Who runs the show ?

[p8ntball72]

AO discussion.

Who makes the Rules?

Industry
Promoters
Field owners
Insurance
Players
ASTM

The reason I ask,
there seems to be a "anything goes" attitude at many of the fields that I have played in the last year.

Examples
Allowing ramping/burst modes when Signs clearly state "simi- only"
Barrel swabs as BBD's when it is clearly stated in safety briefing that its a "condom only" field.
Goggle safety is vary lax for advanced players even in posted areas.

Is this just poor field staff or is this kind of thing happening all over?

[PBCapo]

I guess like NPPL and PSP make their own rules, but i think each field is controlled by the owners..and i suppose that is poor reffing, but its also hard to catch sometimes, like ramping when someone is pulling close to 15 or whatever it is set at

[usagi_tetsu]

Sadly, several of those you mentioned are one and the same. The players own the company (or work for it) that makes their equipment and owns the fields they play on, and they also promote the tournament series they play in. Or even run the series, in some cases. About the only ones who stand outside the sphere who have any say of anything is the Insurance folks, as that's a seperate industry. ASTM has written their safety rules, but they are an independent body that merely suggests how things should be made/run - they have no power to enforce the guidelines they have put forth.

So who's responsible? Everyone. We all make the industry and the sport what it is. If you're seeing safety violations, tell whoever it is what they're doing wrong, and if that doesn't work, tell the field owners. If they do nothing about it, leave. Take your money (remember, we vote with our wallets) somewhere else, and let them know what you're doing and why. Best bet, if it bothers you that much, become a ref at that field. Where better to enforce the safety rules as you'd like to see them enforced than working inside the system?

[punkncat]

In many places profitable paintball is becoming harder and harder to acheive with the political environment, development, insurance costs, etc. There is a fine line where field owners want to enforce their rules, but at the same time must cater to the desire of the players who tend to be fickle. If they go to one field and get away with whatever they want, but then another field is strictly enforcing rules, where will many players go?

I think many fields post signs more as CYA, and let the players do what they want. Unless your field just brings more to the table than any other in the area the owner is kind of over a barrel.

As far as ramping and bunkering, I think it should be allowed for those who wish to practice like they play. Most local fields allow it during team practices, and for specific games throughout the day.

[GT]

Who makes the Rules?


$$$$$$

Follow that and you know who makes the rules. I cant tell you for certian is that ASTM has nothing to do with paintball

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Rules for competitive paintball are mainly written by the industry. X-ball is a commercial format, originated and owned by manufacturers. NPPL is heavily dependant on sponsors, who want rules that will allow them top showcase their new products, rather than restrict them to existing technology and a "level playing field".

The problems you describe, p8ntball72, are field-specific. They are found all over, but not at every field. They are not tolerated at my home field, nor at the US field I visit most often (EMR).

[luke]

Barrel swabs as BBD's

Never understood why this is a problem.

A barrel swab shoved all they way to the bolt is safer than any barrel plug or bag IMO....

[FinchMan]

Never understood why this is a problem.

A barrel swab shoved all they way to the bolt is safer than any barrel plug or bag IMO....

only a problem when the swab doesn't go all the back to the bolt to restrict the cycling of the gun. if it's able to fire, then it'll shoot the barrel swab pretty fast.

[Jotsy]

where i usually play we usually just have friendly games between friends and whoever shows up on the day. most of us are regulars and sometimes the refs pretty much just let us be while they tend to the walkon players on the woodsball fields (but usually they have at least one person there to attend to matters such as air fills or buying more paint). everybody is usually very responsible in terms of safety and we always like to jump on the occasional careless or absent minded individual. we usually ref ourselves and rules like ramping and bunkering are decided between the players before the game starts. we don't even keep score ;) i guess we're lucky tho that most of the players at our site are the kind that like to call themselves out.

i think game rules only really need to be enforced when theres an actual competition going on.

[p8ntball72]

I have been under the impression that Insurance makes the rules. they are the ones that will have to pay the claims.

All major paintball Insurance has guidelines that must be followed to qualify for coverage.

I know that tournaments would be cash driven and heavily influenced by industry, but for Local field owners to cater to players while disregarding Insurance guidelines for safety is unacceptable.

I have stopped playing at these establishments... but it just seems that there are lines of irresponsible players to take my place.

To make paintball a legitimate sport, don't we need some governing body to Regulate?

[jenarelJAM]

When I see someone ramping(and its fairly easy to tell. If there is a constant stream with no pauses, its full auto or ramping) or bumping up their velocity, I tell a ref, or report it to the front desk. If they do nothing, I dont come back. I have been a ref before, and its not easy with rec games. Many times its 3-4 refs covering 15 or so people on each side, and spread out over a large field, they miss stuff(i reffed woodsball). All it usually takes is a suggestion to "watch that guy, i think hes ramping" and they either stop the guy, or kick him out.

[Pyroboy597]

Ramping is legal near me, but capped at 15 bps. As for your field, that is just called lazy refs.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

...

To make paintball a legitimate sport, don't we need some governing body to Regulate?

Yes. But the players, teams and promoters would have to buy-in to the idea. And that would mean sacrificing prizes and profits, and playing for trophies and medals instead. Unless you severely restrict the equipment, and limit paint use, paintball is very expensive to play. That encourages teams to want to play for prizes to win back their costs.

Right now, the manufacturers underwrite the major tournaments by providing prizes, which lowers the promoters costs and attracts players, increasing their profits. The manufacturers determine the rules of competitive paintball by deciding which tournaments to support (in those cases where they do not control the tournaments directly).

It might be possible to break the cycle with stock-class tourneys and/or leagues, where per-game costs are negligible. But that same low cost means low profits for promoters, and less money available to organise, advertise and promote this style of play. Add to that the fact that stock-class is relatively less sexy than open-class, and has a steeper learning curve which discourages many new players from trying it.

An independant paintball governing body, and legitimacy as a sport, is thus very unlikely.

[p8ntball72]

Will the industry be responsible for negligence at an event they sponsor?

The NSERA insures my local field, so I checked online some of the criteria that the Insurance Requires.

1. FIELD OPERATION: Strict control must be exercised over all areas including:
(A) Field Entrance (B) Parking areas (C) Staging areas (D) Sales and Service Areas (E) Spectator Areas (F) Playing Fields
2. PERSONNEL: All field staff must be fully and properly trained. Referees and fill station attendants must be sixteen (16)
years of age or older.
3. EMERGENCY PROCEDURE: All field staff must be trained to properly respond in the event of an accident or
emergency and instructed to respond immediately. Field staff must know the exact location of the field telephone and a
readily accessible first aid kit.. Management must fill out and return an Incident Form immediately following all injuries.
4. FIELD ORIENTATION: Prior to the first game, each player must undergo a formal orientation session including: a
detailed explanation of the player safety rules–clearly specifying those rules which result in player ejection, game rules, the
geographical diagram of the field, and emergency procedures. Referees are assigned to each group at this time.
5. BARREL BLOCKING DEVICE REGULATION: The mandatory use of industry-approved Barrel Blocking Devices
[BBD] must be strictly enforced at all times in all non-playing areas. Barrel plugs are no longer considered adequate
protection due to differing barrel sizes and increased rates of fire. Operators must provide barrel covers for all rental
equipment and also for customers to buy if necessary. (Towels, socks, or stick squeegee’s are not considered a BBD!)
6. SAFETY GOGGLES: Mandatory goggle enforcement is required in all areas where “Goggles On” signs are posted.
Industry-approved full-face mask goggle systems must meet or exceed ASTM guidelines which require: Full enclosure of
the eye cavity using .06 lexan lenses secured within frames and to the head with a headband. The face and ear protector
components must be attached securely to the goggle frame to present full coverage (no gaps) to the bottom of the chin,
along the jawbone, temples, and ears. Modifications are prohibited. Wash, disinfect, and inspect goggles regularly.
7. TRIGGER GUARDS: Trigger guards are mandatory on all paintball markers used by participants at your facility. The
trigger guard must be rigid, wider than the trigger area, and enclose the trigger area.
8. SAFETY NETTING: Netting (12’ required, 20’ recommended) must be installed around play areas and must be
maintained and checked regularly. Approved netting and/or 300 feet of open space must surround all areas of play.
NSERA requires each operator to test the netting per ASTM guidelines: “Stand 15’ from netting and shoot 10
shots in a 4” circle at 300 fps. No part of the paintball shell may pass through larger than 3 by 5 mm rectangle.”
Bunkers must be a minimum of 15’ from the netting and spectators must be kept 5’ away from the netting at all times.
9. CHRONOGRAPHING PROCEDURES: Maintain at least one (1) chronograph (preferably two) with a back-up
battery at the field at all times. All paintball markers must be chronographed before players enter the field and prior to
beginning a new set of games. A chronograph referee must be available at all times to strictly enforce velocity guidelines.
Paintball marker velocities must be adjusted so that three (3) consecutive shots through the chronograph do not exceed:
300 (FPS) For outdoor general games and 225-275 (FPS) For indoor games
10. FIELD MAINTAINENCE: Boundaries of all outdoor playing fields must be clearly and continuously marked with
rope, tape, or other highly visible material. The field must be inspected frequently for natural or man-made hazards.
Paintball markers must be cleaned and inspected weekly. A designated staff member must inspect the chronograph, first
aid kit, mobile telephone, scale, fill station, CO2 cylinders, and all field equipment (including safety signs) daily.
11. PLAYER SAFETY RULES: Each player/participant must read the NSERA player safety rules prior to signing the
waiver of liability. The player safety rules must be posted at the field entrance and counter/sales office. Mandatory ejection
(without warning!) of any player that knowingly violates the required safety rules is required—especially mask violations!
12. PAINTBALL MARKERS: Automatic Markers that are in a mode of self loading and shooting at a rate faster than one
round per manual activation of the trigger’s cycle are PROHIBITED. All markers must be operated in semi-automatic
modes only under this program.
14. SAFETY SIGNS: “Goggles On” signs must be posted at every entrance to active play areas. “Barrel Blocking Device”
signs must be posted at every exit of active play areas. “Caution! Paintball Game Area” signs must be posted at any
location where the operator/field manager might expect unauthorized direct access to the active playing field.
15. FILL-STATIONS: Only trained personnel are allowed to perform tank fills. Allowing players to fill their own tanks is
prohibited. Only exception might be when using an attendant at multi-fill air stations and tanks have already been
checked that day. CO2 cylinders must be chained in an upright position. An on-site scale is required to prevent overfills.
TO BE ACCEPTED AS A MEMBER OF NSERA, I FULLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO ABIDE BY THE TERMS OF
THE FIELD SAFETY REQUIREMENTS. I REALIZE THAT FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE TERMS LISTED ABOVE
MAY RESULT IN TERMINATION OF MEMBERSHIP AND ASSOCIATED BENEFITS INCLUDING INSURANCE.

My local field is NEGLAGENT on sections 1,5,6,8,12, and 15.
So I no longer Support that Field owner

[MoeMag]

/\ /\ /\Never in my life have I ever seen such rules!

Fill station attendants!? :rofl:
I do it myself… always have. I would not trust some 16-year-old with my tank.

Formal orientation… yeah right. :spit_take

Netting rules!? We stand and sit in lawn chairs right next to the netting.
Bunkers must be 15’ feet away from netting! That would scare me to death having that much open space behind me (I always go up a side) :wow:

But on another thing about netting… my first time playing speedball, my truck was about 10 ft from a line on the ground marking the “out of bounds.” My truck was regularly covered in paint at the end of each round.

Posted signs!? Ain’t never seen that. :tard:

You have to be kidding me! I am not a newb to paintball; I have played in many different states… I would not play somewhere that up tight.

[p8ntball72]

All fields that carry "paintball specific" Insurance have to follow similar guidelines to maintain coverage.

http://www.cossioinsurance.com/docs/Paintball.pdf
http://www.nsera.com/paintball/pdf/Paintball_App_2004.pdf
http://www.paintball-apl.com/PDF%20Files/2005/APL%20SAFETY%20CERTIFICATION%20RULES%20&%20REQ%2002-07-05.pdf
http://www.paintballsafety.com

[Jeffy-CanCon]

/\ /\ /\Never in my life have I ever seen such rules!

...

You have to be kidding me! I am not a newb to paintball; I have played in many different states… I would not play somewhere that up tight.

I've never seen those rules before, either, though that's not surprising since they are intended for field owners.

The places I play follow those rules quite closely. I've played in two US states and five Canadian provinces and I would not go back to anywhere that didn't put a high priority on my safety.

[pachytriton]

The indoor field near me, Planet Paintball in Lawrence, Mass, has the worst chrono procedure...ever. The chrono is behind the counter, and you give your gun to them before you play your first game and they chrono it and punch your ticket and you're good for the day and never have to chrono again. Anyone can just turn up their velocity at any time and the refs wouldn't know the difference.

[Glickman]

easiest answer ever.


Only 1 group can circumvent all the others.
this group can instantly kill or create this game.

thats the players. :D

[p8ntball72]

Well that seems to be the problem in most cases.

[FinchMan]

i think one of the biggest influences is the PB magazines. Thats where many credit card kids get their first look at speedball. And I'm sure the fact that they magazines are packed full of advertisements with "faster = better" guns really influences the crowds.