back this up, show us a link where that is stated by anyone. They have always said not to use ULTs on emags because they were designed with the standard on/off which requires a lot more force thats why the solenoid is huge and requires a 18volt power source. Because of that added weight in the sear/solenoid it needs the 3 or 5 lbs of return force to reset the sear.


It's true that if not properly set up, the ULT will not reset as fast as a stock RTP/Emag on/off. The EM Ripper eliminates the need to tune it so that it can keep up. You basically have to have the right number of shims.

Its a smaller diameter hole, its just common sense and physics that smaller hole=less flow. Tuning a ULT is simple, once its set up the first time your done. Tuning a ULT is about getting your pin the right length, this never changes once you have it set.




Bashing either frame over the other is just retarded. They both do the same exact thing, push the sear so the gun fires.

[Lohman446]

Please back this up, show us a link where that is stated by anyone. They have always said not to use ULTs on emags because they were designed with the standard on/off which requires a lot more force thats why the solenoid is huge and requires a 18volt power source. Because of that added weight in the sear/solenoid it needs the 3 or 5 lbs of return force to reset the sear.



Its a smaller diameter hole, its just common sense and physics that smaller hole=less flow. Tuning a ULT is simple, once its set up the first time your done. Tuning a ULT is about getting your pin the right length, this never changes once you have it set.


I think you outlined the reason why the ULT is beleived to have less recharge rate than the standard on-off. How much less I have no clue

[TheTramp]

Just because someone states that they believe a pneumatic noid is "better" than a pancake noid doesn't mean they are bashing anything. I believe that coke is better than pepsi. I'm not bashing pepsi. No one's saying that the Devil Mag sucks. That would be bashing.

I feel that dealing with the ULT is a pain, you don't. I don't mind setting up an LPR, you might think that's a pain. Neither of us is bashing.

edit: you got in before me. ;)

[GoblinGreen]

Just looking at my Mag with the Intelliframe and Omega rail. Unless the Logic frame is the same size as a intelliframe this thing aint gonna just fit on my rail without me moving the VA.
I really didn't want this to turn into a flamer thread cause those devil mags are really the bomb, I haven't seen videos of the Logic frame so I dunno yet!

I see deadlywind made that prototype hAIR trigger and it was stopped by patents by Pro Team Products, Is LOGIC or Devilden related to PTP at all?

I know both Frames are using Predator boards and just the logic has a pneumatic solinoid, apparently the hAIR trigger is fully machanical design, Is Pro Team Products supposed to bringing out a new frame as well based on the hAIR. Or is this a dream thought?

[SCpoloRicker]

Well it sure is a good thing this wasn't a rough thread before. ;)

[11 Bravo]

Just looking at my Mag with the Intelliframe and Omega rail. Unless the Logic frame is the same size as a intelliframe this thing aint gonna just fit on my rail without me moving the VA.
I really didn't want this to turn into a flamer thread cause those devil mags are really the bomb, I haven't seen videos of the Logic frame so I dunno yet!

I see deadlywind made that prototype hAIR trigger and it was stopped by patents by Pro Team Products, Is LOGIC or Devilden related to PTP at all?

I know both Frames are using Predator boards and just the logic has a pneumatic solinoid, apparently the hAIR trigger is fully machanical design, Is Pro Team Products supposed to bringing out a new frame as well based on the hAIR. Or is this a dream thought?

I am not totally sure, but I think when you buy the Logic frame- it comes with the new rail. So you wont have to worry about matching anything up.

[Muzikman]

From what it says the Logic frame is just the frame and the new vert adapter. It states what frame it will work with in the dealer thread. I am sure Coolhand can answer if it will fit on an Omega rail or not.

[11 Bravo]

Ok it doesnt come with a rail. In the spec list Logic says that it will take small modification to fit a classic rail. Omega is a classic rail so just let logic know that you need the mod.

[warbeak2099]

Please back this up, show us a link where that is stated by anyone. They have always said not to use ULTs on emags because they were designed with the standard on/off which requires a lot more force thats why the solenoid is huge and requires a 18volt power source. Because of that added weight in the sear/solenoid it needs the 3 or 5 lbs of return force to reset the sear.

You just backed me up lol. The emag noid needs more return force to reset. The ULT doesn't have it. I said also that it's easy to tune the ULT when I stated it's just a matter of the number of shims you have. The Logic frame just allows you to eliminate the need for tuning the on/off. Still, the ULT will never have the same amount of return force as a stock on/off. It's not a bad thing, it just wasn't designed for that. It was designed to provide a very light trigger pull. And it does... on a mech. At electro speeds, I'd rather have the speed of the stock on/off.

[phantomhitman]

Um, you do understand that ONLY APPLIES TO EMAGS right? They were using such beefy parts that the light return of the on-off would work. Devilmag is no where near the emag in the parts department=no problem or recharge issues. You think that a ult is a bother I would love to see what you think about a lpr that is not working properly.

[CoolHand]

I don't see why there is this big argument over the tuning of either frame. Its a one time thing, for either one.

For the DMag, you just tune the ULT (now, granted, that means taking out the valve and degassing several times).

For the Ripper EM, you just turn the knob on the LPR (which will be set when it comes from me BTW).

It is faster to just turn the knob until it shoots, that's the only difference in tuning time, and you shouldn't have to set either frame up more than once.

Anyone who thinks that "tuning" an LPR is more time consuming and difficult than tuning the ULT is either fooling themselves, or stretching real hard to find a chink in the armor.

And yes, I have done tests on the battery life. A DMag and any Hyperframed mag will get about 5-7 cases of paint on a battery, no more.

My frame has gotten upwards of 35 cases, and in every test at least 30 cases on a battery.

That said, I will pretty much guarantee at least 15 cases on a battery.

And, before anyone asks, yes, I set it up and just let it cycle until the battery dropped below my cutoff voltage (which was 8.75 volts, most people consider a 9V dead when it reaches 6 volts). They would have gone longer, but I figure that absolutely no less than 3 times the battery life of the competition is acceptable, and it took so long to get them down to 8.75 volts, that it could have taken a week to totally kill one.