Is The Mag Just Ahead of It's Time..?

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I've been thinking about things..and i came to the conclusion that maybe the reason for the Automags lack of public popularity is because maybe it's just ahead of it's time..that given time, people in paintball will come to realize that the simplicity of the mag's design will be shown to be superior to that of other guns..or i could just be wired up from a cup of coffee and not being able to sleep caused me to be seeing things..oh well..

[Jonneh]

Kind of ironic when you think that the way the gun works has remained the same for about 10 years.

So no.

[AGD]

Think of it like a V8 engine, how much has the basic V8 changed over the years? About the only thing new is computer control which is the same evolution markers are going through.

In the 50's and 60's cars were still evolving and you could put headers and carberators on them to get more performance. These were things that really made a difference and rightly so. By the time the 70's came around people were just dressing them up to get some performace but the out of the box performance was increasing. By the 80's and 90's the cars had become fully computer integrated and your best performance option was just a new chip.

You can think of paintguns in the same way. The first ones were pretty crappy and aftermarket stuff made a difference. Right now we are in the "dress it up for some performance but its mostly just looks" stage. In the future it's likely that the guns will be so integrated it woun't make sense to change things. How many guys change parts inside their Angels for more performance?

The time will come when playing will be more fun than working on your equipment. Reliability will be key because everything else is taken for granted. The biggest problem is you the customer, us designers don't get a clear idea of what you want. As you can see on this forum everyone wants different things. I personally feel that is because people are not working with all the facts, mostly myths. Myths, like paintball players wishes, go in all directions.

AGD

[manike]

Originally posted by AGD
The time will come when playing will be more fun than working on your equipment

Never! I refuse to let that happen ;) Over half the fun of this sport is the technology. It's great to have been involved in a sport and see the technology evolve so rapidly and so magnificently. I played back in the 10 round tubes and splatmaster days and it's great to see how far we have come :)


Originally posted by AGD
The biggest problem is you the customer, us designers don't get a clear idea of what you want. As you can see on this forum everyone wants different things.

That's why you need to play more Tom AND hire people that play. Sometimes just listening to your biggest fan club isn't necessarily going to help your products :)


Originally posted by AGD
I personally feel that is because people are not working with all the facts, mostly myths.

I agree 100% and we can only move away from such a situation by making people more informed. Just one more good reason to publish some more of your research... Remember discussing putting some of your slow motion photography onto the net years back? That would be a start.

I've been on the net paintball wise for a long time now and there is a changing of attitudes. Believe it or not people are becoming more educated and asking harder questions. But sometimes we still need more reference data to keep helping that. Open up that website of paintball myths debunct. :)

People still want to believe the hype unfortunately and it takes more work to shoot the hype down that is does to get it started. But it is happening, those of us that care just need more data to work from...

manike

[Russ]

I personally feel that is because people are not working with all the facts, mostly myths. Myths, like paintball players wishes, go in all directions.

Ain't that the truth! I feel a lot of it has to do with the demographics of the average paintball product purchaser. Teenager/young adult, who needs to feel that HIS stuff is THE best, longest shooting, fastest shooting, most consistent and MOST importantly, the prettiest on the field! The myths are started and perpetuated because after Joe paintball player spends a large lump of cash on a product, Joe PB needs to feel that it is the best. Facts get pushed aside for vanity. My gun rules! How many times is that said on the various internet forums?

[cledford]

I agree with Tom about the ultimate outcome of paintball hardware. It saddens me since half of my enjoyment with the sport comes from tinkering with the guns. I remember back when I was 17 years old buying an issue of APG that had a tutorial on how to cut a field-strip notch in your Nel-Spot 007. Those were the days, companies were producing markers, and Joe Blow was developing upgrades (ones that really worked) in his garage/basement just a quickly. Now with the technical level of markers at the point that they are (along with >$1000 price tags) who's going to trust a part/mod that wasn't certified by the factory? Who should? It's kinda like another hobby of mine - motorcycles. A very common upgrade to a bike is to add a performance, aftermarket pipe. My motorcycle (2000 Honda VFR) actually has a catalytic converter on it. When looking at an aftermarket pipe manufactured by Two-Brothers racing, I asked about inlets for the 02 sensors. (part of the emissions control system) Two Brother's point blank told me that there was no need for the inlets, and that I should either a) cut the sensors off, or b) roll them up and zip tie them to the frame. Now let's think about this for a second - Honda, a multi-billion dollar firm (that spends millions annually for R&D) puts O2 sensors on a fuel injected, computer controlled motorcycle, and Two Brothers says they aren't needed. When I asked what they had done to ensure their claim, they couldn't say. I submit that Two Brothers has just enough testing equipment to dyno bikes that have had their pipes installed, but no resources for determining the long term affect of such drastic advice. If you paid $10,000 for a fuel injected, asperation-controlled-by-computer motorcycle would you be cutting off sensors based on the advice of some racing hicks who have no where near the level of capital or design/engineering knowledge as the OEM?

I also agree with the myths statement by Tom. I still <TODAY> walk into stores and here things like "a cocker is the most accurate gun because it shoots closed bolt" or "this barrel with a million holes drilled into it is more accurate - because it's rifled."

Most of these myths are propagated by the manufactures of the dubious upgrades, or by self-proclaimed experts at the stores. Both factions have a vested interest in selling the snake oil - they make money from it. People like Tom have two choices - quietly put out the truth and hope it gets propagated by the grass roots, or loudly make assertions. With plan-A one never knows if the masses will get the message - but it's kinda the "high road." The other route insures that say the word that 8-hole mods are useless on current mags, but then the other vendor can claim that Tom is just trying to screw them out of business. Besides, if one doesn't understand the high level operation of the AIR valve, and the original need for the 8-hole mod, it still makes sense, right? (I mean 8 holes always sounds better then just one, especially if you don't know why the were originally needed, or no longer useful today...) That's where the myth parts comes into play also. Tom's damned if he does, and if he doesn't. I've also noticed that due to the small size of the PB community that manufactures show a lot of deference to each other - if Tom (Rightly so) was to go on record as saying loudly (not just at his site - but in interviews in such) that rifled barrels were for the most part a myth, that could hurt a relationship with another vendor that produces both barrels and guns, and who might be considering putting a warp-feed port on their marker. (Hypothetical example)

I'm not suggesting that Tom would sell out just to insure the viability of the warp-feed. I'm saying that unless something isn't an outright bogus claim that the big vendors seem to refrain from mud slinging. It's actually pretty cool given the depth of negative marketing that goes on in other industries...

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I must honestly say that i started this thread just to see what people thought about the subject..I think that i was a little vague when i asked if mags are ahead of their time..what I was trying to ask people if they think that maybe at this point in time are mags finally coming into their own (once again) and are showing that the hype is just that, hype. People need to see their markers for what they are and not put so much into what they here or read. I work in the computer industry and see this everyday. If Tom were to somehow snag Avanlanche would this really be good for the Mag or would it just be a superficial victory?

[mac2k4]

AGD
How many guys change parts inside their Angels for more performance?

actually i havn't changed anything on my angel performance wise
mine is completley stock dark angels(both) except one has red parts on her too. and breech knob on my 2nd angel i put a kapp one on it.

AGD edit" Mac, that was exactly my point, not many people internally mod their Angels."

[Chaos]

Bunny - Umm, i think its the coffee ;) mags have been around for years and years. I dont wanna get into the argument tho

Tom - Ummm, last I checked, when someone takes something like a supra, which is around 2-300hp stock, and put on upgrade after upgrade, and end up with someting like 900hp, thats one hell of an upgrade and not for looks. Tho true, the automotive industry and the paintball industry are VERY similar in SOOOO many ways, its scary when you really think about it.

Manike - I completely agree! I 'got out of paintball', for about 6 months, where I didn't play at all because i had to buy a car, but almost every night I'd tinker and play with my guns. Playing the sport is half the fun :)

[AGD]

Chaos,

I agree with you, a mod that doubles your horsepower really IS a good mod! Does buying a barrel double your accuracy?

AGD

[FooTemps]

The angel isn't really easily compared to a supra, skyline, or NSX. The car is the type with REAL performance potential, not full potential built in. If you want around 1000 hp then you need to spend about 25,000 for every fricken piece of crap performance mod there is to squeeze out every little bit of power. The angel has all the perforance built in, it has the 20 bps capability, it has the modes of fire, it has top performance and you can't really improve on it much more.

[AGD]

Foo,

Have you seen a video of the Angel at 20 bps? I saw a 1966 Corvette who's speedometer went to 160 mph....

AGD

[FooTemps]

No I haven't and I have no way to prove the angel does 20 bps. I'm just saying it shoots really fast and can't really double it's performance like many cars...

[bofh]

Originally posted by AGD
Foo,

Have you seen a video of the Angel at 20 bps? I saw a 1966 Corvette who's speedometer went to 160 mph....

AGD

Tom,
Don't make me remind you of the Grand Sport Corvettes... I'm not sure those had speedos however :)

[mac2k4]

well i've seen a lcd angel shoot 22pbs.
and i've had mine to 19

the guy shooting 22 shot his using the sexy angel program in full auto

but i've shot mine in semi to 19, just got lucky w/ a nice stream...

[dawump]

Think of it like a V8 engine,

So when is the govenment going to start legislating that Paintball markers have to include stuff that make them suck - like emissions equipment does on a V8? I wouldn't be a bit suprised.

Keith