Reinventing the Classic Mag

[Severe]

I know this has been talked about a few times but I wanted to throw my .02 in.

I can't speak for other regions of the country, but here in central NC, and visiting regional scenario games, I've noticed a resurgence of interest in the classic mags. I do see a fair share of the Tac-Ones (more for the body than the valve I suspect) and the occasional RT Pro/ULE types. I personally own a classic and a Tac-One and love them both, but I favor my classic for it's consistency.

In talking with a friend this morning we started throwing ideas on what we would do to make the classic mag more marketable. Now, I don't profess to be some paintball business guru, so these are just ideas. But the underlying concept was that we both think the classic mag is a great marker in it's own right. But we felt it need to be reintroduced to all of the up and coming players who are discovering woods/scenario and rec ball in general.

Anyway, here's a couple of the ideas we came up with and I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts.

Release an aluminum classic valve. 14bps is plenty for a mech marker and the ability to use CO2 goes a long way. The main motivation for the move to aluminum is not to save weight but to save on production costs. Can an aluminum classic valve be produced for noticeable savings over steel?

Include the Level 10 bolt on ALL mags. Why they don't do this now, I don't understand.

Have a carbon fiber version of the intelliframe be a stock option. Again, thinking cost savings while offering better out-of-box options. The single trigger frame should still be available.

Possibly replace the stock classic rail with a carbon fiber RT type rail. It should reduce production costs and be just as durable.

Make the body offerings selectable. If possible a modular breech system (left, right and center feed offerings.)

There's nothing really revolutionary here. Just a more practical Pro Classic with a few new options. The last thing I would change is the name. And saying the Pro Classic is pro without the level 10 as part of the kit is just weak IMHO. Something simple like...SixtyEight Mag...anything!

Ultimately, I'd love to see a slighting modified classic mag, refreshed, and in an offering that would appeal to new and old players alike. And ideally at or below the cost of the current Pro Classic.

Lastly, some inexpensive licensed add-on products. I see items like the DeadlyWind DTI2 for $85 and wonder why I can't buy a replacement tactical type body for my classic at the same price. Is that a licensing issue?

Anyway, I'll throw this in to the lion's den for consumption. Let's see what you guys/gals come up with.

[pachytriton]

i agree with most of what you said, except the carbon fiber rail-that just doesn't seem practical. Also, the reason DW bodies were so expensive was the cost of the slug bodies that they were milled from, when you think about it though, they were a reasonable price. A ule body and aftermarket rail costs ~$220, add the custom milling and anno to that and $295 for a ule anno'd dallara and $335 for a ule, anno'd karta is reasonable. It's too bad the slug's have been discontinued. I think the price of this would be difficult to keep down, however, because AGD stuff is usually made in smaller batches. It would be cool to see a new marker though.

[minimag03]

I think there was a thread awhile back where this was mentioned. Must concluded that even though it was a good idea to us, it wouldn't be to the rest of the paintball world.

Not a side not, I have always thought a stock carbon fiber, plastic, or whatever you want to call it, double trigger would be a good idea. They should keep the grip design the same, so the Intelliframe would still be considered an upgrade.

[K Wolf]

I'd like to see a rail similar to the rtp w/o the fat wings under the valve. It should be milled to clear WL & WR ULE bodies. I'd also like to see a sight mount (with a M1913 Picatinny rail machined into it at a downward angle) that attached to the above rail like the rtp mount. That way I could mount a reddot type sight w/o having to use up ALL of the sight's vert. adjustment.

[AGDRetro]

An aluminum AIR Valve would be a nice touch. We have to get away from this concept of the 50 year paintball gun. Yes these stainless valves hold up better, but is the alternative 6061 Aluminum that weak?
Aluminum AIR/Classic Valve = http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

The price of slugs and bodies in general seems to be heavily dictated by the type of metal. We can immediately rule out stainless IMO. It isn't what the market wants, so why waste our time with it. 6061 Aluminum generally seems to provide a better anodized finish and is cheaper than AGD's current 7075. Of course we loose a degree of machinabilty and strength. So the question is do we save more time & machine parts making 7075 bodies, or do we keep material costs down using 6061? The "big" concern is of course does the Mag require the strength of 7075?
6061 Slug bodies = http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif

Level 10 stock? The truth of the matter is too many people without brains think they are an airsmith. Mags were SUPER simple in the beginning, but the Level 10 especially has proven that you need some degree of intelligence to properly setup a Mag as the design advanced. Even tuned from the factory, it would not be long till little Johnny decides his Mag needs a tune up and he better tear it all apart and god knows what... then all the sudden its "OMFG, my Mag blows donkeys, it chops all the time! Mags suck, blah blah blah!" And you know it's true!
Level 10 stock feature = http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif Too many retards out there!

[ultralight]

i like the idea of an aluminum classic valve.

i'm not sure how i feel about the LV10 standard. mine wasn't that hard to tune, and i haven't used a LV7 at higher rates of fire.

i suppose another way to ensure smooth break free operation would be a factory built "spydermag" with eyes, made possible because the ult works with the classic valve.

a CF double trigger frame would be nice, possibly modeled after dye's ultralight frame, or an 86* hybrid frame. it may be percieved as cheap and plastic though, look at all of the heat the ion got. (i know, the ion's shell is plastic, but that one cosmetic part brought a ton of criticism.)

it seems to me that you could go a step further and make a one piece body/rail like the micromag (just not so blockish).

the biggest improvement i could forsee is some sort of attractive way to rout the airline. possibly through the frame?


but of course, this has all been brought up before.

the aluminum valve is a good idea though.

[peewee]

With the large re-expansion of milisim games & woodsball, I was starting to think about an all carbon fiber body/trigger frame. The flat textured look of the carbon fiber would be perfect for woodsball add a double trigger (redesign the current base trigger) right out the gate. Steel braided hose & away you go. The barrel would need to be looked at hard. Traditional mag or cocker thread? Maybe a cocker threaded sleeve that slid in thru the back of the body & is held in place by the valve.

[hobbesTZ]

The best way to get it into peoples hands is to have Smart Parts, Dye, or Tippmann market it. No matter what you do to it the average player would probably be skeptical about anything made by Airgun Designs.

[slade]

ahhhh... >.<


Release an aluminum classic valve. 14bps is plenty for a mech marker and the ability to use CO2 goes a long way. The main motivation for the move to aluminum is not to save weight but to save on production costs. Can an aluminum classic valve be produced for noticeable savings over steel?

Include the Level 10 bolt on ALL mags. Why they don't do this now, I don't understand.

Have a carbon fiber version of the intelliframe be a stock option. Again, thinking cost savings while offering better out-of-box options. The single trigger frame should still be available.

Possibly replace the stock classic rail with a carbon fiber RT type rail. It should reduce production costs and be just as durable.

Make the body offerings selectable. If possible a modular breech system (left, right and center feed offerings.)

There's nothing really revolutionary here. Just a more practical Pro Classic with a few new options. The last thing I would change is the name. And saying the Pro Classic is pro without the level 10 as part of the kit is just weak IMHO. Something simple like...SixtyEight Mag...anything!

Ultimately, I'd love to see a slighting modified classic mag, refreshed, and in an offering that would appeal to new and old players alike. And ideally at or below the cost of the current Pro Classic.

Lastly, some inexpensive licensed add-on products. I see items like the DeadlyWind DTI2 for $85 and wonder why I can't buy a replacement tactical type body for my classic at the same price. Is that a licensing issue?
an aluminum classic valve cant be produced for less than the x-valve. the x-valve is a different design, but no more expensive to machine or produce. its been talked about before. dont bring it up again.

why this obsession with carbon fiber? are you honestly saying that a carbon fiber rail could be produced to the necessary tolerances for a price less than 6061?

please tell me you were kidding about choosing between left/right/vert feed. that would cost so much more to produce, and there is absolutely know demand. almost no one uses left or right feed anymore, and not many use mags.

if you want to take a hammer to an ion body to fit it on a classic mag, be my guest. until then, on a mag you have to replace the body, while ions use plastic or aluminum shells.


An aluminum AIR Valve would be a nice touch. We have to get away from this concept of the 50 year paintball gun. Yes these stainless valves hold up better, but is the alternative 6061 Aluminum that weak?
Aluminum AIR/Classic Valve = http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

The price of slugs and bodies in general seems to be heavily dictated by the type of metal. We can immediately rule out stainless IMO. It isn't what the market wants, so why waste our time with it. 6061 Aluminum generally seems to provide a better anodized finish and is cheaper than AGD's current 7075. Of course we loose a degree of machinabilty and strength. So the question is do we save more time & machine parts making 7075 bodies, or do we keep material costs down using 6061? The "big" concern is of course does the Mag require the strength of 7075?
6061 Slug bodies = http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif
gah. aluminum valves are not a matter of feasability, they are a matter of (lack of) demand.

6061 has better machining properties than 7075. from what youve said, just stop yourself right now. do you honestly think AGD produced a product before deciding which would be more practical, 6061 or 7075? your questions are entirely unnecessary.

[Banshee23]

If possible a modular breech system (left, right and center feed offerings.)


Xmags already have this system. People have asked before why an aftermarket dealer hasn't come out with something similar & it comes down to AGD Europe owning the rights to the system & needing their permission. I believe AGD would need to get permission also, AGD & AGDE are seperate entities.




Ultimately, I'd love to see a slighting modified classic mag, refreshed, and in an offering that would appeal to new and old players alike. And ideally at or below the cost of the current Pro Classic.


So you want all of these new features produced & thrown onto the mag & then have it be cheaper?!? Aluminum classics are going to cost just as much as X-valves, carbon fiber rails are not going to be anywhere near cheap, & neither would the carbon intelliframes. Oh yeah, & have AGD throw in the Lvl 10 system for nothing out of the good of their hearts... Last I checked AGD is a commercial business, not a charity. Some of these things would be nice but if they did happen I would expect to have to pay a decent amount extra.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

i like the idea of an aluminum classic valve.

i'm not sure how i feel about the LV10 standard. mine wasn't that hard to tune, and i haven't used a LV7 at higher rates of fire.

i suppose another way to ensure smooth break free operation would be a factory built "spydermag" with eyes, made possible because the ult works with the classic valve.

a CF double trigger frame would be nice, possibly modeled after dye's ultralight frame, or an 86* hybrid frame. it may be percieved as cheap and plastic though, look at all of the heat the ion got. (i know, the ion's shell is plastic, but that one cosmetic part brought a ton of criticism.)

it seems to me that you could go a step further and make a one piece body/rail like the micromag (just not so blockish).

the biggest improvement i could forsee is some sort of attractive way to rout the airline. possibly through the frame?


but of course, this has all been brought up before.

the aluminum valve is a good idea though.

Aside from all of the other things others have mentioned... And perhaps in a way a restatement of the ones already made...

The parts being used for all currently produced mags are in existance. This leads to reduced production costs, since wherever AGD orders them from still has the tooling to make them (If they have even run out in some cases...) Doc's Machine used to have a page on the matter in the Frequently Asked Tinkerer section (Which has been out of service for far too long!)

Carbon fiber in a true form is HELLA expensive... not just the material itself, but the schedule development (i.e. how the heck do you lay it out for your pattern?) as well... Engineers need to eat, too. ;)

As for the other comments, seeing the kind of abuse I see on Bicycles at one of my jobs, Carbon fiber tech has a ways from being suitable for paintball gun bodies. It could be used for some parts... but an area like that that sees so much stress, it's more economical to do an aluminum block/ream/mill or Extrusion than a Carbon construction... unless you knew you were going to have the next big thing... And even then, SP Went with just a 'standard' Composite instead of Carbon fiber. ;)

I love the mag, but without a substantial improvement to the design, I have to wonder whether a mechanical Ion would be better.

[Severe]

So you want all of these new features produced & thrown onto the mag & then have it be cheaper?!? Aluminum classics are going to cost just as much as X-valves, carbon fiber rails are not going to be anywhere near cheap, & neither would the carbon intelliframes. Oh yeah, & have AGD throw in the Lvl 10 system for nothing out of the good of their hearts... Last I checked AGD is a commercial business, not a charity. Some of these things would be nice but if they did happen I would expect to have to pay a decent amount extra.

As far as the aluminum valves, I've never seen any specifics but I remember reading TK saying that using aluminum was cheaper. I don't recall if it was substantially or not, but there was a cost savings associated with it.

When I mention carbon fiber, I'm talking the material that the stock single trigger are made with. I don't think this is the same CF as say the Trek OCLV type mountain bikes and such, and I've got to believe that molding a functional wingless RT type rail out of it would reduce cost but I have no clue how much. Same goes for a stock double trigger type intelliframe. As far as a composite body, I'm no clue if that's a viable option or not.

I see that several people are skeptical about including the Level 10 as stock. If your sole reason is people are not technical, then I'm not buying it. Reduce the number of carriers to 5 or so, the ones that you might actually need, include more o-rings and some good instructions and go with it. Many players are extremely technically competent. And those that aren't will generate business for their local stores....just like they do with every other marker on the market. Think Spyder ACS and Tippmann ACT.

A lot of my recommendations were to allow AGD to reduce the production cost of the Classic type mag but re-introduce it to the market with new features.

I'm not really suggesting that this be a mech Ion but more of a slightly enhanced Pro Classic. Frankly, I don't believe that AGD is any longer competitive in the arms race that is speedball. But in the recreational and scenario arena their markers continue to shine and, from what I can tell, grow in interest.

[AGDRetro]

ahhhh... >.<
6061 has better machining properties than 7075. from what youve said, just stop yourself right now. do you honestly think AGD produced a product before deciding which would be more practical, 6061 or 7075? your questions are entirely unnecessary.

Am I stupid or something? Maybe I am, just tell me... I'll admit it :D I've always been told 7075 was easier on the tools done to do the machining :confused: But I guess I could be wrong seeing as I'm no machinist! I trust AGD did their research, all I really want to know is why they did it they way they did I'm sure there is a logical answer to be had from Tom... there always is.

[slade]

Am I stupid or something? Maybe I am, just tell me... I'll admit it :D I've always been told 7075 was easier on the tools done to do the machining :confused: But I guess I could be wrong seeing as I'm no machinist! I trust AGD did their research, all I really want to know is why they did it they way they did I'm sure there is a logical answer to be had from Tom... there always is.
sorry, i guess i shouldnt have listened to others on AO, 7075 does have better machining properties than 6061. the thing is though, your line of thinking isnt wrong, its just that its irrelevant. you were speaking as if AGD hadnt thought through their material choices and decided on 7075 for a reason, because what your post was essentially saying was that AGD made a bad choice.

[GT]

All AL classic mag offered in a litany of different colors. IF CCI can offer dozens of different annos for less than 50 bucks why can't AGD?

offer a tank. body, and trigger upgrade, as well as 3rd party options


Problem is there are a litany of road blocks invovled with actualy pushing the product

1. there needs to be a real marketing campign. It could even contain AGDs (un)official slogan, The Anti-Hype

2. offer excellent dealer support. At the end of the day a dealer doesnt care what gun they sell as long as they make money. Offer dealers incentives they can't refuse. We all know AGD makes great products, but it is impartive that the product don the prettiest dress when it is sitting at the front of the glass case at your local merchant.

3. mass merchant. Classics always work. Offer a non-lvlx varient specfically for the wal-mart/sports authority/target/academy. Low reurns are key in these store fronts.

[hobbesTZ]

It would help if Classics were more CO2 friendly. It'd probably need to come with an expansion chamber.

[AGDRetro]

It would help if Classics were more CO2 friendly. It'd probably need to come with an expansion chamber.

The two classics I had only spent time with me during summer months and it was not untill I was reffing a "big game" at one of my local fields yesturday that I truly realized how much the classics truly disliked CO2 in cold weather...

[GT]

classics truly disliked CO2 in cold weather...


running an anti siphon?

[peewee]

Mike has fostered a long standing relationship with his annoers. But remember most people want to "re-annodize" a standing marker. It also matters how much cleanup needs to be done to the parts before anno. Mike takes paticular care to make sure that the parts are the best he can make with no tooling marks etc before they go to anno.