30 something BPS = Paint collide in air?

[behemoth]

Someone was saying, a long time ago, that they had a video, where they reached the maximum BPS for a paintball marker

I think it was 30 something, and you could see the balls colliding in mid air...


Anyone know what i'm talking about? Or have a link to a vid?

[electriceel125]

Zakvetter did 34 if im not mistaken.

In a perfect world, (no air resistance) 300Fps/30 bps = 10 feet apart.

[wanna-b-ballin']

no thats BS. not technically possable. if anything, there would be shootdown, and the balls would slow down.
except maybe with an x-valve?

the balls would have to have a ramping velocity to colide in air.

i dont see how it could be a realistic thing to witness.

[68magOwner]

i cought paint colliding mid-air out of my impusle before (vid got deleted when my hard drive crashed)
it was certianly not caused by tremendous ROF (proably ~15 bps) just, the marker skipping a beat, or the ball being mis-shapen or something.

Also, if someone can track down the ne freestyle v8 vid, it has paint colliding in air (its in hish res-slow motion, can see it) however, the balls do not break, just bounce away.

[neppo1345]

Zack Vetter 34 BPS (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8730857470777315524&q=vetter)

I don't see any midairs...

EDIT:

It is physically impossible for a paintball to hit the ball in front of it.

UNLESS There are large shot to shot velocity jumps...

[electriceel125]

Large shot drop then spike. If they just kept dropping they would not hit. It it dropped then spiked then possible i guess.

[etjoyride]

Heh, i wonder what the output on that tank is....

[UTDragun]

Zack Vetter 34 BPS (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8730857470777315524&q=vetter)

I don't see any midairs...

EDIT:

It is physically impossible for a paintball to hit the ball in front of it.

UNLESS There are large shot to shot velocity jumps...
wrong, paintballs would be so close to each other it would "draft" the one infront therefore having less air resistance.

IIRC at ~36 bps balls are 1 mm apart in the breech/barrel

[UTDragun]

Heh, i wonder what the output on that tank is....
2400 IIRC

[UTDragun]

i cought paint colliding mid-air out of my impusle before (vid got deleted when my hard drive crashed)
it was certianly not caused by tremendous ROF (proably ~15 bps) just, the marker skipping a beat, or the ball being mis-shapen or something.

Also, if someone can track down the ne freestyle v8 vid, it has paint colliding in air (its in hish res-slow motion, can see it) however, the balls do not break, just bounce away.
you mean this vid?
http://media.putfile.com/UFS8-First-Look

I only watched it once, wasnt really paying much attn but i didnt see paint coliding

[Pyroboy597]

Ya, the wind resistance from the front ball would not affect the following ones, making them less likely to maintain a more constant velocity longer. I guess it is possible..

[Indignant]

I've seen Zak shoot his gun firsthand, i've never seen anything shoot faster than it, and i've never seen paint colliding with eachother.

[Tao]

If a paintball travels at 300 feet per second or 3600 inches per second and a paintball is 68 caliber (I am a metric person so I assume this is 0.68 inches???) then you would need to fire 5294 (after one second you would have a back to back string of balls 300 feet long :P )paintbals to reach the maximum rate of fire :P
(You would not be able to fire more paintballs once they are back to back in a string.)

Sure they may collide as air resistence slows them down but they would be going at 300FPS when they leave the barrel so at least the barrel won't jam :P

There is a bit of a flaw though since the bolt pushes the balls forward say 2 ball lengths before it will fire the next so I guess the max rate of fire would be 1764. :P

*note max rate of fire is determined by muzzel velocity...


A comment about paint balls colliding- you probably saw them collide with incoming balls. I have see this before as I saw a ball come at me and one of my own hit in in mid air. If two of your balls in a string of fire collide you probably won't notice it since they would mostlikely "kiss" since they would only be going a few feet per second faster or slower relative to each other, so it would be almost impossible for them to break each other...

[neppo1345]

wrong, paintballs would be so close to each other it would "draft" the one infront therefore having less air resistance.

IIRC at ~36 bps balls are 1 mm apart in the breech/barrel

A sphere doesn't create this "drafting" effect you speak of...this isn't nascar. These are airborne objects. The paintball would create a vortex behind it, not speeding the following ball up, but slowing it down if anything. If they weren't spheres and were square at the back, the "draft" might work.

It might "draft" while in the barrel, and for the first few milliseconds outsid of it, but once the purty boundry layer breaks down, so does any draft

[VFX_Fenix]

A comment about paint balls colliding- you probably saw them collide with incoming balls. I have see this before as I saw a ball come at me and one of my own hit in in mid air.

^^
Completely accurate, and I have seen paint strings crossing and had paint breaking when outgoing collides with incoming.

As for two balls colliding from the same string, physcially impossible. Consider that in the time it takes for a paintball to move at rest from the bottom of the stack to a firing position in the breech the last ball shot is already 18 inches down field. This isn't taking into consideration the ammount of time required for the action to reset after the firing event (bolt moving back to open the breech, ball falling to position, firing cylce initiated/travel time of the bolt/hammer to do their thing, etc.)

It would be like claiming the bullets fired from the Phalanx CIWS (~75rps) or XM214 Microgun (~166rps) ran into eachother while traveling to their target after they exit the barrel(s).

[FlawleZ]

ACTUALLY, I've had this happen to me just recently. But it wasn't from firing too fast. I'm thinking I was only hitting 14-15 BPS, but I later found out that it was my LV 10 spring. I used the red spring for my LV 10 in an attempt to make it softer on paint but it ended up hurting the actual overall speed of the gun because once I fired past 10-12 BPS I would randomly have one collide in mid air about 10 feet from my gun. I didn't think the spring would cause this but I switched back to the stock spring and it seems to have cured the problem. I'm thinking the extra tension on the valve was causing it to be much more inconsistent with velocity and was causing drop offs enough to have a second or third paintball at a faster speed than the previous shot and therefore was causing them to collide.

All I know is I've never seen it happen before and it was really strange to see.

[VFX_Fenix]

Are you certian that it was a ball/ball collision and not a ball rupturing of its own accord after exiting the barrel? I've seen broken paint hold together long enough to make it out of the gun then randomly burst in mid air and I suspect this is what some people are interpretting as two balls from the same string causing a mid-air break.

[athomas]

Someone was saying, a long time ago, that they had a video, where they reached the maximum BPS for a paintball marker

I think it was 30 something, and you could see the balls colliding in mid air...



At 30bps the balls are 33.3ms apart no matter what velocity they are traveling. At 33.3ms between shots, the balls would be 10 feet apart when leaving the muzzle of the gun at 300fps. The distance between the balls would decrease as the balls slowed down but the time difference would always be the same. The rate of decelleration for all balls are the same so the 33.3 ms distance will be maintained until the balls actually come to a stop. Only at this point will the trailing ball come in contact with the one in front of it.

[RoamingStorm]

Utdragon they would only draft if they followed in the exact same path as the one before it, which is doubtful. maybe when they are shooting at 34 bps though, then they are close enough to eachother that they might draft.

-RS

[UTDragun]

Utdragon they would only draft if they followed in the exact same path as the one before it, which is doubtful. maybe when they are shooting at 34 bps though, then they are close enough to eachother that they might draft.

-RS
thats what I was saying a little over 36bps


there is a limited rof because you still account for the time that it takes for the ball to accelerate from 0-300fps.

[PBCapo]

you mean this vid?
http://media.putfile.com/UFS8-First-Look

I only watched it once, wasnt really paying much attn but i didnt see paint coliding

did nobody watch this? you can see paint colliding at 2:35, i'm sure its just air resistance mixed with a +-5 fps between the first and second colliding balls

[White_Noise]

if you look at that, there is no way that those 2 balls were going in the same direction. in order to get a ball to go up,and one to go down, youd need to have one hit directly from underneath the other. the only way for this collision to actually happen is if a ball bounced off the garbage can, and hit the oncoming ball.

[PBCapo]

it wouldn't have to hit directly under, any spin on a ball could cause it to go up or down a little bit, and if the ball behind hit the ball in front of it at about 60 degrees down from a plane parallel to the ground, it would cause this deflection...i really dont feel like doing the math to get the exact angle tho

[FSU_Paintball]

When the Osiris came out, they had a video where the paint started spraying. The maker claimed that it was because the paint was firing so fast, one ball was hitting another in front of it.

I called BS and told him if that was the case, he had major inconsistency problems becuase the only way it would happen is if the first ball is going much slower than the second.

He said, no, they just do that at really high speeds.

I called BS on him again, and I still maintain that.

[UTDragun]

When the Osiris came out, they had a video where the paint started spraying. The maker claimed that it was because the paint was firing so fast, one ball was hitting another in front of it.

I called BS and told him if that was the case, he had major inconsistency problems becuase the only way it would happen is if the first ball is going much slower than the second.

He said, no, they just do that at really high speeds.

I called BS on him again, and I still maintain that.
I saw that vid and I just thought it was the gun chopping the paint :tard:

[VFX_Fenix]

Those of you talking about "drafting" of the ball in front. Consider that the wake of each paintball is rediculously small, at 10 feet from the muzzle there's no way "On God's Green Earth" that a paintball could share the turbulance wake of the ball that preceded it. Even with something the size of a car, being able to take advantage of the preceding car's wake still requires that you be somewhere in the neighborhood of a car length or less behind, but for the sake of argument let's say it's ten car lengths. Then consider if a paintball has a similar proportion to its wake then a ball which was going to draft on the preceding ball it would need to be closer than 7 inches to the ball before it. INCHES!!! Not the ten or more feet that actual paint in the air has between balls. In order to achieve that kind of relative distance between the balls you'd need to be shooting at over 500 bps!!!!

eesh...

[SlartyBartFast]

VFX beat me to the punch, but here goes:
And yet more guessing and supposition based on bad physics and wrong assumptions....

IIRC at ~36 bps balls are 1 mm apart in the breech/barrel
That’s so wrong that it's just funny.
36 bps = 1/36s @ 300fps = more than 8ft between each ball.
Even at 300bps, there would be 1 ft between each ball in the string.

Utdragon they would only draft if they followed in the exact same path as the one before it, which is doubtful.
More than doubtful. Impossible or at least highly improbable (where's the infinite improbability generator when you need it. :) ).
First, there's the 'same path'. Vortex shedding is random. To effectively draft, you'd need two random processes to the same. Impossible.
Then, consider if drafting is even possible with a sphere. It may be, but the vortex shedding looks likely to add lots of buffeting.
Then, how do two balls get close enough to draft? If they leave the barrel at the same velocity both are experiencing the same deceleration. So, while the distance decreases between the balls, they'll never get very close before hitting the ground. Impossible.
Then, how close do they have to be in order to draft? Look how close racers on the track or truckers on the highway need to be to experience drafting. Very close. (I've drafted buses on my bicycle. VERY fun, VERY dangerous. You MUST know where all the stop signs are! To benefit from the draft, you have to be within about 15 ft of the back of the bus. Despite the diesel fumes, it's great fun coasting along at 50 kph+ :D)
Safe to assume that Pballs require something less than a half inch between them to experience drafting.You get a half inch between balls at...... (300fps)/(.5/12)ft = 7200bps
Impossible.
(Do three impossible things this morning and top it of with breakfast at Milliways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe... :D)

maybe when they are shooting at 34 bps though, then they are close enough to each other that they might draft.

thats what I was saying a little over 36bps
See above.

there is a limited rof because you still account for the time that it takes for the ball to accelerate from 0-300fps.
There is a limited ROF, but you've got the wrong source. The limit on the ROF for all projectile launchers (firearms, paintball markers, or catapults) is how long it takes to load the next round.

did nobody watch this? you can see paint colliding at 2:35, i'm sure its just air resistance mixed with a +-5 fps between the first and second colliding balls
See above. You can pretty much guarantee that it's due to velocity differences/inconsistency. With a good helping of random coincidence/chance thrown in.
Unless my math is way off....

[VFX_Fenix]

if you look at that, there is no way that those 2 balls were going in the same direction. in order to get a ball to go up,and one to go down, youd need to have one hit directly from underneath the other. the only way for this collision to actually happen is if a ball bounced off the garbage can, and hit the oncoming ball.


it wouldn't have to hit directly under, any spin on a ball could cause it to go up or down a little bit, and if the ball behind hit the ball in front of it at about 60 degrees down from a plane parallel to the ground, it would cause this deflection...i really dont feel like doing the math to get the exact angle tho

White_Noise is correct, the colliding paint was not from the same string, however for the paint to be deflected in such a manner does not require a strike from directly underneath.

Such a result can be visualized by having two billiard balls traveling towards each other on parrallel paths slightly offset.

http://www.humboldt.edu/~mwo5/a5og/AO/Image1.jpg

When the two bodies colide, the vector created from their centers combines with their prior vectors to give them a new vector and they deflect along these new vectors.

http://www.humboldt.edu/~mwo5/a5og/AO/Image2.jpg

The above situation illustrates two bodies with nearly identical vectors approaching eachother.

However if one vector was significantly larger than the other (i.e. an incoming paintball from the Freestyle and a paintball which had bounced off the garbage can) the net result would be similar, however the ball which had a smaller vector would have the horizontal component of its vector reverse and would appear to be traveling in the same direction as the ball with the larger horizontal component. (so instead of coming towards the shooter it gets knocked back away from the shooter)

EDIT: Please note illustrations are just that, they are intended to convey some meaning graphically, not that they are 100% accurate. I suspect I'll get someone smart allecky who'll say "you're vectors are ALL wrong, they'd deflect at this XX angle." In reality the illustration should have the balls bouncing back the way they came at an angle.... but you guys get the idea...

[MarkM]

You all can argue until the cows come home about vortex shreading, wake and vectors you are all looking way too closely at the problem and then attempting to get a mathematical equation to fit.
The only way a paintball in a so called constant string is to hit another ball in that same string is if the string is
A: Not as consitant as were are being told or
B: One or more balls are corkscrewing on their flight path and a following paintball is actually flying straight or
C: A paintball in the string is defective enough to burst in mid flight.
In a real world game balls do indeed hit each other but then only when the balls hitting each other are being fired from opposite directions.

[ThePixelGuru]

I don't think it's very likely at all that a couple paintballs managed to bounce off the can or whatever they were firing at, head straight back at the shooter, hit another paintball in midair and bounce off. C'mon guys. Bounces aren't too likely to begin with, and they usually happen on soft surfaces and/or at an angle. How many times have you seen a ball at 300FPS hit a hard surface and bounce straight back? And then you expect us to believe that two balls hitting head-on (combined speed of 600FPS here) aren't going to break, but instead bounce off?

It's most likely that the colliding paint was going the same direction and only hit due to velocity inconsitancy. There's just no other possible way for it to happen.

This could be Deep Blue material, though. I'd like to see some of the more scientifically-inclined among us weigh in on the issue.

[UTDragun]

I own Utdragun
Ok, well I was obviously wrong, which is why im still learning, I take physics next year so I was going off wrong information told by word of mouth.

[UTDragun]

There is a limited ROF, but you've got the wrong source. The limit on the ROF for all projectile launchers (firearms, paintball markers, or catapults) is how long it takes to load the next round.


well I was not counting load speed, thats obviously the first limiting factor, considering its very hard to feed over 30 bps as it is. but if you took that out as well as the force on the pb coming into the breech from the stack and the forward pressure from the bolt, it would be limited on how fast the air could accelerate the ball.

[athomas]

I don't think it's very likely at all that a couple paintballs managed to bounce off the can or whatever they were firing at, head straight back at the shooter, hit another paintball in midair and bounce off. C'mon guys. Bounces aren't too likely to begin with, and they usually happen on soft surfaces and/or at an angle. How many times have you seen a ball at 300FPS hit a hard surface and bounce straight back? And then you expect us to believe that two balls hitting head-on (combined speed of 600FPS here) aren't going to break, but instead bounce off?

It's most likely that the colliding paint was going the same direction and only hit due to velocity inconsitancy. There's just no other possible way for it to happen.

This could be Deep Blue material, though. I'd like to see some of the more scientifically-inclined among us weigh in on the issue.

I've had paintballs hit hard surfaces and bounce back towards me. It happens more often with cheap paint.

[68magOwner]

you mean this vid?
http://media.putfile.com/UFS8-First-Look

I only watched it once, wasnt really paying much attn but i didnt see paint coliding

yes, that vid, at 2:36 in the vid, it has a slow-mo down the barrel shot, and you can see 2 balls collide, neither break, but they shoot off in opposite directions after impact.

[RRfireblade]

It's true....happens to me all the time.

I shoot so fast that the balls in front create a time and space vortex that envelope the following balls and transport them to a point in time in the very near future (small vortex apparently) ...which sometimes , unfortunately puts it in the exact physical location as the ball that created the vortex in the first place. Since we know thru science and James T. Kirk , no two bodies can occupy the same space (except for Kirk and a sexy green alien intruder) one of the 2 balls comits suicide in order to save it's bretheren.

Pretty simple really.

[Jotsy]

which is why, after thorough research and testing, the major leagues are capped at 15, and most guns will never shoot above 30 bps (except for our magic mags of course :headbang: ). in fact, if you manage to get up to a sustained 35bps, you may very well end up shooting yourself in the back of the head. :ninja:

[White_Noise]

for the collision in the vid that i commented on:

i do know that the ball wouldnt have to have a direct hit, (in the case of them coming from opposite directions, they would bounce backwards, or actually break on each other) (in the highly improbable, nearly impossible case that they were coming from the same direction however, they would need to somehow have one fall onto the other, while the other is lifted up to cause that kind of a deflection.)

as for the people who doubt the ability to bounce from a garbage can: ive done it many times, off garbage cans, hyperball tubes, oil drums, etc.

also, in the video, they specifically state that the pain they are using was from 2004. ive found that in general, older paint seems to be more bouncy when it hits the target. however, it is possible that they did switch paint, etc. it is probably safe to assume that it was the paint they were talking about.

[SCpoloRicker]

Someone was saying, a long time ago, that they had a video, where they reached the maximum BPS for a paintball marker

I think it was 30 something, and you could see the balls colliding in mid air...


Anyone know what i'm talking about? Or have a link to a vid?

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4795/piraterly6gb.gif

[SCpoloRicker]

It's true....happens to me all the time.

I shoot so fast that the balls in front create a time and space vortex that envelope the following balls and transport them to a point in time in the very near future (small vortex apparently) ...which sometimes , unfortunately puts it in the exact physical location as the ball that created the vortex in the first place. Since we know thru science and James T. Kirk , no two bodies can occupy the same space (except for Kirk and a sexy green alien intruder) one of the 2 balls comits suicide in order to save it's bretheren.

Pretty simple really.

/worth repeating ;)
//Schroedinger??

[slade]

Someone was saying, a long time ago, that they had a video, where they reached the maximum BPS for a paintball marker

I think it was 30 something, and you could see the balls colliding in mid air...


Anyone know what i'm talking about? Or have a link to a vid?
it happened to me when i first got my borg actually. it wasnt too consistant cause it wasnt taken care of, and when the air pressure started dropping the balls would shoot at drastically different speeds. a few collided in midair, and i thought i was chopping at first but when i took off the barrel it was clean.


It's true....happens to me all the time.

I shoot so fast that the balls in front create a time and space vortex that envelope the following balls and transport them to a point in time in the very near future (small vortex apparently) ...which sometimes , unfortunately puts it in the exact physical location as the ball that created the vortex in the first place. Since we know thru science and James T. Kirk , no two bodies can occupy the same space (except for Kirk and a sexy green alien intruder) one of the 2 balls comits suicide in order to save it's bretheren.

Pretty simple really.
have you been talking to doc recently?

[ThePixelGuru]

I'd like to see some of the more scientifically-inclined among us weigh in on the issue.

I shoot so fast that the balls in front create a time and space vortex that envelope the following balls and transport them to a point in time in the very near future (small vortex apparently) ...which sometimes , unfortunately puts it in the exact physical location as the ball that created the vortex in the first place. Since we know thru science and James T. Kirk , no two bodies can occupy the same space (except for Kirk and a sexy green alien intruder) one of the 2 balls comits suicide in order to save it's bretheren.
Now that's what I'm talkin' about. :headbang::headbang::headbang:

[VFX_Fenix]

Woo hoo, spread sheets!

Anyway, so here's some raw number crunching, and I admit that I'm very suprised... well... not really... but the long and short, unless you have some serious... and I mean SERIOUS velocity issues, this should never ever happen over normal paintball distances. Also bear in mind that deceleration caused by drag is not anywhere in this equation. Anyway...

Orange indicates more or less typical close, Yellow medium/long, and the Grey line at the bottom is more or less maximum range of a paintball. Numbered ball columns are all assumed to be the ball preceding ball X. Blue boxes are when Ball X would arrive at a numbered ball when Ball X is fired imediately after the numbered ball. All time intervals are set to 36bps (0.0277sec) and the numbers in the columns represent feet traveled by their respective balls.

http://www.humboldt.edu/~mwo5/a5og/AO/collision.jpg

[behemoth]

Holy hell, i was just asking for a vid, someone said they had around a while ago..

I didnt expect a philosophy debate :D

[warpspyder]

Zakvetter did 34 if im not mistaken.

In a perfect world, (no air resistance) 300Fps/30 bps = 10 feet apart.


And does paint follow a predictable path? Hardly. It would take an extreme set of circumstances for paint to collide. Dumb luck, and a horribly inconsistent gun.

[athomas]

I like the chart.

It shows that there is a possibility of a trailing ball catching a ball fired before it. However, even major velocity fluctuations of 25fps made that impact occur over 90 feet out. A velocity idfference of only 25 fps wouldn't cause the ball to break upon impact.