"Im ok with capped 15BPS ramping" - opinions?

[Lohman446]

I hear the comment from time to time where someone states something to the effect of "I'm ok with 15BPS capped ramping". Now, I understand that my ramping viewpoint is odd, so let me break it down a bit for this discussion, just to note where I stand.

1) I believe there is a risk of being injured with each paintball in the air. I think this risk is negligible.
2) If there is a risk, then every ball in that air contributes. However I do not think the individual balls are correlated. For instance if the chances of being injured by any individual ball is 1/Trillion the chance of being injured by five balls is not 5/Trillion but 1/trillion 1/trillion 1/trillion etc. Each ball is a seperate occurance and we cannot add them up. The first ball has nothing to do with the second or third, etc.
3) I don't use ramping - theres a liability issue with violating ASTM standards that has nothing to do with more balls in the air but to do with violating safety standards. Its a liability issue, not a safety issue.
4) I have no problem with ramping in game.

Now that that is out of the way. Why is 15BPS "acceptable" and not more? Personally I could care less if you are ramping at 15 or 30 when I play against you, I do not think, at my level of play, it will make much of a difference. Did someone decide 15 was safe but 16 was dangerous? Where did the magic 15 number come from? Why is it 15 and not 30 that you are ok with?

Edit: Let's not turn this into a discussion of cheating. Assume we are discussing ramping allowed by the rules of the field, and accepted by everyone playing.

[Duzzy]

My Opinion:

I think 15 is supposed to be an average. There are some who can hit 19 in short strings, some (Like me...) who can hit 7 (With an electro no less...). So they tried to find a reasonable average.

I also think that it is close to the 13 bps cap that was instituted way back when dinosaurs, automags, and autocockers ruled the Earth. So if they ever do get called on it then they can just say that they barely went over and some markers are capable of 45 cps so they really didn't go that much over.

Mind you I am completely ignorant about this but that is what I think.

[buzzboy]

Personally I find ramping to be pretty funny. One kid I play with used it once and I kept seeing him shoot like ten times and have his gun still be shooting when he ducked back down behind his bunker. What ever floats your boat. Not much more a chance to get injured as you said 1trillion to 1trillion.

[SpitFire1299]

Personally, I am OK with 15 or 30 as long as every shot was pulled by the player and not a computer chip.

I believe it should be a matter of the individual skill. If ROF is an important skill to have within the sport, one should benefit by being better at that skill. And those that arent would need to practice to become better at that skill.
I agree. 1 pull, 1 shot.. i dont care. 1 pull, 3 shots? thats just retarted. :(

I think ramping is a bunch of bull. I hate how people talk about the fast board that can ramp 45bps, and garbage like that.

Where is paintball going with ramping anyway? Same with all this speed hype. No one wants to have fun anymore, everyone just wants to be the best.

[punkncat]

I suppose as Rogue was saying, that 15BPS is the calculated liability risk that the officiating body/maufaturers are willing to take on. Thats the level at which they feel the desire players have to shoot ever faster balances with the risk of that ROF.

The thing to do would be to write one of the leagues and see if they can explain why they set that limit. I feel like it was a pretty good idea given the conditions before the cap was put in place.

[Lohman446]

This is important because it would be difficult to prove negligence if the ROF was within a majority of players capabilities. No manufacturer wants to be sued for negligence, it could be criminal. :nono:

You know my stance on that. There violating ASTM standards without proof that what they are doing is safe. There screwed - of course that is a non expert opinion

[Lohman446]

I suppose as Rogue was saying, that 15BPS is the calculated liability risk that the officiating body/maufaturers are willing to take on. Thats the level at which they feel the desire players have to shoot ever faster balances with the risk of that ROF.

The thing to do would be to write one of the leagues and see if they can explain why they set that limit. I feel like it was a pretty good idea given the conditions before the cap was put in place.

Perhaps, but I see it stated by people often enough on these boards, and there has to be a reason they have picked out that number. Right?

[peewee]

I know that I am old school. One pull one ball. If you are a freak of nature that can pull down +13 BPS more power to you. Personally I cant pull more than 11 for more than a second. But I do feel that we are walking a very dangerous line with ramping. I see very cavalier attitudes about it with a lot of the "if you cant handle it then you shouldn't be playing" comments made. The one thing I find extremely annoying is that the majority people owning these markers want to use them at every venue & type event. When they get told that they cant use them they throw a fit. I saw a first time female player get traumatized (literally had to be helped off the field) in a game where a bunch of guys with ramping markers kept shooting her. They ignored the fact that her hands were up.

[onedude36]

about the 1/trillion thing, one time i heard there was a law of probability. I believe it said that anything over 1/50,000 would never happen. not now, not in a gagillion years. is this total crap? i dont happen to think so, but i would like others input. meh kinda off topic but...

[SCpoloRicker]

I'm okay with it within controlled environments because it makes enforcement (relatively) feasible.

Its a line. It may prove to be too far, but the unlimited/loader-fed limits we were approaching were worse.

[Pha|anx]

I hear the comment from time to time where someone states something to the effect of "I'm ok with 15BPS capped ramping".To me it's not just the limit, it's the 'how' aswell. Personally I think anything more then 3 shots per pull is unnecessary. I have a video clip that sums up the major reason I detest some of the other forms... Have to edit it first and I'll try and upload it soon.


There are some who can hit 19 in short strings,Show me one person that can do that without bounce. Semi BPS has got to be the most over hyped aspect of paintball ever.

[Beemer]

1) I believe there is a risk of being injured with each paintball in the air. I think this risk is negligible at least.

If you can say that, then why wont you let me shoot you just ONCE? :argh: Since at your level of play the chances are higher that you will take more then one, right?

That negligible risk will depend on the level you play. IMO. That was my point in my thread.
If the players want to play like this why arent they smart enough to reduce or eliminate the risk by protecting themselves better. Is it because they dont know, care or both? You might want to re-evaluate your risk assement for the level you play and adjust your protective gear accordingly. Watch that vid I posted again. I bet he took at least three to the head. That was Two pro teams Legion and Trauma. The level of play will AFFECT how I suit up. Thats bs though right? I should suit up the same all the time. :confused: That bunke's head gear was not suited for the level of play, IMHO. Dont ask me ask a neurologist about head shots with a 3.5g ball at 300fps.[13 joules+}

You lost me on the odds. If its one in a hundred with one ball its five in a hundred with five balls.

Might as well be auto. Fifteen max. Oh wait lets call it ramping :spit_take

Not sure but I think they picked 15 cause after that you are really special. Its at the human limit. Butterfingers did a thread on it awhile back. There are some[few] that can really pull that fast or more but it is not a NORM. I would bet large that less then 10% of all Pros could pull that fast on a clean semi. Thats just my opinion I could be wrong. In which case I would Lose Large. :cheers:



You know my stance on that. There violating ASTM standards without proof that what they are doing is safe.

Like I said talk to a neurologist. I refer to that vid I posted again. Any proof that kind of play is safe with Current Head gear? Any proof it isnt? :ninja: Remind yourself of that guy over there that died from headshots.

Here is the clip I was talking about
http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/HeadShots.wmv

from this thread
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=187336

Be SAFE
Play FAIR
Have FUN

___________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[lather]

You know my stance on that. There violating ASTM standards without proof that what they are doing is safe. There screwed - of course that is a non expert opinion

ASTM standards are just a set of guidlines not law. Its my understanding that being in violation of ASTM standards will have little legal bearing unless a specific ASTM standard is adopted as Federal, State or Local law.

[Lohman446]

ASTM standards are just a set of guidlines not law. Its my understanding that being in violation of ASTM standards will have little legal bearing unless a specific ASTM standard is adopted as Federal, State or Local law.

When you are discussing if something you did was negligent or not safety standards that are not law can have an impact on the decision. I feel I am pretty safe when I stick to ASTM standards, in that I can point out that here are scientific standards that I was told, by the ASTM were safe. If I go outside of them, what do I have to point to to prove I was not negligent?

[Lohman446]

about the 1/trillion thing, one time i heard there was a law of probability. I believe it said that anything over 1/50,000 would never happen. not now, not in a gagillion years. is this total crap? i dont happen to think so, but i would like others input. meh kinda off topic but...

It's total crap. And my one in a trillion was a wild guess for example, obviously not a scientifically concluded number. The 1/50K thing. People win the lotto often with much high odds. People are struck be lightening, die in a plane accident, are killed by jellyfish, die of a heart attack in Disneys "Its a Small World" ride etc. from time to time. Without looking I would say those are all less likely to occur than that number.

[warbeak2099]

Do any of you use bounce in games with your mags? Reactive, rapid-fire, whatever you want to call it. Is that also unsafe since you are getting high rates of fire? Yea, but I don't see to many people on here complaining about that. Bouncing an RT valved mag can get you a lot higher than 15bps.

And what is the safe speed to you Lohman? What do you think it should be, I am interested to know. Because whatever number you choose, it's going to be a magic number like you said. If it's 13bps, then why not 14bps? I'm interested in hearing your idea of the "safe" speed.

[hardr0ck68]

Ok, the unfortunate thing i thing everyone is forgetting is "the bottom line". In this sport players vote with their wallet, not their respoce some thread on a happy little forum. When timmys came out they were the first cheater guns from the factory, people would drop the debounce and watch the bps go up up up. Timmys became "a fast gun" and the days of "he's fast on that trigger" were long gone.

Now i like what you guys are saying, i believe many of the same things. But its a joke to think that any standards or morals would stop bob long from doing it all again. What i would like to see is a league that is strictly grav feed and mechanical, i think that would bring some skill back to the game.

BTW, back in the days of honnest electros Chris lasoya won an award for being the fastest trigger at IAO, he pulled 13bps. Chris laysoa, angel, electro trigger, NO BOUNCE, no loader limitations = 13 bps. So when kiddies say "i his 24 easy" just understand they mean 8; its the rule of 3 people!!!.

[Lohman446]

Do any of you use bounce in games with your mags? Reactive, rapid-fire, whatever you want to call it. Is that also unsafe since you are getting high rates of fire? Yea, but I don't see to many people on here complaining about that. Bouncing an RT valved mag can get you a lot higher than 15bps.

And what is the safe speed to you Lohman? What do you think it should be, I am interested to know. Because whatever number you choose, it's going to be a magic number like you said. If it's 13bps, then why not 14bps? I'm interested in hearing your idea of the "safe" speed.

Because I don't think that there is a correlation between ball 1 and 2 or 3 or 4 I really could care less if we are ramping well in excess of the physical limits of loaders today. It would not pose such a risk that I would quit playing, or beleive playing was any more inherently dangerous than it is with one pull one shot.

[Lohman446]

Ok, the unfortunate thing i thing everyone is forgetting is "the bottom line". In this sport players vote with their wallet, not their respoce some thread on a happy little forum. When timmys came out they were the first cheater guns from the factory, people would drop the debounce and watch the bps go up up up. Timmys became "a fast gun" and the days of "he's fast on that trigger" were long gone.

Now i like what you guys are saying, i believe many of the same things. But its a joke to think that any standards or morals would stop bob long from doing it all again. What i would like to see is a league that is strictly grav feed and mechanical, i think that would bring some skill back to the game.

BTW, back in the days of honnest electros Chris lasoya won an award for being the fastest trigger at IAO, he pulled 13bps. Chris laysoa, angel, electro trigger, NO BOUNCE, no loader limitations = 13 bps. So when kiddies say "i his 24 easy" just understand they mean 8; its the rule of 3 people!!!.

This was never meant to be against ramping... I was just trying to figure out why 15 was hte magic "ok" number. I have no delusion of the bottom line. If I did I would post very little on this message board. That does not mean we, as players, cannot discuss it.

[Lohman446]

I believe 15 is the highest reasonable number achievable by most players.

This is important because it would be difficult to prove negligence if the ROF was within a majority of players capabilities. No manufacturer wants to be sued for negligence, it could be criminal. :nono:

So, a ramping marker just makes it easier to accomplish something that one would already be capable of doing with some practice.

How about this theory, or set of events

1) Before PSP had officially announced the change to 15BPS ramping SP had started to release markers with 15BPS capped ramping.
2) In my experience Shocker detents, fed by a halo, tend to fail past 15BPS and allow multiple balls to be fed causing breaks.
3) SP, and there sponsored teams, are a major part of PSP.

I think there is a reason for the cap at 15, I don't think it has anything to do with safety.

Edit: Just an added side note - the first few Shockers I had that had ramping ran 13 over the big red chronos... maybe there was a reason for that number being chosen as well.

[Coralis]

Personally I think its generally safer to have a marker that has to ramp to get to 15bps than one that can be shot in semi mode that fast. I know that sounds stupid when you first hear it but how many times have you seen these people with the triggers that are tuned so tight that the the gun shoots when the set it down etc. To me ramping is a better solution that the breathe on me trigger , 3 shot burst , full auto because of the control aspect of it , that being said 15 bps is a pretty insane rate of fire and probably too high for rec ball ( just my opinion there). I know I wouldnt want to take my 12 year old nephew out to his first game if everyone was shooting at that rate of fire because I doubt he would enjoy getting tore up when he make a natural noob mistake .

Well anyway thats my two cents on the issue.

[Lohman446]

Personally I think its generally safer to have a marker that has to ramp to get to 15bps than one that can be shot in semi mode that fast. I know that sounds stupid when you first hear but how many times have you seen these people with the triggers that are tuned so tight that the the gun shoots when the set it down etc. To me ramping is a better solution that the breath on me trigger , 3 shot burst , full auto because of the control aspect of it , that being said 15 bps is a pretty insane rate of fire and probably too high for rec ball ( just my opinion there). I know I wouldnt want to take my 12 year old nephew out to his first game if everyone was shooting at that rate of fire because I doubt he would enjoy getting tore up when he make a natural noob mistake .

Well anyway thats my two cents on the issue.

Those triggers are/were illegal under most major event rules as well as in clear violation of ASTM standards as well.

[warbeak2099]

I don't think you'll ever see the limit go down to 12-13 simply because it would sound bad to kids who are used to getting their guns as fast as possible. Is 13bps still enough to keep someone down behind a bunker? Yea, sure it is. Is it enough to lane or post, of course. But it doesn't sound cool. I wouldn't have a problem with 12-13bps capped ramping. But for now, 15bps is the lowest they're gonna go. And that's fine too. As long as it doesn't go above 15. I just think around 15 is a safe speed. And in response to the "well why not 16?" statement, you have to set the cap somewhere. Of coure there's going to be the magic number, there has to be. A tourny can't just say, "well, the cap is anywhere around 15."

[peewee]

hardr0ck68 Ok, the unfortunate thing i thing everyone is forgetting is "the bottom line". In this sport players vote with their wallet, not their respoce some thread on a happy little forum.

But is in an open discussion such as this that we as players can decide that we wont buy a particular item or voice our dislike of a product that is possibly dangerous & possibly have the manufacturers take note. I vote with my money. I will admit I had a ramping marker but got rid of it & I wont buy another.

[bleachit]

2) If there is a risk, then every ball in that air contributes. However I do not think the individual balls are correlated. For instance if the chances of being injured by any individual ball is 1/Trillion the chance of being injured by five balls is not 5/Trillion but 1/trillion 1/trillion 1/trillion etc. Each ball is a seperate occurance and we cannot add them up. The first ball has nothing to do with the second or third, etc.




I am going to disagree with you here. The correlation is not in how many balls are fired but in how fast the balls are fired. One paintball alone most likely will not injure you. However, repeated hits to one area will have an increased likelyhood of causing an injury. With a higher rate of fire you are putting more paint in the air, and the easier it is to do that the more accurate your string of balls is. So if I put 15 balls in one sec in the same 2 inches on an individual, then there is a very good chance its going to result in a lot of pain at the very least. If its in an exposed area on the head or neck, then more damage is very likely.

now, if I am only firing 10 balls per second, for instance, the paint is not coming as fast, and if you are not ramping, say just walking the trigger in "pure" semi mode, then your marker is probably wobblying around a bit. This means that your string of paint is not as likely to land in the same 2 inches as if you are ramping. The decrease in accuracy and lower ROF will mean less paint hitting the same area which may mean a less chance in a serious injury.

to be honest, I have never fired a ramping marker, so the accuracy compared with a 'pure' semi is speculation, so correct me if I am wrong. However, I have fired a semi e spyder and a full auto e spyder and the marker is more accurate in full auto over semi w/ trigger walking. That results from how you hold the marker, the full auto allowing you to hold tighter for a tighter shot grouping.

well thats my 2 cents.

[Lohman446]

You lost me on the odds. If its one in a hundred with one ball its five in a hundred with five balls.

Though bleachit makes an interesting counter argument for correlation I do not think so. Take this example. You and I decide to play Russian Roulette. Lets get rid of some things here - this gun is truly random on the spin, the weigth of the bullet, the mechanics of the gun, etc all have no factor. If you pull the trigger on the loaded cylinder it will go off, no misfires. Get rid of variables for the example.

I spin the cylinder and pull the trigger. 1/6 odds of it going off.
I spin the cylinder again and pull the trigger. Odds are still 1/6, no correlation to the pull before or after. This is how I beleive it is with paintballs, no correlation. If I spin the cylinder each time, and do it six times the odds are not 6/6 (perfect) that it will go off. No correlation. This is how I beleive balls in the air are. Or are more like, again bleachit raises a great point.

As to the one shot to a sensitive area. There is a massive difference between a ball fired at me and a ball fired with the intent to do as much harm as possible. I don't play with people who I beleive would do the second.

[bleachit]

whether or not someone intends to do the harm, if you stick your head out for 1 second and 15 balls hit you in the same spot.. its gonna hurt, a lot.

I still believe that the higher the bps the more chances of a serious injury. I understand where you are getting your odds from, but realistically repeated hits will begin to add up over time, something your odds are not taking into account


edit: I have never heard of an individual getting knocked or suffering a concussion from one hit to the head, but I have heard of instances where that happens when they are hit 15 plus times. not saying 1 ball hasnt knocked someone out or given them a concussion, because it is possible, just less likely than mulitple rounds doing the damage.

[Beemer]

Do any of you use bounce in games with your mags

No. The Mag RT is trigger return assist not pull assist. Not TRUE semi I agree but still 1 shot 1 pull The bolt and trig still does a full cycle. 800psi max and you need more then that to sweetspot, unless you mod it in some way or the sear is worn.


I think there is a reason for the cap at 15, I don't think it has anything to do with safety.

Hmm, intresting thought. The fact that gets me is it is still against ASTM Standards no matter how you look at it.


As to the one shot to a sensitive area. There is a massive difference between a ball fired at me and a ball fired with the intent to do as much harm as possible. I don't play with people who I beleive would do the second.

Ok, you miss my point. It was 1 shot for a test to see how people felt about it. When you step on the field at your level you are taking that chance on one shot, are you not?

No offense and not to sound conceited.[I am] I played play at or beyond your level. We were beating the pros when I stepped away from the tourny scene.

I have no intent and wish you no harm in the game EVER. Why would I want to bunker you if I dont think or know your protection is safe enough? So I come over the top or down the side to bunker you and snap shoot 3bps one of those is the Magic ball headshot that does you harm. Whats the odds? I have no intent. Now I do it at 15bps whats the odds now?

Heres the thought. If I step on your field at our level I will be protected for it and would like you to be also. If not then I certainly wouldnt bunker you. :headbang:

I agree with bleachit also.

Peace Out

to add Here is Butterfingers Thread
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119107&highlight=action+potentials

and another with High speed camera

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=543000

Here is 15bps.wav with ramping to 15 in the back ground
http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/15Shotssec.wav

[lather]

When you are discussing if something you did was negligent or not safety standards that are not law can have an impact on the decision. I feel I am pretty safe when I stick to ASTM standards, in that I can point out that here are scientific standards that I was told, by the ASTM were safe. If I go outside of them, what do I have to point to to prove I was not negligent?

Im no lawyer but I fail to see negligence if you are at an event which allows 15 bps ramping, injure someone, but your gun is legally set at 15 bps ramping. If you are following the rules of the event and as long as you had no malicious intent, there is not much to worry about.

I would think that most lawyers would prefer to target manufacturers and business rather than individuals--especially if said individual did not injure someone with the intent to cause harm.

Personally id feel more concerned with legalities if I shot my neighbor accidently with my 1 bps Phantom in my back yard, than shooting someone at 15 bps at a sanctioned event.

Im not a fan of ramping either and I agree with you in principle. However, I think that the legalities of exceeding ASTM standards would be much more of a concern to manufacturers rather than an individual, as long as the individual did not show intent to cause harm.

[mobsterboy]

no offense Lohman, but is there a reason why you keep asking these questions? (after all you are a repeated offender of ramping threads) does this help you sleep at night? Are you looking for a special answer that will make your dreams come true? they set it not for safety, but for evenness, for equality, so that the lesser guns wont get blown away by 30 bps guns. Its not safety, its leveling the playing field to an extent.

[-=Squid=-]

So I've decided that for every stupid opinion thread you make, you are Madball.

[stop whining buy a mag]

I kind of wonder why these threads are always brought up.

A 15 BPS cap is probably the best thing for the tournament scene. It does take away from the skill but most people don't care to cheat (shooting over 15 BPS) because right now the playing field is level from that stand point. I think the 15 BPS rule just has to be accepted. It's working and is safe. Paintball can be a dangerous sport so considering that no one has died yet, I'd call that close to safe. (I know that in every major PSP event some player gets knocked out from 3 balls to the head.)

I don't know why everyone worships the ATSM. It's really just a bunch of guidelines that are trying to keep some feeling of honor and integrity in the game. The ATSM is just the given guidelines in paintball, nothing more.

[Steelrat]

There are plenty of guns that violate ATSM standards other than with ramping, why is ramping so important? I'd guess that the paintball industry has yet to taste the full force of product-liability lawsuits, and that my explain the lax adherance to those standards.

On a personal reason, I despise ramping because it made naturally shooting fast, which I considered to be a "skill," irrelevant.

And as for the 15 bps limit, I'd go with Rogue on that one, in that it was generally considered the "norm."

[DaveSM]

I know that I am old school. One pull one ball. If you are a freak of nature that can pull down +13 BPS more power to you. Personally I cant pull more than 11 for more than a second. But I do feel that we are walking a very dangerous line with ramping. I see very cavalier attitudes about it with a lot of the "if you cant handle it then you shouldn't be playing" comments made. The one thing I find extremely annoying is that the majority people owning these markers want to use them at every venue & type event. When they get told that they cant use them they throw a fit. I saw a first time female player get traumatized (literally had to be helped off the field) in a game where a bunch of guys with ramping markers kept shooting her. They ignored the fact that her hands were up.

It's sad to hear this kind of story. Paintball shouldn't be like that. First timers should be able to enjoy playing it.

[Duzzy]

To me it's not just the limit, it's the 'how' aswell. Personally I think anything more then 3 shots per pull is unnecessary. I have a video clip that sums up the major reason I detest some of the other forms... Have to edit it first and I'll try and upload it soon.

Show me one person that can do that without bounce. Semi BPS has got to be the most over hyped aspect of paintball ever.


Good thing I never mentioned it being without bounce eh? In all seriousness, I was wrong. The highest in the AO "BPS Showdown" was about 16 and I mistakenly thought it was 19. Thank you for the "correction".

[zaqwert6]

Did someone decide 15 was safe but 16 was dangerous? Where did the magic 15 number come from?

Extensive ROF testing was done using a wide range of pro tourny teams and it was proven that only of a handfull of the most fastest shooters were capable of maintaining 15bps for anything near a full second on a truly LEGAL test rig.

Therefore it was felt that allowing ramping up to 15.xx would not provide a dramatic ROF advantage.

[Beemer]

Extensive ROF testing was done using a wide range of pro tourny teams and it was proven that only of a handfull of the most fastest shooters were capable of maintaining 15bps for anything near a full second on a truly LEGAL test rig.

Therefore it was felt that allowing ramping up to 15.xx would not provide a dramatic ROF advantage.

Like I said Im betting Large

_____________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemer2/respect.gif

[Lohman446]

no offense Lohman, but is there a reason why you keep asking these questions? (after all you are a repeated offender of ramping threads) does this help you sleep at night? Are you looking for a special answer that will make your dreams come true? they set it not for safety, but for evenness, for equality, so that the lesser guns wont get blown away by 30 bps guns. Its not safety, its leveling the playing field to an extent.

What's left to discuss. Bottom line, I'm all for ramping, I really don't care if you want to shoot at 30 balls per second. I personally don't use it but do not beleive it anymore inherently dangerous on the field than what we have now.

[Lohman446]

Heres the thought. If I step on your field at our level I will be protected for it and would like you to be also. If not then I certainly wouldnt bunker you. :headbang:

How about this. I know the risks of stepping onto the field. I provide myself protection within the rules to make this risk acceptable to myself. You provide protection to make the risk acceptable to you. Perhaps I am willing to accept more risk to my person than you are. However, the dangers of paintball to people playing at a certain level should be obvious and inherent. I know the risks of the protective gear I wear (or don't). Your level of protection is likely higher than mine, and it puts you to where you feel the risk is acceptable. I feel the risk is acceptable with my level of protection.

[Beemer]

Oh snap lets just play with 303s.

[bleachit]

However, the dangers of paintball to people playing at a certain level should be obvious and inherent.



and what level is that? the local field with walk ons? unless they ban ramping there, then people who are not aware of the risks will be subject to the same risk without knowing it.

[Lohman446]

and what level is that? the local field with walk ons? unless they ban ramping there, then people who are not aware of the risks will be subject to the same risk without knowing it.

My local field allows ramping. We also play some mixed groups. I have never seen a new player exposed to the close range bunkering. Those of us who participate in a "more aggressive" game do not use such tactics with newer players.

As to how should they be aware of it. Lets assume we are discussing a kid. There parent should certainly be aware of the aspect adn scope of the game they are allowing there child to participate in, perhaps by watching a few games first. The same goes for adults. Lets get rid of waivers and start signing "acknowledgements of inherent risk"

"I didn't know downhill skiing was dangerous" - I mean, certainly certain activities, especially sporting activities, require some degree of diligence by the participant in protecting there own safety. Take skiing for instance. Wearing a helment definetly makes it safer. I still don't. It's a risk I have accepted and I ski with equipment that makes the risk of injury, to myself, acceptable to me. Logically full head and neck gear would make paintball safer. And if you want to wear it more power to you. However, I play with equipment that makes the risk of injury, to myself, acceptable to me. See the pattern?

[onedude36]

It's total crap. And my one in a trillion was a wild guess for example, obviously not a scientifically concluded number. The 1/50K thing. People win the lotto often with much high odds. People are struck be lightening, die in a plane accident, are killed by jellyfish, die of a heart attack in Disneys "Its a Small World" ride etc. from time to time. Without looking I would say those are all less likely to occur than that number.
the odds of 'somone' winning the lottery are quite good. The odds of you winning it are next to nill. Same goes for the lightning and other examples. I can confidently say you will never win the lotto if there are 50,000 others vying for it too, providing you all have an equal chance to win.

[Beemer]

Lets assume we are discussing a kid.

Lets assume its your kid. How would you tell him, her to suit up?


There parent should certainly be aware of the aspect and scope of the game they are allowing there child to participate in

I agree but do you think that is true. I dont. The parents are less informed then the kids and the kids dont know dont care what is safe and what isnt.

[Lohman446]

Lets assume its your kid. How would you tell him, her to suit up?



I agree but do you think that is true. I dont. The parents are less informed then the kids and the kids dont know dont care what is safe and what isnt.


The only way my child is playing paintball without full head, chest, and neck protection is in a very controlled environment with me close by and a people I know well and can "control" the environment.

[magsRus]

I think it is Capped at 15BPS because they had a dart board and the dart hit either triple 5 or single 15 :rofl:

[68magOwner]

im "A OK" with ramping, almost everything i play is in psp mode, and, it dosent bother me in the least. I recently started using a revvy in psp mode, so, im not even shooting the full 15bps, and, im fine with that. I dont think its more dangerous, i dont think it takes away from the game, and i think it DOES reduce cheating, which, was the point of it in the first place.

[etjoyride]

I agree with the 1 pull 1 ball theory. I can lane pretty fast on an electro in true semi, but i don't think i can hold 15BPS for longer then 2-3 sec.(and everyone says i have fast fingers). The way i figure it, if you can pull 19BPS in true semi then you should be allowed to, but if you have to use ramping for it then whats the point?

[mobsterboy]

i personally only use ramping because my local field has their team practice at or above 15 bps, and if my natural skills of getting to 15+ bps arent getting used, why not ramp? I do have to say tho, its wierd. I dont really like the way it feels right now, but i guess i'll either get used to it or go back to semi on my angel

[phantomhitman]

Here is a question, why do you keep bringing this up lohman? There are so many arguments and threads about this, mainly centering on you and your astm facts, that there is no need to make another. You have made a few therads about it, as well as chimed in on every single started by someone else.
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183766&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183447&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=186135&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=186007&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183938&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183851&highlight=ramping)
Those are just a FEW examples. There is nothing to argue about ramping, you are either fine with it and walk onto the field or you hate it and just boycot ramping games. People call it whatever they want but the facts are all misconstrued and some people just type what they hear instead of know. There are already "misinformed" people in this therad. Just leave the ramping issue alone, you have beat it to death. When someone finally gets hurt THEN make a thread saying
I TOLD YOU SO!!11!!
Until then people are just messing up their keyboards.

[Lohman446]

Here is a question, why do you keep bringing this up lohman? There are so many arguments and threads about this, mainly centering on you and your astm facts, that there is no need to make another. You have made a few therads about it, as well as chimed in on every single started by someone else.
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183766&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183447&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=186135&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=186007&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183938&highlight=ramping)
lohman (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=183851&highlight=ramping)
Those are just a FEW examples. There is nothing to argue about ramping, you are either fine with it and walk onto the field or you hate it and just boycot ramping games. People call it whatever they want but the facts are all misconstrued and some people just type what they hear instead of know. There are already "misinformed" people in this therad. Just leave the ramping issue alone, you have beat it to death. When someone finally gets hurt THEN make a thread saying
I TOLD YOU SO!!11!!
Until then people are just messing up their keyboards.

Because, my current view on ramping is that I do not beleive it is dangerous. I was just curious of the feeling "Im ok with ramping but only at 15BPS"

[phantomhitman]

So are you going to post again when you hate ramping, and then again when you used ramping one game, and then again when you feel its needs to be discussed again? It is getting rediculous reading this over and over.
You either have secret feeling for this issue or you are flip flopping how you feel. In earlier posts you hated it, and then you said you are against it because of the "criminal act" that could follow a ramping incident. Now you are ok with it but you just want to know how others feel?! Dead horse man...dead horse

[PaintballSmurf13]

i think that the 15bps cap is a very interesting idea. I believe it basically makes all guns equal, at a reasonable speed, so that more focus can be put into the other aspects of the game.

I personally don't like it because i can shoot a lot faster than 15bps :shooting:

[Lohman446]

So are you going to post again when you hate ramping, and then again when you used ramping one game, and then again when you feel its needs to be discussed again? It is getting rediculous reading this over and over.
You either have secret feeling for this issue or you are flip flopping how you feel. In earlier posts you hated it, and then you said you are against it because of the "criminal act" that could follow a ramping incident. Now you are ok with it but you just want to know how others feel?! Dead horse man...dead horse

In earlier posts I Have said I had used it. I am ok with it on a safety / competetive level, but have an issue with personally using it because of liability. Its not that complex. I point out again, don't bother reading it, the thread title was pretty clear.

BTW, what does your post possibly contribute to any portion of this discussion? What purpose does it have?

[phantomhitman]

To put it simple I am just getting tired of the ramping issue. Everytime I read about it your name goes along with it. I am not just flaming you, but if you are invovled in every ramping thread by either starting it, or arguing with everyone about, it starts getting old.

Here is my opinion on your question
15 is the fastest the pro players could pull, so th flattened the playing field and capped the guns (that is the bs answer psp gave). Since only a few people could legally pull 15 or faster they just picked that and went with it. I honestly think they are not smart enough, or do not want to spend the cash to build a robot that test every single gun, to stop the cheaters. If you just cap the guns you basically let everyone go full auto and just measure the bps rate. Less time consuming to check, less money involved. I think you should send them an email stating your astm facts just to see what answer you would get back.

[Lohman446]

To put it simple I am just getting tired of the ramping issue. Everytime I read about it your name goes along with it. I am not just flaming you, but if you are invovled in every ramping thread by either starting it, or arguing with everyone about, it starts getting old.

Here is my opinion on your question
15 is the fastest the pro players could pull, so th flattened the playing field and capped the guns (that is the bs answer psp gave). Since only a few people could legally pull 15 or faster they just picked that and went with it. I honestly think they are not smart enough, or do not want to spend the cash to build a robot that test every single gun, to stop the cheaters. If you just cap the guns you basically let everyone go full auto and just measure the bps rate. Less time consuming to check, less money involved. I think you should send them an email stating your astm facts just to see what answer you would get back.

Who am I arguing with. We are having a discussion. Rogue and I may disagree on parts of it for instance, but I would not say anything in here was arguing.

[phantomhitman]

forget it, just carry on :hail:

[Arstron]

My thoughts on tournament rules and ramping...

10 bps for people ramping
15 bps for people shooting pure semi

Correct me if im wrong, but ramping was invented to even the field so slower shooting players can compete with faster shooting players. 10 bps is plenty fast enough for anyone, thats fast enough to empty a case of paint in 3.3 minutes. I have heard that people with ramping like it becuse they can run and shoot easier, thats fine, again 10 bps is plenty fast enough for that. Now if you are going to give people that use ramping advantages, why not give people that use pure semi and can pull the trigger fast enough an advantage also? I dont think anyone needs 15 bps personaly, but it would give people an incentive not to use ramping and a chance to choose how they want to play.

My other thoughts is to get rid of ramping and set a 10 bps limit that way the people that cant shoot fast arent so "helpless" :rolleyes:

[KRAKMT]

I will post more later but people are mixing their legal theories.

Maliciousness is an intentional tort.

Negligence is failure to act in a reasonable and prudent manner. Negligence as determined by 12 probably- non paintballers.

The sky diver case is a good example. It is inherently risky( I have done it) but that doesn’t mean the operators are not negligent at times. Failure to instruct the customer, heck failure to pack the parashoot right- not intentional. There is a case of a guy jumping with pins in his legs from previous accidents. Sued the company for failing to warn him that it was dangerous after he shattered his legs.(For the record I thought it was crap)

But is it reasonable to shoot 15 bps at someone? Reasonable as defined by your grandmother. How would your grandmother decide knowing the 15bps was in violation of a safety standard. You may think it is crap but a jury was sympathetic to the dumb skydiver.

[Lohman446]

But is it reasonable to shoot 15 bps at someone? Reasonable as defined by your grandmother. How would your grandmother decide knowing the 15bps was in violation of a safety standard. You may think it is crap but a jury was sympathetic to the dumb skydiver.

Obviously you are more knowledgeable than I am - but its basically what I was told when I brought it up in discussion with someone who knows. If you are ever asked to defend your actions in a sport, can you say "I had to do it to keep up, to compete" and have that be enough to sway a non-player's opinion?

[KRAKMT]

You might be able to say that but as we discussed before- you are not where the dollars are or who the girl who gets blasted is going to sue. She is going to sue the field for permitting players to violate the standards. I would have to think about it but at first glance I don't see the duty owed by a player to another player but might be necessary to establish in order to get to the manufacturor.

[Lohman446]

The interesting thing to me, at least for the purpose of this thread, is why was the number 15 arrived at. Why not 10? or 50? There have been a number of reasonable ideas given, I'm curious to others thoughts.

[VFX_Fenix]

I'll speculate that 15 was arrived at almost arbitrarily. Back in the begining of the electro movement there was a self imposed ROF cap on software (and in some cases mechanically) of 13bps with full auto/burst modes set to 10bps. I believe that the number 15 was picked as a "step forward" from the 13bps cap the industry previously placed on itself to reflect the "advancement" of the sport and new pace of the game in the shadow of unlimited ROF game formats and the increasing prevalence of enhanced firing modes.


Basically the industry didn't want to have to take a pervious stance (13bps cap) and agreed to allow enhanced firing modes which are difficult to detect quickly in some cases.

Take anything lower than 13bps and they'd have to admit that their previous collective decision was wrong and going back to 13bps would also imply a mistake on the part of the industry for causing an ROF arms race more serious than simply, "Yeah, we should be able to shoot at higher ROF's, just not unlimited ROF's."

[hitech]

It's quite possible that it was based on the fact that 15 is about the max most people can do on a true semi.

It's also possible that 10 is too slow and 20 is too fast. 15 is a nice round number in between. And it doesn't sound all that out of place.

:cheers:

[Kwaidd]

this has been a good thread to follow. I have enjoyed reading everyones thoughts. So, even though some folks feel they have seen/heard enough on the topic...i kinda appreciated havin it here for my own entertainment value.

as far as anything i have to add to it all...bleachit said something i was thinking about b4 i got to his post, and so i thought about it some more.

1 pull 1 ball. Someone shoots 9 balls per second, but because they are rapidly pulling the trigger are all the balls going to be in as tight a grouping? i would expect some movement and therefore a wider spread or less accuracy. If 1 or even 2 or 3 balls hit someone in the head or neck or both within a 3 second timespan b4 the person can call themselves out or get out of the way then i dont see where much harm/dmg can be accrued.
however, if someone because of some software is able to be throwing 15 bps with minimal trigger pull (less gun wobble, therefore tighter grouping/more accuracy) then i see the balls being alot more connected to each other and I perceive the harm factor/dmg to a certain body area more impacted by that.

Case in point, people used to be punished/killed by stoning/caning/beatings. One whack with a stick or one stone thrown hard will hurt, but wont normally kill someone. however, beign hit over and over and over and over by stones/punches (boxing deaths come to mind)/sticks could cause serious injury or worse.

On the flipside to that, i feel that aiming for someones head/face purposefully is irresponsible regardless of how well/safe our head/face protection is made. so, that said if people are aiming for areas other than the head...then ramping (or not pulling the trigger as many times to get the same number of balls = increased accuracy) would mean that there would be a tighter grouping to where the shooter was aiming and less chance to hit someone in the head lets say, therefore less chance for injury. Phew, that was alot of blather =p
Of course, thats just playing devils advocate saying what if people wouldnt aim for the head.

anyways, that was a mouthfull, and it came to me after several beers. take it as you want...hopefully you find entertainment value in it, as the rest of this thread has entertained me.


-Kw