The PTP Choke.

[GT]

I have been giving this some thought latly. PTP, back in the day when they were benchmark, made a bunch of mag stuff. Durring the mags tenure as a popular marker PTP/Benchamrk made grip frames, fore grips, exp chambers, rails, site rails, bodies, tourney locks, etc. I would have thought that at a minnium we, at some point like 3 years ago, would have seen the madusa frame. You would think that a company with the resources, as ptp does, would have come out with some kind of aftermarket mag stuff. In all honesty we probally have 1/2 dozen guys on AO that do thier own prodcut line. I am not saying that its easy, however it has to be hella easier than what one guy can do.


So lets review the current state of affairs of PTP and thier "love" for the mag...



Not as of yet even tho it's basically ready to go.

I've recieved some emails from certain people (I won't say who) still personally concerned about the potential for a legal issues associated with a software upgrade that's 'non-AGD'.

I'm completely amazed that it's perfectly fine to mill the living crap out of a structural peice of the marker (rail,grip frame) or just hack off certain other parts (Body), add a completely aftermarket electronics package (you know what) or any number of other mods and these same people don't have a single problem with it. I'm now concerned what may come from this and am currently re-evaluating my stance on this particular upgrade.

Funny thing is, there doesn't seem to a single problem like this with any other type of marker out there and it's personally attached users, it's seems like it only happens here.

Anyway...

That's where I am right now. I really appologize to those who've waited this long but I need to look into a few things before I go any farther at this point.

Sorry.

Emag software..... DEAD


K, here's the deal:

Everyone says they want one, yadda yadda yadda so...

What we're talking about is a complete Pneumatic (Not electronic) grip frame upgrade for the Automag regardless of valve system it's based on. If you can bolt a Mag frame on it, your good to go.

There will be design pics up later but basically it's going to be a hybrid style frame meaning it will be half way in between .45 style and 90* Vertical. Best of both worlds kinda thing.It will come with everything you need to bolt it on and go and have additional options such as on/off ASAs and universal airports so you can use te ASA of your choice with little or no external hosing visable.

This will NOT be a drop in modification, we will not install it in your or any other existing frame and at this time this is the only style frame it will be offered on. What happens down the road I don't know so don't ask. ;)

The details:

This thread is only to gauge serious interest. If it looks like there will be enough interest from serious people (we need 100-200) I will start a pre-order thread which will require non-refundable deposit (refundable only if we don't reach the minimum number of people) and then payment in full sometime there after.

Estimated ETA of 4-6 months after commencment

Estimate MSRP $299


Looks like the mag version of this frame is...... DEAD


The sad part of this commentary is that the "old guard" of AO would not have let these issues die so easily. Either make a porduct or don't, it doesnt matter to me. What does drive me into a shooting rampage is to use AO as means to increase ones "e-cool."


gt

p.s. go astros

[peewee]

As far as everyone knows at this time they are still planning on releasing the frame, I believe that one of the gals from PTP has joined AO & said as much. But with current production abilities they can only do so much. They had some contractual obligations with WGP etc. The point of this thread?

[CoolHand]

OK, normally I wouldn't just wade into the middle of something like this, but since Jay isn't around much to defend himself I'll have a go at it. (Plus, I'm just getting tired of seeing all these woe is me threads.)

You have two gripes:

1) The Emag software was brought up and then shelved.

AND

2) The pnue frame is taking a long time/may never come.

Let's take these one at a time.

1) Well, the quote you used to show that the EMag software is dead basically spells out why it had to die. How can you read that and then turn right around and ***** at Jay because it didn't happen? You pretty much know who killed that project, and they didn't work for PTP, nor was their name Jay.

2) PTP knows just as well as anyone else does that the project can't be done to meet your price expectations unless they make a whole crap load of them, AND sell them all. Regardless of how vocal the guys wanting this to happen are, they need to realize that there just aren't that many of them. Sure, there were 200+ "yes" votes on that poll, but I would be ridiculously surprised if more than 20% of them actually bought one at the projected price point. Cut that number in half at least if the final retail price is over the initial estimate. It just isn't profitable to build 500 of them, and then sell 30. And if you only build 30, they will cost $400 a pop. There really isn't a way to make them profitable right now, which is very likely why PTP is sitting on their hands. BUT, since they don't want to loose their collective asses on a dubious project, they are the bad guy who crushed poor DW with an SP'esce patent, and then did nothing with it. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So, if you've got to take a hosing, better that it be a PR black eye than a financial kick to jewel sack, if you catch my meaning.

There is every possibility that they may come back to the pneumag concept at some point, but you guys will have lost interest and it won't go anywhere. Demonizing the guys holding all the cards to the Mag upgrade of your dreams is not the most productive way to get what you want.

Either way, neither one of those things is Jay's fault. You sir (GT in this case), are stringing up the messenger as an easy way to vent your frustration. PTP thinks that you Mag guys aren't worth the trouble, and Jay went to the mats for you all. This is how you thank him.

No wonder he wanted to change professions (well, that and there is many orders of magnitude more money in real estate).

[Chronobreak]

after talking with jay severalt times as well.. :cool:

he was basicly hired to do the prototype and give it to ptp, that is what we did.

its his job after all..,

but i agree were all very mad that this things probly isnt comong out,and as for me the $ i had waiting i alreayd spent it on other gear that is available now. so if ptp said tomm hey were mkaing them wanna spend $200~, i would say sorry too late. as im sure a few other people would.

300~ pneumags owuld easily sell if they were at $250 or less. i have no doubts on that.

but i must agreee the whole situation is frustrating and feels like were getting the run around.I know jay feels the same way but even if he wnated to there is nothing he can do.
it is his idea to do all the amg stuff after all and push it onto ptp such as the bolt idea,software, the pneumag..

HOWEVER on another sidenot...while we dont have the pneuframes yet..neither does anyone else :ninja: (k2(,be)(tippmann?) etc..so....im not lost of hope yet :rolleyes: but the wait time seems horrendous. i can only imagine how certain people waiting for certain products must feel now

[ZEROte]

if you want a medusa frame it is possible to get one. i remember asking for one and being told that if i want one you can send them an email on how to get one.

and pretty much everyone else beat me to commenting on the other things so im just going to go out by saying lets just hope that ptp gives us what we sorta want but cant afford.

[RRfireblade]

Well....

All I can say is this.... I am just one person amongs a sea of people above me. Unfortunately , I often end up being the only voice that gets heard by the public....it didn't used to be like that as I never wanted to be that person and I like it far less now....trust me.


I do development and design work for more than a few people and companies...PTP just being the one I was/am most recently on full time salary for, however....I am not the person who deciedes what gets built by who and when.You all think it's frustrating not getting what you want but imagine, for just one second, you not getting or seeing things you spend time designing , developing , testing , etc yourself....I'm talking like not ever seeing the light of day and you know in your heart it would be a great product. Usually it's for some reason like " We don't have budget for that right now (but we apparently do for stuff that's not selling as well as this product would) " or "We don't have machine time to fit that in (but we apparently do for stuff that isn't bringing in as big money as this product would) " The bottom line is those who own thier own business' make the choices they think are right at the time for them. It's very easy after the fact to determine if it's the right choice...not so easy in advance. Trust me, I wouldn't want to be the person that makes those decisions either.

As for AGD related stuff , it's hard to justify support for a company who currently has thier head in the sand and is hoping that when it pulls it's head out, the world will magically come back to thier idea of what the industry 'should' be...the current president would rather dig dirt and look at the stars while the second in charge is primarily concerned with nickel and diming dusty parts left over from the 90's. It's pretty hard to find any desire to take a risk on that kind of commitment to the future.

The 'few' people here on AO making Mag products, most of which are starting with stock AGD parts in the first place and simply re-mill and/or simply re-annodize them , do NOT have to make the huge investments in raw product , production , design , development and manufacturing...would also not last a single day in this business if thier whole income depended on Mag sales. The number of 'custom' built and sold Mags EVER sold by all AO dealers combined say in the last year or probably the last few years , wouldn't satisfy the requirements a typical large manufactuer (WGP for instance) would need to see in a single month alone to continue to support the line.

Anyway....got a little off track there.

In regards to PTP , they are doing things they think are right for themselves...some of things I may not agree with...some of thier direction I may not have taken myself but...

In regards to PTP's support for the Mag , it has always been directly related to the support they have recieved from AGD and from the Mag buying public. The sad truth is that the Mag as a whole has been and is basically all but dead. It is no longer a viable product and has not been for quite some time. Its existstance is based solely on grass roots word of mouth and this paintball forum (without which none of the other smaller forum spin offs would have ever seen the the light of day).

Mag owners need to think of it in terms of something like old cars....you all shoot a relic like a 64 dodge. It's primary support is going to come from other owners and users , classifieds and swap meets and a handfull of aftermarket parts makers biulding parts in thier garage or as a sideline to thier regular sources of income. Simple fact. Mags aren't coming back...Mags won't ever be the 'in' thing and Mags well never be mainstream ever again.

Don't waste your energy on what you 'wish' would happen. You want to be suportive of the Mag? Have an active say in their direction? Take $200,000 to $500,000 of your own money and invest it in AGD and then you'll likely see something out of them you would like to see. Until then your time would be better spent wishing it's won't rain next time youi plan to be outside. That's about as effective as demanding your dreams be granted here. :D

IMO. ;)

And sorry if I sound harsh or mean...I'm not intending to be , honest...I think I'm just 'over' the paintball business overall and may have a tinted view this morning. :tard:

[warbeak2099]

Here's an example with cars that goes in the other direction.

The original Pontiac GTO was an amazing car. Probably one of the best American cars ever made. It was put out of production in the 70's what with the oil crisis and was only owned by collectors and enthusiasts for a while. Well, last year, GM came out with the new GTO. It's a dirty peice of horse manure, but it came back with a new facelift. Just because they did a shoddy job doesn't mean AGD would also. Not all products just dissapear forever. They can either come back as a peice of tin, disappear, or come back in a really well designed "new" form. Mags have the potential to do the latter, it's just up to AGD.

[CoolHand]

Actually, what the GTO did is come back just like the Shocker did.

Brand new product, same old name plates.

The car companies have been doing that for years. Hell, I think GM only has about 25 car names that they just continuously cycle through. Which is fine, brand recognition is something they kill for, so it only makes sense to stick with what people already know.

The problem is, people already "know" that Mags suck, they're heavy, get 5 shots per fill, chop, are ugly, etc.

I'm not really sure if AGD could have a triumphant comeback with the name AutoMag at all.

[11 Bravo]

[QUOTE=RRfireblade]

As for AGD related stuff , it's hard to justify support for a company who currently has thier head in the sand and is hoping that when it pulls it's head out, the world will magically come back to thier idea of what the industry 'should' be...the current president would rather dig dirt and look at the stars while the second in charge is primarily concerned with nickel and diming dusty parts left over from the 90's. It's pretty hard to find any desire to take a risk on that kind of commitment to the future. QUOTE]





Dont take this wrong because I do love Automags, I own 3 and think that thay are on par with most any marker out there. But most of AGD's woes can be blamed on AGD management. I could be wrong, they could be making a fortune, but I doubt it. AGD has a great product with the lvl10 and Xvalve but if they dont do anything to improve the platforms that it sits in they are going to be irrelevent. I dont think it would take much to revamp there existing products and make them more cosmetically appealing. And they could do well in the scenario and woodsball area. It would take more to get back into speedball however. Especially since they have quit developing an Emag. Why the hell cant they make an add on egrip like the one for A5s. Sure it would take money and I am sure that if they had faith in AGD they could come up with the money, But if AGD does not have faith in itself there is not much hope. Maybe they should bring someone in that can breath life into the company.

Now go ahead and jump all over me.

[11 Bravo]

Maybe Coolhand and RRfireblade can take over and run AGD. Of course you could include
Deadly wind also. :wow:

Dont wake me up.....I am having a nice dream... :)

[warbeak2099]

The problem is that AGD's marketing was run by an engineer for so long, TK. Sure the guy is a crack scientist and can engineer some great stuff, but he just didn't market it right. He did fine with technology, but not with flare. He began the "stick your head in the sand" technique that Dav Z is still doing. Does Dave even post on here????

[Alpha]

The 'few' people here on AO making Mag products, most of which are starting with stock AGD parts in the first place and simply re-mill and/or simply re-annodize them , do NOT have to make the huge investments in raw product , production , design , development and manufacturing...

Why does the ptpneuframe have to be a compeltely new design then? I really dont think Rogue and CooHand take Intelliframes, grind off some stuff and reanno them and make them into Chimeras and Logic Frames...

Team up with Rogue, and get a contract with him to put the pneumatics inside Chimeras. Home modders use the Chimera for our home made pneumags all the time. They have so much damn room in them. Logic Frames are pretty spacious too!

Its really a simple design.. A switch, and a ram. Granted exhaust valves help the cycle rates of the ram, LPR's help tune down the trigger pull, and theres always the need/want to have no external hoses (buy AGD botomlines and tap the top for 1/8" extension to the frame). Use existing parts, like I and many others have done. Talk to clippard minimatics.

My point is, if you cant fabricate everything yourself, buy all the existing parts and make it modular like that. Thats even better because when something dies, its that much easier to repair.

So what if your not going to make hundreds of thousands of dollars off it. If your not going to make big money off it, fine. Then let the little guys who dont do it for the money make their pneumags. They obviously cant produce hundreds like you cant, so its not like their taking business away.

I dont mean to be rude either, but I'll go ahead and say it:

Do it or dont.

If its the former, excellent. You'll make a lot of maggers happy. And perhaps you wont get the million dollar profits, but you CAN make a profit out of it. It wont hurt.

If the latter, then fine. You did your best, and proved that you can develop a far supereor 3-way. Let Deadlywind at it. You said its not fair that you dont get the money for patents you worked so hard for. Understandable. I agree with you. But dont be an *** and pull the whole 'If I go down your going with me' deal. Bad ethics IMHO.

At least try to get ptp to do/say something. I know for a fact they are losing customers over this, and will continue to.

When I say you in my thread, I am referring to PTP, not you jay.. I understand and respect that your just the PR hand in AO and I'm sure as r&d, you dont get absolute power in acting or sitting on the patent.

[Recon by Fire]

I won't knock anyone for their efforts in the support of Automags. If a private label company makes any aftermarket products for your brand of choice, be happy. Nothing says they have to at all. It can be disappointing to get a sneak peek at something and then find it will never see the light of day.

Aside from all of this, I cannot say I really comprehend why the new software versions for E/X-mags have never been released by AGD or others. Issues with full-auto, safety..blah,blah, blah..... there are tons of companies producing ramping, cheating, full auto boards for other markers. So I don't see how it would be any different.

Maybe the new Predator boards will someday be available, maybe I will get one. But honestly 3.2 with semi-auto works for me. The only feature I would care for is full-auto for scenario/private games.

Paintball makes me wish I was a machinist and electronic nerd, LOL :)

[Nutsnyomowf]

I think if AGD had followed what PTP was doing along time ago they would still had a fighting chance. The 1st mag I fell in love with was made by PTP.They made the mag more simple then what it already was.

[WARPED1]

Theres very little market for aftermarket mag parts. Little demand equals little money, little money equals a no go on mag projects. The only real market is here on AO and a few "old timers" who don't play enough to soend over $500 on a marker setup to compete in todays game. The Eguns are even popping up all over in woodsball. The last 24 hour scenario I attended had a crapload of Eguns and pumps and a few mags.
This is no bash on mags, so the mod who always tells me I said mags suck, and "you have no rights here"(you know who you are) calm down, because they don't suck, they're just not the best gun anymore. I remember when the tourney world was played in the woods and 2 mech markers dominated the world. 'Cockers and MAGS!

[VFX_Fenix]

Well, I'll QFT Jay, and add.

Guys, wake-up, join the rest of the paintball community at large, the Automag is about as alive as the Ford Pinto. AGD blew it, simple as that, they sat on their laurals for so long that by the time they realised they had a problem they might as well have closed the doors and called it a career. Seriously, the Automag community at large is so small it's barely even worth noticing to anyone outside of it. The Automag is an archaic gun in the grand scheme of modern paintball guns (The Autococker is too but they didn't get reputation for being blenders) and its amazing (to me) that AGD even is still around.

Those of us who expect one day for AGD to rise to at least "common knowledge" status or even approach "top of the pile" status need a serious reality check. For two reasons, if absolutely no others; First AGD hasn't produced a new gun in 10 years, easily, no question and second, price. For what you get, a mechanical gun, for the price, $450+, you're paying a lot for not that much of a gun. Even the greenest kid with her first slave-wage job knows something of cost vs. benefits and you can get a lot more bang for your buck if you go elsewhere.

It isn't about competing, the competition's already happend. No matter how you stack the chips the Automag loses. The valve's fast, other guns are easier to shoot fast. Level X doesn't chop paint, most guns come with an ACE stock and won't chop either. Automags are easy to maintain, name a single gun that requires more than just whiping down the bolt, passing a swab through the reciever, and putting oil through the ASA as regular maintinance that isn't a blowback semi. Automags never break, neither does any other gun that's owned by someone with half a brain or someone who knows better than to continually tinker with it. Spyders/Ions/Angels/Autocockers are always breaking, strange how such "flakey" guns haven't given issue to me. If anything the only ongoing problems I've had with any guns I've owned were related to either my neglegence/incompitence/inexperience or I bought them used and they basically came that way. I've broken my guns before, and it's always been because I've done something that I either didn't know better about or forgot/neglected to consider. I have yet to have a gun which has been entirely in my ownership go down for an inexplicable reason, or a reason period that I couldn't track back to something I did.

PTP isn't the bad guy, DW isn't the bad guy, SP isn't even the bad guy, nor are any other companies that are/were around, this all lands squarely on AGD, because in the end, AGD is it's own worst enemy. No use looking for a scape goat, just owning up and dealing with it.

Does any of it change that the Mag is a gun worthy of the name? No, but everyone needs to realise that AGD's community is tiny and the voice it carries is even smaller.

[rabidchihauhau]

Don't completely blame AGD or Tom either.

In many respects, Tom is a victim of the 'industry' like so many others who are no longer really in it.

Tom wanted to do things "the right way". He gave up many opportunities for taking AGD big time - gaining money AND influence - for the sake of trying to remain the 'good' guy. There are thousands of people who tilt at windmills in the name of a good cause. The only ones who get any real recognition are the ones who knock over the windmill - and never the ones who try and try and try until it does them in.

Tom fought the increase in firepower. Tom fought the encroachment of the 'gangsta' lifestyle into tournament ball. Tom, over the years, lent money and support to others who he felt were travelling in the same direction he was trying to go.

The 'marginilizing' of the 'mag was due, in large part, to politics, not to bad business decisions.

***

Those who presume to know what goes on behind the scenes at PTP and/or AGD ought to just keep their yaps shut. 'One of the gals' from PTP did not go to AGD. (There's no gals available to go anywhere.) PTP made most of their decisions regarding products for mags based on a licensing arrangment with AGD; PTP NEVER went anywhere with a product without obtaining an ok from Tom. Quite frequently, PTP worked with AGD to bring a product to market and then shared that product with AGD. No because AGD had to, but because PTP was trying to 'do business the right way'. It killed us watching companies who had no relationship with AGD bring CRAP to market, get embraced by the mag loving world, make their bucks and then disappear. Guess where half the non-workers with the crappy aftermarket, no-specs BS parts ended up getting worked on - for free? PTP.

***

I'd be very happy if everyone who hasn't been running a paintball company since at least 1990 just stfu - you can't possibly know enough to comment appropriately, you can't have any appreciation for the things that were going on behind the scenes, and trying to analyze it from afar is just going to look silly.

[Lohman446]

Tom has a privately owned company that holds several patents that likely hinder what anyone does with the products that company produced.

We are all forgetting something - that company is privately owned. This is not a publically traded corporation that a board of directors or the investors are going to have TK's head if he doesn't go for the largest profit he can. The man is in a place in life where he can afford (I assume) to do what he wants to do and does it. He is at a place where he has evaluated and accepted his current risk to reward ratio as far as product liability and seems uncomfortable taking on more risk, even if it involves more reward. Well I am certain, from his own words, he would like to see some things for that company he does not seem to aggressively pursue it, or take steps that would cause him more risk.

The question is, if you were in a position in life that you were doing what you loved would you risk it for paintball players as a whole? The paintball market sucks, in general, about what they expect, and what they return - ask one of the large manufacturers who also makes things for motocross what customer tends to be less demanding and politer to them. I'm sorry, but those who do things for the love of the game as a whole are being replaced by those who do things because it is a smart business move. A lot of you wanted big business, and big paintball. Did you honestly expect it would be the same old game?

One can easily see where TK does not push the issue. If his interest has wained from paintball to something else, he may not want to risk anything for the sport that is not at all like the sport he started out risking everything for. Perhaps he keeps AGD for reasons we do not know, perhaps he intends to come back at some point and do something for paintball. I don't disagree with a wait and see attitude, if thats what TK wants. As has been stated, unless I am willing to make a substantial investment - and even then likely work within TKs rules, it really doesn't matter what I think of what AGD is doing.

[slade]

If the latter, then fine. You did your best, and proved that you can develop a far supereor 3-way. Let Deadlywind at it. You said its not fair that you dont get the money for patents you worked so hard for. Understandable. I agree with you. But dont be an *** and pull the whole 'If I go down your going with me' deal. Bad ethics IMHO.
...or, why not licence the pneuframe to DW? say they can produce it if you get a percentage of the profits. if they do produce it, you get money off of your patent without doing much... if not, no loss.

[11 Bravo]

The title of this thread should have been "The AGD Choke"

And to those that say we dont have a right to complain about the route that AGD has taken.
Sure we do. AGD asked for our support and to spend money on there products, and we did.
Complaining about AGD is no different then complaining about your local pro sports team. I am sure you do that, and I am sure we all have more invested in AGD than we do in the sports team.

[11 Bravo]

I would also like to say that a wait and see attitude is fine for a little while, but if they take too long AGD will be a memory of the good ole days. And we will be stuck with a bunch of large paper weights.
It wouldnt take a lot of effort to come up with an inexpensive, fast trigger frame that can compete. They already have everything else that they need: great valve, bolt, and ule body.

Why can Kingman and Tippmann have eframes but AGD cant. And dont tell me that its because someone picked on AGD but they didnt pick on Kingman or Tippmann, thats BS.

[Maghog]

But as long as there are parts kits for the upkeep, why will they become paperweights? What I don't understand is this constant recurring statement that AGD isn't keeping up with the times, or that they haven't brought out a new gun in ten years. The cocker is still the cocker after all these years isn't it?
The mag was and still is an incredible design. It was AHEAD of its time when it came out, and now others are just catching up. The support (or lack there of) it received over the years is what ruined it. The myth that mags chop is just that, a myth, but it stuck and it turned people away. This rumor was maliciously spread by store owners who wanted to sell cocker parts. It's just not true. If a mag is set up properly(mine is still without level 10)it doesn't chop any more than a cocker does. A knowledgable airsmith can attest to that just like he can show you how a well timed cocker can sing.
The advertising shortcomings of AGD may be a factor in their deteriorated image, but the fact remains that the mag's construction is the best there is, and by upgrading the concept with level 10,RT, and ULE, it became even better.
These days the name is what counts, and AGD's name has long been tarnished. It's very hard to rid yourself of a bad reputation, even if you have a good product. So if all AGD is left with is a loyal following of fans, then so be it. We have to accept that. Like I said, as long as I can keep fresh o-rings and bolts in my mag, I see no reason to put it on a stack of paper.
Dan@Triggernomics

[BigEvil]

Food for thought.... maybe mags were made TOO well. 10 years later, and they still work like the day you bought it. Why buy something new?

[RRfireblade]

For Alpha,

Just to stay short and sweet....

The P Frame effectively has to be an all new frame, the cost to re-mill and re-finsh existing frames not the mention that demensions and other factors may not be ideal would far out way the cost of manufacturing a new frame from scratch. That catch is in the numbers required to start production. And this is not to be condisending but , I realise you may not understand the difference in costs between dremeling something in your garage and setting up a CNC mill to do a one off or 'one at a time' custom job.

In additiion, and I suppose if you haven't shot a real Pnuemag this might also be hard to understand but....you simply can't use all off the shelf parts. MY version of the frame is leagues beyond the DIY'ers in terms of performance. You just don't get that with stock switches no matter where you buying them from...it's just that simple.

Look at this vid...this it at or beyond electro performance. The DIYer's aren't even in the ballpark of this performance...with all do respect.

Trigger Sesitivity (http://premium1.uploadit.org/rrfireblade/Paintball/PnueMag1.WMV)

And the last thing I'll say on the subject is:

DW had/has the opportinuty to team up on this project and declined. (I don't know what the specifics were) and to my knowledge AGD has had zero interest in pursuing a PTP/AGD co-op effort up till now. So that's where we are today.

Jay. :)

[WARPED1]

The cocker is still the cocker after all these years isn't it?

No. They always change the milling(not really a big deal) They turned it into an Egun. They recently removed the cocking rod, externaly anyway. True, no major changes, but they changed with the times. When people started hating on slider frames, WGP introduced the hinge frame.
There's something some of the AO faithful refuse to grasp. That paintball is an industry, a business. All companies care about is the bottom line. If you listen to everything your customers say, your business will fail.

Food for thought.... maybe mags were made TOO well. 10 years later, and they still work like the day you bought it. Why buy something new?

15 years. The mag came out in 1990. $450+ for what we now call a classic mag. :)

[Maghog]

[QUOTE=WARPED1]They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?

[WARPED1]

[QUOTE=WARPED1]They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?
True that! Remember, I'm not slamming mags at all. But AGD did too little too late.

[slade]

They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?
an ugly, heavy out of production e-frame with a huge battery pack? and HES.

[Maghog]

And I would argue that AGD did more than enough to make an amazing piece of equipment right from the start. There was never any lack of ingenuity on their part. If so, then I missed something.
The subject here is PTP abandoning AGD though, and that is where it should stay. If I'm correct, PTP is the one that had the ORIGINAL design for the E-Mag, so it should suffice to say that they've given the mag design plenty of interest. PTP needs to take care of themselves, and if it's not economically feasable to supply a couple hundred mag fanatics with a pneu frame, then it's our loss. But it would be unfair for us to be mad at them for it.

[11 Bravo]

[QUOTE=WARPED1]They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?

Its a good Eframe but the software is out dated and they wont upgrade it and they complain when someone does.
The Predator board will show how good it is, but since AGD is not pushing Emags anymore it wont do much for AGDs rep. People will just say wow AGD should have done that and maybe they would have sold more Emags.

[11 Bravo]

I am not complaining about Automags, I love them and am getting more. I am complaining about the company. No- mags are not outdated but if they dont keep improving them and promoting them they will be.

Emags are not Ugly :cry: whoever said that. They are my favorite mag.

[WARPED1]

No complaints herte either. Except the Emag is ugly, only because of the battery pack. The body you can take care of, slugs DW etc. What ever happened to the slug? One of the best ideas AGD had, and its just *POOF* gone!

[slade]

The body you can take care of, slugs DW etc. What ever happened to the slug? One of the best ideas AGD had, and its just *POOF* gone!
my guess is, slugs just didnt sell well. not many people would mill or do anything to them.

[mobsterboy]

HOLY CRAP JAY!!!! pst...how much to.uhh. sell me a frame like that...strictly on the DL of course. Whats say we get a Pneusframe black market going? That is crazy

[Alpha]

For Alpha,

Just to stay short and sweet....

The P Frame effectively has to be an all new frame, the cost to re-mill and re-finsh existing frames not the mention that demensions and other factors may not be ideal would far out way the cost of manufacturing a new frame from scratch. That catch is in the numbers required to start production. And this is not to be condisending but , I realise you may not understand the difference in costs between dremeling something in your garage and setting up a CNC mill to do a one off or 'one at a time' custom job.

In additiion, and I suppose if you haven't shot a real Pnuemag this might also be hard to understand but....you simply can't use all off the shelf parts. MY version of the frame is leagues beyond the DIY'ers in terms of performance. You just don't get that with stock switches no matter where you buying them from...it's just that simple.

Look at this vid...this it at or beyond electro performance. The DIYer's aren't even in the ballpark of this performance...with all do respect.

Trigger Sesitivity (http://premium1.uploadit.org/rrfireblade/Paintball/PnueMag1.WMV)

And the last thing I'll say on the subject is:

DW had/has the opportinuty to team up on this project and declined. (I don't know what the specifics were) and to my knowledge AGD has had zero interest in pursuing a PTP/AGD co-op effort up till now. So that's where we are today.

Jay. :)

Yeah, I completely understand that your 3-way switch was custom made. I've seen the videos, its stupid fast. I still think that there are way too many alternative options for PTP to just give up on it, and I really dont think there is an excuse for pulling the whole "Why shouldnt PTP get money from the patent they legally own" bit, when DW was just steps away from mass production.

Like Slade said, they should license it out to DW or something. The way I understand it is that there was a battle over the patent. DW filed for one (that PTP had pending for years), and PTP jumped on them.

What I dont understand is that PTP spent all that time and money over it, just to sit on their hands.

What I really dont get is that PTP supposedly had the patent since something like 2001 (or before), and it took them until 2004 to develop a working prototype. Deadlywind builds one in 6 months?

[GT]

1) Well, the quote you used to show that the EMag software is dead basically spells out why it had to die. How can you read that and then turn right around and ***** at Jay because it didn't happen? You pretty much know who killed that project, and they didn't work for PTP, nor was their name Jay.

2) PTP knows just as well as anyone else does that the project can't be done to meet your price expectations unless they make a whole crap load of them, AND sell them all. Regardless of how vocal the guys wanting this to happen are, they need to realize that there just aren't that many of them. Sure, there were 200+ "yes" votes on that poll, but I would be ridiculously surprised if more than 20% of them actually bought one at the projected price point. Cut that number in half at least if the final retail price is over the initial estimate. It just isn't profitable to build 500 of them, and then sell 30. And if you only build 30, they will cost $400 a pop. There really isn't a way to make them profitable right now, which is very likely why PTP is sitting on their hands. BUT, since they don't want to loose their collective asses on a dubious project, they are the bad guy who crushed poor DW with an SP'esce patent, and then did nothing with it. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So, if you've got to take a hosing, better that it be a PR black eye than a financial kick to jewel sack, if you catch my meaning.




1. You and I, and someother maggers, know this. My beef is don't come out of the gates as the holly one for mags. You know dam well AGD doesnt like, so dont post that you are going to build it.

2. This is straight rank BS. Dont tell me that you can't make a frame profitible in a mag as well as all other platforms. I love when folks on AO scream and shout about how it is to make a product. I am not saying its easy but come on...


PTP thinks that you Mag guys aren't worth the trouble, and Jay went to the mats for you all. This is how you thank him.

Did you miss that in my OP? I know dam well PTP doesn't give dam. What completly pisses me of is when a PTP rep jumps in here to use AO has a marketing test bed. I know ,as well as the few old memebers who lurk here, that PTP has no intention of making mag products. SO don't post your R&D, period!!!

[Automaggot68]

1. You and I, and someother maggers, know this. My beef is don't come out of the gates as the holly one for mags. You know dam well AGD doesnt like, so dont post that you are going to build it.

2. This is straight rank BS. Dont tell me that you can't make a frame profitible in a mag as well as all other platforms. I love when folks on AO scream and shout about how it is to make a product. I am not saying its easy but come on...



Did you miss that in my OP? I know dam well PTP doesn't give dam. What completly pisses me of is when a PTP rep jumps in here to use AO has a marketing test bed. I know ,as well as the few old memebers who lurk here, that PTP has no intention of making mag products. SO don't post your R&D, period!!!



http://www.weaselcircus.com/funnypics/chillpill.jpg

[GT]

Well....
In regards to PTP's support for the Mag , it has always been directly related to the support they have recieved from AGD and from the Mag buying public. The sad truth is that the Mag as a whole has been and is basically all but dead. It is no longer a viable product and has not been for quite some time. Its existstance is based solely on grass roots word of mouth and this paintball forum (without which none of the other smaller forum spin offs would have ever seen the the light of day).


Now we are getting somewhere. Lets start with PTP's version of the Emag. There are countless post regarding QC/tollerence issues associated with the micro E. Is it reasonible for AGD to pick up the mess after PTP?


If the sad truth is that mag's are not profitible why does a PTP continually wave the carrot only to a. eat it up or b. take it away completely?



The 'few' people here on AO making Mag products, most of which are starting with stock AGD parts in the first place and simply re-mill and/or simply re-annodize them , do NOT have to make the huge investments in raw product , production , design , development and manufacturing...would also not last a single day in this business if thier whole income depended on Mag sales.

First,
I dont know very many AO dealers who use AGD stock to make thier parts, with escpetion to rails. All of the grip frames are new cuts as well as feed tubes, triggers, etc. Who using AGDs old stock for thier new products?

Wait a sec, I thought PTP made other things than mag parts? Infact right now they dont make a dam thing for a mag. Where does thier whole income rest on mag parts? The R&D on two two projects are complete. what is the hold up getting them to market?


My point: Don't post what you are doing becuase we know, and you, dam well that it is not going to happen


gt
-go 'stros

[RRfireblade]

Yeah, I completely understand that your 3-way switch was custom made. I've seen the videos, its stupid fast. I still think that there are way too many alternative options for PTP to just give up on it, and I really dont think there is an excuse for pulling the whole "Why shouldnt PTP get money from the patent they legally own" bit, when DW was just steps away from mass production.

Like Slade said, they should license it out to DW or something. The way I understand it is that there was a battle over the patent. DW filed for one (that PTP had pending for years), and PTP jumped on them.

What I dont understand is that PTP spent all that time and money over it, just to sit on their hands.

What I really dont get is that PTP supposedly had the patent since something like 2001 (or before), and it took them until 2004 to develop a working prototype. Deadlywind builds one in 6 months?


A) PTP hasn't given up on it yet and from what I understand DW was NOT ready for mass production but only ready to have someone else take it from there , AGD at the time who eventually backed out.
B) DW had the option to license it if they chose to do so. There was no Patent battle at all, DW claims that they don't infringe and claim to have a seperate valid patent application.
C) The PTP Patent was filed in 2000 but USPTO did not grant it till the granted date 4+ yrs later.
D) I agree 100 million percent. PTP should had this thing going 4 years ago.

[RRfireblade]

Now we are getting somewhere. Lets start with PTP's version of the Emag. There are countless post regarding QC/tollerence issues associated with the micro E. Is it reasonible for AGD to pick up the mess after PTP?


If the sad truth is that mag's are not profitible why does a PTP continually wave the carrot only to a. eat it up or b. take it away completely?




First,
I dont know very many AO dealers who use AGD stock to make thier parts, with escpetion to rails. All of the grip frames are new cuts as well as feed tubes, triggers, etc. Who using AGDs old stock for thier new products?

Wait a sec, I thought PTP made other things than mag parts? Infact right now they dont make a dam thing for a mag. Where does thier whole income rest on mag parts? The R&D on two two projects are complete. what is the hold up getting them to market?


My point: Don't post what you are doing becuase we know, and you, dam well that it is not going to happen


gt
-go 'stros

A) They all originally started out using stock AGD parts.Still doesn't change the fact that none of them will make a dent in annual sales worthy of dedicated /primary full time Mag part production.

B) Never said PTPs current income has anything to do with Mag parts , on the contrary I said the Mag market has not been near large enought to warrant mag part production...been that way for years now.

C) The 'problem' with PTP mags has been blown WAY out of proportion on this board in particualar. I won't say that they are perfect (not all AGDs are either, trust me) but the vast majority, a very high percentage relative to the production numbers, function flawlessly and with out incident. I have 1000's of very satified and return customers of PTPs products going back almost 20 years. Not to mention PTPs has always handled it own warranty, not AGD. In fact I have warrantied 100's of AGD products myself at PTP with no cost to AGD or the customer. Don't believe the hype, or in this case the anti hype.

D) As I had previously stated, I agree PTP should have had this product out years ago. Since the day I started at PTP a pushed for it but there was little more I could do.It may be too little too late by now but as far as I know, it's not dead yet.

E) And TRUST ME....you won't hear a damn proto sneak peak from me...for anyone...about anything...from any company I do work for EVER AGAIN. :)

[11 Bravo]

You all should be mad at AGD for not getting involved in something like this, not at PTP for deciding that its not profitable to do on there own. If AGD was on board they could sell new markers with this frame and also sell it as an upgrade. As it stands now PTP would have to reach the automag owners that already exist and that have for the most part already upgraded their guns. I can see where they would think that its not going to be worth it.
AGD doesnt want anyone to upgrade their software or make new boards and they dont want to support someone elses mag frames. What they hell are they thinking? I sure hope they are working on something on their own.

We should also be thankfull to RRfireblade and everyone else on this forum that works on mag upgrades and support. (logic, luke, tuna, rouge, chris/devil, tag). If it wasnt for those guys we would be in worse shape.

[rkjunior303]

E) And TRUST ME....you won't hear a damn proto sneak peak from me...for anyone...about anything...from any company I do work for EVER AGAIN. :)

most people don't realize how LUCKY they were to even get a glimpse of what COULD HAVE been coming..

[behemoth]

most people don't realize how LUCKY they were to even get a glimpse of what COULD HAVE been coming..

I know!

I wanna see the stuff that Jay's done over the years that he hasnt shown (the things that never made it to market)

[rkjunior303]

I'm just sick of all the WHINING.

I mean, seriously. PTP is a company. Companies like to make money. So what do they do? They pursue projects that will give them the highest ratio of revenue gained to money spent..

Suck it up an deal with it.

(and yes, I would like to see that too, Behemoth)

[CoolHand]

2. This is straight rank BS. Dont tell me that you can't make a frame profitible in a mag as well as all other platforms. I love when folks on AO scream and shout about how it is to make a product. I am not saying its easy but come on.............

Alright, you show me how many products you've designed, brought to market, and made money on, and I will call your opinion on the matter valid. Until then, you might at least consider the word of someone who has, before you write it off as BS.

I know my production costs, and I know my market. If I could have done something, and made it profitable, you would have seen something from me on this front long ago. My production costs are not going to be much (if any) higher than PTP's at the low production numbers that the Mag version will have to be made in.

Just because you can make money on the blow-back version (which hasn't been seen yet either, I might add), does not mean you can do the same with the Mag version, because there are about 7-10 orders of magnitude more JABB's out there.

[GT]

We should also be thankfull to RRfireblade and everyone else on this forum that works on mag upgrades and support. (logic, luke, tuna, rouge, chris/devil, tag). If it wasnt for those guys we would be in worse shape.

Don't dare put PTP in the same light as logic, luke, tuna, rouge, chris/devil, and tag. These guys are doing it, every day for the mag guys. My point PTP really doesnt give a dam about agd, and the prove it, time and time again. The folks listed about put thier *** on line consitantly and produce some amazing products.



A) They all originally started out using stock AGD parts.Still doesn't change the fact that none of them will make a dent in annual sales worthy of dedicated /primary full time Mag part production.


My point which you have illastrated over and over, why bother with mag R&D when you know you won't produce a single unit?


most people don't realize how LUCKY they were to even get a glimpse of what COULD HAVE been coming..

So I can tell a kid at the field how cool mags are and instead of SHOWING a cool product to them, I tell them the URL where they can DL the video? :rofl: "Hey man, mags rule just check out the cool vid for a product that is never coming to market." :wow:


Alright, you show me how many products you've designed, brought to market, and made money on, and I will call your opinion on the matter valid. Until then, you might at least consider the word of someone who has, before you write it off as BS.

I really hate this level of argument. Usually it signals the loss of any compatite thought. I will be completely honest, I have worked on the R&D side in several industries for small companies, that develop products for limited market shares. Most of the product I have worked on is towards the end of product development. I am not at liberity to say who I worked for or what product lines I worked on. I am not a representitive for any of those compaines or products and thus if I worked for any PB company, I never did, you would not hear a peep from me about the company I worked for nor the product. Employees can routinly destroy a companies name and the sucess of a product by posting something silly on a message board.

Besides,
It is good buisness to seperate my personal opinion from the buisness operation. I wouldn't want people to not buy my product because I think your a lammer, for example ;) .


lastly,
I am not talking about RR I am talking about PTP. If they know the resources are not availible then don't develop the products. Or if you do the R&D don't show the whole world of somehting you know won't happen.

[rkjunior303]

Do I dare ask, what has AGD done for PTP?

[Automaggot68]

Do I dare ask, what has AGD done for PTP?

No, becuase what do you know Rob?
Nothing we can say is going to deter these guys from attacking jay or PTP.
The best part about it, is that the argument would be completely different if Jay wasn't around [on the forums].
Jay gets this flak because he's the 'face' of PTP on AO, and its utterly rediculous that he gets the crap for AO's victim complex.

For as long as I've known Jay, he's alays been more than considerate, patient, and courteous to aLL AO members.

[p_aint_fun]

Well since they deleted the pneumag thread in the Dealer's forum, I am still wondering if anyone has taken the time to contact PTP by phone or e-mail? If so, what answer did you get if any? I really get tired of reading posts about PTP or Jay or what's happening with the project from people that don't actually take the time to try to find out what is happening from the company directly. I mean how hard is it to pick up the phone and call them? Or send an e-mail? More time spent showing the company some interest in a potential product and less time spent *****ing is a good thing IMO. Take this how you like it.

[Automaggot68]

Well since they deleted the pneumag thread in the Dealer's forum, I am still wondering if anyone has taken the time to contact PTP by phone or e-mail? If so, what answer did you get if any? I really get tired of reading posts about PTP or Jay or what's happening with the project from people that don't actually take the time to try to find out what is happening from the company directly. I mean how hard is it to pick up the phone and call them? Or send an e-mail? More time spent showing the company some interest in a potential product and less time spent *****ing is a good thing IMO. Take this how you like it.


And This will do what again?

[p_aint_fun]

And This will do what again?

Give PTP a reason to build the darn thing. Companies don't generally produce goods if they don't think anyone will buy them. Basic supply and demand.

[Lohman446]

Considering having seen things on this board before, and seeing how much flak others have gotten when trying to do things for mag users I would not design anything over $100 for a mag without a large preorder and a signed acknowledgement from everyone involved about the timeline. This would be a hassle, do you really blame PTP for not wanting any part of it at this point?

[rabidchihauhau]

My point which you have illastrated over and over, why bother with mag R&D when you know you won't produce a single unit?

Well, Mr. Genius, has it ever occurred to you that the technology in the P frame might have application elsewhere? Has it occurred to you that maybe the dollars coming from those other applications are worth a lot more than a couple of hundred happy mag users?

Obviously not.

Go take a look at the patents. Then put on your imagination hat, do a quick survey of the industry and then ask yourself if there's a bigger profit margin from manufacturing something or fom licensing...

[Bulldog]

Well, Mr. Genius, has it ever occurred to you that the technology in the P frame might have application elsewhere? Has it occurred to you that maybe the dollars coming from those other applications are worth a lot more than a couple of hundred happy mag users?

Obviously not.

Go take a look at the patents. Then put on your imagination hat, do a quick survey of the industry and then ask yourself if there's a bigger profit margin from manufacturing something or fom licensing...

I think GT already answered this one, Mr. Genius.



If the sad truth is that mag's are not profitible why does a PTP continually wave the carrot only to a. eat it up or b. take it away completely?

My point: Don't post what you are doing becuase we know, and you, dam well that it is not going to happen

gt
-go 'stros

[Automaggot68]

Give PTP a reason to build the darn thing. Companies don't generally produce goods if they don't think anyone will buy them. Basic supply and demand.

And hey, guess what?
There isn't a big enough demand for them.
This has happenbed before PTP.

People on here talk and talk and talk.
And they never muster up the money when it's time to get to business.

"If i made this, would you buy it?'
'YEAH!'

'Hey, i made it. Wheres the money?'
'Uhm.."

[RRfireblade]

My turn to ask questions.....

Who waived a carrot and took it away?

Who said it's not still planned for release?

What if I did jump the gun on the pre-release in an effort to push the Mag version of the project along and hopefully show that enough interests exists to warrant further attention?

Who said PTP isn't just as unhappy about the amount of time this thing has dragged on?

Ever dawn on anybody that perhaps 'other' things outside of PTPs control right now may have delayed it?

Why is it that whenever people don't get what they want ASAP they assume it's because the people they want it from are snuffing them?

If you don't get what you want for Xmas does that mean that Santa or your Parents hate you? Maybe they tried thier best and things just didn't go as well as they liked?

Maybe the world isn't perfect regardless of good poeple trying their best to do the right thing?

Maybe the Dealer thread is gone (along with 1000+ other posts and threads of mine, btw) because the person who started it in honest, good faith and in his own good name is tired of being caught in the middle of this whole F N thing when he has NO CONTROL WHAT SO EVER on having things go the way he would like them too and is tired of getting slammed over and over again and at the same time having his mag loyalty questioned for only doing everything in his power to promote and support the Automag both in business and in his personal life not to mention giving away tons of free Mag stuff all over the place including this Forum on nearly a daily basis?

Maybe periods are a good thing? ;)

Maybe the Mag community 'is' bettter off with one less aftermarker parts supplier with an honest Mag interest, not to mention one that was one of , if not 'the' first and largest Mag parts supplier in the history of the the Mag and without whom the Mag may not have even survived this long and likely not in it's current form?

Maybe I should stop coming to this Forum all together........?

[nicad]

Well, Mr. Genius, has it ever occurred to you that the technology in the P frame might have application elsewhere? Has it occurred to you that maybe the dollars coming from those other applications are worth a lot more than a couple of hundred happy mag users?

Obviously not.

Go take a look at the patents. Then put on your imagination hat, do a quick survey of the industry and then ask yourself if there's a bigger profit margin from manufacturing something or fom licensing...

Chihauhau- I agree on the licensing vs. producing.
BTW- Which patent #(s) have the claims covering P frame pneumatic triggers?

[rkjunior303]

Maybe the Dealer thread is gone (along with 1000+ other posts and threads of mine, btw) because the person who started it in honest, good faith and in his own good name is tired of being caught in the middle of this whole F N thing when he has NO CONTROL WHAT SO EVER on having things go the way he would like them too and is tired of getting slammed over and over again and at the same time having his mag loyalty questioned for only doing everything in his power to promote and support the Automag both in business and in his personal life not to mention giving away tons of free Mag stuff all over the place including this Forum on nearly a daily basis?


Wow, that's some sentence ;)

[behemoth]

Wow, that's some sentence ;)

mhmm.

Jay, just know some people out here Think that this is a bunch of BS, and you should be exhonorated for what you've done, not insulted.

that being said, those people would LOVE to see all the neat little things that you've created and never marketed for one reason or another...

:D

[rkjunior303]

mhmm.

Jay, just know some people out here Think that this is a bunch of BS, and you should be exhonorated for what you've done, not insulted.

that being said, those people would LOVE to see all the neat little things that you've created and never marketed for one reason or another...

:D

QFT

[Lohman446]

mhmm.

Jay, just know some people out here Think that this is a bunch of BS, and you should be exhonorated for what you've done, not insulted.

that being said, those people would LOVE to see all the neat little things that you've created and never marketed for one reason or another...

:D

No, we should crucify him for trying to keep us informed rather than simply stating no comment. :rolleyes: Jay has never, in my opinion, done anything but good for this forum, his intentions have always been in the mag users interest and limited by his place and authority. Its too bad noone seems to understand that he tried for us, that he tried despite those who might pay him and question his motivations. Too bad really that we would do such a thing to him. I guess its part of the desperation of this forum...

[GT]

Maybe the Dealer thread is gone (along with 1000+ other posts and threads of mine, btw) because the person who started it in honest, good faith and in his own


I smell the Jim Drew WAS cover up...



good name is tired of being caught in the middle of this whole F N thing when he has NO CONTROL WHAT SO EVER on having things go the way he would like them too and is tired of getting slammed over and over again and at the same time having his mag loyalty

I am not questioning you, rather PTP. Don't give me the sob story: if you knew it (emag software or frame) would never be produced why bother?

[CoolHand]

I smell the Jim Drew WAS cover up...

Yeah, that's it, of course. You told him to build them by the thousands, or STFU and go away.

So, he's S'ingTFU, and going away. Happy now?





I am not questioning you, rather PTP. Don't give me the sob story: if you knew it (emag software or frame) would never be produced why bother?

OK, look dumb ***, we have all tried to lay it out before you in a polite and concise manner so that you could see that you are mistaken.

This has not worked.

What to do then....... Hrmmm...... OK, I'm putting on my PBNation hat, and regressing a few years here, bear with me.

I fear your intelligence (comparable only to a rotten head of cabbage, or maybe a cooked rutabaga) is too slight to grasp this concept, so I am going to do everything I can to spell it out for you.

Ahem:

H-E D-I-D N-O-T K-N-O-W T-H-A-T I-T W-O-U-L-D N-O-T B-E P-R-O-D-U-C-E-D.

Is that clear enough? Or do I need to find an elementary school child to interpret for me (or maybe I can go find that PBN speak translator)?

I mean really, if he KNEW it would never go, why in the hell would he spend all that time on it? Riddle me that one, brain-trust.

Get it through your skull, you are being an *** over a dilemma that cannot be solved. What you are saying is "Don't say a word until it's for sale.", which is exactly what I have been doing this last year. Guess what? IT DOESN'T WORK WORTH A DAMN. Why? Because when you spring new stuff on folks, they are surprised, confused, and a little intimidated. Not wanting to look like a fool, they assume they just missed all the hype that lead up to the product, and don't ask any questions they may have. Plus, having not known it was coming, big ticket items suffer from lack of expendable cash (IE they need to save for it). It leads to lackluster performance, trust me on this one.

Those of us in this industry are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. We either speak up early, and get slammed for taking too long (by people just like you), OR we hold our tongues, and surprise everyone, only to hear "Aw man! If I had known this was coming I wouldn't have bough ________.", AND get slammed for it (by people just like you).

It's a no win deal (like oh so many things in this industry), and all you ******** jumping up and down at the first hint of blood certainly isn't helping anything.

I don't blame Jay a bit for gathering up his toys and going home, I would too if as many people had been riding my ***, and lying about what I/my company did/does/thinks/runs/eats/etc.

OK, now I'm back to me. Normally I do not find it necessary to stoop to the level of cursing/insults/etc, but in this case I felt it best to talk to the savage in his native tongue (lest he be unable to follow the conversation).

To anyone offended (except GT of course), I am sorry you had to see that, but it was necessary (like shooting your favorite rabid dog, or clubbing baby seals).

[RRfireblade]

Gosh , you don't read very I guess... Who said it'd not getting made? As far as I know it's still planned.

It's a Mag product for goodness sake, it's not like the Mags out in the market are going anywhere anytime soon, it's not like the die hard maggers are going to want it more or less today or next week. You all waited 10 years for a Mag that won't break paint and that didn't effect the number of people who bought a L10 when it came out. :)

As for the Emag software, it's done and ready to go. Why are you not crying for me, the little guy who got pressured out of releasing it for fear of legal action and other implications?

You know, the more Mag product talk, proto stuff and dreaming, the more it attracts others to this market. For all you know , my Emag softeware could be what got TAG interested in a Pred board in the first place. I had posted a ULT like on/off assembly I'd been working on and that got squashed by AGDs ULT once it hit.Thats all my time,money and R&D for naught. How 'bout some more tears for me?

Besides those, I did the Fireblades and they were only as a proto for myself originally and the Xmag clamping breaches as well and those have done very well. Then this grip frame in which I designed and built and handed off (like 3 completely different versions of I'll have you know) to those that payed me to do so and had done nothing other than messenger info as it came to me since that point. I'm not a mind reader and I don't have a crystal ball. I also don't believe it's my job to screen all information for 100% validation that pertains to this forum. I've stated hundreds of times at least , that it has all been out of my hands. I have no control over anything beyond what I have already done.

I even prefaced all my posts with 'Expected" , "Assume" and "Possibly" ....and typically added "no gaurantee". What else do you possibly need?

So you would rather have no one experiment, protoype or otherwise dream about a Mag idea if it can't be produced and sold? WTF man? Are you seriously listening to yourself? Better start a petition to get the Workshop forum shut down then. :tard: Wait, that deserves another... :tard:

And my last response to anything to do with this Frame or anything PTP btw is....

Jim Drew Cover up? What cover up? I told you "I" deleted the thread !! From now on, any info you get from PTP will come from PTP or not at all.

In summary...

Thank you and good day.

[Maggot6]

Wow, those last two posts put us all in our places.,,.. :headbang:

[SummaryJudgement]

Can you feel the love :bounce:

...btw I have no opinions on any of these matters...

[GT]

I like it when you respond that it means you have not been reading


I mean really, if he KNEW it would never go, why in the hell would he spend all that time on it? Riddle me that one, brain-trust.

So why was the emag software shelved? Hell Miscue finished his version in what 2002-2003, maybe earlier? Is it logical to think that AGD would not support ramping software, this wasnt a secret, but I digress.




I know my production costs, and I know my market. If I could have done something, and made it profitable, you would have seen something from me on this front long ago. My production costs are not going to be much (if any) higher than PTP's at the low production numbers that the Mag version will have to be made in.


So... if you knew it wasnt going to be profitible, by your example "long ago," do you think PTP did?

[neppo1345]

Wow...all I know is that a group this small and tight knit has no room for this. These are the kind of things that can crush ideas and possible improvements to HELP our slowly fading cause.

Because no matter how long it takes to come, we need something, anything to help pull in more mag users, this might be it....Good things take time people, its been how long since the last new product...4 years, (I'm new...so forgive me) but if you can wait 4 years, another few months sure as hell wont make any difference. I know everyones a bit antsy in their pantsy, but thats no reason to jump down the throat of someone trying to HELP us.

What company con truly make money off of mag parts? They're not mainstream enough...as I've said before something needs to be done...

If we can bring more and more mag users in, more products will come....more products means even more shooters,etc, etc it's a self sustaining reaction, it just needs something to get it started...who or what will be that match, I don't know...but someone needs to light it sooner or later.

and next time something like this rears its evil head...just think...

What would Tom do?

[CoolHand]

I like it when you respond that it means you have not been reading . . . .

WTH does that mean? You're gonna have to try that one again, sarcasm is only scathing when it's intelligible.




So why was the emag software shelved? Hell Miscue finished his version in what 2002-2003, maybe earlier? Is it logical to think that AGD would not support ramping software, this wasnt a secret, but I digress.

Well, for one, Miscue was doing the work for AGD (at least as far as I know, that's sure how it came across at the time), which means he tows the company mark, which was that Tom didn't want it to happen, which is fine, it's his company, it's his call. That does NOT infer that Tom/AGD would sue anyone who did. That's a bit of a stretch IMO.



So... if you knew it wasnt going to be profitible, by your example "long ago," do you think PTP did?

I don't know. PTP is like 250 times as big a company as I am, so I don't know what their Go/NoGo marks are, nor do I know what production run size they were shooting for.

Like I said, I know MY production costs, and I could not make it work with my batch sizes and the customer's preconceived price point.

Whether they would have come to the same conclusion, I can only guess at (which I already have).

Regardless of their intent for the Mag version, the fact still remains that the technology is easily ported to several platforms (in fact IIRC the Mag version was an afterthought). Even if you had a good incling that you couldn't make it work, why not go ahead and make sure? I mean, it would be stupid to simply pass on a questionable project with no research at all, simply because you think it might not go. That's writing off possible profit, for no reason, which is exceedingly stupid in the business world.

I know you are disappointed that it may never happen, but seriously, your "Do it or STFU" stance is not more than pointless lashing out (and doing so in a very juvenile way).

It's tantamount to a child throwing a fit because they didn't get what they wanted for Christmas. It's very immature, and pointless to boot.

So, I will answer with my own, slightly less juvenile stance ----> "Get over it and STFU."

That is all.

[Alpha]

Why cant wee be friends, why cant we be friends.... :cheers:

[Automaggot68]

Why cant wee be friends, why cant we be friends.... :cheers:


Because it will never be good enough for some of us.

[slade]

Because it will never be good enough for some of us.
:(



<3


*insert mango smiley here*

[11 Bravo]

Too bad really that we would do such a thing to him. I guess its part of the desperation of this forum...

Holy cow I agree with you. (fell out of my chair) :eek:

It is like we are the red headed step child and we are starting to show our emotional scars.
Not very pretty or inviting to any future manufacturers either.


Jay has stated over and over that this has not been canceled why dont we wait to raise hell if and when it has been canceled. If we act like this with producers we are going to end up with nothing. It will be like it was fifteen years ago- when you had to make your own parts in the garage.

[Automaggot68]

Holy cow I agree with you. (fell out of my chair) :eek:

It is like we are the red headed step child and we are starting to show our emotional scars.
Not very pretty or inviting to any future manufacturers either.



No, it's because mag shooters have a victim complex.

[rabidchihauhau]

Chihauhau- I agree on the licensing vs. producing.
BTW- Which patent #(s) have the claims covering P frame pneumatic triggers?

They're readily available at uspto.gov. Public disclosure and all...

...and

given ALLLLLLLLLL of the posts in various threads on this subject and the general tone of such, I think that a lot of the disgruntlement is due to the following equation:

the technology exists
we like the technology
its not being developed for US
we can't make it ourselves
therefore
we're going to piss and moan

Like two year olds being told they can't play with matches. Waaaaaaa

[Automaggot68]

They're readily available at uspto.gov. Public disclosure and all...



Colin asked for the patents, not where to find them.
You're a knowledgable guy right?
Link him/us.

[p_aint_fun]

See this is what I was talking about... Since I posted yesterday, there have 20+ posts moaning arguing and complaining and 0 posts about actual contact with PTP with any useful info. I agree with RR about the worthlessness of the constant speculation and such. And am very sorry for all the BS he has had to endure because of these forums. I wish mag users could try something new like working together to try and get some new mag stuff released. It can be done. Anyone see the movie Serenity based on the TV show Firefly? That movie was made based almost exclusively on fan support and guerilla marketing. It can be done. My point is that venting on these forums is fine if you know that the project is dead. We don't know that because no one has bothered to find out. I humbly suggest the everyone call or e-mail PTP just to see what response everyone gets. Then we can compare responses and plan the next move, if any. The phone number is:Phone 386.437.3375
Fax 386.437.7108. The email is:sales@proteamproducts.com.
Again, sorry Jay for all the grief and thanks for all the hard work.

[Lohman446]

PTP works on projects for other companies very often - AGD, WGP, BE, etc. You want this project, your so confident it will work - get your money together and hire them to build it for you to sell.

[Automaggot68]

PTP works on projects for other companies very often - AGD, WGP, BE, etc. You want this project, your so confident it will work - get your money together and hire them to build it for you to sell.


Is there really any point to arguing with them anymore, Loh?
Its hard to make a point when the other party is just going to disregard it everytime.

[Lohman446]

Is there really any point to arguing with them anymore, Loh?
Its hard to make a point when the other party is just going to disregard it everytime.

I hear all the time about how profitable it would be to build mag parts. These same people who are saying it are not stepping up to do it, at least for the most part. PTP is a for profit company, I am sure for a large enough up front fee they would build you however many of these things you wanted and you could package and sell them. Just stand up with the money and start negotiating - it will work many times better than 100 calls from whiney mag owners (not all) that just remind them why its best to stay away from the group. Why do they not get it? And you're right, there is no point in pointing it out to them anymore...

[Automaggot68]

I hear all the time about how profitable it would be to build mag parts. These same people who are saying it are not stepping up to do it, at least for the most part. PTP is a for profit company, I am sure for a large enough up front fee they would build you however many of these things you wanted and you could package and sell them. Just stand up with the money and start negotiating - it will work many times better than 100 calls from whiney mag owners (not all) that just remind them why its best to stay away from the group. Why do they not get it? And you're right, there is no point in pointing it out to them anymore...

Let the record state that automaggot68 and Lohman have agreed.

[rkjunior303]

I hear all the time about how profitable it would be to build mag parts. These same people who are saying it are not stepping up to do it, at least for the most part. PTP is a for profit company, I am sure for a large enough up front fee they would build you however many of these things you wanted and you could package and sell them. Just stand up with the money and start negotiating - it will work many times better than 100 calls from whiney mag owners (not all) that just remind them why its best to stay away from the group. Why do they not get it? And you're right, there is no point in pointing it out to them anymore...


...it takes MONEY, though...

[Lohman446]

...it takes MONEY, though...

Well, these people are so convinced its such an obvious good business move. Go to the bank, spell out your business plan, show the vast market, the past success of aftermarket companies going into that market, the amount of interest and the historic carry through on that interest. Taking all that into consideration I'm sure they'd give you the money to invest based on there actual business and financial knowledge :rolleyes: . Or just whine and moan about it, that makes people so interested into getting into a market...

[p_aint_fun]

Let the record state that automaggot68 and Lohman have agreed... to do nothing helpful. I'm not trying to make enemies but I really don't think that you guys understand the retail environment. I have been in the retail industry for 20 years(yeah I'm old) and the point that I'm trying unsuccessfully to get across is that no harm can come from letting PTP know that there is interest in the pnuemag frame. Basis economics of supply and demand. Calling a company to inquire about their products is not "whining". And yes I have called and e-mailed them myself. I guess that makes me a whiner.

[Lohman446]

The interest has already been expressed by RRFireblade, who works at the company and has been involved long enough and at a high enough level to have some influence. They have decided it is not AT THIS TIME economically viable considering other things they have going on. He got crucified by these boards for TRYING to help and trying to keep us informed. Guys, this board has already taken one major step into burning the bridges we had.

And we have collectively (some of us) decided not to make a nuisance of ourselves to a company that holds the key to something some of you want (I personally don't care). The attacks from this board have already knocked down, or hurt, your strongest inlet into PTP and there decision making process. Kindly don't stoop to lecturing me on business practices. PTP has limited resources to develop things - are they going to work on a project for a major customer (WGP, BE, etc) who are likely financing it up front or with gaurenteed financing, or because a bunch of people from a niche market called them and expressed interest without financial backing. PTP cannot build everything at once, and I can go as far to guess as to who is more important to them. Then again, neither you nor I have inside knowledge of there workings other than what has been posted here. I state it again, one person had that, and this board, or at least some members of it, has demonized him.

[SCpoloRicker]

*kicks dead horse*

[GT]

PTP works on projects for other companies very often - AGD, WGP, BE, etc. You want this project, your so confident it will work - get your money together and hire them to build it for you to sell.


You don't get it do you? This is akin to "working" with SP.




Let the record state that automaggot68 and Lohman have agreed... to do nothing helpful. I'm not trying to make enemies but I really don't think that you guys understand the retail environment. I have been in the retail industry for 20 years(yeah I'm old) and the point that I'm trying unsuccessfully to get across is that no harm can come from letting PTP know that there is interest in the pnuemag frame. Basis economics of supply and demand. Calling a company to inquire about their products is not "whining". And yes I have called and e-mailed them myself. I guess that makes me a whiner.


:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[Lohman446]

You don't get it do you? This is akin to "working" with SP.


What, working with the company that holds the patents for what you want to do? I don't buy into the SP Evil Empire nonsense either so you're going to have to explain what you mean by that.

I have a hard time understanding the idea that those who hold the rights to intellectual property should not be compensated for its use.

[nicad]

They're readily available at uspto.gov. Public disclosure and all...


Chihauhau- Oblige me. :) Please post the patent # in which PTP claims pneumatic triggers.

[Automaggot68]

*kicks dead horse*

HEY YOU WIPE YOUR GOD DAMN FEET BEFORE YOU DO THAT.



/i'm eating an odd shaped apple
//and it's difficult to eat it
///its giving me alot of toruble, I may give it detention

[neppo1345]

Umm...I know this wont help anything...but I just got the newest issue of FaceFull today...

It's called the "patent issue...(technology, money, and the law Could you be next?)"

And inside theres a real nice write up on the issues of patents in paintball...

And the article after that is entitled "Smart Parts VS the World" It's mainly about how they decided to patent everything in sight and force companies to pay loyalties...or sue...but it may hold some relevence with this topic as well...

It'll open your eyes...I never knew that this was on such a HUGE scale

[Automaggot68]

Umm...I know this wont help anything...but I just got the newest issue of FaceFull today...

It's called the "patent issue...(technology, money, and the law Could you be next?)"

And inside theres a real nice write up on the issues of patents in paintball...

And the article after that is entitled "Smart Parts VS the World" It's mainly about how they decided to patent everything in sight and force companies to pay loyalties...or sue...but it may hold some relevence with this topic as well...

It'll open your eyes...I never knew that this was on such a HUGE scale



Welcome to a few months ago.

[neppo1345]

well...i feel like a jack***

[SCpoloRicker]

well...i feel like a jack***

Don't worry, he's always like that. ;)

/is old news, though
//DURNK! (pre-emptive)

[Automaggot68]

Don't worry, he's always like that. ;)

/is old news, though
//DURNK! (pre-emptive)


YEAH

/off my.....YOUR LAWN
//more like a patio.

[Lee]

Jay, i back you 100% for what it's worth and i'm personally tired of threads like this.

people, search is your friend, use it and quit beating on a good guy who has a gift of genius for paintball marker design and fabrication.

i've seen a small sample of his work first hand and it's brilliant. so, back off. some people would simply give up. hopefully Jay won't.

[cledford]

I've said all along that PTP was never going to do it. What pisses me off is that a company that MADE A LOT MONEY OFF OF MAGS (ask them where they got the auto-response idea GIVEN to them from) couldn't give back to the company/line-of-markers that they climbed over the back of (or rode the coat tails) to the point where they can sit back and let usable technology DIE ON THE FRIGGIN VINE because THEY CHOOSE NOT TO RUN WITH IT.

I don't know all of the ins and outs of the patent issues - but I know they could have licensed it, or thrown it into the public domain if they wanted to. Instead they've taken a "we won't agree to make it (and won't say we won't either) but no one else can either way because we hold all of the cards."

Pretty lousy for a company that has profited so handsomely from AGD back in the day.

Don't believe me? Look at the AIR-valve/automag patent and tell me what you find in it - the auto response is just the most blatant example of the companies duplicity.

Someone explain to me WHY PTP couldn't /wouldn't allow someone else to run with the idea - and please - spare me the pneumatic cocker frame crap, I haven't seen one of those come to market either.

-Calvin

[CoolHand]

Someone explain to me WHY PTP couldn't /wouldn't allow someone else to run with the idea - and please - spare me the pneumatic cocker frame crap, I haven't seen one of those come to market either.

-Calvin

But that IS the reason why. They DID license the technology out, just not to DW. It's been said over and over again, but people just don't want to hear it.

And even if they want to sit on it, why shouldn't they be able to? It's their property. If I want to burn my house down, I can, provided that I neither endanger anyone else in the process, nor try to claim insurance money against it. It's their patent, and they can do (or not do) what they please with it. That's how it works.

Stick your fingers in your ears if you like. Hell, continue to rant pointlessly if you like. In the grand scheme of things, it makes zero (0) difference to anyone actually involved.

The fact is that not one person who feels so strongly, and throws about such talk actually knows what is going on now, or what happened between DW and PTP. Not one.

Nicad knows, but has said all he's going to. Jay knows, and has said all he's going to. There is very little real information out there, yet folks continued to extrapolate new things from Nicad's comments and pass them as fact, and then outright dismiss Jay's comments when they conflict with the stuff they just made up.

It must be nice to live in a world where you just disregard anything that is inconvenient to your current line of thinking.

[kenndogg]

Someone explain to me WHY PTP couldn't /wouldn't allow someone else to run with the idea - and please - spare me the pneumatic cocker frame crap, I haven't seen one of those come to market either.

-Calvin

PTP is licensing its technology to K2/Brass Eagle. So in my opinion they are doing something with it. All it takes is money. Maybe instead of bashing Jay or PTP, you should get AGD or one of its third parties(Logic, Tunaman, RPGe, etc..) pay the licensing fee and get this frame out for the mag. Why waste time and resources on a small and dying market when you can make money elsewhere, thats what I see PTP doing.

[Lohman446]

I've said all along that PTP was never going to do it. What pisses me off is that a company that MADE A LOT MONEY OFF OF MAGS (ask them where they got the auto-response idea GIVEN to them from) couldn't give back to the company/line-of-markers that they climbed over the back of (or rode the coat tails) to the point where they can sit back and let usable technology DIE ON THE FRIGGIN VINE because THEY CHOOSE NOT TO RUN WITH IT.

I don't know all of the ins and outs of the patent issues - but I know they could have licensed it, or thrown it into the public domain if they wanted to. Instead they've taken a "we won't agree to make it (and won't say we won't either) but no one else can either way because we hold all of the cards."

Pretty lousy for a company that has profited so handsomely from AGD back in the day.

Don't believe me? Look at the AIR-valve/automag patent and tell me what you find in it - the auto response is just the most blatant example of the companies duplicity.

Someone explain to me WHY PTP couldn't /wouldn't allow someone else to run with the idea - and please - spare me the pneumatic cocker frame crap, I haven't seen one of those come to market either.

-Calvin

Did you read Jay's statements that it was offered to AGD under licensing and they did not express an interest? Or is that just simply ignored?

I would bet, for the right investment PTP and K2/BE would let you make one of these things for mags. If its such a wonderful business move, the market is so strong, and has been historically open to aftermarket innovation I suggest you go to your bank and get funding - of course, I doubt anyone with any financial experience and rought knowledge of AGD and the aftermarket in the past is going to put up enough financial backing to get you anywhere.

Its all it would take to get it to market. If things are how some people think they are you are bound to turn a profit on your investment. However, it appears those "in the know" have decided that is not likely and thus not invested. Thats business.

Sometimes in business you have to understand some things cannot be done. I would like o see a 50K pound alignment rack for ultra long wheel base vehicles (RVs) in my shop. It would allow me to serve one more need of my customer's (that a few have). However, the market does not support the money I would put into it... Sometimes "good ideas" for customers are not good ideas for business.

[rabidchihauhau]

Cledford,

the 'auto-response' was manufactured by ProLINE, not Pro-TEAM.

PTP made it on the back of AGD?

HAH

HAH

DOUBLE HAH

e-mag patent - came from pro-team and was sold to agd for FAR LESS than it could have brought if it had been sold to someone else who would have used it as a club against AGD.

PTP was asked by AGD to help with the warp feed - particularly hose research and feed adapter; PTP was the company that made the warp available for guns other than mags.

How about spacer kits? Where'd they come from?

I leave the answer as an exercise for the reader.

***

I'll share my only original paintball joke with you now:

How many tournament players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Who's gonna sponsor the lightbulb?

I'll now modify that joke to be appropriate for this forum.

How many Maggots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Who's gonna make the lightbulb, license it for nothing and give me one at a tremendous financial loss to their company, just to make me happy? No one? Then I guess we sit in the dark...

[p_aint_fun]

I have noticed that alot of the folks posting in this thread are located in Florida. I think we should just get together and drive over to PTP's office and camp out in the parking lot until they make our frames for us. :D

[phantomhitman]

Cledford,

I'll share my only original paintball joke with you now:

How many tournament players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Who's gonna sponsor the lightbulb?

I'll now modify that joke to be appropriate for this forum.

How many Maggots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Who's gonna make the lightbulb, license it for nothing and give me one at a tremendous financial loss to their company, just to make me happy? No one? Then I guess we sit in the dark...

ohh served!!! Wait did you just make fun of tourney players........



If your info is correct I learne something today. I guess I can turn my brain off for the rest of the day now!

[ZEROte]

why hasnt anyone suggested that we go after agd? this is agd's only fanbase so why doesnt gt go and make a thread saying agd give us what we want? if you get all those that *****ed and moaned here to ***** and moan in that thread than im sure someone high up from agd will say, hey maybe we can make a new gun out of this. :eek:

[p_aint_fun]

why hasnt anyone suggested that we go after agd? this is agd's only fanbase so why doesnt gt go and make a thread saying agd give us what we want? if you get all those that *****ed and moaned here to ***** and moan in that thread than im sure someone high up from agd will say, hey maybe we can make a new gun out of this. :eek:

I don't think it'll work but I can piss and moan with the best of them...so I'm in. :D

[neppo1345]

A. Pissing and moaning never gets anything done

B. Does anyone from AGD even read the threads anymore?

C. Pissing and moaning only psses people off....look how it destroyed our connection with RR

D. If it made RR feel that way, and we direct it at AGD...and someone actually still reads the threads...well...they just might not like to too much....

[phantomhitman]

A. Pissing and moaning never gets anything done
In small numbers it doesnt, get a huge group together and they cannot ignore you

B. Does anyone from AGD even read the threads anymore?
yes, yes they do

C. Pissing and moaning only psses people off....look how it destroyed our connection with RR
no, idiots "destroyed that" by trying to get greedy instead of helping others out

D. If it made RR feel that way, and we direct it at AGD...and someone actually still reads the threads...well...they just might not like to too much....
You have to help the process along, no matter how long and grueling it may be.




You have to try

[Lohman446]

You have to try

Or these message boards become a liability to AGD rather than an assett - and frankly I think they have quit being an assett and they are only here out of TKs kindness. When it becomes an annoyance it may simply cease to exist.

[neppo1345]

Yeah...of course you have to try....just not through whining and moaning....
Not be rude...but whining and crying may have gotten your parents to do things for you when you were 5-10, but these sure as hell arent your parents...

If RR were still here we might have some kind of fighting chance at making some kind of pitch from the inside...but everyone drove him away....

The only thing i could still see working are emails...not begging....yelling...b*******....or cursing but asking, inquiring whats going on with production....whats happening with the technology...please be civil...cause acting childish like everyone has been doing with this thread will get you no where with a company...

even if they dont send an email back or send one saying they dont plan on producing it, at least they know that people have an interest...now they have a reason...they'll know they SOME kind of market...as long as they can see some kind of profit will come from it...they might build it...


Or these message boards become a liability to AGD rather than an assett - and frankly I think they have quit being an assett and they are only here out of TKs kindness. When it becomes an annoyance it may simply cease to exist.

Yeah....thats exactly what i was trying to say Loh...

[phantomhitman]

Do you think ptp or fireblade, gadevil, rogue, or logic is the only thing keeping agd around? It may seem so in the forums but in th big picture the answer is no. AGD seems to have nothing new to say or post, so go talk to them. There is no way that a custom machinist (or even all of them together) could resurect agd. Maybe they are done developing, maybe they have something secret under wraps. It is quite apparent no one complained, or even took the time to make a thread without arguing asking agd what the deal is.
Here is my question, what is the complaint? No new gun, no pneumatic mech trigger, no new agd development, what exactly is the problem?

[rabidchihauhau]

Q: How many tournament players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: Who's gonna sponsor the effin lightbulb?

Q: How many amateur players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: Let's see if we can buy the pro team's used lightbulbs for cheap...

Q: How many novice players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: We need a lightbulb? No one told us we needed a lightbulb! Where's the credit card?

Q: How many rookie players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: No less than two, provided they can fit inside the lightbulb...

[SCpoloRicker]

To Infinity and Beyond!

[phantomhitman]

How many scenario guys does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
First you have to make a story as to why they are changing it, preferably something so unbelievable that it takes people to dress up or at least 400 spec ops guy to pull off, and you also change the name of the lightbulb to ultimate illuminance device. They buy inexpensive lightbulb changing equipment and try to upgrade to be just as good as high end equipment with the same features that they hate to begin with. You sneak around the lightbulb gathering parts to create the ultimate bfg2000 lighbulb changing gun. When you finally get to the lightbulb you find 2.6 million lightbulb campers ready to defend the ultimate illuinance device and will not move one single inch regardless of the 300 acres around them. Through all the sneaking, collecting, gathering, communicating, they all just charge each other 6 hours into the lightbulb excursion and everyone loses in the end. Meanwhile, SolidLightbulb secretly dug a tunnel to the lightbulb and stole it 10 minutes into the game and is sitting in his base bragging about how many people he bulbsnipered to get it and how stupid lightbulb tournaments are.

I like lightbulb arguements :clap:

[Bad_Knees]

Air Assisted Trigger thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=172350&highlight=6%2C802%2C305)

[Muzikman]

why hasnt anyone suggested that we go after agd? this is agd's only fanbase so why doesnt gt go and make a thread saying agd give us what we want? if you get all those that *****ed and moaned here to ***** and moan in that thread than im sure someone high up from agd will say, hey maybe we can make a new gun out of this. :eek:


Personally, I think this what caused a lot of problems with AGD. They did listen to the customers and then the customers left them hanging. I think if AGD-USA just stuck to what they did and did things at their own pace there would have been a lot less wasted money. There are quite a few products that AO wanted, AGD made and then AO had no interest.

[Lohman446]

Personally, I think this what caused a lot of problems with AGD. They did listen to the customers and then the customers left them hanging. I think if AGD-USA just stuck to what they did and did things at their own pace there would have been a lot less wasted money. There are quite a few products that AO wanted, AGD made and then AO had no interest.


noo... not the history of why whining doesn't work. And this was AGD producing them - think of the problems the aftermarket companies have had producing AGD products. Maybe we should just sticky a thread so people can whine about things they have no control over? The times of major manufacturers being responsive to mag users is likely over...

[nicad]

OK, so we look at the patent #6,802,305 that PTP is saying they own pneumatic triggers.
Did anyone actually READ the claims, or did they just blindly believe what was told to them?

(I paraphrased each claim-- you can find the entire thing here (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,802,305.WKU.&OS=PN/6,802,305&RS=PN/6,802,305).)

claim 1: Assisting the movement of the trigger with MAGNETS.

claim 2: claim #1 using magnets which are formed from ferromagnetic material.

claim 3: claim #1 using repelling magnets after the ball is fired.

claim 4: claim #1 using electromagnets in the place of magnets.

claim 5: Assisting the movement of the trigger with ELECTROMAGNET(S) in the trigger which can change polarity after the trigger is pulled.

claim 6: Assisting the movement of the trigger with a secondary ELECTROMAGNET infront of the trigger which can change polarity after the trigger is pulled.

claim 7: A force element behind the trigger which detects movement of the trigger and pulls the trigger for you.

claim 8: claim #7 and add a force element infront of the trigger which detects movement of the trigger and returns the trigger for you.

claim 9: claim #7 but using electromagnets.

claim 10: sensing the movement of the trigger and using solenoids to assist the movement of trigger.

claim 11: force element behind the trigger being operable to assist movement of the trigger between the resting position and the firing position.

claim 12: claim #11 using magnets.

claim 13: claim #12 using electromagnets.

claim 14: claim #13 but switching polarity of a magnet after detecting the trigger has been pulled.

claim 15: claim#11 using a solenoid.



This covers forces acting on the TRIGGER.. ie- reactive triggers (RT), and using magnets and electromagnets.

So, I ask again- what is the patent # in which PTP covers pneumatic interfaced triggers in the claims??

[TheTramp]

OKThis covers forces acting on the TRIGGER.. ie- reactive triggers (RT), and using magnets and electromagnets.

So if PTP wanted to pull a SP they could sue AGD over the RT-Pro? I thought they were going for something that helped pull the trigger, not return it quickly.

[neppo1345]

Under "Summary of Invention"

"In addition to aiding in the actuation of the trigger itself, an alternate embodiment of the invention contemplates replacing the mechanical linkage between the trigger and the cocking/firing mechanism with a pneumatic operating system. In this embodiment of the invention, rearward movement of the trigger opens a pneumatic air valve. As the pneumatic air valve is opened, air pressure is supplied to an actuating ram coupled to the cocking ram of the paintball gun. When the actuating ram is pressurized, the air pressure of the actuating ram operates the cocking/firing mechanism to cause a paintball to be fired. In this manner, the air pressure of the actuating ram causes the mechanical movement of the cocking/firing mechanism, rather than a mechanical linkage between the trigger and the cocking/firing mechanism. The use of air pressure rather than the mechanical linkage allows for a faster and less physically demanding movement by the user on the trigger. After the firing sequence has been initiated, the residual pressure within the pneumatic valve aids in returning the trigger to its pre-firing position. "

[nicad]

Under "Summary of Invention"

"In addition to aiding in the actuation of the trigger itself, an alternate embodiment of the invention contemplates replacing the mechanical linkage between the trigger and the cocking/firing mechanism with a pneumatic operating system.

....

"

..which is meaningless. Only what is covered in the CLAIMS is what makes something protected by a patent.

[Lohman446]

So if PTP wanted to pull a SP they could sue AGD over the RT-Pro? I thought they were going for something that helped pull the trigger, not return it quickly.

Or SP over magnetic triggers?

[neppo1345]

Well...thanks for the education....
so is there another patent?...because if it's only what is under claims...a fully pneumatic trigger is not patented....

[phantomhitman]

i thought shockers/nerves/ions used spring returns. However, ebaldes fall under this as a means of firing but not operating the gun.

[Lohman446]

Well...thanks for the education....
so is there another patent?...because if it's only what is under claims...a fully pneumatic trigger is not patented....

Its claimed under an alternate under summary of invention - I think that pretty well covers it. I'm not a patent attorney, I suppose you could ask one as part of the investment into looking into building these.

[neppo1345]

..which is meaningless. Only what is covered in the CLAIMS is what makes something protected by a patent.

whos right?

[Lohman446]

whos right?

Nicad likely has far more knowledge than I do here.

[nicad]

What is protected in a patent is precisely what is claimed - no more and no less.

from: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aapatentclaimsa.htm
"Claims are the parts of a patent which define the boundaries of patent protection. Patent claims are the legal basis for your patent protection."

from: http://www.patentapplications.net/faq/faq10.html
"2) the claims which set forth in legal language what is patented."

from: (long URL) (http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/37D1A5BD-75EC-4DAF-AD185F35FEAC0548/catID/2D212B35-B211-4FD4-B46D84A00C15CEBF/310/101/134/ART/)
"Patent claim or claims: These are detailed statements of exactly what your invention covers. Because the scope of your patent rights are based on what you declare in the claims, they are the most important section of the application."

and from: http://www.stor.buffalo.edu/invent_patent.shtml
"Claims are precise sentences that define the scope of patent coverage."

:)

[Muzikman]

So nicad, this raises a question I don't want to ask. ;)

[Nutsnyomowf]

This thread is making me sick to my stomach.Cant we just be thankful for the great markers we have.I mean before everyone was saying how AGD was ahead of there time and the Mags didnt need to improve because they was built right in the 1st place.Now you guys are whining over some bull5h!t.If you dont like how your Mag shoots,sell it buy a DMtoda100thpower or some other Glamorous marker if not just be happy with what you got.

[Lohman446]

http://www.benwiens.com/patents.html#patents.27]31[/url]. READING THE PATENT SUMMARY
While the patent background talks about problems with previous ideas, the summary describes the general concepts of the new invention. Compare the summary to the claims. It will soon become evident that while the claims are legalese descriptions of the invention, the summary uses more descriptive language to expand on the claims.

Indicates to me that one can claim the descriptions in the summary expand on the claims made. Don't know, I expect someone more qualified will chime in. But it seemed to me that AGD did not balk at the idea that PTPs patent was valid and they have rather extensive experience with the system.

[rabidchihauhau]

while it is true that the claims themselves are the 'heart' of a patent, the 'teachings' and the drawings and the findings and all of the other components are equally as valid, if not as popular as "the claims". Infringement cases have all been found to rest on decisions regarding all of the previously mentioned parts.

empty out your pm storage.

[RobAGD]

Sp uses 2 magnets to repel or return the trigger to forward stop point. ( with a little help from the spring of the switch ) - Shocker

Sp uses a magnet in the ion to return to battery as well, pulling on a set screw in the frame.

AGD used Magnets to return trigger to battery and for trigger signal

Eclipse uses a magent to return trigger to forward battery, and uses an optical sensor for shot acivation.


The problem is that in typical fashion someone pattened every idea they could think of for firing a paintball gun that wasnt currently being used.

Intresting to see if the Magnets in the Emag predate the patten claims.

As I recall there was previous art on that with a few people and bushmasters, intimidators, Shockers and a few others that were home grown.

-Robert

[nicad]

while it is true that the claims themselves are the 'heart' of a patent, the 'teachings' and the drawings and the findings and all of the other components are equally as valid, if not as popular as "the claims". Infringement cases have all been found to rest on decisions regarding all of the previously mentioned parts.

empty out your pm storage.

I requested a comment from my IP lawyer regarding this matter and he wrote:

"Merely talking about something in the application does not give any
protection. Only the claims give protection. In fact, after two years
the disclosure but unclaimed subject matter is considered to have been
dedicated to the public."


chihauhau- I don't use PM's on here. Please email if you need to contact me.

[11 Bravo]

How long does the patent last? There is a limit to how many years a patent can exist. Right?

[rabidchihauhau]

Your IP attorney is correct about unclaimed matter entering the public domain.

However, the question - which is only decided at court or through negotiations with another party, is: what in the summary is included in the claims and what is not.

Nicad - if you are contemplating any action regarding this IP, I would re-think that option. As your IP attorney can tell you, there are such things as 'continuations in part'.

Furthermore, these patents have the financial backing and wherewithal to deal with potential infringement and are being actively protected.

The claims in the patent went through nearly 4 years of review and refinement by the examiner, me, PTP and their IP attorney - they are not vague, they are not 'shotgun' to cover everything not covered, they were written to exploit a hole in the present art that had not been covered by any previous designs.

There is NO prior art. What you all think might be prior art are various components or similar looking concepts that either work in a different manner, do not 'really' work or are not the same thing when you take into consideration all of the other components of the design.

If you are careful with your dates, you will see that the so-called prior art is not prior.

Regardless of whatever anyone else may throw out there, regardless of any criticism of the claims writing, the teachings, the drawings and etc., issues of intellectual property have very little to do with what's on the paper and very much to do with who has the most dollars to defend their property. We've seen the nasty side of this from other companies who I will not mention. This IP comes from the other side of the fence - legitimate people and companies doing things the right way, employing patent law in the correct manner, navigating the process properly and then protecting what they have spent good money on. Attacking this IP because you can't get the product you want out of it is a mistake, plain and simple.

[rabidchihauhau]

How long does the patent last? There is a limit to how many years a patent can exist. Right?

21 years in all but special cases.

Bravo,

and everyone else interested.

Patents, once granted or abandoned, become available to the public. A relatively recent change in patent law also makes many APPLICATIONS available for viewing.

You can visit www.uspto.gov to find all of the granted patents (from 1782 or thereabouts on);

You can search all patents and many applications. (The patent applicant is allowed to request privacy until granting if they so choose, so not all applications are available)

The quickest and least effective way to search is by keyword (such as paintball), the name of an assignee (such as Smart Parts), and inventor (such as Simon), etc.

The most effective way to search for a specific patent is by number. For searching for all designs of a similar nature, by patent class. MOST paintball related patents are found in just a handful of classes (firearms and related, balls and related).

To find out how the patent office does searches, find the copy of the patent examiners manual (on the site) and or the list of classes and related classes.


manual of patent examining procedure: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/mpep.htm

manual of patent classification: http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/classification/

patent class numbers and titles: http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/classification/selectnumwithtitle.htm

to get an idea of the classes used for paintball related inventions, do a word search for "paintball"; then look under the class field. then go do a search by class - then have fun wading.

Here's class 042 (firearms) and its definitions and related subclasses: http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/classification/uspc042/defs042.htm

042/124 is a class and subclass frequently found for paintball markers.

Have fun.

[phantomhitman]

brian hurts, stop with all of this useful posting.

[rabidchihauhau]

brian hurts, stop with all of this useful posting.

You think your brain hurts now?

Check this application out.

Note a couple of things: this applicant claims the priority of three provisional applications - all dated more than one year older than his formal application - formals based on provisionals must be filed by the anniversary date of the provisional, in this case, by March 12th, 2005. His formal was filed September, 2005.

If that wasn't enough - this guy claims the entirety of facemasks.

"1. A method of using a face protector, comprising: providing a face protector including a lens and a face plate configured to protect the forehead, eyes, cheeks, jaw, chin, mouth, ears, and nose of a user without protecting substantially the remainder of the user's head; applying the face protector to the user's head; wearing the face protector during an activity; removing the face protector after the activity."

Background: "Current products on the market including, but not limited to, motorcycle helmets, snowboarding helmets, ski helmets, etc., all are meant to protect the entire head from falls or injury to the entire head and not used solely for front head and face protection. All are comprised of some type of hard material, are full-shelled helmets, are not compactable, and do not allow for efficient stowing, storage. These helmets are also heavy and are susceptible to mildew when used in wet environments and not dried or stored in dry environments (e.g., boats)."

Jeez. Either he's clueless, or this is a joke. All claims except the first one are dependant - so if the first claim is disallowed, he's out the window.

If you want to attack fallacious patents, here's the perfect one.

[phantomhitman]

Check this application out.

Note a couple of things: this applicant claims the priority of three provisional applications

you lost me already ;)
I have seen bs applications before, but does anyone have a patent for a paintball facemask? If not they guy is smart even though he is so dumb.

[rabidchihauhau]

you lost me already ;)
I have seen bs applications before, but does anyone have a patent for a paintball facemask? If not they guy is smart even though he is so dumb.


yes.

tn had one for the original vents
v-force/procaps has at least one for the quick change system

More than likely this is an application from someone who will now go and try to sue all and sundry for infringement - or, better yet, pay me and I'll abandon the application.

Probably good for a couple of 10k nuisance checks

A provision application is a relatively new thing; someone who needs protection while they are looking for a business partner would apply for one, as an example. It gives them a year's worth of patent pending status (no guarantee of getting a patent though).

If a formal application based on the provisional is filed within one year of the filing of the provisional, the 'priority' (date the patent is good from) becomes the provisional filinig date, not the year later date of the formal application.

BTW: Now that I'm no longer at pro-team, I'm free and clear to offer my IP services to all and sundry. Please note - I am not a patent attorney, nor an attorney of any kind. I have a year of law school under my belt (making more dangerous than someone who's passed the bar). I do know when to say 'call in the experts'.

If you're looking for someone to help with searches, preparing provisional applications, writing of descriptions and summaries and even suggested wording for formal claims, I'm available for a fee.

I have successsfully obtained numerous patents for myself and others; I have a good track record of finding holes in the existing patents and, perhaps the best endorsement I'll ever get for this kind of work: someone over at the whiteboard said that I was 'scummier than SP' or words to that effect.

Don't send me concepts or designs - we need to sign an NDA first, you need to then give me a sumnmary of what it is and then I'll let you know if I can work on it or not.

[nicad]

... As your IP attorney can tell you, there are such things as 'continuations in part'.



Are you inferring that there were more claims in the original filing that were split off into a divisional application because the USPTO felt that the content of the extra claims were too far out of scope to be included all in one application (#6,802,305)? Wouldn't that lend credibility to the fact that the content of those extra claims is indeed not granted coverage by patent #6,802,305?

[phantomhitman]

nicad...........go argue in pms because this is going to give me nightmares. :D I wish I could understand the process of the application process and what is and what is not allowed. :hail: I am just going to go sleep now.

[edweird]

not directed at anyone:

as stated before he dont use pm's cause its to much of a bother...

and frankly I think it is far to important to remove from the public eye.

P.S. if the tech/legal jargon hurts anyones "postcount +1" intellect might I suggest http://www.pbnation.com (no offence to the fine ppl I do know from pbn, but a kiddy pool is just that, a kiddy pool)

/ptp to come to grasp they will never put out the pneuframe
//nicad to win
///nicad to sell me the first production hAir frame
////line to form behind me

[BigEvil]

The sad part about this, is that by time all of the legal manuvering is done, and all of the legal fees payed... whomever ends up actually producing this frame will face the harsh reality that the market for this product is not vast - and, that the demand for it in what market does exist will be low.

I can't see PTP making a dime in profit off of this unless they sell MINIMUM 1000 units. (And that is probably a low estimate)

I also cant imagine anyone that hast to fight for the legal right to make this, or, pay a licencing fee, make ANY money off of anything less that 3000 units.

These numbers are off the top of my head, calling from my experience in dealing with some parts of the manufacturing industry. For example, I know for a fact that if you are looking to produce something, or even outsource the production of something, no one wants to talk to you unless your minimum run starts at 1000 units.

Can anyone in their right mind see 3000 mags with P-frames?

[11 Bravo]

I wonder how many mags are being used now? If this frame came out I am sure more Mags would be used regularly. If AGD would put it on new markers for sale I am sure sales of Mags and the frame would go up. But I have no idea what AGD sales are or how many people would upgrade their existing mags. Besides knowing AGD annual sales you would have to have an idea of how many Mags are being used and how many owners would want to upgrade. If AGD doesnt offer it on their new Mags I dont see how PTP could justify making them. It wouldnt be worth their time to do it and only sell 20 units.

I vote that they work something out with AGD - then I could see it making since.

Maybe the people wanting these frames should contact AGD and let them know how much its wanted.

[Muzikman]

In order for AGD to sell another gun that had the popularity of the Mag in the 90's it would have to be;

Blowback
Lighter than air
Shoot 90bps
Never chop or break a ball (EVER!)
Be low pressure (I mean an input of like 50psi)
Be able to get 20,000 shots off one 45/3000psi tank
Get 100,000 shots from one 9v battery
Cost $199.99
And not call it a Mag

Though that is getting off the subject again.

The hAir is a great idea, it's currently 2 years too late. AGD knows it, DW knows it and PTP knows it. I will be shocked if we actually see a gun with this "Patented" technology be successful.

[Lohman446]

In order for AGD to sell another gun that had the popularity of the Mag in the 90's it would have to be;

Blowback
Lighter than air
Shoot 90bps
Never chop or break a ball (EVER!)
Be low pressure (I mean an input of like 50psi)
Be able to get 20,000 shots off one 45/3000psi tank
Get 100,000 shots from one 9v battery
Cost $199.99
And not call it a Mag

Though that is getting off the subject again.

The hAir is a great idea, it's currently 2 years too late. AGD knows it, DW knows it and PTP knows it. I will be shocked if we actually see a gun with this "Patented" technology be successful.


Skip propane, CO2, HPA etc - there going to make it so low pressure that the movement of the ball in the HALO stack will create enough pressure to fire the marker... 15PSI input pressure... (what, atmospherice pressure is 14.7ish?)

[dahoeb]

Skip propane, CO2, HPA etc - there going to make it so low pressure that the movement of the ball in the HALO stack will create enough pressure to fire the marker... 15PSI input pressure... (what, atmospherice pressure is 14.7ish?)

hahaha. i can't believe nobody has thought of that till now! ;)

[SCpoloRicker]

Can I get it in a rasta fade?

[rabidchihauhau]

Are you inferring that there were more claims in the original filing that were split off into a divisional application because the USPTO felt that the content of the extra claims were too far out of scope to be included all in one application (#6,802,305)? Wouldn't that lend credibility to the fact that the content of those extra claims is indeed not granted coverage by patent #6,802,305?

Nicad, who's writing your posts, you or your attorney? LOL

here we go with numbers and letters again:

1. I am not inferring anything
2. Ask for an explanation of the differences between a divisional application and a continuation-in-part
3. Ask for an explanation of priority in regards to the same.
4. I've said as much as I'm going to say; despite the fact that I no longer work for PTP, I still have personal and ethical reasons for not wanting to be involved in starting someone down the path of trying to get around the patent.
A. because I honor my word
B. because I do not want to be responsible for someone wasting a ton of money and time

Here's another way to look at things:

Tom and presumably his IP folks looked at this IP
K2 and their IP folks looked at this IP
The %*^$@&$ PTO examiner granted this IP
I personally made an early attempt to license this IP and was not rejected; the reasons a license were not granted were reasonable and understandable, I accepted them in good grace and am waiting the period of time suggested before revisiting the issue.

What do I know - I've only helped create good IP or helped cut down bad IP - so I guess not much.

My marching orders at the time were to only work on 'legitimate' IP - not some of the fallacious bs we've seen over the past several years. In the long run, broad, weak claims are just an invitation to losiing your shirt to a competitor.

The real - and only - solution to an IP roadblock is to design your way around it. Afterall, that's one of the purposes of the whole patent thing, to spur innovation.

Peace. Out.

[phantomhitman]

not directed at anyone:



Yeah, not directed at anyone. I was joking around because the conversation is getting a little serious and the mood needed to be lightened. I can act ignorant like the kiddies over at pbn but I would need to use alot more 1111 and !!!!! and few 33377700xurzz. Try to use this smilely next time :rolleyes: when you point out things.

[SCpoloRicker]

Yeah, not directed at anyone. I was joking around because the conversation is getting a little serious and the mood needed to be lightened. I can act ignorant like the kiddies over at pbn but I would need to use alot more 1111 and !!!!! and few 33377700xurzz. Try to use this smilely next time :rolleyes: when you point out things.

U r teh lamzors OMGWTFBBQ!!1

[edweird]

Yeah, not directed at anyone. I was joking around because the conversation is getting a little serious and the mood needed to be lightened.
Meh this situation has been needing to come to a head for a while... To be absolutley blunt I dont feel this needs to be lightened up and the symptoms treated until it goes away like herpes. Either [poop] or get of the damn pot PTP, cause im tired of companys fileing patents with the sole intrest to bleed it dry for licensing rights.


Try to use this smilely next time :rolleyes: when you point out things.
:tard:

[Lohman446]

Meh this situation has been needing to come to a head for a while... To be absolutley blunt I dont feel this needs to be lightened up and the symptoms treated until it goes away like herpes. Either [poop] or get of the damn pot PTP, cause im tired of companys fileing patents with the sole intrest to bleed it dry for licensing rights.


:tard:

Umm... someone is using it, just not the someone you want.

Just because a company does not do what you want does not make it evil or wrong. I have already suggested what could be done if you think they are wrong and you want this.

[Chronobreak]

if these other companies arent/werent using the patent chances are we would have never even heard of this for mags(other than home mods)

fact is the 2-3 hundred mags would sell(while alot in mag terms) isnt even close to what ptp or anyone for that matter needs to build these given the parts required.

the parts arenot of the shelf(unles you want to sacrifice performance)...

also the pre-order thread said what 4-6 months? or was it 6-8? :rolleyes:

so i would say about now were probly at about 4-5 months since the preorder started, but i cant check since RR went all kamikaze on his post.

stay tuned, and i can tell by most of the comments here and on any other thread of this nature 98% of you have no idea what yuor talking about.

as far as i or anyone else know ptp is still pursuing the product but in a cross partnership thing(might be the wrong term) we depend on k2 and other companies to provide the sale #'s that mag owners cannot.

i dont know how much i should say on the subject at hand so il stop there for know. and just say stay tuned, were not elft in the dark yet...i eman do cocker owners have theirs yet ;)?



and from nicads post its hard to discnern what he may or may not have been insinuation(spl)
but i doubt even a small comapany has the power to get the ball rolling with the #'s i have heard involved in this project.

also on a sidenot colin if you read this..since agd isnt selling slugs...are you not making kartas anymore? or you stocked up or..still getting them there just not available to the public anymore?

[cledford]

Not knowing all of the details - I can read and the patent appears to have been filed for the purpose of protecting the use of magnets in triggers. To have the pnumatic portion buried in a different section appears *to me* as an attempt (as suggested) to patent everything - after the fact.

I agree that this matter has been needing to come to a head for a while. I'd like to know how something that everyone is so ready to admit won't make PTP enough to break even on producing the frames isn't something that can be just "given" (or licensed cheaply) to the public domain. What's wrong with that? PTP (from their perspective) will never make a dime off of the pnumatic trigger one way or the other - so why be nasty and take a "we've got it and you can't have it" position? I just don't get it. AGD, SP, Tippmann and others have been producing guns FOR YEARS (magnet or pnumatic - heck there was even that RT cocker) and nobody goes after them defend their "IP" but it (the IP) is *WAY TOO VALUABLE* to let DW produce a hundred or so frame to apease the mag owners? Something does NOT ADD UP. Tell me how the the Tippmann R, the Emag and the other markers DON't violate the patent.

Break it down in plain english somebody - why is this such an F'd up mess? Seems simple to figure out to me...

-Calvin

[Lohman446]

Not knowing all of the details - I can read and the patent appears to have been filed for the purpose of protecting the use of magnets in triggers. To have the pnumatic portion buried in a different section appears *to me* as an attempt (as suggested) to patent everything - after the fact.

I agree that this matter has been needing to come to a head for a while. I'd like to know how something that everyone is so ready to admit won't make PTP enough to break even on producing the frames isn't something that can be just "given" (or licensed cheaply) to the public domain. What's wrong with that? PTP (from their perspective) will never make a dime off of the pnumatic trigger one way or the other - so why be nasty and take a "we've got it and you can't have it" position? I just don't get it. AGD, SP, Tippmann and others have been producing guns FOR YEARS (magnet or pnumatic - heck there was even that RT cocker) and nobody goes after them defend their "IP" but it (the IP) is *WAY TOO VALUABLE* to let DW produce a hundred or so frame to apease the mag owners? Something does NOT ADD UP. Tell me how the the Tippmann R, the Emag and the other markers DON't violate the patent.

Break it down in plain english somebody - why is this such an F'd up mess? Seems simple to figure out to me...

-Calvin

They are making money on it. From my understanding after offering it to DW and AGD they have granted rights to it to K2. They are not holding it in spite, they are holding it because they ARE making money on it (I assume they did not just do this to be nice to K2).

[rabidchihauhau]

Lohman is correct.

I wrote the damn thing. We did not 'bury' anything. We wrote the claims as broadly as the law allows. Pneumatic versions, electro-pneumatic versions, mechanical versions, mechano-electrical versions, electromagnetic, etc., etc., etc., are ALL covered.

Go hire a patent attorney if you want to find out why/how.

Sick of this thread. Sick of uneducated reading of the patent claims. Sick of lack-of-knowledge of the patent process. Sick of cry-babies. And most of all, sick of people who can't get it through their thick skulls that a company is free to do with their property whatever they wish to. It would have been far better if PTP had said 'we hate mags and our sole purpose in patenting this concept is to keep it out of the hands of mag owners/users'.

[cledford]

Gee - someone with such an "intellectual high road" sure is touchy...

#1 Attorneys don't decide matters of fact - courts do. Unfortunate I doubt anyone out there has the cash to see this that through - which is exactly why this situation will stand, not necessarily because it's right or just. Look at the SP situation…

#2 Maybe you should try explaining your patent - sounds to me (based on your last post) that you patented the use of ANY trigger in paintball that is not reset hydraulically or manually. That is a little silly - so enlighten us "uneducated."

#3 Regardless of "what the law will allow" doesn't make something right - we all know that. There as many loopholes and gaps provided by the law as there are individual statutes - that's why there is a multi-trillion dollar industry devoted to interpreting and addressing the law – see #1.

#4 Just because a company is "free to do as it likes with it's "intellectual property" doesn't make it right, decent, or good. Tippmann and AGD could have "did what they liked with their IP" and paintball would be a DRAMATICALLY different place right now imagine if constant air or HP/N2 had been patented.

#5 As far as "uneducated people" - I don't see you doing anything to change that. You could easily explain in clear language how/what/why your patent covers, but instead you make lofty arguments that reference attorneys, laws, and what is "allowed by the law" but not the basic point of the thread.

#6 You didn't bother to address the fact that Tippmann, AGD, SP and several other smaller companies have produced product that may have violated your patent - why hasn't anyone ever addressed this/defended the patent before and what about currently?

I'm throwing down the glove here - this issue has been festering on the vine for more than a year now. It's about time someone stepped up and put it into plain-speak - as I read your posts PTP patented the use of triggers in paintball - how'd you do that?

-Calvin

[dre1919]

I think the demise of AGD is quite well summed up by many of the points in this thread. AGD was a great company that made great mechanical markers back when that was what mattered. These days, the Mag doesn't compete with anything out there anymore. Look at the car analogy...the Mag IS like a classic car. It's slower, heavier, and actually made of real metal whereas the newer semis are all faster and plastic. The Mag was fine back in the day when all it had to do was compete with Autocockers (more or less the same type of gun) and pump guns. Of course, given those competitors, it would easily be seen as equal or better. But, with the advent of the Angels, Shockers, Timmy's and such the Mag was just done.

Throw in the fact that AGD consistantly never came out with any new markers that weren't an addition to the Mag idea or design and there you have it. Sure, the Level 10 kit was innovative, but it was too complicated to be properly accepted by the masses. I know first hand this was something that turned people off to it. Why should a kid (or an adult for that matter) go buy a complex kit that requires fine tuning to your EXACT marker, requiring instructions of the net to do so, when they can go buy a semi with ACE on it? There's no muss, no fuss...it works and that's that. Before even developing the Lvl X AGD needed to engineer a way for it to be a drop in mod. Plug and play. It wasn't, so I think in large part it flopped because of the effort involved.

Prices are another thing. I had an old school RT (easily the most overated marker in the history of paintball) and I bought a Hyperframe for it. Now, granted, that was the fastest guns I've ever shot and the lightest trigger pull I've ever seen, but for the cost? I mean, I spent something like $800 on the RT and then another $500 on the Hyperframe! That's just insane. It always seemed that when I wanted to buy an aftermarket part it was expensive for my Mag. In some cases, it was MORE expensive because it was for a Mag!

The Mag was a great marker back in the middle 90's when everyone played in the woods, some people still used pump guns with semis in the same games and nobody new what a motorized hopper even was. But, that day was long ago. People should grasp the concept that AGD is just biding it's time, unloading it's stock as much as possible before closing the doors. I won't be surprised in the slightest when I come here to AO one day and the site is gone for good. It's just the way things go sometimes, and nothing is more constant than change. Well, maybe AGD's LACK of change. :)

~dre

[Lohman446]

#4 Just because a company is "free to do as it likes with it's "intellectual property" doesn't make it right, decent, or good. Tippmann and AGD could have "did what they liked with their IP" and paintball would be a DRAMATICALLY different place right now imagine if constant air or HP/N2 had been patented.

Where would the mag be today if HPA/N2 had not been accepted as part of the paintball world? Yes TK did a great service by not patenting it and enforcing that patent however, it was not entirely without major benefit to AGD. The autococker, as with many other markers, is superior to Mags in performance on all but the most carefully planned out CO2 systems. HPA kept this from being an issue.

Besides, this was before the explosion of the sport, when it was run by gentlemen. We have the benefits of big business, and now the restrictions.

The patent, as i understand it, has to do with tripping a mechanical sear with a seperately assisted system. Much like an improved 'cocker three way. You cannot get around it by using magents rather than air.

[rabidchihauhau]

Gee - someone with such an "intellectual high road" sure is touchy...

Yes. And you would be too if you've been through this mill overandoverandoverandoverandover

#1 Attorneys don't decide matters of fact - courts do. Unfortunate I doubt anyone out there has the cash to see this that through - which is exactly why this situation will stand, not necessarily because it's right or just. Look at the SP situation…

Where did I say anything contradictory to this statement? Anyone with the cash would look at the whole picture and, on advice of attorney, would save their money for R&D


#2 Maybe you should try explaining your patent - sounds to me (based on your last post) that you patented the use of ANY trigger in paintball that is not reset hydraulically or manually. That is a little silly - so enlighten us "uneducated."

I am under no obligation to explain PTP's patent. I authored it. I made suggestions as to alternative means that should be covered in the patent. Sorry that I'm brilliant enough to have anticipated all of the different ways that this thing could be designed, but then, that's what I got paid for.

I WILL NOT assist anyone in breaking this patent down and making suggestions as to work-arounds (in my genius opinion, there are none). I have an obligation to PTP to keep my mouth shut about certain things. I've already given as many hints as I possibly can without stepping over the line. If I were doing work for you, anyone else would run into the same damn wall. Its called INTEGRITY. I know - sadly lacking in the paintball industry, which is why folks might be unfamiliar with it, but its present in some cases, industry mindset nothwithstanding.


#3 Regardless of "what the law will allow" doesn't make something right - we all know that. There as many loopholes and gaps provided by the law as there are individual statutes - that's why there is a multi-trillion dollar industry devoted to interpreting and addressing the law – see #1.

And your point would be? I gather you are suggesting that: A. PTP is not right doing what they are doing, B. you don't like it. C. the supposition that if something could happen legally the situation would change and D. you are the one who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong. All of which are incorrect.

#4 Just because a company is "free to do as it likes with it's "intellectual property" doesn't make it right, decent, or good. Tippmann and AGD could have "did what they liked with their IP" and paintball would be a DRAMATICALLY different place right now imagine if constant air or HP/N2 had been patented.

With the exception of your last sentence - see my response to #3. In regards to Tom patenting HP/N2 - once again your suppositions are mistaken. First is the question of whether a solid patent would have granted. The technology already existed (SCBA); making a bottle thread to fit into an asa seems pretty straight forward to one familiar with the art. It might have bottled things up for a bit, but I seriously doubt that the 'concept' of using N2 for paintball guns would have gotten anywhere. A specific design, sure, soon to be followed by improvements from any company that didn't want to pay a license fee.

#5 As far as "uneducated people" - I don't see you doing anything to change that. You could easily explain in clear language how/what/why your patent covers, but instead you make lofty arguments that reference attorneys, laws, and what is "allowed by the law" but not the basic point of the thread.


Once again - I will not do your homework for you. If you get a failing grade, it will not be my responsibility.

#6 You didn't bother to address the fact that Tippmann, AGD, SP and several other smaller companies have produced product that may have violated your patent - why hasn't anyone ever addressed this/defended the patent before and what about currently?

Yes. And I'm sure that the folks writing the licensing agreements and the cease and desist letters are well aware of that fact also. I know for a fact that the PTP patent has priorty dates of one month prior to Tippmanns assisted trigger system. Whether that system infringes is up to other people to decide.

Listen up Pal - just because you are not in the loop doesn't mean things aren't happening! Get it? Most companies like to keep their legal s*** private. Furthermore, you are NOT ENTITLED to be privy to that information. Its not your business, its not your company, its not your product. There's oodles of IP wrangling in the industry that goes on everyday that you are blissfully unaware of. Thank god.

I'm throwing down the glove here - this issue has been festering on the vine for more than a year now. It's about time someone stepped up and put it into plain-speak - as I read your posts PTP patented the use of triggers in paintball - how'd you do that?

You didn't read the posts correctly, nor have you analyzed the patent correctly, nor have you seen everything there is to see.

You won't get it from me, and any additional comments I make will more than likely just piss you off even more, because you won't get anything worth doing anything with from me.

You can throw around any clothing you want to - it won't make a difference. But please, for everyone else's sake, please at least keep your shorts on.

-Calvin[/QUOTE]

[Lohman446]

Gee - someone with such an "intellectual high road" sure is touchy...

#1 Attorneys don't decide matters of fact - courts do. Unfortunate I doubt anyone out there has the cash to see this that through - which is exactly why this situation will stand, not necessarily because it's right or just. Look at the SP situation…

Let's discuss the SP situation. Several companies with the cash to afford patent attorneys or with attorneys on staff (K2) settled it. I doubt they decided to just settle with SP for no reason. Granted, a million whiney players opinion is different, but those with legal knowledge or advice have, in the vast majority, settled this, complied with the cease and desist order, or taken steps to avoid infringement. Some of these were very very smart people with pretty good understandings of IP law.

The opinions get touchy when people with apparently no concept of the law and no concept of business or seeking legal advice, with little or no experience with IP think that they are smarter than those with experience in one of the above. My point is this: The companies that looked into this decided, at least the vast majority of them, that SP did in fact have good grounds to stand on. I take there decisions to have much more consideration of the facts involved than those of the people whining about it.

[rabidchihauhau]

[QUOTE=Lohman446]Let's discuss the SP situation. Several companies with the cash to afford patent attorneys or with attorneys on staff (K2) settled it. I doubt they decided to just settle with SP for no reason. Granted, a million whiney players opinion is different, but those with legal knowledge or advice have, in the vast majority, settled this, complied with the cease and desist order, or taken steps to avoid infringement. Some of these were very very smart people with pretty good understandings of IP law. [QUOTE]

I get 'touchy' when people compare what I wrote to BS, plain and simple. PTP patents were ALL ABOUT being legit. Yes, grab as much territory as possible with the claims (that's what they are there for), no, don't do it in a fallacious manner - no making up new meanings for words that are only reflexively defined, no claiming that something doesn't exist when it does, no pretending to know what your competitor had in mind when they wrote their claims.

BUt what really gets my goat is that the upset and misunderstanding is almost entirely due to not knowing what a patent really is and what a claim really is. People think its inherently 'unfair' not because it is, but because they don't understand what's been granted. You get granted the right to keep others from making or using your design. NOT a right to make. You can sit on a patent your entire life and NEVER do anything with it except to send C&D letters out and accept royalty payments in.

You get 21 years to make back your R&D investment and realize a profit.

Claims cover the invention and describe what it does. A strong patent covers ALL of the territory anticipated by the design (hey, we can use screws instead of nails), alternative materials or formulations, etc. YOU ARE NOT WRITING GOOD CLAIMS UNLESS YOU COVER ALL OF THE POSSIBLY IMAGINED METHODS. If you don't, what's the point? You may as well call up your competitor and say 'hello, just thought you might like to know that you can get around my patent by substituting glue for nails...'

I don't walk into MIT and start arguing cosmology with the eggheads there because I don't know enough about the subject not to look like an idiot. (I do have a few suggestions for Hawkings tho...)

The purpose and nature of patents is to spur innovation and to reward those who spend money on the same. A patent that isn't written well is not worth the money. By LAW, you are being granted the right to prevent others from using the same.

Is that clear enough?

[MicroMiniMe]

Is that clear enough?

I don't know. Zealots are supposed to be pretty resistant to change and acceptance outside their views.

The most distant glimmer of ANY future product for Automag owners seems to get people a little too riled up. Even when the hAIR was being talked about and tested it was being hinted that the production cost and market share wasn't that great of a prospect to start with. No one could take it to heart and accept that then. I'm not sure why so many can't see that this 'second' round with PTPs model prototype not going forward or going slowly to production.

[rabidchihauhau]

we've got enough zealots in the middle east...

[Tracy_ptp]

WOW! Took me quite a long time to read this thread.

I would like to apologize for the wait on this frame. We do plan on building this, but there are "things" that are keeping us from moving forward. I am hoping that this project will get started soon. I can't get into any more details than that.

I will not respond to any one persons comments, but would like you to know that Forest and I have always been behind Automags. And still are. We have always tried to do what we can for our customers and some that weren't our customers and will continue to do so. Please be patient, this is as frustrating for us as it is for you, if not more so. Especially when I see the posts.

I hope to bring you good news soon.

Tracy Hatcher
:)

[neppo1345]

All I can say..... :)

Thank you....