What does supporting NPPL give to you?

[Lohman446]

I decided to start a tangent. According to numbers posted in this thread http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2120170#post2120170 NPPL pays back about 19% of its entrance fees in prize money. That means in addition to all money from sponsors, id card sales, spectator seat sales, vendor fees it takes 81% of the players money to run the tournament. Over 50% of entrance fees come from D2 and D3 who get about 13% of the prize money given out. D3 actually pays in about 28% of the entrance fees and gets back less than 1% of the prize money. In fact, according to those numbers D3 players paid in $142,350 and got back (or were supposed to) $7,500 in prizes. Thats a payback percentage of just over 5% for the entire division. This does not take into consideration any of the rights you may give the NPPL to use your play to promote itself, or to allow others the same right.

I doubt you would go to a local tournament that took in $1,000 in entrance fees and gave out a total of $50 in prizes. Perhaps, for a fun tournament where entrance was low enough you might, but lets face it, NPPL is not known for low affordable entrance fees.

So... I ask you, what does supporting the NPPL as a D2 or D3 level player give you? What is the advantage to you of doing it? You would see better payback percentages at many of the local levels.

I went a step further in these thoughts

Ok.. now I'm ready to discuss payback percentages, the more and more I think about it the more I think I need to be actively promoting my own series. And my posts historical show that I side on business owners and acknowledge the vast amount of overhead that this business takes. I'm not totally naive to it.

NPPL made (pre overhead) in entrance fees alone 400K off of this event.

They made money off ID cards (no idea how much)

They also got money from sponsors (no idea how much)

They also got money from spectators (no idea how much)

They also got money from vendors (no idea how much)

They offered no inventory themselves (I assume) subletting this responsibility to the vendors.

I would say it is a conservative estimate, and likely laughable conservative, to say that, after paying out prizes they had 500K to work with to provide venue, fields, refs, staff, insurance (for there own liability, I doubt they covered you at all) and air. I bet you there are decent fields that have a smaller annual operating budget... What were there profits off a one week event I wonder?

[RRfireblade]

What can you say....they rip the players off each year and have been forever.

Guess what, the sheep still come back to graze every year.

So who's the guilty party?

[Lohman446]

What can you say....they rip the players off each year and have been forever.

Guess what, the sheep still come back to graze every year.

So who's the guilty party?

Its sad... I loved the big events, I went and paid the money only because I wanted the experience of playing the game there. My teams do not stand a chance of winning (generally) and it was about the experience. I just assumed other teams in my division were doing ok. Looking at hte numbers they may not be. Its too bad, I loved the "big events" and the fun around them. I'm thinking I may just look at one or two out of state tournaments, travel to them, have fun, and not worry about the national level ones...

I guess I never looked at it from a financial stand point, and it sucks when I do...

[RRfireblade]

I agree.

For many years there have been certain people who have tried the strighten this kinda thing out...right from the biggining actually. The problem is that paintball on the Pro level is run,controlled,dominated by a fairly small handfull of overly powerful companies/distributors ( I'm sure you know who they are) and no single small group or persons is going to cut in on their action.

Anyone see the movie Tucker?

[manike]

I don't think 'winning' Division 3 should get you ANY monetary award at all. Just props.

If you 'win' :rolleyes: division 3 that still means you only came 149th in the whole event...

Why should that be worth more than the last place in Division 2 etc.?

[manike]

What were there profits off a one week event I wonder?

That you even posted this line makes me sick. It takes a crew of many people a whole year to arrange and organise these events. To try and imply there was only 1 weeks worth of work is horrendous and a misjustice to the work of those involved. :cuss:

[FreakBaller12]

The only way to get a straight number of profit to prize to cost percentage is to get a straight non-propaganda answer from those elite few that hold those numbers. Speculation of the viewer, player, and outsiders means little to nothing of the truth. End of story.

[p8ntball72]

That you even posted this line makes me sick. It takes a crew of many people a whole year to arrange and organise these events. To try and imply there was only 1 weeks worth of work is horrendous and a misjustice to the work of those involved. :cuss:

So The hard working NPPL "Crew" promote 5-6 events a year.

and by Lohman's math at 500k per event... 3 mill+ a season? WOW not to shabby

[manike]

I'm not sure if I remember correctly but that 'crew' consists of 12 full time, and then approximately 100 part time at each event.

There is far more to the numbers than the list above shows.

I know that last year the PSP made a loss doing all the events it did.

Neither series is making the 'huge profits' you guys seem to think they are.

[p8ntball72]

the amount of money the NPPL and PSP make from events is really Trivial at this point.

Be it the front end or the back end, Promoters make money. They wouldn't do it if they didn't.
I'm sure those 12 full time employees don't have to work 2 Jobs to attend events like many of the D3 teams do.

[manike]

They don't always make money. As I pointed out, last year the PSP lost money. I know the first year the Pure Promotions crew did the NPPL they lost money...

[SlartyBartFast]

Neither series is making the 'huge profits' you guys seem to think they are.

But, the question of "who is supporting who?" is still valid.

Support events at F1 races, possibly one of the most expensive sports in the world, don't support F1 in any way financially. They serve as filler and testing ground for track and officials.

Besides paintball, what other sport has the lower levels of competition directly support and bear the weight of the "professional" level?

[Lohman446]

That you even posted this line makes me sick. It takes a crew of many people a whole year to arrange and organise these events. To try and imply there was only 1 weeks worth of work is horrendous and a misjustice to the work of those involved. :cuss:

You're actually right on this and it could be taken that way. Let me rephrase it to an event open to the public for one week, which is what I meant, it is a one week long event. I'm not naive enough to not realize that there is long term planning that goes into these events, and that setting it up undoubtedly requires a lot of time and equipment. You are right, there is a tremendous amount of work done by the staff of the NPPL to set up the events (not considering the work the vendors put into it). Actual setting of the fields and netting takes time, and trained workers, likely contracted out to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. No doubt there is staff that works at securing locations / insurance / promoting / normal business stuff as well. My statement was not meant to disavow that work, though it did. I still feel, in the grand scheme the teams, especially the D2 and D3 teams are supporting an unfair burden of the costs.

[Lohman446]

I don't think 'winning' Division 3 should get you ANY monetary award at all. Just props.

If you 'win' :rolleyes: division 3 that still means you only came 149th in the whole event...

Why should that be worth more than the last place in Division 2 etc.?

Agreed... make D2 and D3 like college and highschool sports. Or even community sports (think rec leagues) No money for prizes...

BTW - my daughters soccer league with practices twice a week and events every Saturday for three months costs $40 + equipment. I'm willing to pay all equipment and consumables (paint), and even pay for air fills. Is NPPL going to give me a team event for even $100 / player?

College players are often given a lot of financial help in the way of either travels or scholarships...

[Crazy]

College players are often given a lot of financial help in the way of either travels or scholarships...

Maybe for large NCAA sports... and why do you think they do that? Because the publicity of having a good team can draw more people to your school. What would the NPPL get out of giving you a cheap tournament besides little to no profit, and no money to pay for the event necessitates?

[Lohman446]

Maybe for large NCAA sports... and why do you think they do that? Because the publicity of having a good team can draw more people to your school. What would the NPPL get out of giving you a cheap tournament besides little to no profit, and no money to pay for the event necessitites?

What do I get out of giving the NPPL the money it takes to support pro players knowing I never intend to join there ranks? What does supporting NPPL do for me?

Lets forget the help that college athletes (a select few) receive. Why should I support the NPPL?

[Crazy]

What do I get out of giving the NPPL the money it takes to support pro players knowing I never intend to join there ranks? What does supporting NPPL do for me?


Play to win. Money, publicity, sponsors, skill.

[Lohman446]

Play to win. Money, publicity, sponsors, skill.

Money - in D2 and D3 that money is trivial. Trivial enough that it should simply be done away with. Publicity, maybe - I'll give that to you borderline... Skill... I can get and hone skill without the NPPL. The investment to return rate is far greater at some of the local tournaments I can attend as far as money.

[p8ntball72]

Why should I support the NPPL?

Don't, and convince more player to do the same..

Then lets all sit back and watch the industry Tank. :headbang:

[Crazy]

Money - in D2 and D3 that money is trivial. Trivial enough that it should simply be done away with. Publicity, maybe - I'll give that to you borderline... Skill... I can get and hone skill without the NPPL. The investment to return rate is far greater at some of the local tournaments I can attend as far as money.


Done away with? It barely covers an events costs as it is. Why not congradulate the winners with a free event basically. Bottom line, if your not there to win, show the industry what your there for, get sponsors, and move up promoting them and helping their sales and profits, mine as well play the rookie/novice three at the local spool field.

[Lohman446]

Done away with? It barely covers an events costs as it is. Why not congradulate the winners with a free event basically. Bottom line, if your not there to win, show the industry what your there for, get sponsors, and move up promoting them and helping their sales and profits, mine as well play the rookie/novice three at the local spool field.

I would say the airball fields around me are as nice as any I have ever seen at any local event and were of far better quality than the ones I saw at the last NPPL sactioned event I was at. So the NPPL is players supporting it only for the chance to move upward in level? Thats all they offer me?

[Stealth Fighter]

We need team owners, and a players union, much like the NFL. If there is a players union for the NPPL, I would have the head representative's head on my trophy wall.

[Crazy]

I would say the airball fields around me are as nice as any I have ever seen at any local event and were of far better quality than the ones I saw at the last NPPL sactioned event I was at. So the NPPL is players supporting it only for the chance to move upward in level? Thats all they offer me?


Since when are they there to serve you, and just you? What tournament that is put on anywhere in the United States is not intended to make money?

Get better and play D1, I've seen and known many players that have gone from D3 all the way up to D1, Semi-Pro, and Pro.

[Lohman446]

Since when are they there to serve you, and just you? What tournament that is put on anywhere in the United States is not intended to make money?

Get better and play D1, I've seen and known many players that have gone from D3 all the way up to D1, Semi-Pro, and Pro.

I have no problem with making money. I have a problem with balancing the tournament on the backs of the D2 and D3 players. They are not there to serve me and just me, but undoutebdly there are others like me. I at this point am taking a stance that I refuse to support the D1 / Pro players of today until they show me why I should.

[Crazy]

!) Practice them at fields(non-nppl; so you save money)
2) Get better
3) Win the higher classification


...

[Lohman446]

!) Practice them at fields(non-nppl; so you save money)
2) Get better
3) Win the higher classification


...

Its not about the cash... lets start there. Its about the balancing of league on the back of the "recreational level" players for the benefit of the pro players and league. Thats my problem. As a D2 and D3 player NPPL offers me very little in exchange for the amount of money I hand them.

[Crazy]

So don't play then.

As i stated before, if you do win these classification it helps imensely when getting sponsors, which helps make paintball cheaper for your team.

[Richter]

here is a different idea; try to figure out how much it cost you per minute to play paintball in the nppl:
8 games @ 7 minutes per game = 56 minutes that you could play if every game went to time.

Division III entry fee = $1950

1950/56=$34.82 per minute for the team or $4.97 per person on the field

Now that is just entry fee; that does not include paint, travel expenses, food, and other expenses.

on a side note:
That is why i like big games/scenario games more value for your dollar: more time on the field and lot more people to shoot.

I have not played a big tourney since world cup 2001.

[SlartyBartFast]

We need team owners, and a players union, much like the NFL. If there is a players union for the NPPL, I would have the head representative's head on my trophy wall.

That would be funny if it wasn't so ironic. You do know that the NPPL once stood for the National Paintball Player's League. Right?

Unfortunately, self-interested bickering teams lose out to self-interested industry.

[tony3]

I do think div3 prizes are horrible, because frankly they are, but I'd say the biggest thing div2 and 3 gets you is sponsors. I know my team was going to get great sponsors this year depending on how they did at HB this year. I think they should just get rid of prizes all together, or just pay back entry to the top teams.

As for what manike said about top div 3 team being the 149th best team, that is in my opinion completely wrong. There are plenty of div 2 teams that would get destroyed by div3 teams, just because so many div2 teams were either forced to move up or play up because they think they are too good for div3.

[Lohman446]

I do think div3 prizes are horrible, because frankly they are, but I'd say the biggest thing div2 and 3 gets you is sponsors. I know my team was going to get great sponsors this year depending on how they did at HB this year. I think they should just get rid of prizes all together, or just pay back entry to the top teams.

As for what manike said about top div 3 team being the 149th best team, that is in my opinion completely wrong. There are plenty of div 2 teams that would get destroyed by div3 teams, just because so many div2 teams were either forced to move up or play up because they think they are too good for div3.

I'd like to see finals include everyone for the big prizes :) But I am sure other D3ers have an issue with a suggestion that might have them facing off against Russian Legion or such.

[manike]

As for what manike said about top div 3 team being the 149th best team, that is in my opinion completely wrong. There are plenty of div 2 teams that would get destroyed by div3 teams, just because so many div2 teams were either forced to move up or play up because they think they are too good for div3.

So why aren't those Div 3 teams that would be destroying the Div 2 teams playing in Div 2? Could it be that they are sandbaggers and are just out to try and cream prizes?

If you enter a lower division, just by the nature of doing so you are putting yourself behind all the teams in that higher division.

[GT]

This F'ed up. NPPL is a private org. Under our current capitalist system they are more than welcome to make as much dam money as they want to. Support for players comes from increased intrest in the sport, allowing vendors to show case goods, and providing an atomsphere to play. This topic sucks!!!!

The real question should be: Do some palyers desreve this level of service?

[Lohman446]

This F'ed up. NPPL is a private org. Under our current capitalist system they are more than welcome to make as much dam money as they want to. Support for players comes from increased intrest in the sport, allowing vendors to show case goods, and providing an atomsphere to play. This topic sucks!!!!

The real question should be: Do some palyers desreve this level of service?

How so? Isn't it perfectly legit under a capitalist system to question what my money gets me? I am not against a profit, though it may come off as such. I do have a problem that although D3 pays a good share of the entrance fees they get back less than 1% of the prize money. A lot of people have paid a lot of money into NPPL over the years? What has the return on that been?

[GT]

What has the return on that been?


Glory and prizes? Meeting friends? Competing nationally? Checking out the new gear? Why not ask the folks who play nppl?

If you don't like it don't join. Seems simple. :p

[Boski51]

Glory and prizes? Meeting friends? Competing nationally? Checking out the new gear? Why not ask the folks who play nppl?

If you don't like it don't join. Seems simple. :p


Oh, the old "love it or leave it argument". Didn't work in Viet Nam and has never worked since. Lohman brings up very good points. This is one of the few threads on AO that is worth reading. Let's not try to kill the thread just because it is interesting....

[manike]

Oh, the old "love it or leave it argument". Didn't work in Viet Nam and has never worked since. Lohman brings up very good points. This is one of the few threads on AO that is worth reading. Let's not try to kill the thread just because it is interesting....

But there is a choice. You can play NPPL, or PSP, or just local events.

[hitech]

We all know that "you" don't have to play in NPPL events. That has NOTHING to do with the question being asked by this thread.

The question this thread is asking is "Why should you play in NPPL events in the lower divisions"?

It's a very valid question.

[MicroMiniMe]

We all know that "you" don't have to play in NPPL events. That has NOTHING to do with the question being asked by this thread.

The question this thread is asking is "Why should you play in NPPL events in the lower divisions"?

It's a very valid question.

/Devil's Advocate
Maybe it should just be known as a right of passage for the D3 and D2 players that they know they are bankrolling the lions share of the league fees for the D1 on up players. Like a bad version of High School where the freshman are scrubs and buy the seniors lunch...

Its just another pyramid buisness model.

[Lohman446]

/Devil's Advocate
Maybe it should just be known as a right of passage for the D3 and D2 players that they know they are bankrolling the lions share of the league fees for the D1 on up players. Like a bad version of High School where the freshman are scrubs and buy the seniors lunch...

Its just another pyramid buisness model.

That would be fine if pro paintball players exhibited, as a whole, some trait that I would like to be supported besides skill at the game...

[Boski51]

So true!

So after all this, what conclusion have you come to. Are you still going to play? Do you see this changing the face of paintball? You point out a very legit issue. I wonder what will come of it?

Maybe nothing, but questions like that are always worth asking.

[raehl]

The only way to get a straight number of profit to prize to cost percentage is to get a straight non-propaganda answer from those elite few that hold those numbers. Speculation of the viewer, player, and outsiders means little to nothing of the truth. End of story.

I am one of the elite few who has most of the numbers, a lot for PSP and everything for my own events.

Before I get into why events cost more to run than you guys think, let me get in to why even thinking about the prize payout, especially for D3/D2, is stupid.

First: Players seem to get this thing in their heads that they're entitled to stuff. These events are TOURNAMENTS. When you play a tournament, the prize goes to the WINNER. Now, NPPL and PSP realize that the vast majority of the teams don't have a chance to win, and because of that, they are NICE ENOUGH to take some money from the winners and give it out to the teams who have no chance. They do this by setting up different divisions. D3 teams, and almost as much, D2 teams, don't really deserve any prizes at all. You pay a SMALLER entry fee than the teams in the higher divisions, and the teams in the higher divisions will kill you. Since they are winning the event and you are only 1st of the losers, tell me why you should get any prizes at all? Because you paid an entry fee? So what? If you want an equal shot at prizes for paying an entry fee, play the lottery. The odds are better.

Second: The value in playing NPPL/PSP is *NOT THE PRIZES!* The majority of the pro teams (and by majority, I mean everyone except Dynasty and XSV and maybe Trauma) spend more money playing than they get in prizes. The lose money going to events. But that's not why you play; either you're playing for fun, or you're playing to win. If you're playing for fun, think about how much it costs you to play a NPPL event, and think about how much it costs you to, say, go skiing for a week. They're comparable. And if you're playing for fun, there's no reason you shouldn't expect to pay the same as anybody else who does an expensive hobby for fun.

Now, if you're playing to WIN, your payoff for winning is not prizes, it's SPONSORSHIP! At all levels, you'll get a lot more value out of the sponsorship from winning a national tournament, even in D3, than you will prizes. And that's what you're paying NPPL/PSP for: The sponsorship prize. If you're not playing NPPL/PSP, your sponsorship value is almost nothing compared to what it would be if you were.


Now, onto why the events cost more than you think:

The second you step off a paintball field and have an event anywhere else your expenses skyrocket. I have an event next week - which is even still at a paintball field - would you believe I am spending $3,000 JUST on three tents, tables, and chairs? That's 7.5 team entry fees spent on tents. In fact, on a 2.5 day tournament, on three fields, with LOCAL refs, AT a paintball field, I have a budget of $40,000. *HALF* of that is coming from sponsors. And I even have 10 staff people coming in to work for free.


PSP and NPPL will spend $30,000 on bleachers for ONE EVENT. $30,000 on tents. Refs: Let's use NPPL: 8 refs per field, 3 days, $100/day (this is a low estimate), $24,000. I think they have more refs than that and here's also ref support staff so that goes up.

It costs about $8,000 to set up a temporary field for an event. That's per field. So for HB, figure $48,000 for the 6 fields. That's transporting all the stuff around, storing it, paying for people to assemble it...

I think you can see here that this is starting to add up. And we havn't even hit things like staff, security, permits, taxes, insurance, credit card fees, bounced checks (one of the reasons PSP/NPPL don't take checks anymore), airfare, hotels, cars, gas, generators, sound systems, property damage (paintball players break stuff), golf carts, portajohns, chronographs, fencing, location rental (anywhere from $15,000 to $60,000)...


But, if you think there's really a fortune of profit there, start your own league. It's not like PSP/NPPL have either been incredibly good at running these events. That should tell you something - it's not like we ain't trying, it's because it's freaking expensive and there's no money to throw at the problems.

- Chris

[raehl]

We all know that "you" don't have to play in NPPL events. That has NOTHING to do with the question being asked by this thread.

The question this thread is asking is "Why should you play in NPPL events in the lower divisions"?

It's a very valid question.

Short answer:

Because paying a lower entry fee to win some games and a crappy prize in D3 is better than paying a higher entry fee to go 0 and 8 and win nothing in D1.

D3 teams can want more prizes all they want, but they're not good enough to deserve them.

- Chris

[Lohman446]

Short answer:

Because paying a lower entry fee to win some games and a crappy prize in D3 is better than paying a higher entry fee to go 0 and 8 and win nothing in D1.

D3 teams can want more prizes all they want, but they're not good enough to deserve them.

- Chris

Ahh yes, but calling the D3 entry fee low is a very very relative term is it not? Its far more than I would pay at a local tournament, and the local tournaments I play at have far better prize pools (percentage wise at least) it really doesn't answer the question that was asked. the question is, why should I, as a D3 player, bother to play a NPPL event at all? Isn't all I'm doing is supporting the higher divisions?

[raehl]

Its not about the cash... lets start there. Its about the balancing of league on the back of the "recreational level" players for the benefit of the pro players and league. Thats my problem. As a D2 and D3 player NPPL offers me very little in exchange for the amount of money I hand them.

You pay them to play in the tournament. You don't pay, no tournament. If you want, you can go to one of them Paintball Expos and pay $5 to get in. Same as NPPL. just no playing.

The Pros don't even come out positive on prize money to entry fees - PSP pays out 100% (Pro prize money is equal to Pro entry fees) and NPPL pays out about 90% I think. So if those teams were to play BY THEMSELVES, and have NO D3/D2/D1/SemiPro at all, they'd get *ALL* the prize money.

So because they LET you play, even though you can't beat them, they're supposed to give you their prize money too?


It's very simple:

You can't have a Pro paintball event without Pro teams. But if D2/D3 teams arn't making you money, there's no reason to have them at all.

The only answer to "Give me more prizes or I'm not playing!" is "Fine, you're not playing."

- Chris

[raehl]

Ahh yes, but calling the D3 entry fee low is a very very relative term is it not?

It's not. "Low" is an absolute term. That's why I didn't call them "low". I called them "lower", which is, in fact, relative.

[Lohman446]

It's not. "Low" is an absolute term. That's why I didn't say "low". I said "lower", which is, in fact, relative.

Someday I'll learn to read closer. You have a reasonable argument, one I disagree with. As was pointed out, things like major league baseball are not supported by the players of the lower divisions, nor auto racing (even in its infancy before it "grew"), nor most any other sport. In essence what is happening, it seems to me, is the large tournament series are supporting themselves on the entrance fees of the lower divisions, letting the pro teams get near 100% payback (or even say 80%). These leagues almost seem to exist to serve the pro players... I don't know..

If all I get out of supporting the NPPL is a chance for the pro players to play (and recall I don't see them as a whole representing what I would like to see in paintball) I guess I really don't care.

Its not as much about the prizes not given, its about the distribution, like D3 getting less than 1% of total prizes. I realize there are reasons for it, but it seems that if your not D1 - Pro then the tournament really isn't designed with you in mind.

I don't recall ever saying give me prizes or I'm not playing,. In fact I do agree with Manike that it might be better if D3 and D2 did not play for prizes at all...

[raehl]

Ahh yes, but calling the D3 entry fee low is a very very relative term is it not? Its far more than I would pay at a local tournament, and the local tournaments I play at have far better prize pools (percentage wise at least) it really doesn't answer the question that was asked. the question is, why should I, as a D3 player, bother to play a NPPL event at all? Isn't all I'm doing is supporting the higher divisions?

And to be a little more informative: (Although I told you why in the first post, but maybe it was too long for you to read)

If you are playing for prize money compared to entry fee, playing NPPL events is stupid and you shouldn't do it.

If you are playing for profit, and you are good enough to win D3 at NPPL, and organized enough to leverage that win into sponsorship, you should play NPPL, as the sponsorship will make up the difference.

If you are playing for fun, you have to decide whether the extra money you pay to lose at a NPPL event is worth losing on Huntington Beach as opposed to losing (or even winning) at Joe Blow's Paintball Hole, only 14 miles off the interstate.


I'm not trying to say NPPL is right for everybody. But it's right for enough people that the answer to the people it's not right for is "Do something else".

Just because it doesn't meet YOUR needs doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

[raehl]

Someday I'll learn to read closer. You have a reasonable argument, one I disagree with. As was pointed out, things like major league baseball are not supported by the players of the lower divisions, nor auto racing (even in its infancy before it "grew"), nor most any other sport. In essence what is happening, it seems to me, is the large tournament series are supporting themselves on the entrance fees of the lower divisions, letting the pro teams get near 100% payback (or even say 80%). These leagues almost seem to exist to serve the pro players... I don't know..

You know what all of those other sports have in common? They Pro leagues pay *ZERO* money out to non-Pro teams.

In paintball, the sport is young enough that the non-pros can still play alongside the pros, if they are willing to pay for it. If they are not willing to pay for it, there is no reason for them to be there.

As paintball gets more mature, there won't be a D2 and D3 - it'll be more profitable to turn those other fields into stands for spectators, and then the D2 and D3 teams can go to the events by buying a ticket, just like those other sports you mention.

That D2/D3 is allowed to play at all is a gift. Cherish it while it lasts. Expecting prizes for the privilege is ridiculous.

- Chris

[Lohman446]

Actually I did entirely miss your first post, not on an attempt not to read first posts but on scrolling upward from the bottom to your short answer and then not looking :D imagine my thoughts when you said "perhaps it was too long to read" and I thought, it was like three or four sentences.

I disagree on some base, such as Dynasty spending more than they make. Perhaps if you compare outlay to only prize money, but lets be serious, I would expect the majority of there costs to be sponsor handled. The same goes for most of the pro division.

I don't like the simple answer of don't like how it is don't play. Or start your own league. Your right in that it is all the power any individual player has. I still don't think it wrong to question it. :D

Have I made errors in questioning it? Yeh. Did I present a few things that were worded poorly? Oh yes. I still think it perfectly acceptable to question what the return on an investment into NPPL is.

As to auto racing not paying to non pros? Come now, theres prize packages. Baseball / football /etc. Nope, but I don't recall seeing $800 / event entrance fees either.

[hitech]

If you are playing for profit, and you are good enough to win D3 at NPPL, and organized enough to leverage that win into sponsorship, you should play NPPL, as the sponsorship will make up the difference.


Well what do you know, an actual reason! There you go.

I think most people are better off in local tournaments, but at least Chris has an actual reason to play NPPL lower divisions.

:cheers:

P.S. Glad to see you posting again...

[raehl]

I think most people are better off in local tournaments, but at least Chris has an actual reason to play NPPL lower divisions.

I a purely profit sense, as in money in vs. money out. there is no doubt that almost everyone is better off at local tournaments.

But last I checked, none of those people did paintball as a job. Most of usp lay paintball for fun. Playing a NPPL event can be a LOT of fun, if it's the kind of thing that you find to be fun, and for a lot of people that amount of fun is worth the price.

If you're going to NPPL to have a good time, and you're having a good time, then who cares if the prizes suck? The prizes suck for pretty much everything most of us do, except for work.

If you're going to NPPL to make money, and you're playing D3, then you're just being unrealistic. D3 isn't profitable and isn't supposed to be. We'd all LIKE to make money at paintball, but if you want to do it playing you gotta be a Pro. It's not a handout.

- Chris

[ThePixelGuru]

raehl, true. At UMass we play the collegiate tournies because when we say we're ranked #19th in the nation for college paintball and we've been playing tournies only a little over a year, they give us money to keep playing and get the UMass name out there. Prizes won't help us play paintball.

EDIT: They don't hurt, though...

[Lohman446]

Raehl, I'm going to give you one... but not everything.

The only thing I have ever played large events for is fun, frankly I have never been on a team serious enough to win. The bad news is now the team I am on has this honest lets push to be better philosophy, and it kinda kills the fun of paintball for me.

The idea that getting to play D3 on a national level is a privledge and I should be thankful. Maybe, but its a privledge I pay a lot of money to have. As you have stated its not like these events are wildly profitable (though I am beginning to wonder just how profitable they are and if the "we barely made any money" is accurate). They really can't afford to shut out the lower divisions at this time. I would like to think that they have more than just the pro players and promoters in mind (considering how much others help support) and are about players and paintball in general, not just a select group. In my own business I would like to cull out many and keep only my top 10% of customers that are the best to deal with... guess what, its not going to happen. I think the NPPL needs the lower divisions, not just in entrance fee but in the foot traffic past the vendors and sponsor logos they offer.

My feeling on "pro" paintball. I love paintball, but I find it incredibly boring to watch in any of the systems of play we have now. I don't particularly like the attitude of the few pro players I have witnessed at these events, though there are notable stand outs. No, I don't bother to care who is who either. Frankly, I have no need to support pro paintball, if thats all the NPPL is about then I have an issue. If it is about the promotion of paintball as a whole, on all levels, well I can support it.

Does my opinion in the end matter? No more than yours :), all things considered probably less. I'm not going to quit my job and pursue the headaches of starting a league (even if I could), nor am I ever going to play at the highest level. In the end though I like the discussion, and see only good things coming from any open and honest discussion.

So, well there is the valid point that NPPL "needs" the top levels, I think there is an equally valid point on the other side that it needs the lower levels as well. As discussed, how empty would any major event be if it where just pros and paying spectators? Like it or not those lower division players milling around, buying from the vendors, etc are an important part of the equation.

[Blazestorm]

So... I ask you, what does supporting the NPPL as a D2 or D3 level player give you? What is the advantage to you of doing it? You would see better payback percentages at many of the local levels.


You have to start somewhere. Are you expecting to go Pro in your first season of tournaments? No. So you suck it up and pay the costs.

If you wanted to make money, you play local events (Which we do, to help pay for national stuff). But you have to realize if you have a goal in paintball then the cost of an event doesn't matter. But if you just want to sit around and worry about the percentages and the reasons why people do it. It's to do something with their time spent playing paintball. It's worth it to go to those events and play, the experience alone draws most people back.

I dunno, I only dropped $300 on my last event thanks to sponsors...

[SlartyBartFast]

So because they LET you play, even though you can't beat them, they're supposed to give you their prize money too?

That's the most arrogant and obnoxious thing I've heard in a while.

I won’t bother dissecting the rest of your posts. Is it expensive to run an event? No doubt. But cry me a river for all I care. Whether as an organizer you do it for fun or for profit is irrelevant.

As soon as you have the arrogance to take the attitude that you are just “LETTING” the largest division that’s paying most of the entry fees and is the back bones of the event. Well, you certainly don’t deserve my support and I think anyone else that supports you has their head screwed on wrong.

And “THEIR” prize money? WTF have you been smoking. The event has multiple divisions not just one. The money comes from many sources.

If it’s “THEIR” prize money, let’s see the NPPL or PSP survive if only D1 teams showed up. Guess what. They couldn’t. The sponsors wouldn’t be as generous without the larger customer base and the event would be near impossible to stage as fields and other equipment would be underused.

[raehl]

That's the most arrogant and obnoxious thing I've heard in a while.

I won’t bother dissecting the rest of your posts. Is it expensive to run an event? No doubt. But cry me a river for all I care. Whether as an organizer you do it for fun or for profit is irrelevant.

As soon as you have the arrogance to take the attitude that you are just “LETTING” the largest division that’s paying most of the entry fees and is the back bones of the event. Well, you certainly don’t deserve my support and I think anyone else that supports you has their head screwed on wrong.

And “THEIR” prize money? WTF have you been smoking. The event has multiple divisions not just one. The money comes from many sources.

If it’s “THEIR” prize money, let’s see the NPPL or PSP survive if only D1 teams showed up. Guess what. They couldn’t. The sponsors wouldn’t be as generous without the larger customer base and the event would be near impossible to stage as fields and other equipment would be underused.

Call me crazy, but I thought we were having paintball TOURNAMENTS. You know, TOURNAMENTS, where you get prizes for BEING THE BEST. You seem to be suggestion that you should get prizes because you paid an entry fee. So what? Everybody paid an entry fee. If we're just giving out prizes based on entry fees, let's give every team their own division, charge them $12500 to play, and they can all win $10,000 first place. That'll be a great tournament.

Tell me this: What does a 1st D3 team do that makes them worthy of prizes that a middle-of-the-pack D2 team isn't? The only difference is the D3 team decided to pay a smaller entry fee to play weaker opponents. Giving out prizes for that is stupid. This aini't kindergarten, you don't get money just for playing.

You are playing National level tournaments. If you want big prizes at national level tournaments, you better play the big teams like Dynasty. If Dynasty is going to kill you because you have 1% of the talent they do, then you shouldn't be surprised when you get 1% of the prizes. They are better than you are, and thus they get the prize money.

The league did not create D3 so that teams that sucked could win Pro prizes. It's not part of the deal and never will be. It was created so you could play the events without having to get killed by Dynasty. You can play other D3 teams, or you can play for big prizes, but you can't play D3 for big prizes.

- Chris

[SlartyBartFast]

Call me crazy, but I thought we were having paintball TOURNAMENTS. You know, TOURNAMENTS, where you get prizes for BEING THE BEST.

IMO, prizes need not be money. That's not my argument. But a tournament (or any event for that matter should be run for all the participants involved.

If you're going to be condecending towards lower divisions, if you're going to simply treat them as cows to be milked, and expect them to be thankful that they're getting anything at all in return, why should they show up?

Are teams in it for the money? Well, according to you NOBODY makes their money back. So, how does a big cash prize eqaute with being "the best"?

D2 and D3 teams, were they intelligent, would break away from the D1 tournaments and run their own division. Then, the "pros" can burn sponsorship money and not rely on the little guys to lower their costs and support their payouts.

Event organisers and palyers alike both complain about the expense of events. Yet, for most events, if you took the prize purse for all divisions, the give-away paint, and all the other squandered goodies that the "best" feel the rest of the participants owe them, you'd drastically reduce the cost of the event for the organisers and the participants.

If the cash prizes disappeared, IMO, the attitudes would probably clear up and there would be a TV ready product.

Since the beginning, tournament paintball has refused to focus on growth and development and instead wanted to jump straight to "professional" status and TV contracts.

By comparison, look at how many qualifying leagues, lower divisions, and amateur aorganisations there are between an aspiring athlete/participant with a dream and a paid proffesional in most real proffesional sports.

[tyrion2323]

Chris,

I have always been a supporter of you (on a personal and business level), and I appreciate that you have an insight into this scene that the rest of us lack. But you're way off base when you start to boast that it's the D2/D3 players who should be thankful that they are even given a division to play in at national tournaments. That's arrogant crap.

Others have said it before, but I'll reiterate it. These 'favors' that you're giving the little guys - we both know that you couldn't even host a tournament without D2 and D3 teams. So go ahead and host a pro/D1 only tournament. That will be fun to watch after reading your comments.

I agree that playing NPPL or PSP or anything like that in order to make money is a stupid idea. It's obvious that even if you win D3 or D2, you're not going to cover your costs. But getting rid of prizes altogether? C'mon. It's a national tournament. You can do better than that. What about securing a deal with various sponsors? D3 and D2 could take home new guns, new outfits, custom made gear bags - lots of things that can be useful to a paintball team.

We both know that it takes more than willpower to suddenly become a D1 and Pro team. These teams are given so much equipment and monetary compensation that they are able to perpetuate their positions on top by simply having the resources to play and practice at such a competitive level. It's not like anyone with a marker and a dream can just join up with Dynasty.

It costs the lower-division teams lots of hardwork, money and time in order to come play at your events. Show them the respect that they deserve, and stop acting like they barely matter. Lohman wasn't asking to win big prizes. But there's a difference between explaining why lower level teams who "suck" (your words) don't get huge prizes and then completely knocking them around.