Why dislike for Smart Parts?

[installer020]

I notice alot of people dislike Smart Parts both here and on PBN. I seem to be the only person who does not know why? Please fill me in.

Matt

[MisterBones25]

most people think they have questionable buisness practices. in short they have pattented the electroninc paintball marker and have sued many companies over it. they make quality equiptment, they just run their buisness difrent than most people would like to see.

[grEnAlEins]

This is true, the bussiness practices are shady, but I do not hate them for it, in fact I own an 05 Shocker. SP attempting to eliminate all competition through lawsuit is wrong though. Lots of great guns are no longer made because of the SP legal team.

[Lohman446]

This is true, the bussiness practices are shady, but I do not hate them for it, in fact I own an 05 Shocker. SP attempting to eliminate all competition through lawsuit is wrong though. Lots of great guns are no longer made because of the SP legal team.

Lots of companies are forced to comply with intelectual property laws because SP had the legal rights to what they were using without consideration. People are annoyed by SP protecting there legally obtained rights.

[dahoeb]

there are countless threads about this topic. about people who hate SP and what not, SEARCH AND/OR READ those threads.
misterbones' answer seemed pretty accurate as to why some people hate sp. but most paintballers could care less, thats why people still go around sports freaks, shockers and sp jerseys.

[Rick-USA]

The biggest majority of the hatred seems to stem from SP making the decision to actually enforce a patent they were issued by the US government. The legalities of the patent will probably be fought out even more as the years progress. WDP has already stepped up and brought about court action once. I'm sure it will happen again somewhere down the line.

There are a lot of folks in the paintball world who think things should only be done to help the sport regardless if a company can sustain business or not. So when SP decided to sue companies who had built markers based on a design covered by the patent things blew up in the paintball world and suddenly people who had purchased SP products for years were the biggest anti-SP people around. And I've heard all the reasoning behind how it's suddenly bad when for years people like Tom Kaye, Glenn Palmer, Bud Orr etc haven't chosen to fight for what they owned or designed. I'm glad those people made that decision but it doesn't change my opinion in any way. Just because one business does things one way and another does it another way doens't make either one right in my opinion.

Personally I think the right decision was made to enforce the lawful patents SP owned. But then I tend to think a business is just that. It's sole purpose is to make a profit from the product or service it sells. A company isn't in business just for the sake of helping a sport grow with no chance it will ever make a profit. If it is, then it will find itself out of business while the company that actually watches the bottom line is still around.

[installer020]

Correct me if I am wrong. What I get from these responses is this. Smart Parts patented the technologies they came up with for there markers. Other companies used the technology that was covered under these patents without permission, in return Smart Parts sued them to make them stop.

Is this an accuarte understanding?

Matt

[anomoly40]

Well, sorta. Some people question the patent saying it's too broad to patent such a thing and others think they didn't come up with the electro-pneumatic marker.

[shartley]

The biggest majority of the hatred seems to stem from SP making the decision to actually enforce a patent they were issued by the US government. The legalities of the patent will probably be fought out even more as the years progress. WDP has already stepped up and brought about court action once. I'm sure it will happen again somewhere down the line.

There are a lot of folks in the paintball world who think things should only be done to help the sport regardless if a company can sustain business or not. So when SP decided to sue companies who had built markers based on a design covered by the patent things blew up in the paintball world and suddenly people who had purchased SP products for years were the biggest anti-SP people around. And I've heard all the reasoning behind how it's suddenly bad when for years people like Tom Kaye, Glenn Palmer, Bud Orr etc haven't chosen to fight for what they owned or designed. I'm glad those people made that decision but it doesn't change my opinion in any way. Just because one business does things one way and another does it another way doens't make either one right in my opinion.

Personally I think the right decision was made to enforce the lawful patents SP owned. But then I tend to think a business is just that. It's sole purpose is to make a profit from the product or service it sells. A company isn't in business just for the sake of helping a sport grow with no chance it will ever make a profit. If it is, then it will find itself out of business while the company that actually watches the bottom line is still around.
Agreed.

[RapidTransit]

Smart Parts is the SCO, Rambus, and Amazon.com of the pantball world. Their patent of an electro pneumatic marker is to broad. The Patent Office is a joke. If these companies had more money then you'd see some major court battles. I can see AGD patenting the blowforward design. But comeon a Electropneumatic marker that uses an electric solenoid? Alot of patent infringment cases are frivolous and are only their to hurt competition.

Ex- Amazon.com patented the 'one click' checkout. How many different ways is this wrong from a programmers perspective? :rofl:

[JOESPUD27]

Hey, wow is it time for this debate again for 06 already? Hey after this lets discuss "closed vs open bolt accuracy" "Sheridan vs Nelson" "Cocker vs Mag" "Pun vs White Wolf" or one on my personal all time favorites, "Phantom vs Carter-a discussion on which shoot flatter" *all the posted above have EXTREME SARCASM*

People like who they like or don't like who they don't like for personal reasons (hopefully) it shouldn't be about whats popular....

Jay

[Automaggot68]

/Paging WARPED1

[Automaggot68]

Alot of patent infringment cases are frivolous and are only their to hurt competition.


Welcome to the REAL World.
Many companies such as Nokia and Qualcomm have Dept's with the sole and dedicated purpose of keeping other Company's in-progress-products in court. If it's being fought over in court, the rival company can't release or work on it.

I was told this after I discussed he SP deal with my Engineer Uncle, who works at Qualcomm and is one of the original 25 employees.

[installer020]

This really is a heated debate, I didn't realize this. I guess it all kind of comes down to ones opinion of the broadness of the patent. Thanks to all who posted and helped me understand this better.

Matt

[Dayspring]

They had ONE patent that involved the use of a solenoid & electronics to fire the gun. They then broadened the patent to say that ANYTHING that uses electronics in a paintball gun is their design. (Some shady dealing & an inatentive patent office.)

WDP did a bit of an end-run, because when Smart Parts bought PVI (for the Shocker design), some designer (I forget his name) didn't sign a piece of paper saying that the total sum of his designs belonged to SP. WDP bought the rights from the designer in the past year and then challenged SP. What it DID was do was say that SP couldn't sue somebody who was on the same patent (which buying the rights allowed them to do). WDP also sued saying that SP had to stop production of guns that used boards that could be flashed/reprogrammed in the gun.

What will WDP do with the patent? Nobody really knows, as they co-hold it with SP. Could WDP license the technology out cheaper than SP would? Possibility. Only time will tell.




Correct me if I am wrong. What I get from these responses is this. Smart Parts patented the technologies they came up with for there markers. Other companies used the technology that was covered under these patents without permission, in return Smart Parts sued them to make them stop.

Is this an accuarte understanding?

Matt

[Arstron]

Actually Smart Parts bought out a company called PVI (Pneu Ventures Inc.) which had the patent for a electro pneumatic marker. I do not agree with how they have done things, but I dont care for their markers either. I will leave it at that.

[UTDragun]

I dont understand it, How it electronic fuel injection for cars not patented then?

[OneEyedPimp]

Can someone explain something to me? If SP owns the patent to Electropneumatic marker operation, then what does Dye, Bob Long, etc do so that they can continue manufacturing their markers? Or is it not that broad of a patent?

[a1killer]

oh it is but i think all the car companys just pay royalties to the owner of the patent

[personman]

Let me sum it up for you: Smart Parts realises that they make low quality markers so they make their money by suing the crap out of their competition and creating a monopoly on the electro market.

This makes the people who enjoy owning quality markers frusterated.

[Dayspring]

DYE- The shocker & matrix function almost exactly alike. SP knows this and "licensed" the electronic marker technology to them (in return, they don't get sued over the spool valve design.)

Bob Long- Look who owns them. National Paintball Supply. The world's largest paintball distributor. Would YOU want to piss off the 900lb gorilla that sells your stuff? I didn't think so.

WDP- since their end-run with SP, they are on the patent as well, and as such can continue making markers.

Etc- There have been some companies that are complying with the suit and licensing the tech. Others have shifted to mech only or super-mech guns- (AGD and PTP's pneu-frame). Some have closed up shop.



Can someone explain something to me? If SP owns the patent to Electropneumatic marker operation, then what does Dye, Bob Long, etc do so that they can continue manufacturing their markers? Or is it not that broad of a patent?

[snoopay700]

I hate them because they are money hungry, greedy, selfish ********, and their products aren't of that great of quality either.

[Pha|anx]

Quality Control



Everyone at times has bad customer service, that is understandable. Shipping a non- functioning product is not. :mad: :cuss:

[Cow hunter]

shady tactics, super stupid patenets, low quality, well they have a HUGE monopoly and are doing uber successfully becuase they can make a cheap fast electro that they make unrealistic claims about(ion)........ well if i had that company, sadly enough, i would do the same thing sheerly becuase of how much moeny they make

EDIT; probably also because SP is part of the reason AGD is having problems, and they scared AGD to stop making the X-mag those ********, and the hAir from deadlywind was stopped cause they warned them, even though they claimed it was not pneu assisted or sumthin

[tyrion2323]

Lots of companies are forced to comply with intelectual property laws because SP had the legal rights to what they were using without consideration. People are annoyed by SP protecting there legally obtained rights.

Nah, it's more like people are annoyed that SP waited near a decade to enforce that patent, and wussed out by shutting down small companies that weren't really making a dent in their profits to begin with. If they truly cared about protecting their patent, they would have gone after Kingman and WDP.


they make quality equiptment
I'd rethink that statement. SP's quality control is notoriously lacking, from shipping faulty products to shipping products that simply didn't work. Their customer service is poor as well, and they charge customers ridiculous fees to fix problems that they created in the first place.


Correct me if I am wrong. What I get from these responses is this. Smart Parts patented the technologies they came up with for there markers. Other companies used the technology that was covered under these patents without permission, in return Smart Parts sued them to make them stop.

Is this an accuarte understanding?

Matt
It would be if SP had been actively defending their patents for the previous decade, and had been attempting to protect their design. They waited, however, until electros were "the only solution" and then decided to seize the market in a series of legal battles against small companies. It was obviously done in order to maximize profits and put a stranglehold on a large part of the consumer base.

Furthermore, they enforced an extremely general patent of all electronic paintball guns. This is not only ridiculous, but it's detrimental to the paintball community, as smaller companies can no longer get into the ring to put out new ideas.

Is it legal? Apparently. But that doesn't make it "right". It really comes down to whether you support the ideals of "I'm going to take the biggest part of the pie that I can, even if it means stepping on other guys." But, then, that's the way Americans seem to do business.

I don't subscribe to those ideals, and I don't simply chalk it up to the paintball industry "growing up". It's pissing in the community pond.

[Baby Huey]

All I can tell you about is my experience. I have two shockers and beat the heck out of them and over the 1 1/2 years I have only had one problem. It was something that I broke because I was not paying attention when I was taking it apart. I set up an RA # on-line and shipped them the gun (under warranty) and they fixed and shipped back very quickly. I love my guns and get compliments on them all the time(on speed, looks, and when I let somebody rip on the trigger) . Another time I lost a rear bolt bumper and they shipped me out one quickly at no cost (its only $1 anyway). Good luck and God Bless.

[paint magnet]

I never liked them before the lawsuit...I really dislike them now.

I was never impressed with their quality, and most of their designs have simply been knockoffs of other products which they either copied or *bought* (some would say stole) the rights to.

[FSU_Paintball]

Back in the day, Smart Parts had their patents rejected for being too broad. It sent a clear message; you can't patent the entire concept of an electro. So they narrowed the concept to cover their original shocker and not much else, and their patent was granted.

Years later, they started slowly adding in the things, one at a time, that had gotten the patent originally rejected for being too broad. By slipping them in slowly, they fooled the patent office into approving the same thing they had rejected earlier. They then took this new all-powerful patent of theirs and went to town.

Legal? Shady, but yes. Morally questionable? Certainly. Who's fault is this? The patent system's.

But if you're asking whether people's dislike of SP is warranted.... IMO, certainly. It's not that they were protecting their intellectual property... they intentionally snuck one past the patent office that they KNEW they shouldn't have been trying, and after years of slow additions they got it... by which time electros had become a fleshed out market, ripe for the lawsuits that were to follow.

Welcome to the new world of paintball... there aren't many "good guys" left. Every big company acts like this nowadays. It's a business.

[Dayspring]

THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK

1) Yes, AGD was served papers by SP. (Source- Tom Kaye Himself). Was it the ENTIRE reason they got out of electro markers? No.

2) The hAir trigger had NOTHING to do with Smart Parts. PTP had prior art/patent on the pneumatic trigger system. Deadlywind tried to work out a licensing deal, but the $ and court costs made it not worth it. (Source- Colin from DW)

Before you spread mis-information (which your post was full of) PLEASE get the facts straight.



probably also because SP is part of the reason AGD is having problems, and they scared AGD to stop making the X-mag those ********, and the hAir from deadlywind was stopped cause they warned them, even though they claimed it was not pneu assisted or sumthin

[Arstron]

THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK

1) Yes, AGD was served papers by SP. (Source- Tom Kaye Himself). Was it the ENTIRE reason they got out of electro markers? No.

2) The hAir trigger had NOTHING to do with Smart Parts. PTP had prior art/patent on the pneumatic trigger system. Deadlywind tried to work out a licensing deal, but the $ and court costs made it not worth it. (Source- Colin from DW)

Before you spread mis-information (which your post was full of) PLEASE get the facts straight.

Thank you for posting this, I was just getting ready to post somthing similar. Was AGD actually served papers though? I was thinking it was just a warning that they received...

[Dayspring]

"Papers" is rather generic. Could be a court order or something like a cease & desist letter from SP. Tom didn't go into detail. However, I think he did mention it on AO somewhere, if you look, you could probably find it.

[MisterBones25]

[QUOTE=tyrion2323]I'd rethink that statement. SP's quality control is notoriously lacking, from shipping faulty products to shipping products that simply didn't work. Their customer service is poor as well, and they charge customers ridiculous fees to fix problems that they created in the first place.QUOTE]

when i said quality, i didnt mean like agd quality, my buddy owns a shocker and hasnt had any problems with it. i myself own an impulse and havnt had any problems with it other than the ones i have created. if you maintain your smart parts marker correctly, you should have no problems with it, and if you break it under warenty, they will fixit. now if you break it out of warenty they are going to charge you, like any other company i know.

[jfreak]

Smart Parts does make a few nice products. My biggest beef with them over the years has been shady business practices and outrageous claims on products that are overpriced and under perform. A few examples: Shocker trigger that fired off of "trigger events," original freak inserts that were not even close to advertised bore sizes, and my personal favorite, the Smartmag and the "magic box" which was most notable for magically emptying your wallet and making your mag exceedingly ugly, but little else.

[Richter]

smart parts electro patent is like Smuckers trying to patent the peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the crust; judge throughout the patent.

[SpitFire1299]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189043

Lots of reasons in there.. :)

[hitech]

People are annoyed by SP protecting there legally obtained rights.

I would have to disagree. They were not legally obtained... AND, it is there interpretation of what their patent covers that causes the problems. Since they are big enough to force their will on others, their interpretation stood for a while. That was until WDP joined the fight.

With the usual respect,

Hitech

_____________________________________________
<img src="http://www.synreal.net/sig/hitech.gif">

Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant (http://www.kercon.com)

[hitech]

There are a lot of folks in the paintball world who think things should only be done to help the sport regardless if a company can sustain business or not. So when SP decided to sue companies who had built markers based on a design covered by the patent things blew up in the paintball world...

Ah, if it were only as simple as SP being issued a patent and enforcing it. It's not. Dayspring covered it well. He left out that SP left out acknowledgement of prior art on an application to update the patent that had been previously rejected (or maybe this was for the original patent, I don't remember).

[hitech]

"Papers" is rather generic. Could be a court order or something like a cease & desist letter from SP.

I think Tom told me it was a cease & desist. I'm not sure. It was quite a while before the current lawsuits. He did say that "everyone" got one and that most everyone didn't believe SPs patent covered every electronic marker. Since, before the update(s) it didn't.

[nastymag]

I don't like Smart Parts because of questionable business practices, and REALLLLY bad Quality controll.

yeah i have owned 2 SP guns, a max flow and a freak.

i have owned many other guns, and honestly i have never been impressed with SP products.

[Baby Huey]

Its not all bad. Read the whole article (Don't just read the title and post "not another PL Shocker")

Announcing the Tremor Shocker!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baltimore Maryland 01/11/06 – Smart Parts Teams with Tremor to Bring you the TREMOR SHOCKER! In honor of Tremor’s cause, a portion of the profits of every Tremor Shocker sold will be donated toward curing Parkinson’s Disease through medical research and related charities!

Smart Parts has chosen to make Tremor, a team founded by Parkinson’s patient and tournament paintball player Christopher Clark and his wife Karen to raise awareness and funding for Parkinson’s disease research, the latest addition to the Smart Parts family.

"There's more to team sponsorship than on-field performance. We care very much about the sport of paintball and those we choose to represent it. Chris Clark, Owner, Team Tremor exemplifies everything that's positive about paintball at the tournament level. We applaud Chris' sense of humor in naming his team while calling attention to an important cause. We look forward to producing a private label Tremor Shocker to help the team win--as well as to help those who suffer from Parkinson's Disease. We're rooting for you on and off the field."

--Adam Gardner, Vice President, Smart Parts, Inc.

“The sales of the Tremor Shocker will enable us not just to compete but to contribute towards a cure in ways that we never could otherwise. We of Team Tremor thank Smart Parts’ for their generous support and as a patient I can truly say that the Parkinson’s community thanks you as well. It is an honor to be associated with a company that has, since its inception, been a catalyst in moving paintball forward! We will strive to represent Smart Parts, their family of great teams and players, and our sport, with honesty integrity and pride each and every time we step onto the field.”

--Chris Clark, Co-Captain, Team Tremor

Look for more news on Tremor in future releases.


Have a great night and God Bless.

Huey