State of the Industry

[RogueFactor]

Spoke with an industry insider today that said paintball sales are down 30% from last year, this info having been received from prominent retailers in the industry.

Whatever the cause of this downturn is immaterial for this thread.

The question becomes: Can paintball as we know it sustain itself if this is as good as it gets?


Consider this:
Manufacturers and retailers can only give out sponsorships if sales dictate the ability.

Pro teams can only attend the major circuits with sponsorship money; whether that be from manufacturer, or retail sponsors. It is otherwise to expensive.

Tournament circuits can only survive with team attendance and sponsorship/advertising dollars from manufactuers/retailers to remain the same size. Team attendance is predicated on the sponsorship dollars that come from manufactuers/retailers. Sponsorship/advertising dollars paid to the circuits also come from those same sponsors.


If the growth of paintball stagnates, or even declines the volume that has brought prices down thus far may inevitably rise based on economies of scale. So the question becomes:

Would you continue playing paintball if it cost MORE to play than it does now?

Consider the industry as we see it now:

Long-standing manufacturers have sold their place in the industry(Tippman, WGP, etc))
Other manufactuers have left the industry(Action Markers, G3PB/Jackel, KAPP, FreeFlow, etc)
Consolidation and merger attempts riddle the industry; Mfr's, and Tournie Circuits alike
Rumor of 'Pro' Players leaving the sport are abound
Talented Innovators supposedly leaving or being let go from their companies

If this is all true, where does it go from here?

[punkncat]

Well to be honest where CAN it go from here?

Markers have been at a standstill for the past several years. The ONLY thing to have really changed is weight and looks of the new markers vs. the older models. People are coming to the realization that its easy to buy a piece of used equipment for easily half the price of new that will perform JUST as well. The only thing you miss out on is the two weeks of everyone wanting to see your new marker.

Even more of the paintballing public have realized that given the average lifespan of the paintball player that there is no real need to build exceptional quality equpment. Look at the Trilogy and Ion.....

Many new players are being chased right out of the sport by the conditions of play at almost every local field. Its hard to find a game where someone with a ramping "flavor of the moment" isn't just waiting to hose them. Topped by the fact that this so called affordability is eaten up by the cost demand of the speed at which modern markers operate. So to get in a game like many of us actually started playing is nonexistant.

I think its no accident that paintball is in decline. It has killed itself. I see it shrinking in years to come and leveling out one again at a more conservative level.

In a way if prices do go up, maybe it will spur a movement back towards actually playing a game, rather than just hosing the other end of a playing field hoping to hit something.

[ThePixelGuru]

I think what determines if the industry survives is whether or not the companies can continue to make enough money off sales to turn a profit once paintball development stagnates. Let's face it, there's not much more we can do technology-wise from here. No one needs to shoot 45bps... You can't pull that fast, and no one's going to let you go full auto with it. We've done almost all we can to perfect the accuracy of a tiny, paint-filled sphere. Markers aren't going to get much better than this. Sure, they'll be a little smaller, lighter, and more consistent, but if your five year old marker can still compete very well, why change it? If you don't have to get a new marker every couple of years, sales per person go way down. And if companies don't have enough customers by then, they won't make enough money. I think that's what's going to determine if paintball survives or not.

[Steelrat]

I think one of the problems may be that the price point has moved too high. Its neat picking up your first spyder, but when you take it to a field and get mulched by someone sporting the latest DM or Intimidator, how often are you going to want to do that, if you can't afford to compete with their hardware? This is a hardware-driven sport, much more so than almost any other sport outside expensive ones like auto-racing. Equipment takes a back seat to skill in almost every other sport, from baseball to golf to fencing.

Plus, the sport seems targeted to those under 18, yet a truly cutting edge system now costs upwards of $2000 for everything. Thats just plain nuts.

[Boski51]

I think one of the problems may be that the price point has moved too high. Its neat picking up your first spyder, but when you take it to a field and get mulched by someone sporting the latest DM or Intimidator, how often are you going to want to do that, if you can't afford to compete with their hardware? This is a hardware-driven sport, much more so than almost any other sport outside expensive ones like auto-racing. Equipment takes a back seat to skill in almost every other sport, from baseball to golf to fencing.

Plus, the sport seems targeted to those under 18, yet a truly cutting edge system now costs upwards of $2000 for everything. Thats just plain nuts.

Steelrat is right on. I think the "Peter Principle" has hit PB. It has gotten promoted past its ability to produce. Think how expensive it is to play this game we love. Try playing at a tourny level for long without a sponsorship :wow:. Then top it off with rampent cheating and crappy attitudes from those people you play against.

Have you ever watch a game as a non PBer? With all the yelling and *****ing and throwing fits about bad calls and all the other BS.....

PB (tourny PB, that is) is killing itself because it became big business and business only operated on profit, nothing else.

I could not afford to play the yway I do now if the costs went up. I would switch to a pump and play less often. :cry:

[RoadDawg]

Well to be honest where CAN it go from here?

Markers have been at a standstill for the past several years. The ONLY thing to have really changed is weight and looks of the new markers vs. the older models. People are coming to the realization that its easy to buy a piece of used equipment for easily half the price of new that will perform JUST as well. The only thing you miss out on is the two weeks of everyone wanting to see your new marker.

Even more of the paintballing public have realized that given the average lifespan of the paintball player that there is no real need to build exceptional quality equpment. Look at the Trilogy and Ion.....

Many new players are being chased right out of the sport by the conditions of play at almost every local field. Its hard to find a game where someone with a ramping "flavor of the moment" isn't just waiting to hose them. Topped by the fact that this so called affordability is eaten up by the cost demand of the speed at which modern markers operate. So to get in a game like many of us actually started playing is nonexistant.

I think its no accident that paintball is in decline. It has killed itself. I see it shrinking in years to come and leveling out one again at a more conservative level.

In a way if prices do go up, maybe it will spur a movement back towards actually playing a game, rather than just hosing the other end of a playing field hoping to hit something.

wow... :hail:

[CoolHand]

Where can it go?

Down.

Will I still play if it gets more expensive?

Yup. I was playing when paint was still $120 a case. I'm not going anywhere, however, I might turn the ROF down on the old Viking a notch or two. ;)

I could compose a great big rant about the state of the industry, but for the sake of brevity, suffice to say that I enjoyed PB a great deal more before it was so "main stream", and it won't really hurt my feelings much to see it head back that way.

[Recon by Fire]

Now I have always heard that the majority of the paintball business is outlaw and woodsball and not the tournament scene. Assuming this to be true, then the tournaments can all crash, the sponsorships disappear, the pros go bye-bye, and to the rest of the paintball community things will go on. Maybe the paint cost will go up but woodsball always seems to be friendlier on past usage anyway. Maybe pump/stock will come back in style then.

[KJHawley]

I love threads like this, they make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...

Yeah, the "Cold War" of Paintball has finally caught up with everyone's wallets. When you factor in the at least moderate amount of skill, huge ROF, and seemingly endless amounts of paint that an experienced paintball player can throw at Robbie Newbie, it's no wonder paintball is experiencing some problems.

If you live anywhere near a bookstore, go look at the paintball magazines they have on the shelf. Leaf through the table of contents for most of them. It's all doom and gloom- leagues folding, companies going bankrupt, sportsmanship is gone...

I think it's time paintball went back to the woods.

Or, more accurately, that the media coverage of paintball went back to the woods. Several years ago, industry experts estimated that 75% of all paintball players are "outlaws", not tourney airball players. Magazines like APG and Paintball Sports now have regular columns from Special Ops.

Look at some of the newest paintball markers out there. AGD- the Tac One, the ultimate Scenario marker. Smart Parts? The SP-8. Even the Ion, you could say, is in some ways a step "down" from high-end tourney markers. And probably the biggest manufacturer of all- Tippmann- just introduced a PUMP GUN. And one specifically designed for outlaw use!

Airball is Dead. Or at least dying a slow, painful death. Like the Soviet Union.

Long Live Woodsball!

[stop whining buy a mag]

Airball is Dead. Or at least dying a slow, painful death. Like the Soviet Union.

Long Live Woodsball!

Airball won't die. The style of play most commonly associated with it will. It is true that many players of this game play rec games in the woods but there are those out there who like the fast paced games on an airball field. I'm just not patient enough for woods anymore. Playing pump helps some but when I can I'll take the DM4 and a case of paint out to the local airball field. Costs me about $70 and I only play once a month now so it isn't so bad on the wallet. Whoever said that marketing a sport that requires $2000 in gear to people under 18 is crazy is right. This is why the industry is slowing down. Lots of people are slowing down with the game and the little kiddies are tired of trying to keep up with the latest guns. For the past 3 years all the new high end markers have been similar. They try to stay in the 2 pound range while being able to shoot 20 BPS. There's no need to drop $1300 on a new gun because it is 1 pound lighter. Pick up the previous generation of that gun for about $600 and your set.

Hopefully this slowdown in the market will weed out the people who aren't serious about the sport. Hopefully this will raise the integrity levels.

[Rather]

I honestly think airball will cease to exist in a couple of years. If it were as popular as you say it was, thered still be a nice sized indoor airball field open here in TX.

While the 25% of players who do play tourney/airball do spend more on average, most of them try and find any excuse not to pay every single dollar of the regular price, putting the field out a few bucks just because they are tx storm or just because they have a sponsorship that has little to nothing to do with what they are trying to get out of paying for. Now sure if its an outdoor field then they will make up for that with the 75% of other people paying small amounts to play ona birthday or party. But if the field is airball only, I can promise they won't be getting too much back because everyone else wants to play woodsball for a lower cost and because all the 'pro' players will gather at the airball field (which is really just too many people with screaming wallets) and want to not get out gunned so bad. Sure that means better competition for those Air ballers, but how many people would that leave if about 75% of the people in your area didn't want to play there? How much money is that 25% of people willing to pay to play airball on a regular basis? Not tourney circut players, regular people with regular jobs with an irregular passion for playing the game. How long before they run out of money and decide to quit too? How many people would you loose because of overspending players?

I just sold off everything pb related (of any value) so I could make back some of the unholy amounts of money i spent playing, losing a job kind of cuts off your ability to feed hobbies and such. Having your hobby as your work is also murder too. I don't think i will ever play a single game of paintball again, ever. I'd have to be mace'd and dragged, kicking and screaming, before I even consider coming back to something as small as pump, years later. Was fun for the while i did play, but i really don't care for it anymore.

[Lohman446]

Techology has begun top plateau (sp) in paintball. If you compare technology from 2000 to technology from 2002 there was a major increase in performance. Midway through 2004 you had ramping made public to help spur sales, though for many that was not markers but aftermarket boards. What are the increases from 2004 to 2006. Some weight, some price concessions (Proto, one of the hot sellers), some efficiency. Most people have realized that what they have, or a marker a year old or so will do everything they need and there is no great advantage to upgrading entire markers. Perhaps some have upgraded there markers rather than buying new. Many people this year, perhaps faced with tighter budgets than last, have decided to wait to upgrade, or forego upgrading there equipment at all for next season.

[Lohman446]

I honestly think airball will cease to exist in a couple of years. If it were as popular as you say it was, thered still be a nice sized indoor airball field open here in TX.

While the 25% of players who do play tourney/airball do spend more on average, most of them try and find any excuse not to pay every single dollar of the regular price, putting the field out a few bucks just because they are tx storm or just because they have a sponsorship that has little to nothing to do with what they are trying to get out of paying for.

But if the field is airball only, I can promise they won't be getting too much back because everyone else wants to play woodsball for a lower cost and because all the 'pro' players will gather at the airball field (which is really just too many people with screaming wallets) and want to not get out gunned so bad. Sure that means better competition for those Air ballers, but how many people would that leave if about 75% of the people in your area didn't want to play there? How much money is that 25% of people willing to pay to play airball on a regular basis? Not tourney circut players, regular people with regular jobs with an irregular passion for playing the game. How long before they run out of money and decide to quit too? How many people would you loose because of overspending players?

Can we say egocentric?

[phantomhitman]

Good post, hopefully it leads to good discussion. My opinions stated below have nothing to do with the money aspect of paintball, only the game iteself.
Here is another question.
How does current, and future, state of paintball affect you anyway?. People can get up on a soapbox and state facts or simply say the sky is falling, but in the end people rarely listen. I hear gloom and doom of pb in every forum from alot of different people. It really doesnt matter at all, you will still go the field this weekend and play IF you still like to play. That is where the negative aspects start to come out of everyone...and the truth is revealed. Some people do not like the speedballers, tourney guys, or kids with fast guns. Others do not like the hype or "got to have items" in what they used to think was an underground sport. I will be the first to admit that the younger guys are mostly pricks and the average tourney guy can be a handful to deal with. It is unfortunate, but pb has nothing to do with those guys. These people were raised as idiots and there is not a real way to keep them in check. You cannot play them straight up and you cannot overshoot them. When players of the same sport cannot get along, fight and bicker about the smallest of things, and constantly point fingers at each other for ruining or holding back the sport it will not be long until the end. I play just about every version of pb (woods/rec/tourney/scenario) and I see people complaining more than playing. The gun makers are not making you shoot a guy 20 times, the hopper manufacturers are not making you shoot over 20 bps, and the clothing makers are not making you hate another for the clothes that they wear. It all comes down to the individual and how they play the game. I love playing with my team, they are all good sports that get out when hit, give each other props for good shots, and are not embarassed to get shot and go to the deadbox. It is becmong harder and harder to find a good game because people are generally tools, and you find this out when you step on the field with them. The demise of pb will come with the players, not the manufacturers, but people will not understand that.

On a side note it costs a ton to go to tourneys now. It cost my team $600 for entry and paint for a 3 man.....yes a 3 man. That doesnt include guns, gear, gas, or food. :wow:

[BigEvil]

This downturn was a long time coming.

When guys like Tom Kaye and Bud Orr abandone ship... you know that the ship is in trouble.

One of the biggest problems inherent to paintball is that you need alot of space to play. Land or 'space' is not cheap by any means. Think about how tough it is for an indoor field to survive if they have to pay a $8000 a month rent? How much overhead does the average paintball store have, and how much can it handle in order to make a profit?

On top of that, the markup on paintball gears is not as high as most people think. When you buy a $1200 marker, the buyer usually assumes that the seller is making at least $300 profit from it, when that is rarely the case.

Market forces will exert themselves on paintball just like ever other industry and a 'happy medium' will be established.

[shartley]

I think folks (in the "industry") are confusing “paintball” with the “industry” which sells to paintball players. There is a difference.

When paintball began there was no “industry” to support it, yet the game grew. We saw businesses come and go; fields, stores, and manufacturers. In fact most of them were only known by those local to them. And it used to be that these businesses supported the SPORT and activity. But now it seems we have changed gears and the businesses expect the SPORT to support THEM. And threads like this go to show how the mentality has changed.

Sorry folks, the Industry which supplies equipment to players is not PAINTBALL. And I believe that if the vast majority of the businesses were to just go away, the sport and activity which IS paintball will continue on. There will always be businesses to support the activity I believe all of us here love. But once those businesses begin to believe they ARE the activity there is a problem IMHO.

This is what we see in this thread (or the conception of it), businesses thinking they are paintball.

And let’s be honest, every industry has good years and bad. And it takes a LOT of bad years for an industry to disappear. But that does not mean the activity will also disappear though. On another note, can anyone think of any industries that have gone away in our lifetime? I can’t off the top of my head.

I will also point out that tournaments are not what sustains the sport. More players play on rec fields or on private property than play in tournaments. But we always see tournaments being used as a measuring stick for the sport. WHY?!?!?!?! Why measure the entire sport by the smallest portion of it? That is silly, and where the flaw comes in.

And as for if players will keep playing if they have to pay more….. They used to pay more and the sport GREW. And with the growth came price reductions, not the other way around. The way players participate or how often may change with increased prices, but those who truly love the game will continue to play in one form or another.

Now for “Pro” players leaving…. I personally don’t care. Pro players don’t make the sport, they gain from it. It is time folks realize that just because you want things to be one way does not make them that way. Tournaments don’t indicate the health of the sport, and pro players don’t either.

At least that is what I think on the matter… I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

ADDED: The title of the thread is accurate, what is inferred in the post IMHO is not. The state of the Industry is not the same as if the sport can survive or not with reduced sales and those in the INDUSTRY having to tighten their belts or find other activities to profit off.

[Muzikman]

Damn damn damn damn! I agree with Sam again. This has to quit happeneing ;)

[LudavicoSoldier]

IMHO the "Industry" needs to focus on supplying players with more places to play instead of more gear to play with. And not just places for "tourny" players to play either. Lets face it, the era of mom-and-pop paintball is very nearly drawing to a close. Fields need financial backing to be able to be successful. How about the big companies re-invest some of the money they are making into developing the playing infrastructure.

[KJHawley]

How does current, and future, state of paintball affect you anyway?. People can get up on a soapbox and state facts or simply say the sky is falling, but in the end people rarely listen. I hear gloom and doom of pb in every forum from alot of different people. It really doesnt matter at all, you will still go the field this weekend and play IF you still like to play.
Many people- myself included- DON'T like to play anymore, and for these very reasons. I started playing when everyone was using pumps, and I loved it. I've never had as much fun as I had when my friends and I were running around in the woods. Of course, we had a hard time finding places to play, we put non-playing bystanders in jeopardy by not having netting, etc., and we were undoubtedly shooting hot. So I can see the reason for playing at fields. But not airball, in its current state.


The gun makers are not making you shoot a guy 20 times, the hopper manufacturers are not making you shoot over 20 bps, and the clothing makers are not making you hate another for the clothes that they wear. It all comes down to the individual and how they play the game.
Except that individuals have these tools at their disposal, and a reason to use them. What it really comes down to is that person ORGANIZING the game- if the tournament promoters, and ESPECIALLY local field owners, tried to make THEIR game fair for everyone, this wouldn't be a problem.


I love playing with my team, they are all good sports that get out when hit, give each other props for good shots, and are not embarassed to get shot and go to the deadbox. It is becmong harder and harder to find a good game because people are generally tools, and you find this out when you step on the field with them.
Man, that's cool. If any of my local fields were filled with people like this, I'd play there every week. Wouldn't it be cool if all the players at your local field were there just for FUN, the refs enforced the safety rules to make sure everyone had fun, and the field owner set up the field and rules to make it fun for everyone?

[Steelrat]

I think folks (in the "industry") are confusing “paintball” with the “industry” which sells to paintball players. There is a difference.

When paintball began there was no “industry” to support it, yet the game grew. We saw businesses come and go; fields, stores, and manufacturers. In fact most of them were only known by those local to them. And it used to be that these businesses supported the SPORT and activity. But now it seems we have changed gears and the businesses expect the SPORT to support THEM. And threads like this go to show how the mentality has changed.

Sorry folks, the Industry which supplies equipment to players is not PAINTBALL. And I believe that if the vast majority of the businesses were to just go away, the sport and activity which IS paintball will continue on. There will always be businesses to support the activity I believe all of us here love. But once those businesses begin to believe they ARE the activity there is a problem IMHO.

This is what we see in this thread (or the conception of it), businesses thinking they are paintball.

And let’s be honest, every industry has good years and bad. And it takes a LOT of bad years for an industry to disappear. But that does not mean the activity will also disappear though. On another note, can anyone think of any industries that have gone away in our lifetime? I can’t off the top of my head.

I will also point out that tournaments are not what sustains the sport. More players play on rec fields or on private property than play in tournaments. But we always see tournaments being used as a measuring stick for the sport. WHY?!?!?!?! Why measure the entire sport by the smallest portion of it? That is silly, and where the flaw comes in.

And as for if players will keep playing if they have to pay more….. They used to pay more and the sport GREW. And with the growth came price reductions, not the other way around. The way players participate or how often may change with increased prices, but those who truly love the game will continue to play in one form or another.

Now for “Pro” players leaving…. I personally don’t care. Pro players don’t make the sport, they gain from it. It is time folks realize that just because you want things to be one way does not make them that way. Tournaments don’t indicate the health of the sport, and pro players don’t either.

At least that is what I think on the matter… I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

ADDED: The title of the thread is accurate, what is inferred in the post IMHO is not. The state of the Industry is not the same as if the sport can survive or not with reduced sales and those in the INDUSTRY having to tighten their belts or find other activities to profit off.

I think that it is unlikely that the sport will be able to return to what it once was.

I really found it interesting that sales have gone down 30%, even as I've noticed more and more paintball gear at major retailers like wal-mart, Dicks, Sports Authority, etc etc. I wonder where (goegraphically) the drops have been, and with what specific equipment.

[Steelrat]

IMHO the "Industry" needs to focus on supplying players with more places to play instead of more gear to play with. And not just places for "tourny" players to play either. Lets face it, the era of mom-and-pop paintball is very nearly drawing to a close. Fields need financial backing to be able to be successful. How about the big companies re-invest some of the money they are making into developing the playing infrastructure.

Thats a good point.

[shartley]

I think that it is unlikely that the sport will be able to return to what it once was.

No arguments there. I too do not believe it will ever revert to how it once was. The sport has always grown and morphed into different things. While some stay the same, others do not. We now have a surge of “old school” play, but that does not mean that the vast majority of players will go that direction again.

My point was that no matter what happens, things will continue. The sport is not determined by the industry, and if every company now associated with paintball was to suddenly disappear, new businesses would pop up to fill the void…. Why? Because the players will still want to play the game.




I really found it interesting that sales have gone down 30%, even as I've noticed more and more paintball gear at major retailers like wal-mart, Dicks, Sports Authority, etc etc. I wonder where (goegraphically) the drops have been, and with what specific equipment.
I tend to agree with this line of questioning as well. I know that some segments of the sport appear to be doing fantastic. And we have seen new businesses pop up catering to players that do not fit in the tournament/speedball categories. They also seem to be growing rather nicely.

[phantomhitman]

to add something to soldiers point:
There are a few mom'n'pop places that have grown over the years to huge forces. Places like pevs, sc village, paintball central (pbc) are starting to buy and open more and more fields. In the nc/va area they (pbc-pevs) are the premier fields and are quickly making it harder for new fields to start out, especially if they are close to them. That is the catch 22 beast though, you want a great field to play at but that means tons of money and bigger bank accounts required for starting fields.

[GT]

I'll be honest, I didn't read everyone's post becuase most of you suck. I am just kidding settle down. let me hit this from a different angle


Spoke with an industry insider today that said paintball sales are down 30% from last year, this info having been received from prominent retailers in the industry.


I swear, everytime I get up to take a piss there is a new marker comming out. Is the sales loss do to lower than expected sales of all products to include new products for this fiscal year or is this a normalized loss as compared to products sold this year that were also sold last year?

How are the mags doing compared to last year? I assume buisness is good since R&D still continues...

I don't pay any less for paint now than I did in '99 when I started palying. Infact new mag prices, Emag and RTP, are realitvily close to their 99 price with exception to thier new features. The industry as a whole can suck it, I only buy goods from a select few.

[LudavicoSoldier]

On a sepearate, but related topic (from my previous post)

We see so many people caught up in the "gun whore" mentality. Especially new players. It's one thing of have been playing for several years, and have a sizable collection. It's a different beast to have new players immediatly think that being a "gun whore" is a way to achieve status in this sport. The industry, as a money making machine, perpetuates this idea. The industry needs to be more focused on getting people to PLAY paintball, instead of on buying gear and BSing on the forums. Afterall, isnt paintball about getting out on the field and actually playing?

[SlartyBartFast]

The industry needs to be more focused on getting people to PLAY paintball, instead of on buying gear and BSing on the forums.

The "industry" shouldn't focus on anything any more than any other "industry" need focus on one sector or activity.

I too lament the overblown consumerism driving the paintball market, but who cares? I know that I can ignore the image conscious crowd and play without feeding the cash hungry machine.

But what sectors does the 30% drop in sales cover? From the posts on PBN, it would seem that fields aren’t doing any better than stores or distributors.

[KJHawley]

to add something to soldiers point:
There are a few mom'n'pop places that have grown over the years to huge forces. Places like pevs, sc village, paintball central (pbc) are starting to buy and open more and more fields. In the nc/va area they (pbc-pevs) are the premier fields and are quickly making it harder for new fields to start out, especially if they are close to them. That is the catch 22 beast though, you want a great field to play at but that means tons of money and bigger bank accounts required for starting fields.

This is SUCH a good point- by you and soldier. We're talking about these huge multinational companies who are making the markers and the paint, while the field owners are dominated by guys who are literally operating out of the back of a truck.

I've never played at any of the nationally known fields like SC village or Challenge Park, but I have played at one big enough to be featured in the Greg Hastings Paintball game, and of course numerous other fields. And I have yet to find something so basic as a restroom. IT's the 21st century: can't we at least have INDOOR PLUMBING when we play paintball?

[GT]

Rather,
You are starting to scare me. I think you need pro help ;)

Allow me to pontificate further at a macro scale:

There has been a litany of talk about equipment. You can split the industry into three slices; pump, semi auto or pre-Halo, and post Halo. Let's talk about the middle one in terms of Pre-Halo. I think there is a big difference in speed, not only from the loader but guns as well. If you guys recall the first round of electros and the introduction of the RT mech mags, electros where well capable of exceeding 13bps. I had a zip'ed angel and an RT, both of those killers could turn a hopper into a soup bowl quick.

From the introduction of the first semi-auto until the introduction of the Halo most high end guns were capable of the same ROF. Don't believe me? Test out an "authentic" RT (not the wussy boy watered down Al valve). Go shoot a real RT w/ an input at 850. A well seasoned RT is a site to see with a gravity feed loader. Or test out Besales Evo or a Splat Attack’s Revenge, insanely high rates of fire for slider triggers, well into the 15’s with the right fingers. Mostly, the difference between electors and mechs was the learning curve for trigger.

Modern paintball or pre halo: what was the difference between a spyder one and an RT? For all intents and purposes the RT, loader limited, was only a few balls faster but it was a lot more consistent and reliable. For the difference of one semester of books you got a gun that shot where you pointed it, was little faster, and would guarantee to work out of the box.

The biggest improvement in modern paintball, pre-halo, is reliability For those of you who have been around the block a few times, you probably did more research with regards to how reliable your next gun purchase would be, rather than how fast it could be. Who cares if it broke a little paint if your gun was out of order you might as well pack your bags and head home.

The Introduction of the Halo
I can’t tell you how many times I have seen the cheapest E spyder with a Halo and max flow at the local field. Add a nice barrel and flip it over to full auto, 3 shot, or auto response and you have a newbie renting killing machine. This is when things really started to change. Manufacturers were well aware that most people can’t shoot anywhere near 15bps and needed to justify the expense of a $150.00 loader and a new gun, which in turn renewed sales. Thus the birth of plethora of assisted firing modes.

To further illustrate the point. I ordered a Featherlite Viking. While waiting for this piece of art to show up I played with a Halo feed BKO. I pulled the trigger spring, set the trigger screws, added my tank, and mowed high end guns. For $300 I had a gun that was as fast, lighter, and ¼ the price of my new Viking. The only thing the Viking excelled at was efficiency, slightly more consistent, and keeping my gear bag warm. Once manufactures go the reliable and fast bit down all they needed was a Halo to feed it. This is when paintball changed.

I agree that if the industry falls paintball will still be played, however if you don’t think that the industry completely runs paintball you are dead wrong.

[RogueFactor]

I could not afford to play the yway I do now if the costs went up. I would switch to a pump and play less often. :cry:

So do you think paintball as we know can sustain itself if the players that play the sport cant afford to?

[phantomhitman]

So do you think paintball as we know can sustain itself if the players that play the sport cant afford to?

By paintball sustaining itself you mean the companies actually make money right? Or are you talking about the sport itself being popular?

The breaking point as far as playing goes is paint. You will never hear a person say I cannot play this weekend because I cannot afford air, or clothes, or a hopper. You do not need a $1000+ setup to play and can work your way up that level if wanted. The paint is the non stop killer that MAKES people stop playing. So if paint prices skyrocketed you would see a major slowdown in paintball. The sponsorships would dwindle down to only serious winning teams, it would be harder to get rec players to come back, and even serious tourney players would be forced to cut back. I still do not see how a box of plastic/jello/paint costs $45, but that is another arguement.

[RogueFactor]

By paintball sustaining itself you mean the companies actually make money right? Or are you talking about the sport itself being popular?

Its an open-ended question, meant for the individual to decide what it means to them.

[phantomhitman]

I am actually the Oracle, I ask question so deep and mind boggling that I make heads explode

I agree Rogue...but you are still a witch.


I have to go take a break now, my head hurts from pondering.

[phantomhitman]

long winded, sorry.

I do not consider fields as part of the industry. I think companies that make products are the industry. The players are the consumer obviously, so that leaves the field as the place of business I guess. One thing that fields rarely do is push away money from either side (consumer/industry). But the field makes money from each (buys guns paint cheaper and sell it as well as makes moeny from paying customers).

example
Kid buys an ion from the store/field shop. Field owner makes money and makes consumer happy. Kid pisses off another customer by shooting them too much and complains. Owner shrugs, warns the kid. Owner is making money from the gun, the paint the kid is shooting, the fees the kid paid for. However, he is going to lose money from other customers if this continues. Owner feels the heat but he explains that is how the game is played nowadays. He plays nice to everyone regardless of his true feelings, because that kid is making him a ton of money while the other rec players also bring in money but over a longer amount of time. Who is wrong in this scenario? The kid for being an idiot, owner for not wanting to lose money, or the other players for compalining, or just the current state of paintball for the image it produces?

The industry is looking for trends to make money on (as well as sell their current quality products), the field is looking for any way to make money, the true players are out to have fun, and the "image/tools" ballers are just there to be cool and generally act like idiots. In the above situation the owner could easily shut everyone up, allow only semi mode, make rules really strict (cannot shoot a player more than 5 times) without consequences, and have refs everywhere. He would then lose money from the ton of paint he sells to the shooters abd the fees lost if the players do not like the strict rules and decide to play elsewhere, so he wouldnt risk it. The kid will get away with the most he can because he doesnt know better.

It still all comes down to the morals vs money wether its a field owner wanting to make money from everyone, or industry willing to sell its soul for cash. In the end the player still controls everything, because no company can survive if customers do not support them.

[RogueFactor]

Many new players are being chased right out of the sport by the conditions of play at almost every local field.

So the conditions that are allowed by the industry(field operators) at the local fields is actually affecting the 'sport' of paintball and its growth?

Interesting....so the 'industry' and the 'sport' are dependent upon each other?

[punkncat]

So the conditions that are allowed by the industry(field operators) at the local fields is actually affecting the 'sport' of paintball and its growth?



How could it not? The two are linked together.

Many new people will be introduced to paintball at a local field. Their enjoyment of their first experiance will dictate how much more they will potentially spend on the sport through equipment. More people getting turned off by the first experiance not only cost future sales to that individual, but word of mouth to other potential players.


On a side note though. There are outside factors that really may have played a role in the loss in paintball revenue this year. Consider all the hurricanes, the loss of New Orleans and the damage throughout the entire gulf region. That has had a substantial economic impact on the entire nation.

When gas was costing around $4 a gallon I wasn't playing or spending near as much on the sport.....