What's Happening with Tippman's Propane Gun??

[AGD]

AO,

I am curious to hear how Tippman's fire burner is doing out there in the market. Are you seeing them on the field or in the stores?

Thanks!!

AGD

[etjoyride]

Actually, i saw one at one of the fields around here, but the guy didnt actaully shoot it. It looked and felt nice tohugh. Over on SCP and here some there were a few people who said they were pretty nice.

I;m sure someone can give a better explanation

[Munnin]

"whats happening with tippmans CO2 gun" dont you mean propane gun? the CO2 guns are still alive and kicking if you wanted to know :)

[behemoth]

Yes, I'm sure Tom meant propane...

They're all over the web and magazines.

Havent made it to the stores, nor the feilds -- that i've seen.

Who knows

[Recon by Fire]

I saw another thread about a C3 owner complaining about the pump arm, I believe he modified it and made it shorter. Otherwise no complaints but haven't seen them out and about either.

[Munnin]

from what iv heard through friends, the pumparm wears in after X number of shots and it becomes a real pleasure to shoot, mostly those on cold days.

[paint magnet]

Haven't seen them around here yet...then again I'm the only one who plays pump to speak of anyway.

No idea how they're doing, it seems like a good concept but has its drawbacks.

[warbeak2099]

A couple of us on the Tippmann forum are still trying to figure out how to make it semi lol. I mocked up a paint image. There are still kinks to work out though. Think about it, a semi gun that can get 50k shots per tank. Perfect for scenario games? I think so...

[Lenny]

A guy at a feild had one. It's really cool. Pretty accurate. We went one on one speedball, his C3 pump vs. my ghetto-fied Brute pump. He won (he has a couple years over me). He let me play a walk on game with it and it fires really nice. It's not as clunky as I thought.

Why do you ask? Just interested? Or are you plotting some sinister plan all us AO'ers will love? :D

[Glickman]

if your talking about the legality of it, i personally spoke to 2 guys at the ATF. One was just a lawyer who couldnt answer me, the other was a firearm guy who explained "due to the composition, it is not federally considered a firearm but may be due to state standards"

they are all over stores and ebay :D


oh, now that we've got you stuck here...


will there be either a Shatnerball or "Celebration of Tom" game this year? :clap: :clap:

[SpitFire1299]

I saw one once.. I shot it too. It didnt seem like anything special.

i think working on getting a gun to get more shots off a 68/45 would be a better idea than a whole new system. However, its a great innovation. :D

[peewee]

Local sales have been beyond slow, maybe 3 have sold in my area that I heard of. I dont know that it has made the impact they had hoped for. Personally I believe if they had released an SLIII CO2 powered pump they would have sold a bunch.

[11 Bravo]

I have not seen one on any of the fields that I go to. The local store still has the one that they got when they first came out and havent sold it yet.
I think its a flop around here.

[Lee]

havn't seen one in person other than the display at waynes world in december.

[SPECK]

Seen some in stores.

[Brian Terry AGD]

man tom i see them then all over the place ,in back yards as grills.hook the propane up and you are good to go..

[Alpha]

Har har har.

Mr. Kaye,

As a member of Boston Paintball's staff (actually I'm just a petty referee who gets tucked in the back room cleaning rentals), I can say we do sell them (we buy from NPS).

I'm not sure if we've sold one, but I will find out for you.

I can say, as a ref at Boston's only, and eastern Massachusett's largest indoor field, that I've NEVER seen one on our field.

I do know that my shift manager gassed one up to try it out, and out spewed some propane. I'm assuming it was nothign large (much like a CO2 discharge when you degas a marker), but it stunk up the store so bad they had to open the doors and windows (I'm not sure if you've been to Boston in february, but its bad).

I'll get some info from the owner if you'd like.

[Lohman446]

You know, I normally get a first look at the "odd" things around, if I don't buy it myself. I have toyed with the idea of buying one but it does not fill any niche I would want (its not stock class, nor is it open class). I have not seen any around here yet, or had an interest expressed in them by others.

[SniperSmurf]

A couple of us on the Tippmann forum are still trying to figure out how to make it semi lol. I mocked up a paint image. There are still kinks to work out though. Think about it, a semi gun that can get 50k shots per tank. Perfect for scenario games? I think so...
Better wear some oven-mits with a semi-automatic C3! :eek:

I've only seen one in person. The stroke is not nearly as bad as I expected. It is a little long though, due to having to prime new propane and vent the burned gas (in a rather large combustion chamber), but not difficult by any means... at least compared to a new PGP or something. The very fact that people are saying that it's nothing special speaks volumes to me. That implies that it performs on the same level as comparable Co2 or HPA pumps, just no better or worse. I'd say that's pretty impressive for a brand new technology with that kind of efficiency!

[camilion705]

Are there any pics of people using them? It seems like an awkward gun...

[OneEyedPimp]

I really really like mine, but no feild within 4 hours of me allow the use of it because of the "fire danger." It is kind of funny when I showed up my local field with it, it was like a bunch of prairie dogs sticking their heads out and saying, "Propane, what in tarnation?!"

[Rick-USA]

I'm not sure why your field would have a problem letting you play with it. It's a proven safe application. It's been used for years on nail guns without any serious problems I've been able to locate.

As far as seeing them out at your local field. I'm not sure you'll see a lot out there. That wasn't really the market Tippman was going after I think. It's more the renegade players they are after with this setup.

[paullus99]

From some industry contacts I have - I've heard nothing but bad things....can't be more specific, but from a paintball store perspective, the C-3 is a lose-lose proposition.

[OneEyedPimp]

I'm not sure why your field would have a problem letting you play with it. It's a proven safe application. It's been used for years on nail guns without any serious problems I've been able to locate.

As far as seeing them out at your local field. I'm not sure you'll see a lot out there. That wasn't really the market Tippman was going after I think. It's more the renegade players they are after with this setup.

Velocity Paintball park, San Diego. Really closed minded place, cater to the speedball crowd.

[barrel break]

Well, it seems like a good idea to me. It extends the playing feild to those who just want it to work, and everyone can get propane.
Casual ballers rejoice.

[AGD]

Well as you know I am pretty friendly with the Tippman crew and I got to see the gun before it was released. They asked me what I thought and I told them a couple things:

Its a pump (first problem) and propane means you are cutting the store out of the chance to sell air and make the customer come back. Second its got flamable stuff and if something goes wrong its going to be bad. So in essence I was negative on it.

The next thing I told them is every time Tippman made a move in paintball that I thought was stupid, it was a big success. Denny Sr. who is a good friend of mine, spends about two seconds making big decisons and is always right. I agonize over every detail and still I am probably 50/50.

So I was checking here to see if the magic still worked over there. Apparently not....

Thanks for the feedback!

AGD

[shartley]

Well as you know I am pretty friendly with the Tippman crew and I got to see the gun before it was released. They asked me what I thought and I told them a couple things:

Its a pump (first problem) and propane means you are cutting the store out of the chance to sell air and make the customer come back. Second its got flamable stuff and if something goes wrong its going to be bad. So in essence I was negative on it.

The next thing I told them is every time Tippman made a move in paintball that I thought was stupid, it was a big success. Denny Sr. who is a good friend of mine, spends about two seconds making big decisons and is always right. I agonize over every detail and still I am probably 50/50.

So I was checking here to see if the magic still worked over there. Apparently not....

Thanks for the feedback!

AGD
I would not say the magic didn’t work, it is too early to tell IMHO. I hear great feedback from players on this. Asking AO about a product aimed at a market clearly NOT AO is not the best way to get accurate feedback either in my opinion. If you want accurate feedback go to those who would use this marker, a primarily pump crowd.

But look at it this way as well… Mags still are not the hit folks would like them to be yet they have been around for how long? I can tell you about more than a few Mags doing nothing but collecting dust on store walls. What does that say about your decision to make them? This type of thinking can cut both ways.

I will note also that you think that being a pump is a problem. This means you are already discounting a growing segment of players. Pumps, believe it or not, are having a comeback. Granted it looks like most of the sales are from used markers at this point and not new, but with more pumps on the fields the used market will settle down and allow new sales to kick in. Having a new pump available positions Tippman for these sales.

I will also point out that you pretty much ignored rec-scenario play for years in favor if running after the unattainable tournament market, but are now (AGD the company that is) focusing its efforts on the very market which was scoffed at. What does this say? Good question.

Propane is not an issue either with regards to customers coming back to the store. Why? Because a good many players get “air” from other places. Also stores could stock propane if they wanted to. Getting an air source however is not the biggest money maker for stores. Selling PRODUCT is. So as long as a marker has a good after market capability (as in can take upgrades and other “goodies”) and it shoots paint, the store will indeed get customers to come back. Keep in mind though that Mags had virtually no after market products for them for a good long time compared to other markers, yet you (the company) didn’t seem to mind until very recently. And it didn’t seem to bother you (the company) that folks were complaining about this lack of customizing and upgrading which almost all other marker companies offered in spades. So to me, the argument about “air” seems a bit odd.

As for flammable stuff being an issue, I believe that is only because it is new. Ignorance always accompanies new ground, and you of all people should appreciate and understand that.

I guess what I am saying is that your conclusions seem to be based on proving your first impression, not with what is or is not really happening or what WILL happen. I say it is much too early to draw any conclusion as to how this product is doing or will do in general.

[BigEvil]

So I was checking here to see if the magic still worked over there. Apparently not....

Thanks for the feedback!

AGD

The gun right now is just a curiosity. I think people picked them up just to check them out.

They are not hot sellers, because I dont think that they really fill any 'need'.
-Are C02 and HPA so unavailable and expensive that players would want this new system?
-Pump guns are never going to sell big like the electros, so that fact is a big drawback right away.
-yes, its flamable. Forklifts have been using propane safely for years. How and where they are used is also heavily regulated by law. If propane as a power source for paintball guns ever became popular, expect the same.

mu $.02

[marpat]

BTW Hi Tom! nice to see you on the forum! just wanted to put that in as i see the little green dot next to your name. I hope everything is well with you. :D

From a potential buyer.

Never never never.. would i play paintall with a combustable substance no matter how safe or how many shots i get from it. Too many tolerance/manufacturing issues and variables for me to even concider buying a C3.

I know a few ppl who have bought them but quickly re-sold them.

Besides all you need is one bad accident with it and there will be some serious ramifications / lawsuits.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I'm not sure this is the right crowd to field those questions. I would say the majority of C3 users won't be frequenting a message board like this.

[OneEyedPimp]

I would not say the magic didn’t work, it is too early to tell IMHO. I hear great feedback from players on this. Asking AO about a product aimed at a market clearly NOT AO is not the best way to get accurate feedback either in my opinion. If you want accurate feedback go to those who would use this marker, a primarily pump crowd.

But look at it this way as well… Mags still are not the hit folks would like them to be yet they have been around for how long? I can tell you about more than a few Mags doing nothing but collecting dust on store walls. What does that say about your decision to make them? This type of thinking can cut both ways.

I will note also that you think that being a pump is a problem. This means you are already discounting a growing segment of players. Pumps, believe it or not, are having a comeback. Granted it looks like most of the sales are from used markers at this point and not new, but with more pumps on the fields the used market will settle down and allow new sales to kick in. Having a new pump available positions Tippman for these sales.

I will also point out that you pretty much ignored rec-scenario play for years in favor if running after the unattainable tournament market, but are now (AGD the company that is) focusing its efforts on the very market which was scoffed at. What does this say? Good question.

Propane is not an issue either with regards to customers coming back to the store. Why? Because a good many players get “air” from other places. Also stores could stock propane if they wanted to. Getting an air source however is not the biggest money maker for stores. Selling PRODUCT is. So as long as a marker has a good after market capability (as in can take upgrades and other “goodies”) and it shoots paint, the store will indeed get customers to come back. Keep in mind though that Mags had virtually no after market products for them for a good long time compared to other markers, yet you (the company) didn’t seem to mind until very recently. And it didn’t seem to bother you (the company) that folks were complaining about this lack of customizing and upgrading which almost all other marker companies offered in spades. So to me, the argument about “air” seems a bit odd.

As for flammable stuff being an issue, I believe that is only because it is new. Ignorance always accompanies new ground, and you of all people should appreciate and understand that.

I guess what I am saying is that your conclusions seem to be based on proving your first impression, not with what is or is not really happening or what WILL happen. I say it is much too early to draw any conclusion as to how this product is doing or will do in general.

:clap:

What I don't get is why everyone thinks propane is so dangerous. Propane is a very safe gas, because it ignites. Think of a stove here, there will not be a huge flame if you turn one of the burners on for a second before igniting it. It is a very tempermental gas, and requires a very good Oxygen-to-propane mixture to ignite properly.


And just as a side note, I love my C3. It is THE most consistent gun that I have ever shot; 280,280,281,282,280,279 when I chronoed it last.

[Brophog]

Getting an air source however is not the biggest money maker for stores. Selling PRODUCT is.


Its a pump (first problem) and propane means you are cutting the store out of the chance to sell air and make the customer come back.

Tom says the customer will come back because he has a need. Just because a customer needs product doesn't mean he's coming to your store to get it. However, give him an excuse to go to your store (air) and while he's there he sees something and buys it.

I know that's how I work. Most of my stuff is bought online, mostly because Palmer doesn't have a store nearby! :dance: However, when I'm in the store getting a fillup, I try to buy a few small things, if for no other reason than to support the store.

[BlackVCG]

My assessment is this:

Give it some time on the market and feedback from the field and I'll bet you'll see plenty of fields picking this gun up as a rental to fulfill their low cost "pump" option. The upkeep on the gun is next to zero. First of all it's a Tippmann. You can almost spit on them and they're lubricated for another year. And of course their gas cost dramatically drops.

For the player just getting into paintball, this doesn't fit the role but if fields do start renting it you'll see some kids buying it because it was the first gun they used and they liked it.

For the most part I see the majority of the people that buy this gun already being into paintball, having a couple other guns and buying this simply because of the low air consumption. It would be a decent training gun for snap shooting. It should also be great for the scenario market where people actually play with pumps.

[Brophog]

When was the last time you saw a pump as a rental? I remember many years ago I played a game where the field had either Mirage's or SL's (that'll tell you how long ago it was!).

Out of the 30 renters there that day, not one grabbed an SL, even though I'd consider it the better marker. New players don't want to fiddle with pumps.

[Ace12GA]

I want to throw in my $0.02 in regards to the whole propane thing. I have been a big time airsofter, as well as a bush baller.

In airsoft we have been using two kinds of gas for a long time. HFC134A and so called HFC22. HFC134A is nothing more than tetrafloroethane, or PC duster air. Very basic stuff. The trade chemical name is actually HFC134a. Now the next one, HFC22, or Green Gas, is a more powerful gas. It has a higher pressure than HFC134a, something like 30 or 40 more PSI, I honestly forget the exact number. A local fellow discovered last year that HFC22 is actually Propane, and developed a product line to allow the use of Propane with airsoft guns. It was met with some skepticism by US and over seas players, as well as local. It was quickly proven that it was safe, and cheap. A can of green gas from Taiwan is about $30 dollars, and will fill an airsoft mag 10 times, maybe 15. As you all probably know, propane is much much cheaper. $5 for 15 to 20 magazine fills. Now I should note that gas powered airsoft guns do not ignite the gas that powers them, but are operated strictly on gas pressure alone. The amount of Propane released per shot with an airsoft gun is probably 10X that combusted in a C3, yet there has been no cases of explosion. In fact, the gentlemen that made this discovery has tried in a controled experiment to ignite the exhausting Propane at the barrel tip to create an explosion with various methods. All he managed to do was burn some of the plastic on the guns with the ignition source. The Propane would not ignite, no matter what he did. Not having owned a C3, or even used one, I would still have to say they would be very safe to use. The amount of Propane combusted per shot is so small that I could not see it causing an explosion of any magnatude, certainly not enough to cause a failure, and ultimate explosion of the gas source.

More on the C3, I have seen them at 2 of the local shops in Toronto, and both report sales of them. My primary beef with them, and the reason I will not own one is this: they take batteries. Call me cheap, but I prefer mechanical firing systems, not some damn battery that can fail on me, and I have to keep replacing.

[JKR]

I am sure Tippmann hopes that sales are as consistently high as their other paintguns or as high as the likelihood that shartely will take shots at TK and AGD whenever he sees a chance.

[Miscue]

Well here's my question...

SPs patents and such describe pneumatic markers... correct?

Wouldn't an electronic propane marker be completely immune to all this? The end result is the same... a paintball gets shot out of a barrel. But how it gets there is completely different.

[Recon by Fire]

I wonder when the Zippo 2006 model will be out :) It's inventive, I like the alternate design, but i'm not gonna run out and get one.

[m-a-r-k-7]

I really haven't seen any at the fields where I play, and on the forums I frequent there don't seem to be many with them. But the ones that do have them normally say that they love them, and don't see too many problems with it.

[Aslan]

Hey Tom...

One question, why are you so impressed with Tippmann's ability to make a better marker than Brass Eagle and sell it at Wal-Mart? As far as I can see....Tippmann is successful because:

A) Decent quality/upgradability compared to low end junk.
B) Able to buy them at Wal-Mart and local sports stores.
C) They sort of look like real guns.

If you do the math...all a quality company needs to do to defeat them is make a gun that looks sort of real and sell it in Wal-Mart and in sports stores! :headbang:

If there was only a way of making a cheaper version of the Tac One....oh well....all this marketing thought is making me thirsty... :cheers:

[MoeMag]

I have seen the c-3 at my store. I asked to mess around with it… that is one peculiar looking gun :tard: . I understand peoples like for pump guns but I didn’t think they had a problem with air efficiency!? Put my 92/4500 on a pump and your good to go for a month!

A semi-auto/full auto, maybe even an electro, mil-sim propane burner would definitely have my attention, especially if it was AGD. (hint hint)

Think of it, a paintball gun that caters to the mil-sim guys that gets hot like a real gun, looks like a real gun (like Aslan said), shoots as fast as a real mil gun, and only have to worry about how many rounds (of paint) you have like a real gun, because that propane is so efficient. That would be awesome.
Oh yeah… NO PLASTIC. SP messed up making their mil-sim gun plastic; otherwise I might have bought one.

That’s my 2 bits.

PS. Mr. Kaye,
It’s reassuring to see you around recently and that the y-grips are coming back. I was starting to worry AGD was all done. Also, I have never had the privilege of having you specifically as an audience before, just wanted to say thanks… I love my Automags. :cheers:

[AGD]

I don't think it takes that long for this market to figure out if they like a product or not. Just look at the ION if you want an example. Tippman was always succesful in my mind because they offered the best balance of performance, reliablility and cost. Not perfect in any particular area but overall great value.

I imagine the gun is pretty good but it seems to be out at the edge of the market being pump and all. Making a semi auto version is harder than you think becaues you have to clean the air out of the chamber each shot. Thats what the pump action does. Probably doable but way more complicated.

AGD

[Recon by Fire]

Well just hypotheticly speaking; if AGD were to produce a propane pump-Mag, put me on the list!

[REDRT]

I just got done reading this whole thread. 1st off, propane? I suppose, but is there any need for another form of powering a marker and is there any advantage? I'm not liking the fact propane is flamable. This new marker is a pump as I understand. Rather low market place. A semi-auto would get more propane timmanns out there, but maybe that was the point. Fewer people torched this way. I would immagin we'll see a skit done on "king of the hill" soon enough. Lastly, "For God sakes don't give this or anything like it to Cheney". :spit_take

[marpat]

I just got done reading this whole thread. 1st off, propane? I suppose, but is there any need for another form of powering a marker and is there any advantage? I'm not liking the fact propane is flamable. This new marker is a pump as I understand. Rather low market place. A semi-auto would get more propane timmanns out there, but maybe that was the point. Fewer people torched this way. I would immagin we'll see a skit done on "king of the hill" soon enough. Lastly, "For God sakes don't give this or anything like it to Cheney". :spit_take


You can get like 50,000 shots off of one 16 oz propane tank.

http://www.tippmann.com/product_guide/markerDetails.aspx?categoryid=4

there is the tippy website link

http://www.tippmann.com/pdfs/products/C3/propane_vs_c02.pdf

comparison of propane to Nitrogen CO2 in pdf format.

[REDRT]

You can get like 50,000 shots off of one 16 oz propane tank.

http://www.tippmann.com/product_guide/markerDetails.aspx?categoryid=4

there is the tippy website link

http://www.tippmann.com/pdfs/products/C3/propane_vs_c02.pdf

comparison of propane to Nitrogen CO2 in pdf format.

Thanks for the links. I guess it really is quite the deal. Interesting to see if something like this will take off.

[SlartyBartFast]

My primary beef with them, and the reason I will not own one is this: they take batteries.

Personally, I’m not sure I understand the choice of using a battery. Couldn’t the pump also engage a BBQ spark lighter and have the trigger set it off?

But I think the beef is a silly one. How long is the battery going to last? Probably going to leak before it runs out of energy. All it’s doing is making a spark.

I’m wondering what happens if you put a yellow MEP cylinder on it instead of propane...

About the only downside I see to propane use is the smell. “Green Gas” for airsoft may be propane, but they don’t add the noxious smell. Do they?

Why not have a refillable cylinder on the gun and fill from the Propane tank? Seems that if you could fill for 1,000 shots, there would be significant weight savings.

[SniperSmurf]

I’m wondering what happens if you put a yellow MEP cylinder on it instead of propane...
Heh, since I use it, I was wondering the same thing... It would probably just get hotter, velocity may spike, but that would have to be adjusted anyway... Guess now I'll have to borrow one and find out! Hope my buddies got insurance... Mmmwwwaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaa!!!

[Alpha]

I believe the C3 was meant for folks who live in hickville (like canadia :clap: ) and play outlawball. Propane is usually readily available in rural areas becuase of the lack of natural gas hookups. These guys are also the guys who play in the woods and dont mind the pump.

[ThePixelGuru]

The impression that I got about the C3 is that Tippmann didn't expect it to take off. It's more a proof-of-concept marker, just to show that you can power a marker with propane and it is safe. All you people who are running scared of it and slandering it all over because you think it's going to blow up in your hands... Check how many propane grill accidents there are per users per year compared to paintball injuries. I'll bet the marker's a hell of a lot less dangerous than the balls it fires. I'd be surprised if someone really managed to hurt themselves with the propane without it being their fault.

Anyway, I'm sure Tippmann expected this, and I bet the C3 is just to get the propane system out there. I'd guess there will be something else coming later when it's a more accepted thing. Hell, there were people running scared of HPA a decade ago, look at the tourny scene now. Wait and see, people, don't bash something you don't understand.

And as a side note: where the hell are the propane 12 grams? That'd rock so hard.

[Brophog]

Your example is probably a bad one, although your overall point is good.


In 2001, gas-fueled grills caused an estimated 600 home structure fires and 3,200 home outdoor fires. That year, gas and charcoal grill fires resulted in a combined direct property loss of $19 million.

Meanwhile, paintball ranks amongst the lowest percentage of sports related accidents, below such sports as bowling and golf. Note, both amongst grilling accidents and paintballing that not all results are reported. Still, poor example.

The fact we're not hearing anything good or bad about the C3 shows that it's making no real impact. I've seen them in the stores, but not on the fields. I agree that Tippmann probably released it as a proof of concept to guage technology and impact, but I'd have to think they are less than optimistic about the early results.

However, we've yet to see them in the spring/summer peak times of playing. Releasing a niche paintball marker in November isn't likely to yield strong sales results.

[Troen]

Well here's my question...

SPs patents and such describe pneumatic markers... correct?

Wouldn't an electronic propane marker be completely immune to all this? The end result is the same... a paintball gets shot out of a barrel. But how it gets there is completely different.
genius.

[Glickman]

Well here's my question...

SPs patents and such describe pneumatic markers... correct?

Wouldn't an electronic propane marker be completely immune to all this? The end result is the same... a paintball gets shot out of a barrel. But how it gets there is completely different.


the air/propellant has nothing to do with the patent, its how it operates. you could design a differently operating pneu gun with co2 and it would be fine. BUT that means if you use a similar gun with propane it would be in violation.

[BlueFish]

Okay, while i dont own a C3, i've played with one. as the new guy here on AO, let me refresh ya'll's memory. I'm primarily a pump player, so the C3 had that appeal to me. Until i played with it.

keep in mind i'm used to either a phantom or a pgp for playing.

1- it was heavy. the gun was big, clunky, required use of a hopper and a huge 16oz tank. For 50k per pound, you'd think they'd come up with an alternate storage device, maybe a gas through stock with a checkvalve to hold a bit of propane.

2- the pump stroke was attrocious. not only was it heavy, and long, but it wasnt consistent, it didnt feel natural to me.

3- the barrel is plastic, and huge bore, with no ball detents and no anti double pumping, rollouts and double feeding was a constant problem.

4- fume buzz. i got a propane high if i stayed in one bunker shooting too long. not something i want on my field, bunch of players running around stoned with guns...

those were my biggest complaints. I really did not enjoy the C3 experience.

also, think of field owners, who make a good chunk of money on air fills. if people can just by a single propane tank, and shoot all season for $3-$4, why would they even bother going to the field.

[SniperSmurf]

the barrel is plastic, and huge bore, with no ball detents and no anti double pumping, rollouts and double feeding was a constant problem.
False on two counts there:
1. The barrel is no more "plastic" than a single-trigger AGD grip-frame is.
2. They have wire detents. Your friends was probably flattened out.

[BlueFish]

i've broken too many composite frames to trust anything other than aluminum for frames, and aluminum, brass, or carbon fiber, (steel too, but its heavy.) for barrels.

what was their reasoning for using a "composite" instead of metal for the barrel?

it was the fields C3, they lent it out to a few regulars to field test, myself being one of them. I dont think that it was mis treated, it seemed to be in good physical condition, i'd just say that the detent is not very effective with smaller paints. The FP there is particularly small. 681 on a big day.

[SniperSmurf]

i've broken too many composite frames to trust anything other than aluminum for frames, and aluminum, brass, or carbon fibre, (steel too, but its heavy.)

what was their reasoning for using a "composite" instead of metal for the barrel?
Hmmm... I've never broken a composite frame, so I'm not too worried. What are you doing to your frames?!? ;) Have you ever broken an AGD composite frame? Composites can be incredibly strong.

I imagine they didn't use metal either, a: because of heat, or b: because of constant water-vapor exposure. Heat seems more likely to me.

[BlueFish]

it wasnt an agd frame, it was my old kingman frame back in like 2000 when i first started playing.

wouldnt the composite be more sensitive to heat than say brass?

[d4m4don3]

AO,

I am curious to hear how Tippman's fire burner is doing out there in the market. Are you seeing them on the field or in the stores?

Thanks!!

AGD

My best friend bought the Tippman C3 and he isn't using it much anymore. He has it to play with but he told me there's a few problems with the c3.

In speedball the profile of the C3 works against it since it is much bigger than a regular pump gun making it more prone for his gun to get hit. The long pump slide to feed air and mix propane makes it more of a chore to pump the gun compared to his phantom. It has a loud sound profile when you make a shot making it easier for opponents to triangulate your position. Of course this could be reduced by introducing some aftermarket barrels but there aren't any yet that we know of.

The only time he really gets to use it is when we play outlaw and he runs out of co2 for his phantom which is rare. He tried using it in the speedball fields at sc village but he didn't fare well because of the aforementioned flaws/features of the gun.

[BlueFish]

imo, the c3 has a bigger profile than MOST guns period. well, maybe not the old shoebox shockers. but its pretty close.

[JRingold]

The C3's seemed to work well in the cold weather here in Minnesota. A few guys had them at the outdoor pumps and pistols event last weekend. The high temperature for the day was about 25F. They are a bit slower than the phantoms and the pump stroke is a little longer.

When one gets really into a pattern, they can get warm, which is good on a cold day.

Based on the usage and functionality, I think they will go over well with the recreational, back yard, wal-mart paintball player who plays on his own land and doesn't want to worry about filling HPA or CO2 tanks all the time. Besides, when you are done playing for the day, you can attach the can to the portable grill and have dinner! With the tanks going for a few bucks, I can see that they will be popular with people who don't want to spend a lot on playing (a.k.a. recreational "outlaw" pump players).

The product has a niche market, of people who we all don't consider to be "serious players", which means that it will probably be a successful product. The average joe who plays one or two times a year is probably going to look at this product and like it. They don't have to make much of an investment past the marker and mask, so there is an appeal there. Since these players really outnumber the "serious players", I can see that it will be a successful product in terms of units sold. I don't think that we will see a lot of them on "commercial" fields.

[SlartyBartFast]

And as a side note: where the hell are the propane 12 grams? That'd rock so hard.

They are available. I even posted a link to them in a C3 thread here on AO (or perhaps PBN). But it may only be butane that's available.

Normally, they're used to power micro-torches.

A little pricey, but would be great for the C3.

[ShooterJM]

Making a semi auto version is harder than you think becaues you have to clean the air out of the chamber each shot. Thats what the pump action does. Probably doable but way more complicated.

AGD

I'm sure I'm missing something, but couldn't you use a 12 gram c02 (or a 4 oz or something) to provide a micro burst of air to vent the chamber before the firing sequence restarted?

Man I need to buy a C3 and start messing with it.....


(if anyone uses this I get a couple free markers :ninja: )

[awilli234life]

ok heres my problem with the marker if you arn't grounded you get a nice hefty shock
you can't autotrigger and it is huge
also not haveing a changeable barrel sux

[SlartyBartFast]

ok heres my problem with the marker if you arn't grounded you get a nice hefty shock
Seems to me that would only happen if the wiring was faulty. (And electrically speaking, I think you mean INSULATED not grounded.)

you can't autotrigger
Seems to me that that's one thing that could EASILY be remedied. It should be easy to autotrigger the ignition.
Wouldn't the marker just require a switch or sensor to detect the forward position of the pump to fire the ignition spark if the trigger is pulled?

and it is huge
Don't see that changing EVER. The amount of air and propane required makes the size unavoidable. Perhaps if someone built a model that used both butane/propane and oxygen cylinders like the micro torches the combustion chamber could be smaller.

also not haveing a changeable barrel sux
That's pretty stupid on Tippmann's part. While changing barrels is usually more about fads and hype, only Palmer's can get away non-changeable barrels.
Considering Tippmann's existing lineup, I would have thought that they'd use one of their exisiting barrels at least.
But, you CAN change the barrel. It's just the barrel includes the breech. IMO, one piece is the way to go anyways.

[SlartyBartFast]

How to make the C3-semi:

Currently, when the propane explodes, there is no movement of the piston required for the exhaust to vent through the velocity control piston.

If the piston was propelled back by the explosion before the exhaust gases could escape through the velocity adjusting piston, you could have one cylinder move another.
So, not one combustion chamber, but two horizontally opposed cylinders that are fixed to a common shaft.

Cycling the bolt could perhaps simply be accomplished by using an Automag type blow-forward bolt or Tippmann type blow-back bolt.

For some reason I can't get the idea of a liquid cooled, V8 powered, Tippmann 98 out of my head. :rotfl Then when asking how many RPM a marker gets, it won't be because someone made a type or slip-up while asking about bps. :p

DAMN! How the semi version would work seems absolutely clear in my mind. My attraction to paintball and my Bachelor's in Automotive Design unite!

Think Tippmann is hiring? lol