Airball Sucks

[ghost flanker]

Airball does indeed suck. Rather than employing actual strategy to outwit your opponent and conquer ground, it's all about who can afford to throw the most paint with the most expensive marker... and each string of paint is responded to by another equally impressive but ultimately pointless string of paint.

Now watch them all cry :mad: Blasphemy! :mad:

Am I the only one that feels this way? Where's all the recballers and woodsballers in the LA area? Is there anyone out here who isn't a total speedball freak and would like to play some good ol fashioned outlaw paintball?

Edit: Airball does not suck and I was wrong to say it does. It does involve strategy and skill in order for anyone to really be any good at it, just like any other form of paintball, or any sport for that matter. When I originally posted this, I was mainly annoyed at the fact that not more people seem to be into recball or woodsball in my area. It was not my intention to start a flame fest and I apologize if I have offended anyone.

[cowboy_00]

No but come to the other coast and we can show you some of the sweetest Scenario in town.

it kicks butt because you can shake the hand of the man you just shot and a ref doesnt even have to check em. AND HE WILL NOT CUSS YOU OUT!

its so much nicer to play in the relaxed enviroment of Scenario/rec. where you can do just about anything thats safe...and only marginally sane. its great fun

take a trip out for Nj NAM, thats gonna be a good game (GO VC!!!)

[Mescalito]

I started playing P-ball back in '95 only playing outlaw ball with pump guns... prolly some of the funnest times of my life (as far as paintball is concerned) But when i play outlaw... you better hope your gun is chrono'ed cause if it aint... you gonna get some retribution.

But as far as your comment about airball sucking... maybe its you who sucks... I play with a full mechanical "classic" mag and hold my own just fine on an airball field. is flanking not a strategy? is snap shooting not a skill? I walk onto the field every time i play looking at the kids with protos, ions and angels and wonder if they will give me achance to shoot em in the back of the head this round...

A warrior will learn to defeat his opponent on thier ground, not his own...


Airball does indeed suck. Rather than employing actual strategy to outwit your opponent and conquer ground, it's all about who can afford to throw the most paint with the most expensive marker... and each string of paint is responded to by another equally impressive but ultimately pointless string of paint.

Now watch them all cry :mad: Blasphemy! :mad:

Am I the only one that feels this way? Where's all the recballers and woodsballers in the LA area? Is there anyone out here who isn't a total speedball freak and would like to play some good ol fashioned outlaw paintball?

[ShadowNife]

*puts up antiflame shields for you*

they are two different types of play style. Take a good pump player, a newbtastic paint slinger, and most of the time the pump player will win. This argument's been done to death, but the same tactics can be used in both styles of play, one is just more drawn out/camping, other is fast paced though both can go either way.

about the paint-slinging argument, I'm not sure where you ball (you mentioned LA, i go to Jungle/SC etc.) but off the break or in large maps, the same amount of paint is thrown in the air with the same useless outcome. People shooting at each other out of range etc. Laning in speedball actually has a purpose, so it could be argued it actually has more of a purpose than in scenario play. Oh ya, as a disclaimer I tend to play at scenario oriented parks rather than speed, though I like both for what they are.

[1977FordBronco]

You are kind of throwing a very generalized statement there. Granted there are people who can drop six pods in a game and not hit anything, but then there are people like me who can play and entire three man tourney on one case of paint. A large paint budget and any high end electro have no bearing on makeing a good player. I just started playing the tourney scene and to say that there is no strategy to that style of play is just ignorant. Thats like saying that you play rugby and football and think that rugby doesn't employ any strategy. Speedball and Woodsball are two completely different games each with their own unique stategies and playing styles. You prefer woodsball, some prefer speedball...who cares? :tard:

[Cow hunter]

I started playing P-ball back in '95 only playing outlaw ball with pump guns... prolly some of the funnest times of my life (as far as paintball is concerned) But when i play outlaw... you better hope your gun is chrono'ed cause if it aint... you gonna get some retribution.

But as far as your comment about airball sucking... maybe its you who sucks... I play with a full mechanical "classic" mag and hold my own just fine on an airball field. is flanking not a strategy? is snap shooting not a skill? I walk onto the field every time i play looking at the kids with protos, ions and angels and wonder if they will give me achance to shoot em in the back of the head this round...

A warrior will learn to defeat his opponent on thier ground, not his own...
i agree. i shoot my mag in speedball every time.this subject reminds me of a couple months back.....

once there was a group of kids maybe 14, all shooting very high end markers, (angel's, DM6, PM6, Shocker). they asked me what my Z-mag was and i told them. then they asked me to see it, so i let them hold it. when they said, "how do you turn it on" i laughed in my head..... i told them it was a mech and they told me "LOL! sell this P.O.S for $700 on PBN and buy a used ego" i said that i liked my mag and it could keep up just fine in speedball. this made them laugh and i got sucked into a one-on-one game. he was spraying paint like no tommorow, and i was just playing how i normally would a one-on-one. in the end, i won, and i didnt even need a fast gun to beat out his super whatchamacallit marker that his parents paid $1000 for


morale; its not the gun, its the player

[BigEvil]

There are pros and cons to both airball and woodsball. Im starting to really like the smaller, hybrid feilds that are starting to show up - which are smaller and in the woods, but with more of a speedball bunker format.

[etjoyride]

I ithnk airball and woddsball are great. Nothing like a little diversity. :p

I play airball with a pump, SC semi, or angel. And i always play with others that are using high-end electros, and i cna typically do alright with any of my markers. As long as you use your surroundings well, you can play a game of speedball with 20 rounds.

[JKR]

If you think airball sucks, then it sucks.

If I think woodsball sucks, then it sucks.

The view always depends on where you stand.

That's the beauty of America, son...to each his own. If there are some like-minded people in your area, you can find 'em if you try hard enough. With some effort, you can play the game you want. Organize a game through something like the Special Ops game database and give it a try. Just keep trying and you will find others like yourself.

Personally, I prefer a good woods game anyday. If you get the right bunch of guys (and gals) together, outlaw 'ball can work wonderfully. I play these types of games several times a year and it is a great thing to behold.

Justin

[ghost flanker]

I do NOT suck at airball :cry: YOU suck at airball Mescalito... waaahh

How much strategy is really employed when the entire field is within firing range at any point on the field? Where's the incentive to advance up the field? Yeah, sure you acheive an advantage once your team bunkers behind the snake, but there's really not THAT much more you can do in such a small area... especially when the field you're playing on has a "no bunkering rule."

I guess what I'm spewing off at the keyboard about is that such an overwhelming majority of people, at least in my area, "spray and pray" and do nothing else. And admittingly it's not just airball either. I actually did go to Conquest Paintball Park last month (they have airball and recball) and every game ended in a stand-off. There were plenty of people playing and nobody was willing to move up the field with me... they were all fine with sitting in one spot the entire game emptying their pods. It was lame.

[Chaos_Theory!]

Airball takes a lot of stratagy and communication, far more then you seem to realize. Its not all about who can shoot the fastest by any means. Sure thats how some people play it but ive seen tons of pump players play against kids with all the newest guns and kill them without using so much as 20 paintballs. If you dont like it then dont play, its as simple as that. Coming here and complaining about it sint going to help the situation.

[Hexis]

... there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

You have to approach a new game with an open mind. I was quite overwhelmed when I first tried speedball. After a while I caught on and started figuring out things. Sure there will always be people with little in the way of skill that think that there is nothing to it other than blindly tossing paint. That type of player will not last long against somone/some team that has a deeper understanding of the game. There is a lot more to it than simply tossing paint. There is a lot to interacting with the blind areas behind a bunker, and playing the angles.

If you don't like speedball, don't play it. A hobby/game/sport is a worthless activity if you don't enjoy it.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Accuracy by volume sucks, but it is a valid tactic in any style of paintball. On the speedball field or in the woods, the game is essentially the same. There are some tactics that work better in one place than another, but the basics hold true: shooting accurately, making good use of cover, and knowing where & when to move up. As you recognized with your last post, ghost flanker, you played with a bunch of lame-o's. And that's your real problem. You need to find a regular group who plays the way you like, and stick with them. Once you have that group, you are set. I've been playiing with the same core group for nearly ten years. My friends and I all prefer the woods scene, but we can have fun on the airball field, too.

[Dye Angel Guy]

In speedball you have to shoot by volume just for the reason that the games are so fast paced and you have to shoot a stream of 13bps or some one can run throught it. We actually did a test with some photo equipment a couple years ago and if you are shooting 13bps no one can just run through it and anything more really is just a waste of paint. I do fear that I can't prove this anymore I do not talk with the people that I did this research with anymore.

[hipster]

In air air ball you do use a lot of paint , but that does not mean it does not use stratagy ,air ball is all about being able to read the field, judge when to move and where the best bunker to move to is as well as predict where you opposion will move to next and making sure you or someone on you team is there to prevent it, ( it,s like playing speed chess right down to the game timer)

[BD_Paintball]

In air air ball you do use a lot of paint , but that does not mean it does not use stratagy ,air ball is all about being able to read the field, judge when to move and where the best bunker to move to is as well as predict where you opposion will move to next and making sure you or someone on you team is there to prevent it, ( it,s like playing speed chess right down to the game timer)
speed chess is a great analogy. there is ALOT of srtategy that is needed to be a good airball player like hipster said. knowing when and where to move. know where to put ppl off the break, and what rout they will take to get there. predicting where the other team will send players and try to lane and counter their moves. there is alot more strategy then you think

[ghost flanker]

In speedball you have to shoot by volume just for the reason that the games are so fast paced and you have to shoot a stream of 13bps or some one can run throught it. We actually did a test with some photo equipment a couple years ago and if you are shooting 13bps no one can just run through it and anything more really is just a waste of paint. I do fear that I can't prove this anymore I do not talk with the people that I did this research with anymore.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. However, to be fair, when I said airball sucks, I guess I really meant speedball sucks. There's so many balls flying through the air that it's almost suicide to leave your cover and advance up the field, especially early on in the game. It's not airball... it's the type of markers that are so commonly used to play the game. Too much firepower in too small an area.

My idea is that airball could be made much more fun using much slower markers, dare I say pumps. But if that's too much too ask cuz you wanna keep your semis and fully autos that you've spent so much money on, then make the airball fields bigger. Who wouldn't wanna play on a football field sized airball course?

This is probably what I should have originally posted... making suggestions to improve the game of airball rather than just saying that airball sucks.

[ghost flanker]

speed chess is a great analogy. there is ALOT of srtategy that is needed to be a good airball player like hipster said. knowing when and where to move. know where to put ppl off the break, and what rout they will take to get there. predicting where the other team will send players and try to lane and counter their moves. there is alot more strategy then you think
But in speed chess, you don't cut the board in half... airball fields are way too small for the types of high performance markers that are so commonly used. There's no room to really move around undetected cuz you're playing in a little box. Make the airball fields BIGGER... maybe with larger bunkers too.

[AutomagRT1483]

Airball with a pump gun = I'm as happy as can be. ;)

[mobsterboy]

"are you really that stupid?"
thats all i have to say

[Aslan]

I got really turned off when I saw a speedball match. Three amateur teams were practicing and when they started...all you could see was a swarm of paint in the air. One of the rec woodsball kids that was watching asked the ref how they could shoot so fast and the ref tried to explai to him rocking triggers and ramping. It was actually sort of goofy. 1-2 people on each team got hit off the break...so it was always 3v3 or 3v4 to start. Some of the team would try to move a little...but not really go anywhere. And the guys in the back just kept throwing empty pods on the ground. The had harnesses with like 8-9 pods...and most of the games I saw they went through almost all of them. There was so much paint...that in the corners of the field (it was netted around the outside), there were literally (and I'm not exaggerating) PILES of unbroken balls mixed with some broken paint. PILES...maybe knee deep.

When everyone was leaving for the day I looked over and all over the ground near where the teams were sitting...there were like 15 empty cases of paint and about 10 9V batteries laying on the ground.

I played my first game of airball that day. It was okay. I did well. But, it wasn't the woods. The woods is so much better (to me) because you don't have to constantly be firing at the other team. There's movement, concealment, terrain...and not all of the bunkers look like Godzilla punching bags...everything solid is your bunker.

I definitely think speedball takes some skill...but I also see your point. It's certainly not the game many of us older guys grew up with. But...woodsball isn't dead...of matter of fact, most people and literature seems to be pointing towards the woods as the real bulk of the market share...it's just not TV friendly.

[ghost flanker]

"are you really that stupid?"
thats all i have to say
Who the hell are you callin stupid? You wanna back up your claim with something relevant?

[Hexis]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. However, to be fair, when I said airball sucks, I guess I really meant speedball sucks. There's so many balls flying through the air that it's almost suicide to leave your cover and advance up the field, especially early on in the game. It's not airball... it's the type of markers that are so commonly used to play the game. Too much firepower in too small an area.

I completly disagree. Speedball is like distilled paintball. Speedball is quite interesting, and is a lot more than who can throw the most paint. You gotta play it and get into it to truly understand the game. I have been completly owned by good teams, and I have learned a lot from those games. To be honest (and not trying to be mean) I think you simply don't get it. That's ok. Talk with anyone that understands more than simply the basics and the conversation will get into: approaches on different bunkers, areas of coverage, denial of different areas, playing the angles, doing the things you need to do to completly control the field.

That's not to say there is not a place for other styles of play on an airball field. I'm always up for fun with PGPs.

[kumijia]

At first glance it does seem like speedball is just slinging paint. When actually a well played pro team, works like a well oiled machine. When one player is taken out, another player from that team quickly refills that postion. All in a matter to gain ground and not lose an advantage. Also, there does seem to be plenty of strategy. On the break, each play has a postion to get to....and get there fast. Then each player works their way up the field, or covers the members up in front. The more you watch a team play, the more you learn and pick up. I've never played an actual speed ball event, just some friends playing in a speedball type field. I also play woods ball.....that's what PA has alot of. Honestly, i feel i play pretty calmly, I know the range of my gun, i know if i can hit that shot or not. Most of the time i play i only use 500 rounds. LOL maybe i shouldn't admit that. Now that's playing with Tippman's and piranahas and people without alot of money to spend on paint. I like to take one shot and hit people. LOL But that doesn't mean i don't shoot cover fire either. I don't like to waste paint, that's just the way i play.

[White_Noise]

where to begin...without pouring too much fuel on the flames...


first: i play alot of speedball, for the last half of the time ive been playing ive been playing mostly speedball, but in the begining mostly woodsball. (6 years total) i wish i wouldve played speedball at the same time i started in the woods, ive noticed it has made me a much better player.

the skills needed in speedball are just more refined, quicker versions of the same skills used in woodsball. being able to move quickly and affectively in speedball translates even greater into woodsball from what ive seen.

for instance, for those people here from WI/IL that go to Promised Land, youll know what im talking about:

when i play at PL, i play with the group formally know as the "Bad Boys" All of us play our fair share of speedball, but generally all make it out atleast once a summer to play in the woods. Every time i play with these guys, we play exactly as if we were playing speedball, aggressive, make sacrifices, sling paint, take more area of the field. Not only that, we work together as a team, which i believe speedball can teach you more about than woodsball. In doing this, the team that we end up on rarely ever looses and we are generally on the front lines taking key positions, whereas the seasoned woodsballers tend to stay back and be "snipers" **granted, alot of people do play aggressively in the woods, but im going to use the generalization that most dont**


that being said, we've actually been asked to not play so aggressively so that the other team could have a chance. sorry...not going to change how i play because other people cant figure out how to work together to win.


on that note: i too have played in many tournaments with mech mags, and mech cockers and can deffinately hold my own against guys with the newest $1000+ gun that just spray paint. ive even played with my sydarm against spray and prayers and taken a few out. fortunately, having these skills, and then having a fast marker just adds to what i can do on the field.

just to address another common hatred of speedball: alot of people think that there is no sportsmanship in tournaments, etc. i have played with a lot of teams from WI/IL and know ive seen my share of rich brats with no manners, but there are deffinately far more teams which show good sportsmanship. This is also present in the NCPA as well, which really makes the college tourneys my favorites.

//end rant....play what you like, no need to cut up on another form of the same sport

[punkncat]

The only thing I don't like about airball is that every time some clouds come by you have to pump up the bunkers. Five minutes later when the sun comes out you have to vent them so they don't pop. Owner hasn't gotten the venting caps for them yet....

...but thats only cause I am one of the people who has to actually do it.



As far as the rest of what you have said, its really all just a point of view. At least with the "big budget" guys slinging paint, you know where they are and what they are looking at. Its the guys who don't have to shoot like that you need to worry about.

[warbeak2099]

Airball does indeed suck. Rather than employing actual strategy to outwit your opponent and conquer ground, it's all about who can afford to throw the most paint with the most expensive marker... and each string of paint is responded to by another equally impressive but ultimately pointless string of paint.

Now watch them all cry :mad: Blasphemy! :mad:

Am I the only one that feels this way? Where's all the recballers and woodsballers in the LA area? Is there anyone out here who isn't a total speedball freak and would like to play some good ol fashioned outlaw paintball?

http://x10.putfile.com/4/9317481387.jpg

Seriously, you've either never played airball, or you suck at it. If no skill or strategy was involved, then I guess you're freaking amazing at it. I'd like to see a video of you getting destroy... uhhh I mean playing speedball.

[Mescalito]

http://x10.putfile.com/4/9317481387.jpg

Seriously, you've either never played airball, or you suck at it. If no skill or strategy was involved, then I guess you're freaking amazing at it. I'd like to see a video of you getting destroy... uhhh I mean playing speedball.

:rofl:

[warbeak2099]

:rofl:

Thanks, I'll be here all week. Drinks are available at the bar.

[Tunaman]

But in speed chess, you don't cut the board in half... airball fields are way too small for the types of high performance markers that are so commonly used. There's no room to really move around undetected cuz you're playing in a little box. Make the airball fields BIGGER... maybe with larger bunkers too.
I agree...alot bigger. Then put a painted 15' circle around each bunker...and you cant step in there. If you couldn't HIDE behind the bunker by getting up next to it you would be forced to seek cover elsewhere. Every player would be in the same boat RUNNING for their life. There are no rules...just like now. You may get shot 30 times or more before calling yourself out due to the pain factor. Bring it... and don't foget your cup. :D :D :D

[warbeak2099]

Pffft, cups simply restrict movement. I had my unit surgically enhanced to withstand hits from gelatin projectiles fllying at 300-350fps. You bring it!

[BD_Paintball]

Pffft, cups simply restrict movement. I had my unit surgically enhanced to withstand hits from gelatin projectiles fllying at 300-350fps. You bring it!
haha, i dont wear a cup but i got a nut pad. i once shot a kit in the nuts ~5 times and he wasnt walking for about 20 mins. i felt bad.

now i dont think that airball fields need to be any bigger then they are right now. if you go to a psp or nppl event you will see that the fields are really not that small. they are plenty big for people to move and it promotes a faster pace and more action not some backmen lobbing balls at eachother

[warbeak2099]

And... because it's harder to move on smaller fields, it takes a lot more skill and teamwork. Once again, the bozo who started this thread has absolutely no point.

[onedude36]

All these comments about how somone drops 6 pods and doesnt hit anything, they arent trying necessarily to hit somone, but to hold a zone so their front guys can shoot somone without being pinned down.

I contend that in speed ball there is more detailed strategy. In rec, there usually isnt a plan. 'Just shoot people' mmkk... Scenario, its more organized, which enemy forces are where, how can you avoid/eliminate them to get points etc., but thats as far as it goes on a team level. Everything else is based on an individual level. In speedball every one has a specific job, hold a lane, slide here, blind shoot that bunker. It all has to work together or the team wont go anywhere. If you watch the 'dynasty dysected' dvd, the part where fraige tells where he would go on a specific field, He goes though many many different possibilities of game out come all the way to the end. Back to the spray pray, If i dont dump the six pods a game and i lose the tape, my front guy cant advance, and will probably be pinched or bunkered eventually. everyone on the team depend on everyone doing their individual jobs which are pre-planed and every one knows everyone elses job.

yes, i know it doesnt all make sense, but i tried. On that note, i dont like 7 man, the 8 pods a player, not allot of movement types of games. I like fast action 5 man x-ball style games. Even though i play back, i do not have to spray to get kills in rec play. i played last weekend a full day on one bag, picking up paint involved...

[ghost flanker]

http://x10.putfile.com/4/9317481387.jpg

Seriously, you've either never played airball, or you suck at it. If no skill or strategy was involved, then I guess you're freaking amazing at it. I'd like to see a video of you getting destroy... uhhh I mean playing speedball.
You want to see a video? Of me? Wow, where did you learn those compelling debate tactics?

Look at you gettin your panties all up in a bunch... Did I strike a nerve?

Friggin chill out dude. The whole point of me posting this thread is because I think that airball can be greatly improved from what it is today. So go easy on the cheap shots and personal attacks as if you know me personally and are exposing me for what I really am :rolleyes:

[etjoyride]

are exposing me for what I really am :rolleyes:

Acha! the truth comes out :D

[BD_Paintball]

The whole point of me posting this thread is because I think that airball can be greatly improved from what it is today.

i think that it will be very hard to make it alot better then what it is today. what more can you ask for? there is a reason why its where it is toda because most of the ppl playing it like it and it is very fun to watch.

[ghost flanker]

This is getting tedious.

I'm just stating an opinion that happens to be different from what other people might think... I say that I think something sucks and could possibly be improved and it turns into pbnation in here. I just wanted to get some constructive new ideas flowing. Whatever. You guys win and I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just tired of arguing over the internet... it's like competing in the special olympics... even if you win you're still retarded.

happy airballing, peace

[Lohman446]

You want to see a video? Of me? Wow, where did you learn those compelling debate tactics?

Look at you gettin your panties all up in a bunch... Did I strike a nerve?

Friggin chill out dude. The whole point of me posting this thread is because I think that airball can be greatly improved from what it is today. So go easy on the cheap shots and personal attacks as if you know me personally and are exposing me for what I really am :rolleyes:


Your first post showed that you do not have a good enough understanding of the game for most of us to give a care about your opinions. Sorry..

Took a 4 on 1 with my mech mag this weekend at a ramping allowed field.. yeh its all about paint thrown :rolleyes:

[geekwarrior]

i know!!!...how about adding an accuracy point system to speedball. :rolleyes: You count the balls going in, how many balls come off the feild, and how many players get hit. haha.....i think the overall shots accuracy would be less than 1%.


I don't think too many changes can be done to speedball, although personally I would like to see it all mech. But than the other players REALLY wouldn't have a chance against my mag.

[mobsterboy]

Who the hell are you callin stupid? You wanna back up your claim with something relevant?


no really, your argument is whack, your "reasons" are lame and obviously you can't snapshoot. my friends and I take on dm's timmys and what nots and all I had was a mech cocker. You know what they would say once i got about 2 of them out and my guys were gone in a 4 on 4 match? "Man, wheres taht kid with the mech cocker?" STO cockers were truely the greatest, and mine was blue to purple fade :headbang:

oh, and my first statement was relevant, you were just too :tard: to understand the true meaning

[Recon by Fire]

Fine, you don't like airball, who cares? If you cannot find any tactics in airball then you are blind. Woodsball and airball both have tactics involved. Sure you can play either with no tactical awareness and dump paint like crazy. I know plenty of high volume woodsball shooters so don't try to say there are none. You can also play airball with limited volume paint. I look at airball more like a football game tactic wise while woods tend to be more war game oriented.

Shut up and play :D

[etjoyride]

This is getting tedious.

I'm just stating an opinion that happens to be different from what other people might think... I say that I think something sucks and could possibly be improved and it turns into pbnation in here. I just wanted to get some constructive new ideas flowing. Whatever. You guys win and I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just tired of arguing over the internet... it's like competing in the special olympics... even if you win you're still retarded.

happy airballing, peace

WE (most of us anyways) are just trying to make you see through your blindness. If you do not like speedball then that is fine, To each his/her own. However, if you dislike an aspect of th egame you do not have any need to say it sucks. I am only 15, but i know that when writing something on the interenet the poster needs to post maturley and give out his reasons for what ever he wrote, not just randomly attack it.
Have fun!

[REDRT]

Airball does indeed suck. Rather than employing actual strategy to outwit your opponent and conquer ground, it's all about who can afford to throw the most paint with the most expensive marker... and each string of paint is responded to by another equally impressive but ultimately pointless string of paint.


There is strategy on the air field. With out it one gets mauled even with fast markers and lots of paint most of the time. As a team: First walking the field. From both sides knowing the blind spots and the lanes of fire. Second knowing where the key bunkers are and how are you going to advance to them to gain position. Third planing not just a were everyone is going of the break, but there second and third moves ect and how to cover that advancement. Forth try to estimate were the other team might be moving to. Off the break and beyond. You have to assume they are going to try for the same key bunkers. Being able to cover their advance through laning, predicting the other teams movement and exicuting yours is all part of the 5 minute game.
Sometimes it make look like there is alot of paint fired at no one, but if the plan works there is going to be someone out very shortly. They run right into it. Avoiding the one on ones and working as a team gets the job done. Games are short and fast. Comfident well exicuted teams make short work out of less strategic teams. Larger the teams the more strategic the team needs to be. 3-man can be won most of the time just by fire power and a little luck. As you get into 5-man and larger, things become more critical/faster. The game is fun, fast, and highly involved for a very short time.

Dedication, comunnication skills, trust, teamwork, skill with whatever marker, physical ability, being able to react to a situation, attitude, able to carry through with a plan and ablity to make command decisions in a split second, Knowledge of the game, knowledge of equipment are just some things a good speedballer has to be always improving on. Some on a personal level and some on a team level. Knowing with out the player the marker is useless and the player without the marker is equally useless. No one player is greater than the sum of the whole team. The best teams are ones who are tight, playing as one. There is no "I" in team. As teams achieve higher skill levels they tend to use less paint and win with more skill. Or atleast till they get the paint paid for by some sponcer. :rolleyes:

One can argue that there is alot of the same kind of disaplin in the woods. To a degree yes, but what makes the airfield fun is the speed at which it all goes down. I can sit down and rest playing in the woods. Maybe even picking off a few players in that time, but on the air field it can be over in a blink of an eye. That is why I like it the best. But keeping an open mind about things and trying different things makes for a better rounded player IMHO...

[Dye Angel Guy]

I have one last thing to say. Just play 10 man...

[warbeak2099]

Your first post showed that you do not have a good enough understanding of the game for most of us to give a care about your opinions. Sorry..

Took a 4 on 1 with my mech mag this weekend at a ramping allowed field.. yeh its all about paint thrown :rolleyes:

ghost_flanker, read Lohman's post and shut the hell up.

[ShadowNife]

hey, flanker might not be "educated" in terms of the differences and such, and while his opinion may be poorly based, he's still another user on these forums.

warbeak2099 and others, he was right when saying that it's turning into PBN in here. Rather than explaining, you're just flaming. Not exactly the spirit of AO IMO.

yes, given flanker is a bit hard-headed in his opinion, but seriously people :rolleyes:

[bentothejam1n]

I think airball is at a good point right now. Sure I think some improvements could be made like kids not having complete control of thier parents check book (I always buy my own stuff, my parents have never boughten me anything thats paintball oriented besides on my bday and christmas) and I think that sportsmanship should improve. I play out in the woods with a bunch of my friends and a dad and wehn never have problems with sportmanship. Also I think some pros cuss way to much like to the point where its lost its meaning as a word. Its not like i have a problem with cussing but like before a game at a div 1 circuit with a ton of people around, isnt exactly a family friendly scene
/seriously, wheres behemoth?

[White_Noise]

I think airball is at a good point right now. Sure I think some improvements could be made like kids not having complete control of thier parents check book (I always buy my own stuff, my parents have never boughten me anything thats paintball oriented besides on my bday and christmas) and I think that sportsmanship should improve. I play out in the woods with a bunch of my friends and a dad and wehn never have problems with sportmanship. Also I think some pros cuss way to much like to the point where its lost its meaning as a word. Its not like i have a problem with cussing but like before a game at a div 1 circuit with a ton of people around, isnt exactly a family friendly scene
/seriously, wheres behemoth?

in response to your cussing comment...try putting a mic on a football field...or any sport for that manner.

as for those who say its turning into PBN....i can see where sometimes this can be seen, but not in this instance, if you want to talk about people doing things that are PBNish...look at Ghost Flanker....he basically started a thread to incite a flame fest. plenty of us have shown that his arguments are way off base, and misguided, and have even provided explainations as to why, yet he has not come up with any meaningful reply. If he wants to be blind and not even think of the possibility that the sport can exist in multiple forms, so be it, but there is no need to post such beliefs with the intent of starting an argument. and even so, if youre going to start an argument, atleast be able to back up your claims.

[bentothejam1n]

in response to your cussing comment...try putting a mic on a football field...or any sport for that manner
I play football and the onyl times I cuss on the field is if we get in a fight. Now if you put a mic a coach thats losing at halftime.... thats another story. But I dont think cussing on a football is as prevelant as on a paintball field.

[ej_y4]

This wasnt the best way to make your point. If you dont like like speed ball/ air ball, you dont like it.

However is Conquest is the field you are using to back up your claims why its bad, you might want to rething that. (im not trashing Conquest, I have played there for years and i will be there this saturday). Only resently have they bothered to get an Airball field. Conquest is more of a field for woods ball anyways.Also Conquest the last 2 years has been over crowded. That why games seem to never end there, 30 on 30 or 50 on 50 are huge games.

I for one love speed ball. It takes a huge amount of skill, every move that happens takes percision. As for the throwing paint arguement, Laning is an important part of the game.Just to let you know I own "fast guns" you are taking about (timmy, autococker, mag if you wantthat to count) but i normally use my phantom in Air ball. I have won countless game with my pump, it just takes skill and timing. Airball is faster pass, which to me makes it more injoyable

[ghost flanker]

Jesus. Some of you people are cut-throat! Are you going to chase me down the street next waving torches and pitchforks yelling, "KILL THE MONSTER!!!"

Fine!! There's strategy involved in speedball! Airball is perfect the way it is and anyone who says or thinks otherwise shall be banished from the land!

Look, I'm glad you all love airball and you're probably all really good at it too. But don't insult me or attack my character just to discredit my argument. I never insulted anyone here, never called anyone names. I realize I originally came off a little strong and insensitive, and I apologize if my initial posting offended anyone (and I attempted to civilly rephrase it in several other posts) but originally I put that up out of the sheer frustration that people who use daddy's credit card to spend more money on more paint have a clear advantage over my poverty stricken ***, particularly in airball. Sure, skill counts... and I can hold my own with a mech mag in a speedball game full of angels and timmies as well, but I simply seem to have much more fun when shooting less paint or using a larger field to flank behind an enemy undetected (and I wanted to meet people who felt the same way). Am I allowed to say that? Is it retarded or stupid or uninformed of me to say that? Is it retarded or stupid to say, "Hey, I think that something might be more enjoyable if we did this." I'm just throwing ideas in the air and I got some of you guys telling me that I'm stupid for not keeping an open mind! Do you see the irony?

Friggin RELAX!!! We're supposed to be friends here. You guys can still disagree with me without turning on me like rabid dogs. Some of you made very interesting points and gave specific examples of how strategy can be imployed in speedball while others just seemed intent on flaming the blasphemer... and some did both.

Enough with the insults. I'll edit my original posting if you guys want, but there will be no more name calling or personal attacks directed towards me. I'm serious.

[Eatem Alive]

but there will be no more name calling or personal attacks directed towards me. I'm serious.
or what...you'll take your thread and go home?

how did mango say it...kthxbye

[LudavicoSoldier]

Airball does not suck. Try playing a game of pump only airball (meaning EVERYONE uses a pump). It will be the most fun you have ever had playing paintball.

[ghost flanker]

Airball does not suck. Try playing a game of pump only airball (meaning EVERYONE uses a pump). It will be the most fun you have ever had playing paintball.
This was exactly what I mentioned in a previous post. I'd love to play pump airball, but those kinds of games seem to be pretty difficult to find. Does anyone know of any pump airball games going on in the LA area?

[warbeak2099]

Oh stop with this pretending to be simply posting your own, objective opinion. You made a ridiculous statement that is just plain wrong. You acted like a raving idiot when you said it too. Of course you're gonna get flamed. I hate people who think everyone's opinion should be respected no matter how it's presented. You presented your opinion in a totally ignorant way. After you had been disproved time and again, you refused to admit it and kept on acting like a hysterical lunatic. That's why a lot of us got upset and started flaming you. You make stupid statements and you don't back them up with facts. There are so many examples of tactics in speedball, yet you dismiss all of them. You're wrong, so what do you do? You deny it and make the excuse that you're entitled to your own opinion. Well, speedball lacking strategy is not an opinion, it's a fallacy. Your love of ignorance is what's getting you flamed. If you had presented a lucid, well thought out argument about how to improve speedball, then you would deserve to have your opinion listened to. As it stands, you don't. Please try to read and comprehend all of this before you make yet another "arm flailing", raving lunatic post.

[hitech]

... airball fields are way too small for the types of high performance markers that are so commonly used. There's no room to really move around undetected cuz you're playing in a little box. Make the airball fields BIGGER... maybe with larger bunkers too.

I would also have to agree with this. Current speedball formats leave little room for movement. I know it's fun to duke it out with your opponent, but I like something a little more balanced between shooting and movement...

:cheers:

_____________________________________________
<img src="http://www.synreal.net/sig/hitech.gif">

Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant (http://www.kercon.com)

[Lohman446]

I would also have to agree with this. Current speedball formats leave little room for movement. I know it's fun to duke it out with your opponent, but I like something a little more balanced between shooting and movement...

:cheers:

this is where I disagree. My team moves a lot - and I would argue that movement requires a lot of strategy. The things that many complain are missing...

[hitech]

this is where I disagree. My team moves a lot - and I would argue that movement requires a lot of strategy. The things that many complain are missing...

I think we would just disagree on what a lot of movement is. ;)

The current speedball formats have a very high emphasis on shooting, were wide open woodsball formats have an emphasis on movement. As an example, how many times in the current small speedball format does a game end with someone hanging the flag without shooting all of the opposing team?

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

I think we would just disagree on what a lot of movement is. ;)

I think you are right...

[hitech]

I think you are right...


The only problem with that is that the discussion ends... :rofl:

[warbeak2099]

Ah, but movement isn't the only thing. Other strategy that speedball requires is knowing where to shoot and how to communicate. Teams practice over and over with drills that hone their shooting and communication skills. They come up with symbolic language, they practice different situations and what do do in them, etc. The fact is that there is a huge amount of strategy in speedball. It's just different than woodsball strategy. If nothing else, speedball is harder because of the cramped conditions. This is exactly what gives you that adrenaline rush though. You're on the opposite side of a bunker from the opposing team, paint is flying all around you, you have to make a move and think quick before the other guy gets a one up on you. It's called quick decision making skills.

Once again, ghost flanker's original argument makes absolutely no sense. He is trying to say that there is no strategy or skill in speedball and that it's totally dependant on who has the most expensive gun. It's total bullcrap and that's why he got flamed. Watch, I just proved him wrong again, but his counter-argument will be that I'm a big meany and I'm just out to get him. :rofl:

[onedude36]

or what...you'll take your thread and go home?

how did mango say it...kthxbye

<3 Mango

[ghost flanker]

Oh stop with this pretending to be simply posting your own, objective opinion. You made a ridiculous statement that is just plain wrong. You acted like a raving idiot when you said it too. Of course you're gonna get flamed. I hate people who think everyone's opinion should be respected no matter how it's presented. You presented your opinion in a totally ignorant way. After you had been disproved time and again, you refused to admit it and kept on acting like a hysterical lunatic. That's why a lot of us got upset and started flaming you. You make stupid statements and you don't back them up with facts. There are so many examples of tactics in speedball, yet you dismiss all of them. You're wrong, so what do you do? You deny it and make the excuse that you're entitled to your own opinion. Well, speedball lacking strategy is not an opinion, it's a fallacy. Your love of ignorance is what's getting you flamed. If you had presented a lucid, well thought out argument about how to improve speedball, then you would deserve to have your opinion listened to. As it stands, you don't. Please try to read and comprehend all of this before you make yet another "arm flailing", raving lunatic post.
Hey Warbeak... why don't you back the hell off. You're telling me that I'm acting like a hysterical lunatic? Hahaha!! Look at you! Look at what you have written... "I hate people who think everyone's opinion should be respected." What's your problem? Are you on any kind of medication?

The reality of this situation is that I said something that obviously pissed you off... and you're still pissed off even after I took it back and apologized. If you don't think my opinion is worth listening to, then don't listen... or respond in a not so pscyho manner. You're taking this WAY too seriously... this is just a "paintball talk" post.

And by the way, many of the arguments against mine posted here regarding the presence of strategy in airball, like laning, apply only when an team of players is cooperating and working together. Airball is definitely about cooperation. A team that works like a well oiled machine is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and will absolutely kill any opposing team that does not work together. But not everyone has access to their very own airball team. I don't compete in tournaments. I'm not "sponsered." I'm not gonna pretend I'm hardcore. Hell, it's not even necessarily all about winning for me. It's about having a good time among friends. It's just a game!

To add to that, some arguments made against me were contradicting each other. Some guys were saying that airball is not about throwing buckets of paint while others were saying that you have to throw buckets of paint as part of employing strategy. Both had valid points to their arguments, as did you in one of your postings, but understand I was being told 2 completely different things, so which is it?

I'm not being unreasonable here. Saying airball sucked and involved no strategy was an ignorant thing of me to say and I shouldn't have been so blunt about it, so just leave it at that and stop beating a dead horse. And Warbeak, learn to live with the fact that other people are going to have different opinions from your own. Not everyone is going to think exactly the way you think or believe exactly what you believe. Some people love airball and others just think that airball fields are simply too small for their own tastes and that the bunkers look like Godzilla punching bags (as someone else here put it). Deal with it and stop acting like a bully. Take your mind off the subject and stop being so pissed off... Go play some paintball. Hang out with friends. Read a book. Get laid. Do something! :)

[etjoyride]

But not everyone has access to their very own airball team. I don't compete in tournaments. I'm not "sponsered." I'm not gonna pretend I'm hardcore. It's about having a good time among friends. It's just a game!



I do not play in tournaments(yet), i am not sponsored, i do not pretend to be hardcore. However, I play consistently with a group of guys in both woodsball and speedball and we usually fare quite well. As you said this sport is about having good times among friends which is what we do. As long as we have played together(not necessarily a team though) we, and anyone othe group, should be able to do quite well.

[SCpoloRicker]

Hey Warbeak... why don't you back the hell off. You're telling me that I'm acting like a hysterical lunatic? Hahaha!! Look at you! Look at what you have written... "I hate people who think everyone's opinion should be respected." What's your problem? Are you on any kind of medication?

The reality of this situation is that I said something that obviously pissed you off... and you're still pissed off even after I took it back and apologized. If you don't think my opinion is worth listening to, then don't listen... or respond in a not so pscyho manner. You're taking this WAY too seriously... this is just a "paintball talk" post.

And by the way, many of the arguments against mine posted here regarding the presence of strategy in airball, like laning, apply only when an team of players is cooperating and working together. Airball is definitely about cooperation. A team that works like a well oiled machine is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and will absolutely kill any opposing team that does not work together. But not everyone has access to their very own airball team. I don't compete in tournaments. I'm not "sponsered." I'm not gonna pretend I'm hardcore. Hell, it's not even necessarily all about winning for me. It's about having a good time among friends. It's just a game!

To add to that, some arguments made against me were contradicting each other. Some guys were saying that airball is not about throwing buckets of paint while others were saying that you have to throw buckets of paint as part of employing strategy. Both had valid points to their arguments, as did you in one of your postings, but understand I was being told 2 completely different things, so which is it?

I'm not being unreasonable here. Saying airball sucked and involved no strategy was an ignorant thing of me to say and I shouldn't have been so blunt about it, so just leave it at that and stop beating a dead horse. And Warbeak, learn to live with the fact that other people are going to have different opinions from your own. Not everyone is going to think exactly the way you think or believe exactly what you believe. Some people love airball and others just think that airball fields are simply too small for their own tastes and that the bunkers look like Godzilla punching bags (as someone else here put it). Deal with it and stop acting like a bully. Take your mind off the subject and stop being so pissed off... Go play some paintball. Hang out with friends. Read a book. Get laid. Do something! :)


http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/255/owlirritable0io.jpg

[warbeak2099]

Hey Warbeak... why don't you back the hell off. You're telling me that I'm acting like a hysterical lunatic? Hahaha!! Look at you! Look at what you have written... "I hate people who think everyone's opinion should be respected." What's your problem? Are you on any kind of medication?

The reality of this situation is that I said something that obviously pissed you off... and you're still pissed off even after I took it back and apologized. If you don't think my opinion is worth listening to, then don't listen... or respond in a not so pscyho manner. You're taking this WAY too seriously... this is just a "paintball talk" post.

And by the way, many of the arguments against mine posted here regarding the presence of strategy in airball, like laning, apply only when an team of players is cooperating and working together. Airball is definitely about cooperation. A team that works like a well oiled machine is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and will absolutely kill any opposing team that does not work together. But not everyone has access to their very own airball team. I don't compete in tournaments. I'm not "sponsered." I'm not gonna pretend I'm hardcore. Hell, it's not even necessarily all about winning for me. It's about having a good time among friends. It's just a game!

To add to that, some arguments made against me were contradicting each other. Some guys were saying that airball is not about throwing buckets of paint while others were saying that you have to throw buckets of paint as part of employing strategy. Both had valid points to their arguments, as did you in one of your postings, but understand I was being told 2 completely different things, so which is it?

I'm not being unreasonable here. Saying airball sucked and involved no strategy was an ignorant thing of me to say and I shouldn't have been so blunt about it, so just leave it at that and stop beating a dead horse. And Warbeak, learn to live with the fact that other people are going to have different opinions from your own. Not everyone is going to think exactly the way you think or believe exactly what you believe. Some people love airball and others just think that airball fields are simply too small for their own tastes and that the bunkers look like Godzilla punching bags (as someone else here put it). Deal with it and stop acting like a bully. Take your mind off the subject and stop being so pissed off... Go play some paintball. Hang out with friends. Read a book. Get laid. Do something! :)


Thanks for retracting your original, moronic statement. Oh, and what'd I say about the meany thing, I was right he did it! I'm the big bad bully lol. Raaaar watch out AO, I'll bully anyone with a different opinion! That's me!

Seriously though, it's not that you had a different opinion, it's that you presented a fallacy and tried to call it an opinion. There's a big difference. Also, airball fields differ in size. Some are huge and others are tiny. So your generalized statement that airball is too small scale for your tastes is still unfounded. Now, I am not one to say that speedball is the end all be all. I play both woods and speedball. You were just ranting like an idiot so I flamed you. It happens to everyone. That way, you learn not to make those kinds of posts in the future. So just to clarify, I'm not attacking your right to dislike speedball. I'm saying that you have no right to back up your opinion with untruths. That's fine with me if you don't like a certain type of paintball. Just don't go making useless threads about it without having anything resembling a point.

Have a nice day buddy. :rolleyes:

[tyrion2323]

To Ghost Flanker,

Here's an analogy that I like to use when describing the difference between speedball and woodsball. (I've gotten flak for it, but I think it's sound).

Speedball is a derivation of paintball, just as alpine racing is a derivation of skiing. Consider Speedball the skiing equivalent of alpine racing, while woodsball is the equivalent of freeskiing. Racing and freeskiing involve the same set of skills, just as speedball and woodsball involve the same set of rules. In paintball, you have to hone your accuracy, movement, coordination, tactics, gun speed, field awareness, opportunity exploitation, etc.

Think of speedball as sort of a stripped-down, barebones version of paintball. It's requires all of the skills and talent of scenario and woodsballers, but is basically force-fed into a smaller version. I'm talking about competition level paintball, not just walk-on speedball. (even I don't like that!) In these games, you utilize the same skills, but they are just more condensed. The field is smaller, the games are shorter, you need to play tighter, faster, and more efficiently. It's as if the entire technical game of paintball has been squeezed into a bottle, and all of the extras were siphoned out. It's like skiing. In the racecourse, you need all of the skills of freeskiing, but they have to be even more honed and technical, because there's little to no room for error without sacrificing your chances for gold.

As for your original and subsequent comments, you do need to realize that coming onto a paintball forum and insulting paintball is a pretty stupid approach. Your comments were just asking to be ripped apart, and I think you knew that. It wasn't simply stating an opinion, since opinions have to be based at least a little on fact. Initial impressions don't count as valid opinions, at least not in my book.

It's true that you're being insulted by a lot of people, and I'll admit - it's not a tactic I would use; however, you're wrong when you say that you haven't insulted anyone. Simply by stating that airball sucks and takes no talent, you're insulting every single airball fan here. You then generalize by talking about all the little kiddies with their daddy's credit cards. Unless you can back that up, you'd better watch it. Lots of us have very nice gear, and we work very hard. I'm a 22 year old student, and I work my tuchus off in order to afford airball. And even if a young kid does get his paintball equipment as a present, what's wrong with that? How can you expect a 14 year old to afford paintball equipment? even with only mid-priced gear, you're talking 800 to a grand. Add to the combination that kids usually want to fit in and have cool gear, and that's probably the reason behind lots of kids having 'agg' gear and stuff.

There's a lesson to be learned here. Several, actually. The first is that when you want to denegrate someone's hobby or sport, keep your mouth shut. I don't diss on golf and football, and I don't expect people to diss on skiing and paintball. Secondly, back up your opinions with fact. Without fact, you just looks like a jerk.

[ghost flanker]

I do not play in tournaments(yet), i am not sponsored, i do not pretend to be hardcore. However, I play consistently with a group of guys in both woodsball and speedball and we usually fare quite well. As you said this sport is about having good times among friends which is what we do. As long as we have played together(not necessarily a team though) we, and anyone othe group, should be able to do quite well.
I'm not saying people who play in teams don't have fun, just that some people don't have the means to form a regular team. Between attending college and work, I'm just a recballer and I play when I can...

[hitech]

Has AO lost the ability to have a reasonable debate... :(

[warbeak2099]

So then those who do have the means should feel bad or not do it? What are you getting at? I guess I just don't understand the point you're still trying to make.

[ghost flanker]

Thanks for retracting your original, moronic statement. Oh, and what'd I say about the meany thing, I was right he did it! I'm the big bad bully lol. Raaaar watch out AO, I'll bully anyone with a different opinion! That's me!

Seriously though, it's not that you had a different opinion, it's that you presented a fallacy and tried to call it an opinion. There's a big difference. Also, airball fields differ in size. Some are huge and others are tiny. So your generalized statement that airball is too small scale for your tastes is still unfounded. Now, I am not one to say that speedball is the end all be all. I play both woods and speedball. You were just ranting like an idiot so I flamed you. It happens to everyone. That way, you learn not to make those kinds of posts in the future. So just to clarify, I'm not attacking your right to dislike speedball. I'm saying that you have no right to back up your opinion with untruths. That's fine with me if you don't like a certain type of paintball. Just don't go making useless threads about it without having anything resembling a point.

Have a nice day buddy. :rolleyes:
I've never seen a huge airball field.

[Cow hunter]

I've never seen a huge airball field.
have you looked?

http://webdog.specialopspaintball.com/video/fps/
look at number 5

http://webdog.specialopspaintball.com/video/music/
look at "lightning rod" and "nowhere to run"

[ghost flanker]

So then those who do have the means should feel bad or not do it? What are you getting at? I guess I just don't understand the point you're still trying to make.
What? No. I'm saying that airball tactics involve cooperative strategy. I've been told I suck because don't have a team to use those tactics. Whenever I play at a pay to play field, I'm usually just a walk on.

[REDRT]

the sheer frustration that people who use daddy's credit card to spend more money on more paint have a clear advantage over my poverty stricken ***, particularly in airball.


Well that about says it all. It isn't the game at all. It is the Johny come latelys and their expense accounts that has you in a tizzy.


Cry me a river! Adapt and over come. It doesn't take the platinum card to win the game.

[JOESPUD27]

Airball does not suck. Try playing a game of pump only airball (meaning EVERYONE uses a pump). It will be the most fun you have ever had playing paintball.
Wow, thats surprisingly intelligent sounding from a silly Red Sox fan :p

He is right though, about the pumps, not his baseball team of choice....

Jay

/I'm a bitter Cards fan OK? :D

[hitech]

have you looked?

http://webdog.specialopspaintball.com/video/fps/
look at number 5

http://webdog.specialopspaintball.com/video/music/
look at "lightning rod" and "nowhere to run"

I can't watch those videos now, but I'd bet we have a different idea of huge. ;)

[SCpoloRicker]

Has AO lost the ability to have a reasonable debate... :(

Oh come now; Sam and the MAholes have not only not been at each others throats, they've even agreed on things! ;)

[REDRT]

Has AO lost the ability to have a reasonable debate... :(

Give us something reasonable to debate. Everything has been said so many times and so many ways to the point of being pointless.

[etjoyride]

How can you expect a 14 year old to afford paintball equipment? even with only mid-priced gear, you're talking 800 to a grand. Add to the combination that kids usually want to fit in and have cool gear, and that's probably the reason behind lots of kids having 'agg' gear and stuff.




Hey, i'm 15 (and was 14 until 3 months ago but lets not get to technical) Anyways, I have well over 800 invested in paintball gear, and no more than 100 has come from my parents...I simply find odd jobs, save, spend, trade smartly, and start the cycle over again. Just because a young person has nice gear doesn't mean their parents buy it all for them(although granted this isn't uncommon). Next time you see some kid with nice gear don't take it for granted that they didn't buy it themselves though.

[SpitFire1299]

Airball does indeed suck. Rather than employing actual strategy to outwit your opponent and conquer ground, it's all about who can afford to throw the most paint with the most expensive marker... and each string of paint is responded to by another equally impressive but ultimately pointless string of paint.

Now watch them all cry :mad: Blasphemy! :mad:

Am I the only one that feels this way? Where's all the recballers and woodsballers in the LA area? Is there anyone out here who isn't a total speedball freak and would like to play some good ol fashioned outlaw paintball?

Edit: Airball does not suck and I was wrong to say it does. It does involve strategy and skill in order for anyone to really be any good at it, just like any other form of paintball, or any sport for that matter. When I originally posted this, I was mainly annoyed at the fact that not more people seem to be into recball or woodsball in my area. It was not my intention to start a flame fest and I apologize if I have offended anyone.

The best gun doesnt make the best player. Of course it helps, but ive seen some girl with a maruader dominate some players. :D

[hitech]

Give us something reasonable to debate. Everything has been said so many times and so many ways to the point of being pointless.


How about... Speedball emphasizes shooting and de-emphasizes movement. The ratio of the importance of shooting to movement in the average woodsball game is about even. Speedball is the "firefight" distilled out of the woodsball game...

:cheers:

[warbeak2099]

I just can't see how movement isn't a huge factor in speedball play. Even on the smaller fields I've played on, being able to move to a key bunker has always been important. It decides whether or not you are going to be able to get an angle on your opponents. Maybe it's smaller scale moving, ie. not hiking around, but it's still movement and it's still important. Saying that being able to move well in speedball isn't important, just doesn't make any sense.

[Lohman446]

How about... Speedball emphasizes shooting and de-emphasizes movement. The ratio of the importance of shooting to movement in the average woodsball game is about even. Speedball is the "firefight" distilled out of the woodsball game...

:cheers:

To some degree. Speedball does not have the tactical set up of a woodsball game. In that the starting bunkers are pretty much the starting bunkers. Movement is required (well not, but important) to winning, very few teams who stay in there starting bunkers without movement win.

I'm seeing to some degree... I mean in speedball very seldom does a considered flank ever happen - the closest you have is a run through. I don't like the wording that there is not an emphasis on movement, movement is highly important, though it is often movement under fire compared to a careful considered flanking movement or ambush...

[Automaggot68]

<3 Mango

Mango Left before you were even registered here.




like someone else earlier,
If you think Airball sucks, then it sucks.
If you think recball sucks, then it sucks.

[tyrion2323]

Hey, i'm 15 (and was 14 until 3 months ago but lets not get to technical) Anyways, I have well over 800 invested in paintball gear, and no more than 100 has come from my parents...I simply find odd jobs, save, spend, trade smartly, and start the cycle over again. Just because a young person has nice gear doesn't mean their parents buy it all for them(although granted this isn't uncommon). Next time you see some kid with nice gear don't take it for granted that they didn't buy it themselves though.

Hey yourself. Notice that in no way did I say what you're claiming I said. I'm saying that it's not inherently bad for parents to help their children out with sports gear. Listen, i know what it's like to have to buy my own paintball gear - i've been doing it for ten years. Reread my original statement, and then rethink yours.

[tyrion2323]

How about... Speedball emphasizes shooting and de-emphasizes movement. The ratio of the importance of shooting to movement in the average woodsball game is about even. Speedball is the "firefight" distilled out of the woodsball game...

:cheers:

I would disagree. (about the movement, not about the firefight being distilled - that's correct) Movement, in a sense, is the winner or loser of games. But movement for movement's sake is not prized in speedball. smart movement, strategic movement - these are important. If you're going to measure movement in terms of square footage covered, then of course woodsball is going to win out. But if you're going to measure movement in terms of strategic gain and game winning, then both versions emphasize it the same amount.

edit: the key is to stop thinking of movement as the actual physical walking of the legs, and to start thinking of movement more along the lines of strategic placement. Sometimes, the smartest 'move' is to hold a bunker, and sometimes it's to move to the snake, or something along those lines. it's the same in woodsball. setting up a sniper or an ambush require, in fact, lots of non-movement. if you just kept moving when trying to lure the other team into a trap, you'd be given away. movement, in my book, should be rated on how well it puts your team in a strategic position for winning.

[Aslan]

i know!!!...how about adding an accuracy point system to speedball. :rolleyes: You count the balls going in, how many balls come off the feild, and how many players get hit. haha.....i think the overall shots accuracy would be less than 1%.


I don't think too many changes can be done to speedball, although personally I would like to see it all mech. But than the other players REALLY wouldn't have a chance against my mag.

:clap: :hail:

Accuracy point system...AWESOME!! I love that idea. It won't go over with the kids...because they ulitimately want a marker that can shoot 100bps. And it won't go over with the fields...they make their money off those empty cases laying around after speedball practices. But wow is that a good idea!!

I had a similar thought earlier today when someone was bragging about how many kills they get. They were saying that they play aggressively and like to take chances...but it gets them like 10 kills a game (woodsball).

Now, first of all...kill totals and bps are usually directly related to fisherman stories in that they often are lies or overexaggerations. But even if he wasn't telling tall tales...the one important question I would have is...how many times did you survive the game? Most of these type players do get a fair amount of kills...but they usually don't survive till the end because they put themselves in harms way unnecessarily.

[tyrion2323]

Accuracy point system...AWESOME!!

i'm continually perplexed by the ideas that linger around these boards, and how otherwise rational people can subscribe to them. I only hope that you're joking. An accuracy point system? How would you even apply that? Is that to say that the backplayers, whose jobs include increased firepower for suppression and laning in order to decrease movement - should they be penalized because they are able to perform their jobs well?

You say that the reasons holding us back are that kids want to shoot fast guns, and that fields survive on paint sales. Well, you're partially right. Fields do survive on paint sales. Is that such a bad thing? Without fields, where could we play paintball? Where could we have well-groomed fields, referees, chronograph gear and tournaments? I'm sorry, but the idea of playing rebel-ball in the woods doesn't appeal to me.

Accuracy is only a part of the game, and especially with paintballs, accuracy doesn't always mean what people think it means.

[hitech]

I'm not saying that there is no movement in speedball. However, there is less of an emphasis on it. In a single game very few players make more than a couple moves. There are FAR fewer places to move to... Speedball is "all" about shooting. If you shoot very well you do fine in speedball even if you "move" very poorly. The reverse is not true.

[tyrion2323]

I'm not saying that there is no movement in speedball. However, there is less of an emphasis on it. In a single game very few players make more than a couple moves. There are FAR fewer places to move to... Speedball is "all" about shooting. If you shoot very well you do fine in speedball even if you "move" very poorly. The reverse is not true.

As I said earlier, if you want to define movement solely as the amount of space covered, then there's no argument. But I will absolutely argue that you're wrong with your assessment that speedballers don't have to move. That's simply not true, and this is reflected in the outcome of games. Teams with well coordinated movements win games more often than not. Sometimes staying in a bunker is the smartest move to make, but you will never find a team winning the NPPL or PSP events without moving from their primary bunkers.

[hitech]

Actuall,. I don't think we disagree all that much. For lack of a better phrase I would use the number of times a player moves as the measure of movement.

I am not trying to say that Speedballers do not move. Nor am I trying to say that movement is not at all important in speedball. I am saying that it is less important than shooting ability. Also, that movement is less Important in speedball than in woodsball. If you had two teams play each other. One team was great at shooting and poor at moving. The other team was great at moving and poor at shooting. If they played each other would you not agree that the first team would win most of the time?

Speedball, as it is played today on small fields is the firefight distilled out of the larger game. Given that, what was left out?

[etjoyride]

Hey yourself. Notice that in no way did I say what you're claiming I said. I'm saying that it's not inherently bad for parents to help their children out with sports gear. Listen, i know what it's like to have to buy my own paintball gear - i've been doing it for ten years. Reread my original statement, and then rethink yours.

Alright, i went back and re-read your statement..My mistake, you were right. My bad ;)

I can't believe this thread isstill open honestly.

[hipster]

actually movement is one of the keys to airball most teams that win are ones that not only play as a team but are able read the field good enough so that one will be able to make that all import run into to other side and eliminate a couple of key bunkers by "flanking" them -opening up the field so the rest of the team can in turn move up , if go into a game only pick one bunker and sit there you've already lost the game

you should have at least two moves in mind , work twords getting there and communicating one side ( say the "doritos")makes small moves and holds the field the other ( "snake side") makes bigger riskier ones and pushes the field

and thats where the true thinking and reading a field is key the wrong move or one to soon/late and you just lost ,

I play at fied that div 2,1 and pro's practice/play at and they all like mixing it up and playing against any one willing, even those like me who are novice, and have played some div 3, and let me tell you playing against a pro player is not about how much paint you shoot or how fast you gun is, thinking that way gets you gogged every time

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Mmmm, semantics....

/sigh

[Automaggot68]

Mmmm, semantics....

/sigh

Lol.

/roguefactor

[warbeak2099]

I'm not saying that there is no movement in speedball. However, there is less of an emphasis on it. In a single game very few players make more than a couple moves. There are FAR fewer places to move to... Speedball is "all" about shooting. If you shoot very well you do fine in speedball even if you "move" very poorly. The reverse is not true.

Uh no, if you move into a crappy bunker that's in a crappy position, you're pretty screwed. You have to know how, where, and when to move. For instance, instead of running in a striaght line towards a bunker off the break, it's better to run in an elliptical path towards the bunker. Instead of moving into a crappy, isolated bunker, it's a lot smarter to get into a position where you can be covered by your teammates, and where you can move to a better position as the game progresses.

[Gladiators21]

Each to his own I suppose...
The arguement comes down to who enjoy hiding, camoflauging themselves, playing long games with tons of people and for a lot "killing the enemy".
The others perfer their flashy guns, paint throwing, intense fast play, and just near the oppisite of what woodsballers like.

Im sure this has been said tons of times...I just felt like saying it again

[mobsterboy]

i know we arent supposed to say it, but i miss the old agd banners for x valve and ule bodies. The google banners are crap :ninja:

[Aslan]

i'm continually perplexed by the ideas that linger around these boards, and how otherwise rational people can subscribe to them. I only hope that you're joking. An accuracy point system? How would you even apply that?

Ahh! I'm so glad you asked. I call it, the "Galaga System"! Galaga is a game that people played when you were little. But that,s not important...it's just the name. So here's how it works. You have two differnet kinds of paintballs...one for each team (assuming two teams). Before the game, everyone goes up to this little machine and holds their hopper under it...the ref presses a button...out comes 200 paintballs. The ref writes down the players number...the player goes in. Then, after the game, the players dump their paintballs back into the machine and it counts them. Sort of like the machine that counts change at the bank. All you have to do is look at kills vs. paintballs used and you got an accuracy score. Maybe you give a certain bonus to the team that wins...just so a team can't shoot out one guy a claim a victory...and there ya go. That's just off the top of my head though.



Is that to say that the backplayers, whose jobs include increased firepower for suppression and laning in order to decrease movement - should they be penalized because they are able to perform their jobs well?

No...they should be penalized because they shot 1300 rounds and never hit anybody. You can call that suppression or laning...but it doesn't impress me. Have you ever considered that maybe the game would be imporved without that tactic? I'm not saying the tactic isn't effective...but wiping is effective... My point is, maybe the game would be better if those back players were forced to move around a little. :cheers:



You say that the reasons holding us back are that kids want to shoot fast guns, and that fields survive on paint sales. Well, you're partially right. Fields do survive on paint sales. Is that such a bad thing? Without fields, where could we play paintball? Where could we have well-groomed fields, referees, chronograph gear and tournaments? I'm sorry, but the idea of playing rebel-ball in the woods doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not anti-field...and I don't want to revive the old "paint costs too much" thread...but it is my opinion that fields can make money on reasonable paint sales and registration...the volume would be made up by having more players playing rather than more paint sold to fewer players.



Accuracy is only a part of the game, and especially with paintballs, accuracy doesn't always mean what people think it means.

What do people "think it means?" I think it means you walk on a small airball field with a hopper...and you and your team walk off with balls still left in their hopper and the other team eliminated. Or maybe it means "one shot, one kill"...who knows? But I'd rather strive for accuracy than bps...I think it's more fun and better for the sport in the long run.

[tyrion2323]

Ahh! I'm so glad you asked. I call it, the "Galaga System"! Galaga is a game that people played when you were little. But that,s not important...it's just the name. So here's how it works. You have two differnet kinds of paintballs...one for each team (assuming two teams). Before the game, everyone goes up to this little machine and holds their hopper under it...the ref presses a button...out comes 200 paintballs. The ref writes down the players number...the player goes in. Then, after the game, the players dump their paintballs back into the machine and it counts them. Sort of like the machine that counts change at the bank. All you have to do is look at kills vs. paintballs used and you got an accuracy score. Maybe you give a certain bonus to the team that wins...just so a team can't shoot out one guy a claim a victory...and there ya go. That's just off the top of my head though.

No...they should be penalized because they shot 1300 rounds and never hit anybody. You can call that suppression or laning...but it doesn't impress me. Have you ever considered that maybe the game would be imporved without that tactic? I'm not saying the tactic isn't effective...but wiping is effective... My point is, maybe the game would be better if those back players were forced to move around a little. :cheers:


That plan is unsustainable for several reasons. As sure as I am that speedballs would be perfectly happy to wait in line before and after the game to collect and deposit their designated paint loads, I'm sure there must be a FEW reasons that this plan is ridonkulous. Here are just a few, "off the top of my head"

- First of all, there's the sheer time factor. Tournaments take long enough as it is, but add in a potential 3+ minutes of pre-game paint distribution and 5+ minutes of post-game calculations, and you're talking a 10 minute game minimum (including an average 2 minute game).

- Secondly, how do paint sponsors react to this? And what happens when two teams sponsored by the same paint company play head-to-head? Suddenly there's a burden not only on the players, but on the sponsors to create many different fill lines in order to compensate for all possible match-ups.

-Again, you're missing the point of a backman. A backman isn't meant to 'snipe' and use 'one-shot, one-kill' tactics. That just isn't the way the game is played, nor does it make sense in modern tournament paintball. More than likely, a backman is using his stream of paint and dominance on the field in order to not only suppress opponents and protect zones, but also to force opponents to make moves that they don't want, look out alternative sides of their bunkers, and depreciate their opponents' field awareness. For this reason, accuracy is measured not in the amount of balls shot, but in the effectiveness of hte game plan. If a backman is able to do these things, no matter how much paint he does or doesn't use, he is an effective backman. This takes WAY more talent than simply 'spraying and praying,' as it involves coordination, communication, confidence, field awareness, tectical zoning, and many other skills that non-tournament players rarely develop in the sense that tournament players do. It doesn't have to 'impress you' in order to be a legitimate and effective form of play. And believe it or not, but wiping and cheating both find their origins in woodsball and even stock class paintball.

- In terms of 'improvement' (since you mention it several times). I urge you to reconsider your idea of improvement. What YOU want is not necessarily improvement. Improvement can only be measured on an individual, subjective scale. Many people would say that faster guns and more stable equipment are improvements, and then some detest these progressions. And furthermore, since you seem to enjoy military allusions (one-shot-one-kill, and accuracy) I would urge you to take a look at modern warfare tactics. Suppression is HUGE in urban warfare, and is used to ensure safe movement and placement of troops on the battlefield. In a sense, speedball is simply the urban incarnation of paintball, and will develop similarly to urban combat, including all of the 'upgrades' or 'improvements' that come with it.



I'm not anti-field...and I don't want to revive the old "paint costs too much" thread...but it is my opinion that fields can make money on reasonable paint sales and registration...the volume would be made up by having more players playing rather than more paint sold to fewer players.
Your comment is unsubstantiated. Unless you can provide real evidence that this will happen, and that the game would be accepted by speedballers, then the argument over what fields should and shouldn't do is up to the field owners. What I do know, from working and playing at several fields, is that paint makes up the bulk of profits. Rental gear only goes so far in terms of profits, and entrance fees discourage players from frequenting fields.



What do people "think it means?" I think it means you walk on a small airball field with a hopper...and you and your team walk off with balls still left in their hopper and the other team eliminated. Or maybe it means "one shot, one kill"...who knows? But I'd rather strive for accuracy than bps...I think it's more fun and better for the sport in the long run.

I think that people mistake pure accuracy for talent. I can put shot after shot on top of each other from the end of the field, if need be, but that certainly isn't going to win the game. The added factors that paint frequently bounces or doesn't break, along with the relatively slow speed of paintballs means that accuracy in its traditional sense doesn't work on its own. And who's to say that backmen who shoot 1300 balls per game aren't accurate? Are they hitting their targets and accomplishing their goals? many are. Placing a stream on top of itself on a bunker or in a zone or lane is perfectly representative of accuracy in the context of airball and speedball.


The problem with saying that teams should walk off the field with remaining paint in their hoppers is that you're pushing your ideal vision of paintball onto the rest of us, and then saying that it's for the best, or at least would be better for the sport in the long run. Again, I ask for proof of that statement. What designates something being better or worse for the sport? I don't personally see military-style paintball as being particularly 'good' for the sport, considering that it conjurs up images of rednecks, ex-military and war-wackos 'playing war' in the middle of the woods; however, that doesn't mean I criticize woodsball and try to reform how it's played. It doesn't even sound like you care to play speedball, especially not tournament speedball, so why try to change how it's played right now? Remember, speedball evolved out of the woods. It marks a logical progression for people who want fast-paced paintball. Even Tom Kaye strived for speed, creating the response-trigger, bringing constant-air into the game, introducing the 6-Pak stock class changer, bringing the Warp feed (at the time paintball's fastest loader), and even bringing into existence Hybrid mode on his emags and xmags. People naturally lean towards speed, even in the 'golden old days' that so many people on these boards talk about.

The end result is that this is never going to make it beyond this forum. Paintball is a great game, no matter the type or style that you play. There will always be haters and complainers who want to change paintball into their own vision of what's good and bad. The bottom line is that we all need to pursue our own interests within the game. Want airball without the laning? Try stock class paintball. It's making quite the comeback. Want to dress up in camouflage and play war? That can be done as well. For those who want speedball-style tournament paintball, this is found in the NPPL, NEPL, PSP, CFOA and other leagues like this.

[Lohman446]

Accuracy is overrated

Last year in the finals at OGD I came up on a move that was unseen, with two players that made perfect targets, I put a couple balls on each, moving my target quickly before I had verified breaks. It was a mistake, in that the paint was extremely bouncey, and neither broke. I lost the advantage of surprise and if I had to put it down to a single error that cost Team AO first place I would put it on that single error.

Two weeks ago at tournament I made a move, with strong support from a back tape player, that put me lateral to two opposing players, neither of which knew I was there. When I came up I put shots on the first one until I had seen multiple breaks before switching targets and repeating on the second. In an accuracy system I would have penalized for it - the only difference in the two scenarios was the amount of paint used... not even accuracy.
My backplayer in this case who made the move possible by keeping someone from coming out one side of a bunker, would have been penalized, and without him I could have never made the move.

There are often lanes of paint in the air for a reason other than elimination... its what allows the strategy of speedball. I find it ironic that the same people who complain about the mass of paint in the air are often the same people who question if there is strategy involved.

[Aslan]

That plan is unsustainable for several reasons...

I'm sure players could adjust to an extra 3 minutes.



-Again, you're missing the point of a backman.

No I'm not. I understand their effectiveness...which I said like 3 times...soI'll say it again...in the standard way speedball is played...the backman is effective. My point was "what if" the backman couldn't do that? People play airball with pumps, stock class...does the backman sit back there emptying pod after pod? "What if"...the backman had limited ammo and needed to move...that's all I was saying.



In terms of 'improvement' (since you mention it several times). I urge you to reconsider your idea of improvement. What YOU want is not necessarily improvement. Improvement can only be measured on an individual, subjective scale. Many people would say that faster guns and more stable equipment are improvements, and then some detest these progressions.

Don't worry...my posting an idea on this forum, believe it or not, is not an automatic rule change to any paintball field or league. I know I'm brilliant and everything...but believe it or not...some people don't think so :rolleyes: and I've not yet been offered the position of "King of Paintball" so I don't "yet" have the ability to make my rule changes. I'll let ya know when I get promoted...you can cry then. :cry: :cry:



Your comment is unsubstantiated. Unless you can provide real evidence that this will happen, and that the game would be accepted by speedballers, then the argument over what fields should and shouldn't do is up to the field owners. What I do know, from working and playing at several fields, is that paint makes up the bulk of profits. Rental gear only goes so far in terms of profits, and entrance fees discourage players from frequenting fields.


Yup...I certainly can provide proof...let me get my crystal ball...I had it here somewhere... I can't find it, why don't you get out yours and show me how it wouldn't work? Suddenly every post must be substatiated? Holy Poo! Do owl pictures and smiles :) count towards substantiation? Is there a way to attach an Excel sheet to the post...because I have all the numbers in an Access database...could I download em directly? I'll check into that...NOT. :rolleyes: What I do know from playing at several fields is that the biggest complaints involve refs and paint prices. Nobody cares if their field fee goes from $15 a day to $20 a day. But when their forced to buy the same paint for $80 that they can buy online for $45... :eek: ...that bugs em a little. Like I said, I'm not getting into that war...last time I did Lohman pulled out his field accounting ninja tactics and tried to beat me to death...it was not pretty :( ;) but I made my point there and it's the same as here...I tend to choose a BYOP field over a FPO field whenever possible. I will play an FPO field if it's part of an event or if they have low gate fees and free all-day air...but FPO is definitely a big negative for me and the people I play with....my opinion...not Lohman's...apparently not yours...whatever.

too long...

[Aslan]

I don't personally see military-style paintball as being particularly 'good' for the sport, considering that it conjurs up images of rednecks, ex-military and war-wackos 'playing war' in the middle of the woods; however, that doesn't mean I criticize woodsball and try to reform how it's played. It doesn't even sound like you care to play speedball, especially not tournament speedball, so why try to change how it's played right now?

Whatever...not entering that flame war-O-Rama...I'll just say that the bulk of paintball players play woodsball...and the people that get offended by it...well, I haven't met any. I thnk that's a myth personally...or maybe some anti-paintball parent said that...I don't know. To answer your question, personally, I'd like to see it changed for one reason and one reason only. If it was played a little different, with less emphasis on bps...I think it would attract more players (unsubstantiated..still waiting for the data on that :rolleyes: ). As an example, I'll use myself. I would love to play airball...and have. If my friends weren't lame...I might even considering getting a little 3-man team together. But if in doing so, I need to make a $2000 investment in equipment and use 16 cases of paint per tourney...it becomes highly unrealistic...for me and for lots of others. Would we love to get out on the field and compete? Sure. But when novice tournaments (and beginner tournaments) are dominated by high end equipment with ROF that use up cases and cases of paint...it becomes difficult for many players to enter that scene...which could be a HUGE growth area for the sport because airball is so much more convenient to set-up than maintaining woodsball fields. That's my opinion anyways.



Paintball is a great game, no matter the type or style that you play. There will always be haters and complainers who want to change paintball into their own vision of what's good and bad. The bottom line is that we all need to pursue our own interests within the game. Want airball without the laning? Try stock class paintball. It's making quite the comeback. Want to dress up in camouflage and play war? That can be done as well. For those who want speedball-style tournament paintball, this is found in the NPPL, NEPL, PSP, CFOA and other leagues like this.

:cheers: We can agree on that. I'll notify the various leagues and tell them not to go through with the changes I've talked about on this forum. :cheers:

[Lohman446]

Just for the record, you want to see annoyed I was annoyed at FPO IAO at $80 a case for cheap paint (or whatever it was). I'm ok with FPO at a reasonable price, but when fields take advantage of it, well I tend not to play there. Ok, face it, I only play at one field except for tournments, and I have no problems with things that are done there. As it is, I have a hard time empathising with those who have problems where they play.

[Aslan]

Accuracy is overrated

There are often lanes of paint in the air for a reason other than elimination... its what allows the strategy of speedball. I find it ironic that the same people who complain about the mass of paint in the air are often the same people who question if there is strategy involved.

Again..."what if" there weren't lanes of paint and the backmen moved around more...couldn't that be at least "interesting?

And accuracy is important. Believe me, I've played some games with some pretty BAD paint...and it flew everywhere...including into the backs of my teammates heads ( :mad: shouldn't have been stading there :ninja: ) You're telling me that as long as I can maintain a nice 20bps stream from my backmen...it's all good?

In you example, you made two good shots...in one, there was bounce...in the other there wasn't...that's not an accuracy issue...that's a bounce issue. And it's too bad...but it happens. Next time maybe you put 4 into him rather than 2 or make sure they broke first before moving. But to say that it would have been better if you'd have missed him completely... don't get that. THe mistake seemed to be you moving on before verifying breaks...not accuracy.

[Lohman446]

Again..."what if" there weren't lanes of paint and the backmen moved around more...couldn't that be at least "interesting?

And accuracy is important. Believe me, I've played some games with some pretty BAD paint...and it flew everywhere...including into the backs of my teammates heads ( :mad: shouldn't have been stading there :ninja: ) You're telling me that as long as I can maintain a nice 20bps stream from my backmen...it's all good?

In you example, you made two good shots...in one, there was bounce...in the other there wasn't...that's not an accuracy issue...that's a bounce issue. And it's too bad...but it happens. Next time maybe you put 4 into him rather than 2 or make sure they broke first before moving. But to say that it would have been better if you'd have missed him completely... don't get that. THe mistake seemed to be you moving on before verifying breaks...not accuracy.


Had I thrown a stream, it would not have been an issue. And no, let me rephrase that from accuracy. The ability to put paint on an opposing player is overrated. I recall one time crawling under a stream my backplayer left out, likely a good two inches above my head to bunker a very good player. Yes, I scored the elimination, but it was his paint that made it possible :) Different strategy...

[Aslan]

Just for the record, you want to see annoyed I was annoyed at FPO IAO at $80 a case for cheap paint (or whatever it was). I'm ok with FPO at a reasonable price, but when fields take advantage of it, well I tend not to play there. Ok, face it, I only play at one field except for tournments, and I have no problems with things that are done there. As it is, I have a hard time empathising with those who have problems where they play.

Agreed, I guess. Like I said, if a field becomes FPO...it's a "factor" in my decision making process. So is quality of refs...so is field quality...so is admission fee...so is air cost...so is distance to travel...and I'll throw in another one...quality of other players. Not "quality" in the sense that they are good at paintball or bad at it...but quality meaning they don't cheat, swear constantly, yell at everyone, etc...

Now, some people aren't as fortunate as I am and they don't have 21 fields scattered within 100 miles of them :clap: ...some only have one :( and for them, their field going towards a policy they don't like is an issue that they unfortunately have to continue to deal with and can't just go somewhere else.

With all that said...I primarily play at an FPO field...but it's high quality (field and refs), it's got a fair admission price, and it has free all day air...and it's close to my buddy's house and he doesn't like to drive a long way to play. Do I think going FPO hurt them in attendence...yes, almost certainly...their big game numbers were down last year...and there were some nice weekends (nice weather) where I really didn't see very many people playing there. But I think the numbers are back up now...and as long as they have free all-day air...I'll consider to frequent them. But...I'll try other fields as well...maybe I'll find a field that's even better with a BYOP policy... :bounce:

[tyrion2323]

Aslan, no amount of smily faces and cry-faces can change the fact that your statements about what's better and worse for paintball are opinion and unsubstantiated. I'm not sure how you mean them, but I take them to be glib and condescending, and I certainly don't react positively to them. Do I require substantiation for everything? No. But if you make a statement, ESPECIALLY about something being 'better' or an 'improvement,' you should have a reason to back it up. That doesn't mean you need excel spreadsheets (I'm sure that, because you're obviously so much older than I am, you might need someone so "young' as me to help attach it for you :wow: *)

I agree with you that these alternatives certainly would change the way the game is played. But they already exist. There is stock class airball, mech only airball, even hopper-only airball. What I disagree with is the assumption in your posts about accuracy and what backmen 'should be penalized' for. These are simply not my views, nor are they the views of (i venture with this statement) most airballers.

Lohman said it perfectly when he stated:

Had I thrown a stream, it would not have been an issue. And no, let me rephrase that from accuracy. The ability to put paint on an opposing player is overrated. I recall one time crawling under a stream my backplayer left out, likely a good two inches above my head to bunker a very good player. Yes, I scored the elimination, but it was his paint that made it possible Different strategy...

When I read about tactics like this, and when I partake in them, I simply am awed at the coordination and tactics that people can come up with. For me, great paintball is played by a team of players who move and work together. Whether they one-ball the other team or lay down streams of paint becomes a null point to me, as long as there is true synergy and collaboration. If I saw a pump team destroy an electro team because of tactics, I imagine that it would be one of the most beautiful possible paintball scenarios ever. The emphasis on BPS means little to me, because I see it as simply another part of the game. I use it as a tool, but I certainly don't let (or condone letting) it stand in as a substitution for tactics and skill.

I think that if we are going to talk about bettering paintball, let's look not toward the bps or run-throughs or fast guns, but simply to the attitudes being sported by many current players. I don't mind getting lit up by a friend, but I friggin HATE getting lit up by a cocky little bastard. But that's just another issue for another day.

*this is my attempt to lighten the mood.

[Dangle911]

Airball can be quite expensive if played that way. But I always say:

Smart movement and good snap shooting skills > firepower.

Oh and decent aim ;)

[mobsterboy]

really, i just thought it was spraying the field and praying that your daddy will pay for your paint and buy the story about your "old gun"($1200 dm5) not working right and your "new gun"(DM Fiddy) should be paid for by him

ok, well in all honesty, us backmen can hold our own. There are certain games where i've(me, the 6 foot 3 backplayer) moved more aggressively than my frontmen

[Aslan]

Aslan, no amount of smily faces and cry-faces can change the fact that your statements about what's better and worse for paintball are opinion and unsubstantiated.
:cuss: :mad: :bounce: :mad: :cuss: How dare you doubt the power of the smiley/cryin faces!!! :ninja: Yes, they are opinion...for now...but soon...they will be law...and you will bow down before me...as I secretly rule the world... :tard:


I agree with you that these alternatives certainly would change the way the game is played. But they already exist. There is stock class airball, mech only airball, even hopper-only airball.
:confused: Really...never seen it before. Not saying it doesn't, just never seen it in my area. :bounce:

continued...

[Aslan]

Lohman said it perfectly when he stated:
That Lohman....always saying things perfectly...trying to impress everybody with his superior intelect. :mad: :spit_take

You think that the game would be bettered by 60bps markers, wiping out the woods and inflating fields, and making super duper great paint at $160/case.

I think paintballing would be better if we deflated the bunkers, grew more woods, capped all markers at 15bps, and have all fields go to BYOP policies where suppliers compete for customers with a combimation of quality and price. Of matter of fact...one cool rule I just thought up...in order to buy an electronic marker...you must play in 5 sanctioned tournaments...that would keep newbs from buying firepower as a crutch for lack of game. Not really possible in the internet era though...they'd find electros online...dang technology!!! :cuss:

Whatever...can we just agree to disagree? I'm so sick of your pro-speedball, pro-substantiation, pro-Lohman, 5000 word posts (that I can't really quote without having to post twice!!)...that I want to run myself over with my car.

[Dangle911]

You think that the game would be bettered by 60bps markers, wiping out the woods and inflating fields, and making super duper great paint at $160/case.

I think paintballing would be better if we deflated the bunkers, grew more woods, capped all markers at 15bps, and have all fields go to BYOP policies where suppliers compete for customers with a combimation of quality and price.

I'm with ya there 100%. I use pumps and cockers (Closed bolt. Barrel matching is crucial.) and last week I went out to buy a box of the "best" paintballs (X-Ball Gold) and the stuff is decent but every 3rd ball or so is a roll out or too big. This is average quality paint at best. It's almost impossible to get a good barrel match with even the best paint these days. All the fields around here are FPO and they sell X-ball Bronze for the most part. Very small, inconsistant paint. For the price I pay, $10 Canadian /100, it should be a lot better. I would DIE for a BYOP Paint field. It would be a start in the right direction. But this is all directly related to how almost everything in paintball is related to speedball and ROF. So quantity over quality it seems. Of course I haven't tried ALL the paintball brands, but I've tested the waters with almost everything local (some brands imported from the states).

Like you said Aslan, if fields turned more into BYOP and paintball makers started to produce quality paintballs...well I think you'd see a lot more rec players, a lot less barrel kits, and a whole lot happier paintballers. I think paintball in general would be healthier. The whole IN YO FACE I can shoot 15bps speedball scene would die maybe, but I wouldn't care really. It seems us rec paintballers are being pushed into the speedball game. But I won't budge.

[tyrion2323]

You think that the game would be bettered by 60bps markers, wiping out the woods and inflating fields, and making super duper great paint at $160/case.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I never said that, nor is it reprentative of my thoughts at all...

Obviously this is going nowhere.

[Toll]

You just have to think where the idea of laying a lane down came from. At first I'm sure the backman managed to play like you're talking about, not just flinging paint in the direction...Then the idea came to fling paint and it's been working out better.

A hit is a hit. If you hit your target with one ball or put 15 where he's running, it doesnt matter because he's still out.


My favorite example being a group of woodsballers that walked onto the speedball feild, because they were bored. They whined and *****ed about how the speedball "kids" were just inaccurate but they put up a lot of paint, and didn't really know how to shoot or play paintball...I think they managed over the series of 3 games to shoot one or two "kids" out. They ofcourse come and whine to me (ref) about it and make all sorts of excuses because it pisses them off that in their heads they can shoot "better" and still be beaten.

Here's the question : If they are winning, does that not make their way superior? Being able to 1shot some one off of the break is a fun little thing to do, but it's purely for bragging rights. "oh well I can hit that guy on the run from 100 feet away every time" doesn't count for crap if you are out.


If saying you can hit that guy at 200 feet while he's running makes you feel better, great- good on you, doesn't matter much if you're out because your one shot missed and 29/30 of his didnt



But, that's just my take on it.

[Aslan]

A hit is a hit. If you hit your target with one ball or put 15 where he's running, it doesnt matter because he's still out.

Here's the question : If they are winning, does that not make their way superior? Being able to 1shot some one off of the break is a fun little thing to do, but it's purely for bragging rights. "oh well I can hit that guy on the run from 100 feet away every time" doesn't count for crap if you are out.

But, that's just my take on it.

So I guess you're saying paintball is all about ROF...bps...skill means nothing...it's just "bragging rights". :eek: :hail: And at that point...if you're right and that's all paintball has become...it will no longer be a sport. Sports (football, basketball, baseball, hockey, etc...) have little to do with equipment...it's all about skill. If all paintball has become is a race for the next best marker, it's become Nascar...where there's 12 teams that can afford to play...that will be too bad. :cry: :ninja:

[tyrion2323]

So I guess you're saying paintball is all about ROF...bps...skill means nothing...it's just "bragging rights". :eek: :hail: And at that point...if you're right and that's all paintball has become...it will no longer be a sport. Sports (football, basketball, baseball, hockey, etc...) have little to do with equipment...it's all about skill. If all paintball has become is a race for the next best marker, it's become Nascar...where there's 12 teams that can afford to play...that will be too bad. :cry: :ninja:

Aslan, again, you're putting words into people's mouths.

NOBODY has said that ROF is the only thing that matters here. Nobody has said that paintball is all about equipment. In fact, quite the opposite has been said.

Seriously, it's like you don't even read the posts before responding.

[hipster]

the abilaty to "read" a field and to keep comuncating to the team are way more important than ROF In my opinion

just because can shoot alot of paint does not mean you are going to eliminate any one
and unless you know where to put that stream of paint it does do any one any good

as far as aim and skill go you still luck no matter what any one says, even the best players and teams can be beat with a little luck

[Toll]

If you want to put it that way, sure. Professional paintball will indeed be dominated by equiptment because they are a required point of the game and they haven't been standardized. In baseball you can be a better player because you can hit a ball farther with a given bat, farther than some one else with a similar bat. Now if I was allowed to use a better bat I'd out do you with less skill. So why would I use a lower level of bat when I am looking to win and get my money and go home.


If they all have a relatively equal level of skill, equipment will infact be the deciding factor. If you get shot out by some one throwing out 50 rounds and at the same time you hit him with one in the face, you are out. Are you going to go say that "well I'm better because I got him out with one"...You're both out. What does it matter? Hitting some one's foot sticking 1/2 inch out of a bunker is ofcourse a different matter.

if you are playing for fun/bragging rights, you can claim accuracy over a few beers with your buddies. They'll contemplate it and talk bout the skill involved in it.

If you are playing a tournament and you play the "well I was more accurate" it doesn't matter, it's still one in the loss chart. People will laugh at you because you are making excuses.


I'm not saying that you can be innaccurate in tournies and win. I'm saying that firing less for the sake of saying you are accurate will lead you to losing by sheer number.

[sbpyro]

For the love of paintball please let this thread die already oh wait am I contributing to the problem.

First off I'm more of a woodsball player cuz that is what I enjoy doing.
But on occasion I do play speedball.
The common thing I find is a lot of woodsball players are not use to receiving what they consider a stream of paint. But it is all part of the game. When I play woodsball it is to a more spread out situations but you have someone provide cover and you move. Speedball is the same thing in more compact playing field. Laning in crucial whether in woodsball or speedball.
I've played in a small outdoorfield where off the break our backplayers took out 4 to 5 players by laning.
I played a game of speed ball for my buddies bachelor party and it end being the wedding party (3 of us) versus the rest of the group (7) on the break I laned out 2 guys making it a 3 on 5 (actually it was a 2 on 5 since the groom was out of air). Proceeded from the back corner to the snake and picked off one of the back players before a lucky shot got me. (lucky not because he got me buy the shot went through the hole (for adjusting the lpr) of the shroud for my cocker).

The only thing that I really think that blows in paintball right now is the whole attitude of some of the new players (both speedball and woodsball). Cheating, and attitude problems have no place for this sport i remember the sportsmanship aspect of the game and long for those days.

[Aslan]

Aslan, again, you're putting words into people's mouths.

NOBODY has said that ROF is the only thing that matters here. Nobody has said that paintball is all about equipment. In fact, quite the opposite has been said.

Seriously, it's like you don't even read the posts before responding.

What's annoying about this topic is two-fold:

1) It really doesn't matter how many people post that speedball is dependent more on streams of paint and ROF...as soon as you turn around and say, "So speedball is about equipment then?"...everybody cries foul. It's just weird because if you feel that the game is so dependent on streams and ROF...why not just admit it instead of claiming that ROF tactics are awesome and then (when cornered) turning around and saying, "No...it's not about ROF at all...it's all skill...I never said it was all about the marker...you misread my post!" :ninja:

2) Why is it that whenever there's a poll on this topic (skill vs physical ability vs equipment), and there have been like 200 of them, the poll always comes out 60-70% skill, 20-30% equipment, and 10% physical ability. Yet there seem to still be so many people that deep down in their hearts don't really feel that way? Is it because they don't want to admit that they have less "skill" and rely on their marker? I mean, from what I've learned in this thread, maybe ROF is a legitimate way to play. If you lay down 8 pods of paint...and never hit anything...and shooting any slower than 20bps would cause your team to lose...then maybe that is an acceptable way to win. And if it is, and that were my job, I would just come out and say, "hey, the more bps I get, the better I am...I don't really move very much...it's pretty much all about communicating with teammates and my marker's ability." I don't think there's "shame" in that statement...it's just an honest statement.

An don't take that the wrong way...I'm not trying to say that speedball is for players with no skill...if it weren't for airball I would have never learned to snapshoot...I'm just saying that us woodsballers get crucified on nearly every forum (except specops) and told that the only reason we play in the woods and not in tourneys and the only reason we use mech guns and wear camo is because we don't have the "skills" to compete at a higher level. Yet, what it seems like is:

1) Most woodsballers, like myself, just like woodsball better...so that's what they play.
2) Alot of woodsballers just don't feel like spending thousands on a marker set-up and hundreds of dollars a day on paint to acheive the ROF necessary for success in speedball. There are exceptions...the milsim crowd putting a grand into upgrades that do nothing except make their "marker" look like a "gun"...but that's a small percentage of the woodsball contingency.

[hipster]

1 If you like woods ball that good
2 most average airball players don't spend that much on the guns there are plenty of ions spiders and old cheap angels and matrix's on the fields
most air ballers anly use a case of paint on a nomal day, way back in the day when i played wood ball I still used a case of paint
in a tourny you might use a lot of paint , but woods ballers use a lot at the big events also

so paint is all relitive to the way you play and the amount of time you spend on the field woods or air ball makes no diff

the same average number who spend for the latest and greatest is the average number that spends to upgrade the woods guns


its all good as long as its paintball if anything speedball and airball put paintall back on the map and in doing so also helped others find woodsball because most airball fields have a woods feild in the back for those that are new to also try ( not the other way around )