The ART of wiping

[punkncat]

Went to play yesterday at a field that is very popular with the "tourney" crowd of players. Its a really nice field, spectacular both on the playing end and the pro shop. Just happened to be a tryout going on yesterday so the crowd was heavy in recruits trying to show what they had.

We came as a large group for open play. We had neglected to specify that we were more interested in playing as a private party. So in betweeen games we took the time to watch some of the other teams practice and try out.

As we watched the players game I started noticing how really artful some of these methods of wiping have become. It was quite amazing. These guys would get hit w/o flinching, w/o looking and just casually rub the ground, bunker, whatever they could to get the hit to look like a rub. As a ref you would have had to been watching that player at the exact moment they were hit to know. This end of the game truly is becoming an art, not only in the training to learn to move and shoot like that, but also to so flawlessly cheat.

[warbeak2099]

Yep, I remember talking with the captain of Sonic Rage a while ago (don't know if they still even exist), and he was telling me about their practice techniques. They actually practiced not flinching when hit so the ref wouldn't be able to tell.

[chemical x]

Yesterday just before a group began to play one of the guys started smearing paint all over himself, rubbing up against walls and barracades ( anything with paint on it ). Later in the day I would see him rub on bunkers occasionaly.

The paint he smeared on himself I believe was to be able to help him wipe off a hit. Next time he comes to play I will tell him that if I so much as see him rub a bunker or have paint smeared on himself he cannot play until he has decent clothes on.

[shartley]

It goes to show that “winning” is more important than “being good” or having any real playing skills. When you have to wipe to win, you really LOST and are a loser in my book… no exceptions. Cheating is not a "skill" it is the sign of low moral character.

[chemical x]

It goes to show that “winning” is more important than “being good” or having any real playing skills. When you have to wipe to win, you really LOST and are a loser in my book… no exceptions. Cheating is not a "skill" it is the sign of low moral character.

Sam at my field I am going to put up statements similar to this in the lobby. Do you mind if I put this along with it?

[cioeboy]

thats why i watch people after i hit them

[punkncat]

The end of last season I was practicing and playing with many teams, but during a game its impossible to really watch what they are doing. Its easy to suspect you hit a player, harder to prove from the other end of the field.

[shartley]

Sam at my field I am going to put up statements similar to this in the lobby. Do you mind if I put this along with it?
By all means feel free.

[bleachit]

The end of last season I was practicing and playing with many teams, but during a game its impossible to really watch what they are doing. Its easy to suspect you hit a player, harder to prove from the other end of the field.


when you consistently see your paint fly at someone then dissappear, then watch them slip behind a bunker.. its usually a pretty good indication that something's up.. at least from my limited experience.... meh.

[punkncat]

It goes to show that “winning” is more important than “being good” or having any real playing skills. When you have to wipe to win, you really LOST and are a loser in my book… no exceptions. Cheating is not a "skill" it is the sign of low moral character.


You know Shartley...I completly agree with you. I was asked to be captain of the B team for the guys I was practicing with. I asked them if it was going to be better to loose playing fair, and be good sports about it, or to win by cheating.

Its unfortunate that most of the better teams are successful because they are good cheaters and are rewarded for thier ability to be so. It really sucks that your book isn't the one they all go by.... :eek:

[shartley]

You know Shart...I completly agree with you. I was asked to be captain of the B team for the guys I was practicing with. I asked them if it was going to be better to loose playing fair, and be good sports about it, or to win by cheating.

Its unfortunate that most of the better teams are successful because they are good cheaters and are rewarded for thier ability to be so. It really sucks that your book isn't the one they all go by.... :eek:
I fully understand. And until they make cheating (not just violating rules, which can happen and not be cheating) really detrimental to the teams it will continue to become something they “practice” for.

It is another reason I will never play tournaments. I also limit my organized field play as well, and prefer to play on my own private field. I play at organized fields for the other aspects of the game, such as camaraderie, similar interests, and socializing. The game is what brings us together, not the only reason I am there. And being a good player is more important to me than winning an award, deserved or otherwise.

Another of my paintball philosophies is, “Those who leave the field having had the most fun, wins!”

But yes, back on topic… don’t show me your skills in cheating, show me your skills in PLAYING. :headbang:

[LudavicoSoldier]

It goes to show that “winning” is more important than “being good” or having any real playing skills. When you have to wipe to win, you really LOST and are a loser in my book… no exceptions. Cheating is not a "skill" it is the sign of low moral character.

Just goes to show that the youth today are generally not exemplars of "high moral character" by any means. I work at a high school, I know these things. :D

[Dark Side]

It goes to show that “winning” is more important than “being good” or having any real playing skills. When you have to wipe to win, you really LOST and are a loser in my book… no exceptions. Cheating is not a "skill" it is the sign of low moral character.


A true sign of a lack of Honor.

[latches109]

hey, now it makes sense. I hit a guy in the shoulder a few times (watched them break) and he never went out. After the game I confronted him and he only had old bunker paint on him. What a cheater. Later I heard he got caught ramping on beginner walk-ons. What a douche bag.

[Rudz]

i was at sc yesterday and some guy got goggled, every one on the sidelines saw it, and the guy who hit him saw it...but the guy ducked behind a bunker and came up clean, it was rediculous, but i have to say for the most part every 1 played fair, i even called my self out a time or two for bounces i thought were hits...didnt notice untill i was already on the sidelines...doh!!!!

[warbeak2099]

Just goes to show that the youth today are generally not exemplars of "high moral character" by any means. I work at a high school, I know these things. :D

I agree. I think everyone can agree that the current system employed bu school systems is just not working. Psychologists have been pushing for better systems that have been proven based on empirical testing. But oh no, they don't make the decisions. Ignorant politicians and administrators totally ignore them and employ their own methods that are absolutely ludicrous and further detract from the intelligence and character of kids. It's a shame. Widespread cheating and poor sportsmanship is just one result of this.

[snoopay700]

Went to play yesterday at a field that is very popular with the "tourney" crowd of players. Its a really nice field, spectacular both on the playing end and the pro shop. Just happened to be a tryout going on yesterday so the crowd was heavy in recruits trying to show what they had.

We came as a large group for open play. We had neglected to specify that we were more interested in playing as a private party. So in betweeen games we took the time to watch some of the other teams practice and try out.

As we watched the players game I started noticing how really artful some of these methods of wiping have become. It was quite amazing. These guys would get hit w/o flinching, w/o looking and just casually rub the ground, bunker, whatever they could to get the hit to look like a rub. As a ref you would have had to been watching that player at the exact moment they were hit to know. This end of the game truly is becoming an art, not only in the training to learn to move and shoot like that, but also to so flawlessly cheat.
It's not an art, anyone who is tolerant to pain can do this, and whenever i get hit for the most part you can't even tell from my reaction, but you can tell when i go out. I can't tell you how many times i've gotten hit and could've just wiped and no one would've known, but i decide to be honest and just go out rather than cheat, because i see no point in winning that way because you're only cheating yourself. Also, i've had people swear they hit and and luckily they bounced, which i am really thankful for unless it's on a really tender part, like the lower back.

[ThePixelGuru]

There are some players who are _extremely_ good at wiping, yeah. I've heard conversations at the field where people argue that wiping is a skill, and therefore is just another part of the game. Hell, I've seen gloves for sale that have little squeegees on the side.

I think wiping makes paintball more dangerous, though. People tend to overshoot if they expect their targets to wipe, since it's tougher to wipe three hits than one.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

play fair = lose
cheat = win
play fair = better game for everyone, less balls getting put into you
cheat = fustrating game usually ending in arguements and fights. thus to make sure you are hit and that you get out you would have about 5 balls get shot into you instead of the usual 1-3 that you would get
play fair = some players wish they could
cheat = some players wish they wouldn't

and hey guess what, no one is doing a darn thing to promote fair play or frown upon(sp) cheating to the masses because they simply won't listen :)

[Recon by Fire]

This is the only wiping you should be doing.
http://www-ucdmag.ucdavis.edu/fall03/graphics/toiletpaper.jpg

[Troen]

This is the only wiping you should be doing.
http://www-ucdmag.ucdavis.edu/fall03/graphics/toiletpaper.jpg
ha, poop.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I was given a copy of PB2X for christmas this year, I don't usually read Paintball mag's cause I'm not interested in 50 pages of spyders and tippmans, but this one was pretty good.

The one thing I didn't really like about it was this one article, the premise of the article was "how to spot cheaters" it obviously was for refs. Except that in the description of each technique there was a lengthy "how to" for the player. Does this kind of article in a magazine encourage the behaviour, or is it just a way to even the playing field?

Either way I think it stinks.

I wiped once, and my conscience hit me so hard afterwards I didn't play for months. I can't imagine how people can do it on a regualr basis as a part of their game.

[Robbie]

i love cheaters. It makes my day so much more interesting.
There is no substitute for practice! If you can hit a 1'X1" box from across the field just snap shooting or running and shooting you dont have to cheat.
You may be able to wipe 1 or 2 but 30 good luck ...all education has a price
Cheating is not just in speedball anymore i have been all over the country for different scenario games and let me tell you they cheat there too. They just suck at it ...they flinch...they fall back to make it seem like they are walking out and than get right back in.
bahaa
I do think the kids attitudes are different
I just took a Dyansty Training clinic for speed ball and instead of trying to listen and make changes to get better some of them said they would rather just cheat.
I guess its too much work to get better.

[SlartyBartFast]

I fully understand. And until they make cheating (not just violating rules, which can happen and not be cheating) really detrimental to the teams it will continue to become something they “practice” for.

QFT.

Tournaments need to allow video to be submitted after a game. If it shows cheating, HUGE penalties should be imposed. Wworse than if it had been caught by a ref on field, say the loss of half the total point possible in a game, heck why not make it the loss of their best game in the tournament.

If the video doesn't show a wipe in the opinion of the officials, apply a penalty against the team presenting the video (but not quite as draconian as the penalty for cheating).

One or two teams losing a tournament to hidden camera footage and you can be sure that the vast majority of players would clean up their act real quick.

[oneshot]

exact reason why its good to bonus ball peeps every now and again.

[Lohman446]

QFT.

Tournaments need to allow video to be submitted after a game. If it shows cheating, HUGE penalties should be imposed. Wworse than if it had been caught by a ref on field, say the loss of half the total point possible in a game, heck why not make it the loss of their best game in the tournament.

If the video doesn't show a wipe in the opinion of the officials, apply a penalty against the team presenting the video (but not quite as draconian as the penalty for cheating).

One or two teams losing a tournament to hidden camera footage and you can be sure that the vast majority of players would clean up their act real quick.

Name one sport that after the game is over goes back and changes even bad calls of officials. Even if cheating, or a blatant bad call is present.

[chairman_mao]

Name one sport that after the game is over goes back and changes even bad calls of officials. Even if cheating, or a blatant bad call is present.
Soccer. The English FA (governing body of English Football) consitantly goes back and allows apeals on red cards as well as issues bans and fines for tackles and incidents that may not have incured any call during the normal run of play.

[Lohman446]

Soccer. The English FA (governing body of English Football) consitantly goes back and allows apeals on red cards as well as issues bans and fines for tackles and incidents that may not have incured any call during the normal run of play.

Good call on the fines, which are issued in several sports and could well be done, as well as suspensions. Perhaps even future penalties (imagine starting the next tournament down a player, or less points). But could we really make it doable to go back and change the outcome of the game?

[LudavicoSoldier]

It doesnt seem that anyone has the balls to ACTIVELY enforce rules. It's easier to just dismiss and ignore, meanwhile lining your pockets, than to rock the boat with individuals, teams, or sponsors. :ninja:

[snoopay700]

See, that's why if i own a field i'm gonna ref and have my gun on me, then if i see a kid wiping and staying in, i won't call him out, i'll light him up, then see how many people cheat at my field. Of course that's way in the future. Oh yeah, if they try to shoot back, they can't play, just make it a rule that if you intentionally shoot at a ref, you're kicked out.

[camilion705]

It doesnt seem that anyone has the balls to ACTIVELY enforce rules. It's easier to just dismiss and ignore, meanwhile lining your pockets, than to rock the boat with individuals, teams, or sponsors. :ninja:

There we have it. Its hard to pull a player for cheating. They throw a fit afterward!

I think the, "challenge flag" would be a great addition. If you could potentially lose a game/tourny after its all played because you wiped, would you do it? Probably not.

However, how do you know if there is video coverage of the player who wiped? How do you make sure every player has a camera on him? Thats expensive...

[mag88888]

The worst kind of whiping is the blatant wide open technique where kids dont even hide it. Ya know, when you hit them 5 or 6 times and they just out in the open whipe it off in the open, and then they dont get called out. This happens ALL the time at my field. I was playing with some walkons and some tourney gusy came, maybe 20-25. They were wearing a full DYE attire and had shockers w/ halo b's and nice hpa tanks. And they used at least 3 pods a game. And this is ina walk on game. So i saw them adn took them more seriously than most players. I ran all out off the break to the far right to put a stream across the field. After i slid into my bunker I popped up and started streaming paint with my mag. Well one of those tourney guys just happens to run right though my stream and I'd say I hit him at least 6 times since I could see them exploding all over him. All around his gun, head and shoulders, chest. So I'm thinking I got him out, I look somewhere else and then look back at that same bunker. The guy whipes everything and pops back up and starts shooting at me. The worst part was I could actually see him whiping. I couldnt beliee it so I figured it would be harder. After it was clear of flying paint, I darted to the bunker in front of his and emptied 25 balls on the edges of his bunker as I was pretty pissed. He came out with paint all over his shins/knees, not to mention his upper body. This is not stereo typing tourney players since the other toureny guy who came with said cheater complimented me after the game in the staging area. And also, I'm in the process of getting a half price paint sponsor for my 3 man team, and finding tournies to compete in. Oh and yes, all of you are probably thinking, "where were the refs?" I was yelling across teh field for them, either they didnt hear me or didnt care. Im thinking they didnt care cauuse it was so open.

[warbeak2099]

See, that's why if i own a field i'm gonna ref and have my gun on me, then if i see a kid wiping and staying in, i won't call him out, i'll light him up, then see how many people cheat at my field. Of course that's way in the future. Oh yeah, if they try to shoot back, they can't play, just make it a rule that if you intentionally shoot at a ref, you're kicked out.

Back when Pro was still open, Buddy Bauer was running the field. Before he went over to NVP obviously. Anyways, he spotted a kid wiping, picked up his boxxer freeflow, poked it through the netting, and started shooting him. That's the one time I've seen Buddy being cool. Most other times he's a real d-bag. But yeah, that gets rid of the idiots prety quick.

[snoopay700]

Back when Pro was still open, Buddy Bauer was running the field. Before he went over to NVP obviously. Anyways, he spotted a kid wiping, picked up his boxxer freeflow, poked it through the netting, and started shooting him. That's the one time I've seen Buddy being cool. Most other times he's a real d-bag. But yeah, that gets rid of the idiots prety quick.
Exactly man, i figure if the REFS have guns and light up wipers, it'll stop really fast at the field.

[mag88888]

Over at my lcal field, i guess the refs can be cool. There was a kid cheating all day long there, with an angle and all dye clothes and stuff. After the refs got tired of it tehy lit him up. I was walking through thw oods and heard somone behind me. It was the ref with his angel. He just motioned to me to be quiet. I was freaked out and scared he was gonna light me up but i kept quiet. Then out of nowhere he fires liek 20 shots onto this kid. He yelled, "your out!", teh kid responded, with questions trying to avoid it. "get off teh field, your out!" teh ref aid. after the kid ws off teh field, they warned him again, and he stopped for the most part.

[punkncat]

Over at my lcal field, i guess the refs can be cool. There was a kid cheating all day long there, with an angle and all dye clothes and stuff. After the refs got tired of it tehy lit him up. I was walking through thw oods and heard somone behind me. It was the ref with his angel. He just motioned to me to be quiet. I was freaked out and scared he was gonna light me up but i kept quiet. Then out of nowhere he fires liek 20 shots onto this kid. He yelled, "your out!", teh kid responded, with questions trying to avoid it. "get off teh field, your out!" teh ref aid. after the kid ws off teh field, they warned him again, and he stopped for the most part.


Just WOW!!!

I hope I never see that.

[snoopay700]

Just WOW!!!

I hope I never see that.
Basically when i own a field (and it will happen, i will make it so) don't cheat at it then, otherwise it will happen to you, or if someone cheats you WILL see it happen.

[Rudz]

can i be a ref on snoops feild???, are refs allowed to ramp on rampers and wipers??[FONT=Arial]

[snoopay700]

can i be a ref on snoops feild???, are refs allowed to ramp on rampers and wipers??[FONT=Arial]
Haha, sure, when i own one, won't be for a good while with my college plans, but yeah, i will own one and they won't cheat. ;)

[Rudz]

Haha, sure, when i own one, won't be for a good while with my college plans, but yeah, i will own one and they won't cheat. ;)
sweeet, i cant wait, we should have markers mounted up in towers waiting to nail cheaters, it also gives us a better view of the field to find em cheaters.....

[snoopay700]

sweeet, i cant wait, we should have markers mounted up in towers waiting to nail cheaters, it also gives us a better view of the field to find em cheaters.....
Haha, trust me, each ref will be equipped with no less than an rt mag or an emag once i get the money.

[psychowarden]

I was recently at a field that was having tryouts, and I was totally unaware that they were going on. I just wanted to get a little bit of playing in. After the end of the day, the captain of the team (heavily sponsored may I add) asked me to be on the team. He said that during the whole day, I was the only one that didnt wipe and went off every time I got hit. I could have had a new cocker, but I didnt want to use a cocker, I wanted my mag, and I already had my nice little 3 man team, and we have lots of fun. So its possible to get a team because you dont wipe.

[ThePixelGuru]

Haha, trust me, each ref will be equipped with no less than an rt mag or an emag once i get the money.
Overkill. Just give each ref a PGP to tuck into his pocket. Might not light 'em up, but you've got the time to aim well enough to make it really hurt. Say, shoot for the neck. I don't care how sneaky those cheaters are, welts don't wipe off. :D

[anomoly40]

This is a great idea. Our field has a team that refs as a part of their sponsership. Each one of them has a Angel Fly or a Proto Matrix. I'm sure that'll make people think twice about cheating. Ref isn't afraid of getting shot when he isn't playing.

[siloseven]

It doesnt seem that anyone has the balls to ACTIVELY enforce rules. It's easier to just dismiss and ignore, meanwhile lining your pockets, than to rock the boat with individuals, teams, or sponsors. :ninja:

Well said and right on the money. xcuse the pun. there is no compitition, sure you can put teams up agenst each other, but there is no compitition, it is all for the money, and 2 for the show. you know how people say they go to NASCAR for the wrecks... I will not be suprised to hear someone say; "I go to Paintball tourniments to see the fist fights and in-your-face arguments!"

sad sad day.

and they could always do what cops do, let them throw a temper tantrum like a little kid and let him go on and on, and sit there and reck up add on peniltys. like Foul language, every time you curse, -5 points per word. unsprtsman like conduct, -10 points a minute and an additionl -5 points for start up annoyance. -5 points for making no sence. -20 points if you blame someone else. -50 points if the person you blamed didn't do anything. punched in the puss and do some terf diving if you threten someone, then banned. works for me, see how many people complane after a tourni of that.

[Lohman446]

Basically when i own a field (and it will happen, i will make it so) don't cheat at it then, otherwise it will happen to you, or if someone cheats you WILL see it happen.

So... outside the competition of the game your going to have your employees fire a weapon at people in order to punish them by inflicting pain? The intent of firing the marker is not part of the competition of the game, but as physical punishment?

Good plan :rolleyes: Hope you like your cellmate

[SlartyBartFast]

Name one sport that after the game is over goes back and changes even bad calls of officials. Even if cheating, or a blatant bad call is present.
Soccer has been named. All racing sports, motorised and non-motorised, can have the outcome altered by after the event due to testing or equipment inspections.
Many, many sports, have courts and sanctioning bodies that will rules on disqualifications or realocations of points and even awards afer the events in question are over.
Hockey, football, and baseball all have various fines and suspensions that can be imposed on players after games.
Many, if not most, of the faster paced games take timeouts for referees to consult with a video judge. Those that don’t, as well as those that do, have a strong culture of getting rid of refs that repeatedly miss calls or get them wrong.
Paintball already has rules that can make teams lose points off-field after the game is over and possibly cost them the tournament. Hot guns leaving the field, unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, even checking the flag carrier after the flag is hung.
Is that enough sports named for ya? ;p
A hundred point penalty for filmed evidence of wiping would be a good addition IMO.

However, how do you know if there is video coverage of the player who wiped? How do you make sure every player has a camera on him? Thats expensive...
That’s why I proposed that teams can submit the evidence. Think about it. Not only would cheaters know there are cameras about, but they’d know that the camera were in the hands of supporters of their opponents and those with a grudge out to prove they cheat. You could possibly have a camera operator from every eliminated team and the operators from the participating teams at the final game.
But, to limit abuse, that’s why I also proposed that the submitting team be liable for penalties for inconclusive footage.
And to handle the submissions, you just need to have one more judge (or add it to the ultimate judge’s responsibilities) to review footage and a deadline for challenges to be submitted after each round of play.

[Rudz]

So... outside the competition of the game your going to have your employees fire a weapon at people in order to punish them by inflicting pain? The intent of firing the marker is not part of the competition of the game, but as physical punishment?

Good plan :rolleyes: Hope you like your cellmate


oh lohman dont worry it will be stated on the waiver that every 1 signs and never reads...if you are caught cheating ...consequences may include banning, pulled from games, and in the event the player does not comply, a field official may resort to using excessive force...as in shooting you untill u decide to leave the game....any returned fire will be met by extreme physical force to be distrubuted by field staff equipped with behavioral control devices..such as tasers...pepper spray..batons,,boots...and paintball markers...

[Lohman446]

That’s why I proposed that teams can submit the evidence. Think about it. Not only would cheaters know there are cameras about, but they’d know that the camera were in the hands of supporters of their opponents and those with a grudge out to prove they cheat. You could possibly have a camera operator from every eliminated team and the operators from the participating teams at the final game.
But, to limit abuse, that’s why I also proposed that the submitting team be liable for penalties for inconclusive footage.
And to handle the submissions, you just need to have one more judge (or add it to the ultimate judge’s responsibilities) to review footage and a deadline for challenges to be submitted after each round of play.

You surely found the sports :). That being said, if you are going to do it, should it not be the responsibility of the leagues. I would hate to think that the team with the most cameras would be able to "win". What about video alteration which some people can do extremely well. Let's say that it would be a good idea, surely if it is the taping must be controlled by something?

[SlartyBartFast]

I would hate to think that the team with the most cameras would be able to "win".

Well, even if the other team only had one camera, maybe a spectator would supply them with footage to issue a complaint. Even with only one, the complexity of checking for the camera before cheating puts a lot of pressure on the whole team.


What about video alteration which some people can do extremely well.

Very difficult to do with tight time limits. That, and have it shown from raw footage and it would be VERY difficult to fake someone cheating.


Let's say that it would be a good idea, surely if it is the taping must be controlled by something?

Risk taken on by the team lodging the complaint would provide a lot of control.

But, even one undercover spectator with a conceiled camera could do wonders for rules enforcement.

[Lohman446]

Well, even if the other team only had one camera, maybe a spectator would supply them with footage to issue a complaint. Even with only one, the complexity of checking for the camera before cheating puts a lot of pressure on the whole team.

But a team with ten dedicated and trained camera operators would have a noticeable difference over a team without. Do we want "camera crew" to be part of the skill set that determines winners and loosers (assuming cheating will still occur)?

[SlartyBartFast]

But a team with ten dedicated and trained camera operators would have a noticeable difference over a team without. Do we want "camera crew" to be part of the skill set that determines winners and loosers (assuming cheating will still occur)?
No, I wouldn’t want “camera crew” to be the reason to have an honest team lose. But it can’t make an honest team lose. Perhaps by intimidation factor. But, an honest team shouldn’t be intimidated.
But if it makes an honest team win over a cheating team, then "camera crew" is a skill I wouldn't mid being a factor.
Could it help a cheating team win? Well, how would the optics play if spectators saw a team cheat and that team won the tournament by having many cameramen and exposing the other team’s illegal moves?

[Lohman446]

No, I wouldn’t want “camera crew” to be the reason to have an honest team lose. But it can’t make an honest team lose. Perhaps by intimidation factor. But, an honest team shouldn’t be intimidated.
But if it makes an honest team win over a cheating team, then "camera crew" is a skill I wouldn't mid being a factor.
Could it help a cheating team win? Well, how would the optics play if spectators saw a team cheat and that team won the tournament by having many cameramen and exposing the other team’s illegal moves?

I don't necessarily disagree with you on this but I see some issues. Honest teams will from time to time get pegged for cheating, that is violating the rules.

Take this example, call it A:
An honest player is making for the snake, a step before his dive he is hit, the ball breaks, but his momentum carries him forward into the slide and he slides the hit off. The ref is called for a paintcheck and calls the player clean. He then manages to make game changing moves that allow his team to win.

Example B
A dishonest player is making for the snake, a step before his dive he is hit, the ball breaks. Without any visible change of stride the player dives and the hit is slid off. The ref is called for a paintcheck and calls the player clean. He then manages to make game changing moves that allow his team to win.

How are you going to differentiate between A and B? I think we have already had hte argument that the rules need enforced, regardless of intent (or who you are for that matter). You wipe, its wiping, even if you did so "accidentally". You play on its playing on, regardless of your knowledge of the hit.

Will there be cases that the video tape changes the outcome of the game? Yes. Will there be times this effects honest players as well as dishonest? Yes. Will the teams with the most angles, and camera crew trained what to look for have an advantage over those without (both honest and dishonest)? Yes.

I don't disagree with the idea of reviewed tape, much in how the NFL does it. Perhaps every game should be taped and reviewed by impartial third parties with a time limit on the review to look for blatant indisputable video evidence of cheating. Remember though, we run into the same problem we have now. The rules will have to be applied to everyone, regardless of intent. I think this is a major problem we have now with paintball, that too many people try to evaluate, and operate in, a "grey" area.

[SlartyBartFast]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on this but I see some issues.
I’ll certainly agree that there are issues that would need to be addressed.

Honest teams will from time to time get pegged for cheating, that is violating the rules.
Too bad. Whether you break a rule intentionally or unintentionally, you broke the rule.

How are you going to differentiate between A and B?
Actually, I’d say you can’t. And you shouldn’t. The ref missed the hit and made a bad call. The cheating was the intentional obliteration of the hit. But that would only be detectable if you could read minds.
The cheating that can be caught by video would have to be clearly defined. I’d say it would have to be obvious rubs and wipes, failure to check a hit, playing on with an obvious hit, etc.
Could someone be caught with a hit they honestly didn’t notice? Yes. But who cares. They WERE hit. Perhaps after getting caught a couple of times, instead of training to ignore hits and wait till a ref calls them out, tournament players would train to feel and react instantly to hits and call themselves out. Just as the rule books say they should.
But, then again, we come back to the problem of all rules discussions. Even the blatant and easily enforceable rules are inconsistently caught and punished.

[Lohman446]

The cheating that can be caught by video would have to be clearly defined. I’d say it would have to be obvious rubs and wipes, failure to check a hit, playing on with an obvious hit, etc.
Could someone be caught with a hit they honestly didn’t notice? Yes. But who cares. They WERE hit. Perhaps after getting caught a couple of times, instead of training to ignore hits and wait till a ref calls them out, tournament players would train to feel and react instantly to hits and call themselves out. Just as the rule books say they should.But, then again, we come back to the problem of all rules discussions. Even the blatant and easily enforceable rules are inconsistently caught and punished.

I think we have agreed to exactly this in the past. There are problems already within the rules and there current enforcement that could be addressed that would help. Lets get to enforcing the rules we have before calling for a different method of finding them. Too often a ref makes the decision if he thinks you felt the hit or not, this should nto be the case, "obvious" hits are clearly defined by the rules, as well as the penalties for failing to comply with the rules. There just seldom enforced.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

You have a very interesting idea, Slarty. Lohmann raises some good points, but I think your answers are pretty good. There is no perfect system. People will continue to cheat in paintball, as they do in every other sport. But an idea that can reduce cheating, or mitigate it's harmful effects is not to be sneered at.

My only comment would be that this idea would continue the general trend that budget is a key factor in competitive paintball success. But given that there is no real chance of leveling the playing field on that score, it's an observation more than a criticism.

[mag88888]

Just WOW!!!

I hope I never see that.

I agree, I hope I never see it again. That ref scraed me to death. The field is realyl rundown, the refs are the owners kids, and maybe some friends. They do not have any sup' air or anytihng. They just have some woods, pallets, spools. But anyways the reffing and safety concerns there are just soo terrible. Sometimes they dont chrono rigth off, they do it a little later, after a few games. The owners are good people, I've talked to them but they just dont know how to run a paintball place that well. i just watch out for stuff there. They sort of pretend to make it safe, signing wavers, reading out rules. But on the field its anything but like that. This is the reason I wrote a letter to the twon board considering a paintball facility. I will be talking with them in person somtime or another. I know it wont happen, i just want the idea floating around, and to prove how safe it really is when you take the proper procedures.

[Lohman446]

oh lohman dont worry it will be stated on the waiver that every 1 signs and never reads...if you are caught cheating ...consequences may include banning, pulled from games, and in the event the player does not comply, a field official may resort to using excessive force...as in shooting you untill u decide to leave the game....any returned fire will be met by extreme physical force to be distrubuted by field staff equipped with behavioral control devices..such as tasers...pepper spray..batons,,boots...and paintball markers...

That'll work :rolleyes:

[ThePixelGuru]

Camera crews are a good idea, regardless of who they're associated with. If one team gets caught for cheating while another gets away with it, so be it. Sucks that both didn't get caught, but hey, at least we can get some of them. Really, the best way to do it is to have at least one ref for every player. It's a little cost prohibitive, but many players already volunteer to ref. The problem is making sure they're unbiased, and that they care enough about catching cheaters.

[Wizzman]

This is why you pop there ***' in the goggle or try to hit them as many times untill it hurts. But yea wiping is somewhat of a problem where I play as well.

[Ken Majors]

In my opinion there are many players that don't see cheating as cheating. What I mean by this is that they believe that if they are hit and the ref does not see it then they were not hit.
This is why you see tournament players playing on, unflinching until a ref physically removes the arm band. They do this for a couple of reasons, if they can hit the guy that hit them before the ref gets there, they will probably get a one for one. If they play on the ref may not notice, or they may have a chance to quickly wipe the hit before he gets there.
I believe that when you are hit, you should call yourself out. A ref is just there for those times when you don't know that you are hit, or for paint checks, and for the safety of the players.
If you are diving into the snake and are hit mid air and know you are hit, call yourself out upon getting up. Even if the paint wiped off during the slide.
This game was originally based upon the honor of the players. Not based on the opinion of what the ref saw. But on what you as a player KNOW happened.

My 2 cents.


Long time lurker, infrequent poster.

[snoopay700]

Overkill. Just give each ref a PGP to tuck into his pocket. Might not light 'em up, but you've got the time to aim well enough to make it really hurt. Say, shoot for the neck. I don't care how sneaky those cheaters are, welts don't wipe off. :D
Yeah, i considered that but lighting up leaves a bigger impression and more welts. Oh, and cellmate? I wouldn't have a cell mate, we'd stop as soon as they yell out, and since they sign a waiver they can't complain or sue because getting shot is part of the game, and refs can join in. Also, if they hear about that they won't wipe. It's not illegal, and i'd be inflicting no more pain than if they were lit up by a player.

[Troen]

my idea, overhead cameras, of decent quality so they can zoom in later. each team is allowed to call to use the overhead cameras after each round (multipal rounds in a game) but its still going by the time rules. 40 minutes still is the only time they're allowed, so teams behind on points wont be calling to use it, and the team who won wont care if they wiped. if a team decides to review the video, the captains and a head reft watch a monitor, zooming in where desired, and if someones caught, the round is forfited, if both teams are caught cheating, round is void and each start off with the cheating player expelled from the TOURNAMENT if it shows him wiping. sound good to anyone?

[Lohman446]

and since they sign a waiver they can't complain or sue .

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[snoopay700]

oh lohman dont worry it will be stated on the waiver that every 1 signs and never reads...if you are caught cheating ...consequences may include banning, pulled from games, and in the event the player does not comply, a field official may resort to using excessive force...as in shooting you untill u decide to leave the game....any returned fire will be met by extreme physical force to be distrubuted by field staff equipped with behavioral control devices..such as tasers...pepper spray..batons,,boots...and paintball markers...
Whoa, not so excessive, they just get banned for the day. If they return and act the same then they won't be coming back. And plus since getting shot is part of the game, it's just that, part of the game. After it happens once i'm sure i won't have a problem with cheating.

[Lohman446]

Whoa, not so excessive, they just get banned for the day. If they return and act the same then they won't be coming back. And plus since getting shot is part of the game, it's just that, part of the game. After it happens once i'm sure i won't have a problem with cheating.

If someone shot me after they knew I was eliminated with the intent to inflict pain there would be an issue, either with me taking appropriate steps to defend myself at the time or by seeking appropriate remedy later on.

[snoopay700]

If someone shot me after they knew I was eliminated with the intent to inflict pain there would be an issue, either with me taking appropriate steps to defend myself at the time or by seeking appropriate remedy later on.
ok, no i would do that ONLY if i saw them hit, and they wipe, or just keep playing, i'll first tell them to get off the field, if that doesn't work and they say it's from a bunker, they get lit up. That is the only case, or if they repeatedly get hit and stay in. Oh, and just because a place has woods and pallets and stuff doesn't mean it's run down, that's called woodsball. Wow, they don't have any sup' airball fields, maybe the owners don't like that. The field i go to has bunkers like that, as well as a few forts and barrels, and a hyperbal field. But they're still rundown right, cause they've owned the field for over 15 years? Basically my point is it's just the style (oh, and just fyi, that field is rated as one of the safest fields you can play at, and didn't have one safety issue in their whole career until last october when one guy lifted his goggles in the chrono station and got a split lip).

[Lohman446]

ok, no i would do that ONLY if i saw them hit, and they wipe, or just keep playing, i'll first tell them to get off the field, if that doesn't work and they say it's from a bunker, they get lit up.

I'm lost as to the justification here as to why you don't think that this would illicit a response from an individual. Are you firing a marker at them with the intent to do physical harm outside of the context of the game? Yes...

[snoopay700]

I'm lost as to the justification here as to why you don't think that this would illicit a response from an individual. Are you firing a marker at them with the intent to do physical harm outside of the context of the game? Yes...
No, not outside of the context of the game, they're out but don't realize it, so they need a little help, ie someone shooting them until they say they're out, and then i believe there won't be any more problems from that person with cheating.

[rabidchihauhau]

History lesson:

'no-flinching' drills were in effect way back in the early 80's - there's nothing new there.

the no flinching drills came into being for TWO purposes - one legit, the other not. Rules at the time said "if you look like you've been hit (flinch or look) a referee will check you closely; if you are hit and haven't acknowledged it, its a 3 for 1"

good, honest teams learned anti-flinching because no one wanted referees taking them out of the game for a check. An honest player who felt a hit would not flinch, but would check discreetly and then walk off if hit.

No amount of 'anti-cheating methods' is going to stop cheating. Bonus balls won't help either (eg - punishing the offender on the field); if I'm good enough to wipe and get away with it, I'm good enough to take your hits and lite you right back up - and I might even be good enough to get a two-for-one called on your team for excessive shooting... talk about adding insult to injury...

One thing that helps is 'off the field refs' - using walkie-talkies and not directly making calls, but calling them in to refs on the field. No one looks outside the field.

the other thing to do is make penalties that totally remove the benefit of the cheat. If a wiping or playing on penalty was 'loss of game' - you'd see a lot less of it.

the final thing is - refs not only have to do their jobs (many don't), they also have to be willing to stick to what they saw regardless of what is on the player when they check.

A player gets hit before his slide into the snake that a ref saw, the ref makes the call - he was hit, out - regardless of whether there's paint there or not. That player can scream about bad calls all day for all I care - I saw the hit and I'm the ref, end of story.