Tactical Automag prototype thread. Please help. [Archive]

famousgamer

01-14-2006, 10:58 PM

Okay, I am designing a woodsball marker that uses the excellent line of AGD products. I have been posting on PBnation about this concept marker, and I am going to post it here as well for your input. Specials thanks to the people on PBnation that have helped me thus far.

The reason behind this marker is simple: The Spec Ops Longbow, and soon to be "Black Cell" line of products disappoint me. There are dozens of reasons why the Longbow system is foolish, but its saving grace is the ADG marker that fuels it.

What is strage is that they use a TAC ONE as its base tho? Why not a Custom ULE, or even a hopped up Pro Classic? The Longbow makes NO use of the TAC ONE's picatinny rails, or most of its fast firing upgrades. It is simply overkill, and the price reflects it.

The purpose of my AGD marker concept marker is simple: To beat the Longbow at its own game. Better erganomics, balance, feel and most importantly... price!

In order to finally create this marker, Ill need a little help from you, the experts. The good news is that I got plently of nice pictures ot check out, and also I will be constructing the final approved design. That way, you can actually see the fruits of the labor put into its design.

I would like to thanks everyone who takes the times to help me design this marker. Half of the reason why I choose AGD is the fact that there is such a support base associated with the brand name, and for that I am very gratefull.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, here is the basic design, and I will follow each picture with a few questions or curiosities I may have...

There are two options. One is to create a marker that allows the instalation of the Spec Ops air-thru Longbow stock...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/ultrabow.jpg

and the other option is to create the stock from scratch, either by bending aluminium...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/newshroud.jpg

or C and Cing the stock peice...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/stocks.jpg

So, I am curious as to which is going to end up being cheaper. The longbow stock is pricey, but less work in the long run.

Also, I am curious how to drill the stock, or aluminum, into the grip of the marker, and even the frame rail. On Pro Classic frame there are already holes in the rear, if one decides to mount their asa from the rear of the marker. Can a similar modification be made on an RT rail? I know there are not holes there already, but is this possible if one made the holes themselves? If this was possible, I could mount the stock into the frame as well, making it much more durable and steady.

Also, I am probably going to use a warp feed. This will lower the overall profile, and be somethig that can directly compete with the Qloader. The marker could end up looking something like this (is the Spec Ops stock is used...)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/ghettov1-warped.jpg

That is with a vert feed. I might opt to go warp feed, and not use the picatinny riser block. I am also not sure about that either.

So, as you can tell, I got alot of questions. Thanks for your patience, and for your help.

sasquach

01-14-2006, 11:21 PM

I have a Tac one, and I agree that the Longbow is rediculous. The 21 rnd tube makes the RT capabilities of the Tac1 irrelevant; furthermore, it is my understanding that the reg on the Tac1 is meant to be consistant in strings, not for "OSOK's" Anyway, I would really like a nice stock for my tac1. At least for the future, you might consider trying to find a way to attach a 98c CAR stock to the back of the tac1. It would look mean and I think it would still be functional. Regardless, I like all of your ideas. Please keep us informed.

famousgamer

01-15-2006, 12:04 AM

The good news is that if the Spec Ops Longbow buttplate is attached to the rear of the Automag/TAC ONE grip (see first diagram), ANY Spec Ops stock can then be attached. Of course they would have to sell me that one peice (the buttplate), and I am not even sure if they do that.

Regardless if it works out I will post my plans here so you can try something similar to you marker. When a few more things get ironed out here, the findings should benifit all automag owners that want a more tactical feel from their marker.

Thanks for the input.

P.S. This is how the buttplate attaches itself to the bent aluminum bar...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/ultrabow2.jpg

This would be better if it could be attached ot the rt frame, and not the handle screw tho.

famousgamer

01-16-2006, 04:12 AM

... and the crowd goes mild.

DSR75

01-16-2006, 03:51 PM

I like it. I've been attempting to design a way to use the automag's completely inclosed, internal design to make a more "scenario" type gun. I like your designs so far. If you need someone to throw ideas off of, feel free to email me at DSR29A@hotmail.com I have a lot of designs that I've come up with. Plus I have some connections with a machine shop.

famousgamer

01-16-2006, 07:06 PM

Wow. A machine shop hookup is sweet! Really, alot of these designs are stunted, as I have to rely on "easy to make" techniques. A machining place would make alot of things a reality, alot quicker.

I will doodle around a 'lil more, and maybe if you are into the designs we can build a few. I by no means want rights to the design, and I would be thrilled and flattered if other people used it and helped me build it. Thanks for the heads up!

DSR75

01-16-2006, 10:48 PM

My dad owns his own machine shop. He's a damn good machinist as well. He's made several stocks for my different guns. None of them have been to extensive though. I would recommend that the stock be removable. I think using a design similar to the spec ops stock would yield the best results. Having a solid stock may look better but it would be harder to connect to the gun. A gas thru is also highly recommended. I'll give him some specs and see what he can do. It may take a little bit, he's currently involved in a very large deal with a big company so he's very busy. Keep me informed of any ideas you come up with. I'm always happy to talk design/construction. It's a big hobby of mine.

Coralis

01-17-2006, 12:22 AM

what you could consider too is looking at some the BT gear and then making an adapter to make it fit the mag , that folding stock looks pretty sweet (to me anyway)

famousgamer

01-17-2006, 01:07 AM

I agree that the key to a great tactical Automag will be its ability to house other companies stocks and parts.

The main thing to add, like you guys mentioned, was stocks from other companies. That is huge, as there are already so many air thru choices availible, in so many styles. Another clear choice is the addition of either 3/8th dovetail sights on the top of the marker shroud (like the tippmans) or picatinny rails.

I would keep on the path of designing my own stock, but I really do not have an idea of what hardware to use to mount the peices together. If I got that buttplate from the Tippman a-5, or the buttplate from the Special Ops air thru Longbows stock (little flat peice), then it would be much easier to design. I suppose I should get one of these and then continue my tinkering. Perhaps I should check out some kind of Tippmann parts site?

Really, this "tactical" Automag would be most versitile if it was [potentially upgradable with most of the Tippmann/Special Ops upgrades.

Also, I am not sure what format to use when passing my ideas on to a machinist? Can my scale photochop renderings be turned into CAD files, or whichever files a machinist uses? Do machinists also do their own computer renderings? I am not the greatest at designing in three dimentions, but I try to have my two dimention drawings make up for it.

I will go down the more Special Ops variety of the Automag in my next drawings. Expect some more soon. Thanks again for your help guys. I am stoked to hear about your dad the machinist DSR75, and I hope he is stoked about the potential prospect of making something new.

famousgamer

01-17-2006, 05:18 AM

Well... this kinda harks back to the original idea...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/stockadapter.jpg

I think that is one of the better ways to do the stock, or stock adapter. The air thru stock is held in, or sandwiched in like the Special Ops longbow shroud does. Is there even a female plate thing in there, or is it just screwed into the sandwich? That sounded dirty didnt it? :tard: You know what I mean tho. Is it really that simple?

Oh yeah, and I am putting the stock/s lower, to allow for mask clearance. Something the Longbow does not do by a longshot!

I will try this design with some other stocks, and a front shroud (which I am still kinda unclear on...)

famousgamer

01-17-2006, 07:01 AM

Ugh. I cant sleep.

Here is a shroud that is a two peice cover. Each peice connects with the other vertically. This is a warp left frame.

The bottom peice connects to the frame near the finger guard. This is connected the same way that foregrip extenders do.

The top peice connects to the stock adapter near the rear, but I am not sure how yet.

Each peice has a picatinny rail/s, or dovetail screwed in.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/shroud2.jpg

Very vague, but I just wanted to see if the idea agreed with anyone.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Here is a way to attach em. Kinda ugly still, but I will make a purdy version a little later, and based on feedback as well... Looks like that stock adapter part that connects to the frame has a good use after all, in attaching the top shroud.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/shroud3.jpg

DSR75

01-17-2006, 10:27 AM

An adapter is a great idea. I only have experience with 98c stock, not the a-5. Do they connect a different way? I'm sure they do since you have a specific one for each. As far as how he makes his stuff. We'll take your ideas off the paper and put our knowledge together on the best way to try and make your design. We may have to tweak some things here and there that are not feesable. I think I may need to break down and get an RT rail so we have a better idea of how to build it. I'll try to get some pics of the stock he made for my tippmann pro carbine a few years back. Also mask clearance is HUGE!! I like using a red dot. It comes natural to me since I use one when I hunt. The thing I hate most about all the commercial stocks out there is that there is NO mask clearance. It's obvious that Spec Ops never field tested their "longbow sniper" before having it sent off. Or if they did they didn't have masks on. I like the drawings you have up. You are putting a lot of work into it. Just be patient on our end. Like I said in another post, he is really bogged down right now. I'm actually going down there this weekend to help him with some projects.

craltal

01-17-2006, 11:05 AM

is it just me, or does the stock seen too low? I prefer to have a stock a bit more inline with the main body of the gun.

Also, specops sells just the rear end of the longbow. It attaches to the same six holes that the RT sight rail does, placing it higher. Albeit, it also costs $150 but it provides another attachment idea

http://idisk.mac.com/cral/Public/lb.jpg

DSR75

01-17-2006, 11:14 AM

craltal

01-17-2006, 11:52 AM

Have you ever tried to aim down then barrel of the gun or use a red dot with a stock that high? You can't do it with your mask on. I've seen the spec ops one before. No way I'm paying $150 when I can make it myself for quarter of the price. Plus that thing looks hideous.

I'm used to rifles and shotguns, so yes. Aside from that, I use OEG's so I don't have to get me head so close.

My other point, since you obviously missed it, you can run an adapter plate to the six threaded holes on the side of the RT rail so you don't have to modify the trigger frame by either drilling into the middle of it or using a longer rear screw.

If you can make one, go ahead. I don't care, I was answering some questions that were put forth in the thread and adding my $0.02 about placement, not aesthetics.

DSR75

01-17-2006, 12:42 PM

I didn't mean to come across as rude or not appreciative. I apologize for that. Thanks for the imput.

acrosome

01-17-2006, 01:51 PM

I appreciate your plans for using an ADG design as your base, but have you really looked at the Black Cell Longbows? (This is not spam- the explaination follows.)

I have ALWAYS had the same complaint that you do about air-through stocks, i.e. that they are far too high and interfere with a good sight picture. I agree that the original Longbows fail miserably at their stated purpose for this reason. But the new Ion-based Black Cell stocks are set much lower, and I'm curious to find out if they allow enough room for a mask. On the Longbow Black Cell versions there is also the matter of the sight rail being raised even higher above the main body. I think it looks like it might work.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/acrosome/ionqbow9fd.jpg

Mind you, I'm talking about the Q-bow, since as you mentioned that 20-round tube magazine is just ridiculous. But this would probably work wolderfully with a Warp feed if you are dead-set on one. Of course if you want a normal hopper on top that's a no-go.

For the record, though, your design is still better. It's about what I always come up with when I fantasize about my ultimate woodsball gun, except that I like the Q-loader. (I'm into woodsball, but not really milsim.) I'm trying to convince myself that I need a Tac-1 E-Mag to work on a similar project.

DSR75

01-17-2006, 01:59 PM

I'm torn about using either a q-loader or warp feed. I'm afraid of using either one for the simple fact that I feel I will break them. I've never used either but the q-loader appears fragile. The warp seams more sturdy but requires batteries and makes noise. I'm also afraid of catching the tubing on something. While I prefer to find a good hide, I occasionally like to stalk or flank. In doing do I need something that, if the occasion arose, I could feel comforatable running, diving, sliding with. What is your experience with the q-loader? I would love to be able to make a scenario/tactical line of products for AGD b/c I feel that are one of, if not the best, markers and companies out there.
As far as mask clearance, it appears that the black cell does accomodate your mask. I've never used one before so I am strictly making this statement off of an observation of the pic that you posted.

peewee

01-17-2006, 02:24 PM

:wow: gamer I like your idea's !!! they look a hek of a lot better than the longbow. Personally I'd give luke a holler about any machining you might need.

acrosome

01-17-2006, 07:30 PM

The Q-loader is about as sturdy as a really well-made hopper, but I will grant you that it is longer so you get more leverage if it gets torqued from the end. It's still plenty sturdy. I'd say it probably is easier to break a Q-loader than a warp feed or a hopper-- I just can't stand the ergonomics of a warp feed. Well, if I'm going to be honest I've never played with one so I can't be sure, but I've held one and I found it annoying. Maybe I just needed to get used to it. You also cannot fire while reloading a Q-loader, and that can be a bummer, but the less batteries I have to rely on the better.

LONEWOLFOO1

01-17-2006, 08:00 PM

I just order the longbow shroud for myself i don't hav access to a machine shop so i can hack and cut away to make mines work with a mask.

i just find it funny that agd has one moveing part in their design. i figure they would have made q loader style automags in the shape of a p90/m4 by now. i mean it only use one part to shoot the paintball unlike many moving parts like my bm2k. agd step up your woodsball game!!!

famousgamer

01-17-2006, 08:01 PM

As far as the 6 holes on the RT rail... they are not all aligned straight. It kind of steps out three times. Ths is not to say that a good machinist could not match these steps with an adapter peice, but it makes it tougher.

The RT rail would be nice to use, except for a few reasons: Firstly, we do not know if we can even drill through the back end of the RT rail into the stock adapter peice, for added stability (and looks). We know we CAN with the original style frame.

Also, we know that we can use the front end hole (used for the front grip, gas thru grip and grip extention peice) to build of off. On the RT we have to rely either on the front three screws, or the grip holder peice that is supplied with the RT marker. Bother of which just arent as easy as using the already usable hole in the front of the original frame.

All in all it is just going to be simpler using the old style frame, at a very small sacrifice. It is also cheaper, and I want this to be a very inexpensive and sill a solid marker.

As far as mask clearance... I am still not convinced that the black cell stuff really delivers. For example...

This is how paintballers shoot. Obviously, paintball shooting is ten times different than regular rifle/shotgun shooting...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/stances.jpg

and rifle shooting, for comparison.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle.jpg

And this is the clearance of: two regular comfortable (but not cool looking) paintball t-stocks, the special Ops stocks, and the concept we are working on...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/clearance.jpg

Now, judging by the stances in the first picture, and the stocks in the second, it is plain to see which are going to work better for paintball. The Black Cell is much better than the Longbow, but still relies on a sight riser.

This no riser thing is hugely important, because I want to totally avoid risers in every form. A single focal plane to shoot from. Thats what our marker needs. This would make for super accurate snap shooting, and make for a very close red dot alignment. This will also greatly lower the profile of the marker. Also, a warp fed mag frame is technically the lowest profile frame you can get. Even lower than a Q fed marker (unless it is fed from the warp left/right feed.

I think the warp would be better than the Q loader, for a few reasons. Much more sturdy, due to the mounting plate. Way smaller profile. Also, you can stick the top of your marker over a log, bush, etc, and rest the barrel on whatever cover you are using. This makes your profile SO low, because you save that extra distance the Qloader would have taken up to get over your cover. Not a huge thing, but its all the subtleties that are gonna make this ADG tactical rule. Aslo, the warp is totally ADG. I love the Qloader, so its a tuff one, but I am leaning towards warp.'

Using the warp means sacrificing looks tho. Also, not relying on risers or handles on the top also sacrifices looks (I think they look neato). I think in the end, the tactical ADG marker is going to feel 10 times better, perform ten times better, and look almost as good as that black cell. Having said that, it is actually a goal of this markers concept to look better, and we are not done designing yet!

DEIT: added pictures

famousgamer

01-17-2006, 08:08 PM

Oh yeah, and this whole 18 inch barrell thing that the Longbow/Qbow and Black Ops thing is doing is kinda Overkill. Anything past 14 inches does not give any more accuracy (or so I have read), and it will only serve to slow down the paintball with the added friction provided by the extra barrell length.

Now, this is all internet reading, so I may be off, but if it is true this should be another feature in the ADG tactical protoype. A shorter, more efficient barrel. This would also make for a more manouverable marker as well, and with no Q loader in the front it would be an even smaller profile. Kinda like a sniper carbine.

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 04:04 AM

Another doodle... getting closer?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/2.jpg

I like how the mag is smaller, and tighter. If you can imagine picking up the gun, sighting it and shooting, the mag would be much quicker and more intuative. The hoses on the mag are cleaner and simpler.

For the people with machining experience out there... should I be making these shrouds three dimentional, or more flat? Are these going through a computerized c and c machine, or being cut and ground out of sheet metal? I am not quite sure how it is done, or the best/easiest way?

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 04:51 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/famas2.jpg

This is kinda a FAMAS design. I didnt intend to make a milsim design, but the FAMAS actually is a cool idea. The whole handle becomes a fast aiming focal plane, for intuative aiming, as opposed to a short rail or block. Of course a red dot also suits it nice.

After I saw that pic of that holding a FAMAS I thought WOW that is alot of head clearance! In this design, I moved the stock up, as there was now more clearance created by the sight rail.

I guess it is a matter of taste. What kind of gun feel should we be going for, to make the ultimate woodsball machine?

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 05:32 AM

Here is a mass, or profile comparison.

This is a mag kit with the same dimentions as the Black Cell Longbow, except the stock is still a little lower.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/mass.jpg

Kinda interesting. The AGD takes up less mass, and would be way cleaner. No multiple hoses, complicated loading house, etc. I still love that Q loader tho. Hmmm.

EDIT: And if that is that, then that means this is this...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/dimentions.jpg

Thats why the stock is going lower. I like the lower profile one better, but I suppose this is also a matter of taste.

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 06:31 AM

I cant sleep. Can you tell?

Okay, so here is an interesting starting point. I do NOT want the design to end here. I think it can be improved greatly, tho it is already an improvment over the Black Cell in my opinion. More mask clearance, smaller package, lower profile, etc.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/blackmag.jpg

Ugh. It makes me like the Q loader even more. I kinda dont want to, but... ugh. It might be a better choice rather than the warp feed. I am torn.

DSR75

01-18-2006, 09:18 AM

You are now seeing why I'm having a hard time as well deciding between the q and the warp. I'm keeping track of all the ideas so I can throw them off my dad when we get a chance to get started on this. Don't think I've given up.

craltal

01-18-2006, 10:17 AM

acrosome

01-18-2006, 10:52 AM

Man, I like that last one with the Q-loader. As I said, it's just about what I come up with when I fantasize about the perfect woodsball gun. I see that you are not using a top-mounted feed, as the longbows do. Would you run the q-loader into a left-sided feed, as is often done with the Warp Feed?

And where do I send the check? :D

Seriously, I think I've decided on the Tac-1 to use for a similar (if somewhat less ambitious) project. I really could care less about looks, so an air-through T-stock suits me just fine. I'm going to start looking for one, but if you know of a good one I'm willing to take suggestions.

I also didn't realize that you weren't necessarily intending to use your design for a "sniper" gun. In such a role I think the Ion Q-bow stock is fine, but for normal-style play (as illustrated in the pictures in you post above) then, yes, I think the Ion Q-bow stock is still far too high.

TheAngryDrunkenRussian

01-18-2006, 11:02 AM

DSR75

01-18-2006, 11:17 AM

That actually wouldn't be difficult to do with a mag. Since everything in internal all you would have to do is mount it to a rifle stock. The hard part would be making a trigger mechanism. I will take a look at it and see what I can come up with.

blitzmercenary

01-18-2006, 12:51 PM

PLEASE work a foregrip into that mag. my friend has a q loader (although he got smart and bought a halo w/ a cheetah board) and it makes the gun overly front heavy. not having a foregrip would kill the whole concept.

I cant sleep. Can you tell?

Okay, so here is an interesting starting point. I do NOT want the design to end here. I think it can be improved greatly, tho it is already an improvment over the Black Cell in my opinion. More mask clearance, smaller package, lower profile, etc.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/blackmag.jpg

Ugh. It makes me like the Q loader even more. I kinda dont want to, but... ugh. It might be a better choice rather than the warp feed. I am torn.

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 02:02 PM

PLEASE work a foregrip into that mag. my friend has a q loader (although he got smart and bought a halo w/ a cheetah board) and it makes the gun overly front heavy. not having a foregrip would kill the whole concept.

Whoa. I never considered that. Thanks for the heads up. Also thanks craltal and you guys.

Since a paintball mask has to get behind, over and around a paintball marker, mask clearance is of paramount importance. I think the pictures speak for themselves. I have put my masked face up to a rifle stock, and disliked the fact I could not look over, or get my head over the stock without putting the butt down. You also can not look down a markers focal plane with a high stock. I want a shooter to be able to rest the stock on their chest, if need be, to see either way in certain situations. With a high stock this is impossible, unless the gun is being rested on your mask.

Therefore, I am not even going to bother designing a rifle stock. For every rifle style stock Special Ops makes, they sell another off set sight mount, or overly huge sight riser to compensate for the lack of mask clearance... and they are not honest about the fact that their stocks like that are primarily for looks, not function. They are gouging, and I dont like it. They sell marker setups for people to shoot in their backyard with no mask fine, and when they hit the feild they realize how useless a stock is without mask clearance.

This woodsy marker we are forging is all function, and sometimes looks have to be sacrificed. I am pretty stoked about the air-thru stock, and I am thinking that is our base stock design.

Speaking of function... I too am stuck on the Qloader vs warp feed debate. Having not used a warp myself, I am very curious about it. Does it make much noise? I personally dislike batteries, but I also dislike my QLoader getting rested on obsticles and potentially snapping off. I am also worried about the weight being at the front of the marker. I do not want holding this marker in a firing position for a long time to be a burden. A warp would move the weight right beside the grip, where the weight is central and balanced (if not a little offset to the side). Bottom line is: Warp feeds are ugly and use batteries, and that scares me. They could be the leg up tho.

craltal

01-18-2006, 02:13 PM

Is there any way that you can move the loader to the side of the maker and put one of those tippmann A-5 fore grips under the barrel I think that would be more comfortable.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3157/drool8yt.jpg

It would be cool if some one made this in to a wood ball marker

something along these lines :D

http://idisk.mac.com/cral/Public/hurc.jpg

As for the warp question, you are looking at carrying 3-4 9V batteries, 2 in the loader and 1-2 in the warp. You have 2 separate and distinct motors running, so there is a good bit of noise

DSR75

01-18-2006, 02:37 PM

The thing I have encountered with people using a warp and a q loader is that you either love them or hate them. That brings me to the conclusion that we need to develop a way to have either one. I don't see this being a big problem. I prefer having the front grip. I've hunted all my life and I am used to shooting a rifle BUT paintball is still different. With a fully loaded hopper, warp or q loader, the weight is more than a regular rifle (or atleast it seems that way). Plus it's distributed different. The front grip is a must. Plus it gives a place to mount a q loader.

Severe

01-18-2006, 03:48 PM

Just an opinion on the Q-loader that might help you out. I've fired both Tippmann A5's and Classic mags with Qs on them. While the marker weight was more forward it was not such that it tipped.

The largest difference was that both had bottles slung on them via drop forwards and not via remote. With the bottle on the marker it was actually very balanced.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread and hope you actually move forward with some of these designs. I personally like the top feed option per the Q-bow and Ion setup. The way the feed-hose exits the Q makes it a very smooth transition. Unless Q-loaders start offering a cap that has it come out the back, the path you will take to attach to a warp feed body without a 90 degree adapt. will be a big "C".

I would very much like to see a sling point incorporated in your hardware. Playing scenario with a mag and no sling makes for a very sore arm. :)

One thing you could do to make this more appealing to more mag owners is accommodate direct-feed and power-feed bodies.

LONEWOLFOO1

01-18-2006, 05:53 PM

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 06:34 PM

Good reads. I love coming back to this thread and seeing more stuffs!

I am actually a professional wargames miniature sculptor (warhammer, reaper, etc.) and this is a great thing to do while waiting for my epoxy putty to dry! (takes two hours at a time)

I could actually sculpt a prototype as well, if need be, to send to the machinist. I am not sure if this will be needed however, but may help in finding a comfy shape in the first place. I could also mail you the sculpt DSR75, and you could carry it on if you like?

Okay, so I am leaning a lil more towards the Q now. No batteries (3-4 9V batteries, eep!) and a nice look make it contender.

Actually, this is really kinda shaping up to be a Black Cell Automag of sorts. We can still improve on mask clearance, and cleaning up all those hose lines tho. I think that giving it a shorter barrel and a little bit of a shorter distance in the stock mount may also improve on the design.

I will experiment making designs for vert feeds, as was suggested. It is a good idea. I was considering that people could just switch out entire frames to suit their feed method, but since there are low rise warp adapters (that can be used on Qloaders I think) it makes it possible to have a design VERY similar to the Black Cell, at a fraction of the price (hopefully), and less fuss.

At any rate, using the hugley popular Black Cell as a starting point isnt all that bad I suppose.

HOMELANDEFENDER

01-18-2006, 06:41 PM

snap shooting with a stock? That's a lot of motion. I'd love to watch that. There are reasons that speedball guns are short, light, and not run remotely.

As for shooting POV, it's up to the individual shooter. Look at the pictures that were posted with the rifle/ shotgun shooters. With the exception of the drawing with the m-16, everyone of them could be wearing a paintball mask and still have enough clearance, not that we actually play that way. As for the FAMAS picture, you are failing to recognize that while there is a lot of "stuff" above the level of the stock, it still sits inline with the body of the gun and the barrel aiding in keeping the weapon steady. You also have the added benefit that a bullet actually travels in a straight line, for all intents and purposes at the ranges we deal with, while paintballs do not.

As for the rear holes stepping out, have you ever seen one? There are wings that extend after the holes towards the back, but the holes must be inline otherwise the RT sight rail wouldn't fit. I just brought it up as it would require less modification the the gun.

I give you kudos for the thoughts and am not trying to stifle your creativity, in fact I'm trying to help you think a bit more broadly. My ideas might not help, but at least I'm making you think a bit.

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing properly.

[/beating horse]
:D
As for snap shooting with a stock, his designs are not that bad. I've been running a stock off the grip frame for years, and my setup is lighter than any standard speedball rig. I can snap shoot very quickly -- as fast or faster than a tank mounted to the marker rig. If you haven't tried it, you'll be surprised --- providing there is enough room for proper sight alignment (or sighting down the barrel).

The only limitation is that you do have the remote line to work with, and it doesn't interfere unless you attempt to switch from right to left side shooting.

Here's my versions using JCS products:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/DSCF0048.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2004_0102PROCARBscout30008.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/ETac3.jpg

HLD...

HOMELANDEFENDER

01-18-2006, 06:59 PM

After doing some searching I found a picture of what it looks like with a properly executed firing position using a stock mounted low such as on my gear. If he mounts the thing low enough, it should be fine.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/NJTAG1.gif http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/NJTAG3.gif

HLD...

HOMELANDEFENDER

01-18-2006, 07:20 PM

LONEWOLFOO1

01-18-2006, 08:13 PM

now all we need now is a tac one warp frame i ask this question a while back when tom was still around i guess it was drop here is the post maybe if you chime in we can get it done

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131303

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 08:40 PM

Whoa, nice gun and thanks for the research HOMELANDDEFENDER. I am thinking I am still drawing the stock too high up. Hmm. I will base some more drawings around that excellent firing pose.

Funny how I cant find ONE picture of a person sighting up a Longbow online. I dont even think it is possible with a paintball mask on to be honest. (without risers, offset doo dads, yadda yadda)

Anywho, check this out.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/4.jpg

and not alot lower then the original Black Cell Ion

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/3.jpg

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 08:54 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/sightline.jpg

Clearly a human head wearing a paintball mask is not going to fit BEHIND the Longbow. It will fit BESIDE the longbow. Id rather get behind the marker personally, as depicted excellently in HOMELANDDEFENDER's picture.

That is a deadly marker too by the way. Hmm. Makes me wonder if I should take my design back a few notches, back to basics. Something a little uglier and a little more light, and in the end more effective.

HOMELANDEFENDER

01-18-2006, 09:55 PM

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Here's a head on of the A5 with JCS stock to show sight picture...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/Businessend.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/LoadedA5.jpg

HLD...

famousgamer

01-18-2006, 11:21 PM

The stock is mounted upside down on that one. You actually clear the tac cap with that lil mounting rail. Thats a cool setup. Sweet. Well, I am pretty convinced that the stock gonna stay nice and low for a good tight shooting stance.

Where did you get that mask/helmet Homeland? Looks pretty lightweight and paintbal friendly.

ThePixelGuru

01-18-2006, 11:28 PM

I like what I've seen of your designs, they're all pretty sweet and I bet I'd be happy using any of them, but for what it's worth I'll offer my two cents.

First, why not a "dogleg" style stock of the sort they sell at Spec Ops Paintball? Do something that curves around the mask and it'd work a lot better, I think. The marker would have better lines, shorter profile, and still have room for a mask. Maybe do an L-shaped stock, attached to the bottom of the gripframe with the end protruding upwards? I'll Photoshop something if you don't understand, but right now I'm lazy.

In terms of the Qloader vs Warp thing, I'd say go Qloader. Since it's milsim, the "clip" thing seems to fit with it better. Keep in mind if you're doing a custom marker, you can easily mount it somewhere other than slung under the barrel so it won't be in your way. On the other hand, if you're still looking for a Warp to test out, drop me a PM. ;)

My advice, though, would be to stick to bent aluminum and keep it simple, yet effective. If you really want to beat the Q-Bow, make something more effective that costs less. And try to stay away from using their parts, nothing says "rip off" like parts from the marker that inspired it. Oh, to answer your question about overly long barrels, keep in mind that it's designed for paintball "snipers" who like to stay hidden. The longer the barrel, the further back in cover the sniper can be.

Keep up the good work!

Jet the Black Dog

01-18-2006, 11:41 PM

Your designs look good, I saw where you were looking for a qloader mounted on a Mag so although the picture quality is poor here you are.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/swgold90/magmod3.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/swgold90/magmod2.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/swgold90/magmod1.jpg

That's my son holding it. right now I'm just using the air tank as a stock, and I have added a red dot scope. :ninja:

MoeMag

01-19-2006, 12:19 AM

How custom are you wanting to get? Are you willing to make an intigrated rail, frame, and stock design? check out the berreta cx4, just cut the stock low. Have you seen that thing it is awsome http://www.cx4storm.com/

Give me a day or two, I might make a concept drawing of what I have in mind.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 01:11 AM

Thanks everyone for the continued support.

Thanks Guru for the comments. I actually never thought about having a long barrel to peek from cover with. Not a bad idea actually. For me personally, and like most of us, I end up abusing a barrel that is too long, and you end up getting that much more energy used up by that extra length which worries me.

A dogleg stock would be cool. They are indeed my fave out there for paintball. I will also try to design somehting in of this variety.

Jet, am I safe to assume that your rig is: A powerfeed left frame with the powerfeed turned downwards pointing to the right and a lapco warp feed adapter (or a qloader adapter) going into the Qloader? Sorry, but I am kinda new to the automag setup. That is one short length of Qloader tubing! Excellent and very tight setup. Thanks for the pic. It looks like, with the sight riser, that you could get a very unobstructed field of view over the marker.

This is interesting, because if it is a powerfeed just turned the one could just turn it back up and play with a hooper if they wanted, or if anything went wrong with the Qloader. Could be handy perhaps?

Also, that is a good question MoeMag. I am not sure if a machinist can do a three dimentional rendering based on a cad file, or do a two dimentional cutting from a flat solid peice of aluminium, or if he will want to simply bend metal and grind peices, and assemble them liek that? Machining is REALLY new to me, but designing isnt. Ugh. Help DSR75. What kinda stuff does your dad do?

LONEWOLFOO1

01-19-2006, 05:29 PM

I put up a post on the specops forum about putting up a pic with themselves holding the longbow hopefully it would get answered.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 06:25 PM

This is kinda the lynchpin of the design. Does the stock look good and go high (like the longbow, black cell), or become practical and go low (like the t-stock and JCS folding stock).

At least one picture of someone sighting up with a Longbow would help indeed. Thanks for posting on the Spec Ops and getting that going.

Coralis

01-19-2006, 06:25 PM

You could mount the Qloader over the stock too that would put the weight on the back near the shoulder which is similar to what you would have now with a tank there ... also i was going to suggest mounting off the bottom of the grip frame but it looks like you've considered that in one of the other pics. On the issue of a long barrel most barrels are step hone or two piece barrels that have the second half of the barrel a larger bore than the back half so I dont think that they effect efficiency that drastically but the do silence the retort of the gun alot if they are ported, and it does help you to shoot through bushes etc while remaining hidden.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 06:31 PM

Hmmm. That makes me think...

There are only really four things we need to figure out, three of which are paramount...
1- the loading/feeding system. This involves a loader and a mouth position.
2- the stock. This is important as this is shaping up to be a woodsy stalker type marker that will probably have to be sighted up for long periods.
3- the barrel choice. Long or short. Carbon or aluminium. On and on.

and finally

4- looks. This is important to me, because I like everything clean and tight. I think everyone does.

Since we know the marker base is the AGD automag, that settles that. Also, which variety of mag to use is also important (classic, ULE custom, etc.) and what body type.

So, knowing this it makes it kinda fun to debate and settle sections of the marker creation. Fun!

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 06:34 PM

and I think this should be the markers logo: :ninja:

A slightly larger stylized version of that would be fun, because it would remind us of the forum that helped us develop the marker in the first place.

LONEWOLFOO1

01-19-2006, 07:06 PM

Ok guys since their was no picture posted i just ordered the whole kit for myself. yes i know it is expensive but if it will help to develop a better automag then i am in. i just hope what is decided here I will get a nice discount on what ever is made from this post. now that i just kicked out 300 bucks you guys better come up with something. i think we all agreed that most of us will use the air thru stock that spec ops use.

one thing i like about the spec ops shroud that it go well with the qloader since i don't own a warp frame.

i am going for the qloader so i needed to buy the mag kit. i know i am getting raped but if we can machine something from it then i am down. just follow thru on what you say guys i just spent my turbo money. i was hoping by now that agd would have made a warp feed tac one body but, hopefully with this post they would make one. i hate the idea of takeing off my tac body i should have bought a rt ule custom. to begin with but the tac one look so cool

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 07:46 PM

Well Lonewolf, in regards to the Tac One issue, it is good we can all learn from that.

In regards to investing in this design, I am all in. Based on the research you can do with the Spec Ops parts, I will gladly personally sculpt or pay for machining for prototypes, etc. I do not mind kicking in. I, by all means, want to see this woodsball carbine become a success.

It would also be nice for AGD, as it would be another avenue for them to have a precense in woodsball.

LONEWOLFOO1

01-19-2006, 07:53 PM

i was on ops gear.com and i found some animations and stuff of guys holding stock guns.

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.322764/sc.22/category.1259/.f

http://www.opsmedia.net/images/animations/teamleaderwoodland.gif

it looks like with some of the stocks you need to tilt your head in to get line of the sight.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 08:00 PM

Hey good find. I like that Opsgear stuff, but man do they gouge you. If it were for airsoft, and not paintball, their prices would be more than cut in half. All in a name. Ugh.

Excellent examples tho. There is a sight riser block, and they are using a tac cap, but it does look pretty comfy and well sighted. That is also an excellent stock shape. I am going to take a closer look in photoshop and gather where those eyelines are headed down the markers.

Oh yeah, a potential logo?
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/stealth.jpg

Kinda goofy, but very rootsy.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 08:13 PM

Well, I guess we have to decide which stance we enjoy most...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/stances2.jpg

I personally like the tightness of the lower one. Smaller profile. Looks comfy. Head can see either way and look either way with impedence. Top one looks cool tho.

If we were to combine what we like about each, we would have a good stance to start designing a stock around.

DSR75

01-19-2006, 08:13 PM

I like the one from post #44. The stocks that I use are all dogleg stocks. They aren't the best cosmetically but they perform the best. They allow quick target acquisition as well as giving head clearance. The stock in #44 appears to give relatively the same amount of clearance or atleast enough for my big noggin to get in there. I like the idea of mounting the Q-loader there. One it frees up your barrel, two it appears it would be easier to change clips, three it keeps everything in tight.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 08:18 PM

This neither looks comfy, or useful.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/nope.jpg

His eyes obviously can not reach the sight without moving the butt of the stock too high on his shoulder. This shape of stock should be ruled out.

By the time he got his risers or offset mount in place, he may as well had just got a little more clearance in his stock and saved some time and money.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 08:21 PM

You know, those doglegs kinda make the best of both worlds. They keep the stock high, and still give enough room. The are also pretty easy to manufacture, as they are just bent metal. I am leaning a little more towards that way now. I have never used one, but on paper they seem the best.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 08:50 PM

Here is a good picture to post in the Spec Ops forum page on the Longbow sight clearance.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/clearance2.jpg

This illustrates how much of the noggin you wanna get behind the marker, and how much you can't get behind it if there is a high stock in the way.

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 10:38 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/warp.jpg

This makes me want to go warp again. SUCH low profile. SO tight. Ugh. This hopper does not use up any room, as it is the space between the body and the front arm holding the hopper. No Qloader placement issues at all. Hmm. But the noise and batteries? Ugh. Just look at that feild of view tho! SO nice.

And I kinda like this grip. Its a little gawdy here, but the placement is interesting to me.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/grip.jpg

In the bottom mounted Qloader design (post #44 i think?) This could also hold a warp if the owner wanted. That means we could kill two birds with one stone! Either mount the warp there, or the Qloader under, depending on preference. Hmmm, I am going to design a drawing for this. This could be good.

MoeMag

01-19-2006, 10:57 PM

Hey there,
Here is a really simple but clean and close idea I had.
sorry its so big.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/MoeRoark/tacmagidea.jpg

HA HA! I resized it. (never done that)

DSR75

01-19-2006, 11:02 PM

I only forsee one problem with placing the q-loader there. The q is approx 12in long (I could be wrong but that's a number i somehow remember associated with the q). That would really prohibit laying down. That's my only concern.

MoeMag

01-19-2006, 11:21 PM

I honestly have no idea how the q-loader mounts, but my intention was for it to run foward and parallel below the barrel. Also another option would to be run it on the side and back along the frame.

I want to know... could a regular clamping feedneck be put on a warp body and then mount the q-loader directly to it, so that it is real close to the side of the gun. That would be SWEET!

famousgamer

01-19-2006, 11:44 PM

Nice drawing, and good idea. That would indeed be optimal stock placement I think.

The Q seems to be popular. No batteries, no noise, etc. It does seem like a great choice.

Here are some more doodles... I should have numbered them. Oops.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/doodles.jpg

kinda just playing around with Qloader placements. Alot of these frame would work with warp feeds as well, if the Q wasnt used.

I hope you dont mind if I photoshop one of your designs onto a mag MoeMag?

MoeMag

01-20-2006, 12:07 AM

No, I don't mind, go for it. I posted it for you to playwith.

However, if you make some money with it remember me :D

famousgamer

01-20-2006, 05:06 AM

No, I don't mind, go for it. I posted it for you to playwith.

However, if you make some money with it remember me :D

Kay. I think this is gonna end up being a non profit sorta thing anyhow... unless AGD makes some... then we should expect some for free, or playtesting! :)

Here are some more doodles, experimenting with clip-type qloaded mags, and a bullpup design. Not sure which is good for what, but worth the doodle I figure.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/doodles2.jpg

famousgamer

01-20-2006, 06:31 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle2.jpg

Prolly not the best idea, as the grip is tilted a little too far back, and may be uncomfortable to hold. This marker would also suck in closer quarters. That is not even counting the fact that the carbon fiber grip has to be cut and replaces with that huge shroud.

Kinda fun still.

famousgamer

01-20-2006, 07:39 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle3.jpg

Dang. I am starting to like it.

The bipod would only really be used for zeroing in red dots and the such. Kinda fun to goof around with tho.

Actually, that handle aint all that bad, as far as position. Hmm. Ill do an overlay with a regular automag tommorow to see how far it is off. I gotta sleep.

famousgamer

01-20-2006, 08:10 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle4.jpg

Still cant sleep. Gonna try again. Im like the Tyler Durden of paintball.

Severe

01-20-2006, 08:45 AM

DSR75

01-20-2006, 08:49 AM

I think I like the one you posted with the Black Cell the most. It would be dificult to machine the housing for the q but I'm sure there is a way. I feel the one where the q is at an angle would lend itself to being broken to easily. Atleast with it inline with the rest of the body it won't receive as much stress.

Jet the Black Dog

01-20-2006, 01:37 PM

Jet, am I safe to assume that your rig is: A powerfeed left frame with the powerfeed turned downwards pointing to the right and a lapco warp feed adapter (or a qloader adapter) going into the Qloader? Sorry, but I am kinda new to the automag setup. That is one short length of Qloader tubing! Excellent and very tight setup. Thanks for the pic. It looks like, with the sight riser, that you could get a very unobstructed field of view over the marker.

This is interesting, because if it is a powerfeed just turned the one could just turn it back up and play with a hooper if they wanted, or if anything went wrong with the Qloader. Could be handy perhaps?

Yep, it is a power feed left, however I cut about 1 inch off so I could use a spyder feed cap on it, the curve of the AGD cap doesn't block the feed tube enough to froce the qloaded balls into the gun. it is a warp feed adaptr again with a spyder cap. Based on those last few picks, if you can find either a plastic mold or a machine shop the folks at qloader may be intrested in your design.

snoopay700

01-20-2006, 02:40 PM

I like the qloader designs, but for quickly replacing the pods that might get a bit akward. Also, not exactly bullpup design per se, but still cool. I'm trying to think of where i'd put it (oh, and normal woodland camo would look better, not that digital crap, no offense, i just don't like the look)

DSR75

01-20-2006, 03:08 PM

snoopay700

01-20-2006, 03:39 PM

Digi camo is better for breaking up the shape of the gun. "Normal" camo still uses geometric shapes which the eye has an easy time picking up. The Marines and The Army are switching to digi camo. My best friend already has his new digi uniform.
I know this, i've heard this, and i don't buy this. I have seen people hiding in it, and they're easier to spot than those in traditional camo.

famousgamer

01-20-2006, 05:18 PM

That is actually an interesting facet in itself: what kind of camo to use.

My only contribution is to make it slightly darker than usual. That makes it a little more in keeping with the stealth theme of the marker. Whether it is digital or regular does not make much difference to me. It would be nice if we could all agree, or close to agree on one type tho. There is still tiger stripe, realistic, etc. We should experiment with a bunch. I just picked digital cuz its hot with SpecOps and the US military right now.

I will chop a few more pics, and try a variety of camo. So, the underbarrel Qloader is the best thing we got going so far? If so, I will continue down this path a while.

EDIT: Also, yeah, I figured that might be a little nuts to machine. Pretty tight and complex shapes. I will try to break it down into a more buildable style, tho I am not exactly sure what can be build/machined from metal, aluminium or plastic.

I am not even sure if we could go the plastic route, as I am sure manufacturing that is expensive as you have to make expensive molds. What would be good tho is we could all get a bunch of plastic shrouds for fairly cheap after the molds are paid for.

I still figure lightweight metals and alloys is the way to go, if it can be machined well. We could always get a computer person to make a CAD file of the final shroud, and then any C and C shop can mill it out. I am also not sure how much that costs either. Hmm.

DSR75

01-20-2006, 05:19 PM

They are easier to spot because they are using the wrong design. Just like you can't use woodland to hide in the arctic, most of what is available is not recommended for the woods. When was the last time we fought a battle in a woodland terrain. That's why I'm currently developing a digi camo that is intended for woods and that design will be incorporated onto the marker.

DSR75

01-20-2006, 05:21 PM

I say either under the barrel or beside and inline with the bottom of the grip frame.

famousgamer

01-20-2006, 05:23 PM

Ill try the inline one as well on the next sheet of doodles, and we can see how the clearance pans out.

famousgamer

01-20-2006, 05:27 PM

I love the image with the integrated Qloader socket. That reduces the overall length by 1-2 inches and gives the marker nice flow.

I'm telling you, that marker, with a classic valve, would sell like hot cakes.

I would still like the option to mount the bottle directly on the markers. Keeping the stock separate would give users that option.

Having the option to mount the bottle and not using the stock is an excellent idea, seeing as the Q housing is really the feature of that one drawing. Tho I do not have a stock interface in mind, I am sure a machinist could figure something liek that out really easily. Ill incorporate this idea into the next batch. Thanks for the heads up.

famousgamer

01-21-2006, 01:00 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/closer.jpg

for comparison purposes. Stock looks a little low still, but due to its placement it should technically feel better than the Black Cell stock placement. No knowing until one is made out of cardboard or wood for demo purposes.

I feel that the bottomline Qloader is not going to have appeal, due to the worry that the pod will get damaged there. I personally dont think it would as much placed here as anywhere else, but I am worried this will still be a major concern.

Besides, people just like that Qloader under the barrel. It has mass appeal. If the Qloader were under the grip, the weight would be more balanced tho. Hmm, Ill doodle one up anyways. We may be suprised.

This is also an example of a warp right frame (pretty rare) being Q fed. I suppose this configuration could work with powerfeeds, as well as perhaps a vert with a super low rise adapter. In that case, the handle on the top would have to be designed more like the black cells riser.

famousgamer

01-21-2006, 01:20 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/closer2.jpg

with bah bahs.

famousgamer

01-21-2006, 01:35 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/closercamo.jpg

famousgamer

01-21-2006, 05:18 AM

I just noticed there are two different stock lengths from SpecOps. The air thru on the Longbow is short, and the others are regular.

I figure, if we went the easy road, we could just slap on a Qloader, adn mill this little adapter to mount any Spec Ops stock, essentially creating the Black Cell automag. Note: This can only be done by drilling into the rear of the classic rail, where people sometimes drill to mount their asa from the rear.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/adapters.jpg

Easy, and really creatable. Then it would be just like the SpecOps buying madness, and mixing and matching. Ugh. That stuff is far too expensive, but at least we would save money in labor. With just the top shroud and adapter to create, milling is greatly reduced.

Not as romantic as milling a whole stocked shroud, but its a start. The good news is that I like the Black Cell automag much better than its Ion counterpart.

famousgamer

01-21-2006, 07:19 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/ugh.jpg

New triggerframe? Ugh. Now that looks tuff.

Severe

01-21-2006, 07:51 AM

I think your concept of mask clearance is spot on. One of the reasons I'm able to use my Simmons scope so well is that I can move the marker across my front (left, center, and right) and still maintain sight picture. While the stock looks more traditional, I've never used one and I'm not sure I can retain the same shooting positions.

Here's a picture of me shooting from the side. I think this picture illustrates how the bottle becomes my stock and in combination with a nice drop forward and a slide on sight-rail I get very good eye alignment.

http://severe.homedns.org/picturealbum/Random%20Paintball%20Pics/slides/Severe_paintball.jpg

For reference, this is a classic, with a 12" J&J ceramic. sight-rail and Simmons 30mm Red-dot. It's a VERY small setup. I actually have a Q-loader system but I haven't set it up yet. I'm lazy! :rolleyes:

By placing the Q-loader beneath the barrel the only thing I would have to change is my front hand position. The length of (or lack of) the drop forward allows shooters to adjust how far back or forward they'd want the marker to sit.

As for stock adaptors, I think the ones that connect to the rail and the trigger frame look great and offer, I think, much better durability.

Troen

01-21-2006, 11:37 AM

you guys were onto something with the intigrated grip/q loader addaptor, with a classic valve, you couldnt sell those quick enough

LONEWOLFOO1

01-21-2006, 12:02 PM

So it is agreed no matter what we design is should be based around spec ops stocks. but keep in mind you have a lot of guys who have tac ones and don't want to shell out extra money for a warp frame any solutions? agd should make a tac one warp feed body.

famousgamer

01-21-2006, 07:39 PM

I agree we should focus on using spec ops stocks, as milling a gas thru might end up becoming more work and expense then just buying one pre-made. If a person were to mill their own stock, then we could just use the same port, or connection point to leave people with the option. So, thats settles that, unless anyone else has anything else to contribute on that topic?

Aslo, should we decide on the fact that we are indeed leaning towards the Qloader as opposed to the warp?

Also, excellent pic severe. That really shows the pose and level of comfort we wanna go for. I am also pretty stoked you are running a classic, and a J and J. Thats a nice tight, and inexpensive yet very effective setup. I would like that to be the starting point for our marker setup personally, cept with a 14 inch J and J. A least that is what I am going to be buying in the next lil while.

That classic rail is so easy to milt thru and design around. No matter how a person upgrades the concept rifle we are designing, I feel we should be basing it around the classic rail.

I will get back to the ops stocks and q loader grip later tonite. Im gonna watch the fights at the local ripper bar. My friends are gonna poo when I tell them how much fun I am having helping design a paintball marker.

mjolnir117

01-22-2006, 12:58 AM

I really think that a qloader is a better base for the design that you are going for, it is much more streamline and goes better with the weighting for the marker

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 03:36 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle5.jpg

Kay. Lets break it down...

The AGD over the Black Cell Ion has:
- a narrow and shorter profile
- lower head position when firing, making for a smaller target
- warp feed right frame allows for a sleek shape, and no long Q loader tubes sticking out
- A longer more complete focal plane across the top of the marker for better intuative aiming and hip shooting
- No air macro lines messing up the bottom of the marker
- A tighter Q loader position, allowing a good look with a shorter barrel length
- a nice grip over the Q loader housing
- a safer and more durable Q loader setup
- Needs three peices to be milled to be a complete package (Q shroud, top shroud and stock adapter)

what it lacks is:
- a foregrip to take the weight off the Q loader (tho the tighter set up does this a little)
- without a vert feed, the marker HAS to be Q fed. No backup plans if Qloader breaks.
- more stuff that I am just not thinking of now

All in all, I like the mag more. Id WAY rather be playing with that mag as opposed to that Ion anyday. The lynchpin is the milling. How much would it be to get those three peices made, and how? If that peice falls into place, this marker becomes a reality.

I hope it does materialize, cuz I wanna play with one!

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 03:49 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle6.jpg

Actually, one could go powerfeed, and tilt the powerfeed down to be fed into the Q Loader tube that way. This is how it is usually done. All one has to do is get a sight mount, or riser, and perhaps a new adapter so the stock fits a little higher. The stock does look a little low when it isnt changed, tho it might still feel better lower.

And this one is in black, to show the difference.

Again, who knows what feels/fits better until a mock up is tried on for size. Anyone wanna get their Automag and cut some cardboard or wood and try these stocks and shapes out?

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 04:09 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/position1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/position2.jpg

I can now clearly see why that JCS stock is so popular. It really does allow for that tight posture. As we can see, our stock does not suit this posture as well as a bottle does. In this pose, a bottle is the stock, and does a pretty dang good job of it.

I am sure the stock will work tho, just not in this tight firing position.... the problem is that this is one of the best firing positions in paintball. I am thinking that our design may want to lend more towards this style of firing position.

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 04:39 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/position3.jpg

something like this would feel better. not nearly as cool lookin tho. comfort should come before looks if the two come to heads however.

maybe we wont have a problen with the higher stock after all, and wont have to worry about total mask clearance?

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 04:41 AM

this real interesting i am looking forward to seeing a solution btw i put this post up in the spec ops forums as well. after some people give their input i will link it over here to the ao forums ahh screw it i'll do it now.

http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?act=ST&f=47&t=39728&st=0#entry444798

i also found a review of the longbow on the spec ops website plus i fond pics of the longbow with a ruler hopefully they would help you

http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?act=ST&f=35&t=31599&hl=longbow&st=15

NO ONE IS POSTING PICS! I wish they would. It would help clear up SO many questions I have about mask clearance. Any probbing people could do to bump that thread would be great. Maybe post some pics of this marker on that thread, and generate some more interest that way?

EDIT: Oops, just clicked the link and noticed that Lonewolf did an excellent job of this just recently. Thanks man.

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 05:24 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/shadow.jpg

for comparison purposes. I bet is we were to put the Longbow air thru on that ADG marker, with that mid level stock adapter, the size would be bang on. Ill try one tommorow.

LONEWOLFOO1

01-22-2006, 09:03 AM

Severe

01-22-2006, 09:43 AM

The one thing the scenario houses haven't figured out yet is there is no such thing as stock weld when it comes to paintball. Masks don't allow it. For those of you who aren't familiar with the term, when teaching shooting techniques, stick weld is the connection point between the shooters cheek/face and the stock that allows for weapon control and good sight picture/sight alignment.

I would hate to recommend re-inventing the wagon wheel but if the SpecOps stock was flipped it would allow for the same shoulder support while allowing the shooters mask more room behind the marker. The catch is, this would require a lower mounting point which shouldn't be a problem is you went with the style that connects to the rail and trigger frame.

For example:
http://severe.homedns.org/paintball/modified-automag.jpg

NinjaoftheNight79

01-22-2006, 01:00 PM

I just have a few quesitons. My first question is, with all of this stuff you are doing, where in the name of all holy are you going to put a remote hook-up? Also, how are you going to open the marker for fixes, cleaning, and repair. From the pictured I have seen, you guys have a lot of screws to worry about. Second off, why not just use a tank? I mean come on, you already have it, its cheap, its a bit heavy (but easy to get used to), and it gives perfect sight clearance. Also, do any of you understand the point of the Black Cell ION kit? I dont mean to get you all POed, but your missing the point. The ION kit is for much more that just a "sniper" role. Its trying to get more high end markers into woodsball/scenario types of play. People at Special Ops get upset because they cant put a stock on X marker, and now Special Ops is looking into a way to do it. I have no idea where any of you get that they dont have enough clearance. I own their A-5 SAW stock, and all I need for clearance is about an inch raise. The longbow and blackcell have plenty of clearance. And you talk about the responce issue of an X-Valve, and how you have to shoot fast for consistancy. If you read the (RT Pro/Tac-One) manual this isnt true. The best range of psi inputs is 750-850 psi. At high (850 psi) input, it is more consistant to shoot fast. This is for faster shooters, and would be great for speedball. At medium (800 psi input) input, its about in the middle, and you can shoot very consistantly at both slow shots and fast shots. It describes it as "for the player who combines rapid firing with an occasional sniper shot". At low (750 psi) inputs, your first shots are more consistant each time. This is said to"benefit a sniper with consistent slow shots". So now if you figure this, you could just pop a regulater on it for about $70. This would let you adjust the velocity down to 750 psi. Or you could just buy an old Classic Valve w/ a lvl 7 bolt. If you got the classic valve, you could even get a 12 gram adapter, and run the marker off of 12 grams. Then, you wouldn't even need a heavy tank or a remote.

Severe

01-22-2006, 02:18 PM

NinjaoftheNight79

01-22-2006, 04:38 PM

Access to the valve has not changed throughout these concepts. It's still retained by the single screw, so gaining access to the valve is as simple as removing the single screw. Once the valve is off, you can clean pretty much everything you need.

Everything else that has been discussed is simply cosmetics. Sure, there are screws to attach these bodies to the existing rail and body but nothing that changes the underlying marker.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "tank". Are you talking about C02/HPA tank or something else? I think the idea here is to allow the shooter to use either a stock OR a directly mounted bottle.

The Black Cell Ion, like every other mil-sim/tactical kit/marker coming out is just a manufactures attempt to capitalize on the sudden interest in these style markers. This is just my opinion, but I think the Ion is a very poor choice for a scenario marker platform. Besides, we're on AO. We want a mag platform! :D

X-valve vs. Classic valve: I currently own both and I can tell you that the Classic has better shot to shot consistency. The X-valve is geared more towards providing a volume of fire and, YES, it's a known fact that the consistency changes on the X-valve/RT/Emag valves based on the shot string. That's why there's a specific method to how those valves have to be chrono'ed. Also, most players are not going to have adjustable HPA systems. Additionally, the ability of classic valves to run on C02 makes them more appealing to the masses. I'm not going to touch the comment on putting a regulator on a mag. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the valve part is strictly up to the shooter. I think these concepts are geared towards retro fitting current mags to be more mil-sim/scenario based.

By tank I do mean a CO2 or N2 bottle. You know, its just as easy to put a tank on your shoulder and call it a stock.

As far as the Black Cell ION, thats not why they made it. I go to Special Op's forum more than I go here. As far as a mag platform, thats what a Tac-One is isn't is? Yet you claim it doesn't have enough sight clearance...

As far as putting a regulater on a Mag, why would that be a problem? I mean sure, you are just killing your recharge rate, but if your going to set it down to 750 psi input and play as a "sniper", one shot one kill right? You dont need speed, and therefor it doesn't really matter, unless I am missing something. If I am missing something, would you be kind enough to inform me instead of insisting on saying that your "not going to touch the comment"? I, as a human beeing, am just trying to make sence of why it really matters to you what Special Ops does, and why everybody is set to "beat them". Its almost like if your not beating Spec Ops, then you dont matter in this world, or atleast thats how many make it seem.

BTW: Not all need an adjusteable tank, as some are preset to 800psi output. With 800psi input, the X-Valve is good for rapid fire and slow shots, so theoretically it should be well rounded velocity wise.

Also: I would just like to let you know that I am not trying to put down your idea. Your idea is great, and its all about what you are personally comforteable with. I respect that you want to make your own stuff. My intentions are to post my ideas, and then hear your idea of my idea, and to learn from it. I really dont know a lot about automags, for I am new to them, but I would like to learn. If this is not the place to do so, please PM me.

Severe

01-22-2006, 05:05 PM

I personally would like to keep my tank/bottle as my stock. I like a self contained rig and I'm not sure a remote would go well with how I like to play. I think right now the idea is to have the stock mount be an option.

The Tac-One works well for sight clearance depending on it's setup. However, having the off-set scope isn't necessary if you have a warp-feed body. I think that is the underlying theme here. I love my Tac-One but I typically play with my Classic if I'm looking for first shot consistency. Frankly the speed isn't that big deal for me; both shoot as fast as I can pull the trigger.

I suppose if you wanted to regulate down to 750psi a regulator wouldn't be horrible, but from everything I've read on AO, it's generally considered a bad practice to put a reg on a mag. A good flow, preset bottle is all she needs to sing.

I'll also throw out an apology. If I came across as abrasive, sorry, that was not my intention.

NinjaoftheNight79

01-22-2006, 05:27 PM

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 05:33 PM

Well, it is nice indeed to see a measure of passion come into the thread :)

You guys got good points. I tend to agreed with Severe, expecially on the points of the classic valve, and the stock as an option. The Classic Mag is the ultimate high performance low end marker, and its price is so low for what you get. This is an excellent starting point for our concept. The Tac One also has to be involved in this design, for peope who already own them, but as a ground up concept I am going to work with the Classic mainly.

The Longbow and Black Cell sniper will simply not feel as good to handle on the feild as any marker will full mask clearance behind the marker. Its an obvious truth that people are afraid to admit, even after looking at hundreds of poses of people firing their paintball markers in the same way. It is no wonder why bottles/tanks are the popular choice for a stock, cuz they are in the right place.

I really want to use Spec Ops stocks as a stock option, as long as we can put them in their proper place. Our paintball is not going to look like a real gun or be arranged like a real gun, because it is never going to be shot like a real gun unless in your backyard unmasked (and unsafe). We are going to combine the best of both worlds. It is a nod of respect to Spec Ops and AGD this way as well. I do not respect the Longbow or Black Cell Ion however.

Also, the shroud on the Qloader, and top of the marker is simply cosmetic. They really are there for looks right now, and represents the final optional phase of the design/construction. I will post some "naked" designs soon, so we can see how they look.

That stock idea is great severe. That design would make for WAY better clearance. I am going to experiment with the Dogleg stock, and repositioning a few of the Spec Ops stocks.

And if we were gonna do a dogleg, we may as well build them, cuz those are dang easy to build. Bent sheet aluminium. Very doable.

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 05:42 PM

Keep this in mind that there is some hieght on the longbow shroud if you do have a tac one not a warp feed body all you need to order is the shroud kit. i order the whole kit and it should be here in a couple of days. but on thing for sure we should implement the spec ops air thru stock to keep parts cost down.

so order the stock only i think thats 80 bucks
and all we need to make is a adaper for it.
or order the jcs but i like the air thru stocks it does'nt expose the air line as much.

I agree. It is going to be nice when you get that kit. You will propell this design into its next phase with pics and information that we cannot seem to get on the Spec Ops site from people who already have owned that marker setup for months.

NinjaoftheNight79

01-22-2006, 05:43 PM

famousgamer

01-22-2006, 05:49 PM

NinjaoftheNight79

01-22-2006, 06:53 PM

Thats an interesting point Ninja. Actually, if it was not for Spec Ops making stocks and add-ons in the first place, I probably would not be as interested in this project. Their air thru stuff is ground breaking to a degree, and their commitment to bringing woodsball into the future is admirable. So... I guess in that case I do respect them indeed.

I just think that the Longbow and Black Cell are a little more marketing, and a little less functionality. I want to inject a measure of usefullness to our marker setup, so paintball stalkers out there can enjoy some of the benifits of marker comfort, feild of view and ADG quality while still have a cool marker they can be proud to own.

And that is a very good idea. While Special Ops motto is "Mods that Make Sence" and many of their mods are very practical, you are looking into a more advanced style. Special Ops ussually tries to stay pretty traditional as far as stocks. Their idea is to make a balanced stock that lets the stock roll to the shoulder just like a real stock, and add some cool features, such as air-through. What you are pretty much doing is making an scenario looking upgrade that looks cool, and replaces the tank with something lighter, yet just as functional. Its kinda a more unique style than anything. I truely respect that. Its a really cool idea. I do wish you much luck with this project. Its starting to look really cool, and has good functions. Personally, I think you are doing really good with this.

famousgamer

01-23-2006, 05:55 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/budget2.jpg

kinda a cheapo version, if we cant get milling done. The backup plan kinda.

Skoad

01-23-2006, 06:45 AM

i've watched this thread on and off, very cool ideas. Getting pretty close to the project I currently am working on. If I can dig through the thread and find what template you guys are using for your setups, I'll see if I can modify it to what I'm doing right now.

I'd have real photos of phase 1 but I ran into a couple nasty problems, along with a busted dremel. Right now I need to figure out an easy way to attach the body to the rail (had to cut off the original way from the understide of the body) and it seems I also need to move the trigger pin forward about 1/8-1/4" and hope I can rig the sear.

EDIT:

Ok here is what I'm working on currently (or have in mind). I wanted to make a nice milsim gun where theres no real visible hopper, no real visible tank or remote line....so this is what I came up with in my mind.

http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/pjct1.jpg

The Q-loader actually feeds in from the bottom. I moved the gripfame back as far as I could, knocked the powerfeed tube off of a stainless body (much cheaper than a ule :P), drilled a hole in the bottom of the body and rail to feed the paintballs up into. In doing this there are NO SIDE TUBES hanging off the side of the gun, it just feeds directly up. The only non-symmetric thing will be the hose traveling 3-4 inches from the valve to the asa on the stock.

This works perfectly with a stainless body because of the twist lock barrel....the barrel actually IS the breech, so I don't have to worry about sealing up the top hole (may get to it later with some bondo).

RAP makes nice butstocks in which you can *hide* a tank, also the buttstock is extendable along that bottom rail. (stocks seen here (http://rap4.com/paintball/os/accessories-butt-stocks-c-22_214.html)) My only real problem is the amount of air is minimal. The nice retractable stock can only hold at max a 3oz co2 tank. I was thinking about buying one of the stocks in hopes of being able to fit a 2 inch diameter tank inside of it after some customizing....if I AM able to get a 2inch diameter tank in (3oz is 1.5inch so need to get an extra 1/2") I'll be able to use 7/9oz co2 or even the 13/22cu 3000psi hpa tanks which would help with air.

Meh, it was an idea that was kicking around in my head for a long time and just had to actually start trying it before it drove me crazy. Right now I've got to modify the sear/trigger a bit and I should be good as far as the qloader mounting. I originally wanted to mount this all in an ar-15 type shell (either real or airsoft). Also the Qloader would be *disguised* as a m203 launcher....or maybe just painted/airbrushed to look the part.

EDIT2:

This was another idea I had. Qloader pods and socket would need some modification but I believe it would be fairly easy to get them to feed out of the TOP of the pod (the top of the end cap). If I could do that I could add a little magazine area with a hole drilled in the front for a tube to go into, then make a 90* turn and feed up into the breech. The opaque area would be inside the magazine section.

http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/pjct2.jpg

Add some cosmetic cover-ups along with scopes and whathaveyou and its pretty ar15ish.

FinchMan

01-23-2006, 08:39 PM

HOMELANDEFENDER

01-24-2006, 07:31 AM

A few things:

1.) Is the stock carbonfiber frame the same height as the intelliframe?
If not, you may want to have a small adapter plate for those people who already have and/or want to use the intelliframe.

2.) In this picture from above:

http://severe.homedns.org/picturealbum/Random%20Paintball%20Pics/slides/Severe_paintball.jpg

You see how much his wrist is bent in that position, this is why we have the yframe...

On normal rifles, 45* frames make sense because the stock is inline with the gun, making the gun longer, like on the longbow.

If we are trying to design a Tactical Mag around the tighter shooting stance pictured, we might want to re-consider the yframe concept. It was designed for a tight stance, and it definately would be more comfortable than a 45* frame.

depending on how tight of a design we want, a vert frame may be better than a yframe. Maybe even a zframe would work, who knows.

3.) Have you considered the apex barrel?
http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/3894/
It would be a nice accessory if a ULE body is used. (cocker threaded) Although it may be a little short and might interfere with the placement/asthetics of the qloader.

maybe if the apex tip was modded onto a 14"/16" (however long is right with the qloader) J&J barrel like here: http://www.mcarterbrown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=forum&board=generalcustom&op=display&num=25262

If this thread was not geared toward Scenario/Woodsball, I'd agree that the Y frame would be a good thing to model after. But IMO the Y frame does not lend itself to a proper carrying position ("patrol ready") when participating in scenario play where part of the game is stalking from one area to the next. The Y also goes against the whole tactical theme as well.

IMO - we should not compare the drawings with rifles - but instead draw comparisons to a small "personal Defense Weapon" such as an MP5 style subgun from HK.
In that respect, you would position your wrist as pictured when using the most of close cover.

HLD...

Severe

01-24-2006, 08:51 AM

Another thing to consider is the length and drop of the drop-forward will change your wrist position. In the above picture, I'm using a VERY long drop-forward, I'm also using part of that large pine for cover and keeping my elbows in tight.

Shooters can change there setup easily by opting for a zero-drop or shorter drop-forward. And there's always the option for the shooter to use a stock. While the Y and Z frames are good for comfort they aren't very practical for any position other than upright. A change to the bottle mount will definitely impact hand and wrist position.

For what's it worth, I'm using an Intelliframe in that picture. My shooting style has me using my index finger on the body of the mag and my thumb under the rear of the trigger frame. I pull/fan the trigger with my middle finder and the rest float. I'm not using a full grip on the frame. Most of the support for the marker is in my right hand and the bottle in my shoulder.

Skoad, That's a very interesting mod you're working on. I'll be interested in seeing how it evolves. Are you going to put any type of optic on it? If so, how tall of a riser are you planning on using to get adequate mask clearance?

famousgamer

01-24-2006, 09:55 AM

Excellent points, and intersting things to consider.

Amazing work Skoad. I cant wait to see how it evolves. Your knowledge of the inner working of the mag is impressive, and you are trully pioneering a first. Well done.

I am going ot have to find out is the intelliframe is in fact the same height as the carbon fiber single trigger frame. That would indeed affect the stock adapters.

I read a bit on the Apex. Sounds pretty good IMO. I fugured, if anyone wanted ot use it with the Q loader you can just add a little fitted PVC tube, and paint the whole thing black. People make homemade "silencers" like this, and most of them look excellent. You would just cut it so you could reach the ramping controls. Very easy mod, and looks nice.

Personally, I might be inclined ot put a slightly smaller tube inside the larger outside tube, fill the difference with foam or gauze, and bore holes in the inner tube to displace the discharged gas. This might make it quiter... or so I have read. If people ask, its a dust cover. :ninja:

Personally, I love the vert type frames. They are not all that expensive either. I am going to ride out the usage of the classic mag/valve/rail for as long as I can tho. After I have exhausted all variations on this marker, I feel I will move up as I personally upgrade my own classic marker.

There is lots more to discuss, but I am gonna sleep for now. Ill leave yawl with a few pics of what I was thinkin about...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/apex1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/apex2.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/cheapness.jpg

famousgamer

01-24-2006, 08:50 PM

of course,for the top two pictures we would have to use a ule body on the classic rail, to make use of the cocker threads. This is, I guess, the only way to get the APEX on the marker, and still get to drill into the rear of the rail for the stock.

Troen

01-24-2006, 09:40 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle3.jpg

best so far, i think...well without the bipod.

HOMELANDEFENDER

01-24-2006, 10:16 PM

The PVC shroud as pictured my not work well with the Apex. It may cause the paint to come in contact with the inner portion of the shroud and due the backspin -- make the balls "wing" out of control.

Just an observation.

You'd be better off getting this for a 14" barrel: http://www.hotshotpaintball.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UMS-APEX-ADAPTER&Category_Code=UMS&Product_Count=17
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/apex1.jpg

HLD...

famousgamer

01-24-2006, 10:29 PM

Yes. Yes that is true. That adapter would rock worlds. I guess if you out that at the end of a quiet barrel the noise will be lessened? It aint the APEX making the 'crack' noise I dont think. Quiet, far, and kinda accurate. Best of most worlds. Thanks for the find.

I liek that one too Troen, and it is one of the more expotic so far. I also think it would be the most easy and fun to reload. The Qloader is in a spot where most of the weight is balanced (while remote) and the grip on the Qloader cover is in a nice spot, and should feel natural.

Personally, if the tank were still on the marker I might lean towards...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/cheapofancy.jpg

Thats just a fancy shroud wrapping the Q housing and a stock. This is actually my personal fave at the moment, if I leave the tank on the marker. The tank should balance out the hopper on the front of the marker, and it might feel quite light in the hands.

EDIT: oh yeah, forgot to mention, in that shroud it leaves room for the foregrip, if one wanted ot still use it to life the Qloader heavy front.

dIVEANX

01-24-2006, 10:32 PM

I see all the pics of the Qbow ION but what about the orginal

http://www.teamtriggerhappy.com/uploads/longbow.jpg

famousgamer

01-24-2006, 10:37 PM

Ugh. Putting the barrel UNDER the stock which travels through the users head and mask still seems kinda strange to me. Longbow... you puzzle me.

DSR75

01-24-2006, 10:37 PM

There is no way you have enough mask clearance on that thing. I still think using a dogleg stock or the tank itself is the best option. Famous, me and you agree. Your favorite is mine as well.

famousgamer

01-24-2006, 10:39 PM

well, with us getting a little closer, we can open a voting thread soon, and poll to see what is whos favorite.

edit: and yes, those doglegs seem great to me, air thru or not.

MoeMag

01-24-2006, 11:13 PM

The drawing that I posted, I noticed you never made a photoshop of it… I was joking about making any money I should have put one of these ( :D ) at the end, I really don’t care. Did'nt mean to scare you off, sorry.Then again if you just did not want to use it, thats cool too.

famousgamer

01-24-2006, 11:42 PM

Well, in that case... allow me to reintroduce... the Moe...mag... automag. :headbang:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/moemag.jpg

MoeMag

01-25-2006, 12:42 AM

That is sweet! You moved the ASA right up to the bend so it would allow for tank clearance. I just might have to make one of my own like that. Thx. :dance:

FinchMan

01-25-2006, 12:43 AM

Well, in that case... allow me to reintroduce... the Moe...mag... automag. :headbang:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/moemag.jpg

that looks pretty sweet. Especially if you replaced the custom 1piece forgrip/stock with a palmers stabilizer to keep liquid co2 out in the cold, and a lapco drop w/ stock: http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/2087/

with that setup, its 80$ for the Qloader, 90$ for the stabilizer, 240$ for the warp right mag, 10$ for the sight rail, 50$ for the drop/stock, say 20$ for the tank, around 50$ for the sight.

so far thats $540
370$ cheaper

and if you wanted the apex tip on a good barrel: Barrel of choice *average* 60$, apex barrel for the tip 120$, apex barrel adapter: 25$

thats $205 more, because apex doesnt sell their tip seperate.

grand total: $745

still 165$ cheaper than longbow.

and as a bonus, these are all off-the-shelf parts. :clap:

famousgamer

01-25-2006, 03:48 AM

Could someone please thank that person for leaving these next pictures on the Special Ops site. Thanks so much. Now, lets get to work...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/longbow1.jpg
I have shown the eye line, and the line where your eye wants to be. Even with the tightest fitting paintball mask on the market: the Vforce Profiler (correct me if Im wrong) the mask STILL bumps up against the mask, not allowing the face to reach the sight line.

Seriously, if one were able to cram their head down far enough to actually see down a red dot mounted on the top rail Id be impressed. They would be a grand yoga master, and worthy of respect. Unfortunately, at this point the marker would be so high the stock would come off the top of the shoulder, becoming more of a tail ormiment rather than an aiming aid.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/longbow2.jpg
This is better. Ahhhh. No more cramathon to make use of all that space above your Longbow. Sorry bout the choppy photoshoppin. It does illustrate the point tho. As an added bonus to not having your head at a 45 degree angle all day just to aim, you also get to look left AND right while still shouldering your marker. Personally, I would place the stock even lower, towards bottle height.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/longbow3.jpg
Ummm, can you say "ouch". How about...
"Cant come into work dude. Got the WORST neck pains from playing paintball"
" Did you get shot in the neck?" asks the co worker.
"No man. Aiming. AIMING!"

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/longbow4.jpg
Ahhh. I almost FEEL more comfortable looking at that picture.

I would like to plainly state that the person holding this marker for the pictures is doing the best he can. You simply can not fit behind that thing and hold it properly with a mask on, and this is no fault of his own that he can not look down the sight rail. Him and his dad have been a huge help tho, so thanks alot for helping with our new design guys.

This is important because I am not slamming this guy. I am very grateful. I am slamming the Longbow stock placement, and I want AGD to ramp up their woodsball platform and bulldoze this error and create a new woodslayer!

siloseven

01-25-2006, 05:19 AM

ok, I have not read any thing on this thred, but I did look at all the pictures. and I was thinking I have not seen any bull-pup design.

like making the kit put the trigger on the fore grip connected to the sear by cables or whatever, and having a kit house the air tank, and sholder prop and have the Q-loader or Warp feed on one side. and have a barrel shoud or something that the player can hold for stabization and grip.

like a Styer AUG or a Einfield L85

Or another thing I just thought of, mounting the Q-loader on some of your posted disigns in place of the foregrip. like a true clip reloading feel?

famousgamer

01-25-2006, 05:22 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/dreammag1.jpg

Just some more concept doodles. Ill try some more with the Q as a grip.

famousgamer

01-25-2006, 05:41 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/dreammag2.jpg

just wanted to fix the top one from the other post. Hmmm, kinda weird huh?

Is this the most compact paintball gun to ever have a 12 oz co2 and 100 round capacity? I might venture to say... perhaps.

siloseven

01-25-2006, 05:47 AM

how do I post pics on here?

go something i did on MS paint from one of you pics, but I can't post it or PM it. do you have an email by chance I can send it?

Not the best looking, but it is somehting I havn't seen.

famousgamer

01-25-2006, 05:56 AM

All art is welcome, and we are quite forgiving. Its the concept and idea thats important after all.

Go ahead an get a photobucket.com account. Its as easy as signing up for a forum. Then upload your pics onto your photobucket, and then copy/paste the pictures IMG code.

You will notice three bars beneath each pic on your photobucket pics. If you paste the IMG one it will appear as that same pic on these forums.

Ask any questions if you hit a snag.

siloseven

01-25-2006, 06:01 AM

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/siloseven/pdw.jpg

for some reason, it is small. the grey thing in the middle is the Q-loader. the blue thing is the air supply. the little grey thing is an optional foregrip.

famousgamer

01-25-2006, 06:07 AM

That pic is actually quite clear, buit yes a little small. Photobucket holds memory, not picture dimentions. That means you should save yer pics at a lower quality, and they will show up as their size on yer computer if everything goes okay.

I will experiment with that q setup. People worry about the ground clearance, and wear and tear when it faces downwards, but I have seen it done on the q site, and it looks cool.

dIVEANX

01-25-2006, 07:11 AM

I was rather uphappy with the fact of having to buy both the Longbow kit and the Qbow kit to make my Qbow that I have contacted Britt from UMS and he is doing a custom Qbow kit for me.

Once he is done Il will post pics but I do agree with the sightline idea.

Fast target aquiring is the name of the game. the faster you aquire your target the the faster the elimination will come and hence less paint used.

I have shot Rorys (for SpecOps actually the one in the picture I post earlier) marker and it felt good but as you pointed out you still have to try and tuck your head lower then it can go.

I have a scenario this weekend but the marker is getting sent off next week so as soon as he is done, Ill post pictures.

Our only concern is how to make the magwell for the qloader to fit to the body. The rest is relatively easy

FinchMan

01-25-2006, 02:18 PM

LONEWOLFOO1

01-25-2006, 05:59 PM

This is excatly what i want i already own a tac one and since agd don't make warp tac one frames. this is a great alternative to q/long bow owners this is what i had in mind to do when my longbow comes in. it would be cool if you can fold it right up when you are not playing. the cool thing about the bracket is that you can get them larger and longer for the bigger players.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/longbow2.jpg

famousgamer

01-25-2006, 06:50 PM

Divanx, I hope that your custom milling exceeds your expectaions, as you deserve to have a killer marker setup after buying 2 longbows! The information that you pass along to us here has helped, and will help even more when you get that marker back.

I agree with LONEWOLF, and no TAC ONE frame users should be left behind. To really get that TAC ONE working all one would have to do is get that stock lower down. Spec Ops custom hand mills all those shrouds by milling sheet metal (with the holes, logos, etc.) cutting and then bending the metal. A mill shop should be able to cakewalk through this, tho I am not sure. If the rear shroud is all you gotta make, and if you got the other longbow parts to use, this would work out nice for vert feed users. If a millshop can do it with no problems, and relativley low funds, then I might consider going vert frame as well.

On top of this, a folding stock would realy be tops. In this case we could just make some type of interface that allows all tippy a-5 stocks. That would provide some huge variety.

famousgamer

01-25-2006, 07:09 PM

Ninja said that the Longbow has "plenty of sight clearance" on the Spec Ops forums. Maybe you just didnt see all the pics here, where I raised the contrast up. You can plainly see the eye aint gonna reach a sight without pullling some serious yoga all day, and that 'clank' of your mask making contact whenever you wanna target someone. Neither is fun, or effective, or worth the 900 dollar price tag.

One could use risers tho, yes. Or a two inch tall red dot. One could build a stack of risers on any marker for that matter, but why not just fix the problem: the stock placement.

EDIT: or maybe you just thought the photoshopped version with the lower stock and raised hands was the picture originally sent in. Check it out...

The original is this...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/longbow1.jpg

and in the photoshopped version I made these following changes:
- raised up both hands and the marker to meet the eye line
- lowered the stock to make room for the mask/head

You will see that the eye line has become the sight/red-dot line
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/longbow2.jpg

Really what I wanted to do is straighten the head so it isnt on an angle. No one should spend all day playing paintball like that.

Wth the head straight, aiming is easy, aim with either eye, snap shooting becomes a reality, you can look left AND right without un-shouldering your marker, etc. We could give plenty of reasons why a gazzilion paintball players shoot ONE way, and not the Longbow way. There is no reason to have your head clunked against a stock post all day, as it only will effect your paintball in a negative way.

Trippzilla06

01-25-2006, 07:30 PM

I noticed this thread, and it peaked my interest, I'm new but I do have some input. It seems that your going with, or leaning to a Warp feed, and some kind of Railing for a Reflexive Scope. But this clearance thing is raining on your parade, for some ideas, I'm into airsoft and paintball, but they have elevated Scope Rails maybe you could use.

For Copy Right purposes they won't allow me to provide a direct link but.
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/Category go under where it has listed AEG/AEP, scroll down to "Accessories", and then on the other browser to the immediate right , go to "Scope Rail & Mounts" I have an G&G GR16, possibly a CA M15A4 soon, I was thinking about attaching a ACOG to the top of my S.I.R. and I realized I still want to use my Iron sight, so I'd have to get an elevated Scope Rail, to still be able to use my Iron sights, and use the Scope, because I took off the Carrying Handle.

P.S. I'm probably going to get a TAC-ONE Soon, it's a great weapon, and similar to my M4 in specs, the Selective Interface RAIL system I have on the foregrip, etc.

EDIT: If this does help you, I have hundres (literally) links to para-military and military sites, I can help you track down something to mount on the common 20mm accessory rail which appears to be the dimension you'll be using.

borph

01-25-2006, 09:08 PM

<img src="http://borph.home.mindspring.com/one.jpg"><br>
<img src="http://borph.home.mindspring.com/two.jpg"><br>
<img src="http://borph.home.mindspring.com/three.jpg">

here's a good thread:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29897

Excellent designs man, keep em coming!

FinchMan

01-26-2006, 01:59 AM

Very nice setup, it looks awsome. I like the idea of mounting the qloader there when running remote.

How do you like the zmag?

One nice thing i see on the qbow, and a few of the concept drawings, is the long picante (sp) rail. It would be cool to get a semi-custom sight rail that mounts like a normal one, but has a long picante rail that runs the length of the body. It would only work on warp bodies, but I think it would be pretty cool...

borph

01-26-2006, 01:42 PM

Thanks very much! It's taken me years to assemble coz so many of the parts hadn't been made in such a long time. Thank goodness for eBay and AO Classifieds!

I've been pleased with the Zbody in spite of it's gimmicky backspin control. It's fun to mess around with off the field, but not something I pay much attention to during a game.

Galactic Systemz went outta biz and now there's nowhere to find parts if something breaks. Wonder why AGD doesn't acquire rights to manufacture defunct aftermarket parts.

anyway, check this design:
http://www.gunfx.com/pages/projects.html

Very nice setup, it looks awsome. I like the idea of mounting the qloader there when running remote.

How do you like the zmag?

famousgamer

01-26-2006, 02:23 PM

What a great setup Borph. Wow. I never figured you could get so much clearance by mounting the asa at the rear like that and use an air thru. That z frame is nice too. The sight rail is the perfect height, and I bet you cant even feel the Q loader weight with it so central like that. I even like the extended foregrip. Well done.

I am personally going to be picking up my own marker to start modding soon. I am very close to deciding the initial setup, and wanted to clear everything with you guys first. Ill post later tonight with my wish list.

Also, if anyone is interested, last time I looked there was a Z body on Ebay for fairly cheap. If you are interested, do an ebay search right away and hopefully it is still there.

LONEWOLFOO1

01-26-2006, 05:26 PM

i was looking around on the spec ops forum and somebody put this on their longbow my only problem is if i had to fire from my left would'nt i be in trouble. (face hitting shroud from left side) but a great effort from the guy

RIDDICK

There is a seperate piece that attaches to the stock that allows it to attach to the shroud with four little retractible domes. So, instead of the longbow stock right now, I have a dogleg stock on which helps with all of your complaints of the length and the line of sight. This is how mine it looks right now

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/Riclclick/dogleg2.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/Riclclick/dogleg1.jpg

DSR75

01-26-2006, 05:41 PM

Tripp,
We are wanting to get away from the raised sight rails. The lower the profile the better.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 01:33 AM

ve seen that topic over at AO and i think they are taking it too far....

-i dont think they hav figured out that posture is different with a "tactical" gun over a normal marker.
-in some drawings they have taken the stock and mounted it all the way down where a bottle would be.

talk to protocoach (or any other longbow/q-bow owner)... they all say that they have no problem with siting. like i said, i think they have taken it a bit too far over at AO.

from the Spec Ops boards.

I am very willing to admit I have gone too far once I see a dozen or more pictures of people sighting up their longbows with ease. Hundreds of people own a longbow, and I am pretty sure that after shelling out the cash to buy a Longbow some may have enough personal wealth to own and operate a digital camera.

The stock is in the wrong spot on the Longbow, in my opinion. Other people have their opinions too, and thats fine. I am man enought to admit when I am wrong, when I am proven wrong. Mind you, there are alot of other problems with the Longbow besides the stock, but they are so obvious it seems silly to debate them.

I love the idea of the Longbow, and really want to see that idea brought to life. I also love the notion of the paintball sniper. Thats right, I said it. The S word. I personally refer to snipers in paintball as stalkers, as I see it as a little more fitting. I just want a great stalker marker that actually works to improve a stalkers game, not make it more challenging. The Longbow specializes in the latter.

There aint no disclaimer saying a Longbow operator needs to buy a VForce profiler mask to look through a sight mounted on the top picatinny, and there is no disclaimer saying that they will also need to purchase additional sight risers in order to see through a red dot. That seems unfair to me, and I feel very justified in sharing that to others that do not have that information as of yet.

Our posts are a great way to vent, and problem solve in light of the Longbow debaucle. We have done some serious good here, and I personally feel much more educated as a result of reading peoples opinions here. I think that is the Special Ops gurus were to have read this thread they would realize they cant drop the ball, or people will notice. That does everyone a huge favor in the end.

Anyways, back to the designing...

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 01:38 AM

That dogleg stock not only "doglegs" around the head, but also drops down a little, putting the butt of the stock in the proper place it seems. Seems like the best Longbow stock to me. Should have been standard on every one. True about the shooting switch position tho Lonewolf.

If the stock was lower, and nice and tight, one could rest the stock on the chest, or either shoulder... even pivot the marker on whatever spot on the body, kinda like stock snap shooting. That would be the most useful stock in my opinion.

borph

01-27-2006, 02:45 AM

Thanks, I appreciate your compliments! The genuine AGD back bottle adapter really did the trick. Wish they'd made more of those!

Had to order the CMS Upgrade to mount the Q on the grip frame. It should come standard for what they charge! Even so, it makes the balance almost perfect. Sure beats the weight of four 9v batteries running two motorized gizmos dangled off to one side! (no offense AGD)

Pro-Team makes a new one: http://www.proteamdirect.com/proteam/bgfolforgrip.html
Mine is their original Armson folding foregrip.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

What a great setup Borph. Wow. I never figured you could get so much clearance by mounting the asa at the rear like that and use an air thru. That z frame is nice too. The sight rail is the perfect height, and I bet you cant even feel the Q loader weight with it so central like that. I even like the extended foregrip. Well done.

I am personally going to be picking up my own marker to start modding soon. I am very close to deciding the initial setup, and wanted to clear everything with you guys first. Ill post later tonight with my wish list.

Severe

01-27-2006, 09:45 AM

I don't necessarily think that raise scope rails are bad thing. I personally like that my scope is 2-3 inches above my barrel. That way I'm not looking over, around or through my barrel when attempting long range shots.

Scope rails really don't impact the markers ability to be low profile since anything below your eyes is fine. I think the low profile mostly comes from moving away from a traditional hopper to a Warp or Qloader.

Whats so appealing about this thread are the designs where the Qloader mount is integrated into some sort of sleeve giving the marker a very unified look. The stock options are always going to be subject to player preferences on shooting. I personally will keep my tank on my marker.

I think it would be great if some of these designs evolved in to real options that people could buy. But to appeal to more players I think some effort should be put on supporting mag owners with power-feed and direct-feed bodies also. The more versatile the add-on is, the more potential users.

The real negative of the Q/Longbow is the price. Beat that by a substantial margin and you'll see players more willing to use your offerings.

Anyway, as far as materials, has anyone played with resin casting? It's fairly inexpensives, can be very durable depending on the mixture and could possibly be used for a very quick turn around time on making some of the components discussed here.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 02:28 PM

It is interesting you should mention resin casting. This is a company I have sculpted for (I did most of the Demon of Rage, among several other minis on the market), ULTRAFORGE LINK (http://www.ultraforge.org) ,and these miniatures were all cast in resin.

Resin casting is actually quite possible, and is as durable as plastic or metal if done the right way. It would also be pricey, but not overly pricey. I could also hand sculpt the original, as I sculpt often.

I would suggest getting a pro company to handle the mold making and reproduction (pouring) tho. I can do mold making for miniatures, but for ther bigger stuff there is gear that helps that I dont have. I know lots of people in the industry, and they would be more than willing to help at a price.

I'll order my marker from agd and my Q Loader soon. After I get these things I will start sculpting. If there were people that wanted to buy these shells to compensate for the cost of making them, it would work out nice. I am not sure about the legalities however, and would have to investigate if this is possible to even market. In regards to most things, you cannot sculpt anything to interact directly with it without having rights. Anyone know anything about this?

Of course, everyone who has contributed to this post and is interested in a shell, if they get made, would receive them at cost, or wholesale. Cost of materials basicly.

I will also contact the folks at Q Loader and let them know about the project. Maybe they can throw in a Q Loader at cost to get it going, for the benifit of all?

Severe

01-27-2006, 03:07 PM

Contacting Q-loader directly is an excellent choice. One of the scenario teams I frequently play with is sponsored by them and the captain has mentioned that Q-loader would like to see a Q specific marker. I think if you were to approach this the right way they may show some serious interest in this. Or it could be my wishful thinking! :D

If they were able to offer a sleeve mount similar to this drawing you did:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/rifle4.jpg

That could be very beneficial to both AGD and Q-loader. Something that mounted via slide on or possible screwed to the frame would allow for almost ANY body style. This would make it appeal to pretty much any mag owner.

When you get your Q-loader, be sure to pick up the Custom Mounting Socket. This will allow you to mount the Q as close to the trigger frame as you like. It also lets you have the feed tube from the Q-loader exit any side you wish.

**edit**
It just dawned on me that the above concept AGD/Q-loader marker looks like what could possibly be the next gen FN303.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 04:00 PM

Well, housing the Q Loader to the front via a cool looking/feeling shroud is very doable. The trigger frame and stock would be a little trickier.

Does the actual trigger connect to the trigger frame which connects to the marker, or simply connect to the marker? I know nothing about the trigger system yet, as I dont have one in front of me yet. I could just cut the carbon fiber grip frame and add to it, but would rather make a single unit that just bolts on like the trigger/grip frame. Maybe a technical drawing would help.

As far as a Q specific marker, I dont know what other marker would be more Q specific. I will see if the folks at Q dig it. A Q specific marker has to be the Automag. It is simply the best choice for a marker platform, bar none.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 04:23 PM

Wow. It really is like an fn303. Riot controllers are just envious of paintballers :)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/fn303.jpg

Severe

01-27-2006, 04:45 PM

The trigger is housed in the trigger frame. It's free floating on a single axis with a cross block safetly. The sear is mounted in the rail by either a bushing (classic rail) or sear pin (RT Pro and up rail). The sear contacts the trigger via a sear rod that passes horizontally through the trigger frame and coming out directly behind the trigger/trigger shoe. Hopefully that description will help a little. For a visual representation, check out the exploded diagrams at www.airgun.com in the support section.

It would be possible to have your stock mount on the existing fiber single-trigger frame by acting like slide on grips and also anchoring to the rail below the valve. Again, resin casting or some sort of vaccuum forming could do this fairly easily I'd imagine.

borph

01-27-2006, 05:02 PM

Does the actual trigger connect to the trigger frame which connects to the marker, or simply connect to the marker? I know nothing about the trigger system yet, as I dont have one in front of me yet. I could just cut the carbon fiber grip frame and add to it, but would rather make a single unit that just bolts on like the trigger/grip frame. Maybe a technical drawing would help.

The grip frame hinges the trigger, which pushes the trigger rod, which rocks the sear, which releases the bolt and cycles the on/off valve.

here ya go
http://www.airgun.com/Images/rtblowup.pdf

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 05:35 PM

Sweet. As an afterthought I was thinking that making a new grip would probably throw off intelliframe users. Some people would not want to go back to a single trigger. It would be nice to appeal to the broadest range possible.

Doing the front part is easy. In this drawing it shows a super easy concept for a two part shroud. This could be made of anything, as it does not have anything really mounted to it at all. It kind of floats there. The sight is mounted on an aftermarker automag sight rail (there ae a few to choose from, i like the cool low black one) and there is still room to screw in the foregrip.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/shroudpeices.jpg

Now, the only issue with this is the foregrip. The Q loader cant be mounted to it, as it is removable. Can the grip be cut down, or is there an easier/cheaper alternative? I guess one could use the special mounting stuff from Q loader, but would that still allow for the foregrip to be installed if one wanted? Any pics of how that Q loader attaches to the marker rail while still allowing the foregrip, while not being directly attached to the foregrip would be nice.

The rear of the marker will be trickier. I am leaning towards the special ops adapter again, as it would be used with any trigger frame, so long as it was a classic rail. I still dont know if the RT rail can be mounted from. Either way, anyone could buy a classic rail, as they are fairly cheap.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 05:47 PM

It would be a real cool thing too if Q loader unveiled a new BLACK Q pod to go with something like this! Man, that would be savage.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 06:05 PM

Just as an idea for the stock... what about this?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/shroudpeices2.jpg

By not going air thru, what advantages do we have?

- You could shoot with either hand, and snapshoot if the stock rested and pivoted on the chest (like speedballers do with just the bottle as a stock).

-The weight of the tank would also balance out the weight of the Q Loader when it is full of paint, making the trigger frame the balance point.

- There would be no hose to snag.

- dont need to buy a remote line, or a vest or pouch to carry the bottle in.

Cuz really, the stock is kinda exactly where the tank is anyways on most of the drawings. It is fairly optimal placement, and I am not sure if it really needs to be replaced by going remote? Maybe remote is the bomb and it will be way better than a bottle on the marker? I personally have no experience with going remote, so I am not the expert here by far. Any input here would be killer.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 07:21 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/silenced.jpg

Hey look. Its the quietest marker in the world. Unfortunatley it is also illegal in the US. The good news is that I am in Canada.

The sediment filter silencer, supposedly, requires no housing. The filter, placed over the end of the barrel, is supposed to suppress most of the "crack" noise from firing. Sediment filters are also really cheap, ranging from 3 to 10 dollars.

The marker looks pretty deadly, and it would be pretty tricky to get everything really straight. If it did work tho, it would sweetness.

EDIT: actually, this marker would need a sight riser. If one were to aim high for a long shot, the barrel would start to get in the way, as was mentioned earlier.

FinchMan

01-27-2006, 08:22 PM

heh heh, you could used a lapco machine gun shroud.

http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-16991305017813_1877_1462588 :shooting:

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 08:29 PM

Yeah. then one could also say its just a lapco machine gun shroud!

Well, a lapco machine gun shroud, AND a filter to make sure that no rust or water contaminants make it into the marker barrel. Yeah.. thats it.

famousgamer

01-27-2006, 09:19 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph.jpg

I leant Borph my gun and he hasnt given it back yet. :rolleyes:

Anywho, here is a scale representaion of someone holding a marker design. I can already see that I need that stock length to be adjustable. That sight might also need a riser. Interesting that I am now going back and raising the profile. Ironic.

Borph. Gimme my marker back now.

Gatorade

01-27-2006, 09:37 PM

Here's my favorite stock - worthy of a look in my opinion. It mounts to the bottomline, and can be turned rightside up or upside down (I prefer it in the confirmation shown):
http://bp-usa.com/big_product_pics/66189.jpg
They also make them in adjustable lengths:
http://bp-usa.com/big_product_pics/66190.jpg

Kind of eliminates the need for an adapter. Only problem is it's not an air-thru, but that can be solved by mounting some fittings and macroline to it.

In my opinion, if you're going to use the tank on the gun, you don't need a stock. Just brace the tank on your shoulder. You only need a stock when running remote.

egb groupie

01-28-2006, 08:23 AM

Hey look. Its the quietest marker in the world. Unfortunatley it is also illegal in the US. The good news is that I am in Canada.

Suppressors are not entirely banned in the US, approx. 35 states allow them, as long as you pay he proper taxes and fill out the proper forms.

I would expect for suppressors to be highly illegal in Canada, considering the draconian gun laws that have been enacted there...

borph

01-28-2006, 01:35 PM

As far as a Q specific marker, I dont know what other marker would be more Q specific. I will see if the folks at Q dig it. A Q specific marker has to be the Automag. It is simply the best choice for a marker platform, bar none.
I agree wholeheartedly, and strongly believe a project like this could breathe new life into AGD, even if it meant teaming up with a competitor. No marker can outshoot the Automag, and no loader can outfeed the Q. This marriage just makes sense.

Sweet. As an afterthought I was thinking that making a new grip would probably throw off intelliframe users. Some people would not want to go back to a single trigger. It would be nice to appeal to the broadest range possible.
Bear in mind also that AGD's carbon fiber grip frame is angled slightly more acutely backward than most .45 grips out there. You'd want to make something that'd work equally well with any grip.

Now, the only issue with this is the foregrip. The Q loader cant be mounted to it, as it is removable.
There are two parts to the foregrip, the foregrip itself
http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=436&categoryID=91
and the vertical ASA adapter
http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=87&categoryID=16

It'd be easiest to mount the qloader to the vertical adapter using the hardware the comes with it, but then you couldn't use the gas-thru feature of the grip. There is a 90 degree mount in the Q's CMS upgrade kit which could sandwich between the vert ASA and body rail if you had a 1/8" longer screw, but that might not allow enough clearance to screw in the foregrip. The only way to overcome that is to bend the straight adapter at the right length to go there (could be difficult), or else mount their 90 degree onto the barrel instead (caca). Could mounting the Q to the stock be an option?
http://www.qloader.com/images/aic_pic_players_26.jpg
Lots of great pics in their players' gallery

I still dont know if the RT rail can be mounted from. Either way, anyone could buy a classic rail, as they are fairly cheap.
You'd ruin an original RT rail by drilling holes, as it is gas-thru.<br><img src="http://store.airgun.com/images/product/large/lg_442.jpg"><br>However, ULE and Pro rails are not.

By not going air thru, what advantages do we have?

- You could shoot with either hand, and snapshoot if the stock rested and pivoted on the chest (like speedballers do with just the bottle as a stock).

-The weight of the tank would also balance out the weight of the Q Loader when it is full of paint, making the trigger frame the balance point.

- There would be no hose to snag.

- dont need to buy a remote line, or a vest or pouch to carry the bottle in.

Cuz really, the stock is kinda exactly where the tank is anyways on most of the drawings. It is fairly optimal placement, and I am not sure if it really needs to be replaced by going remote? Maybe remote is the bomb and it will be way better than a bottle on the marker? I personally have no experience with going remote, so I am not the expert here by far. Any input here would be killer.
By requiring the 12oz CO2 mounted on the bottomline, you're limiting this upgrade to those who run a Classic valve since ReTro and Xvalve operate only with compressed air or nitrogen. Another thing under rapid fire, your valve WILL FREEZE UP. This is the biggest annoyance by far with CO2, and it is SO WORTH the extra dough not having to worry about shooting too fast! I ran CO2 on-gun for a long time. After purchasing a Flatline 3000, I modified the design of AGD's drop-forward and came up with a longer "raise-rearward" which put the tank in a stock like position for more comfortable shouldering. I used this setup 'til I found my gas-thru stock and back bottle adapter. Scored an old gas mask bag from the Army/Navy surplus store for $20 which fit the 68ci tank and two reload pods perfectly, so I stuck with it ever since. Running remote saves SO much weight, my arm NEVER gets tired from carrying it anymore. The coiled hose stays close enough to my body it's never snagged on anything.

It all depends on your personal preference and style of play. Try both and see what works best for you.

actually, this marker would need a sight riser. If one were to aim high for a long shot, the barrel would start to get in the way, as was mentioned earlier.
If you have to aim THAT high for a long shot, you should get closer before giving away your position. Chances are your paintball will have decelerated enough to bounce off rather than break on target.

I leant Borph my gun and he hasnt given it back yet. :rolleyes:

Anywho, here is a scale representaion of someone holding a marker design. I can already see that I need that stock length to be adjustable. That sight might also need a riser. Interesting that I am now going back and raising the profile. Ironic.

Borph. Gimme my marker back now.
Haha, I'm holding it for ransom! I REALLY like your stock design in that picture much more than previous ones. Good for righties or lefties, and making the length adjustable would be perfect! The ability to rotate the butt would be nice too. Mine is about 20 degrees to the left so it makes a good fit between the shoulder and pectoral muscles.

famousgamer

01-28-2006, 04:48 PM

Ugh. Freezing valves! Hmmm, i think I may want to go gas thru/compressed air after all.

I suppose it really wouldnt be a genuine AGD is is was'nt on Air, as certain upgrades and markers simply dont work with Co2, making it a real hinderance to many players. Good points Borph. If we were going back to gas thru, then we would be going back to easy-to-mill stock adapters, or bottomline mounted stocks like the ones Gatorade pointed out.

AT least we can drill into the classic and ULE rails. That is good news. To bad about the gas thru RT rail. If an RT custom owner had to buy a simple rail to facilitate the stock adapter/shrouds, I wouldnt mind so much. Fairly cheap upgrade.

If we are using an air thru stock in the end, it wouldnt matter so much if we could use the air thru feature of the foregrip, by mounting the Qloader to it. I do like the fact that the grip part would be removable. That would give the marker a very rifle like feel when wanted.

I kind of look at it this way. The marker either 1: has a retractable stock and foregrip combo option for getting in tight when needed, or 2: is a small compact rifle-like configuration. In woodsball do we really need that get-in0tight aspect? Should we be focusing on a more carbine type weapon? If so, we could loose the foregrip alltogether and move the Q loader housing as close to the triggerframe as possible.

Severe

01-28-2006, 07:39 PM

Just a quick heads up. Only the original RT's that use the Banjo-bolt have internal gas lines. The RT Pro, and newer rails should be fine.

famousgamer

01-28-2006, 08:50 PM

Are you sure? If that is the case, I would get a ULE custom and drill thru the rail for the stock adapter. the ULE warp right body would be perfect with the Q Loader, and as a starting point for the woods project marker.

The reason I am so interested is because I am buying my first AGD marker soon to start this woods project, and am torn between upgrading a classic, or getting a fairly stock ULE custom. The rail drilling thing is really the clincher. If I could drill in that rail, Id get the ULE custom.

ThePixelGuru

01-28-2006, 09:10 PM

Good ideas, guys, there's a lot of great looking and comfortable setups here. The biggest problem that I see with the way you're going about designing these is that you're doing it all in a vacuum. What I mean is that while you guys are coming up with some great designs and they look great with someone standing there aiming the marker around, you've got to consider where they'll be used and how they'll work for that setting. Longer, flatter markers/guns are great for long-range engagements and crawling through bush, and short, tall setups excel at close-range combat with tight bunkers. ...Or did you guys already consider all of that in your designs and just not mention it here?

Keep it up, though, that's some badass gear.

famousgamer

01-29-2006, 05:44 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph2.jpg

Here is a Borphed/MoeMaged automag shroud. Its a long marker, but should be as balanced as Borphs in the lower part of the picture. The frame/shroud could even be skeletonized to provide perfect balance with a full hopper of paint on board.

This configuration wins the balance game, hands down. Its profile is also quite low, dispite the Q on the bottom. The marker setup I did was with a warp left frame. Prolly ULE. This lowers the top, so one could simply use a mag sight rail. A riser could be used if on a Tac One, or vert feed ULE body, etc. and would be fed to the top like on borphs.

This would have to be redesigned for intelliframe users, but not by much I dont think.

Milling this thing would be a cinch, as it is pretty much 2D milling for the most part. The thing would have to be milled of metal, not cast in resin. I could make resin foregrips tho.

What are the thoughts on this config?

famousgamer

01-29-2006, 06:03 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph3.jpg

EDIT: here is one with a rifle foregrip beyond the vert foregrip

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph4.jpg

NXD 5150

01-29-2006, 11:11 AM

WOW theres alot of great ideas in here! Its hard to pick a favorite.

paintball_fiend

01-29-2006, 02:26 PM

i really love famous last ones simple and cool i would buy it if it werent too expensive and made out of aluminum so it wouldnt wiegh a ton

LONEWOLFOO1

01-29-2006, 04:57 PM

Hello people it been a couple of days.

since then i saw this its a riser that would be used to put the scope up i know some guys prefer to have a lower profile but these are for the longbow users that don't want to change the placement of their stock

http://opsmedia.net/email/012606/b2.jpg

here is a link to their product

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.322764/sc.22/category.1434/it.A/id.3576/.f

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.322764/sc.22/category.66/it.A/id.2722/.f

this link is for all you future q loader users its a dump bag so you can throw them into the bag while you are on the field here is the link

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.322764/sc.22/category.1434/it.A/id.3231/.f

Severe

01-29-2006, 05:40 PM

famousgamer

01-29-2006, 08:09 PM

since then i saw this its a riser that would be used to put the scope up i know some guys prefer to have a lower profile but these are for the longbow users that don't want to change the placement of their stock

That riser actually looks pretty good, and it looks like he had enough mask clearance without pulling a yoga head.

I am making alot of yoga references because my girlfriends sister keeps talking about it, and how much yoga hurts. I am still tyring to figure out why she is still going. :tard:

The problem with SpecOps parts and accessories is they are outrageously priced.

I personally hate Spec Ops system of pricing things. The exact types of labor and materials go into airsoft parts, as was mentioned, but somehow when it gets fixed to a paintball gun it becomes ten times more expensive?! It upsets me, and it enforces a sort of elitist quality to the Spec Ops stuff, which I find useless and negative. This coupled with the fact that Spec Ops stuff doesnt always perform due to poor design.

Having said that, Spec Ops stuff is still pretty cool. Eye candy galore.

If that Borph type frame was made, it would be just as easy to make the stock attached to the frame, and not use the Spec Ops stock. I dont think a variety of stocks would look good on that frame anyways, so I wouldnt mind loosing the customizability. If a stock were designed and milled from the same peice of aluminium, it would be 1: cheaper and 2: easier, and perhaps even 3: look better. We could just fix the stock asa to the rear of the stock, and viola... instant air thru for a fraction of the cost.

We might then have some money left over for paint! :wow:

Ill try fixin a stock to the body.

Ugh, just thought: It would be like perma-stock, even when you wouldnt want one. The ultimate would be a folding stock, that tucks away in a good spot. I wonder what is involved with creating a folding stock? The turning/locking mechanism, etc.

famousgamer

01-29-2006, 09:50 PM

For more perma-stock frames, check this out.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph5.jpg

The bottom two have a larger profile from top to bottom, but less mass. This may be a better configuration if we require more mask clearance, as those two designs at the bottom got clearance for days!

They are based on the MK1 Carbine

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph6.jpg

If you like the carbine, this could be the configuration for you?

mobsterboy

01-29-2006, 10:15 PM

famousgamer

01-29-2006, 10:36 PM

and anyone cares? you are gay, get used to it

Whats is the point of even saying this? We were having a mature conversation. Do you mind?

paintball_fiend

01-29-2006, 11:54 PM

famousgamer

01-30-2006, 12:02 AM

To be honest, I have never tried it. I did some hardcore research tho. Some people who have tried them say they are the best, and there is no need to try anything else.

The middle of the filter is hard, and has lots of holes just like a regular silencer. In fact, it is exactly the same except is is not totally enclosed. Supposedly it is actually louder once you put a cover on it.

At the price of a filter (3 to 10 dollars) you could experiment and see the results for really cheap.

The mag makes little noise other than the pop from the barrel when it fires. I really do think that this would be one of the most quiet paintball markers out there is the silencer works.

EDIT, and oh yeah, sliding the filter over the porting will not quiet the marker. You have to have it hanging out from the tip of the barrel. About 75 percent of the filter should be suspended after the tip of your barrel ends. This is to dampen the explosion of air leaving the tight confines of the barrel. It will not work over the porting holes as they do not allow much noise to escape.

To get the filter tight to the barrel, just wrap electrical tape in two spots where the filter meets the barrel. If the tape is the right thickness after several wraps, the friction fit should be perfect.

paintball_fiend

01-30-2006, 02:06 AM

found these on pbreview
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d192/laramiepaintball/Sniper.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d192/laramiepaintball/Sniper2.jpg
i know it is not an mag but meh

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326849

Barjack420

01-30-2006, 04:52 PM

Ive been following the discussion for some time, there are some really good design ideas in here.

But, Im concerned about the uses of the scope/optics in an actual game....

Alot of the sights and scopes ive seen on these prototypes/examples look to be fairly pricey. And i would think one hit would either crack the lense, or render the lense useless for the rest of the day. Requiring hours of meticulous cleaning to clean the lense and the inner workings of the sight.

All the effort put into mounting the optics on the gun and make it workable while wearing a mask just doesnt seem worth it to me.

Also the reality of paintball is that no gun can shoot consistantly/accuratly enough to justify a telescopic sight with crosshairs. So im assuming most ppl would use the optics for surveying the CA or target identification from afar.

In that by the time your target gets into close enough range, so that the shots would hit where your sight is indicating, you wouldnt want to use the sight as if would limit how much you could see around you. Succuming to tunnel vision in other words.

Ive played pb for aboot 12 yrs now, (8 of which has been in speedball), but the my first 4 years were playing pump games in the woods, ghillie suits and all. But we never saw the need for a scope or anything.

The stock designs on this post look really good, and especially the mounting options you guys have designed for the qloaders. Some of which im going to try out for my PTp RT.

But Im interested to hear how/when you intend to put the optics to during a game.

LONEWOLFOO1

01-30-2006, 05:03 PM

i use a red dot sight with no magnafacation i just use as a reference target for my longball shots. real scopes have nopurpose just for looking ahead thin would just carry binoculars which are cheaper.

dIVEANX

01-30-2006, 05:04 PM

Well (this is only my opinion) The sites are HOLO or Red Dot sites and more used for fast target aquistion and not used as a scope.

This was kind of the idea behind this type of design. In theory, if you can aquire your target faster and are able to pull the trigger sooner (not relying on accuracy by volume) then you can effectly hit your target easier, faster and with less paint.

Now this maybe be for some people and maybe not work for others. Its all a personal preference.

My TacOne leaves on its jouney to be transformed by UMS tomorrow. I will keep you guys up to date with pictures as I get them from Britt.

We both have looked at the dsign ideas in this thread and incorped our own and think we are coming up with a very user friendly design.

ThePixelGuru

01-30-2006, 06:07 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph4.jpg
That's hot, and seems to be very doable. Have you considered the option of an ASA in place of the stock for those that want to keep air on-gun while mantaining the same profile? That would be tight. Anyone know how long that SpecOps stock is for reference?

famousgamer

01-30-2006, 06:20 PM

Yeah, no scopes for aiming anyways. Im pretty sure most people just include them to look for bad guys anyways. Red Dots make some pretty quick target aquisition however. Even a red dot is not bang on all the time, due to paintballs being what they are, but its a pretty great starting point for marking someone.

famousgamer

01-30-2006, 07:52 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/sleek.jpg

Maybe a little more erganomic than the one I did earlier.

I am kinda leaning towards going remote, as this marker above would provide perfect balance, and you wouldnt really feel any of that weight from the paint in the Q Loader. With the tank on, the Q Loader should be under the barrel. This would balance out the marker, and would really be an entirley different design. That design would be cool as well, but I am going to try to perfect the remote design first I think.

Coralis

01-30-2006, 08:05 PM

One good reason for a red dot to is that these are probably going to be scenario game markers , which will include night play. Red dots at night can make a huge difference. The last picture is pretty sweet but then you loose a place to mount a tac light should you want to because the part under the barrel is no longer parallel to the barrel.

dIVEANX

01-30-2006, 09:49 PM

What do you think of this one?

http://www.xtremefanatics.com/myimages/etacsm.jpg

Pale Rider

01-30-2006, 10:54 PM

Gentelmen,
I am new here but not to PB. I have enjoyed reading the thread, Reps to dIVEANX for bringing me here from the UMS site.

I purchase my Tac one for the purpose of turning it in to the Q-bow. I too agree the long bow is to skimpy on paint. You have given me cause to look hard at the Q-bow stock.

I live near the special opps show room and factory, I am lucky enough to be a beta tester for them. The Dog leg stock on an A-5 is flat out the best stock I have ever used. I hope they make one for the Q-bow. Form my own personal expeince I can say that every thing I have tested is top shelf. It's my job to beat the hell out of their stuff and I do Now I don't get to test every thing. I have A-5's 98's and now tac one. I do agree that their stuff is pricy, but how many companies have we seen come and go because they could'nt make it in PB???? Didn't have the $$$ to make it.

again thanks for the read

PR

famousgamer

01-31-2006, 03:16 AM

I go back and forth on how I personally feel about Spec Ops.

I am pretty sure that they could deliver a peice of bent aluminum with a little hosing and hardware on it (the dogleg stock) for less than 100 dollars. In my limited experience with millwork I could turn out at least 50 of those in an eight hour shift I would wager. People are getting gouged.

One thing I am an expert in is plastic injection molding, as it relates to wargame miniature production (my job). Those plastic stocks that Spec Ops sells for 100 a pop cost about 2 dollars in materials, maybe 5 more in labor and maximum 10 dollars for manufacturing.

Think about it. You can buy a brand new automag with a barrel included for the price of buying a Spec Ops kit to turn an ADG marker into a Longbow ( http://www.specialopspaintball.com/shop/product_detail.asp?SKU=200+0003&SEARCH=LONGBOW ). That seems very wrong. Think about the materials and time and engineering it takes to create an AGD marker, and then the simple hoses and milling that make up the Longbow shroud and parts.

Actually, I find Spec Ops no more noble than any other Mil Sim type paintball retailer. They have a forum. They have some flash animations. Its all gimmicks. You know what gimmick I like? Quality merged with low prices. Its no wonder why I like AGD so much. When AGD can sell an entire paintball marker for the same price that Spec Ops sells a Stock and a bit of hardware it is clear who is doing a greater service to the world of paintball.

and yes, Ill make that front section of that marker shroud flat again, with the barrel. Once a picatinny is there, flasklights and the such will become of use again.

The marker looks good dIVEANX. It is expensive, but if you can make it without breakin the bank you are gonna rip out there. Yer on my team!

famousgamer

01-31-2006, 03:31 AM

Oh yeah... check this out for best of both worlds type action...

Okay, airsoft is cheaper than paintball, and delivers the same stuff, if not more variety of things. How about making the marker shroud a transfer point from paintball to the cheaper airsoft parts? Check it out...

The AGD shroud becomes a core of sorts. Then one can attach airsoft parts onto that core however they like. This will make the marker adaptable, and inexpensive. Full on rails, sight, thingies, rear view mirrors, etc. Way to stick it to the man!

So, a few things...

Need to find the best sort of airsoft gear, for the lowest prices to know what kinda stuff is gonna fit onto the core. I looked around, and alot of airsoft is expensive when it is metal, but cheap when it is plastic. I dont mind plastic, as so many paintball stocks are already plastic, but I wanna find the ones that are half the price as spec ops.

We then need to find out how they are attached. I am sure its pretty basic, but some kind of knowledge of how certan parts are attached would be helpful.

Some things we can research are...

EDIT: You know, that airsoft stuff is pretty damn pricey still! I am not sure if it is much less expensive! Maybe I am looking in the wrong spots.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/core.jpg

This gives the automag Special Ops customizability times ten, and Airsoft prices.

So, any links, research or experience yawl can handle would really help. Thanks guys.

famousgamer

01-31-2006, 03:42 AM

Even worse, some manufacturers glue a Tippmann A-5 end cap onto a stock that was hacked off a cheap airsoft gun. We hate to criticize product, but this is a truly horrible design

from http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/tippmann_mods_buttstocks.asp

Hehe. Glue? Spec Ops is telling me not to do it.

I better do it.

paintball_fiend

01-31-2006, 04:23 AM

yah scopes are just for looks but i have used red dots to good effect before
i have an emag so makeing wond of these for it would be cool kinda mix a couple together
http://www.xtremefanatics.com/myimages/etacsm.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/ETac3.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/borph2.jpg

it could be as simple as getting the folding stock, warp feed body, and mounting adapter that would probably be the cheapest but it would be cool to see what you guys could come up with for the emag

having the qloader under the grip is an awsome idea that way you have to have such a long gun you could put a short barrel if you wanted and call it your emag p90

famousgamer

01-31-2006, 04:26 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/prices.jpg

Okay, I know the airsoft is "cheap" plastic, but is it really that less durable than the Spec Ops plastic? That tiny little handguard from Spec Ops costs as much as that whole WORKING airsoft gun! I know that all those Spec Ops parts are plastic, but does the price really justify their being metal?

I own a Dremel. I could turn that front section of the airsoft into a handguard, with build in pic rails for free. I guess then you get a stock for free too. Why not just stick an agd marker inside that airsoft frame? Instant rails, stock, etc, for 30 BUCKS?!

I know, its crazy. As crazy as that moon landing footage. It just might work tho. I am not even that into milsim. I just want a tactical marker without spending all my hard earned money. If it turns out that airsoft plastic is as good as Spec Ops plastic, it might just be crazy enough to work.

For 30 bucks, Ill give it a shot. Id prolly loose the clip tho and make some room for a foregrip.

famousgamer

01-31-2006, 04:28 AM

having the qloader under the grip is an awsome idea that way you have to have such a long gun you could put a short barrel if you wanted and call it your emag p90

Id love to feel the weight of the paint taken right off the marker by having the pod centered like that. Soooo nice I bet.

paintball_fiend

01-31-2006, 04:30 AM

the airsoft thing is what most of the milsim salers do then they charge 600+ for their stuff

dIVEANX

01-31-2006, 07:38 AM

Hey Famous. I already have the marker (thanks to A Tach One on this site) Im not sure if you are familar with Britt from the Underground Mod Shop.

He has done mostly A5 and 98 mods until now. I approached him after I tried to get just the stock, shroud and mag wells for my TacOne from Spec Ops and they will not sell it that way.

I am even on one their only 4 sponsored teams and they wouldnt do it. The only way I was offered a chance to get them was if I shared my scenario cocker ideas with them and Frankly that isnt going to happen now.

But then I was turned onto this thread and you guys have alot of valid points that have been over looked in the making of the Longbow.

I talked with Rory just after they built the Longbow and understood the reasoning behind it and while holding it with no mask it on it was awesome but once you put that mask on its a whole different story.

Its hard for me to say anything bad about Spec Ops because they have done alot for our team Espeically Robert (Cops911) Robert has been a primary sponsor for our team for a long time and we will stand behind him no matter what.

I have my personal opinions but I chose to keep them to myself because I dont want anything I say to effect my team.

But the plastic issue I have to comment on. My team captain has an Ops Gear G36 kit he has had since it came out (pre Spec Ops sponsorship) and this weekend he got shot in the stock and it broke. Now can you image if a paintball can break that plastic like that what it would have done if it had hit is body OMG.

Anyway after seeing that I dont think I would ever own a plastic anything on a marker. I mean it did enough damage that it would be very easy to break the rest of the stock off diving for cover and then the possiblity of jabbing it into yourself is very high.

I think I will stick to paying alittle more for stamped or machined aluminum for I feel that for safety and wear sake it is the best option. Sure you give up some weight but in the long run it will be alot better, just eat your Wheaties LOL

paintball_fiend

01-31-2006, 02:10 PM

here are some examples of the airsoft thing....they over charge to the extreme
http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/scenario/mrm-008.jpg
http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/scenario/mrm-009.jpg
http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/scenario/mrm-010.jpg
http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/scenario/mrm-011.jpg

famousgamer

01-31-2006, 09:26 PM

Lets just say I have gotten a hold of some airsoft gun bodies, without the internals. The are CHEAP, and super high quality.

Im not talking the low end plastic things either. I am talking fiberglass bodies, aluminum and super tough ABS high end plastic.

Since I dont need to pay for any airsoft internals, it makes the guns so cheap. Even last night alone I got three emails from people wanting to sell me their damaged and broken airsoft guns, with no exterior damage done to them at all. They look brand new.

They are so cheap I cant even begin to discribe how much we are being ripped off in the paintball community. Gouging is this game sucks, but I may have found a solution.

Granted, I will have to mod the airsoft bodies to fit the paintball marker, and that may not be easy. The good news is my time is free. Buying all those upgrades from Spec Ops is the equivilent of a weeks wages for most people. I bet modding a marker and airsoft frame would not take me longer than two evenings tops.

I am still interested in the original idea, but this opportunity provides kinda a cheap and super effective bandage until we can find a millable design. Honestly tho, I dont know how we are gonna get a front grip, main body, retractable stock and tonnes of picatinny rails for the same price as an airsoft body.

famousgamer

01-31-2006, 10:22 PM

You know, seriously tho, if those airsoft type automag markers shown above were a even a hundred dollars cheaper, they would slay over a Longbow. Qbow's value all the sudden becomes debatable at 900 dollars a pop.

paintball_fiend

02-01-2006, 05:27 AM

black cell qloader = bizon
;)

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/smg/img/bizon.jpg

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 06:40 AM

Its got a helical drive hopper and everything!

Spec.Ops1

02-01-2006, 01:36 PM

The problem with SpecOps parts and accessories is they are outrageously priced.

You can get similar and sometimes identical hardware from the airsoft community for MUCH less. That is after all where a significant portion of OpsGear and SpecOps accessories are taken from.

Check out www.redwolfairsoft.com for an amazing array of scope mounts and such. Many of which could have applications with the mods discussed in this thread.

We do NOT use chopped up airsoft product. Opsgear used that in the past and it was a great way for them to bring to market a bunch of product really quickly however the quality was lacking and now they have gotten into making their own products specific for paintball.

paintball_fiend

02-01-2006, 01:59 PM

Spec.Ops1

02-01-2006, 02:06 PM

I personally hate Spec Ops system of pricing things. The exact types of labor and materials go into airsoft parts, as was mentioned, but somehow when it gets fixed to a paintball gun it becomes ten times more expensive?! It upsets me, and it enforces a sort of elitist quality to the Spec Ops stuff, which I find useless and negative. This coupled with the fact that Spec Ops stuff doesnt always perform due to poor design.

ha.... whoa. we dont use airsoft chops and call it our own... period. Wish I could share with you our production cost on things and you would then be like "oh...wow... nevermind". Perfect example is our F.O.G foregrip where the base is machined from solid billet aluminum. The longbow was sort of like... a concept car that we decided was to cool NOT to bring to market. And now we have spin-offs from it that are looking great. (yours are cool for sure)

Our stuff will become more cost effective as it becomes more popular. But right now what you are asking is for ferrari to change their car and market position and start making some honda priced stuff. We will def. bring to market lower cost stuff in the future in a planned and calculated method, but too much of that then we would'nt be "Special Ops". We'd just be "everybody else".

FinchMan

02-01-2006, 02:14 PM

ha.... whoa. we dont use airsoft chops and call it our own... period. Wish I could share with you our production cost on things and you would then be like "oh...wow... nevermind". Perfect example is our F.O.G foregrip where the base is machined from solid billet aluminum. The longbow was sort of like... a concept car that we decided was to cool NOT to bring to market. And now we have spin-offs from it that are looking great. (yours are cool for sure)

Our stuff will become more cost effective as it becomes more popular. But right now what you are asking is for ferrari to change their car and market position and start making some honda priced stuff. We will def. bring to market lower cost stuff in the future in a planned and calculated method, but too much of that then we would'nt be "Special Ops". We'd just be "everybody else".

i dont think we ever said you used modified airsoft parts. as in taking airsoft parts and making them fit a paintball gun.

we are saying that you are using (making) parts that are very similar to airsoft parts, and if the same type and quality part was sold in airsoft it would cost much less.

I can see that your parts may be expensive due to low supply, marketing strategies, or whatever the reasons, But that doesn't mean we can't complain about the price difference between spec-ops products and similar airsoft products.

paintball_fiend

02-01-2006, 02:16 PM

ha.... whoa. we dont use airsoft chops and call it our own... period. Wish I could share with you our production cost on things and you would then be like "oh...wow... nevermind". Perfect example is our F.O.G foregrip where the base is machined from solid billet aluminum. The longbow was sort of like... a concept car that we decided was to cool NOT to bring to market. And now we have spin-offs from it that are looking great. (yours are cool for sure)

Our stuff will become more cost effective as it becomes more popular. But right now what you are asking is for ferrari to change their car and market position and start making some honda priced stuff. We will def. bring to market lower cost stuff in the future in a planned and calculated method, but too much of that then we would'nt be "Special Ops". We'd just be "everybody else".

again we arent saying you just throw airsoft on your guns ....saying putting airsoft looking and similarly maid stuff on you guns.....completely different you manufactured it from scratch and diserve the credit and no one is trying to take that away from you. we just like having things for a cheaper price.
and i understand your markety point of view and dont expect it to change. we are just trying to make our own for as cheap as possible.....married with bills

and i am a new member of specops brigade and the forums and i love the stuff you guys do maybe you could look at forums like this as constructive critizism and get new ideas on stock location and design

again thing for making the black cell in the first place so we could start up threads like this and put in our 2 cents worth of desing ideas

Severe

02-01-2006, 03:38 PM

We do NOT use chopped up airsoft product. Opsgear used that in the past and it was a great way for them to bring to market a bunch of product really quickly however the quality was lacking and now they have gotten into making their own products specific for paintball.

As the others have already said, I wasn't implying that you used chopped airsoft guns for your kits. I specifically referring to accessories; scopes, rails, RIS accessories, etc. Also, many of the large air-soft resellers have accessories you simply don't carry.

Budget is everything to many players and I'm a firm believer in going where I can save some money. I give much kudos to SpecOps and OpsGear for bringing a lot of the mil-sim, specifically A5 stuff, in to the scenario mainstream.

However, as a consumer we have a responsibility to our wallet to get the best bang for the buck. Until such a time as your prices do drop, I'll have to encourage scenario players to get their accessories from the most cost effective places.

Barjack420

02-01-2006, 04:35 PM

I dont think "cost effective" "Budget" or anything similar really pertain to anything paintball.
The sport is expensive to begin with.

When you want to customize your gear it becomes even more abusive to your finances.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im wondering why nobody has proposed any designs involving a warp feed?

What about a design where you incorporate the stock and part of the hopper? If you custom build a chamber that held the paintballs and that also functioned as a stock, then use a warp feed to move the balls from the chamber/stock to the breach. ??

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 06:29 PM

I do beleive that paintball should not break the bank.

Hobbies are expensive, yes. Plastic injection molding are not.

Paintballs are expensive. Macro hoses, fittings and those varieties of parts are not.

If you are rich, god is smiling upon you. For the rest of us there is the budget.

AGD seems to price their markers as cheap as they will go within reason, and a company like Spec Ops seems to charge as much as they possibly can.

Inject plastic into a mold. Install macro hosing and hardware. Put it in a box. Charge 100 dollars. That for me does no compute. I know the plastic manufacturing industry. The exact same process that goes into making a body for a 30 dollar airsoft gun is what is used to make a 100 dollar Spec Ops stock, and that upsets me. How bout you?

That is not even counting this one: Mill sheet of aluminum, put in vice and bend, install logo and harware... charge 100 dollars. Ummm, something is very wrong.

Case and point, look at airsoft. Red dot scopes, RIS systems, Body frames all much less than Spec Ops would provide them for. If airsoft companies sold their parts peice by peice (not add-ons, but the original body peices or kits) people would search no further. The quality of design, merged with the already readily avalible manufacturing of China makes the parts so inexpensive, and still the posses a quality we would expect anywhere else, if not better.

What am I paying for? A Spec Ops logo? I personally dislike pimping anyones brand name or symbol unless I am sponsored. I also dislike paying extra for a brand name.

Am I paying for domestic manufacturing? Is Spec Ops made in the USA? If there was a Spec Ops China division would their parts be a quarter of the price and the same quality? These are the kinds of questions I ask when I see a 100 dollar price tag on a plastic stock.

I also never implied Spec Ops uses airsoft parts. In fact, I more so implied that they should. This would be alot cheaper for the consumer, and the stuff would look excellent. There would also be no gawdy brand name, and there would be no better way to capture the milsim vibe.'

For example: Spec Ops goes an visits Tokyo Mauri, and brokers a deal to get their airsoft bodies in a variety of models, and then takes them back in the hundreds to America. They then fill these bodies with some loud and in-efficient yet sturdy Tippmans, or a great AGD marker. Thery then sell the whole thing, at a lower rate then their compeditors, as they already had the plant and people to build the markers at a huge volume. What does the consumer get? A killer marker, TOTALLY milsim and made with the same quality of other Spec Ops parts. They get rails, stocks, grips, handles, all for huge savings, and in one purchase. WHY oh WHY cant there be a big company that does this?

And wait a tick... if there are so many Spec Ops representitives on this thread, can you please explain the logic behind the Longbow stock being so high? That poor design is really the primer for this whole discussion. Did you not realize the whole mask thing? You know, you can get that whole "snap up" to position thing with the stock a few inches lower. Did you realize that while you were trying to capture the whole "realistic gun" vibe you actually put the barrel beneath the top line of the stock, making that configuration unlike ANY gun out there?

It is kinda weird that you guys are freakin about the airsoft thing, and totally forgetting about the Longbow configuration. Maybe I hit a nerve? Maybe I hit upon something that is in fact the very marrow of the Spec Ops buisiness machine?

Anyways, paintball shouldnt cost that much. I envy airsoft players. Would be nice to pay those prices. They prolly look at us going "what makes your markers so expensive?". All we can say in reply is "Who knows?"

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 06:40 PM

Im wondering why nobody has proposed any designs involving a warp feed?

What about a design where you incorporate the stock and part of the hopper? If you custom build a chamber that held the paintballs and that also functioned as a stock, then use a warp feed to move the balls from the chamber/stock to the breach. ??

Dude, a paintball hopper/warp fed stock is BRILLIANT! Can you imagine? Holy crap, that would be so nice. Dude, you are a genius. Go Canada.

So, in that case, airfoft parts are not an option, or maybe a hollow airsoft stock is? Yeah, get like an M16 stock or somethin, and use that as a starting point. The warp is also totally AGD, and if you saw the designs started with a warp involved circa. page 1. It became a Q Loader, as they are quiet, tight and nice. The warp is gawdy, uses batteries and makes noise.

If the warp drive was somehow shrouded to take care of the noise, then I would be interested. The rattle of balls in the stock could be eliminated by foam lining the inside of the stock, like some hoppers/players do.

How would the hose get to the breech? Hmmm, time to get crackin at that drawing board.

I would like to say a prayer now. Please God, let AGD make a really nice milsim woodsball marker with the stock as a hopper, fed by a warp drive motor. It would be so rad, and really AGD. It would then slay all other woodsball markers that requires hundreds of dollards of after-market upgrades.

dIVEANX

02-01-2006, 06:51 PM

I have to defend Spec Ops on that. I own a few of there things and I dont agree with that statement.

The dogleg stock is alot more then bending a piece of aluminum and running hose on it. Have you ever held one?

Alot more goes into making their stuff then youa re giving credit for. If you want to compare it to AGD, when AGD first came out, they were not the cheapest on the block by no means but as time progressed and in this case no new products in years its pretty easy for things to be cheap.

Spec Ops is a good company that is in business to make money just like any other company out there. They do alot for the sport as well as holding a scenario type tourney across the US with very nice prize packages.

Those things cost money and you cant always eat it yourself or you will be out of business pretty fast.

I love their Fusion battle wear and I love my Broadsword vest. They get the job done very nicely and last alot longer then any other paintball pants and pod pack I have ever used so all in all I think you are looking at the Spec Ops deal in a bias way.

Just my opinion.

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 07:09 PM

I agree. Alot of Spec Ops stuff rocks. When I mean it is too pricey, I mean it is a little too pricey. Not hugley overpriced. Not un-attainably overpriced. Just expensive.

I am seriously worried that another company will just come along and make that same stuff for cheaper. That is a reality, especialy with foreign manufacturing costs so low.

You do not even want to know how cheap plastic injection molding is tho, after you pay for the molds to be made. It is seriously cheaper than dirt.

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 07:11 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/paintstock.jpg

Pretty rough start, but it kinda gives an idea of what to expect. The warp sticks out. Yuck. It is hard to put it anywhere, and still get the gravity fed paintballs stored in a reasonable number. Ill keep trying, and any contributions would help as well. Thanks guys.

dIVEANX

02-01-2006, 07:13 PM

Yeah my ex did that for a while but like I posted earlier after the game this weekend and seeing the big hole in that plastic stock Ill pass on the plastic stuff.

Im sure it will be out there and the people that dont want to pay premium prices for premium stuff can always get the plastic stuff LOL

Just like the company I work for. We make a trigger system for the A5. It is pricey but it is bad to the bone and alot better then the factory trigger system.

It comes with a totally machined aluminum housing with a roller bearing trigger and a magnetic return. We know it isnt for everyone but there will be people that want it for its performance values.

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 07:28 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/paintstock2.jpg

A kinda ammo bow config. Could make a badass kinda circular loader thing.

I agree Diveanx. When I hear the words aluminum I start to drool. Certain construction methods are just so much better than others. I do also beleive in different entry points for every kind of consumer.

I think that plastic can mean quality,. I also think that quality can be sold for cheap... and I am fairly dedicated to finding out how to get these things together. If I do find any ammount of success then i will be for the benifit of the budgeted paintball consumer, and that would please me most. I want to represent the common person, not the wealthy. There are plenty clawing away at the wealthy market already.

Severe

02-01-2006, 07:32 PM

Famousgamer, aren't you forgetting the mask clearance in those recent drawings?

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 07:36 PM

I agree Severe, mask clearance is getting shafted in way of a cool stock. We need the WHOLE PACKAGE! Hmmm. How can we get the best of both worlds?

I guess last resort could be a sight rail, or sight risers. Id rather not go there tho unless we have to. There is also offsetting the sight, as we all know, but that also is kinda last resort. I would however rather offset the sight as opposed to a riser tho.

FinchMan

02-01-2006, 07:38 PM

that last on looks a lot like the ATS AT-series...

http://www.deadlywind.com/tech/marker_animations/ats-at_animation.gif

if only you could get the rights to that type of feed system, and maybe adapt it to the mag using something like the tippman a5 uses.

that would be the best!!!!

Severe

02-01-2006, 07:51 PM

I can't find the link now, but about year ago, I saw concept art of an integrated foregrip that AGD was working on that incorporate many of the functions of the Warp. It was set up in a saddle formation, meaning paintballs were on the left and right and the feed track was in the center. I think the design was intended for a below breech feeding system.

If anyone can find the artwork it was very much in-line with what we're talking about here.

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 07:52 PM

Yeah, that motor looks small and tight. The warp is kinda huge.

There is a way to get the warp tighter tho. If one removes the battery pack from the warp shell, it gets tighter...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/paintstock3.jpg

It doesnt even look that bad. Still pretty clunky compared to that feed system above tho.

FinchMan

02-01-2006, 07:58 PM

with the paint storage at the rear, the air tank could probably be mounted under the barrel to ballance it.

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 08:13 PM

True, thee would be balance then. Hmm. I almost like how with the centered Q Loader design the paint was weighted evenly. I am not sure if this paintstock is gonna be balanced without counter balance. I did want to keep the tank off the marker tho.

Oh, here is a cosmetic version of my fave paint stock so far...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/paintstock4.jpg

Pale Rider

02-01-2006, 08:19 PM

I do beleive that paintball should not break the bank.
Hobbies are expensive, yes. Plastic injection molding are not.
Paintballs are expensive. Macro hoses, fittings and those varieties of parts are not.
AGD seems to price their markers as cheap as they will go within reason, and a company like Spec Ops seems to charge as much as they possibly can.

Inject plastic into a mold. Install macro hosing and hardware. Put it in a box. Charge 100 dollars. That for me does no compute. I know the plastic manufacturing industry. The exact same process that goes into making a body for a 30 dollar airsoft gun is what is used to make a 100 dollar Spec Ops stock, and that upsets me. How bout you?

I agree. Alot of Spec Ops stuff rocks. When I mean it is too pricey, I mean it is a little too pricey. Not hugley overpriced. Not un-attainably overpriced. Just expensive. I am seriously worried that another company will just come along and make that same stuff for cheaper. That is a reality, especialy with foreign manufacturing costs so low.

You do not even want to know how cheap plastic injection molding is tho, after you pay for the molds to be made. It is seriously cheaper than dirt.

Gamer
your photschops are great and you have some really cool ideas. Thank you for posting them.

you hit the nail on the head production is cheap R&D is not.

Quality never goes out of style. If you buy cheap stuff that is what you have cheap stuff.
I have purchased stuff from a diffrent mil-sim company and they used airsoft chops. I paid every bit as much and was very disapointed.

Hobbies cost money no matter what you do. Golf is expensive but no more or less that paintball. Hunting is too. When I make a PB purchase I look for durablity and function,

There are markers that are a less expensive, but I have Tippmans and AGD markers because they are rugged and they work day in and day out.

Consider the option of a cheaper stock you have to replace every year...is it really cheaper in the long run???

Spec ops is the Nordstoms/Cabelas/Browning of paintball gear. THey don't sell junk :)

mjolnir117

02-01-2006, 08:22 PM

I dont like this idea of a Giant hopper, too many bad things will happen, paintbreaks, hard to reload (But I guess you would never have to) I really like the qloader version better

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 08:36 PM

Severe

02-01-2006, 08:44 PM

No. 2 is by far the easiest for the average player to configure. It is all straight product, just assembled for functionality, minus the stock.

For me, I would love to see the integrated Q-loader mounting option per no.7 and no.9. But I would ditch the stock option as I will be mounting my bottle directly to the marker via a dropforward.

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 09:01 PM

Actually, gun parts are often cheaper than airsoft parts.

EDIT: Actually, cheaper than Spec Ops parts, and sometimes airsoft. AK47 parts in particular. Look not at the top few items, but scroll down to the stocks and foregrip combos. For 80 bucks you get a stock, grip and shroud parts. I bet those ownt break anytime soon, and you get to say you are using authentic AK47 parts to boot.

http://www.k-var.com/shop/?30=20+and+50&6=5

Check some of these out.

famousgamer

02-01-2006, 09:23 PM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/hybrid.jpg

my fave so far. balance, tonnes of clearance. Two ways to grip at the front (rifle, or vert)

borph

02-01-2006, 09:55 PM

Awesome! Until now, the Carbine design #6 was my favorite from above. How will this adapt to a .45 grip frame?

my fave so far. balance, tonnes of clearance. Two ways to grip at the front (rifle, or vert)

mjolnir117

02-01-2006, 11:36 PM

I too like that modle, I really do think the qloader would be better than the case of paint!

FinchMan

02-02-2006, 05:23 AM

I agree that the Q Loader would be easier is many many ways.

Here is a comparison design sheet to reference from. We can use these numbered examples to start narrowing down ideas.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/together.jpg

i like #8 the best.

#12 can be made with current parts. I calculated all out on page 5 or 6, and it was pretty cheap compared to the longbow.

famousgamer

02-02-2006, 05:32 AM

Well, it aint the perdiest, but I do beleive this is the most user friendly and funcional design yet. The Q stock. (EDIT: for people that want to use air thru, not bottle on)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/qstock.jpg

Complete with Q mount, air-thru and of course... a stock. All in one. I put a rubber buttplate on the stock. These can be found for very cheap, and prolly feel very nice.

The paint should be perfectly balanced in the middle. This design could also be skeletonized if made from a heavier metal. In my mind I envision this stock in milled aluminum.

The asa is the stock automag one. Waste not want not.

So, front part aside, I think this is a real starting point. If one were ot use the front grip, they would have to use a grip extender peice, or if they were using an RT they might clear the Q holder part of the Q stock.

If there is no drilling into the frame, the stock becomes way easier to install, and transfer from marker to marker. An all round easier way to go, and good way to include all AGD makes and models.

This stock should work with any automag, and most other markers out there with holes on the bottom of the grip for a bottomline or drop forward. Q Loader should make these. They might sell a few.

paintball_fiend

02-02-2006, 05:45 AM

i agree stick with the qloader
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/hybrid.jpg
is the first of the angled designs that i like...nice
still like #3 the best it only has one part to design the rest is already out there

make it out of alluminum

cant wait for the tac one warp feed bodys

famousgamer

02-02-2006, 06:05 AM

Is the TAC ONE warp feed gonna happen for really?

famousgamer

02-02-2006, 06:33 AM

Here is a lil breakdown of the Q stocked mag vs. the Black Cell:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/ultraforge/specs.jpg

I included some things that are important to me while playing, like profile and mask clearance. The "exposure while firing from cover" measurement is measured to the marker, not the player. Two players being equal size will simply add to this amount. I also did not include a foregrip on the Q stocked mag, but one could use anything there.

Did you know that if you were to take the exposure from the Cell and put it up instead of down it may as well have a hopper on the top? Seems kinda silly to go through all that effort to lower the profile, and then you got to get that Q Loader over cover to brace it and fire, effectivle removing all that clearance. If the cover is in front of the user, and the marker is not braced for stability, then this is not an issue.

What I did not mention in the diagram was price. The Q stock would cost minimal ammounts to mill from aluminum. It is 2D milling (the cheapest of computerized routing) from a sheet of aluminum and a few holes drilled into it. Go ahead and screw on the stock asa, and grab an extra long macro line to reach the marker. Done. I could not see this costing over 100 bucks. I could be totally wrong here, but my buddies at their sign shop got a computerized router, and I could ask them and report back.

I also did not mention the balance point. The Q stock marker is perfectly balanced in the middle. The Black Cell is front heavy.

You will need to round the stock out as much as you want by hand tho, if the router 2D mills it. I personally would dremel mine quite rounded, like an M16 stock. Worth the effort, and saves a tonne of cash.

famousgamer

02-02-2006, 06:43 AM

oh yeah... also forgot to make this point...

The one on the top is an AGD Automag. The one on the bottom is an Ion. Enough said.

paintball_fiend

02-02-2006, 06:53 AM

you should shorten the total exposed on the black cell
the player only has to get the barrel above cover not the qloader also

mask clearence and length are a big issue for me

after all with the design we are working on the barrel could be 8 in freak with flash tip and confortible to aim over the top

can someone point me in the direction of a good place to host pics for free
or famous can i send you some pics so you could host them they are of a tac emag

FinchMan

02-02-2006, 07:00 AM

famousgamer

02-02-2006, 07:03 AM

TAC Emag. Drool.

Go ahead and get a photobucket account. photobucket.com. When you upload a pic just grab the IMG tag from its listing, and paste it into these boards. Any questions just mail me.

I have shown the exposed height from the Q loader and not the barrel because one would costantly be firing from behind hard cover, or right up to it. A Black Cell owner would have to pull back constantly to not over expose themselves, while the AGD user could just peek up from wherever. When resting the marker on any hard cover, or clearing it one becomes exposed in this way. I know it is not all the time, but it is still a reality with the Black Cell to me. I can stick the AGD barrel out a small crack or opening. That reality is entirley lost with the Cell as well. I thought it was a sneaky sniper rifle?! Like I said, the exposure is not always an issue, but is worth mentioning.

Also, one could snap shoot with the Q stock position like that. It is really takes up the same dimentions as most tanks out there, if not a little higher. That means the feel and motions would be tight, similar to speedball. Pivots and angles. The Black Cell is like a rocket launcher compared to it. Sparse, front heavy, gawdy and loose. Thats not even counting the price.