Anyone making doing custom pneumatic mag frames?

[GT]

It looks like there is no hope for pordution pneumatic frame. Can anyone make a custom one?

[slade]

yep. lots of people have/are making them, just look around, theres plenty of threads. but you wont be able to make the pull as light as the hAir trigger... well if you do manage to, tell me what 3-way you used ;)

[11 Bravo]

maybe Nicad could recomend a three way.

[onedude36]

or make us one (hint, hint)

EDIT:(the 3-way that nicad used, his custom super light one. )

i have no idea what im talking about.

[Alpha]

I tried to, but PTP threatened to sue me. No lie.

[Chronobreak]

..if im correct its not the components used its...how you place them

ie mainly the uhm,,,thing connected to the sear.

remember how automags work, check your pivot points

thats all im saying :ninja:

[WARPED1]

"Search" is your friend! :)

[Automaggot68]

I guess I should jump on the bandwagon too!
This is where I adopt the 'woe is me' mag shooter attitude.



:(

/victim
//nobody knows

[Automaggot68]

I guess I should jump on the bandwagon too!
This is where I adopt the 'woe is me' mag shooter attitude.



:(

/victim
//nobody knows



And as a Post script
(Photos courtesy of AO user 3-Pac)
It really isn't as difficult to do as most make.
Half of it is planning, the other half is actually getting the balls to cut up your frame.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/StaticKnight/IMG_1890.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/StaticKnight/IMG_1891.jpg

[Alpha]

Use barbs, they may be more permanent then push-quick's, but they save a ton of space, and it really adds up.

[Mer]

Just remember that you can legally make anything you want for your own use. When you start making products to sell it can be a different story if the product is patented.

[slade]

Use barbs, they may be more permanent then push-quick's, but they save a ton of space, and it really adds up.
...yeah, those fittings will take up a LOT of extra space. and in the logic frame i have, there isnt much space to spare. and wheres the QEV?

also, the fabco msv-1 is huge. even though it has a lighter pull than the clippard smav-3 they have a lot of extra brass on it, im guessing, for mounting for a particular application. you can cut off a lot of material, just take it apart first so you dont cut TOO much off, and make sure you clean it before reassembling. also, you can adjust the sensitivity of it (the pressure on the spring) by adjusting the screw on the back, although you will have to re-apply loctite.

oh, and if youre using a logic frame, remember that the bore size of the clippard actuator is .375", and the spacing between the walls of the frame is .375". there is extra material on the clippard actuator you can file down, but the sizing means its not possible to file it down enough to fit in, since you need to leave some material. also, you will have to have extra material at one end for the c-clip, although you can cut the threads down to the c-clip. you will have to mill out the frame itself, for which i would suggest using end mills and a mini mill... i had to use a drill press because i dont think my school would let me use their $5000+ milling machine without taking a course first (which, i would note, my required classes do not allow me to take... :mad: ) and a drill press does the job but its not exactly as stable as a milling machine. i would not recomend a dremel.

[slade]

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/3885/mvc001f9rj.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mvc001f9rj.jpg)
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/929/mvc003f6tj.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mvc003f6tj.jpg)
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/5946/mvc004f5jf.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mvc004f5jf.jpg)
(i could probably cut more material off of the msv-1, but its not necessary as of yet.)

i dont have any pictures of my frame because my mag is in NJ now, im hoping tuna can fix it cause i couldnt figure out what was wrong with it. and no, it wasnt anything i did... i tried my y-frame and it wouldnt shoot, and swapped out parts with my friend's mag and couldnt get it to work.

and this is why you use 6061 aluminum... home depot just doesnt cut it.
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/149/mvc002f5xx.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mvc002f5xx.jpg)

[Arstron]

I have all the parts to do one, but couldnt cut up that blue Chimera, I know have a used black intelliframe that they will fit nicely into though. The only problem I am having right now is building the piston, since I cant find the right size riv-nut, I am going to have to make my own. I am thinking a bench grinder and a old drill bit or bolt should work nicely. :D

[RRfireblade]

I tried to, but PTP threatened to sue me. No lie.


That's a outright lie and you know it.


Let's see a copy of the C&D. :rolleyes:

[Automaggot68]

That's a outright lie and you know it.


Let's see a copy of the C&D. :rolleyes:

OH SNAP.

It's good to see you posting jay, albeit I'm sorry to see it in this situation.

[tyrion2323]

Just remember that you can legally make anything you want for your own use. When you start making products to sell it can be a different story if the product is patented.

I tried using that argument when the police shut down my meth lab.

dang..

[Alpha]

That's a outright lie and you know it.


Let's see a copy of the C&D. :rolleyes:


I'm also sure he's fully aware that 'offering a service' that clearly infringes on a Patented and Licensed product would find him in C&D faster than 20bps. If his bank account is as bobide suggests, I think he's going to have to borrow cab fair just to make it to the court hearing.

I said threatened, and that was undoubtedly an open threat.

http://www.paintballforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112508&page=1&highlight=pneumag+thread

EDIT: Call it an exaggeration by usign the phrase "PTP threatened to sue" if you want, but you told me if I made pneumatic grip frames for people, I would be found in court (sued)

[RRfireblade]

Definately not a threat. And you were never contacted by PTP or any PTP legal represention.

Thats a lot more than an exageration IMO , sounds more like some one just wanted to sound 'cool' . ;)

But go ahead and quote the rest of our discussions on the subject where I said....


Build , sell ,manufacture , whatever you want. I really could care less if it infringes on someones Patent or not as long as it's not one I hold. I was just pointing out the obvious which is that the parties involved with the 'current' patents under focus right now are avid Forum readers


The real question is would BE/K2 really go after him? If it was done low key and in low volume, especially after the product has already hit the market, very doubtful.Not worth the time and effort.

And I've stated a dozen times or more that it's not my Patent , I have no interest in it , and I can care less who infringes on it.

[SCpoloRicker]

I tried to, but PTP threatened to sue me. No lie.

Adjusts tinfoil.

edit:"cab fare"
double
LMAO! That show was so messed up. Now back to WHITE PEOPLE! Ok kids... so we're about to launch for space with our white kids at home. Now lets bring out our special guest....TYRONE!1111 Hey! I'm ready to blast off! But you're not white....new guest! KAYLA!!!!11 YAY! Ready for launch. Count with us! 10...9...8...sev-TWO! SHOOMOM! We're there!

Agreed, that show made me stupider

[Alpha]

So which is it?

I understand you're not the legal representation of PTP. You worked for them and seemed to know a lot more about what was going on then the rest of us, so I think thats why Jay and PTP seem to be an interchangable term lately ;)



But if done very public, like posting it in a public paintball forum, prior to the intial release of the product they 'may' just issue a ceist and desist order if anything and he would just end up stuck with his initial investment of parts , time and labor and such.

The way you say PTP is "arguably the largest company in paintball.", and the fact you said they 'may' give me a cease and desist, and that I'd need to "borrow cab fare" to the hearing intimidates me to the point where I read between the lines and say to myself "Hey, this guy's right, I'm going to get sued."

EDIT: That show was called wonderchozen.. Its basicly sesime street on acid.

[RRfireblade]

Since I said K2/BE that would obviously the "large company" .

And the cab fare quote was obviously a joke relating to something your friend said prior to that post and you know it.

Stop playing the semantics game....it's doesn't fare well in the presence of adults. ;)

FYI, PTP is 'arguably' one of the smallest long time companies in paintball with typically 4-ish full time employees , besides the owners, average. NOT the big bad sword weilding fiend many of you think they are. :ninja:

[ClassicMagger]

Just informing of the post so everyone else is up to date on this....

http://www.paintballforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1385573&postcount=12

I'm also sure he's fully aware that 'offering a service' that clearly infringes on a Patented and Licensed product would find him in C&D faster than 20bps ;-) . If his bank account is as bobide suggests, I think he's going to have to borrow cab fair just to make it to the court hearing. :D

Sounds like a threat to me. Talk about semantics. :tard:

[latches109]

I doubt ptp would sue alpha for making a couple pneumatic frames.

if
pD>CP
then ptp files
where: p=probability of plaintiff winning, D=damages, CP=cost to plaintiff for lawsuit.

and there are such cases where the defendant has been violating patent laws for years, and then the plaintiff finds out. Then the plaintiff sues for the infringement and a percentage of past sales. Provided they could prove it.

I wouldn’t sue some one for $10 if it cost me a $500 to get it.

[TheShark]

I'd sure feel threatened if someone that represents or has represented PTP said that to me.

[RRfireblade]

Fine whatever , take it as a threat from some one who had no authority and to make a threat and who stated that fact a number of times....

That was one line out like a 3 thread discussion.

It was stated many times over that I do NOT represent PTP in that discussion but fine, then say I was the one who "Cautioned" Alpha about starting a for sale thread for an infringing product on what just happens to be a Forum owned and run by one of PTP bigger dealers.Next time I'll just go ahead and stand by while let the little guys take the fall...that would have been much better. :rolleyes:

[RRfireblade]

I'll have the whole thing fixed by the morning...don't sweat it.

[GT]

I doubt ptp would sue alpha for making a couple pneumatic frames.

if
pD>CP
then ptp files
where: p=probability of plaintiff winning, D=damages, CP=cost to plaintiff for lawsuit.

and there are such cases where the defendant has been violating patent laws for years, and then the plaintiff finds out. Then the plaintiff sues for the infringement and a percentage of past sales. Provided they could prove it.

I wouldn’t sue some one for $10 if it cost me a $500 to get it.


I dont even think you have to get that detailed. We have a current/former PTP rep that is stating the phenumatic frame would not be profitible for the mag market. So the question is how can one pay damages for producing a product that would cause a company a loss durring full production.


Or is the patent profitible for mags hmmm.....

[rkjunior303]

a patent protects an idea. while the product may not be profitable in the MAG market, the idea of it may be applicable to OTHER markets which would in turn be profitable to the said patent holder.

intellectual property, such as ideas that are patented, can be worth just as much if not more (depending on where they can be applied) as physical hardware.

[RRfireblade]

I dont even think you have to get that detailed. We have a current/former PTP rep that is stating the phenumatic frame would not be profitible for the mag market.

Never said that was the reason for the delays of this project. It had been stated by many however , that IS the reason why all previous Mag part manufacturers have stopped making Mag parts...that and the fact that AGD and others here who claim to want more aftermarket Mag activity SLAM THE LIVING CRAP out of every aftermarket mag product and tell the world that all you need is AGD parts. ;)

And yes, Patents are potential far more profitable than a gross of Mag grip frames....suprise.

Still wondering why no one is pissed at AGD for not pursuing this product? Dropping the ball on DW? Have no desire to work with PTP? Not to mention AGD's just going to trash any aftermarket effort by anyone anyway....

Hmm.....

[Alpha]

How can AGD persue it if PTP owns the patent? Dont tell me when you were with PTP they were waiting for AGD to take it and run?

From what I understand, this frame was ideolized to have been able to have versians for cockers and other sear trippers. Why didnt WGP persue it? Spyder? Tippmann?

[Muzikman]

For what I know AGD dropped their interest with DW because of PTP. I can only assume why they would not buddy up with PTP again.

That all being said, when the idea was first brought public by DW, it was a great idea. Today, the market has shifted and if your product is not electronic shooting 30bps and not cheap it will not make it. There are exceptions, but the Pneumatic frame is not one of them.

[RRfireblade]

How can AGD persue it if PTP owns the patent? Dont tell me when you were with PTP they were waiting for AGD to take it and run?

From what I understand, this frame was ideolized to have been able to have versians for cockers and other sear trippers. Why didnt WGP persue it? Spyder? Tippmann?

Back when this all started PTP would haved worked with AGD in a second, could have easily included DW at that time. Curious tho how that was about the time Tom pulled the strings on AGD future develpment and then there after announced retirement but I can't speak for him on that subject. One can only assume that is this product was such a good thing for AGD , AGD would think so too. ;) WGP IS pursuing it on 2 different from and is why the initial product focus is what it was...I guess you can go ask them why it's taking them so long too. :D and K2 is now in control of the whole Patent side. PTP has nothing to do with the legal actions going on with Patents they've now since licensed out.

[Alpha]

Back when this all started PTP would haved worked with AGD in a second, could have easily included DW at that time. Curious tho how that was about the time Tom pulled the strings on AGD future develpment and then there after announced retirement but I can't speak for him on that subject. One can only assume that is this product was such a good thing for AGD , AGD would think so too. ;) WGP IS pursuing it on 2 different from and is why the initial product focus is what it was...I guess you can go ask them why it's taking them so long too. :D and K2 is now in control of the whole Patent side. PTP has nothing to do with the legal actions going on with Patents they've now since licensed out.

there ya go! Dont just blame AGD on it.

[GT]

Back when this all started PTP would haved worked with AGD in a second, could have easily included DW at that time. Curious tho how that was about the time Tom pulled the strings on AGD future develpment and then there after announced retirement but I can't speak for him on that subject. One can only assume that is this product was such a good thing for AGD , AGD would think so too. ;) WGP IS pursuing it on 2 different from and is why the initial product focus is what it was...I guess you can go ask them why it's taking them so long too. :D and K2 is now in control of the whole Patent side. PTP has nothing to do with the legal actions going on with Patents they've now since licensed out.

I dont want to start a fight in this thread, although the other thread I am game. When you say "would haved worked with ;" Do you mean worked with like SP did with ICD and AKA or do you mean worked with like WGP and eclipse.

All of those players were "worked" in some way, however the SP thing didnt really work for a number of companies.

[RRfireblade]

I dont want to start a fight in this thread, although the other thread I am game. When you say "would haved worked with ;" Do you mean worked with like SP did with ICD and AKA or do you mean worked with like WGP and eclipse.

All of those players were "worked" in some way, however the SP thing didnt really work for a number of companies.

PTP and AGD has always worked together as close friends. PTP develped the Emag (Patent applied for) and handed it to AGD for a song. Before that, the first aftermarket bodies for the Mag and all the other accessories to follow. Before that PTP developed the PT Spacer system and stopped producing it at the request of Tom so AGD could. PTP developed the first aftermarket double trigger frame for the mag and handed it to the whole PB world, the list goes on and on. Most of which no one has any idea about especially since PTP has shifted it's line from exclusively Tourny products to scenerio...now all of a sudden it's not what have you done but what have you done for me lately.

I'm quite sure that if AGD was even remotely interested in marketing this product with PTP, it would have easily been worked out. Forest and Tom go WAY back...way. But at that time, Tom wanted out of the business and it is 'my' feeling that he wasn't going to start another project like this regardles. Check the old hAir threads and see for yourself how he expressed great concern over the ability to manufacture such a complex product. He was never sure, as far as I can tell, that AGD was going to get involved and that was well before the Patent issues came up. My gut feeling is he was looking for an excuse to back out with out having to take the heat himself. (Just 'my' feeling)

PTP is primarily an R&D firm and really is not large enough or have the capacity to do mass production...they don't really want to either way.They would have been glad to hand it over as long as both parties benefit from the partnership. What good is a royalty if you don't sell any units? Common sense really.

But I'm going to say this for the last time (I keep saying that huh? )...

Never said the P Frame is dead, never said it's delays have anything to do with market share, never siad it's delays have anything to do with interest in the Mag market and never said it's delays have anything to do with profitability at this point. The dealer thread show'd the numbers I theorized would make production a reality and as of today , 10/25/2005 , I have every reason to believe it's still going to happen.

There simply is no real rush , the Mag market isn't going anywhere and the Mag users aren't in desperate need of this frame. They aren't going to trade in thier mag if this frame doesn't come out. Those that do or did trade thier Mag over this delay would have done so eventually regardless...a trigger frame isn't going to change a Mag into a Timmy or DM6. It's not going to make you competitive against the 15bps+ rampers and it's not going to get you a pro sponsorship. It's not going to " Put the Mag back on the Map".

IMO , it's not a life changing issue in the world of paintball. I'm not sure why some of you are making it so....I really don't undersand it with all the 'real' issues that have been going on in the paintball world and with AGD in particular.

[Lohman446]

I dont want to start a fight in this thread, although the other thread I am game. When you say "would haved worked with ;" Do you mean worked with like SP did with ICD and AKA or do you mean worked with like WGP and eclipse.

All of those players were "worked" in some way, however the SP thing didnt really work for a number of companies.

What company worked with SP and failed? Those that chose not to work with them? Planet Eclipse, Dye, WGP, ICD, all seem to be doing fine once they decided that SPs patent was valid.

[11 Bravo]

Still wondering why no one is pissed at AGD for not pursuing this product? Dropping the ball on DW? Have no desire to work with PTP? Not to mention AGD's just going to trash any aftermarket effort by anyone anyway....

Hmm.....


I am. I am very dissapointed in them. I think they are letting us all down.

[GT]

What company worked with SP and failed? Those that chose not to work with them? Planet Eclipse, Dye, WGP, ICD, all seem to be doing fine once they decided that SPs patent was valid.


I am not going to spell it out for you. There have been a number of markers that were not or are not made anymore because of the sp "patent" that everyone knows is a crock of crap.

[Lohman446]

I am not going to spell it out for you. There have been a number of markers that were not or are not made anymore because of the sp "patent" that everyone knows is a crock of crap.

If its so obvious how come noone has successfully challenged it in court (WDP aside)? The fact of the matter is, they held a patent that not even K2 challenged - and they have patent attorneys readily available. It seems the only people challenging the validity of the patent are doing so from the sidelines, and the vast majority of them without enough information to have a clue what they are talking about. I'm sorry if they made a better business move than others to get it, but it does not change the fact they have it

What SP did, or what is the general beleif they did with the limited knowledge we have: Issued cease and desist orders and let the past go, allowing companies to sell existing stock and even to assemble markers from existing components for sale.

What SP could have done (I think): Issued cease and desist orders and sued for past damages from every electro marker ever sold that may have harmed sales of there markers. Further they could have demanded destruction of currently on-sold markers in inventory or components to manufacture that were in violation of the patent.

I think what they did was rather reasonable, considering the cards they hold.

[phantomhitman]

I will destroy you all

No lie, that is what I overheard him say at last years "Rulers of the Paintball World". :rolleyes:



You people need to get real, ptp has the patent and regardless of how innocent it may seem NO ONE should even mention selling a similiar gun. Even making a few for friend is wrong and everyone knows it. Fireblade has every right to say what he is saying, and he even warned him before it escalated to the internet fight it has become.