IONized 'Mag Pneu-frame?

[Scott Hudnall]

Okay....have you seen the internal workings of the ION frame? It's all one nice little package, taking the low pressure, through the solenoid, routing it to the internals in the body, all put together. Simplified explanation....bear with me here.....

Why couldn't this be used to operate the MPA-3 clippard part to trip the sear on a 'mag?

The ION Blackheart board, complete set up, is $99.

Simply run a low pressure off the 'mag's vertical adapter (like the Electrician's set up) to operate the ION board/solenoid, the output going to the MPA-3 to trip the sear.

hmmmmm......anyone got any input?

http://i16.ebayimg.com/03/i/05/a6/bf/f2_1.JPG

Also, the ION manual on the Smart Parts site has a little better exploded view of the ION's internals. You could get a little better look there.

Why wouldn't this work?

[noahyay]

it would work, have fun fitting it in a frame

[Scott Hudnall]

I'm surprised I haven't seen more feedback or ideas on this. Seems so simple and straightforward.

The 9V adapter gives you an excellent idea of how big (or small) this board/unit is. I don't forsee having any problems putting it in a frame. I'll be trying it on a Logic V2 frame initially.

[neppo1345]

It would work perfectly if you could fit it in the frame...

I personally think it's a great idea...however...

It's kinda like putting the engine from a chevy into a ford...

[temps]

Sounds like it would work, and should be cheaper then the current mod.

What is the output pressure of the ion solenoid/what pressure can it handel, it would have to be enought to fire the mag with the mpa-3...
"I'm running an RT on/of in my set-up and it needs 40 psi to run right with the 3/8" bore MPA-3 . so that's about 4.4lbs." - the electrician
But then useing I think the same mpa-3 Trains are bad needs 40 psi to trip a ult on/off..

So to be safe we need the output of the solenoid to be 100+/- psi.. Reading the ion manual it says if ion is leaking turn down operating presuure to below 200 psi because the solenoid arature is overpressurized... so I'm assuming that the solenoid can handel 100 psi properly.. so thats good.

Could you messure the length, width, and height of the ion internals??

Also the mag trigger would need to be modifed with something due to the location of the microswith on the ion board.. that should be easy though..

Also anyone know if it is possible to find the mpa-3 in a local store maybe?? home depot or a hobby shop maybe?? if so I could pick up the pieces pretty quickly and get to work :D

[Skoad]

worth a shot. If you don't need to modify the ION part at all it should be an easy resell for minimal $ loss.

I was thinking about doing a pneumag for my next project. I would try this but I haven't even dealt with a solenoid driven mag yet so sort of unknowledgible in this.....But you would need this ION setup, a microrock, and the MPA-3 (as well as fittings hoses)??? Still sounds like ~$200.

[Scott Hudnall]

The SP Blackheart ION board goes for $99 with free shipping on Ebay. Cocker front regs are cheap on ebay, generally in the $15 to $20 range. MPA-3 is a $9 part (if that).

The ION frame doesn't look like some oversized monster frame. Again, looking at the 9v adapter lets you know how compact this is.

I agree that the greatest challenge would be configuring the trigger to trip the microswitch on the ION board.

The cool thing is that the air lines are all done, the wiring is all done, no guessing as to what goes where, etc etc etc. I'm sure there are several AOers who will be trying this in the near future. I plan to....

As noted in the first post, I am not planning on putting the reg in the grip, but rather on the front of the gun like the "electricians" set up....drilling/tapping the front of the vert adapter.

Even better.....an SP and AGD "supermag"?

[neppo1345]

You could simply desolder the swith and solder it to another microswitch...and by simply I mean very carefully and delicately...

I don't think theres another reg inside of the ion...and i know they run about 220 psi...

[Skoad]

so ion has no lpr?

[paintball sycho]

the ion only has the vertical reg. the blackheart is hit with 200 psi.

[Skoad]

ok, so is there a reason why we can't buy someone's stock ion boart/getup and try it with that for uber cheap? - just for testing purposes i understand blackheart has "modes" and whatnot.

[temps]

No reason we cant use the stock ion board.

Looking at the post about the shmag (shocker mag) he plans on makeing the shocker frame into a mech mag frame (the screws line up all you need to do is drill out room for the sear).. Anyone have pictures of a 03 shocker frame and internals, would it be possible to use a shocker frame and put the ion internals in it.. or use shocker internals instead of ion internals? I have no idea if a shocker solenoid is the same as an ion or not so i dont know if its possible to run the mpa-3 valve off a shocker solenoid or if there would be room for the mpa-3 valve and mag sear..

Edit.. looking at a diagram of the 03 shocker, I dont think the solenoid is located in the frame, so now would the ion internals fit in an 03 shocker frame??

[Pyroboy597]

The SP Blackheart ION board goes for $99 with free shipping on Ebay. Cocker front regs are cheap on ebay, generally in the $15 to $20 range. MPA-3 is a $9 part (if that).

The ION frame doesn't look like some oversized monster frame. Again, looking at the 9v adapter lets you know how compact this is.

I agree that the greatest challenge would be configuring the trigger to trip the microswitch on the ION board.

The cool thing is that the air lines are all done, the wiring is all done, no guessing as to what goes where, etc etc etc. I'm sure there are several AOers who will be trying this in the near future. I plan to....

As noted in the first post, I am not planning on putting the reg in the grip, but rather on the front of the gun like the "electricians" set up....drilling/tapping the front of the vert adapter.

Even better.....an SP and AGD "supermag"?

The ion board is not right under the frame's cover either. IT is where the on/off button is, there is extra space in the actual gripframe because all that goes there is the battery. Unlike mags, ions have a "Rail" built onto the trigger frame that houses the air source tubes as well as a good portion of the board's components. Not to say that it will not fit in a mag, ive never taken my board out and tried to put it in my mag. However, it will probably not be easy, especially since you will have to mount it somehow.

[BigEvil]

Okay....have you seen the internal workings of the ION frame? It's all one nice little package, taking the low pressure, through the solenoid, routing it to the internals in the body, all put together. Simplified explanation....bear with me here.....

Why couldn't this be used to operate the MPA-3 clippard part to trip the sear on a 'mag?

The ION Blackheart board, complete set up, is $99.

Simply run a low pressure off the 'mag's vertical adapter (like the Electrician's set up) to operate the ION board/solenoid, the output going to the MPA-3 to trip the sear.

hmmmmm......anyone got any input?

http://i16.ebayimg.com/03/i/05/a6/bf/f2_1.JPG

Also, the ION manual on the Smart Parts site has a little better exploded view of the ION's internals. You could get a little better look there.

Why wouldn't this work?

You are a genius my friend. Good thinking. It wont be simple, but theoretically it should work.

[BigEvil]

I just checked out the ion manual on Smartparts website. This looks like it will work, but with out one ni my hands to judge the size its really tough to tell for sure.

One question I have about that board is, can you disable the eyes? Also, if you really wanted to go all out, you could replace that board with something like a Morlock for a little added flexability. Im not sure if you can adjust the dwell on that ION board so if anyone knows for sure please let us know. I couldnt tell you what you would need to set it at for a set up like your proposing, but I bet its shorter than the 30ms the Emags need.

[neppo1345]

Yeah...you can disable the eyes...but why not use them?

and I'm pretty sure you can adjust the dwell...not sure though, I know you can with the blackheart...

[temps]

Yes you can adjust the dwell.

[temps]

You could simply desolder the swith and solder it to another microswitch...and by simply I mean very carefully and delicately...

Is this possible?

[neppo1345]

Is this possible?

Having never seen an ION board...I'm not entirely sure, but I would -assume- that the switch is simply soldered to the board like anything else is attached, and If it is, there's no reason why you couldn't de solder it and solder wire leads in it's place...

I've done on other electronics...but never a pb gun

[Scott Hudnall]

You are a genius my friend. Good thinking. It wont be simple, but theoretically it should work.



ahhhummm....thanks my friend.

I wonder if SP sells the stock ION board/solenoid replacement part? price? No reason a stock ion board wouldn't work just as well. I don't really care about the different tournament setting stuff....just the semi-automode.

[Skoad]

I don't think they sell them just yet. I've seen them on a few online stores but without a price listed. However if you just do a little searching on pbnation you can find a stock getup for ~$50.

I believe all the boards, including the stock one, use the same solenoid.

[Scott Hudnall]

there happens to be 2 stock ion boards for sale in the buy/sell misc items threads. I'm gonna try it.

[Arstron]

or you could use a tboard for only $80 ;)

Fitting the board, 9v batter, and an MPA-3 in a mag frame would prove to be a challenge, but if you can it should work pretty good. it would be quite a bit of over kill as well, you would only need one hose as the mpa-3 uses a spring return and not air return.

http://www.scenariodreams.com/oscommerce/product_info.php?cPath=20&products_id=105

[Pyroboy597]

I just checked out the ion manual on Smartparts website. This looks like it will work, but with out one ni my hands to judge the size its really tough to tell for sure.

One question I have about that board is, can you disable the eyes? Also, if you really wanted to go all out, you could replace that board with something like a Morlock for a little added flexability. Im not sure if you can adjust the dwell on that ION board so if anyone knows for sure please let us know. I couldnt tell you what you would need to set it at for a set up like your proposing, but I bet its shorter than the 30ms the Emags need.

The eyes are disabled by pressing the on/off button quickly after the gun is turned on. The dwell is also adjustable, mine is at 8ms.

[temps]

it would be quite a bit of over kill as well, you would only need one hose as the mpa-3 uses a spring return and not air return.


Can we plug that other hose??

[neppo1345]

I don't see why not...

[professor_chaos]

http://www.punisherspb.com/factory-replacement-parts_2190.aspx good place to find a few replacement parts if you need them.

[Scott Hudnall]

Well....here's the set up...

got a Logic V2 frame.
got the MPA-3.
got air lines, etc
got the front LP reg....need to drill/tap the vert adapter.
ION board set is on it's way.


I'll take pics and post them as I go.

:cheers:


edit - BTW....there's a huge amount of room in the Logic V2 frame. Trigger stop, too. I don't think "fitting it in the frame" is going to be a problem. the frame is significantly wider than the Intelliframe, much deeper, too. More cut away inside than the intelliframe. I might have to take a dremel to the intelliframe-warp mount. We'll see. My only real concern at this point is positioning the board to allow for easy access to the microswitch. Of course, I may end up gently removing that switch and positioning it elsewhere. We'll see.

[donalson]

i'm looking into doing an e-Y framed pneumag... i'm still in the reserch phase but thats besides the point

as for operating pressure of the ion... 175ish is about where it likes to be... so can be higher or lower

senariodreams has the entire T-board setup here...
http://www.scenariodreams.com/productpages/iontboard.htm

you can just by the noid or other odds and ends for fairly low prices... if you removed the stuff from the ion board and seperatly mounted things it would fit in the mag frame fairly easily w/ a little cleaning out of some of the parts...

ok back to my reserch :)

[FinchMan]

Well....here's the set up...

got a Logic V2 frame.
got the MPA-3.
got air lines, etc
got the front LP reg....need to drill/tap the vert adapter.
ION board set is on it's way.


I'll take pics and post them as I go.

:cheers:


edit - BTW....there's a huge amount of room in the Logic V2 frame. Trigger stop, too. I don't think "fitting it in the frame" is going to be a problem. the frame is significantly wider than the Intelliframe, much deeper, too. More cut away inside than the intelliframe. I might have to take a dremel to the intelliframe-warp mount. We'll see. My only real concern at this point is positioning the board to allow for easy access to the microswitch. Of course, I may end up gently removing that switch and positioning it elsewhere. We'll see.


I like this idea, I can't wait to see if it works out successfully. Eventually you could even put in eyes if you wanted to.

[Scott Hudnall]

i'm looking into doing an e-Y framed pneumag... i'm still in the reserch phase but thats besides the point

as for operating pressure of the ion... 175ish is about where it likes to be... so can be higher or lower

senariodreams has the entire T-board setup here...
http://www.scenariodreams.com/productpages/iontboard.htm




Follow that link to the pic of the scenariodreams Tboard for the ion. Again, note how small the entire set up is compared to the 9v battery adapter. (Tboard is $80 new as shown and has a 120 day warranty.)

[noahyay]

I find that tapping things is hard.
What I did

A micro rock LPR has an input pressure up to 1200 pis
A 1/8 to C/A adapter will let you use it as a front grip.

[FinchMan]

anybody have pictures of their progress?

[nicad]

Not to rain on anyones party (even tho it has been raining here ALL day!! :( )...

Realize that the Ion solenoid configuration is designed to hold the output line pressurized until it "fires" ("normally open"), in which it VENTS on activation.. so it is operating backwards from what you would want in a E-pneuMag.

example- it would have to hold the ram activated until you fire, in which case it will vent the ram. You could have a spring or something to actually move the sear, and the ram would keep the spring compressed otherwise.

This means, it is not impossible, but will more than likely be somewhat slow in firing and you will have to run the ram at about twice the normal force required to fire the sear reliably (spring must be strong enough to move the sear reliably, and then ram must compress the spring reliably.. double the effort to accomplish the task.)
This will also result in a possible discharge of the gun when it is being gassed up or degassed-- potentially dangerous.

second option- modify the Ion solenoid to function in a "normally close".
it is possible, but would require some serious doings. :eek:

Lets see some ingenuity!!
have fun! :) :)

[temps]

hmm.. the ion solenoid has 3 hoses connecting to it, one input, two out. So one of the hoses works 'backwards'.. what about the other tube, does that one work 'normally'??

I've been thinking of other alternatives to the ion board.. and maybe someone here can answer the question. Can a shocker board fire any solenoid or only a shocker solenoid. Basically I'm trying to figure out how a board controls a solenoid and is it unique to the solenoid it uses. If it isnt then we can take a shocker board (or any board) and a simple two way solenoid to power the mpa-3 (anyone know of a good 2 way solenoid that would work well for this application (small, compact and fast)).

Would this be a good 2 way solenoid Clippard The Mouse (http://www.clippard.com/store/byo_electronic/byo_mouse_valves.asp)

[nicad]

You do not want a 2-way pneumatic solenoid. You want a 3-way.. or a 4/5-way, but that is overkill. a 2-way just will not work.

I would say most boards will work with most other 'noids (timmies, angels, shockers, impulses, B2k, etc)... as long as the voltages are reasonably close and the current required by the noid is not more than the board can produce. If these get too far off, performance will surely suffer.

The Ion board/noid requires a high current spike to operate, and thus the board has a capacitor to help deliver the spike. a shocker board could not work with an Ion noid.

The Ion noid also acts as a "T" splitter for the main air supply to the Ion.. that is why it has 3 air lines.
the top two larger ones keep going through, and the top hat of the noid "T"s in and picks air out of the main line's supply.
the smaller lower air line is the "signal" through the 'noid. There is also a vent hole in the bottom of the noid where the air goes when it vents.

re-arranging the top two line will do nothing.
After thinking on how the Ion noid works internally, I do not think it would be feasible to modify it to operate in a Normally Closed operation, due to the nature of the design.

yesno? :) :)

[temps]

So I was looking at the clippard mouse valve (http://www.clippard.com/store/byo_electronic/byo_mouse_valves.asp) that is 1.56x1.187x.875 inches. Can be used in 6,12 or 24 volts (or another voltage can be used appon request). To use this solenoid I need to know the voltage and current that is being sent by the shocker board to the solenoid. Also the shocker wire assemly has more then two wires, I would need to know of, or find a diagram to know which 2 wires control the solenoid and what the other wires are used for.


And yea, modifing the ion solenoid wouldnt be the best thing to do, but depending how its mounted you may be able to attach a different solenoid to the ion board.

[Arstron]

It would be pretty hard to fit it all in a mag frame, but what about a wrath/ar-1/T-1/zip kit board and solenoid? They should work perfect for a mag, they are normaly closed valves and the rams they use are spring returned, so if it was hooked up to a mpa-3 it would work perfect. The board and solenoid is fairly big however...

[benzy2]

If you are going to go the route of using the type of noid as in a wrath you might as well just use either a tboard or a timmy board. Almost every board is better than what comes stock in the zip kits. Any single noid board would work.

[Scott Hudnall]

Whoa NICAD......talk about raining on the parade. I know you have insight into how these things work, however, so I take what you are saying as being true.

So the air line going in is pressurized, obviously. AND both outgoing lines are pressurized continuously? Can you direct me to a "how the ion works" video clip to show the air flow? A slowed down graphics video showing what happens internally with the ION when it cycles?

Thanks. Now that I've already tapped my vertical adapter and placed the LP reg, have the ion board on order.....hmmmm.....

maybe replacing the solenoid. I'm searching my clippard catalog....

[Scott Hudnall]

Never mind.....here is the tech info on WARPIG:

ION air flow diagrams and tech stuff.... (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/smartparts/ion/howitworks.shtml)

still looking into it...



what about reversing polarity to the solenoid? and capping the "through" line?

[Surestick]

Is there no barb on the vent to connect a hose to? If there was, could you connect the pressurised line from the solenoid that normally holds the bolt on the Ion back (so you have a supply of pressure to vent) & the input to the solenoid (if the solenoid needs the pressure) to the LPR & the vent to your ram.
Might need a QEV on the ram and some fiddling with the dwell...

[Arstron]

Is there no barb on the vent to connect a hose to? If there was, could you connect the pressurised line from the solenoid that normally holds the bolt on the Ion back (so you have a supply of pressure to vent) & the input to the solenoid (if the solenoid needs the pressure) to the LPR & the vent to your ram.
Might need a QEV on the ram and some fiddling with the dwell...

wouldn't a ram that is pneumatic return instead of spring return work with this setup? let the pushing side of the ram be preasurized at all times, then the oreasurized side will be the one releasing the air when fired which will let the ram work right. thoughts?

[FinchMan]

yeah, just have a ram thats default extended, then when pressure is applied, it contracts.

It shouldn't be too hard to make/find.

something like: http://clippard.com/store/byo_cylinder/byo_stainless_details.asp?sku=SRR-05-1/4-B||N

[Arstron]

Actually I am thinking of somthing like a normal cocker ram only we would need one quite a bit smaller. The back side (that pushes forward) is preasurized at all times, the front side (that returns the ram to its resting position) will have preasure until the gun fires. This will allow the ram to act normally and work with the ION.

[BigEvil]

Anyone know how many PSIs it takes to trip the MPA-3 ?

[angel4life1]

A good noid to use with a spring return ram is this one

http://www.airsoldier.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=SMC-S070C-SDG-32&Category_Code=SOLENOIDS

It is so small. You would have plenty of room in the frame for this.

[Scott Hudnall]

To understand how the ION board and air flow works, you should follow the link above to the WARPIG site.
At the Solenoid:
Air line flows in, directly through a "T" fitting, which is the first barb on the solenoid, to pressurize the dump/firing chamber in the ION. Air is constantly going through that line. This line feeds pressure to the BACK of the spool valve.

Air pressure is constantly in the second barb on the solenoid, also, and when you trigger the switch on the ION board, it SHUTS OFF the air in this line. This line, talking in 'mag terms, acts like the return spring and sear that holds the bolt back....all in one, and pressurizes the front end of the spool valve. When you shut it off (via trigger/switch) it depressurized the front end of the spool valve, allowing the pressure in the back end of the gun to push the bolt forward, which chambers the ball and fires the paintball.

It's the forward and backward movement of the bolt inside of the spool valve which shuts off pressure in the back, allowing the front pressure to re-set the bolt.

Take a look at the video.....it will make more sense.

A new solenoid, however, which is a "3-way, normally closed" would work perfect to replace the ION solenoid on the board, and should work in this project perfectly.

[noahyay]

a normally open three way is just what I am looking for in my newest project title new gun design here in the workshop.

Only question is if the ion can exhaust at a high enough flow and pressure to fire a paintball...

[nicad]

Short answer: no. :(

[noahyay]

thats what I figured, ive been messing around with the design a bit though, you could easily make an autococker that performs like a intimmidator.

Nicad: do you know the amount of scfm's needed to fire a paintball at 100psi? for example: a valve is rated at 20 scfm at 100 psi. Will it fire a paintball?

did some calculations:

275fps
.0036spf
0.0024seconds per 8 inches
0.0048seconds acceleration time

.68 diameter
.34 radius
.36298 area
2.9 cubic inches for 8 inches acceleration area

1728 cu inches in cu foot

10cfm
17280cubic inches a minute
288cubic inches a second
1.3824 cubic inches per .0048 seconds

this seems to tell me it takes slightly over 20 scfm to fire a paintball, but this is guessing im pretty sure that I dont know what im doing.

[Arstron]

does anyone know the amount of force needed to push an automag sear at the very bottom of the sear? I am currious what it is with a classic valve and rt/x valve with stock on/offs and ule trigger kits.

[nicad]

on the trigger rod- I do not recall what the stock on/off or the RT on off is, but the ULT is right about 1lb.
I am thinking the RT is about 3lb... but I am not for sure.


noahyay-
No idea on the CFM required. Maybe PBJosh would know??
I guess one way to find out is to try your esitmation with a real life setup. That would tell you very quickly if your on the right track. :)

[paintball sycho]

the ion board would work perfectly for what is trying to be accomplished. its quite simple. think of a cocker. if you flip teh hoses on the ram it uns backwords. so if the ion board actuated the mpv-3 imediatly when you turned it on, just flop the hoses to make it fire when you pull the trigger.

[nicad]

the ion board would work perfectly for what is trying to be accomplished. its quite simple. think of a cocker. if you flip teh hoses on the ram it uns backwords. so if the ion board actuated the mpv-3 imediatly when you turned it on, just flop the hoses to make it fire when you pull the trigger.

What do you base your information on? It will not work.
A cocker is a 4-way. The Ion is a 3-way, and it is a Normally Open valve, with no option of changing the "vent" and "load" ports..

I'll give a DW t-shirt and a load of stickers to whoever can make an Ion board+solenoid activate a mag sear.

go! ;)

[Scott Hudnall]

Nicad -

from what you know about the ION board and solenoid -

Could we change the solenoid? Put in a different solenoid (or wire around the existing one) that would work as a 3 or 4 way normall closed valve? I'm interested in your thoughts and if you have any parts in mind that would work for that.

Obviously, in this project, the problem is the solenoid, not anything else on the ION board. So if we used a different solenoid, it might work?

Thanks my friend!

[nicad]

sure the Ion board will drive almost any type of solenoid.. but it is pretty much overkill on the power ouput since it was designed to directly punch a solenoid running at ~150psi. For your E-pneu-mag projects, I don't see needing to run over 60psi, which most any small 10mm noid (or the VERY tiny one from ASP (http://www.airsoldier.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=SMC-S070C-SDG-32&Category_Code=SOLENOIDS)).

But, now what are you left with? an Ion board w/o its solenoid. Then why use an Ion board-- why not another type of board? Maybe the Ion board is small and self-contained? cheap maybe? For the firing modes? I don't know.. I personally would go with a mini-Morlock or some Predator-variant or something along those lines-- but it would be more $$. Up to yall! :)

[Scott Hudnall]

Come on Nicad......put one together for us to see. It's a small challenge that will take you all of 30 minutes... :rolleyes:

You've done some amazing stuff and I just reviewed your DW trigger video again. Yes, it kicks arse!

Is there an actuator besides the MPA-3 that you would recommend?

Thanks again, my friend!

[Arstron]

What do you base your information on? It will not work.
A cocker is a 4-way. The Ion is a 3-way, and it is a Normally Open valve, with no option of changing the "vent" and "load" ports..

I'll give a DW t-shirt and a load of stickers to whoever can make an Ion board+solenoid activate a mag sear.

go! ;)

What about somthing like I said earlier (I have a hard time of puting my thoughts into words). Take a ram similar to a autococker, have the line that vents when it is fired hooked up to the front of the ram and the constant preasure hose to the rear. When you pull the trigger the front will vent and allow the rear to move forward. Or am I completly wrong in thinking that the solenoid puts out the same amount of preasure from each line?

[nicad]

What about somthing like I said earlier (I have a hard time of puting my thoughts into words). Take a ram similar to a autococker, have the line that vents when it is fired hooked up to the front of the ram and the constant preasure hose to the rear. When you pull the trigger the front will vent and allow the rear to move forward. Or am I completly wrong in thinking that the solenoid puts out the same amount of preasure from each line?

That is creative thinking, and would almost work! :)
however, on any air ram that has dual air inputs and one shaft output (ala- cocker ram), if equal pressure is applied to both the front and the back, the ram will extend, since there is more surface area on the back side of the plunger than there is on the front (the ram shaft subtracts surface area on the front side). Force = PSI x square inch.

Unless, you swapped the ram around, connected full-time pressure to the front, then the "signal" air from the Ion 'noid to the back.. then the ram would stay extended until you fired and it would retract... so you would have to "rig" the ram to be facing forwards (away from the sear) in the frame and a wrap-around bracket coming back to the sear. This setup would be much more safe than a spring trying to extend the ram, which would cause possible mis-fires on gassing up/down of the gun. You want a short, dual acting ram, with a large a shaft as you can find (will help create a larger offset of force on the sear when the 'noid vents). unfortunately, when you have fighting pressures like this, the movement usually isnt very "snappy". your mileage will vary.


sorry I get typing away and dont know when to stop. :) :)

have fun!

[noahyay]

a clippard reg would do the trick for the ram pressure problem

It would be EASY to turn a cocker into a ion but with less problems.

Then I realized that it could would work just like a timmy/imp if you had an eblade or any board with adjustable dwell and an electric 4 way

The most logical thing to do right now with the board is to use a spring to actuate the sear.



Alright,
voltage regulator to 5 volts
tiny 3 way nicad mentioned
micro switch
9v
mpa3 or smav2 or simmilar.
micro rock

on a side note:
what do you think is more reliable/efficent/consistant:
velocity change by time that valve is open, hammer (timmy/cocker/spyder)
velocity change by dump chamber air amount, pressure (mag/epic/matrix)

[benzy2]

on a side note:
what do you think is more reliable/efficent/consistant:
velocity change by time that valve is open, hammer (timmy/cocker/spyder)
velocity change by dump chamber air amount, pressure (mag/epic/matrix)
Timmies/cockers/spyders have all been known, when set correctly, to have very consistant shots which show they are a decent design. At the same time mags/matricies have been shown to also be able to put very consistant shots out as well. I think the big thing is your regs and the consistancy of the board. As long as you can supply a consistant flow and have repeatable cycles(meaning the bolt or what not moves the same ms each shot) both desings are consistant.

[Scott Hudnall]

would this 3way work on the ION board project? 3 way, normally closed.

pneumadyne 3way (http://ebmhost13.ebm.bestsoftwarehost.com/iwwidb.pvx?;multi_item_submit)

[noahyay]

link not work?

any 3 way valve n.c. should work with enough flow

[Scott Hudnall]

Let's try a different link for a 3 way solenoid, small sized.

Solenoid 3 way (http://www.poweraire.com/products/valves/solenoidvalves/valve-3wayplastic.php)


Or a variety from Clippard....

Clippard Solenoid, including Mouse solenoid (http://www.clippard.com/store/byo_electronic/)



Or one from the many sites on the 'net.

Maybe a dealer or AO tech guy can recommend a specific solenoid, 3 way, normally closed, that would work perfectly for this IONized 'mag frame project? Seriously, though, it's gotta work and be available! Thanks.

[Scott Hudnall]

I got a PM from somebody stating that you should be careful about the 3way. he hinted that he had one that would work.....still waiting on the details, however.

Looking at the ION board, I'm wondering if that capacitor above the microswitch would have to be moved, or possibly replaced with one taking up less space.

[warbeak2099]

You could solder wires between the board and the capacitor.

[nicad]

finally! found what I was looking for a while back.
YDNA has created an awesome site with mucho tech info.. and a whole page dedicated to the Ion solenoid.
http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/solenoids_selfactuated.html

out!

[Arstron]

finally! found what I was looking for a while back.
YDNA has created an awesome site with mucho tech info.. and a whole page dedicated to the Ion solenoid.
http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/solenoids_selfactuated.html

out!

Thanks! Thats pretty useful. :)

[Scott Hudnall]

Thanks Nicad!

What solenoid would you recommend using, as 3 way normally closed, to replace the ION solenoid to use in this project?

Solenoids ----to MPA-3 as a sear tripping actuator.

Thanks.

[Arstron]

I just foun this animation of how the ion works, for those that need a visual diagram. :D

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/ion_superrender3.gif

[UglyIronman]

I don't have a solution to the "the-Ion-solenoid-is-only-a-fancy-vent" problem, but about making the switch fit...

Microswitches are usually set up as Normally-Open. If this is the case with the Ion, you could simply wire a separate switch in parallel with the one on the board.

The pins should be accessible on the back side of the circuit board. in the animation just above you see the three large pins that hold the switch onto the circuit board. Those should be "C", "NO", and "NC". They are probably all soldered down sor strength, but only the "C" and "NO" will have connections to the circuit board. It should be easy to just solder a pair wire onto the those two posts on the circuit board. Then run the wires to the second switch (anywhere you want) and the gun will fire when either switch is closed.

If they did something strange and went with "Normally-Closed" you would have to put the new switch in series with the old switch. You could cut one of the lines on the circuit board and connect one wire to each side. That would work too, but it's very unlikely that they did it with a NC switch.

1) its easier than removing the original switch.
2) it maintains the value of the board in case you want to sell it later.

[FinchMan]

it still doesnt make sense to my why we cant just use a different kind of ram, instead of trying to replace the solinoid.

[Scott Hudnall]

NICAD - here's a question for ya about the ION solenoid.

Since I want to use this as a sear tripping device, with a Clippard MPA-3 cylinder tripping the sear....


The MPA-3 is self venting. When it gets to a certain point, the air from the cylinder vents.

What about closing the 2 outlets on the ION solenoid that are gas-through while the solenoid is normally open, and using the vent at the bottom of the solenoid as the outlet to the MPA-3? If the flow is high enough, it should work since the MPA-3 will vent itself at a certain point, making a 3-way normally closed circuit...essentially. am I right?


come on....tell me you think it might work.....or just lie to me to make me feel better. ;) :cheers:

[nicad]

NICAD - here's a question for ya about the ION solenoid.

Since I want to use this as a sear tripping device, with a Clippard MPA-3 cylinder tripping the sear....


The MPA-3 is self venting. When it gets to a certain point, the air from the cylinder vents.

What about closing the 2 outlets on the ION solenoid that are gas-through while the solenoid is normally open, and using the vent at the bottom of the solenoid as the outlet to the MPA-3? If the flow is high enough, it should work since the MPA-3 will vent itself at a certain point, making a 3-way normally closed circuit...essentially. am I right?


come on....tell me you think it might work.....or just lie to me to make me feel better. ;) :cheers:

lol.. ill let you pick one of these two responces... :)


#1) The ion noid has no spring, it relies on a difference of air pressure to make the plunger inside return to its normal position (at rest). If you use the vent port (connect it to the the MPA3), block off the plastic normal output on the noid, feed air to the top as normal, and block of the other "T" fitting (it is just not needed), You will have created a 2-way noid, which will not work.
What will happen is this- once you fire once (which will work fine once!), The Ion noid will not return to its resting position because the MPA3 will hold the pressure in it (nowhere for the pressure between the noid and mpa3 to go!), and there will be no difference in pressure in the noid. So, it will activate and stay pressurized until you de-gas the system. Even if the plunger did somehow return to resting, all that will do is seal off the MPA3.. and never let it vent. The MPA3 may have an over-pressure vent on it(??), but that will not vent its operation pressure like you are wanting.

#2) it will work fine. ;)

choose wisely!! :ninja:

[nicad]

well, here ya go...
As I was typiong my last message, I got to thinking about how it could be done...

After a few minutes of scratching head, and then a few more minutes of modifications, I have a modified ion noid here that is driving an air ram (ie mpa3) beautifuly. :)

I placed a little 2-56 air nipple into the vent port (drill + tap the port ruins the vent seat surface, but the air nipple edge is now the new seat surface).
machined down a section of the plunger, and added a spring to hold it down.

configuration:
origional "T" inputs - just vents.. could be cut off.
origional output port- connected to a singleacting air ram.
origional vent- now the input.


http://www.deadlywind.com/files/misc/ion-noid-mod/02060003s.jpg

http://www.deadlywind.com/files/misc/ion-noid-mod/02060004s.jpg

[temps]

:eek:

:hail: We're not worthy! We're not worthy! :hail:

[FinchMan]

so you modified the noid to have a spring?

can it now work as a 3way noid? that'd be useful, except wouldn't you need qevs now, because there's no vent on the noid.

[nicad]

so you modified the noid to have a spring?

can it now work as a 3way noid? that'd be useful, except wouldn't you need qevs now, because there's no vent on the noid.

huh?? :confused: :confused:

It was always a 3-way (still is), I just converted it from Normally Open to Normally Closed by adding a spring on the plunger and an air fitting on the bottom.

out!

[FinchMan]

huh?? :confused: :confused:

It was always a 3-way (still is), I just converted it from Normally Open to Normally Closed by adding a spring on the plunger and an air fitting on the bottom.

out!

ah, i missed the part where you made the original vent into an input, and made the original input a vent.

... How much you want for one? :rolleyes:

[Scott Hudnall]

Nicad - that is EXACTLY what I was trying to describe, my friend!

The only thing that I didn't have in place was the spring.

ahhhemmm......please feel free to send me that noid or the entire set up.....in place of that DW t-shirt you posted as the reward earlier in this thread.

PM me if you need my address.....

Thanks for your diligence on this. That is awesome work.

How much to modify the noid if I send it to you? PM me. I appreciate it.

WOW...I just can't believe that it's finally arrived at this point.

[tae]

:eek:
Very nice!

[Scott Hudnall]

regarding the need for the spring return....

If you ran the air line to the T fitting and then to the normally out position (not the vent), wouldn't that return the plunger after firing the solenoid, since it would allow air pressure into the top of the solenoid, pushing the plunger down? Would it likely hold it's seal?

That would alleviate the need to machine down the plunger and add the spring.

[BigEvil]

Just a heads up to all DIY'ers. I may have a MUCH easier solution. Im working on it.Wont be as cheap as the ion set up, but if all goes well, will be able to fit inside an Intelliframe.

Im still in the research phase. Some of the parts that i ordered are special order items and take 4 or more weeks.

Plus, I contacts a local shop about getting a few things custom made for me. That of course, will take time.

and dont get me started about the TAG diy boards. If anyone has been following Curt's blog, the micro-morlock he's working on would be perfect. Even better, since TAG said they will sell it with the predator code on it. Im keeping my fingers crossed that they will be out by April.

How would people feel about a remote mounted battery if it were done in a asthetically pleasing way?

Dont mean to thread jack. Back on topic. :-)

[FinchMan]

Just a heads up to all DIY'ers. I may have a MUCH easier solution. Im working on it.Wont be as cheap as the ion set up, but if all goes well, will be able to fit inside an Intelliframe.

Im still in the research phase. Some of the parts that i ordered are special order items and take 4 or more weeks.

Plus, I contacts a local shop about getting a few things custom made for me. That of course, will take time.

and dont get me started about the TAG diy boards. If anyone has been following Curt's blog, the micro-morlock he's working on would be perfect. Even better, since TAG said they will sell it with the predator code on it. Im keeping my fingers crossed that they will be out by April.

How would people feel about a remote mounted battery if it were done in a asthetically pleasing way?

Dont mean to thread jack. Back on topic. :-)

astetically mounted? like the emag pack? sure. I'm just waiting for a easy electromod besides the spydermag.

the ion frame gets close, expecially with the 'noid mod. And because stock ion boards are cheap(er), they seem pretty ideal for an electro-pneumag.

[Scott Hudnall]

waiting on a few final fittings from Clippard, then will start the project.

The ION board/noid "almost" fits in my Logic vertical frame, will only take a very little shaving on one side to get it in there. Plenty of room, my friends.

I've not taken pics yet. Will do so as I go along and post them.

[nicad]

Nicad - that is EXACTLY what I was trying to describe, my friend!

The only thing that I didn't have in place was the spring.

ahhhemmm......please feel free to send me that noid or the entire set up.....in place of that DW t-shirt you posted as the reward earlier in this thread.


Scott-
please see what the offer was.. ;)


I'll give a DW t-shirt and a load of stickers to whoever can make an Ion board+solenoid activate a mag sear.

The idea was to make ya get your hands dirty and DO it... find out how and why things work the way they do.

If you run air to the "T" and to the load port, yes you would not need the spring, but you would also not have a vent port anymore.. the sear ram would not return.


The offer still stands.... and there is already one way shown to do it..
go!

[Scott Hudnall]

If you run air to the "T" and to the load port, yes you would not need the spring, but you would also not have a vent port anymore.. the sear ram would not return.




NICAD - hold on there.......

in order to use the normal ION 'noid "output" line as an input line, as you have shown, you would have to seal the top "T" fitting on both sides or else it would continuously vent air to the atmosphere when the solenoid was in it's normal position. Looking at the diagram above AND at my ION solenoid, there's no way it would NOT vent continuously in it's normally resting position unless the T fitting is sealed.

What did you do with the "T" fitting when you had the MPA-3 being run by the ION board and solenoid?

With your modified configuration, turning the 3wayNO to a 3wayNC, the air would enter through the nipple coming out of the side of the solenoid, filling the solenoid chamber. The plunger would hold the air from venting out of the bottom of the chamber, but the air would most certainly vent upwards through the hole to the "T" fitting, venting out to atmosphere when the newly configured solenoid was in it's normally closed position.

I believe that analysis is correct. You may have a different explanation....I'm interested.

So, there must be some further explanation as to why you were able to get the MPA-3 to cycle using your mod.

[neppo1345]

q.e.v

[nicad]

q.e.v

QEVs are not magic. they do not create 3-ways out of 2-ways. All they do is amplify a flow in one direction. That is all. you can not throw a QEV at something to fix it like you can money. ;)


Scott-
No, that is not how I have it connected. In my post I described how I have the air connections.



configuration:
original "T" inputs - just vents.. could be cut off.
original output port- connected to a singleacting air ram.
original vent- now the input.


and thus is why you need a spring on the noid plunger. :)

out!

[FinchMan]

so who's making one?

curses on my slim/none college upgrades budget.

[Scott Hudnall]

I'm right in the middle of it.

Okay Nicad.....thanks for clearing up the confusion (on my behalf). After re-reading your post, it makes perfect sense.

Okay, so if I were to drill a small relief hole in the MPA-3, which would allow the pressure to vent when the actuator was at the maximum level (or workable level) in the cylinder, then the MPA-3 should vent and make the air circuit a 3 way.

I have enough room in the Logic frame to allow for a little forward/backward adjustment of the MPA3, so maybe that is my solution.

How well do you think your air input mod (newly placed air nipple) will hold up under moderate use? Do you think that the threads will hold up considering that the plastic is a little thin there?

I emailed YDNA and posted a link to your mod. He was impressed and said it looks like it will work fine.

You've done great work. Thanks.

[nicad]

Cool... YDNA is the man when it comes to anything smart parts.. and then some. :)


I am not sure I understand what you are trying to accomplish with the hole drilled in the MPA3 tho.
With the way I modified tyhe Ion noid, the hole is not needed.
With the "springless" 2-way Ion noid you were talking about doing, a hole in the MPA3 will still not return... unless I am completely mis-understanding what you are wanting to do.??


The air barb on the bottom in the plastic is pretty sound.. It could be stripped out I suppose, but you would have to really be trying... :argh:

out!

[Scott Hudnall]

I've not made any solenoid mods yet. I'm stll considering the next step. obviously, one stupid move with the solenoid or board and it's history.

When you drilled the bottom of the solenoid housing to put the air barb in it, did you have to tap it also, or was the plastic thin enough pretty much self tap? Do you think a spot of glue or anything else would help to reinforce it?

Thanks. If I decide to go with the solenoid mod you've accomplished, I would need some help with the plunger being machined. and maybe a small spring. I can handle the rest. If you don't have time to do it, no problem. If you can (i know you are busy, man) then PM me with a price. Thanks Nicad.

[Bossman]

Great stuff Nicad. Great to see you involved with this thread.

[FinchMan]

I'm right in the middle of it.

Okay Nicad.....thanks for clearing up the confusion (on my behalf). After re-reading your post, it makes perfect sense.

Okay, so if I were to drill a small relief hole in the MPA-3, which would allow the pressure to vent when the actuator was at the maximum level (or workable level) in the cylinder, then the MPA-3 should vent and make the air circuit a 3 way.

I have enough room in the Logic frame to allow for a little forward/backward adjustment of the MPA3, so maybe that is my solution.

How well do you think your air input mod (newly placed air nipple) will hold up under moderate use? Do you think that the threads will hold up considering that the plastic is a little thin there?

I emailed YDNA and posted a link to your mod. He was impressed and said it looks like it will work fine.

You've done great work. Thanks.


Will you be making a thread with picutures and such when your finished to maybe be used as a guide for other people who want to make IonMags (Gah... ionMag sounds so wrong. I suggest it be called an iMag instead).

[Scott Hudnall]

Will you be making a thread with picutures and such when your finished to maybe be used as a guide for other people who want to make IonMags (Gah... ionMag sounds so wrong. I suggest it be called an iMag instead).


I will be posting pics, etc, as I go. I'm a day or so stalled waiting on some final parts from clippard. Don't dispair!!!!

There will be a slight difference in the solenoid mod between mine and Nicad's.

His air inlet is at the bottom of the solenoid where the he added the nipple. the spring keeps tension against the air input to keep it from leaking. The top "T" is the vent allowing the line to depressurize. The original output on the side is still the output he's using to run the MPA-3 actuator.

My mod will be to CAP one side of the "T", use the other side as an input (to push the plunger down) and use the air nipple on the side as an air input also. No mods will be done to the plunger. an air nipple will be added to the original vent on the solenoid. Of course, that makes it's a 2way without a vent, right? I will be adding a small line vent next to the MPA3 to allow the line to depressurize, which will make the circuit a 3 way normally closed circuit. Essentially, less of a mod to the solenoid than Nicad's, but should accomplish the same.

I realize that those 2 mods are kind of hard to follow without having the solenoid in your hand and knowing exactly how the air flow works and solenoid works.

With the Vertical Logic frame, which I understand are no longer being made, the board and solenoid will fit in it's original configuration, with 9v battery beneath it, with only very minor mods to the frame.

I'm anxious to get started and am awaiting the additional parts, that's all.

I will have a few extra air fiting parts and hose left over. I'll post them for sale when the project is done, identifying where I used them, etc.

I liked the term IONized 'mag......but really am taking a liking to the term "iMag".

[Scott Hudnall]

Okay...I just posted that last response and the door bell rang....UPS dropped me a box with the parts. Don't expect pics tonight....maybe in the next few days. Will be getting much of it done this weekend.

Now...it only took nicad 15 minutes to do the mod.

Uhm....I'm not nicad and don't have his tools. :rolleyes:

:cheers:

[Pyroboy597]

iMag pwns.

[nicad]

Scott-
I am not superman or anything.. :tard:
I am the type that takes everyting apart (aka: "break") to see how it works.. and have been since I was 3-4yrs old (or so they tell me).
The last 13 years I have targeted paintball with that "research and destroy" obsession.

Definitely keep us all updated with your progress..! :)

[Scott Hudnall]

Scott-
I am not superman or anything.. :tard:
I am the type that takes everyting apart (aka: "break") to see how it works.. and have been since I was 3-4yrs old (or so they tell me).
The last 13 years I have targeted paintball with that "research and destroy" obsession.

Definitely keep us all updated with your progress..! :)
Nicad - without your early input in this project (on this thread) it would have been abandoned long ago. I did finally figure out the solenoid input/output problem, but your mod with the vent through the "T" was the biggest help. While I'm not going to configure my air flow exactly like that, the realization that the vent could be before the MPA3 was huge.

I'll be getting started this weekend, will take pics all along the way.

cheers, my friend! :cheers:

[Scott Hudnall]

Here's an update!

I've got the complete air circuit done with the solenoid "mod". My "mod", not Nicad's.

This effectively proves there's 2 workable "mods" with the ION board and solenoid.

I'll post pics this weekend. Can't right now due to time constraints.

I've got the MPA3 working beautifully and it's even rockin' in the ION "ramping" mode.

I did not screw an air nipple through the bottom of the solenoid. I made, essentially, a plastic manifold with an air nipple in it, attached it to the bottom of the 'noid housing at the original vent site, and am using that to drive the MPA3. Works great. That allowed me to maintain the original plunger seat in the solenoid housing.

This is getting very very cool.

It's not, of course, mounted in a frame yet. That's the next step. But it's a complete air circuit, laid out on my counter top, working beatifully.

:cheers: Here's to the iMag.

[Skoad]

very cool :)

[FinchMan]

Here's an update!

I've got the complete air circuit done with the solenoid "mod". My "mod", not Nicad's.

This effectively proves there's 2 workable "mods" with the ION board and solenoid.

I'll post pics this weekend. Can't right now due to time constraints.

I've got the MPA3 working beautifully and it's even rockin' in the ION "ramping" mode.

I did not screw an air nipple through the bottom of the solenoid. I made, essentially, a plastic manifold with an air nipple in it, attached it to the bottom of the 'noid housing at the original vent site, and am using that to drive the MPA3. Works great. That allowed me to maintain the original plunger seat in the solenoid housing.

This is getting very very cool.

It's not, of course, mounted in a frame yet. That's the next step. But it's a complete air circuit, laid out on my counter top, working beatifully.

:cheers: Here's to the iMag.

man, that sounds awesome so far.

Once it's done, it should be the cheapest electropneumatic mod by far, and it'll be capable of eyes too. :D

[race]

whats a mpa-3 and ware do you get them im up for a try on this one

[geekwarrior]

is this going in the frame I sold you? :cheers:

cant wait to see it, wish I was a little more techy so I could help out....good luck! :headbang:

[Scott Hudnall]

Here's the progress thus far.

First, the air circuit. The manifold at the bottom of the noid is a nylon bushing that the air nipple threaded into fairly easily, cutting it's own threads. It is in there solid. I drilled the other end of the bushing with 1/4 inch bit, and it slides tightly over the bottom of the noid where the original exhaust/vent is located. easy to do. won't move....believe me. air tight. If you are worried about it moving, then put a touch of glue on before sliding it on. I'm not doing that, however.... PLEASE NOTE: while Nicad's earlier picture of his solenoid/plunger mod shows a spring needed to return the plunger, that is NOT needed in this mod. There is NO modification to the solenoid valve, only the routing of the air.

There is a small "T" connector just before the MPA3 with a cap on it, small hole made in the cap, to use as a vent, thus completing the 3 way air circuit. IF it turns out that the line vents too much air then I'll be drilling the MPA3 at near the maximum travel point to put a vent in it and allow the line to depressurize. No need for QEV as the line easily depressurizes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/scottandkelly_2000/IONboardAIRmod.jpg

Here's a closer look at the 'noid/board and the manifold I made to fit over the vent (which now powers the MPA3)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/scottandkelly_2000/boardNOIDmod.jpg

and the LOGIC vertical frame which will hold all the good stuff (I won't have the LPR in the frame, will be mounted elsewhere), I've got the frame marked up to show where the slight mods are needed (very slight, seriously), you may not be able to see the marks very well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/scottandkelly_2000/LOGICframeMPA3mark.jpg

The nylon bushing was found at ACE Hardware in their nuts and bolts section. The top of the ION 'noid is a "T" gas through, and I've capped one side with a proper air nut from Clippard.

I'll be posting more as the project gets further. The next step is getting the frame mod'd to fit the MPA3 (to trip the sear). Once that is done, then it will be board placement and getting the trigger to switch actuator made.

some guys have thrown out a few names for this.....how about the "iMag Oasis"??

[BigEvil]

Hey Scott,

What are you using in that MPA3 for a ram/piston to hit the mag sear? If you havent come up with anything, I might be able to help you out.

[FinchMan]

were you going to use the eyes? that should be interesting.

[Scott Hudnall]

I have modified the original sear actuating rod and pivot to be used with the MPA3, will post pics when it's completed and the sear rod is adjusted. Yes, it is adjustable so after the MPA3 is in there, I can still fine tune the sear rod length.

How well will my sear rod modification hold up??? I guess only field testing will tell. That's still down the road.

I'm in the midst of slowly modding the LOGIC frame to fit the MPA3 at this time. Got the area roughed in, need to smooth the edges, etc. Using a dremel and small drill. Not as high tech as I would like, but the work will be hidden under the grips anyway.

What did you have in mind BigEvil?

:cheers:

[calcote1]

Hey Scott,

Do you think that would work if you cap off both sides of the " T ".

[FinchMan]

Hey Scott,

Do you think that would work if you cap off both sides of the " T ".


seems like that would work.

I'd like to see just how well the tini hole in the cap is going to work. I take it your using the Reactivity from the automag to return the ram?


and I still don't see why it wouldn't of all just worked with a spring-forward air-back ram. :tard:

[calcote1]

The MPA3 itself has a spring inside that should return it to home position, after each shot.

[sgarmy]

i just noticed this thread today i havent been on ao in a while seems like this is going to work


has anyone ever thought of trying to do this with an electronic cocker frame i saw nicad talk about using a 3 way solenoid ( if im correct the front solenoid of an eblade is 3 way ) could the e frame and front solenoid be used to direct the ram you are using with your ion board to activate the sear on the mag if somone can give me some more direction this would be a project im willing to try

a lpr will be used then im stuck what to use to actuate the sear and i have 2 barbs left open on the e solenoid where would these go to

some help would be appreciated guys id like to make this work and i think its possible

[FinchMan]

i just noticed this thread today i havent been on ao in a while seems like this is going to work


has anyone ever thought of trying to do this with an electronic cocker frame i saw nicad talk about using a 3 way solenoid ( if im correct the front solenoid of an eblade is 3 way ) could the e frame and front solenoid be used to direct the ram you are using with your ion board to activate the sear on the mag if somone can give me some more direction this would be a project im willing to try

a lpr will be used then im stuck what to use to actuate the sear and i have 2 barbs left open on the e solenoid where would these go to

some help would be appreciated guys id like to make this work and i think its possible

i think with those two barbs you'd hook it up to a ram (not quiet as long a stroke as a cocker ram, but the same type) to actuate the sear.

[benzy2]

Ok so why would you put a t fitting with a hole in it instead of say a qev? Other than maybe just what you had on hand I would think a qev would be a better bet but maybe not.

[sgarmy]

ok so lets say for instance i take a mag body and rail i take an eblade frame e2, worr blade etc i mount somhow the e2 front solenoid and an lpr lpr will get air to it via the asa then i would run a 3 way hose from the lpr to the solenoid solenoid hoses to a ram similiar to what this guy is useing for the imag using that to trip a sear holefully very small and short i would most likely have to modify the eblade frame because it already has a small solenoid i belive that trips the sear in the autococker to let air into the valve


is what im trying to acomplish here out of reach

or am i better off staying with this guys i mag ideas

also what type of frame could i use i hear the shocker frame also bolts right up i know the autococker frames match perfect so im leaning towards being able to use that

could the small solenoid in the autococker grip frame be adapted to trip the sear in the mag

some helpful direction would be awsome im pretty new to this whole mod it yourself so its one of a kind but im starting to think this will work someone smarter corect me if im wrong

[FinchMan]

ok so lets say for instance i take a mag body and rail i take an eblade frame e2, worr blade etc i mount somhow the e2 front solenoid and an lpr lpr will get air to it via the asa then i would run a 3 way hose from the lpr to the solenoid solenoid hoses to a ram similiar to what this guy is useing for the imag using that to trip a sear holefully very small and short i would most likely have to modify the eblade frame because it already has a small solenoid i belive that trips the sear in the autococker to let air into the valve


is what im trying to acomplish here out of reach

or am i better off staying with this guys i mag ideas

also what type of frame could i use i hear the shocker frame also bolts right up i know the autococker frames match perfect so im leaning towards being able to use that

could the small solenoid in the autococker grip frame be adapted to trip the sear in the mag

some helpful direction would be awsome im pretty new to this whole mod it yourself so its one of a kind but im starting to think this will work someone smarter corect me if im wrong


I'd hafta suggest the spydermag mod to ya. You just modify a few things on an electro spyder grip frame, and drill new holes, then it bolts right on and it works fine with the ULT.

that would be pretty much the same thing as if you were to try to set up the noid in the cocker grip frame to actuate the sear.


To use the pneumatic noid, you would run a hose from the LPR (thats tapped into the VA) to the noid, then you would run the two hoses from the noid to a ram like this one (http://www.clippard.com/store/byo_cylinder/byo_stainless_details.asp?sku=UDR-05-1/2-B||). the ram would then be hooked up to the sear somehow.

Hopefully there would be room in the grip for something like that, but i don't know if there would be.

soo... yeah, i suggest a spydermag for ya, if you don't want to try something too crazy.

[sgarmy]

room in the grip frame for the ram probably not room in the rail possibly

i see that the ram has an optional part called a clevis this could be used to move the sear

do you know bow big that ram would be

and i would do the spydermag mod if it wasnt so cheesy and shotty looking


if all is lost ill do a hyperframe with a predator board and eyes

if this idea is shot i will most likely go with the mod you see before you the imag

so if somone could anwser my question of what a logical frame to use would be besides a logic it would be nice

[Scott Hudnall]

The MPA3 is a spring return. and the spring return is easily capable of cycling fast enough to keep up with the ramping mode.

Regarding the above question about QEV vs the air vent (red cap in air line of pic), I've got a QEV, might use it in the completed circuit, but the air vent certainly does vent fast enough to allow the MPA3 to cycle, even in ramping mode. I've not tried the QEV in the circuit yet. But one thing is for sure, as nicad pointed out, that without venting (or having a 3 way circuit), the MPA3 will not return....the air pressure will keep it pushed forward.

Everything is still in progress. And is progressing nicely. I'm stll working on fitting the MPA3 perfectly, just taking some patient dremel work. Also, I've mod'd the sear actuating rod, will post pics of that when it's all completed.

As I'm sure nicad would attest, when undertaking a new project like this, it just takes time to work out the little technical details. Look how long it took us to figure out the air flow on the ion solenoid to work with the MPA3, to operate as 3way normally closed rather than the ION air path of 3way normally open.

As you can see, there are 2 different and proven mods to the ION solenoid that allows it to operate the MPA3.

Regarding the question about capping both sides of the "T" at the top of the solenoid housing, I'm using the air flow down the middle of that fitting to return the plunger in the solenoid. Is it absolutely necessary? I don't know for sure, but it can't hurt at all, and gives the plunger positive force to seal against it's seat/seal in the solenoid housing. The air pressure behind the plunger (inside the solenoid housing) holds it sealed from that point.

This is a pretty cool thing. I'm taking my time to get it right...rather than rush through it and hack everything up and have a pile of unusable parts.

I'm also looking ahead to the debate of whether it will look better with a ULE body or a black PF body. I'm undecided at this point....guess it just depends on my preference at the time.

here's to the iMag :cheers:

[tae]

:clap:

Need to see some vids!

[FinchMan]

:clap:

Need to see some vids!

its not done yet. :P

lots of pics would be cool though. :rolleyes:


if you're going to have a X-valve in it, i'd say go with the ULE.

if you're going to use an older RT-vavle (or even classic valve :P) I'd say go with the powerfeed for a sleeper look.

...but then again, a sleeper with a vert frame... :tard:

naw, go with the ULE body, that way it's easier to encorperate eyes if you decide you want them, and it would be cooler with an X-vavle and vert frame and all the good stuff.

[sgarmy]

so what other frame could be logically used for this project

ive also still been thinking maybe that the cocker frame is out of reach anyone though about an intimidator frame yet

using same ram this guy is using but with intimidator solenoid board and eyes

my only reasoning for trying this is simplicity with board placement and room for the noid and battery can the mp3 be fitted here as well to actuate the sear

[Scott Hudnall]

so what other frame could be logically used for this project

ive also still been thinking maybe that the cocker frame is out of reach anyone though about an intimidator frame yet

using same ram this guy is using but with intimidator solenoid board and eyes

my only reasoning for trying this is simplicity with board placement and room for the noid and battery can the mp3 be fitted here as well to actuate the sear

I'm not familiar with the intimidator frames, if it would bolt on, allow room for the 'mag sear, etc. Can't help you there. sorry.

Cocker frame should bolt right on the 'mag rail, but is it milled out enough to allow for the sear, MPA3, etc? I can't answer that.

BigEvil has ordered some parts to use as the sear tripping plunger, to be activated by the MPA3. I'm sure he'll be posting more on this as they are available.

[geekwarrior]

hey, get back to work scott...no more posting till your done :p



i can hardly wait to see your finished work, good job so far :clap:

[UltraMag527]

2nd the motion...

[FinchMan]

hey, get back to work scott...no more posting till your done :p



i can hardly wait to see your finished work, good job so far :clap:


no no... it's don't post without more pictures. :cool:

The iMag gonna be awesome when it's done. :cheers:


....ok, ok, you can post if you want to. shiesh :argh: although it is a new weekend.... :rolleyes:

[Scott Hudnall]

You guys are too funny! :cheers:

I had no time to work on it this weekend due to being out of town. I'll have time and pics this week.

Still contemplating the trigger to microswitch connection. That's the biggest hurdle, although placement in the frame is not finished yet. That will probably dictate much of it.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Kory]

subscribing, this looks cool.
Kory

[Skoad]

So whats the problem with the microswitch? I understand it is directly on the board. Well you could get yourself a solder sucker and iron and wire up a new wire connected switch.


Where exactly is the switch going to end up in relation to the trigger and inside the frame?

[personman]

So whats the problem with the microswitch? I understand it is directly on the board. Well you could get yourself a solder sucker and iron and wire up a new wire connected switch.


Where exactly is the switch going to end up in relation to the trigger and inside the frame?
What he means is he hasnt come up with a way for the actual trigger to activate the switch.. I'm sure he was planning on desoldering it from the board anyway..

By the way this project has caught my eye... it's simple, cheap, and I'm suprised you have actually gotten it to work! I might try it sometime.. although I think I would have used the tboard, its a little cheaper I think.

I still dont quite grasp how your nylon bushing is held on to the solenoid valve.. it's just friction fit?

Anyway, great work.

[Scott Hudnall]

What he means is he hasnt come up with a way for the actual trigger to activate the switch.. I'm sure he was planning on desoldering it from the board anyway..

By the way this project has caught my eye... it's simple, cheap, and I'm suprised you have actually gotten it to work! I might try it sometime.. although I think I would have used the tboard, its a little cheaper I think.

I still dont quite grasp how your nylon bushing is held on to the solenoid valve.. it's just friction fit?

Anyway, great work.

I bought a used ION board from someone who had purchased a Blackheart from SP. $40 for a perfectly working board.

The nylon manifold I made is basically a tight friction fit. It's held up in testing, no problem, as long as the line is vented. I don't forsee any problems there.

I am planning on leaving the microswitch on the board. The problem to solve is drilling the frame, getting the angle right, manufacturing an actuating rod and making it light enough to not damage the switch, make it walkable, etc.

[Skoad]

I was going to suggest a rod like that if the board is sitting in a good spot for it. I figured you would have already thought of it ;)

[sgarmy]

I was going to suggest a rod like that if the board is sitting in a good spot for it. I figured you would have already thought of it ;)


what about tapping the trigger for an adjustable screw much like a trigger stop longer ofcourse but would be fully adjustable if mounted in the right spot you know in if your not hitting the switch enough out if you want it lighter

[ultralight]

can someone post a pic of the board, ram, and battery next to a frame for reference? any frame, it doesn't matter which one and the components don't need to be inside, i just want to gauge size. thanks.

sgarmy, depending on the position of the board inside the frame, i'd say tha's a great idea. even the original ion trigger has an arm extending off of it to hit the switch. that arm could easily be replaced by an adjustable screw. the only problem is that you would either need to get a really long set screw or you would have to mount a cap head screw backward so that the head activates the switch. that would be harder to adjust. especially if you're using sticky3's on an intelli (assuming that this cold even fit in an intelli).

[Scott Hudnall]

I should have a few more pics posted later today, showing the position of the board/noid in the logic frame, along with the MPA3. Still doing a little dremel work on the frame but almost done.

Looking for a black PF body or black ULE body for this project.

[geekwarrior]

:spit_take

[geekwarrior]

:cry: the wait is killing me

[RoamingStorm]

I just read through this entire thread, I think Im going to try this with a chimera. that would make my gun beautiful!! and rip!!, Can someone please give me a parts list? I really want to try this as long as it has been proven to work

-RS

[Scott Hudnall]

I've got a pic of the board mounted in the frame, along with the MPA3.

With a little better placement, I could have put the 9v in the frame. At this point, I'm going to use an Emag foregrip/battery pack to hold the 9v and LPR. That will make it nice and clean.

I'll post the pics later. There's thunder/lightening rolling in through here. turning the compy off until it's through.

[temps]

:clap: Cant wait to see the pics :D

[Scott Hudnall]

The air lines aren't finalized yet, but you will be able to see the fairly minimal amount of dremel work needed to fit this in the Logic vertical frame. It's in place, just needs to be tacked in place with a double sided foam tape.

Next step is to get the hole drilled for a trigger switch activating rod. I think I'm going to drill through the back of the frame, then plug the hole through the back of the frame with a small rubber piece.

Yes, yes....the board is "upside down" compared to the application in the ION. However, this allows me to have the trigger switch up higher, which should make for a shorter trigger pull.

and....I've got a black PF body on the way to use as the "first body" for this iMag. Will likely go to a black ULE eventually.






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/scottandkelly_2000/iMagFrame.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/scottandkelly_2000/iMagFrame2.jpg

[Kory]

That looks great. 2 questions.
1. how will you activate the sear?I think I figured out how you trip the sear. Do you have a top view of the frame?
2. Are you going to use a spring to return the trigger to it's non firing pisition when you let off of the trigger?
Thanks for the info. I would really like to do this on my micromag rt.
Kory

[FinchMan]

very nice so far. I may do this during the summer if I have the money.

[Scott Hudnall]

Kory -

a mod'd sear activating rod will be used to trip the sear.

The trigger return will likely be magnets. however, a light spring may also do the trick. placement of the magnets (or spring) has yet to be decided.

There's no manual on how to do this mod. :rolleyes:

so it's conquer each obstacle as I get to it.

It will all be pretty well documented by the time it's done, with pics and instrux found on this thread.

:cheers:

[RoamingStorm]

Is that a home installed safety? it looks really countersinked into the frame

[Kory]

Scott
The home built nature of this is what makes it so cool. I have been thinking about getting an emag, but I really like my micromag alot and would have a hard time parting with it. I think this is a much better option. Plus you actually get some better firing mods. The basic principle seems like it will work well. I may have to start collecting parts.
Keep the info coming.
Thanks,
Kory

[RoamingStorm]

Kory if your from New Berlin and Im from Racine, maybe we could build these and compare at a field?

[Kory]

I would be up for that. If you need any tabs welded on the trigger frame I could probably help you out with that as well. I tig for a living.
Where do you play?
Kory

[RoamingStorm]

black rain, sams, daves, or just peoples backyards

[Loco_AEXY]

Kory -
The trigger return will likely be magnets. however, a light spring may also do the trick. placement of the magnets (or spring) has yet to be decided.


If your looking for ideas on where to place the magnets I have a suggestion (though you may have already thought of this). I did a similar mod to one of those Logic Frames and what I found worked well was to simply remove the trigger, JB Weld a Rare Earth Magnet (www.kjmagnetics.com - great source and pretty cheep) on top of the little lip at the top of the trigger (being careful it will fit freely in the space in the frame) and then I put the other magnet (oriented to attract the one on the trigger) in the rail right above it. I used a ULE rail and so there was a big space to palce the amgnet but a recess could be drilled as well in the bottom of a solid rail. The end result was a very nice trigger feel. Just an idea in case you hadn't thoguht of it.

[FinchMan]

If your looking for ideas on where to place the magnets I have a suggestion (though you may have already thought of this). I did a similar mod to one of those Logic Frames and what I found worked well was to simply remove the trigger, JB Weld a Rare Earth Magnet (www.kjmagnetics.com - great source and pretty cheep) on top of the little lip at the top of the trigger (being careful it will fit freely in the space in the frame) and then I put the other magnet (oriented to attract the one on the trigger) in the rail right above it. I used a ULE rail and so there was a big space to palce the amgnet but a recess could be drilled as well in the bottom of a solid rail. The end result was a very nice trigger feel. Just an idea in case you hadn't thoguht of it.

that is pretty good, I think normally people use opposing magnets but what you say is pretty cool.

Only problem I can see (I really have no experience to if it would make any real difference) with using attracting magnets is that the magnetic field would get stronger the closer the trigger is to reset, instead being strongest at the back of the trigger pull.

This is because the magnetic fields' attraction/repulsion isn't linear. It's 1/d^2 where d = distance between the two magnets.

does that make sense to anyone :tard:

again, I don't know if there is any real difference when applied.

[Scott Hudnall]

Loco - that was pretty much what I was thinking for the magnet trigger return, incorporating the top "tip" of the trigger and using the rail for the opposing magnet for return. Good thinking....

Regarding the previous question about the safety, it's a Logic factory install, using an AGD safety. Counter sink looks deep because it is.....this frame is significantly wider than the stock one.

Sorry, no new pics tonight. Should have time in a few days to continue the mods and will post pics then.

and BigEvil...thanks for the PM and ideas. Don't forget to post about your MPA-3 Sear rod ideas and/or parts you had PM'd me about earlier.

[RoamingStorm]

Idea!! what about that ion membrane upgrade?!

[FinchMan]

Idea!! what about that ion membrane upgrade?!

I figure he'd worry about that once he got everything in and there was a complete product to be "upgraded."

But still, good point. :cool:

[RoamingStorm]

well as much as id love to do this upgrade and follow through the footsteps, my mag is now gone. Ill have another one going by mid summer probably

[Scott Hudnall]

membrane is on the agenda....just down the road a bit. excellent idea. i had looked at the DYE membranes a few months back also.

[afortuna]

membrane is on the agenda....just down the road a bit. excellent idea. i had looked at the DYE membranes a few months back also.

You may want to go with the t-board on this project. Much more versatile and no soldering needed for the membrane mod.

[Green_kat]

How have you secured the MPA-3 in the frame? Are you just putting a cut down sear rod inside the cylinder of the MPA-3? How does the length of the throw of the MPA compare with the actuation distance of the MPA? do you think that might cause bolt chipping like in the hyperframe?

[Scott Hudnall]

I've got some of the mods done, Green K, but haven' t got it all worked out yet.

I' ve been very busy with "life" in general lately....will be devoting more time to it this weekend. Hopefully more pics then.

I plan on securing the MPA3 with a set screw.

The trigger rod mod I have done is adjustable, so hopefully it will work fine. Don't know about the throw length. Have no knowledge about how the hyperframe works or bolt chipping.



Thanks.

[RoamingStorm]

so we need updates

[DoomWithAnXmag]

I see two things that may work better and make for more simple operation. You were saying about putting the board upside down so the switch is higher. If you took the capacitor (never lookd that close but I am guessing thats what it is) off you could move it parallel to the board and move the board higher in the frame. Also if you took the switch off and it could be mounted on the metal tap right above it in the pictuture. That would allow a direct line from switch to trigger. Both of these would be pretty easy to do and make for a more efficent install.

[ultralight]

doom: it really does seem that the most likely way to fit it all into a smaller frame (intelli) is to desolder everything (switch, noid, capacitor) from the board. it would get pretty crazy in there, but it would be worth it.

i'm with roaming storm, WE NEED UPDATES!!

[DoomWithAnXmag]

Really to do it right I would get a neutral board and copy the circuitry of the blackhart board onto it in a manner that would fit the frame.

[AnthonyDStone]

It would work perfectly if you could fit it in the frame...

I personally think it's a great idea...however...

It's kinda like putting the engine from a chevy into a ford...

Well since fords are ****,it would be more like putting an engine from a ford into a much better,Chevy! :p

Tony :cheers:

[nicad]

Well since fords are ****,it would be more like putting an engine from a ford into a much better,Chevy! :p

Tony :cheers:

huh.. really? ;)

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/110808089865821574/images/Ford_GT_30.jpg

[RoamingStorm]

Really to do it right I would get a neutral board and copy the circuitry of the blackhart board onto it in a manner that would fit the frame.

what about the programming?

[Stealth Fighter]

Well since fords are ****,it would be more like putting an engine from a ford into a much better,Chevy! :p

Tony :cheers:


Then why do more people put there Chevy engine into a Ford, if Ford's are ****, they would have bought a Chevy in the first place. :rolleyes: DUH!

[Corbet]

Just discovered this thread and things look like its really coming along!

I'm not advanced enough to try and do this myself just yet but when full instructions with pics are up I'd be interested in doing this!

Will it be possible with a y-grip?

[Corbet]

It this project dead/failure? Seems like we haven't had a update in a while

How is the air efficietency compared the pneumag? Thats the biggest drawback for me. I was thinking about making a pneumag but 500 shots on a 88ci 4500 PSI tank doesnt cut it for me.

[nicad]

500 shots???
wow. no.. The hAir triggers we built only used energy equal to about 3 to 4 shots from a 68/4500.. in otherwords, you should not notice an air useage difference.

[Corbet]

500 shots???
wow. no.. The hAir triggers we built only used energy equal to about 3 to 4 shots from a 68/4500.. in otherwords, you should not notice an air useage difference.

hmmmm... I was going through the Pneumatic Trigger Frame thread and someone mentioned it was a gas hog but "isn't a big deal because my field has all day air"

[personman]

hmmmm... I was going through the Pneumatic Trigger Frame thread and someone mentioned it was a gas hog but "isn't a big deal because my field has all day air"
Mags in general are often labled 'gas hogs' even though they really arent that bad on air.
Anyway, if adding a ram made a gun less efficient, cockers would be horrible on air and we know they arent.

[Scott Hudnall]

Sorry for the lack of updates.

Some other major stuff has been happening (outside of paintball....go figure....) so I've had to set the project down for a little while.

It's not dead by any means. just on the workbench at the moment.

:cheers:

[geekwarrior]

Sorry for the lack of updates.

Some other major stuff has been happening (outside of paintball....go figure....) so I've had to set the project down for a little while.

It's not dead by any means. just on the workbench at the moment.

:cheers:


:clap: he lives!

[warbeak2099]

Then why do more people put there Chevy engine into a Ford, if Ford's are ****, they would have bought a Chevy in the first place. :rolleyes: DUH!

Because the Chevy engines perform better and are made with better quality. Not that American automobiles have that great quality in general, but Ford is definitely the worst.

Anyhoo, this mod looks extremely interesting. I am super excited to see how it turns out. As for life getting in the way of fun, I hear ya lol.

[NinjaoftheNight79]

Well, to bring myself into this whole discussion, I would like to say that this idea is amazing. I personally wouldn't do it because I am a battery Nazi (hate batteries on paintball guns) and I would rather either get a normal Pneumag, but that doesn't mean much. I personally don't think this will work by looking at the size pictures. I sure hope you can prove me wrong, for I would love to see that.

As far as the Pneumag goes, obviously it is gonna lower the efficiency by some, but if you look at the pressure differances, you could figure it out. You have 850 psi going into the valve to run the marker (and probably getting regulated to somewhere between 250-450 psi) while the LPR would be regulating out 40-50 psi. Big differance there. I doubt the differance will be that big, maybe somewhere between 20-50 shots on a good 68/4500, but that is just my own estimate.

[nicad]

On a bad day, running about 60psi on the pneumatic trigger, You will burn about 1.5cilb of energy. A 68/45 tank holds 306000cilb of energy.

If you are getting 1200 shots off your mag before, that is burning about 255cilb per shot.
so, 1200*1.5cilb wasted with the pneumatic trigger= 1800cilb used, or about 7 shots less.
This is assuming a really crappy valve/ram setup and a plunger that is moving prolly too far for the sear.


Like I said... 3 to 4, maybe 5 shots fewer on a good setup.

[Bossman]

I always had great efficiency from my Pneumag.....MSV-1, MPA3.

[Hooter42]

quick get this project done so we can see if it works. Was thinking about doing the pnuemag but now maybe this instead. :shooting:

[omegaredghost]

ok im going to take a shot at this thing to. doing it differntly than the previous ways maby. insted of moding the ion noid or useing the vent to power a mpa-3. what im going to try is running the constant air into a smav-3 and the out to a mpa-3 to trip the sear ok. then run the air that drops in and out when the noid is triped/trigger pulled to another mpa-3 that has the vent on it seald. this way it is aired forward until fired. couple the mpa-3 and the smav-3 together so that when air is going to the map-3 it will have closed the air off that is coming into the smav-3 basicly being in wating to shoot . then when you activate the noid/pull the trigger the air going to the mpa-3/smav-3 coupling will vent like it would in a ion. opening the smav-3 and allowing the air to trigger the map-3 at the sear in turn fireing the marker. :tard: ok what do you all think. if i know how to put a drawing on here i would. maby someone can help me with that

[PnueMagger]

wow. that's complex. Good luck.

[craltal]

you lost me in there, but if you email the drawing, i'll post it up for you.

carl.fullerton"at"gmail"dot"com

just replace the quotes...

[Pneumagger]

why do people put silly things in ther email addresses - like spaces/dashes/quotes?

[craltal]

why do people put silly things in ther email addresses - like spaces/dashes/quotes?

so bots can't steal them and end up sending spam...

[craltal]

http://idisk.mac.com/cral/Public/schematic.jpg

[personman]

That's rather impractical.. It would cost alot more, and it takes up more space. Scott's rig seems to be the best option.

I just bought a stock ion board off some guy on PBN and I'm going to fool around with putting it in my Ygrip. I dont know if it will happen but its worth a try :)

[omegaredghost]

thank you craltal for youre help :)

[omegaredghost]

i am try to keep the ion internals working like they should. if they do not work like they should i can always do it scotts way and if that dont work i can do it nicad way and if that dont work then i can make a punnumatic mag all the parts are there.any which way just having fun tinkering thats what it is mostly about for me :) the only worry i have about the previous setups is useing the vent as my way of powering the map-3 as it was not desinged to do such a maner. of corse it wasnt ment to power a mag :rolleyes: . my board is on its way and soon hopefuly my other parts to. the electrian is a nice guy for buying them in bluk for us :headbang:

[blinky1041]

Wow, that is the most complex pneumatic system I've ever seen to accomplish a task so simple. Got a kinda Rube Goldberg thing going on there, thumbs up for ingenuity. If you try to do this, you'll have to change your air lines a bit. Just switch the input to the noid with the line that is attached to the mpa-3. Air enters the top of the noid at one of the metal barbs and is directed out the other metal barb and the smaller plastic barb on the side. When the trigger is pulled, the metal output will still be pressurized and the plastic barb will vent through the bottom. I'm gearing up to try this on my own, but I'm planning on using modified cocker ram mounted on the vertical asa to trip the sear. Can't wait to hear what people ask when they see that and an lpr stuck to the front of a single tube marker!

[omegaredghost]

my way is crap. i just got my board the other day and after tearing it apart it dose not work the way that i though so my way is crap. so i did it like nicad did it. works super nice easy to do. you just need a drill press set at the lowest speed a metal file not to corse and some time do take youre time. work the file back and forth with the drill press running of corse and it will slowly work it down. no lathe needed nothing special. i did turn both the stem of the T down as well as the rod on the inside. also just a helpful hint after you have drilled and taped the vent you are going to need some spacers bettwen the air nipple and the base of the vent. if it is in to far it will shut off all the air because you smushed the rod bettwen the T and the air fitting. hope this helps you all :)

[Pronby]

What happend next? Is the project dead now? Or is the Scott Tha Man just recharging his batteries?
After reading to page five or so I was sure as hell to build one myself but when I had read the whole thread I saw that no one has claimed to have build a real working iMag and then I wasn't so sure anymore.

I could still give it a try but I would like to know more about the parts.
What on earth is a MPA3 and what does it do?
What does the other parts do?
Could I also have pictures of all the nessecery parts? with names.
I bought a cheep Ion that I would love to rip apart for this cause.

I've had thoughts of getting an E-Mag but an iMag would be more expensive. But it would also be cooler. :dance:

/Pronby

[personman]

I did it kind of like scott (I think thats his name, i cant remember) and I still havent finished. Its hard to get enough flow out of the exaust port of the ion board. I think I'm going to have to either modify the core or the actual plastic inside the solenoid. I've already bored out the banjo fitting and the exaust port quite a bit. I think the bottleneck is the core.
Then again, something else could be wrong with my whole pneumatic circuit. Anyway I dont have the time to mess with it right now, school's killin' me.

[Pronby]

So it sounds like it's more to do then what Scott and others have done. Too bad. I might have found another way though, but then it's not pneumatic, it's pure electric. But that might be much easier.
Well, whos school does not kill you? :tard:

[Scott Hudnall]

I'm back with the project again. Seriously....it is almost done. I'll post more when it's completed. I haven't found problems with the flow from the ION exhaust port, is sufficient to run the MPA3 even in ramping mode.

Perhaps you are using too small of air nipple/hose to allow for sufficient flow? Can't really say, and at this point I don't recall the size I'm using.

Thanks. In the end, my iMAG will look like an Emag with a 90 degree frame. Someone asked me at the field if it was an angel frame on an emag. hmmm.....funny......it's just the frame in the pictures earlier in this thread. I'm hiding the LPR and 9v in the Emag battery pack.

:cheers:

[FinchMan]

hurrah, I'm glad to see the project finally resumed. :clap:

[Scott Hudnall]

Been working on it tonight, made some excellent progress, in the finishing stages. Hope to have it done in the next few days. The trigger switch activating rod is in place. Very slight pull to activate the switch, obviously, and the Logic frame with the trigger stop makes it easy to adjust the pull without destroying the Ion board's switch. I'm making some changes to the MPA-3 activation of the sear. Gonna review some of the other articles here on AO to see exactly what they did on the MPA-3's. That's the last big step, then it's simply running the air lines to the correct length, keeping them out of the way of the MPA-3 and sear, getting the 9v and LPR into the Emag battery case....no problem there, it's just doing it.

Feels good to take some time to get this project done.

Thanks.

Scott :cheers:

[geekwarrior]

can't wait to see it, glad you were able to free up sometime! welcome back :cheers:

[Scott Hudnall]

I've spent the last 2 evenings either combing the Ace hardware store's nuts and bolts section for riv-nuts or spacers and epoxy, and last night spent time with the dremel, riv-nut (or what ever it's called), MPA-3, epoxy, etc etc, making the parts and putting it back together. I took photos so anyone will be able to easily follow this step.

I had to find the instructions on an old pneumag thread, by Phishphen. His links to photos were down, but I found a link in the thread where someone hosted his photos for him, can still get to them. Hopefully my photos will be a little easier to follow. but then again..... :rolleyes:

It WILL be done this weekend, if not today. I will post the above pics later and pics of the finished product, including final pics of inside the grip, the LPR and 9V placement, etc. I can't promise video at this point, but will try to find someone to take video of it, edit it down and post it for me. I don't have a video camera that works.

I also have the option, because of the various parts I have laying around, of building it using the Emag rail/battery pack, or using the standard AM/MM rail and having the LPR coming out of the vert adapter (like the electricians'....see his thread). The Emag battery pack would allow me to hide the LPR and 9v easily. the AM/MM set up would mean having to do more dremel work to the frame to accomodate the 9v. It will fit, and could have fit easily without more work if I had taken better care of the placement of the ION board/solenoid inside the frame. Oh well. in the end it should all work fine, either way. I just kind of like the lower profile of the standard AM/MM vs the Emag set up. The AM/MM has more of an understated old skool look.

:cheers:

[Scott Hudnall]

BTW - I'm wondering if Nicad's offer still stands....the one about getting a free DW shirt for the first person to finish the iMag.

Scott :cheers:

[Scott Hudnall]

Okay....this is s #&^%$'n set back.

I had the iMag running in a mock-up configuration to make sure it was all working properly.

You know, the mock up, where the air lines are all over the place, not cut to the final correct length or very tidy looking.

One of the battery leads (the red one) broke off the board. I bought this board used, and it looks like it had been repaired before. At any rate, in my careful attempt to resolder the red battery connection the board stopped working. I had it soldered on there, the board would come on, but would not operate the solenoid. Then....in trying to fix it again, the solder spot broke off the board at the base of the large capacitor.

I'm ordering a new Ion board. Will resume the iMag once it's in.

Disappointing for me at this point, considering it's in the final stage.

Scott

but cheers anyway.... :cheers:

[afortuna]

Get a T-board! The SP boards are known for soldering problems and specifically battery connection issues at the board. Best of luck. You've definitely got me in interested in this one.


Okay....this is s #&^%$'n set back.

I had the iMag running in a mock-up configuration to make sure it was all working properly.

You know, the mock up, where the air lines are all over the place, not cut to the final correct length or very tidy looking.

One of the battery leads (the red one) broke off the board. I bought this board used, and it looks like it had been repaired before. At any rate, in my careful attempt to resolder the red battery connection the board stopped working. I had it soldered on there, the board would come on, but would not operate the solenoid. Then....in trying to fix it again, the solder spot broke off the board at the base of the large capacitor.

I'm ordering a new Ion board. Will resume the iMag once it's in.

Disappointing for me at this point, considering it's in the final stage.

Scott

but cheers anyway.... :cheers:

[FinchMan]

yeah, now's your chance to upgrade boards. ;)

I'd go with a lucky board:
http://www.buyluckypaintball.com/servlet/Detail?no=194

although the T-board is cheaper:
http://scenariodreams.com/productpages/iontboard.htm

but if your going for cheap, you might as well get another used stock board.

[afortuna]

I don't know much about the Lucky Board, but for the money, the T-board is worth it. Virtue is way too expensive. There is a new Predator board out and an APE board out as well.


yeah, now's your chance to upgrade boards. ;)

I'd go with a lucky board:
http://www.buyluckypaintball.com/servlet/Detail?no=194

although the T-board is cheaper:
http://scenariodreams.com/productpages/iontboard.htm

but if your going for cheap, you might as well get another used stock board.

[Scott Hudnall]

stil looking for the board, hope to get one like new and cheap.

BTW...did you notice......11,900 views of this thread???? Holy Cow!!!!

Scott

[nicad]

BTW - I'm wondering if Nicad's offer still stands....the one about getting a free DW shirt for the first person to finish the iMag.

Scott :cheers:
Yes.. yes it does. And I believe you have done it. :)

When you were first describing your design, I don't think I understood what you were going for.. a "constant bleed" system, or well, while activated. Where is the bleed hole physically located?

[omegaredghost]

just want to let you all know if you do it nicads way then you will need to taper the threaded end of the nippel that is going in to the exit port. by doing this you will have a more luck trying to seal the rest of the system from the in comeing air. if you dont you will have air leaking by it also i am really close to haveing mine done just wating on hpa from my local paintball shop

[Scott Hudnall]

Yes.. yes it does. And I believe you have done it. :)

When you were first describing your design, I don't think I understood what you were going for.. a "constant bleed" system, or well, while activated. Where is the bleed hole physically located?


see the pic I posted a while back. The red cap on the T fitting in the line has a small hole in it. Seems to allow enough pressure past it (straight through the T), and then on the blow back/depressure it vents nicely. Next question, then, is what psi am I running off the LPR. answer...i have no idea.

I tried a version with a QEV in the line, but it didn't bleed well at all. Maybe the QEV I have, which is new from clippard, is bad, stuck etc.

At any rate.....I would like to say mine is "done" but it's not finished yet due to this wire/solder/board problem. I am still in search of a board for the right price. watching ebay and everywhere else. Might just pony up the $$ for a Tboard and get it over with. It does work, though, but cramming it all in the frame with properly trimmed hoses, etc, is not finished.

You know, this really is not that complicated since the Ion board is all self contained. I honestly think you could get this done is a few days, or evenings, work, if you had the proper tools, parts, etc, all at your disposal. Maybe a guy like Nicad could get it done in a few hours. I do NOT have all the proper tools and relied on various drills, dremels, etc, to get it fitted. Without the grips on....it's not real pretty.

:cheers:

Hey omegaredghost - looking forward to seeing video of your grip, insides, and firing. Like in my previous post....I'm hoping to get that done once the project is fully complete. Very cool to take up the project, Omega R G.

This would be awesome for a simple iMag project for the masses: being able to buy an automag grip frame that's cut to accept an ION board, MPA3, and 9v, complete with a trigger rod to activate the switch. Plus, a verticle adapter to mount a LPR on the front of the gun. That would be nice. I wish I knew about manufacturing etc and the metal trades.

Scott

[nicad]

OK, my next question was if you had tried a QEV. It would need to be placed between the vent and the ram. Most QEV's will trigger with aprox 5 psi shift-- I would think that if the vent is enough to allow the ram to return at a decent speed, it should be enough to trigger a QEV.. hmmm.

But then again, if it is working fine without a QEV, Why mess with it!? :)
(A QEV would, however, allow the system to work more efficiently and at an overall lower pressure.)

[FinchMan]

...

This would be awesome for a simple iMag project for the masses: being able to buy an automag grip frame that's cut to accept an ION board, MPA3, and 9v, complete with a trigger rod to activate the switch. Plus, a verticle adapter to mount a LPR on the front of the gun. That would be nice. I wish I knew about manufacturing etc and the metal trades.

Scott

Heh, if you're going to make a custom frame and vert asa, ya might as well encorperate the rail. :cool:

I look forward to seeing pictures/videos of completed iMags.

[Scott Hudnall]

OK, my next question was if you had tried a QEV. It would need to be placed between the vent and the ram. Most QEV's will trigger with aprox 5 psi shift-- I would think that if the vent is enough to allow the ram to return at a decent speed, it should be enough to trigger a QEV.. hmmm.

But then again, if it is working fine without a QEV, Why mess with it!? :)
(A QEV would, however, allow the system to work more efficiently and at an overall lower pressure.)


when I mock the system back up after the new board gets in, I'll give it another try with the QEV.

Thanks nicad.


Scott :cheers:

[omegaredghost]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k303/omegaredghost/100_1027.jpghttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k303/omegaredghost/100_1029.jpg http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k303/omegaredghost/100_1028.jpg http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k303/omegaredghost/100_1025.jpg http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k303/omegaredghost/100_1029.jpg here are some pics of the proggres im making just about done i hope :D

[FinchMan]

wow, nice pictures. How does it look with the grip covering it all up?

[chip08]

Do you have a QEV running before the actuator?

[omegaredghost]

i have not coverd it with the grips as they will have to be hollowed out on the inside and yes the qev is mounted on the actuator tight fit but you can see it the first pic

[Scott Hudnall]

VERY NICE placement of the board and parts!!! nice job on the frame, my friend!!! and you even got the 9v in the frame, too. nice work, O!

[Scott Hudnall]

I've got a new ION board on it's way.

[havocx]

Lets get some vids up of a functioning imag, im vary interested in how it will work out. Besides Nicad said there is a DW shirt in it for the guy who completes it first

[Scott Hudnall]

got the new board/noid in. will have it done within a day or two.

Scott

[Scott Hudnall]

Worked on it today. Want to play with it Sunday. doing final install parts in the frame, hope to be fully complete Saturday 10/21.

and Omegared - once it's going and working right, I'll have the plunger for you. PM me about it. and i wish I had a millling machine like you. I'm jealous.

Thanks.

[spectre184]

Scott I'll bring camera and get some pics. Maybe small video. Though you or someone else host as I can't access FTP server I use :(

Actually not sure how good video is with my digital camera. tried on ein Okinawa and it didnt turn out well.

And did find a loaner mask :clap:

*edit*

I just created a putfile.com account. My camera records video in 320x240. I'm going to test it to see how good quality that is.

*edit again* My camera doesn't support sound :mad:

[Scott Hudnall]

My friends -

the iMag lives!!!!!

It's assembled and working beautifully.

I'll post more later about the different 'mag parts and aftermarket parts I'm using on it. It's an interesting compilation.

A few things at this point. I was using a "Reactor Valve" as the on/off. I had problems with the valve resetting, so I switched it out and put in a stock AM/MM on/off....works without a hitch.

The 9v battery - this is where I just want to kick myself. My placement of the ION board in the Logic frame was pretty poor. Yes, it works, but it could have been placed much better to allow for a 9v battery in the frame. So, I bought a Emag battery pack (and rail) to use, to place the LPR and 9v in the Emag battery pack. Nice hiding place, eh? Turns out that with the additional fittings needed for the LPR, I can't get the 9v in the battery pack at this time. I can fit it if I dremel it out a bit. We'll see how I decide to go on the 9v placement. At this time, I'm running wires out of the grip and putting the 9v under my tank cover. Doesn't look horribly bad......who am I kidding....yes it does. But I want to use it tomorrow and so the 9v will be ugly for now.

I'll post pics later of the grip, etc. It really came out cleaner looking inside than I thought it would.

Is there a 9v power source that is smaller than a standard 9v battery? any one know? I can "almost" fit the 9v in the frame. Wish I had paid more attention to the board placement.

testimony on the iMag will come from other AO users who will be at the field Sunday here in Central Indiana - Gator Joe's paintball.

Yes, it does work fine in ramping mode.

but it's still incredibly fast in semi-auto, walkable with little effort.

Thanks. Will post finished pics later. On the outside, it looks like an Emag with a verticle 90 Logic frame. insides, it's the iMag conversion.

Scott :cheers:

[pump]

12 volt battery
http://www.circuitcity.com/IMAGE/product/detail/dur/EC.DUR.MN21BPK.JPG

[don miguel]

If you get it to work, you should make a video of it shooting, if it works, I might try it.

[warbeak2099]

If you get it to work, you should make a video of it shooting, if it works, I might try it.

I doubt you have the ability or the intellect to perform anything technical. :rofl:

[Scott Hudnall]

No video tonight.

Played several games of rec with my kid and friends at the field today. had a great time, but used one of my old skool mags and a shoebox shocker.

towards the end of the day, broke out the iMag. fired several at the chrono/target range. no problem. then started having problems with the bolt not resetting fully. Not sure the issues, here, so I'm going to try a few options with the power tube spacer, main spring, and try a different bolt. Also, have an old skool on/off which I'm gonna switch out, even older than the one I replaced the "reactor" on/off with.

I was surprised that several peeps at the field, some of my old skool buddies, had heard about the iMag project already. kind of interesting to know that.

Okay, back to tweaking this thing a bit more. Will have time in the next few days.

:cheers:

[gotboostedvr6]

keep us informed of any updates.... o_O

[Scott Hudnall]

Okay, have resolved the problem with the bolt. Increased the LPR pressure slightly and the whole system was working exceptionally well.

Now....and this isn't good news for me at all....I've developed a small leak in the solenoid which is driving me absolutely mad. This is also, seemingly, causing the whole board/solenoid to not function properly.

I'm at my wits end.

I've got to get away from this project for a few days. :mad:

[Zneaky]

Scott,

When I get mad at a part, I just buy another one. $35 will buy you a lot of peace and a new ion board.

Example: Earlier this week I was getting my gun ready for play next week. I did the whole pnue-mag thing, It kept leaking somewhere around the bolt or on/off. So after disassemble and re-assemble 12 times I took my ULT out and put in my old on/off. Leak stopped. Turned up my LPR, ordered a new ULT and will play this week with a little heavier pull.

For me, if it's under $50, it's just easier to replace.

Thanks again for being a Automag pioneer; and inventing new thing that the rest of us can see, dream about, and copy. Guys like you make all the players at our local fields wonder "Was that a mag, a cocker, or an ion?"

I love it,

Z

[Scott Hudnall]

Thanks Z. I appreciate the encouragement.

if I can't get the crappy stock ION board leak figured out, then if I pursue another board (this would be board #3 for this same project) it won't be a SP stock board. Would likely be one of the aftermarket boards. The stock board and solenoid is just too stinkin' fragile, easy to break, battery wires break, etc.

Meanwhile, another AO member, Omegared, is almost finished with his iMag.

I'm sure there's others who are giving it consideration. My recommendation at this time would be to NOT use a stock ION board. How many peeps want to jump in and say "I told ya so????"

Meanwhile, undoubtedly, the iMag is proven to work. It really is no different in concept than the electro-pneumatic 'mag that "the electrician" built, except that the ION board comes as a complete set up, although bulky, and you are required to re-route the air through one of the two methods shown on this thread (** cough cough ** mine is easiest *** cough cough**).

I'm weighing my options on the project. I've already got a modest amount of $$ sunk into this project. Not $$ like a new shocker or Emag, but enough to make me want to consider whether I should "invest" $100 in another board.

Dang, it is fun to tinker with this project, though. Maybe I can put a few items on the "for sale" forum or ebay and raise the dough.

cheers. :cheers:

[afortuna]

(** cough cough ** T-Board *** cough cough**).

Keep up the good work. I only wish I had the time and probably more importantly the money to be able to do what you have with a mag.

:dance:



Thanks Z. I appreciate the encouragement.

if I can't get the crappy stock ION board leak figured out, then if I pursue another board (this would be board #3 for this same project) it won't be a SP stock board. Would likely be one of the aftermarket boards. The stock board and solenoid is just too stinkin' fragile, easy to break, battery wires break, etc.

Meanwhile, another AO member, Omegared, is almost finished with his iMag.

I'm sure there's others who are giving it consideration. My recommendation at this time would be to NOT use a stock ION board. How many peeps want to jump in and say "I told ya so????"

Meanwhile, undoubtedly, the iMag is proven to work. It really is no different in concept than the electro-pneumatic 'mag that "the electrician" built, except that the ION board comes as a complete set up, although bulky, and you are required to re-route the air through one of the two methods shown on this thread (** cough cough ** mine is easiest *** cough cough**).

I'm weighing my options on the project. I've already got a modest amount of $$ sunk into this project. Not $$ like a new shocker or Emag, but enough to make me want to consider whether I should "invest" $100 in another board.

Dang, it is fun to tinker with this project, though. Maybe I can put a few items on the "for sale" forum or ebay and raise the dough.

cheers. :cheers:

[BigEvil]

Scott,

Your solenoid leak may be a result of too high of an input pressure into it. The noid I used on my Evilmag does the same thing. Some of them cannot handle the pressure needed to trip a non-ult on/off. Yes, I hear that the Smart Part ION noid is very fragile. I have successfully used a ULT in a classic valve for a spydermag application. It will work just fine, but you will not be able to get the uber rates of fire like with the Xvalve, since the AIR valve just cannot push the little ULT back fast enough.


Hope this helped.

[pump]

hey why not a spitfire board...it uses a mac niod

[FinchMan]

hey why not a spitfire board...it uses a mac niod

I think his mod kinda relys on modifying the stock solinoid.

[ghostdog2019]

Lucky Paintball does a complete noid and board replacement for the ion. They run $99.00 but it would probably be more durable then the stock ion board and noid.

-Mike

[pump]

Lucky Paintball does a complete noid and board replacement for the ion. They run $99.00 but it would probably be more durable then the stock ion board and noid.

-Mike
yeah the
spitfire board uses a mac niod

[havocx]

update Scott? video?

[Scott Hudnall]

No update as of today.

I have heard from several AO members, though, who are in the final stages of finishing their iMag. One enterprising AO member even disassembled parts from the ION board to fit it in his frame. I can't wait to see that one. I'll encourage them to post pics.

:cheers:

[armyboot]

Any updates?

[Zneaky]

Any updates?

I am the "brain surgeon" who has disassemble the ion board and wired all the pieces so I can place them where I want, and get the battery in the trigger frame. I started with melting on/off switches (board #1). Then I melted little black boxes on the board (board #2). On Board #3, I got everythinthing to work, then got everything in the frame, and the gun did fire in ramping mode, then went to put the triger switch in and a wire came off, in putting that wire back on, I fried board number 3. I have 2 more boards coming, and one virture board, that will stay in it's box until I get really good at this.

So this week, I wanted to play, so I installed one of the tringger switches into my pneumag and used the solenoid to activate the mpa-3. It is a simple circuit creating a semi-auto electronic, but it is so light, it blows the plain pneumag out of the water. I can walk it very easily, and I am the worse walker. Some time after Jan 8th, I will begin board number 4 and hopefully, with all these parts in place, I should be able to do it without any burning more boards.

Z

[armyboot]

What kind of solenoid would you reccomend using?

I was searching the WAS website and noticed they had viking boards for 20 dollars! I'd probably buy their switch while I was at it. Also, would you need anything other than board, solenoid, and the trigger switch?

Also, anyone have pictures as to how they mounted the switch?

[Zneaky]

I mounted my switch (on UMF) behind the MPA-3. Where the trigger rod would normally come through. I used the solinoid that came with the Ion board. The ion also uses a capacitor. I don't know if you need one with the was board or not. Hope that helps.

Z

[armyboot]

Zneaky, I'll be sending you some pms!

[personman]

my ionmag is coming along. i started it about a year and a half ago and then lost interest. i looked at it yesterday and realized how close i was so i started working on it. I've got it firing now, i just need to work on mounting stuff and minor details and i'll have a gun that flys

and no im not going to post how i did it, im just going to tell you it was a pain in the ***. i dont have the time to write down every single thing that i did lol
here is a pic of the gun as i was testing it with just putting finger pressure on the sear, and shortly after that i took the following video. the mag was getting starved because of the triple regging but unfortunately thats the only way i can get gas to both the gun and the lpr at the moment.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/7488/ionmag003largecb5.jpg

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CFblG4hHrWc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CFblG4hHrWc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

i havent looked at anyone elses ionmag yet, but i probably went about things a different way.. probably the hard way, too :(

[magpump]

wow i would love to see one of these shooting!

[flatspunout]

yeah me too...Scott did you axe the project?? I just read the entire thread start to finish and yet I have no closure! I'm suddenly having second thoughts about trading my old skool minimag...ironically enough I traded it for HPA to go on my ION :p

-rocky b

[Zneaky]

If you wanna see one shoot, check out my thread, I have a video.

I also have a detailed description with pictures. It is in the Word Doc.

Z

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211873