BPS and ROF, who do you think you're fooling?

[cledford]

Just curious (and anxious to stir some things up...), how many people can do over 10BPS with their marker regardless of type? How about 12-14, or even 19BPS?

Oh really? Or maybe I should say, Oh really?!?!?!?

I think just about every claim I see of greater then 10BPS is false, in fact I might even go as far as to say that any above 13 are an outright lie.

How exactly do you guys verify these claims? Is it just a gut feeling, or are you using some sort of device to actually prove you assertions?

Here is a link to a device that records shot strings, can tell you the number of shots per second, and even the split times.

http://www.pact.com/time.html

I suggest that someone sponsor a contest where owners are timed using a PACT timer to record true BPS rate. I know most of you will be disappointed with the results.


Sorry if this is a confrontational, but I'm starting to get irritated with claims such as:

well I've seen a lcd angel shoot 22pbs.
and i've had mine to 19

the guy shooting 22 shot his using the sexy angel program in full auto

but i've shot mine in semi to 19, just got lucky w/ a nice stream...

located in the http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18848 thread.

The simple fact is that some of these guns may mechanically be able to CYCLE at these ROFs, some like the Emag with Warp or HALO might be able to be mechanically FIRED at the ROF, but it is highly unlikely that anyone can actually pull it off themselves.
-Calvin

[headcase]

I agree with you completely, it is to the point I don't even pay attention to anyone who says something about BPS. It just doesn't matter, it isn't likely to be true anyway. The only people I care about are the people I play with, and numbers don't matter then either, I just know if they can shoot fast or not.

BTW - there has been events like you mention at major tournies, I think the winner pulled of a string of 12 or 13 or something CPS, cycles per second, not BPS.

Later
SSDD

[kenshinkandon]

the way I look at it is if a person can fire a ball 300 ft then their is one ball now someone stand at the 300ft mark and the person with the marker begins to shoot as much as possible when the first ball hits the mark then the person shooting stops and all the other ball are accounted into the equeation and you have how balls many you can shoot a second. I also agree its tiring of hearing all about bps bps, just take out the p and all you get is BS.

[Russ]

bps bps, just take out the p and all you get is BS.

LOL, that's a good one!

I have one of those PACT club timers. It won't read anything faster than .1 (1/10th) of a second.

Angels have some sort of built-in ROF counter. I'm not sure how it works, though.

BPS is all hype. Gives the PBer's something to brag about.

[manike]

Originally posted by Russ
Angels have some sort of built-in ROF counter. I'm not sure how it works, though.

You can't take the ROF counter on an Angel as gospel. It has been known to round up... and more than you would expect sometimes. :)

manike

[RobAGD]

Layy Casio did this at World Cup a while back. Chris Lasoya pull something like 13.5 sps on his angel.

Most people cant break 10 sps let alone 13. Now there are some freaks of nature that can rattle off shots in the 13 range but they are far an few between.

I have a Pact Mark 4 Pro Chrono, I have pulled 10 SPS on my Callis mag 2 or 3 times while goofing off. I got 14 on my RT once ( and no it wasnt run away ).

I have test a ton of people. I have seen one cocker above 9 sps and I have yet to see an Angel above 12.


Just a word about those idiots that trust the LCD ROF counter. That crappy litlle doodad takes the FASTEST split time out a string. Its not a string it just 2 shots with a split time that will give you that highest rof. It's all in how you market it.


-Robert

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

my field had one of those crono's with the counter on it. i hit 10 bps with my elcd. i'm not just guessing, that's what the thing said. i have a retromag that i'm pretty sure i hit 8-10. but that's just guessing cause i'm only basing it on the sound from the 10 that i know i hit with my elcd. but you guys are right, people to have claims of 19bps are just morons. but so what, just ignore them. while they're emptying their hopper on someone they can't hit anyways, let's just show them that you don't need to shoot 13 balls in a second to get someone out.

[Janixs]

I have a very high rate of fire it’s up around 2000 balls a day.

[crash890]

I know of only one person that can rattle of at about 14 BPS... He scares me sometimes, yes I have almost gotten nailed by then, he tested it with a Mic, and recorded the sound (Comp). Broke a one Second chunk off and counted the shots (spikes), frightening enough, he is pretty consistant like that too...

The second I know, can only do 12 if he "feathers" the trigger. and he has gotten pretty good at that too, from whatever postion.

These two people pride themselves on their ability, and have gotten complimented on it. They both shoot Matrices, with insanely shorted trigger pulls, although the faster one just switched to a cocker, so his speed is out the window now.

BUT these are the only people I know who can rattle shots off like that...

Personally I can only do about 10. and I think that is fast enough for me.

[Cliffio]

i also agree
however, i can get 11 anyday of the week on my lcd, and a few days ago when i was playin around i got 12, i have witnesses also:)
i could even take a pic sometime, but anyways
yeah like on PBC, people are talkin like 19 and stuff, i mean its rediculous

now what u should have done is started a thread asking how fast everone shot, then u could see all the morons that thought they would impress everyone saying something like 37:)

later
Cliff

[Gecko]

hehe on hybrid my emag will drop hopper long strings at 16bps.......
I'm guessing the 16 bps since if i set the rof any lower the string is much harder to do. Whatever the rof it's damn fast
I find the only time a high rof is really useful is on the break trying to tag people running into their bunkers
Gecko

[Nitroduck]

I have clocked myself in at 14bps with my Angel LED when I'm using the fastest settings on a LED.

To get a accurate BPS, what I do is use a audio recorder on the computer, shoot...Check the peaks , take the fastest 1 second of firing, and count the peaks in the sound and calculate how many are in 1 second...

Its not that hard to get 14bps when you know the trigger tricks such as walking or fanning...

Don't believe me? I can send you the audio file.

As for the 19+ Bps, the LCD screen takes the 2 fastest shots (on a angel, that'd be every 50 milliseconds) and then multiplies them..So if you were lucky and got ONLY 2 shots off in a second, and they were 50ms apart, the screen would say 20bps...I do it all the time on my LED, but due to human hands, its almost impossible to hit the trigger every 50ms...The best I can do is keep a good rythmn at about 80ms.

Also, btw, just because I have fast trigger fingers doesnt mean I have to use 14bps all the time..However, its GREAT for hitting runners, snap shooters and then sweetspotting off the break...And if you think higher (8+bps) isnt needed, let me tell you what happened at my last tourney....

We had 2 paints, Team Colors and Proball. It litterally took 20 shots to get a break on most parts of the body.
When we were playing the best team there at the tournament (Crow Dogs, who all use AdrenS Angels, or Darks, or such) who could beat us any time of the day with thier ROF because it only took them 1 and 1/2 seconds to put out 20 balls, and one of which always broke...The only reason we lost was because we were using guns with a lower ROF (Mags, Cockers, and a bm2k guy who didnt learn his trigger as fast as he could)....I took 20 shots at one of thier guys w/ my mag, hit him about 15 times, no breaks, then by the time he wised up, it took him and his buddies about 1/2 a second to finally get a break on me...That made me get a Angel and to this day, I've never had a problem taking out a person quickly.

[manike]

Originally posted by Nitroduck
I can send you the audio file.

Yes please, post it up.

manike

[Cliffio]

yeah some guy was talkin about how he got 19 on some led, THEN he was informed that leds were capped at 15 bps

hmmm OWNED:)

Cliff

[Nitroduck]

I'll put it up very soon....Let me gas my LED up.

By the way, you have been mis informed about LED Angels. Under STOCK settings with the STOCK chips and 15-16 dwell time produces a MROF of 15bps. However, change the dwell down to 12-13 you get 20bps. You need to learn a lil more before you say someones been "owned"

Lets pray I got some gas left in my N2 station.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

bro, you shot the guy 15 times? come on. not to be a jerk, but the first time someone gets hit, it doesn't take them that long to react and duck behind a bunker. unless he was just standing in the middle of nowhere, i find it really hard to believe you shot him 15 times. and if he was stupid enough to be outside a bunker to get shot 15 times, then that guy is the worst speedball player in history. one more thing, it really wouldn't make any difference what gun is shooting the paint(angel or mag). if the paint is hard, it won't break. an angel won't make more breaks on someone just because it's an angel. AND..... in tournament play, you hsould only be hitting someone's gun or mask. that's the only part of someone's body that should be sticking out of a bunker. unless they're moving up or just off the break, there shouldn't be a reason to be aiming for someone's body. it just shouldn't happen. in which case, any hard ball should break on the mask or gun. if the paint is hard(proballs) and won't break on someone, get new paint. a new gun isn't going to make the difference. you'll just shoot more of it.

[i-luv-my-rt]

I have also done the audio trick and have clocked me emag at around 15 bps with warp. But then i noticed that my 12v revvy couldnt keep up, started to miss. If you can outshoot a 12v revvy your goin at a good clip. I should have a video file of myself soon.

I have seen very few fast angels in my day. I have seen bushies fly by angels. This is prolly just the person but still. I can outshoot the owners of angels on my team any day of the week.

Buti do agree on most

[krafty]

I shoot an amazingly fast 5 bps... I'm special! Maybe 8 if I bounce the trigger on my retro valve... but that's probably an over-estimation. I've seen that e-mag HALO video at 15bps, and I've never seen anyone ANYWHERE I've played that was capable of manually shooting that fast. Maybe with the Angel's mouse-click trigger it would be possible if you fanned the trigger *just right*. Oh well...

[Thordic]

I can pull 10 CPS on my Intelliframe with a stock valve, I sent BlackVCG the WAV file of my pulls for an independant count :) The last shot was kinda weak, though.

If I tried to do 10 BPS with paint in the gun, though, I'd most likely chop or something, I never have tried to go that fast in a game.

I guess in games I shoot around 5-6 normally, and 8 tops? Maybe 9... but the opportunities in most games to be able to sit there and fan the trigger aren't all that often.

I've seen people say they don't see how anyone could pull 6+. I think thats a little naive, but people shooting over 12-13 in semi mode seems a little iffy to me. Maybe 14 CPS on an RT.

[Nitroduck]

Ok , I gassed my angel up......my scuba was down to 250psi , even though it was down that bad i was still able to shoot a nice string.......

I'm seeing if i can attach the file (zipped) to the forum , if i can't i'll try to upload it to my server.....

I was able to do 14bps for a second....i could of done 16 or so , but the trigger springs are worn down pretty bad on my gun ( see how much 20k cycles wears down trigger springs )

[Tiny]

Who cares about bps? You only need 1 accurate shot to get someone out. I try to only shoot 3 shot burst and can do this in 1 sec with a stock mag so why worry about any more.

People are more worried about bps than consistency, reliability, manufacture warranty, accuracy. WHY?

[Ityl]

In the hyperframe, you can set it to burst at 10 bps. If that's right, I have hit over 10 bps with a benchy with a special blade trigger. I can't do it sitting around, but I can do it in a game. But this is if the hyperframe is right. And it was shooting with paint, I think with the warp, I don't remember.

A lot of people say they can shoot 5 million bps, but there are some that don't lie, so you don't need to flame everyone :).

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L
bro, you shot the guy 15 times? come on. not to be a jerk, but the first time someone gets hit, it doesn't take them that long to react and duck behind a bunker. unless he was just standing in the middle of nowhere, i find it really hard to believe you shot him 15 times. and if he was stupid enough to be outside a bunker to get shot 15 times, then that guy is the worst speedball player in history. one more thing, it really wouldn't make any difference what gun is shooting the paint(angel or mag). if the paint is hard, it won't break. an angel won't make more breaks on someone just because it's an angel. AND..... in tournament play, you hsould only be hitting someone's gun or mask. that's the only part of someone's body that should be sticking out of a bunker. unless they're moving up or just off the break, there shouldn't be a reason to be aiming for someone's body. it just shouldn't happen. in which case, any hard ball should break on the mask or gun. if the paint is hard(proballs) and won't break on someone, get new paint. a new gun isn't going to make the difference. you'll just shoot more of it.

???????? wtf

[RaV3n_Pa1ntba||]

what do you mean wtf...it makes perfect sense...so directed to you WTF???

[joeyjoe367]

Originally posted by Tiny
People are more worried about bps than consistency, reliability, manufacture warranty, accuracy. WHY?

Wel, as far as consistency and accuracy go, Guns have reached their peak as far as acuracy and consistancy go. The RT Valve and the Max-Flow for example. I've known both of them to put out fps like 285,285,285,285,285,285, and so on. Mabe a +/- of like .5 fps. That's pretty damn good.

Accuracy's peaked out too. A lot of people now know that all you need is a good paint/barrel match, and mabe a muzzle break, and that's about as good as you can get.

Now why are people concerned with ROF? Ask Tom. The only REAL way to get accuracy in paintball is [b]VOLUME[b]. Period.

Now, I'm just waiting for a new kind of technology to come out. Mabe a differant kind of paintball, or some revolutionary barrel system.

[hitech]

what I do is use a audio recorder on the computer, shoot...Check the peaks

You are ASSUMING that the audio recorder is accurate down to better than 1/20 of a second. I doubt that VERY much.

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by RaV3n_Pa1ntba||
what do you mean wtf...it makes perfect sense...so directed to you WTF???

i musta missed somethin

cause who said anything about shootin someone 15 times?

[Chaos]

Actually, you REALLY need to do more research on your topics before you flame, because you sound REALLY dumb (no affense). First off, there are many EASY ways to find out your ROF. Lets remember, just because your gun says '20bps' it doesn't mean its actually doing it (for those electro users that have guns with that capability). As for angels, last I checked, unless you hack the software they're limited to 13bps. Which I know many who can rock their trigger on an Angel that fast, no lie.

As for telling how fast you shoot, its very simple. All windows based computers come with 'sound recorder', which digitally records any sounds through a mic (you can buy for about $2 at a store for a cheap one, thats all you need) that you hook into your sound card. Now, all you do, is record yourself shooting your fastest. Then blow up the wav data (the graph that has the spikes of sound), zoom in, cut to the fastest 1sec section you have, and count the spikes. Then, for people that dont believe you, send them that clip since its already digital, and they can analyze it themselves. How do you think I know I got my mag to do 18bps once (yes I had it setup with a custom AR frame, and it was choking, but none the less it was 18bps, I can do 14bps easy with no dropoff with my maxflow).

Another way to do it, is to get a videocamera, record your finger pulling the trigger, slow down the video tape, and take a 1sec clip and see how many times your finger moves. This is unreliable unless you're actually feeding paint if you have an electro set on AR mode, burst, or turbo.

There are other ways also, personally I find the easiest is the digital sound recording, which is VERY simple to do. AGD had an electronic 'finger' setup to a computer and some other fancy stuff to record the RT doing 26+bps. I've seen some chronographs that do similar functions, only if you're feeding paint through it tho.

As for the lies and such, most people lie, but trust me reaching over 10bps isn't as hard as it seems. On my centerflag cocker, i can max it out (11bps) just rocking the trigger. Personally the funnest thing I've done tho is play with a centerflag pirahna set on 3shot burst, after you got it started it sent to like 9bps, but doing 9bps at a steady string for a couple seconds is VERY fast to watch, and I find it very amuzing with a gun thats built like a tin can :)

[manike]

Cliffio here you go... Hint = read the whole thread ;)


Originally posted by Nitroduck
It litterally took 20 shots to get a break on most parts of the body.


Originally posted by Nitroduck
I took 20 shots at one of thier guys w/ my mag, hit him about 15 times, no breaks, then by the time he wised up, it took him and his buddies about 1/2 a second to finally get a break on me...

[Nitroduck]

I guess you'd have to be at the field i played at to understand where i'm commin from.........BPS does have advantages becasue i've been in situations when a high ROF helps quite a bit.........

Another thing i think is funny is.......
Most of the people talk about angels as if they've owned one and yet they haven't. Stock angels have boards that are set at 13bps , to turn it upto 20 all you do is take the grip pannel off , then go to the ROF selection and turn it upto 20bps , confirm selection then put pannel back on. On a LED the ROF goes upto 16bps , then you can play with dwell and turn the gun's speed higher than 16.....

[Cliffio]

ahh thanks manike
i didnt catch that when i read it
i thought he was talkin to me??
i was like HUH?

wow, me = confused:)

thanks


what dwell would it be set on to get higher rof?
stock is what? 14 i think?

[AngelBoy]

I can get around 9 in games. Ive gotten 12 before but that was because i was fannin the trigger. I've seen the videos of emags and warps and halos and ive never seen ANYBODY shoot that fast. Ive never seen someone shoot more than 13 in real life. Most people that say they can get 14-15 cps and then when i put em on my angel it only reads up to about 8 or 9 and i laugh and walk away.

[zads27]

Hey guys, sorry but the Angel LCD ROF counter does NOT average between the two fastest shots, and figure out how fast you're shooting just from those two-
Well, my 2k Dark Angel LCD doesn't, at least, I'm pretty certain..

I can hit 14 cps on the counter fanning, and 12 cps (hit 13 once) just regular pulls, though this was recorded using the disputed lcd rof. (This is only cycling the solenoid, no balls, or anything.. just solenoid)
I could hit 11 cps on a regular automag valve (non-rt) mag. This was recorded on an audio cassette tape, and then later reviewed by myself and a friend.

On to the disputed LCD counter.. If I pull two shots as fast as possible on my LCD, then don't shoot anymore, the ROF will show 2. The same goes if I pull it once, pause for any given time under a second, and then pull again. (The ROF still shows 2)
If I pull 3 shots, in the same fashions, check the ROF, it shows 3.
And I go so on and so forth, all the way up to 12. (though at the higher rates of fire i can't conclusively tell that I'm pulling exactly 11 shots, exactly 12 shots, or whatever, since it takes a sort of concentration to rip shots that fast)
So, unless I'm mistaken, this is nearly conclusive, assuming I didn't make my respective test pulls exactly 500ms, 333ms, 250ms, etc,. apart, which I'm certain I did not.

I'm not saying my test is completely conclusive, I do suppose some weird programming or something could do this mystical multiplication thing, but from what I found, it doesn't lie.

[deded]

Alright... this is my untechnical, unmathematical opinion.

I think having a consistantly high ROF is way more important then a super high max ROF.

This is to say that being able to hit 7 bps with ease is more important then 13 bps when concentrating as hard as you can on pulling the trigger right.

This is IMHO where high quality electros have an advantage over mechanicals. (I've never shot a retro though, so go figure)

I can most likely get 7-9 bps out of my mag, but I've never measure. It is possible to get a higher ROF, but I'd say that it is much easier to get one with a mouse click than a mag trigger.

So when I snap shoot, I probably shoot about 3-5 balls. Where as the guy snapping at me with the angel is getting 5-7 every peak.

So I think high consistant ROF is extremely important. Screw a meaningless number that someone on the other side of the internet claims to have gotten.

Anyway, thats my opinion (however convoluded it sounds)

:)

[Nitroduck]

Deded- Well said...
One important thing about high ROF...It might not come in the form of holding X ammount of balls in 1 second......One of the most important things I've found with my Angel is the fact I can pop out, take about 5 shots in 1/3rd of a second (or whatever BPS I have my gun set at), and pop back in...With my Cocker/Mag, I can't really do 5 shots in 1/3rd of a second like my Angel can..Of course, if I spent more time tricking my Mag out..Im sure a a RT/Intelliframe could do near the same..

Also, Zads...Some of the newer LCDs dont have the 2 shots = 20bps programming the older ones had...But I do know that I read many posts on Paintballcity back in the day about 20bps Angels and why thier boards would say that.

[~WarpedRT~]

High...
Low..
After I bunker you, your going to have alot of welts.

LOL! j/k.

Anyway, I suppose I could get out about 8-9, and probably 10 if amped enough in a game. It doesnt matter though. Well placed shots are more important than a long string. If you can effectivly single shoot someone and get them out (on purpose) then you are more dangerous than anyone who can throw a wall of paint and hit nothing. Using a high rate of fire all the time will probably degrade your skills. If you fire 12 bps all the time, try using a pump, and you'd probably get nailed really early in the game.

On a side note, I noticed something funny. When I happen to break a ball at any time for what ever reason, I couldnt hit any desired tree (or anything else), within ten shots. But in a game, I can single shoot people all the time just after a ball breaks in the barrel. I happen to be able to get a single shot off, and must return to cover, but stay up just long enough to see the ball spiral around and hit the desired person. It's funny. It has hapened alot, but nwo that I have the chopping fixed, I will be getting a Freak set, so I guess I wont need to be worrying about that anymore.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by Nitroduck

We had 2 paints, Team Colors and Proball. It litterally took 20 shots to get a break on most parts of the body.
When we were playing the best team there at the tournament (Crow Dogs, who all use AdrenS Angels, or Darks, or such) who could beat us any time of the day with thier ROF because it only took them 1 and 1/2 seconds to put out 20 balls, and one of which always broke...The only reason we lost was because we were using guns with a lower ROF (Mags, Cockers, and a bm2k guy who didnt learn his trigger as fast as he could)....I took 20 shots at one of thier guys w/ my mag, hit him about 15 times, no breaks, then by the time he wised up, it took him and his buddies about 1/2 a second to finally get a break on me...That made me get a Angel and to this day, I've never had a problem taking out a person quickly.

[Cliffio]

yeah that was my bad, i just didnt catch that
im stupid
somehow i thought u were talkin to me, cause i said somethin about 15 bps

sorry:)
Cliff

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

it's all good, it happens