PDA

View Full Version : Compressed Air Almost Didn' t Happen >> Here is Why



AGD
12-12-2001, 02:45 AM
All of AO,

While going through old subdirectories and deleting stuff I ran across these old files form 1991 that showed what we went through to get compressed air (nitrogen at the time) accepted into the paintball community. Remember, at that time it was us against the world and no one wanted to listen. The first letter I believe was going to be published in APG by the International Paintball Players Association (IPPA) and the second was our rebuttal. While your reading it think about how different a world it would be if compressed air never happened.

AGD

From the IPPA:

The majority of paintballers we've spoken with are very concerned about the explosive hazards of such a high-pressure gas.

If a hose leaks or a burst disc ruptures, the high-pressure nitrogen jetting out of the hole can slice through skin like a razor and if nitrogen gas enters the circulatory system, an embolism (gas bubble) can cause a fatal heart attack in a matter of seconds.

If one of the fittings blows at a joint, the escaping nitrogen will whip the metal-tipped hose with approximately four times the force of CO2 hard enough to rip through muscles and crush bones instantly.

And if nitrogen gas at 3,000 psi blew past a seal and into the valve housing of most currently manufactured paintguns, there is a real possibility of either the valve housing RUPTURING, exploding like a grenade or the power tube blowing out of the barrel like a bullet.

Current two-stage regulators with rupture-disc safeties are not safe.


AGD response:

Airgun Designs, Inc. has always been on the leading edge of paintball technology and in the middle of controversy. All of our products have met some form of resistance when they were first introduced but went on to become very successful in the marketplace. The Micro C/A was the first 12 gram changer to have a back check valve that held gas pressure at all times. This feature was banned from many tournaments. The 6-Pak+ changed cartridges so fast it was just like constant air and by the next season all but one of the national tournaments was back to CA. Our semi-auto the 68AUTOMAG when custom tuned, has recorded chrono strings as fast as 9 shots per second. This blurs the distinction between semi and full-auto and is prompting the major tournament directors to consider limiting the number of semi-auto's per team.

Nitrogen is our latest project causing the industry to stand up and take notice. In the world of paintball technology there are only three areas that can be improved on: 1) the paintballs, 2) the guns, and 3) the power source. As we all know, the guns have evolved tremendously while the paintballs and the power source have remained virtually unchanged. Nitrogen is our attempt to bring the power source into the twenty-first century. Nitrogen is advantageous because it is stored as compressed gas with no liquid. The disadvantage, and hence the safety issue, is that in order to store enough shots in a small tank the pressure can be as high as 2500 psi. Although these pressures are unfamiliar in the paintball industry, they are being safely used on a daily basis in other industries such as scuba (3000 psi venting into lungs), fire fighting (3000 psi plus high heat and flames), and welding (2500 psi plus explosive gases). Even closer to home are the nitrogen gas springs in hatch back cars that are under thousands of pounds of pressure.

Airgun Designs, Inc. has been a long-time supporter of the IPPA and applauds their efforts to establish safety standards for our industry. We feel that we are acting responsibly in not selling nitrogen systems until the safety questions have been answered. At the time of this writing, there are less than twelve nitrogen systems in existence. One of our systems has recently been tested by AUTHORIZED TESTING INC. a DOT proved testing facility and consultant to the IPPA on safety issues. Page seven of the report states "BASED UPON THE TEST DATA OBTAINED AND DOCUMENTED HEREIN, THE AIRGUN SYSTEM SUBMITTED FOR EVALUATION APPEARS TO BE WELL ENGINEERED AND HAS INHERENT PRESSURE CAPABILITIES WELL IN EXCESS OF THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH NORMAL USE." Complete copies of this report are available from Airgun Designs at no charge.

In the end the players will decide if they want to continue with co2 and the temperature/pressure fluctuations along with its contribution to global warming, or join Airgun Designs in the 21st century and enjoy the rewards that come from being on the leading edge.

Airgun Designs

the123
12-12-2001, 03:00 AM
Very interesting. I'm wondering about the injuries that the IPPA spoke of ever became a problem. I have yet to see a Compressed Air accident that sustained injuries. Not to say there aren't.. I think they are VERY far and few between.
Thankyou AGD for pushing the envelope on such a wonderful addition to Paintball. NEVER give up on those cutting-edge products!
Brian

Jonneh
12-12-2001, 03:43 AM
Tom Kaye: Fighting for Paintball Justice!

It could be a film!

ZeroXtreme
12-12-2001, 04:07 AM
Tom! You are the cause of all my expenses now! Since I got back into paintball, I have been spending huge amounts of cash on the stuff that you invented or helped invent!

Seriously though, I for one am very glad to know that the paintball industry is backed by a very dedicated and inovative company like AGD.

What comes into mind next is.... I wonder what Tom is cooking up in that head of his....

:D

Dubstar112
12-12-2001, 06:39 AM
Thank everything in the paintball world to AGD!

If AGD didnt come out with compressed air technology, Would someone else have done it? Was there other companies working on the same idea at the time?

thecavemankevin
12-12-2001, 07:50 AM
it really gives us insight into the past history of paintball.

I like the part about the mag being tested at 9bps!

Xzion
12-12-2001, 08:49 AM
I like the part about the mag being tested at 9bps!

The part that struck me funny wasnt the tested at 9BPS, but the "This blurs the distinction between semi and full-auto"

If they only knew then what we know now lol :D

billmi
12-12-2001, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by AGD
Our semi-auto the 68AUTOMAG when custom tuned, has recorded chrono strings as fast as 9 shots per second.


Very entertaining in light of where firepower is today.



In the end the players will decide if they want to continue with co2 and the temperature/pressure fluctuations along with its contribution to global warming...

Um, OK.
How praytell does condensing CO2 out of the atmosphere, packing it into a cylinder, and then re-releasing it into the atmosphere contribute to global warming? :-P

See you on the field,
-Bill

Webmaster
12-12-2001, 09:01 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the end the players will decide if they want to continue with co2 and the temperature/pressure fluctuations along with its contribution to global warming...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sounds like a party line just to add to the arguement. I am still on the side that global warming isnt even happening - at least not more than it should. I took a great glass on ice ages and how the earth goes through cycles. Start buying land in the Sahara and in latin america - everything north of South Dakota will be under a mile of ice in 10,000 years. The Sahara will be a jungle once again!!

ANYWAY - one other question...

If AGD was pushing a HPA system in 1991, why didnt they ever produce one until a few years ago? Sounds to me they could have cornered the market nearly 10 years ago!

ProjectMag
12-12-2001, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Webmaster
Start buying land in the Sahara and in latin america - everything north of South Dakota will be under a mile of ice in 10,000 years. The Sahara will be a jungle once again!!



Note to self: Cancel all current plans. Spend rest of life researching a 10,000 year life span, head to the Sahara, and buy a share of land to avoid ice age. ;)

Cliffio
12-12-2001, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by IPPA
slice through skin like a razor---cause a fatal heart attack in a matter of seconds---rip through muscles and crush bones instantly---exploding like a grenade---out of the barrel like a bullet.

all that for no shoot down??
PAAAlease, that wont EVER work
:rolleyes:
also---


ouch

Chaos
12-12-2001, 12:24 PM
I'm curious, since AGD introduced the nitrogen system, why were they never sold? The flatline didn't come into the industry untill much later than 1991 if I remember, and I dont recall AGD having any other system out on the market. Why didn't you guys have a tank out, since you said you had made 12 already in that letter, yet weren't selling them YET until the safety issues were resolved. I'm confused....

AGD Edit: " At the time we were one year backordered on Mags. With that backorder and all the hastle, we didn't think it was worth fighting about. Air America ended up using our design (with our blessing) and pushed it into the market by giving away free systems to the pros"

Muzikman
12-12-2001, 01:09 PM
I never had a class on global warming nor the ice ages, but I have done quite a bit of reading. Webby is right, if global warming never happened, everything would still be under the ice from at least the 41 parallel north and what ever parallel south. I am also a big believer in the snowball idea. Yes, the idea that at one point the entire earth was covered in ice. But hey, who am I besides some strange person that will die before the next ice age.

Hmm...never knew Tom was an environmentalist:)
I can see the headlines..."Paintball banned, CO2 usage causes global warming" :) next headline... "Breathing banned, CO2 exhaled causes global warming" :)

MajorDamage
12-12-2001, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by AGD
This blurs the distinction between semi and full-auto and is prompting the major tournament directors to consider limiting the number of semi-auto's per team.
Wow so they were gonna make some people use pumps and stuff? Weird. And yes, why didn't you make a nitrogen system 10 years ago? Did you forget to patten that also(I.E. Powerfeed)? AGD rules paintball!

ENDO!

rhetor22
12-12-2001, 03:24 PM
Tom, you are cool.

headcase
12-12-2001, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by MajorDamage

Wow so they were gonna make some people use pumps and stuff? Weird. And yes, why didn't you make a nitrogen system 10 years ago? Did you forget to patten that also(I.E. Powerfeed)? AGD rules paintball!

ENDO!

In '91 it wouldn't have been all that wierd. I played my first games in '91, it was right around that time when the PMI-3(VM-68), Tippman Pro-Am, Mags, Cockers, Typhoons, and who knows what other semi's were still pretty rare. Wasn't it '91 or '92 that the first team won a major tourney with semis?

AGD Edit: "The first major tourney to be won by semi's was the Line SI Masters. Won by Swarm using Mags!"

As usual, I might be crazy.

Later
SSDD

Oregon_pb_
12-12-2001, 04:17 PM
Some people Talk the talk


AGD walks the walk

nutz
12-12-2001, 05:23 PM
wow... very old school

thecavemankevin
12-12-2001, 06:15 PM
Yeah, if only back in 91 the IPPA saw angel's, emags, shockers....the entire electric revolution comming. I doubt that they would have made such a fuss.

Those darn envoromentalist' they whine about everything. Next you will be hearing them say that we should not be using those daisy cutters on the Al-Queda, because what did those flowers do to deserve getting blown up? ;)

hitech
12-12-2001, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by nutz
wow... very old school

Hey now, I'd been playing for many YEARS by '91. :D That's when I bought my first (and only, so far) semi.

BTAutoMag
12-12-2001, 07:49 PM
my dealer got ahold of a nitrogen system and when he hooked it up on his remote system(not on his body at the time) the remote line exploded and he almost lost his hearing in the process and almost got decapatated when the tank flew by his head. he was complaining to the company who designed that remote(i dont know which) that a 4500 psi remote blew up under 2500 psi of pressure. i dont know what he got out of it but he never used nitro again

ZeroXtreme
12-13-2001, 09:14 AM
Might have been a lemon in the production line. Besides, I know that the standard outputs on preset tanks are 800-850psi, and can reach 1200psi on regulated ones, so it definitely must have been a lemon.

[NA]WARLORD
12-13-2001, 01:17 PM
I remember when the automag was introduced, I was at the masters in hrmitage landing when a team known as Swarm, had them. Back then they rocked,still do IMO, but as usual, they were a lil pricer than a lot of us had. Some friends i had got rid of their signature series red/black Line SI bushmasters, and started using them. Thats when they were at there best, they also had a term, which back then was labled as "to aggresive" and had a rule made up to change their game play, it was known as "freight training", and after a few tournaments was banned. It was cool, basically they bum rushed the competition and surprised them before the other team had a chance to think, raw deal IMO. Anyway, thx for the history lesson Tom, and no matter how much we complain, we will always use AGD products.............

headcase
12-13-2001, 01:23 PM
I was looking at the NPPL rules the other day and saw the section on "freight training":


Originally from 2001 Official NPPL Rules
12.2 FREIGHT TRAINING
12.21. Freight training is the act of utilizing multiple players who move and act in such a manner so that the lead players, after being marked and eliminated, impede or prevent the timely elimination of other players in the train.
12.22. Judges will allow a freight train to continue, but will remove one player for each instance of continuing to play by any of the freight-training players. When the freight train stops, the players who took multiple hits will also be removed from play.

I had never heard of it before that.

Later
SSDD

[NA]WARLORD
12-13-2001, 11:20 PM
Yep that be the one. Bad Company were masters at it, back then, in the pump days. I sure do miss those guys, they were a great bunch of guys. Fun to play against, but with todays play ,freight training is acceptable, for instance, look at speedball, if that aint freight training i dont know what is. It sure did work tho, shame people have to rain on somones parade for being good...........

RobAGD
12-14-2001, 02:12 AM
[NA]WARLORD - Who did you use to play for ? I got the treat of a Bad Co Train my 3rd team pratice, I was such a nub I didn't really know what was going on, My team kind got the Idea when I started yelling like a complete freak.

I had a blast shooting up 4 of them before getting just plastered.

-Robert

[NA]WARLORD
12-15-2001, 01:09 AM
i used to play with the Swamp Rats in my early pump days but around the introduction of the Tippmann 68 special i jumped in with the Bushmen and been with them ever since.. also substituted on Radioactive a few times, best memory was the NPPL D.C. CUP in 94, that was fun !!!!!! Only national tourney i've ever played, back when All Americans had there integrity challenged by a founding member...hehe, we saw him in the act on the old fort field at Outdoor Adventures, shame shame.......

banzaimf
09-25-2002, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Webmaster
quote:....ANYWAY - one other question...

If AGD was pushing a HPA system in 1991, why didnt they ever produce one until a few years ago? Sounds to me they could have cornered the market nearly 10 years ago!

They did, look at the original Air America HPA systems.

I cobbled one together using a venom 300 bar on/off, an extra mag vert asa, and a stainless male to male npt threaded nut thing going straight into the reg....

ie, I was really dumb and had 3k psi running through a vert asa with the logic of, "well, it has to have a 800 psi pressure rating at a minimum, that means I get a burst of at LEAST 3200!"

Ahhhhh, the good ole' days

banzaimf

Hemlock86
09-25-2002, 07:36 AM
Has there ever been any incidents involving a Nitro tank exploding/breaking and hurting someone? They seem pretty safe to me. :D

Ed K.

dansim
09-25-2002, 07:54 AM
there has been when filling but i dont belive while playing