Interesting Thread on PBN about lobbing guns

[magman007]

hey ao, this is what we used to do, and im calling upon the illuminati to get to the bottom of this. Here is the thread, initially there is a bunch crap, but later on, Jack Woods of Planet eclipse comes into comment, and that is where it gets interesting.

heres the thread, discuss here.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1290668

[68magOwner]

read it, was interesting, but, in the end, i just dont care.

[BigEvil]

read it, was interesting, but, in the end, i just dont care.

funny because its true.

Actually, I thing its interesting how when stupid things are said about a paintball product, the companies have to jump into it quickly to do damage control before it gets out of hand. PBN does reach a pretty big group of people, and its easy to get false rumors going.

Maybe if AGD could have been able to do that say circa 1997 mags wouldnt have gotten the bad rap they didnt deserve.

[Steelrat]

Wow, I love reading all the sycophants kissing Jack Wood's butt over there.

Here is the big problem I have with the explanation that the way the gun shoots affects the trajectory of the balls. If this were true, shouldn't there be guns that have balls that arc left and right consistently, or even curve up a bit, like those from a flatline? I mean, if the guns affect ball flight, why should it always make the ball curve downwards? That makes no sense.

[paint magnet]

When I read the title, I thought it was about throwing markers...oh well, time for some sleep.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Because imagine if a manufacturer said, our balls swing left! While another manufacturer said, ours swing right! Imagine the horror! The confusion!

Az

[Troen]

hey ao, this is what we used to do, and im calling upon the illuminati to get to the bottom of this. Here is the thread, initially there is a bunch crap, but later on, Jack Woods of Planet eclipse comes into comment, and that is where it gets interesting.

heres the thread, discuss here.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1290668

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=18950606#post18950606 :dance: :dance: :hail:

[Troen]

wasnt virtue banned for making false clames and bashing other products? thats the same thing jack wood's doing. someone should bring up the elfs argument.

[magman007]

wasnt virtue banned for making false clames and bashing other products? thats the same thing jack wood's doing. someone should bring up the elfs argument.


wouldnt say Jack Wood is bashing a product, more defending his own. I think it is pretty cool that manufacturers still visit boards, especually one as big as planet has grown. Do i believe what jack is saying? not in the slightest.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

wasnt virtue banned for making false clames and bashing other products? thats the same thing jack wood's doing. someone should bring up the elfs argument.

Virtue was banned because they spammed the forums. They created various usernames and used them to specifically badmouth other boards and spam for their own.

[punkncat]

Oh Pull>>>eeeeze!!!!

[Troen]

i got bored and i made this. can anyone tell me which one will go further? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Troen/Gunargumentjpeg.jpg
elfs are in the bottom gun.

[Duzzy]

^

"Gun B" because not only does it have elves, but it isn't affected by gravity like "Gun A".

[Troen]

^

"Gun B" because not only does it have elves, but it isn't affected by gravity like "Gun A".
gravity goes for both

[Duzzy]

;)

Ya, I know. I was just being a pain. :D

[dahoeb]

haha nice drawing troen.
its hard to believe that people will actually believe whatever the manufacturer tells them, about trajectory, range, elves...etc etc. i guess if you make something so simple sound really really complicated, you can still confuse some people into believe what you want them to.

[matt-o]

http://media.putfile.com/ego-lobbing
this is supposed to be evidence of egos "lobbing"? not only does it not compare with other guns, it dosnt give us any data or numbers to look at. and youi cant even notice the arc on the shots, hes not shooting anywhere near the gun's full range

[Troen]

haha nice drawing troen.
its hard to believe that people will actually believe whatever the manufacturer tells them, about trajectory, range, elves...etc etc. i guess if you make something so simple sound really really complicated, you can still confuse some people into believe what you want them to.
thanks alot. IONS ARE HIGH END. manufacters rumors are hard to ignore. EGOS DONT BOUNCE. some people just have learn that their fingers dont move onto a peice of metal seventeen times in a second, having a gun "capable" of 30 is pointless.BUY SMARTPARTS oh well, what can you do?


http://media.putfile.com/ego-lobbing
this is supposed to be evidence of egos "lobbing"? not only does it not compare with other guns, it dosnt give us any data or numbers to look at. and youi cant even notice the arc on the shots, hes not shooting anywhere near the gun's full range
i dont see anything, the balls go straight towards the tree, its hard to tell if the gun is angled.

[peewee]

I hate to have to say this but that thread had no intellectual value until people from AO started posting. ;)

[Teamslayer76]

That was a waste of my time. I thought they were talking about throwing the guns! Damnit! :(

[GT]

I just posted. Problem solved. I gave them the plain ol' AO, Get up ot Shut up.


gt

[Steelrat]

Why the hell is everyone treating Jack Wood with such kid gloves? He made a rather exceptional claim, then refused to back it up with evidence, because it was a trade secret, or something to that effect. I remember that Ethan from Freeflow was regularly flogged whenever he showed up on that forum, due to some of his claims, like the boring and honing.

[GT]

Why the hell is everyone treating Jack Wood with such kid gloves? He made a rather exceptional claim, then refused to back it up with evidence, because it was a trade secret, or something to that effect. I remember that Ethan from Freeflow was regularly flogged whenever he showed up on that forum, due to some of his claims, like the boring and honing.


if it were AO, i would have no problem straight out calling BS. Problem is I might get baned, which doesnt solve any problems. I think my post had a sufficient challenge for him. Lets see if he takes the bait.

[Dark Side]

hehe, 9.8m/s^2 How many people on PBnation now what terminal velocity is. maybe it should have been said that it is only that max acceleration that gravity will induce. I miss Physics class.

[minimag03]

I seriously don't see how those people could believe that guy after what he said.


Jack "The Ego shoots more accurate at close range"

Magman "How?"

Jack "I can't tell you, but I'm smart so I must be right"

[magman007]

if it were AO, i would have no problem straight out calling BS. Problem is I might get baned, which doesnt solve any problems. I think my post had a sufficient challenge for him. Lets see if he takes the bait.


EXACTLY Gt, thats why i am typing so cordially, and i have to have respect for the man, he must be doing something right to have one of the most popular markers in the industry, and to have the most popular upgrade electro frame for the cocker.

[spacedtedybear]

Here is my view in all of this stuff:

If one were to use your elementary equations from physics learned in highschool, you can determine the motion (its position) of the projectile. Simple enough since your basic highschool equations are functions with respect to time.

If you were to include air resistence, everything gets a little tricky. The equations of motion now are now dependant on velocity and the property of the projectile in question. Still not too bad; you just need a little bit of calculus, and a table of integrals

When you involve spin it all goes to hell, since the magnus effect (a reference people are so fond of using) is dependant on the drag forces mentioned above, as well as the rotational velocity of the ball with respect to the linear direction of the ball. This then requires vector cross product, which personally, is a pain in the feedneck to do. THe magnus effect also depends on the coefficient of kinetic friction, as a rougher surface is capable of "grabbing" more air. Then there's also the little seam on the ball as well, and the fact that it's filled with a semi-viscous liquid.

Look at the flatline and the apex barrels. They work as advertised, but if you've ever been on both ends of the barrels, you know that both barrels have really poor grouping. That is because the barrels can't guarantee a fixed rotational velocity of the ball, as well as a fixed seam position.

End rant.

[Carbon]

You know, i'll be honest with ya, the classic PBN "flatter tajectory/lobbing gun" convo.; i revel at the chance to be an internet dick head, just for my own sheer amusement. I know its not helping but, i just get a kick out of essentially saying"Get the F*** real!"

Only on PBN tho! :D

[magman007]

STUFF JUST GOT INTERESTING!!!

check out docs replies. Jackwoodowned

[Maghog]

All of that discussion would have been much better spent on actually tossing Ego's through the air than debating something that has already been proven.

[Ace12GA]

I have to say I am becoming rather fond of Doc, His replies were right along what I was thinking. What a pointless argument. Its like the closed vs open bolt argument.

[MntlHazrd]

...and yet i dont see why so many people still have a problem with paintball, it seems so very educational

[Troen]

bump. jack wood finally decided to start defending himself. i hope he sees my picture.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=19247173#post19247173
Quote: I stated very clearly several times, that with a certain paint size, certain barrel bore and certain length and style of barrel and bolt, the Ego will shoot with a flatter trajectory in its initial phase. This is only because there is spin imparted on the ball. With a different barrel, paint etc etc it is possible to get the reverse effect. I can tell you that if you fire enough paintballs through one barrel (even better, Reballs) it is very obvious where and why this spin is created. I have my proof, and anybody else with the inclination time and resources is more than capable of replicating the results. You just have to be bothered enough to go out and do it.

[luke@york]

i must admit i found it a boring read.................

and what do a load of 16 year olds know about this stuff
taken from pbnation
"what is the exact level of jacks education?
there are 2 systems and related equations one inside the barrel, and one outside the barrel. its pretty easy. you have linear kinematics and you have the rotational equivelents and add a little fluid dynamics. once the ball leaves the barrel it is in free fall, x and y components of the trajectory are independent. the only thing that will make the trajectory flatter is some sort of spin, or lack thereof. think bernoullis principle. a crosswind will also have an effect.
from 2 different inertial frames of reference things will appear quite different. maybe jack is doing his measurements from a train moving close to the speed of light?"

[UTDragun]

Doc owns. (period)
It seems that I was right all along! sweet!
Mark one for the college engineer major!


http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/humiliation.jpg
^Jackin Woodys

[Rudz]

i had to bring up the elves..i just had to..lol jack woods got owned by doc, and tk..good job magman, damn AO just invaded the damn ego forum, lol...we setting up shop there now to regulary harass jack woods?

[punkncat]

"How "old" am I?

I hope you mean "old" as in I have been playing paintball for 19 years!

And who said anything about defying physics? You are the one saying something defies physics, when you clearly have no right to be making that claim. Just because you can't be bothered, or don't care to take the time to understand some other fundimentals of phsics besides perfect ballistic scenarios, you shouldn't really contradict someone who has.

Unfortunately ballistics of a paintball in the "real world" are a lot more complex than high-school physics would lead you to believe. It is an increadably complex system that has not been anywhere near to being fully modelled. And unless the military sudenly has a desperate desire to fire liquid-filled gelatin-encapsulated sherical objects, I doubt it ever will.

Jack Wood

(Age 33 Years)
Reply With Quote


I find it funny that Jack Woods got it right after all these years. He must have stolen TK's notes..... :cool:

I suppose this was a little out of context. Reading through the linked post this reference makes sense.

[phelix]

I'll just quote to my PBN post that accurately describes my opinion on the matter.


Since I don't have a company or a PBN reputation to protect, I will say it. Jack Wood, you are either a liar or an idiot. Perhaps both. You don't have top-secret elves that make your paintballs fly farther, nor do you have a technology that can precisely spin a ball of jello. How come you never mentioned this before this thread came up?

Is gaining a few sales from numbskull agg ***s really worth losing the respect of every single educated person in the paintball community?

[minimag03]

I'll just quote to my PBN post that accurately describes my opinion on the matter.

:)

[phelix]

Honestly, this is something that just makes me furious. It makes my blood boil that I and a handful of others know the truth about this, but we really can't do anything about it. The lie will live because the average PBN kid will trust that crook Wood over Doc and Kaye.

[phelix]

:cuss: I got banned from PBN for getting too heated up about the matter

[Troen]

:clap: :rofl: :rofl: :cheers:

[Steelrat]

You have to love the subtle digs Jack Wood is getting in on TK, such as the "Automag guys following their master" and "testing that was valid in the 90's" bits. Rather than back down, now he is implying that the way his marker shoots (i.e. recoil) is somehow affecting the trajectory of the ball.

He completely lost any last vestiges of credibility when he suggested that using a bench rest when testing is of no value.

[SCpoloRicker]

It's actually the Magnus Effect that is thought responsible for the lift induced on a spinning ball in flight. Bernoulli’s is an often mis-quoted reference in relation to traveling spinning spherical objects and the lift (or lack of) that is induced. Just as it is considered that Bernoulli is the only explanation of how lift on a plane wing is created.


I would like people to read my posts more closely before quoting me, as people are putting words into my mouth. I clearly said that ultimate range is often very similar, and that it is the actual trajectory between start and finish point that is effected. All I can say is that, Yes, in theory these alterations in trajectory do seem improbable. But the problem is that the theory of these systems very often do not take into account every single factor. Modeling of turbulent flow is nigh-on impossible, to start with, and then the interaction of the actual marker dynamics, the exact location of the ball on gas release and a hundred other elements all combine to produce a system that no-one has even started to scratch the surface of. Like I said before, the only way that the complexities of this system will ever be fully resolved is when some very rich government has a real need to propel a semi-rigid shelled, viscose liquid filled spherical object.

But in the mean-time all I can do is offer a bit my experience and findings through actual physical testing, and a little theory, even if only to induce some thought and debate on the subject. There is no harm in that is there?

I work for the Magnus Effect, so I'm getting a kick out of a lot of these replies... :rolleyes:

[Tao]

One post on the other forum I noticed was that a guy empty a halo out of two guns which both had the same barrel, same paint and same psi in the tank.

The amount of gas released by the valve in the gun is important not the tank. This only effects FPS anyway.

I always beleived that grade 12 physics should be manditory in high school it would solve so many problems like all this nonsence...

Tom should have never retired from paintball his info in his Tech Tips are great. Thanks to him that guy can't sell his rifled mag barrel ever on ebay (go look under mag markers) :P
..it has been there for a month...

[Dark Side]

[QUOTE=Tao]

I always beleived that grade 12 physics should be manditory in high school it would solve so many problems like all this nonsence...
QUOTE]


Yeah but then you would have 85% of 12th graders failing to get past high school.

[Pump Scout]

im calling upon the illuminati to get to the bottom of this.

Fnord.

You're not cleared for this information.


And for those of you who get this.... you're a really old gamer! :D

[SniperSmurf]

OMG, that thread is still going?!? 16 pages....

Way off topic here, but does anyone know if Jack Wood is related to Mike Wood? Now THAT guy is innovative!

Phelix, are you suprised? Seemed to me that you were a little more that "too heated up". ;)

[UTDragun]

You have to love the subtle digs Jack Wood is getting in on TK, such as the "Automag guys following their master" and "testing that was valid in the 90's" bits. Rather than back down, now he is implying that the way his marker shoots (i.e. recoil) is somehow affecting the trajectory of the ball.

He completely lost any last vestiges of credibility when he suggested that using a bench rest when testing is of no value.
...is that like saying magnus and bernoulli testing was only valid way back then?

[AgentSmith]

I like the part where it's admitted a little bit of spin in a marker held sideways will make it veer horribly but the fact that a little bit of kick or muzzle flip would have EXACTLY the same effect in a sideways marker is ignored completely. It reminds me of watching an otter hop from ice chunk to ice chunk as it gets carried downstream, one spot to stand is taken away so the irrationalists hop to another floe. Is irrationalist a word? It certainly should be, perhaps I'll copyright it, come on the internet and argue that it's more succinct than 'IDIOT' for 70 pages on PBN. :rofl:

Rob