RPG ULE Bolt

[RogueFactor]

Been working on this ULE bolt project on and off for the last 6 months, amongst a few other mag projects I have cooking :ninja:

This is ULE Bolt v2(2nd Prototype). v1 showed some promising results, so I developed v2 to verify some of those things. Ive had this ULE-B v2 since the beginning of October and have been testing it with some good results. Hope to move onto v3 soon. :wow:

It wont be available anytime soon. Just wanted you all to know that R&D is happening for mags. :dance:

There are more refinements that need to be made. The only information I can give is its weight---under 1 oz. :hail:

As far as I know, this bolt is the lightest functional mag bolt in existence to date. Even less than the original Superbolt.

For those who want to see a pic, here is a link::

RPG ULE Bolt (http://www.themagsmith.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34)

Hopefully, more to follow...Enjoy!

[spacedtedybear]

Ummm, I'll buy that one off you. :D Joking aside; it looks really nice. I assume that efficiency stays relatively the same. If you need a beta tester, let me know as well. :ninja:

[slade]

you deleted the thread? you know theres an edit button, right? ;)

so this is to replace a Lv7 bolt, not Lv10, right? does it provide any advantages as of yet besides weight?

[RogueFactor]

Ummm, I'll buy that one off you. :D Joking aside; it looks really nice. I assume that efficiency stays relatively the same. If you need a beta tester, let me know as well. :ninja:

Thanks! Beta-testing is still a few versions away. Just really wanted to give you a glimpse of what Ive been working on. Let me just say, the purpose of this bolt is not just weight :ninja:



you deleted the thread? you know theres an edit button, right? ;)

so this is to replace a Lv7 bolt, not Lv10, right? does it provide any advantages as of yet besides weight?

Thanks, but I like to start over clean.

Yes, it does provide other advantages. The only info I can give at this point though is the weight---which is sub-1 oz.

[Alpha]

A lighter bolt shoudl mean less recoil. Better airflow=better air effeciency?

[Pha|anx]

My interest is peaked, looks promising.

[onedude36]

I want one. very much.

Edit: would this make it any softer on paint? I would like a bolt with the no-tuning quality of lvl 7, but soft enough so i dont lose a finger accidentally. I dont care if it wont stop on a ball though, i will have eyes for that.

[SpecialBlend2786]

this means we can use a lighter spring in the lvl 10, correct?

[SnatchForFree]

Very hott. nice work rouge

[atm743]

looks nice

are you going to make this bolt be anti chop (new level 10)?? or just try to make it lighter to run off less pressure??

[Arstron]

very nice job rogue, cant wait to get my hands on one, will go great in my stock class mag! I need all the extra balls per 12 gram I can get. :headbang:

[LS1 WS6]

What do you think the ball park price estiamte would be on one of these bad boys when they do come out? Looks very cool, one more thing I will have to add ;)

[zackzel]

Very nice looking, I am anxious to see how this develops.

[rifleman wi]

lookin good :)

[Skoad]

I don't understand what exactly a lighter bolt would do in a mag. You would have to have the same strength spring just to recock the bolt at a fast speed, so you would also need the same amount of air to compress the spring...since its the same spring.

Am I missing something? :confused: :confused: :confused: Rogue, please splain

[Bonx0007]

nicely done sir. :ninja:

[bleachit]

I don't understand what exactly a lighter bolt would do in a mag. You would have to have the same strength spring just to recock the bolt at a fast speed, so you would also need the same amount of air to compress the spring...since its the same spring.

Am I missing something? :confused: :confused: :confused: Rogue, please splain

lighter bolt = lighter spring, less air to push bolt/spring


less moving mass = less recoil, softer on paint. and looking at the pictures of the 3 different bolts, the front design looks like it may be easier as it cups the paint as opposed to the stock bolt... and possibly better air efficiency..


but who knows...

I guess only rogue..

*considers not selling ss cf classic mag

[SpecialBlend2786]

I don't understand what exactly a lighter bolt would do in a mag. You would have to have the same strength spring just to recock the bolt at a fast speed, so you would also need the same amount of air to compress the spring...since its the same spring.

Am I missing something? :confused: :confused: :confused: Rogue, please splain

with a lighter bolt there is less mass that the spring needs to return, so it doesn't really need to be as strong as if the bolt were heavier. not sure if that made sense...of if its correct.

Also means that there is less mass slamming into the bumper which should mean less kick(?)

[Skoad]

yes. i understand the lighter something is, the less force it takes to move it. I guess i'm skeptical on the advantage of the weight difference....would like to see results is what I'm saying.

If this is just a straight aluminum bolt, why didn't tk do it long ago?

[SpecialBlend2786]

yes. i understand the lighter something is, the less force it takes to move it. I guess i'm skeptical on the advantage of the weight difference....would like to see results is what I'm saying.

If this is just a straight aluminum bolt, why didn't tk do it long ago?

yeah, i'm not too sure about the actual advantage either. i'll wait and see i guess.

[bleachit]

If this is just a straight aluminum bolt, why didn't tk do it long ago?


Im not so sure its a straight aluminum bolt... maybe its got a nice lil surprise on the inside... or not

[Raven001]

There was a company that made a titanium bolt back in 96/97 that weighed next to nothing and promised increased rate of fire. It did make it possible to shoot faster but the damned thing would wear out really fast. If I remember correctly it was some German company that also came out with the aluminium spacers for the power tube.

[hardr0ck68]

Ok, so lighter bolt means (with stock setup) faster bolt speed, yay great more BPS; however it also means a much higher liklyhood of cracking the next ball in the feed stack. The only ttests i have heard about being done on ball breakage were by ADG for the LX project; so unless you have something new and repeatable to test all i see is flawed theory.

Ohhh but eyes, i never chop with eyes, they are a godsend; yeah we all know thats a smoking pile of poo. m Even the best eyes on the market chop, but the kiddies that drop them in or pay the cash for them dont want to admit they did. Any marker with the feed stack set up improperly will break paint regardless of eyes, and of course their are other factors.

So in the end, i think you dropped the ball here unless your solution is something better engineered than eyes i think this product is just about as useless as can be. But hey prove me wrong, i will be amused!

(and as we both know, usel;ess doesnt mean it wont sell, i mean look at all the goofy body rails out there....)

[MarkM]

There was a company that made a titanium bolt back in 96/97 that weighed next to nothing and promised increased rate of fire. It did make it possible to shoot faster but the damned thing would wear out really fast. If I remember correctly it was some German company that also came out with the aluminium spacers for the power tube.

The Company was Toxic Toys, the bolt was made from Titanium with a plastic venturi insert and a small foam dot in the middle (which needed to be trimmed in half ;)), it was however made from two pieces of metal, the sear catching on the shelf/back part of the bolt. It cycled very quickly but due to the two part construction it fell apart. Also yes they made the spacer rings several years before AGD went down that route...these actually worked and they were colour coded to speed up the swapping out. They also did a version of the FFV (which was an aftermarket on/off valve originally created by John Bonich (Quantum Products)...which was first, FFV or The Toxic Toys one is a little unclear since they appeared around the same time. The Q-Tip by QP was about a year later. Toxic Toys also sold a Venom High line for the mag which Doc also started to make around the same time. I have no idea what happened to the company if they just stopped or went to another avenue of sales.

*edit* I guess they gave up http://www.venom.paintball.de/flash/index.html look at the last updated date

[Carbon Blue]

i cant wait to find out some actual stats on this thing :)

[Chronobreak]

the only purpose i can think of is soem type of e-mag bolt where people dotn want lvl7 and they dont want lvlx since its too much tuning :rolleyes:

but nice to see something in the works, and hope to see it fulfill all its promises(so far weight ;) )

[Skoad]

I despise level 10.

[UTDragun]

I would guess the bolt would be made out of some aluminum/scandium alloy

[GT]

very cool.

[peewee]

palms are sweaty now..... Thanks!!! Is the base where the sear catches aluminum or steel??

[BigEvil]

Im not really sure how much of a 'cycle rate' increase you would gain by decreasing the weight of the bolt... (even though under 1oz is very sweet sounding) and if this is a lvl7 application I dont know who would want this for their gun unless of course you had an emag of some sorts with a eye system in it.

On the posative side, I am glad to see the someone is doing some R&D for mags. I cant wait to see what Rogue ends up with ~~

I give Rogue 4 dancing banannas
:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

[UTDragun]

so is there no more foamie?

[TheTramp]

I'm still waiting for a clear answer to the L10 compatibility question.

[11 Bravo]

If this is just a straight aluminum bolt, why didn't tk do it long ago?


Because he quit.

[ThePixelGuru]

Eyes + an RPG bolt... :D

[11 Bravo]

Glad to see someone is doing something with mag r&d. Good luck with it, I am looking forward to seeing the final product.

[GT]

so is there no more foamie?


foamie is worthless

[Tunaman]

;)
foamie is worthlessThe Foamie is NOT worthless by any means. The foamie is plays the very important role of keeping the ball from rolling back into the face of the bolt. That action keeps the ball stack straight up and down. This elimates chops.

[SpecialBlend2786]

;) The Foamie is NOT worthless by any means. The foamie is plays the very important role of keeping the ball from rolling back into the face of the bolt. That action keeps the ball stack straight up and down. This elimates chops.

yesh

I wish older angel's had foamies :(

[onedude36]

yesh

I wish older angel's had foamies :(

I wish my viking could have a foamie :(

[RogueFactor]

Thanks everyone!

There appears to be lots of questions about the bolt. At this point, the only information I can give you is the weight, which is sub- 1 oz.

I would have kept this project quiet, but with all the "Nothing is being done for mags" posts recently, I thought it was appropriate.


To drop my $.02 on the foamie debate...

Ive heard both sides of the argument. Some have said that foamies are useless, and are a consumable meant to keep you buying them. While others have said that the foamie is essential.

The argument for the foamies being useless makes some sense. There are plenty of bolts on the market without foamies(cockers, cyborgs, timmies, ions, etc, etc) that dont have the chop issues that mags do.

It was always believed that mag bolts were hard on paint, which was the reason for the foamie. The Level 10 research found that the front edge of the bolt knicked the next ball in the stack and caused many of the marker chopping issues. The front edge of the bolt was rounded to solve this issue. This was stated by Tom himself.

Ive known plenty of mag users that lose their Level 10 foamie, never replace it, and their mags work just fine without it. Ive spoken with others who have chop without a foamie.

Which is better seems to be up to the user and what they have experienced.

[onedude36]

why not make it both? have 2 screw in faces, one with a foamie for those who want it, and another hard faced one for those that dont. Probably one of those things that is harder in practice than words :)

[warbeak2099]

Oh cmon, stop pussyfooting around. This baby is meant for increased efficiency!!! Jay started to do it, but retired and now you've picked up the project. Thank God, someone had to do it. We need an HE bolt for mags w/ eyes.

And the bs about eyes being unreliable... grow up. They do their job quite well. I never see anyone at the local field with eyes complaining. The "what are you gonna do if your eyes go down?" question is pointless. Eyes don't usually just go down.

I think this is one of the best things happening for mags right now. This + the Logic UEM frame = Uber mag. Think about it, the Logue mag:

X-valve w/ .712" emag on/off
RPG Exile body + Clamping neck
Logic ULE Rail w/ ace covers
Logic UEM Frame w/ bb eyes
RPG ULE bolt
RPG Stickgrip
AGD Flatline tank
CP Barrel Kit
2x Kila Detents

Cmon, that'd be way uber and all of you know it!

[Skywalker]

Oh cmon, stop pussyfooting around. This baby is meant for increased efficiency!!! Jay started to do it, but retired and now you've picked up the project. Thank God, someone had to do it. We need an HE bolt for mags w/ eyes.

And the bs about eyes being unreliable... grow up. They do their job quite well. I never see anyone at the local field with eyes complaining. The "what are you gonna do if your eyes go down?" question is pointless. Eyes don't usually just go down.

I think this is one of the best things happening for mags right now. This + the Logic UEM frame = Uber mag. Think about it, the Logue mag:

X-valve w/ .712" emag on/off
RPG Exile body + Clamping neck
Logic ULE Rail w/ ace covers
Logic UEM Frame w/ bb eyes
RPG ULE bolt
RPG Stickgrip
AGD Flatline tank
CP Barrel Kit
2x Kila Detents

Cmon, that'd be way uber and all of you know it!


I think I just creamed my pants.

[Arstron]

Oh cmon, stop pussyfooting around. This baby is meant for increased efficiency!!! Jay started to do it, but retired and now you've picked up the project. Thank God, someone had to do it. We need an HE bolt for mags w/ eyes.

And the bs about eyes being unreliable... grow up. They do their job quite well. I never see anyone at the local field with eyes complaining. The "what are you gonna do if your eyes go down?" question is pointless. Eyes don't usually just go down.

I think this is one of the best things happening for mags right now. This + the Logic UEM frame = Uber mag. Think about it, the Logue mag:

X-valve w/ .712" emag on/off
RPG Exile body + Clamping neck
Logic ULE Rail w/ ace covers
Logic UEM Frame w/ bb eyes
RPG ULE bolt
RPG Stickgrip
AGD Flatline tank
CP Barrel Kit
2x Kila Detents

Cmon, that'd be way uber and all of you know it!

Add a black and blue acid wash anno with my coice of solid blue and black parts, and id trade every gun I own for one! :dance:

[warbeak2099]

Ok, we need to start signing a petition form. Who's with me???

[nippinout]

RogueFactor, are you working on something that begins with an E and ends with a Y? :D

[GT]

Ive known plenty of mag users that lose their Level 10 foamie, never replace it, and their mags work just fine without it. Ive spoken with others who have chop without a foamie.

Which is better seems to be up to the user and what they have experienced.

I have never had a problem, however I only use gravity feed loaders. Is it possible that without a foamy halo users get roll back?

[UTDragun]

I have never had a problem, however I only use gravity feed loaders. Is it possible that without a foamy halo users get roll back?
quite possible, force feed loaders usually keep constant pressure on the ball stack as compared to gravity loaders where balls would have more slack and therefore be able to move backwards slighty if the bolt hits the second ball in the stack.

[rkjunior303]

I wish my viking could have a foamie :(

You have two options:

a) Froth's o-ring mod... Put an oring around the Ram shaft, causing the "throw" to be a little longer.. This will eliminate rollback
b) custom bolt by Destructive customs. They will match a bolt to your tube, to eliminate rollback.

[TheTramp]

I'm still waiting for a clear answer to the L10 compatibility question.

Rogue,

Please at least answer this. :(

[BlackVCG]

I solved the foamie issue a long time ago.

I have the picture on my AO webspace, but nobody seems to fix it so I can get access. :(

[RogueFactor]

Rogue,

Please at least answer this. :(

Unfortunately, until there is a finished product there isnt an answer to give you. :cheers:




I solved the foamie issue a long time ago.

I have the picture on my AO webspace, but nobody seems to fix it so I can get access. :(

Well get crackin' Stephen!

[onedude36]

You have two options:

a) Froth's o-ring mod... Put an oring around the Ram shaft, causing the "throw" to be a little longer.. This will eliminate rollback
b) custom bolt by Destructive customs. They will match a bolt to your tube, to eliminate rollback.

Yes i was actually going to do the oring mod this week. I had a bbaaaaaddd experience with brittle paint last weekend. I had a squeegee in my hand off the break, thats how bad it was.. :cry:

and Rogue, get this bolt out soon, it will the the new ulb(ultra light bolt for the slower ones ;) ). and i will probably buy one :clap:

[11 Bravo]

Yeh get cracken on it. 6 months :confused:
I would definately be in the market for one, two, three maybe four. I have gone crazy in the last few weeks buying your sub zero feednecks. I would probably have to do the same with this bolt. :eek:

[TheTramp]

Unfortunately, until there is a finished product there isnt an answer to give you. :cheers:

Poop! ;)

[11 Bravo]

Are they ready yet? :)

[UTDragun]

Are they ready yet? :)
brushing off the dust

[personman]

I have to ask, why the venturi? I thought that they were pretty much proven to be useless and a restriction on airflow..

[GT]

I have to ask, why the venturi? I thought that they were pretty much proven to be useless and a restriction on airflow..


Depending on what the bolt is made out of it good be more of a structeral or cost savings issue.

[slade]

I have to ask, why the venturi? I thought that they were pretty much proven to be useless and a restriction on airflow..
probably the easiest way to make it, considering the valve stem on the bolt. that needs to attach to something, and its probably easier to drill round holes than mill something out, or make it any other way.

[RogueFactor]

I have to ask, why the venturi? I thought that they were pretty much proven to be useless and a restriction on airflow..

Depending on what the bolt is made out of it good be more of a structeral or cost savings issue.

probably the easiest way to make it, considering the valve stem on the bolt. that needs to attach to something, and its probably easier to drill round holes than mill something out, or make it any other way.

No stone will go unturned. All of you make interesting points.

v1 and v2 look very different from each other. v3 will likely look nothing like v2.

[GT]

No stone will go unturned. All of you make interesting points.

v1 and v2 look very different from each other. v3 will likely look nothing like v2.


at the end of this it would be pretty cool if you could snap a pic from the v1 through the actuall production bolt.

[minimag03]

I have to ask, why the venturi? I thought that they were pretty much proven to be useless and a restriction on airflow..

I agree with personman.

If the face restricts airflow, efficiency may lack and recoil increase, no matter how lite the bolt is.

[nippinout]

I agree with personman.

If the face restricts airflow, efficiency may lack and recoil increase, no matter how lite the bolt is.

At the same time, the smaller volume leads to less expansion before it gets to the ball.

[RogueFactor]

I agree with personman.

If the face restricts airflow, efficiency may lack and recoil increase, no matter how lite the bolt is.

Id love to agree with you both. However, without that proof, backed up by data, its all speculation. Which is why its being tested.

But if you have a link to that data, Id be very interested to see it. If at minimum just to see how they came to their conclusions.

FYI - There is no direct correlation between a lack of efficiency and recoil. The Matrix which has very little recoil, is less efficient than some of its poppet-valve counterparts.

Recoil is largely attributable to reciprocating mass(ie weight), among a few other things.

More importantly--- This is the 2nd prototype, not the final product. The final product may look differently than what you see here.

Hope this helps.

[warbeak2099]

Don't worry guys. He's testing this to get the most efficiency out of it. He tested a venturi style face and now he'll test something else probably. The venturi does restrict airflow, and therefore it probably won't be the finished version. But whatever the finished version is, it will be what Rogue got the most efficiency out of. So don't worry. He's not going to put out V2 if V3 gets better efficiency. He's still running testing and collecting data. That's the empirical method and that's how this needs to be done.

[minimag03]

Id love to agree with you both. However, without that proof, backed up by data, its all speculation. Which is why its being tested.

But if you have a link to that data, Id be very interested to see it. If at minimum just to see how they came to their conclusions.

FYI - There is no direct correlation between a lack of efficiency and recoil. The Matrix which has very little recoil, is less efficient than some of its poppet-valve counterparts.

Recoil is largely attributable to reciprocating mass(ie weight), among a few other things.

I don't have any acutal data. But I'm pretty sure that a bolt with larger openings on the face will lead to higher flow.

I never said that bad efficiency would lead to more recoil. What I mean't was you would have to increase the pressure/velocity with the verturi face. This would make the bolt move faster and cause alittle more recoil.

I have faith that you will deliver the best performing you possible and that these are the prototypes. I'm just trying to give you come input from a mag user. :)

[personman]

warbreak im not really worrying about it, just curious.

I'm sure Rogue's finished product will be amazing, like all of his other products.

Why didnt you use the nose that AGD used for L7 bolts? Is it too hard to manufacture?
Cause it would be a pity if some of the efficiency gained by having the lighter bolt was lost because of the tip..

[RogueFactor]

Why didnt you use the nose that AGD used for L7 bolts? Is it too hard to manufacture? Cause it would be a pity if some of the efficiency gained by having the lighter bolt was lost because of the tip..

At this point the only thing I can divulge is its weight. The rest is left to your curiosity ;)

But, as Ive said---no stone is going unturned. :D

[personman]

Agh.. not only are you being evil and secretive, your post count is 666...

coincidence? I think not.

[UTDragun]

Agh.. not only are you being evil and secretive, your post count is 666...

coincidence? I think not.
:rofl:

tru dat

[slade]

his post count seems to just hover around 666, and hes been here since 2001. that cant be right.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

his post count seems to just hover around 666, and hes been here since 2001. that cant be right.

Post counts lately have been wacko. For the past 5 or so months my post count has never exceeded 1,675. I know I have passed that mark.

[slade]

Post counts lately have been wacko. For the past 5 or so months my post count has never exceeded 1,675. I know I have passed that mark.
yeah, i know ;). i know of one thing at least, there may be more.

[latches109]

I have to ask, why the venturi? I thought that they were pretty much proven to be useless and a restriction on airflow..
<a href="http://www.jayloo.com/photo_gallery/show_pic.html?pIMAGE_ID=33606"> <img src="http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/33000/stock_proto_bolt_tn.jpg"> </img></a>

The stock proto matrix 2005 bolt is ventui. (Pictured above)

A lighter bolt will reduce recoil; Orange & lucky Bolt did in the matrix. If I can remember correctly the orange bolt rep at nppl San Diego, claimed you would gain a cycle every 6 cycles. Which I think is irrelevant since I can only pull the trigger so fast and do not max out the cycle rate ever.

lighter is good, I'm on the band wagon. :bounce:

[warbeak2099]

That's wierd. I thought most companies were switching to open face bolts because of their higher flow. It's common sense when you think about it, venturi just restricts airflow.

[slade]

That's wierd. I thought most companies were switching to open face bolts because of their higher flow. It's common sense when you think about it, venturi just restricts airflow.
but you often have to think about the design. for many bolt designs venturi is the most practical, not for the perceived advantages but because with a matrix, freestyle, or mag bolt (unlike a spyder, cocker, or other stacked tube ram bolt) you need to have the bolt connected in the center, and the air flow around that connection. the easiest way to do that, as you can see with that proto bolt, is to just drill holes. or it could be done as with the lvl10 bolt, with three points that connect the outer part of the bolt to the shaft while the air flows through the larger openings, but i think that is a two piece construction. it would be much harder to make from one piece of metal, such as with a matrix bolt.

since a bolt such as one on a spyder, cocker, or ram driven marker does not require a construction like that and can easily be open face, there isnt much of a reason for venturi.

[warbeak2099]

Why not connect those holes to make one big opening? Er, like a ring around the front of the bolt face.

[latches109]

Why not connect those holes to make one big opening? Er, like a ring around the front of the bolt face.

B/c the metal between the holes keeps the back "shaft" on. The front is hollow.

[hardr0ck68]

How can you compare the efficancy of a bolt you have never used? People commonly say bolt X is better than bolt Y for autocockers mostly based off of assumptions like the ones you are making right now. When clever players wanted to find out the truth (when paintball was a sport not some kiddy game) they would take 4 or 5 different bolts to the chrono and shoot some paint. The bolt that produced the highest velocity was the most efficent; often times it WAS NOT the one with the largest hole.

I believe this was because the large holes actually allow the air to slow down, maybe hitting the paint with "less force" however when the velocity was turned up to match the most efficent bolt the forces acting on the ball were just about (if not exactly) the same. I have no proof to back this up, however i m not supporting one bolt over another (players in those days were clever enough to realize the best bolt in one setup may NOT be the best for other set up's).

However the general doppyness of todays players lends itself to blanket statements, such as the ones found in this thread without any other information than a picture and no logic other than "i think a bigger hole is always better".

[warbeak2099]

The idea that a bigger hole is better is supported by logic. An open face allows a higher volume of air to hit the ball. A venturi style bolt constricts air heading towards the ball. Your line of thinking isn't making much sense. How could an open face bolt "slow" the air down if it's allowing it to pass through unrestricted???

[slade]

How can you compare the efficancy of a bolt you have never used? People commonly say bolt X is better than bolt Y for autocockers mostly based off of assumptions like the ones you are making right now. When clever players wanted to find out the truth (when paintball was a sport not some kiddy game) they would take 4 or 5 different bolts to the chrono and shoot some paint. The bolt that produced the highest velocity was the most efficent; often times it WAS NOT the one with the largest hole.

I believe this was because the large holes actually allow the air to slow down, maybe hitting the paint with "less force" however when the velocity was turned up to match the most efficent bolt the forces acting on the ball were just about (if not exactly) the same. I have no proof to back this up, however i m not supporting one bolt over another (players in those days were clever enough to realize the best bolt in one setup may NOT be the best for other set up's).

However the general doppyness of todays players lends itself to blanket statements, such as the ones found in this thread without any other information than a picture and no logic other than "i think a bigger hole is always better".
...youre complaining about people conversing about the theoretical efficiency of a bolt without solid proof or at least evidence, and then in one paragraph:

I believe this was because... maybe... I have no proof to back this up...
youre the most guilty of what you accuse others of. and dont try to get out of what youve said with:

i m not supporting one bolt over another (players in those days were clever enough to realize the best bolt in one setup may NOT be the best for other set up's).

youre just supporting the classic "venturi" view with its logic, that the small holes make the air "speed up". even if that is true, that air is still hitting a smaller area of the ball when it is resting against the bolt, and when the ball is farther forward the air will expand to fill the chamber (you know, gasses tend to do that) and there will be a lower pressure of air. if you are trying to argue that the velocity of a paintball is created by the air moving fast through the venturi and hitting the ball at a high velocity instead of the air expanding and forcing the ball out of a barrel (the first would have to be true for the venturi hypothesis to be correct) try taking off your barrel and putting a ball right up against the face of that venturi bolt on your autococker, and pull the trigger. it wont really go anywhere. you want actual testing? there it is. the velocity of a paintball is NOT created by the acceleration of air through the venturi.


How can you compare the efficancy of a bolt you have never used? People commonly say bolt X is better than bolt Y for autocockers mostly based off of assumptions like the ones you are making right now. When clever players wanted to find out the truth (when paintball was a sport not some kiddy game) they would take 4 or 5 different bolts to the chrono and shoot some paint. The bolt that produced the highest velocity was the most efficent; often times it WAS NOT the one with the largest hole.
even thats not correct. the efficiency does not depend only on the velocity you get with each bolt. what youre thinking is that each bolt uses the same volume of air at the same pressure with each shot, and the one with the highest velocity will be the most efficient, because you can then lower the pressure, using less air. however each bolt does not necessarily use the same ammount of air, since a certain bolt design may restrict the flow of air, and when the poppet closes less air will have left the marker. however that air will have delivered less force to the ball, so it will theoretically both use less air and have a lower velocity, and not necessarily be less efficient.

that is assuming it is a cocker or spyder. with a marker that is ram driven with an adjustable dwell, you can control how long the cup seal is open, and the best efficiency will come when you use an open face bolt (to not restrict airflow), raise the pressure a bit, and lower the dwell (over what is most likely the stock settings). the air will flow quickly at a high pressure and deliver the most force to the ball, and then the poppet will close and no air will be wasted. with a lower pressure/higher dwell setup, the air will deliver less force over a longer period, and some of the air will be lost, since as the ball is father down the barrel the air will be much less effective, especially with porting. very high pressure setups could be less efficient, because you wont be able to shoot far enough into your tank, and for best efficiency you should have your tank output set at a few hundred PSI above your air pressure. if you want any proof or testing for that (besides logic, which seems to be in my favor...) talk to simon/manike, the NPS engineer. or, you can just look at matrices. how do you increase the efficiency? top hat mod. decrease the volume of air used per shot, and increase the pressure.

for mag efficiency... ill leave that up to testing. a more open face bolt could be more efficient, or maybe with a venturi bolt face the marker will use less air. a mag with paint will be more efficient than one dryfiring, because there is still air remaining in the chamber when it is resealed... a venturi bolt may have the same effect, although (as i said) it will also have a lower velocity vs. a non venturi bolt at the same pressure. part of the problem with mags is that the velocity (and efficiency) will be affected by the bolt spring.

i probably would have been nicer if you werent so elitist.

[hardr0ck68]

i probably would have been nicer if you werent so elitist.



woah there skippy, i really dont give a rats boney butt for what you said, i only read half of it. But the point is if you do something that raises your velocity, with all other things equal, that means you have made a more efficent system. If you change bolts and notice a 25fps loss then thats pretty hard to argue is "better"

my point was not about what bolt is better, just that there is alot of little annoying kiddies cluttering up a thread with speculation and their paintball qusiphysics. I also dont give to sqirts of urine if you are "nicer" to me or not, i think you have trouble understanding the basic logics envolved with a paintball gun and WAYYY to much time spend justifying manufactures claimes without any verification of the validity of those claimes. In short you are a tool.

[slade]

woah there skippy, i really dont give a rats boney butt for what you said, i only read half of it. But the point is if you do something that raises your velocity, with all other things equal, that means you have made a more efficent system. If you change bolts and notice a 25fps loss then thats pretty hard to argue is "better"

my point was not about what bolt is better, just that there is alot of little annoying kiddies cluttering up a thread with speculation and their paintball qusiphysics. I also dont give to sqirts of urine if you are "nicer" to me or not, i think you have trouble understanding the basic logics envolved with a paintball gun and WAYYY to much time spend justifying manufactures claimes without any verification of the validity of those claimes. In short you are a tool.
i always find it funny when i run into someone like you online...

maybe if you read my post, you would understand a bit better what i said.


woah there skippy, i really dont give a rats boney butt for what you said, i only read half of it. But the point is if you do something that raises your velocity, with all other things equal, that means you have made a more efficent system. If you change bolts and notice a 25fps loss then thats pretty hard to argue is "better"
that would be true if all other things were equal. but my point was (if you had the brain power to comprehend my post) that all things are not necessarily equal. a higher flow bolt will increase the FPS of your marker, but also increase the volume of air used. if you take the venturi out of a spyder bolt (as i have done before) you can see the FPS increase. however, i dont see why you are arguing with that, since that is just about the only piece of evidence at all in support of venturi... which you seem to favor.


my point was not about what bolt is better, just that there is alot of little annoying kiddies cluttering up a thread with speculation and their paintball qusiphysics. I also dont give to sqirts of urine if you are "nicer" to me or not, i think you have trouble understanding the basic logics envolved with a paintball gun and WAYYY to much time spend justifying manufactures claimes without any verification of the validity of those claimes. In short you are a tool.
first of all you would sound smarter if you could spell adequately. at least youre better than team magfiea, ill give you that. on to what you actually said though. im not sure if theres even any point in arguing with someone who cant even read or comprehend my posts. lets leave this up to someone who actually read my post... because they would have seen that it actually involved more logic, thought, and understanding than your posts have. i fail to see anywhere where i tried to justify a manufacturers claims, in fact im often the first to argue against such claims... like that venturi is better.

i just love it when someone undermines himself with his own arguments... especially when its the same person that called me a tool.

[GT]

first of all you would sound smarter if you could spell adequately. at least youre better than team magfiea, ill give you that. on to what you actually said though. im not sure if theres even any point in arguing with someone who cant even read or comprehend my posts.


:spit_take :spit_take :spit_take <---- just did that with my morning green tea

http://allyourbase.planettribes.gamespy.com/b/sign14.jpg

[hardr0ck68]

all i have been saying is that no one here has offered any proof that one bolt design will be more efficent than another. You can go after my spelling, frankly for a thread like this i dont care enough to spell check. I have nothing to prove to you. However i am not the one saying venturi designs will inherantly (oh no that could be spelled wrong, maybe if i cared i would check) be less efficent than other desgins with no conclusive data.

What i have been saying all along is that simple tests can be used to find out if this design is more effictive than another, and im sure Rouge is doing at least that much (although i would be intrested in seeing data before i purchased one). In the old days players would do these tests themselves instead of relying on blanket statements such as larger holes flow more air, and so are more efficent.

[slade]

all i have been saying is that no one here has offered any proof that one bolt design will be more efficent than another. You can go after my spelling, frankly for a thread like this i dont care enough to spell check. I have nothing to prove to you. However i am not the one saying venturi designs will inherantly (oh no that could be spelled wrong, maybe if i cared i would check) be less efficent than other desgins with no conclusive data.

What i have been saying all along is that simple tests can be used to find out if this design is more effictive than another, and im sure Rouge is doing at least that much (although i would be intrested in seeing data before i purchased one). In the old days players would do these tests themselves instead of relying on blanket statements such as larger holes flow more air, and so are more efficent.
thats better. but still, the method you mentioned in testing autococker bolts (which you said old school players did) is not accurate. the only accurate method of testing would be to install the bolt, chrono the marker, fill the tank (cold fill) and then drain the tank, counting the shots until it stopped firing. although even then, efficiency can depend on other factors. with a mag, mainly the bolt spring. with a cocker, efficiency would also have a lot to do with the HP pressure versus the force the hammer hits the valve with (spring tension) which would change depending on how you chrono it. it also depends on other (less adjustable) factors like the valve spring. cockers have much more adjustability than mags.

with rogue i would like to see a chart of the shots from each version bolt along with a L7 or L10 (depending on which it is compatable with), stating the spring used, tank size and pressure from cold fills.

[warbeak2099]

Actually, slade is proving it using science and facts. You are trying to prove your point using speculation and anecdotal evidence. Neither of those are reliable sources for information. Your entire posts basically illustrate the fact that you are ignorant and don't have a clue about paintball technology. Using physics IS the right way to explain this. You are the one cluttering up this thread with conjecture. Please leave, there are intelligent people here who wish to discuss the matter in an intelligent and scientific way. Why don't you go and teach intelligent design to a biology class somewhere, you ignorant neanderthal.

[slade]

Actually, slade is proving it using science and facts. You are trying to prove your point using speculation and anecdotal evidence. Neither of those are reliable sources for information. Your entire posts basically illustrate the fact that you are ignorant and don't have a clue about paintball technology. Using physics IS the right way to explain this. You are the one cluttering up this thread with conjecture. Please leave, there are intelligent people here who wish to discuss the matter in an intelligent and scientific way. Why don't you go and teach intelligent design to a biology class somewhere, you ignorant neanderthal.

:spit_take :spit_take :spit_take <---- just did that with my morning green tea

http://allyourbase.planettribes.gamespy.com/b/sign14.jpg
im lucky my green tea isnt ready, i decided to get some after GT's post.

[warbeak2099]

Green tea has to be one of the greatest drinks on the planet. Of course I only drink iced green tea, but hey it's still mad healthy and tasty too. Woot woot for iced green tea w/ ginseng and honey!

Anyhoo, you been working on this a while Rogue. You might want to talk to Jay since he's dropped the project. Maybe you can work with him to churn this out a little faster.

[latches109]

I doubt .8 oz will produce much, if any, noticeable difference in efficiency; in either direction (let's guess 20 extra balls per 98/3k hpa). BUUTTT I do know that lighter bolts give less "kick." 2 oz. mass being slammed into the gun or a 1 oz. mass slamming into the gun. 1 oz. will obviously give less kick = better accuracy (in my case). Mag efficiency is fine for me, air is cheep and I can refill frequently, but I am always interested in a <kick gun.

SO lighter is better, green tea is good, I’m on the band wagon. :bounce:

[RogueFactor]

Anyhoo, you been working on this a while Rogue. You might want to talk to Jay since he's dropped the project. Maybe you can work with him to churn this out a little faster.

I dont think Jay would be much help, since I started this project before he posted his first idea. From his statements in his post, he never made it past the idea "what if" stage... so I dont know if he will be much help being that I am already on prototype #2, and moving onto #3.

Thanks though warbeak, but I am not looking for speed. Id rather take my time and do it myself. Ive already spoken with a few people I trust before the Summer of 05, when undertaking this project. Many of my projects are things that arent posted---this is just an exception.

[hardr0ck68]

Actually, slade is proving it using science and facts. You are trying to prove your point using speculation and anecdotal evidence. Neither of those are reliable sources for information. Your entire posts basically illustrate the fact that you are ignorant and don't have a clue about paintball technology. Using physics IS the right way to explain this. You are the one cluttering up this thread with conjecture. Please leave, there are intelligent people here who wish to discuss the matter in an intelligent and scientific way. Why don't you go and teach intelligent design to a biology class somewhere, you ignorant neanderthal.


oh well how about this if were talking physics and flow and whatnot. If you have air at a predetermined pressure then it will move with a speed that is generally determined by pressure and area. So if you open up the area (like a hogged out bolt) your pressure drops at that point (may seem good if you buy into the LP hype) but now the velocity at which the air is moving has been lowered; effect on efficancy? genreally unknown because of variables throughout the system. Another good place that you may or maynot care about to see this in action is in most 2 stroke's the exaust is bulbous at a point; when the exausting gasses reach that point (which has more "flow" ) the gases slow way down. My point was and is the simplest method is to test the two designs and see raises the velocity, why? because with all other factors remaining the same (pressure and volume in the dump chamber the principal ones to worry about here) the bolt producing the higher velocity is going to be the most efficent.

I will say that the old timers never really took in to consideration the weight differance and its effect on the system just flow and velocity of the air (which was never measured, just a trial and error test to see what bolt accelerated the paint most with the same amount of air), but when all bolts were mad of aluminum the weight differance an its effect on other parts of the system were percieved as minimal. This is espacally true for a cocker where the bolt movement and hammer are independant while gas is released.


and guess what i still dont care about you enough to spell check....so yeah my quasi-physics are better than yours (notice no one has yet to produce equasions and run real number through them....so were all tools really)

[GT]

I dont think Jay would be much help, since I started this project before he posted his first idea. From his statements in his post, he never made it past the idea "what if" stage... so I dont know if he will be much help being that I am already on prototype #2, and moving onto #3.

Thanks though warbeak, but I am not looking for speed. Id rather take my time and do it myself. Ive already spoken with a few people I trust before the Summer of 05, when undertaking this project. Many of my projects are things that arent posted---this is just an exception.




:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[RRfireblade]

I dont think Jay would be much help, since I started this project before he posted his first idea. From his statements in his post, he never made it past the idea "what if" stage... so I dont know if he will be much help being that I am already on prototype #2, and moving onto #3.


When that post was made I had already been testing the final prototype for a couple months ;) somethign like 50K+ cycles in my fully E-Pneumatic Xmag , which it's still in BTW, but it looks like your doing just fine on your own.

Good luck with it, I'm sure you'll do a great job. :)

[RogueFactor]

When that post was made I had already been testing the final prototype for a couple months ;) somethign like 50K+ cycles in my fully E-Pneumatic Xmag , which it's still in BTW, but it looks like your doing just fine on your own.

Good luck with it, I'm sure you'll do a great job. :)

Thanks Jay. :cheers:

We must be thinking of two different projects. I remember your late August post on the bolt idea, which I kept a copy of since I was already working with my first prototype when you made the post. It sounded like you hadnt made an attempt yet and that it was "just a thought".


http://home.earthlink.net/~roguefactor/RRFBoltIdea.jpg
"Thats why I said this was "just a thought". After some initial testing I was pretty excited at what could be gained and figured there could be some interest but is that enough to make it worth the attempt? Hard to say."

[RRfireblade]

"Thought" was pretty much in regards to the commitment of production vs. interest/gain primarily. That quoted statement refers to the 'initial' testing that prompted further development. PTP made an aftermarket Mag bolt years ago so I'm quite aware of the complexities of such a production item. But I've never been huge L10 fan and always thought of it as more of a band-aid in regards to an answer for chop free high ROF electro performance. It doesn't compare to 'eyes' IMO at all and would much rather gain other potentail benefits from the bolt system. The idea actually stemmed from a proto pneumatic return Mag valve system I had an idea for and while tinkering noticed some other practical benefits from a redsigned bolt. There's more to it than I eluded to in that thread , I wasn't prepared to give away to much info as there were certain possible legal issues that needed to be kept quiet and may still need to. In the end I just needed a break from paintball on the whole (to many companies, to many projects) and unfortunately that might have killed a few Mag products at least for a little while.

Anywho....

[snoopay700]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the level 10 bolt only 1 oz,, which is the same as the rpg bolt?

[RogueFactor]

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the level 10 bolt only 1 oz,, which is the same as the rpg bolt?

The Level 10 bolt is 1.3 oz. The RPG ULE Bolt is sub-1.0 oz.

[snoopay700]

The Level 10 bolt is 1.3 oz. The RPG ULE Bolt is sub-1.0 oz.
Oh, well excuse me, haha. I just herd tom kaye say in an interview that it was 1 ounce.

[PnueMagger]

As a future aerospace/mechanical engineer (one more semester :rolleyes: ) with heavy backrounds in thermodynamic fluid internal/external flow, I must say this is the best (most entertaining) thread I've ever read. Slade, you raise many interesting points about testing the bolts especially in autocockers, and you are correct, there are best bolts for certain setups and best bolts for other setups. The venturi is not always best, but can have advantages in situatations. Personally I prefer it. There is always a bit of triage (sp?) when choosing a "best whatever" in anything. That's life. Hardrock68...you are sooo close to the theory of venturi flow [esp. in bolts] it's crazy. Hint: think laminar flow and the benefits of it versus open flow impacting a sphere (paintball).

PS - rougue, it looks good. There a ton of factors to consider if your shooting for best efficiency, but your a pro at this stuff so you can handle it. And i love your stuff man :hail: What is your profession or are you an AGD tech or something. LOL-Can you make me a tech when I graduate? I'll be like, "Oh, it's cool Mr AGD, Rogue said I work here now." [sits down in CEO's chair] :cool:

My two cents: I will not make a "best bolt is this" comment (because there is no right answer) but the best thing you can do to increase efieciency in either method you chose to employ is try to get the BEST interior surface finish possible. You'll reduce the turblence envelope thickness by doing this and get better LAMINAR Flow Rate. Often underrated/overlooked: radius all entrances, exits, openings curves, etc - you can actually lose up to one full head loss with an unradiused/unflared exhaust! Hell, if i were making a bolt i would try to get a smoth glasslike surface on the interior of the flow canals. Or maybe an ultra-smooth teflon coat inside $$$ :( . Interior Friction factor is a major factor in efficient flow and it's effects can be greatly magnified at high velocities and presuures. Just Check out the Darcy-Weisbbach Formulae and ColebrookFormulae with some Moody Charts and it's really quite astounding!

FYI - This is one primary reason Micro honed barrels break little paint, Not so much the smooth surface interacting with the paintball, but the ability of the air to effiecinetly flow in front of and behind with little turbulence against the walls of the barrel. Dang I love Dye Barrels!

And I'm not trying to sound elite. I'm just expressing my liking for all the intuition found in this thread and hope it continues for many more days!

Good Luck Rogue. May the Swartz be w/ you!

up...for a sweet bolt and thread

[RapidTransit]

The venturi is not always best, but can have advantages in situatations. Personally I prefer it. There is always a bit of triage (sp?) when choosing a "best whatever" in anything. That's life. Hardrock68...you are sooo close to the theory of venturi flow [esp. in bolts] it's crazy. Hint: think laminar flow and the benefits of it versus open flow impacting a sphere (paintball).
Correct me if im wrong, but would a properly designed venturi, there always will be an advantage. I just think carbs, without a venturi and how crappy theyd work without em :rofl:

Whats going to be used to keep the bolt from nicking the next ball in line?

I also wondered about making the rear tapered and taking from a performance valvetrain using beehive springs, which work well for high RPM's or in this case bps.

But what matters most to move the ball? The amount of pressure or the velocity of air at a certain cfm?

[GT]

FYI - This is one primary reason Micro honed barrels break little paint,

And I'm not trying to sound elite.


Since when did barrels break paint? The only problem I have ever had is barrels comming unscrewed and mis-matched surfaces knicking the ball. Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?

[PnueMagger]

Since when did barrels break paint? The only problem I have ever had is barrels comming unscrewed and mis-matched surfaces knicking the ball. Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?

You've never had a barrel break? I mean, crappy balls break all day long but I'm not really talking about that. Honing is the process of machining/finishing something to a specified tolereance, like a piston cylinder, or pb barrel. "Micro-honed" simply refers to micron ranged tolerances. I'm basically talking about the stock barrels and the low end value barrels on markers. Almost all (quality) after-market barrels do benefit from this. If I remember the Lvl 7 mag video correctly, TK talks a little about how their new Crown point barrel "gently released the ball" for more accurate shots. Basically, the driving idea behind a crown point barrel is that you'll relieve a great deal or turbulence from the front of the ball before it actually leaves the barrel. Man, TK was always ahead of the game, he knew what was up :headbang: . The same is true about modern ported barrels, that the air pressure in front of (and behind) the ball acts @ lower pressure resulting in lower natural turbulence. This method is more modern and better performing way to lower the in-barrel turbulence.
But remember way back in the day when almost all barrels were not ported? And how the J&J Brass barrels were sweet? :headbang: They weren't ported and had the same bores and functionality of basically every other barrel back then. But they used a much nicer micro-honed finish, and brass (commonly known as a "self-lubricating" material). This is the kind of example i wanted to show, how if rougue could somehow micro-hone or get a glassy interior bolt surface, his bolt would benefit from time proven technology.

[PnueMagger]

Correct me if im wrong, but would a properly designed venturi, there always will be an advantage. I just think carbs, without a venturi and how crappy theyd work without em :rofl:

Whats going to be used to keep the bolt from nicking the next ball in line?

I also wondered about making the rear tapered and taking from a performance valvetrain using beehive springs, which work well for high RPM's or in this case bps.

But what matters most to move the ball? The amount of pressure or the velocity of air at a certain cfm?

I'll try to be concise.
1)Yes you're absolutly correct, Venturi flow is very effective but particularly only @ low pressures/velocities. Carbs are primes examples of this, they suck w/out venturi flow. At high pressures/velocities, flow head loss becomes expontialy greater (logrithmically i believe) :eek: snd effiecency can go down the crapper with even smooth finishes. Unfortunately frictionless flow is impossible. So at paintball pressures the only time venturi begins to add effective imporvement is in the higher end very LP guns, like the bolt shown earlier in this thread. All a venturiwill do @ high pressures is give more laminar (uniform) flow out the bolt head. Although probably not the best for HP high ROF, That has advantages and leads us to #4...

4) Plain old F=ma and momentum balance. A certain amout of air mass @ a certain velocity has t amount of time to deliver x amount of energy. Forget blow forward/blowback/open/closed bolt debates. this is it...period. The main difference betwwen venturi and open is this. Venturi can deliver a more streamlined energy flow/transfer with laminar flow with less gas at higher velocity than a open faced bolt. When critical presuures/velocities are reached, Viscous flow dominates and cfm drops and air is wasted when you crank up the speed dial. Other than that it will have pretty much the same cfm @ lower and midrange pressures as an open face bolt while delivering a more streamlined (laminar) flow. This is the theory behind the Venturi bolt. And from low to high pressures an open face bolt can deliver a constant cfm all day long, just more turbulent, that's all. So I guess I would have to say cfm matters most, that is infact where the momentum is coming from; Mass*Velocity goes pretty much hand in hand with cfm. But as always there's a trillion other factors in the marker that impact bolt performance, including the shooter's style. Okay, maybe only a billion :rolleyes:

2) I talking more about the air impacting the ball in the breach. not so much the foamie or the next stacked ball. If you could have equal cfm delivered to the ball through two separate styled bolts but one has more linear momentum and laminar flow, which would be more efficient? Basically same as I just wrote above. The only thing that can be said for sure is that at higher pressures an open faced bolt is gentler on paint.

3) could you elaboarate more on the idea, sounds interesting. What are you getting at? Like a Banana? :dance:

[Beemer]

If I remember the Lvl 7 mag video correctly, TK talks a little about how their new Crown point barrel "gently released the ball" for more accurate shots. Basically, the driving idea behind a crown point barrel is that you'll relieve a great deal or turbulence from the front of the ball before it actually leaves the barrel. Man, TK was always ahead of the game, he knew what was up :headbang: . The same is true about modern ported barrels, that the air pressure in front of (and behind) the ball acts @ lower pressure resulting in lower natural turbulence. This method is more modern and better performing way to lower the in-barrel turbulence.
But remember way back in the day when almost all barrels were not ported? And how the J&J Brass barrels were sweet? :headbang: They weren't ported and had the same bores and functionality of basically every other barrel back then. But they used a much nicer micro-honed finish, and brass (commonly known as a "self-lubricating" material). This is the kind of example i wanted to show, how if rougue could somehow micro-hone or get a glassy interior bolt surface, his bolt would benefit from time proven technology.

It was thought at the time the Crown Point did something when it came out, but its all show no go. I like the shiny tips on mine.

All porting does is waste your air and muffle the sound some.


The funny thing about the visual descriptions in the pitch were that I beilieved them to be true in the 80's. I was convinced and sold them with that story. We actually had a pretty hot barrel way back then. No one liked the ringing though....

AGD



See this one

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21931&highlight=crown+point

Then this one

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22011&highlight=crown+point

And this one

http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/01_barrel_eff.shtml

Welcome to AO

Peace Out

___________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[RapidTransit]

3) could you elaboarate more on the idea, sounds interesting. What are you getting at? Like a Banana? :dance:
:dance: :dance: :dance: Helllzz yeah!! :headbang:
I was thinking towards the back of the bolt.

Small article on beehive springs http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_spring/

[PnueMagger]

:dance: :dance: :dance: Helllzz yeah!! :headbang:
I was thinking towards the back of the bolt.

Small article on beehive springs http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_spring/

So instead of using the automag spring, you are going to use a beehive spring. It's illegal to shoot over 1000fps you know. :nono:
Or use the behve spring behind the bolt to accelerate it :confused:
Use the beehive as the bolt?
I feel :tard: . I just cant visualize what you mean

BTW: I just ordered a Finising kit from DuraCoat, and I'm finishing off the raw pieces on my marker I just finished building. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189992 Color scheme...Pink/Chrome. :headbang: I think i'll call-it "lady-mag".

Rougue-sorry for puting this in your Bolt Thread, I had to share it w/ AO!
BTW-any updates on prototype 3? Try and use a beehive spring. I know you can pull it off!

[GT]

If I remember the Lvl 7 mag video correctly, TK talks a little about how their new Crown point barrel "gently released the ball" for more accurate shots. Basically, the driving idea behind a crown point barrel is that you'll relieve a great deal or turbulence from the front of the ball before it actually leaves the barrel. Man, TK was always ahead of the game, he knew what was up :headbang:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


You've never had a barrel break? I mean, crappy balls break all day long but I'm not really talking about that. Honing is the process of machining/finishing something to a specified tolereance, like a piston cylinder, or pb barrel. "Micro-honed" simply refers to micron ranged tolerances. I'm basically talking about the stock barrels and the low end value barrels on markers. Almost all (quality) after-market barrels do benefit from this.

You still have not answered my question:


Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?

Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.

That's not entirely true. Those barrels that are held to higher tolerances should perform better. The bore should be more consistant throughout the length of the barrel. But that is quite minimal.

[PnueMagger]

Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?

Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.

I didn't know we were arguning. My bad.

#1)Lots of company's make Micro-Honed barrels, and quite a few don't. Many Stock markers don't have micro honed barrels (Kingman, BE, VL, PMI, Dragun, etc.), spiral or straight rifled barrels (Thunderpig, CMI, Armson, etc.), and most generic brand value barrels. Just because a company "hones" a barrel does not mean it is "micro honed". Most of the generic and stock barrels I'm referring to are honed, but not micro-honed.
I already 'splained what "micro honing" was and, although I do not work for these companies, as a consumer I would hope that they all know the meaning of micro honing too. (Honed does not necessarily mean micro-honed)

Micron (n): 1E-6 meters
Hone (n,v): A tool with a rotating abrasive tip for enlarging holes to precise dimensions.
Micro-Honed (adj): duh... :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard:


#2)What...What... :spit_take How about length, bore, finish, and most importantly color! ;) Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence. Do you think engineers just turn on a hand-drill, close their eyes, and see what kind of porting they can make today? Your second statement is moronic and I would love to see you to back that crap up by playing some kind of tourney w/ a $2.99 eBay barrel.
On the same note though- I wold have to say that above $50-$60 all barrels perform pretty much the same. (unless you are using inserts for different bores/brands of paint). I shoot a 14" .691 or .692 [not sure anymore] Dye Excel. Not too expensive and performs like a dream even on rec paint.

This thread is about bolt design n.e.ways

[slade]

Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.
the effect a barrel will have in comparison to hype and pricing is greatly exaggerated, true, but the barrel does matter. have you ever shot a stock freestyle barrel? even looked at one? ...id take a pvc pipe over it. most good barrels, however, will perform about the same, and shoot well... the only noticeable differences will be length/cosmetic, and maybe sound/efficiency.


Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence. Do you think engineers just turn on a hand-drill, close their eyes, and see what kind of porting they can make today? Your second statement is moronic and I would love to see you to back that crap up by playing some kind of tourney w/ a $2.99 eBay barrel.
acutally, ive gotta argue with you there. people who design barrels basically do just take a drill to it in whatever pattern they think will work (or sell) well. you wont see any difference in accuracy from one bore design to the next, only efficiency, sound, and cosmetics.

i have a $4 ebay barrel. works fine.

[Beemer]

This thread is about bolt design n.e.ways

This is about all ya got right till your post #106. You brought it up. :ninja:

Man, I have to add "Im smarter then you in my Bio to. :spit_take


Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence. Do you think engineers just turn on a hand-drill, close their eyes, and see what kind of porting they can make today?

Yup I think thats exactly what they do. Got any proof or data from ANY barrel company that says how important the porting is or what exactly it does? Didnt think so. :cheers:

[PnueMagger]

Yup I think thats exactly what they do. Got any proof or data from ANY barrel company that says how important the porting is or what exactly it does? Didnt think so. :cheers:

"Most barrels are ported (or vented), which means that holes are drilled into the front of the barrel allowing the propellant to dissipate, decreasing both the turbulence of the air column following the ball out of the barrel" - Straight From Wikipedia

"The purpose of porting is this, when you fire a paintball, the gas you are using wants to expand as quickly as possible. With this in mind, gas can and will get around the paintball when the paintball stops accelerating in the barrel. This causes turbulence in front of the ball when the ball exits the barrel. This may cause the ball to travel in other directions besides straight. Porting is added to help decrease this turbulence, by giving the gas a secondary escape route." - OtterSC Customs Modifications

"Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence." - PneuMagger (Post 113)

Edit: I ordered one of those Cheapo barrels once and i could shoot curveballs 4/5 shots and break 1/5! I like to shoot Marbs too. Could've come in handy in a bunker once or twice though.

[nippinout]

The bolt face itself adds to the minor losses within the gas passages.

What I am curious about is any time required for laminar flow to develop. I'm confused if we are talking about actual Venturi effect, or the misnamed BS hype with bolt face patterns. It seems like it is used in both instances in this thread. Why are we worrying about Venturi effect anyway? It's just the decrease in pressure and increase in velocity due to flow restriction. That's just simple conservation. It makes no sense to me to try to utilize a pressure gradient to increase efficiency.

Hell, we could even say that a blow forward has LESS loss at the boundary layer because the bolt is travelling forward at high speed.

[PnueMagger]

What I am curious about is any time required for laminar flow to develop. ... That's just simple conservation. It makes no sense to me to try to utilize a pressure gradient to increase efficiency.

Hell, we could even say that a blow forward has LESS loss at the boundary layer because the bolt is travelling forward at high speed.

Hmmm. Never thought about it like that. good point. All the theory in the world doesn't help an argument if the thoery doesn't apply to a specific application.

So with the second statement.... All we need to do is get AGD to push this idea like WGP and SP pushed the Closed bolt thing. AGD with the comeback.

[Chronobreak]

Hmmm. Never thought about it like that. good point. All the theory in the world doesn't help an argument if the thoery doesn't apply to a specific application.

So with the second statement.... All we need to do is get AGD to push this idea like WGP and SP pushed the Closed bolt thing. AGD with the comeback.

i think they tried that with the lvl10.... :cool:

sean(spl) anything new?

[GT]

"Most barrels are ported (or vented), which means that holes are drilled into the front of the barrel allowing the propellant to dissipate, decreasing both the turbulence of the air column following the ball out of the barrel" - Straight From Wikipedia

"The purpose of porting is this, when you fire a paintball, the gas you are using wants to expand as quickly as possible. With this in mind, gas can and will get around the paintball when the paintball stops accelerating in the barrel. This causes turbulence in front of the ball when the ball exits the barrel. This may cause the ball to travel in other directions besides straight. Porting is added to help decrease this turbulence, by giving the gas a secondary escape route." - OtterSC Customs Modifications

"Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence." - PneuMagger (Post 113)

Edit: I ordered one of those Cheapo barrels once and i could shoot curveballs 4/5 shots and break 1/5! I like to shoot Marbs too. Could've come in handy in a bunker once or twice though.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You posted from Wikipedia, some guy over at Otter, and yourself. You sir are truly, head and sholders above academia(GT, 2006)!





Yup I think thats exactly what they do. Got any proof or data from ANY barrel company that says how important the porting is or what exactly it does? Didnt think so.


I think Beemer gets extra GT points today :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[AnthonyW]

I think its time to post some news now RougeFactor :) . I just want to but something new for my mag.

[mobsterboy]

hows this going Rogue? And how are the AO barrel bags going? Sorry to go off on a different tangent :ninja:

[RogueFactor]

I think its time to post some news now RougeFactor :) . I just want to but something new for my mag.

The news is....you spelled my name wrong. :wow: :)



hows this going Rogue? And how are the AO barrel bags going? Sorry to go off on a different tangent :ninja:

ULE bolt is coming along just fine. Still testing.

Barrel bags are in the production process. Hope to have them soon.

Thanks for the interest!

[AnthonyW]

Technically its all there just not the right order. :D.

[Dark Frost17]

ule bolt?......i am lost.... i thought the bolt was already light..... :ninja:

[st6212]

Remember the original Superbolt with the delrin sleeve.

I wonder if anyone still has one, or still using one.

[Stealth Fighter]

I have a couple questions for you Rogue.

Firstly, have you noticed any better efficiency using the bolt with a really light spring?

Can we look forward to a really light spring to coincide with the bolt?

Do you have any planned launch dates?

Are you going to create a preorder list or is there even going to be one?






Posted by st6212


Remember the original Superbolt with the delrin sleeve.

I wonder if anyone still has one, or still using one.


I had hunted and hunted for one. I am sure they would improve efficiency greatly, but from what I have read, the delrin wears down and breaks eventually.

[Z-man]

I had hunted and hunted for one. I am sure they would improve efficiency greatly, but from what I have read, the delrin wears down and breaks eventually.

I had one with my SFL. I never fired that bolt more than a few times however because I was afraid it would break like the prototype test ones had. The delrin bolts were actually a smaller diameter as well. It certainly was light though.

[RavishingEddie]

I have 2 :D . Considered buying a 3rd, but A-Tach-One got it.



--->



I am happy that you are persuing the whole light bolt and efficiency idea. My question is if you have taken into consideration a bolt that perfoms the same function of the lvl 10, which is no chop. A bolt that is efficient and light is really cool if you have eyes, but if you don't have eyes the lvl 10 will still be the way to go, for the mechs. I would really like to know if it would be as gentle on paint as the lvl 10 or at least considered the idea. Good luck and don't give up. :bounce: :bounce:

[Dark Frost17]

hahaha....maybe it will have a built in bumper..... :D

[st6212]

hahaha....maybe it will have a built in bumper..... :D

My guess is a ULE aluminium Level 10 bolt design with a thin stainless sleeve. But I think AGD had already experimented with that idea when they were designing the first Superbolt?

[warbeak2099]

No, their sleeve was made of delrin.

[st6212]

No, their sleeve was made of delrin.

I know that. But I think AGD may have experimented with other materials and designs till they finally decided on delrin.

[ThePixelGuru]

To the best of my knowledge, AGD gave up the delrin sleeve because it got chewed to **** by the bolt spring and needed to be replaced often. If you can't find even one, you'll never find replacements.

[VeeWee]

Last post on this subject was a while ago, just wondering if there is any new news?

[RapidTransit]

Nice of you to bump this I'm looking at the bolt right now and want to comment again. Rouge should check out my thread http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198361 on casidiam plating, like the level 10 the end of the bolt should be angled to not only shave weight but to also help the sear catch easier, and the face shouldn't be cuped and the edge should be rounded off. Just my .02 cents. :cheers:

[Carbon Blue]

Last post on this subject was a while ago, just wondering if there is any new news?



When I have something new to report, I will be posting it.

Until then, I like the discussion that people are having in this thread.

Have fun! Play with an Automag!!!
:)

[RogueFactor]

Last post on this subject was a while ago, just wondering if there is any new news?
Nothing new to report. Some more prototypes are in the works for some more testing. Its an arduous process :D


Rogue should check out my thread on casidiam platingChecked it out when you first posted :cheers:

[mobsterboy]

prob shouldnt do this
but bump
dont forget about us eager mag beavers

[RavishingEddie]

Are we looking at any new materials here like say Titanium?

[RogueFactor]

prob shouldnt do this
but bump
dont forget about us eager mag beavers

Still in testing, havent forgotten about the mag beavers. Working on another prototype already, hope it goes well :D



Are we looking at any new materials here like say Titanium?

No stone is going unturned. :ninja:

[mobsterboy]

Still in testing, havent forgotten about the mag beavers. Working on another prototype already, hope it goes well :D




No stone is going unturned. :ninja:

now for some rogue goodness...

http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/1883/dsc00771ca1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[slade]

Are we looking at any new materials here like say Titanium?
haha, titanium wouldnt be cheap to buy, and certainly wouldnt be cheap to machine.

[Piranti]

now for some rogue goodness...

http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/1883/dsc00771ca1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


What mainbody is that ? hard to tell with the tiny pic but doesn't seem to be either a Dallara or karta. Also to me looks better than either :headbang:

[mobsterboy]

dallara. Yeah, i didnt want to be a space hog.

[GT]

the mag beavers. :


uhhhhh...... :spit_take pics please :wow:

[nicad]

... No stone is going unturned. :ninja: Soo.. we are machining bolts out of STONE now are we? :p

[RoadDawg]

Soo.. we are machining bolts out of STONE now are we? :p

I wonder if it's moon rock. Because we all know that the gravity is less on the moon and it makes moon rocks superior to our inferior rocks. [hidden ATHF message]

[st6212]

Stone? Noo...it's a ULE bolt remember. It's all about the weight.....LEGO blocks me thinks :D

[FinchMan]

Soo.. we are machining bolts out of STONE now are we? :p

:spit_take

[slade]

Soo.. we are machining bolts out of STONE now are we? :p
of course! and if we machine the entire gun out of granite, the tolerances wont change with heat fluctuations ;)

[Lenny]

Bump!

Hey, Rogue, if you're ever looking for beta testers, I'd be interested. :D

But seriously, I would. :ninja:

[Dark Frost17]

is he still working on this?

[FlawleZ]

is he still working on this?

Yes.

[Lenny]

Soo... beta testers? :D

[RogueFactor]

Soo... beta testers? :D

Right now, I am the primary beta-tester. Once I get closer to a production prototype model, it may be a consideration.

[temps]

Any updates on progress?? Or is it still hush hush on features?

[Lenny]

Right now, I am the primary beta-tester. Once I get closer to a production prototype model, it may be a consideration.
Sweet. Put me on the list when it gets that far. I'm exited. :D

[shaunyoung000]

nice job rogue, will this work with lvl 10, or will it need eyes to keep from chopping. If lvl 10 system works with it, we may be doing some more business, I need a new mag..... :ninja:

[Warwitch]

Whats the scoop dude. This has to be the longest bolt build of all time! Youve been tempting people with this for over a year. You could have gotten a lot more testing done by doing a limited release to a controll group. Or do you just like the attention? (j/k) Seriously though, there has been so much speculation, put that baby to the test :headbang:

[RogueFactor]

Any updates on progress?? Or is it still hush hush on features?

The only update is that I am still testing. The features are still hush hush until I get closer to having something finalized.


nice job rogue, will this work with lvl 10, or will it need eyes to keep from chopping. If lvl 10 system works with it, we may be doing some more business, I need a new mag..... :ninja:

Thanks. :D The only detail currently available is its weight. No stone is going unturned, so both systems are being looked at and considered.


Whats the scoop dude. This has to be the longest bolt build of all time! Youve been tempting people with this for over a year. You could have gotten a lot more testing done by doing a limited release to a controll group. Or do you just like the attention? (j/k) Seriously though, there has been so much speculation, put that baby to the test :headbang:

Dude, the scoop is....being a small company with finite resources doesnt allow for limited releases. Prototypes arent cheap, and testing takes time. Since this is a prototype and not a production item, its gonna take time and was stated in the original post.

You must not be staying up on current events if you think this prototype is the longest build. There are production goods from other AO vendors going on 2+ years, and people are still waiting. :cry:

Remember, this doesnt make me money, it costs me money, until I have something I can produce. So I am more motivated than anyone to have something for you.

The only reason I let this project be known was because, at the time, everyone was moaning that nobody was doing anything for mags. This isnt the only project I have in the works, its just the only one you know about. :ninja:

I plan on taking as much time as necessary to do this right, and bring a product to market that does what it claims. If you cant wait that long, I understand. :cheers:

[BigEvil]

Forgive them oh mighty Roguefactor, for the scent of a new product hath diven them into a frenzy.

[Warwitch]

Forgive them oh mighty Roguefactor, for the scent of a new product hath diven them into a frenzy.

lol :hail:

I wasnt flaming. Sorry if it sounded that way. Maybe some of the people that want them most could help finance the project to speed things up. Contributers could get them first at a discount maybe?

[RogueFactor]

I wasnt flaming. Sorry if it sounded that way. Maybe some of the people that want them most could help finance the project to speed things up. Contributers could get them first at a discount maybe?

I know you werent, neither was I. :cheers: There isnt an easy-direct way to answer on the interweb without sounding harsh. Its never the intent, but it can come across like that.

Resources are more than just $$$. There is only so much time in the day, which is divided between production, quality control, managing sub-contractors, customer service, shipping/receiving, answering e-mails and then projects. Multiple projects, that run concurrently.

If you really want to contribute, buy more RPG gear. If the stuff I currently have flew out the door, I could simultaneously do larger runs, drop the prices, and make higher margins. I could take that cash and hire more staff to do the stuff that keeps me from focusing on the projects. Take a look at your marker, if its decked out in RPG wares, youre doing all you can to contribute.

Its a no-win. Folks gripe that nothing is new. Then, when you give them a sneak-peak, they gripe it isnt fast enough. If I speed it up, and something goes wrong...you gripe some more about why I didnt take the time to do it right.

Either way, at the end of the day...I am responsible for it if it bears the name RPG. Which is why I am taking my time to do it right :hail:

[Armory]

I understand Rogue alot people think that they see a product and say "Wow when can I get one 2 weeks?" But alot of people just don't understand time frame of manufacturing, alot should be taken with a grain of salt that they're not ripping they just want it NOW...
Don't sacrifice quality to apease the masses, Shooter did that and look what happened to him...

PS If you need a Draftsman/Designer, I mostly work for barter...

[Warwitch]

Too true. And there is somethig to be said for attention to detail. With the Mag being almost perfect to begin with there is no point in releasing anything less than spectacular.

Edit: fixed :rolleyes:

[11 Bravo]

^^^^^^ Wrong forum. :)

[spike_ball999]

Rouge, being a buisinessman, I'm sure you understand 'The Triangle'.

The idea is that you can only have it two of three ways:
http://img430.imageshack.us/img430/4336/butriig9.jpg

You can have it fast and cheap, but it won't be good.
You can have it fast and good, but it won't be cheap.
You can have it good and cheap, but it won't be fast.

:ninja:

So far it looks good. :headbang:

[11 Bravo]

^^^^^^^You've been talking to Coolhand. :)

[boggerman]

The Company was Toxic Toys, the bolt was made from Titanium with a plastic venturi insert and a small foam dot in the middle (which needed to be trimmed in half ;)), it was however made from two pieces of metal, the sear catching on the shelf/back part of the bolt. It cycled very quickly but due to the two part construction it fell apart. Also yes they made the spacer rings several years before AGD went down that route...these actually worked and they were colour coded to speed up the swapping out. They also did a version of the FFV (which was an aftermarket on/off valve originally created by John Bonich (Quantum Products)...which was first, FFV or The Toxic Toys one is a little unclear since they appeared around the same time. The Q-Tip by QP was about a year later. Toxic Toys also sold a Venom High line for the mag which Doc also started to make around the same time. I have no idea what happened to the company if they just stopped or went to another avenue of sales.

*edit* I guess they gave up http://www.venom.paintball.de/flash/index.html look at the last updated date
I actually have one of these bolts from Toxic Toys, it came in the first mag I ever bought. Little yellow foamie in the middle of the plastic venturi thing-a-ma-bob. I thought it was stainless, not titanium, but I could be wrong (it did happen once, a long time ago).

[slade]

I actually have one of these bolts from Toxic Toys, it came in the first mag I ever bought. Little yellow foamie in the middle of the plastic venturi thing-a-ma-bob. I thought it was stainless, not titanium, but I could be wrong (it did happen once, a long time ago).
probably, titanium would be far too expensive to make it worth it.

[mobsterboy]

i know im not supposed to
but
/prod prod poke poke

[RogueFactor]

i know im not supposed to
but
/prod prod poke poke

As it goes, I am not a part of a big company with huge resources. Production items that make money take priority. Its the only way to fund these projects. Still testing.

[warbeak2099]

God I need this bolt so badly.

[turbo chicken]

[QUOTE=MarkM]The Company was Toxic Toys, the bolt was made from Titanium with a plastic venturi insert and a small foam dot in the middle (which needed to be trimmed in half ;)), it was however made from two pieces of metal, the sear catching on the shelf/back part of the bolt. It cycled very quickly but due to the two part construction it fell apart.

QUOTE]


That's where that POS came from ... I was wondering where the bolt that came in my last mag purchase came from. I put a level 7 in it and all of my issues stopped... hmmm ... I offered to send it to someone who asked what aftermarket bolts he should look at ... so they could see that most(not all) aftermarket bolts are junk ...

ok now to read the rest of the post and edit ...

#edit## ok so the bole is still in production... just had to check...

[Demonio]

There's to much stuff here to read through so I'll just say- this sounds cool and I hope it makes it's way out to the masses this year. I have a few mags that could use one of these bolts.

Roguefactor you always have great stuff.

[RavishingEddie]

I just want a bolt that is light and air efficient. I can do without the LVL 10 antichop feature.

[warbeak2099]

I just want a bolt that is light and air efficient. I can do without the LVL 10 antichop feature.

Ditto. My loader can feed up to 25 and I don't shoot past 14-15. I'd gladly rely on my breakbeams.

[Nick E]

I just want a bolt that is light and air efficient. I can do without the LVL 10 antichop feature.

OMFG, I was going to send you an email asking about making a lighter lvl 7 bolt to try and increase efficiency on mags with eyes..holy crap, never even noticed this thread till now, lol.
Cool stuff, I think I might be purchasing a trigger soon.

[bentothejam1n]

eh?

[mpsd]

Holly thread ressurection, Batman!

Close this thing! It´s dead already! LOL